View Full Version : Don't even know where to begin...
I will keep it simple...I was blindsided and I think I am headed towards a divorce. I haven't processed it because I am trying to just get through life right now. With a Master's program, a kiddo and just trying to breathe, it hit me, full force yesterday. Now, I know this is a HUGE moment in my life but honestly, there is some relief there. Let me explain...
Been married almost 12 years...for most of that, I tried to let a LOT of stuff go in my marriage. We are lucky as neither one of us cheated or did anything like that, no violence or anything, no money issues, other than normal we don't have enough but we made it work issues, we are far from perfect but I thought we were working on it..like a marriage should be..or I thought it should be.
So...what brought this on? Well one, I lost my mind this week. I sure did. Y'all must understand I have been through 14 major surgeries with my husband...all the time working full time, caring for a child and have ZERO help..nadda.zilch. I was worn out this week. I started a new semester of school and came home to dog throw up, a filthy kitchen and I had asked him to please help me put our son's furniture together and it was still sitting there in the box. He was sleeping. Now I understand surgery and recovery but honestly, I think he takes advantage. Now I sound like a mean person, I know BUT the past 5-6 surgeries, he has dragged the recovery out. Honestly, I know..mean woman...it's so hard to explain...but he is up on 2 feet and walking, with a limp and I understand it hurts but he is not compliant with his doc. He never had been. This is a major source of contention for me. I cannot do EVERYTHING and be responsible for the part of his recoveries that are HIS personal doing. I can't make him do his PT...I can't make him eat the right things...I can serve dinner but what he eats in between...I cannot control...I cannot hold his hand and do his PT for him..He is supposed to do an hour a day..that hour is precious to me too..and remember..this is over 14 surgeries...always not being compliant and at this point, I gave up 4 surgeries ago. I sound like a nag....and also, understand, I had 2 major surgeries myself and was up and running in the time the doc recommended and continued to better my health. I know,,,I shouldn't compare..but at this point..it's sheer laziness
So...and sorry if this all over the place...just trying to write here....so coming home to a mess and feeling like I am roommate and not a wife just grated on my nerves this week.
Friday, I got up, did some errands, did my normal morning routine, homework and organized a closet. I left to go get groceries at 10 and came back by noon and he was still sleeping...and the house was a mess from him. He had gotten up, made breakfast, walked past the dog yak and went back to bed. Oh..and he didn't bother to take out the recycling..which he told me he would..so we missed this week..and it's full and I need it for the boxes from the furniture that is now put together by me..why? Because my son's room need to be complete and otherwise, it will just sit there.
So..I don't know..even where to go with this all...it's just been frustrating but now I am the bad, nagging wife. I give up!!! I am not perfect but for the love of doughnuts I have given 12 years, 11 of which were surgery, to him and now I am treated like crap. I went to take a bath tonight...quietly..no dogs..peace..he comes barreling in and just has to do something in the bathroom at that moment..I swear he is vicious like this...please tell me I am not crazy. He told me I am being mean and he can't do anything right...that it's all my fault...I am broken hearted, my head hurts and I honestly can't think straight...:confused::confused::confused::confused ::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused : :(
Simplemind
6-11-16, 10:41pm
First...... You are heard. It doesn't help to know that others have been in your shoes but I want you to know that anybody in your shoes will not judge you. It is HARD to be a caregiver for years even if the person is fully participating in their recovery and doing their best to help out at home. Without that effort it puts a huge burden on you physically and emotionally. It sounds like this blow out is long over due.
Are you able to stand your ground and ask for what you need?
Thanks Simplemind. I appreciate it.
I do stand my ground and that might be part of it now. I have mentioned I have really been spending a good part of my time that I do have to work on myself. I really like myself--far from perfect but I am not a mean, conniving person. I am very giving and loving and actually enjoy helping people. But there is helping and then being taken advantage of.
I don't know how to be any clearer with I need help..as in would you please put the furniture together so I can finish DS's room..can you please take the recycle out so I don't have to get up at 5 and do it...etc...I don't just say I need help..because it really does not get done. But the thing is, he knows I need help..I have asked multiple, multiple, multiple times. I have left notes...texts...again I don't want to be a nag..but what the heck else am I supposed to do? When I confront him, because I keep it all in and then I blow up (though I am getting better but still working on it) he just blank stares at me and then it's like it never happened. I ask him what are his thoughts and he says nothing...ugh..I don't know what else to do. :(
Oh honey, I get it, I get it in a deep way. I have been divorced for a long time but this brought back memories. You can only be the support system and get drained for so long. You are okay being exhausted, and you are okay for trying. I had this with my ex until I was just too tired, and no counselor was willing to help me get agreements fulfilled. There was nothing left to work with. Then my oldest was asked to move out for the same reasons, sheer exhaustion with someone else looking on makes a breaking point.
I had some relatives on my ex's side who got divorced because of the strain of the husbands non-compliance with his brittle diabetic condition. I am sure there was more, but it is hard to watch that and stick in there. It kinda turns you more into caregiver/mommy than a spouse and partner. Not sure if that how it feels to you,
I won't say that you are totally destined for one way or another, things happen either way, but you won't get any judgement here.
Kinda off to the side, I trained as a professional mediator and have done about 50 hours of volunteer work so far. I look back at my marriage and I think that mediation would have worked better for many of our issues. I just wanted him to keep his word, and counselors are trained differently. There is value to counseling, however there are times I think the stronger process of mediation is warranted.
Thank you Zoe Girl. I am sitting here and everyone is in bed. I just finished up my homework and I am putting down how I envision my future life..even a year or so from now. I honestly don't have the fight left in me. I feel HORRIBLE for DS but a happy, functioning mama is necessary.
I am figuring out how much time I spend doing things just for him....making sure he is comfortable..has HIS stuff...and now it's gotten to a point, like you said, that I a mommy to another kid. Maybe I am being overly sensitive but how would you feel if you go out of your way to purchase something for your partner/spouse/friend and they scoff at it? It's happened many times.
It's small things with me...you dirty a cup, you pick it up and clean it. That goes far with me. I don't think that's being demanding.
So I sit here. writing a list of what I would need to live..and I mean LIVE..life fully..without worry and honestly, my list is small of the "stuff" I would need. Kinda excited about small and simple.
Good thing is, house is all done up nice right now, so selling won't be an issue. +1???
Oh and yes, I am not a professional care giver. I am a spouse..a human..a woman..a wife...there is only so much one person can do, especially when I have not had one ounce of help all this time. And trying to pass the buck to my son is not gonna work with me..he is 10..let him be 10.
I am figuring out how much time I spend doing things just for him....making sure he is comfortable..has HIS stuff...and now it's gotten to a point, like you said, that I a mommy to another kid. Maybe I am being overly sensitive but how would you feel if you go out of your way to purchase something for your partner/spouse/friend and they scoff at it? It's happened many times.
Yes, i have had that happen many times. Simple things like buying the wrong chocolate (certain percentage of cacao was required). After 6 months I realized I was not having anxiety just grocery shopping.
Yes, i have had that happen many times. Simple things like buying the wrong chocolate (certain percentage of cacao was required). After 6 months I realized I was not having anxiety just grocery shopping.
Oh anxiety!! HELLO!! I have generalized anxiety and I am noticing it all comes from having to deal with BS things that I don't even start or have anything to do with it but it gets thrown at me. When I am really paying attention to myself, I am calm and collected. I could clean the whole house, put up all new groceries, dog poo cleaned up, trash out, freshly washed and makeup and hair done and he will find something or make a comment that is just..not mean..but not nice..yes..I am going to get insane with picking on all the things that drive me nuts but it's like my eyes just were lasiked and I can see now!!!
Williamsmith
6-11-16, 11:41pm
If you don't mind me asking, in general what kind of issue causes one to have 14 surgeries?
Williamsmith--no problem...Military injuries and 2 failed surgeries that had to be corrected and then the recent bike accident...which is another source of issues...
Ok..so he rides a bike as a cop..ok..I get it..cool..you like it..but after this accident he wants to get back on the bike..I was like can you not think of your family..he gives me all this crap about vehicle accidents among police officers...it's like he really does not care about US..think of US..not yourself..ya know?
Oh and y'all..really any advice, comments, anecdotes, etc...I feel like being able to write this out helps in some way. Thanks.
mschrisgo2
6-12-16, 1:09am
Wonder if he has PTSD? Certainly sounds like at least depression, and the lashing out at you is part of that...
Gosh, I'd have been out of there already. My marriage, long ago, without surgeries, just no work and no help, and all sleep and play for him, only lasted 4 years before I threw him out. He was totally incapable of being a grownup. Like you, my list was small, and his "needs" were huge and I was just worn out from being the only responsible adult in the house. Everything was always my "fault." Not.
He quit yet another job, and I told him to get out until he brought home a paycheck, he said, Fine, I'm not coming back, and I said, Wonderful!! And my life was so much easier, even working full time with a child less than a year old. I have Never regretted that decision.
All that just to let you know I've been close to where you are, divorced, and lived happily ever after :)
Gardenarian
6-12-16, 3:06am
Wow, you are really a great writer! Seriously, I could totally see your house and feel your pain.
It sounds like you have both been through the wringer any thoughts about counselling?
Depression can follow surgeries.
You are in need of being honored, upheld, cherished, and to have a cheering section behind you.
You have both fallen into ruts of giver and receiver and need a reboot but it would take a lot of counseling I think and from what I understand those in law enforcement are less likely to seek counseling (there is a high divorce rate in that profession).
My good thoughts and prayers are with you, you are in a tough spot....and I do understand being married to an artist is much like being married to someone in law enforcement. A lot of same characteristics. My mother-in-law told me when we were engaged that "everything is good as long as DH gets his way" and I've come to see how much I wish I'd paid more attention to her words.
There's only 2 things you can do with any situation - continue - or change. I couldn't handle continue and now I'm divorced - and for my situation it was the right choice.
I'd recommend counseling - for yourself. It really helped me get perspective on my life. Just because he won't work on himself doesn't mean you can't grow and work on yourself.
My opinion - there is a world of difference between helping your partner - and carrying them because they are unwilling to help themselves. It is not your job to carry your partner through life. But it sounds like he won't change as long as things stay as they are.
Thanks y'all..y'all are hitting it write on the head.
Depression- Yep, I do think he has it and I have begged him to go talk to someone. He won't. Again, I can't make him do something but I have to protect myself and our son.
And Creaker, you are right on!! It's a matter of when at this point. I cannot change anymore and I cannot carry him anymore either.
When I tell people I am worn out, they think it's just a short term thing. They don't understand the full scope and how I literally mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually voided of everything. I have to push myself to do the things that matter to me but I don't like that feeling. I deserve to be happy and not worry 24/7. Well I will always worry, I am a mom, but it's different.
I sorta threw a party a month ago, as a last straw, to see how he would react. You know how you do things unconsciously but they end up telling you a lot? I invited people he worked with to cheer him up. He never once thanked me, did not help me at all to set up and I still have coolers in my kitchen because I have not had time to get to them. Maybe I am being too demanding but would you not say Hey can I help you? Even if it's putting out napkins or putting soda's in the fridge. It's very clear now and since I am willing to take my blinders off, it's glaring at me.
Float on- yes, most of the police officers are either divorced or on their second or third marriage. I don't judge but damn, he just doesn't realize how good he has it. Seriously.
And Gardenian, your comment makes me smile. I am a teacher and I am taking my writing course this summer. My professor says I am very descriptive. :)
Williamsmith
6-12-16, 9:52am
You might reach out to Texas A&M University. They developed a marriage education project with a local police department specific to address the stress effects of depression and anxiety on law enforcement marriages. It was called the Law Enforcement Healthy Marriage and Family Project. The following PHDs were involved in the development and implementation via retreats for families.......Dr. Linda Openshaw, Dr. Hugh Clark, and Dr. Cynthia Harr. One of them might be able to refer you to someone with specific skills related to law enforcement marriage counseling. I make no assumptions about the direction you are headed because counseling is about gaining perspective prior to making critical decisions, not about trying to convince someone to do one or the other thing.
I think the counseling for yourself is a great idea.
Yeah that exhaustion level. I used to get 'in trouble' basically for saying I was overwhelmed. I did a test too, my ex was working a really crappy job for awhile and so I did something nice, just said something or did a small thing, every day for a month. I was of course expecting to see him feel better overall, but he got crappier over that month the more things I did or said to appreciate him. It was a real eye opener, unfortunately I hung in there for another 5 years and probably wasn't as nice, but I had my test run that showed the more I gave, the more he acted badly.
I wish I had some wise words to offer, but I don't. You've been through so much this past year just with the damage done to your house- I had no idea you were also dealing with this whole load of BS too. Wishing you peace and strength as you work to change your life.
Thanks Herbgeek...if you want to add onto it...I lost both my parents and made a huge career change over the past 2 years...I am a tough girl but something has to give. I think this is the sprinboard to something amazing..I do..just have to get through it!!!
And I agree with the counseling for myself. I have done it before. Didn't even tell him because I didn't want to hear the comments. We get 8 free sessions, per year, on our insurance.
Aqua Blue
6-12-16, 12:07pm
I Stayed in a very difficult marriage for 20 years. always said I would stay. one morning while standing by the copier at work, I thought I am done. I left shortly after. I think you know when you simply have no more to give.
Aqua blue (my favorite color) YEP YEP YEP!!!! I have done this with other things in my life. One instance was when I just knew my corporate life was over. I remember very clearly I had ordered lunch and the delivery boy could not find my office. I met him down in a garden, outside the building. I usually eat my lunch at my desk but it was such a beautiful day, I just sat down on a bench and ate it and decided I wanted more of this and not the office. Resigned 2 months later. :)
Which brings up a great point...I am the type of person not to dwell on something. Now, divorce is such a sticky thing, especially with a child BUT then again, it doesn't need to be THAT hard..it's the people who make it hard. And knowing myself, I can walk away, just have to put a few things in place.
I so agree with the writing down and thinking about how you want your life to be. Then decide if you can have that life within the marriage or not. For me, like others, I reached a point where I was just DONE. And my marriage was a lot less toxic than you are describing. Honestly, it sucks in some ways; you don't plan to marry, then divorce, but it's not the end of the world either. In my situation, I didn't try for couples counselling or anything, as I was 100% certain that the life I wanted was not going to be feasible with my husband. It took about two years from first realization to ending it. Divorce isn't quite final yet, but soon.
I also quit my job at the same time. Going back to living authentically was the best thing ever. I love your list of items you want. I went super-minimalist as well when I left. I hate being surrounded by pointless STUFF. It's fine if you use it. My new partner has a lot of hobby items. But is minimalist in most other areas. I remember with ex, I pointed out he had like a dozen pillowcases, that were never used. He didn't care. Just a tiny example, doesn't really matter. But little things grate on you over time.
One thing I would suggest is to stop doing things for him. If you don't want to be his mother, just tell him what he is responsible for, and don't do the things. Of course, joint things like recycling, you still have to do. But cooking, laundry, whatever. Take care of yourself and your child. He can fend for himself.
Best of luck with everything.
yes on the stop doing things, I recall when we were separated but still living in the same house in different rooms., there was a time when he asked (after he was running out of clothes) when I was going to do his laundry. Dude! I was not going to do his laundry and he seemed so baffled by it. So decide what you are no longer doing that he can do by himself and doesn't affect shared space. Really freeing.
Thanks Kestra. I have decided to live my life as if it was mine and he is kinda around..for example..I have always said I wanted to go to the farmer's market more. He does not eat fruit much. But I just started going. Also, I don't buy soft drinks or juice anymore and no more special milk for him. I realized this week I spend about $35 extra a week just for stuff for him. And realize, I cook everyday. My son loves my leftovers and I can make anything from very little. It saves us money.
Laundry- I made a cry for help a few months ago. If it's not in the laundry room, it doesn't get washed. My son can do this, he can't. So he went looking for his pants one day and had nothing clean. Again, I was being mean. Whatever....
Here is another piece...and please ask questions..I am very open...
When we first met and then married, we always talked about living simple so we could travel and have life experiences. He knew I was somewhat of a simple/minimal liver and I like a clean, organized space. We wanted to get a small house and then a place at the beach...nothing fancy..We were on that path for the first 2-3 years and then fast foward-he keeps talking about getting a bigger house, more things and it makes me cringe and I remind him, that's not me. I keep getting rid of things. He then says I have changed. Um..no..pretty much been like this since day one. And he gripes that I clean too much..seriously? I remember the days of us both cleaning, I never had to beg. And my thing is we all contribute to the mess, we all clean it up. I work full time, go to school and some days, I rather pull the blankets over my head but I put in 20 minutes and get it done. I don't think have a back log of dishes for days is the way to go..I have smelly, dirty messes. I have piles every once in awhile but they usually don't go more than a few days before I deal with them. I am talking seeing trash on the floor or like the dog yak and just walking by it. That ticks me off.
Honestly, he is a smart academic man but I think he lacks in some basic brain function sometimes. He looks at me like I am talking to him like a child but he does not respond or get it.
If he's smart then he's not lacking brain function. He's most likely got personality problems. Narcissistic traits perhaps. He looks at you like that and stares at you without speaking when you tell him you're upset - because it has gotten him what he wants. No fight and you keep doing all the work.
If he's smart then he's not lacking brain function. He's most likely got personality problems. Narcissistic traits perhaps. He looks at you like that and stares at you without speaking when you tell him you're upset - because it has gotten him what he wants. No fight and you keep doing all the work.
Yes Tammy, I am realizing this is my reality. :( It's painful but I will get through this.
Totally get the scenario where you are going to live simply and then one person backs out. I recall when my ex met me I was wearing my cutest outfit, red plaid skirt, black combat boots, some concert t-shirt and part of my head was shaved. I was apparently the 'cute little punk girl' in the dorms. So he hung around a long time before I went out with him, the whole time I looked like I did and talked about things I still talk about today like simple living and social justice. We are dirt poor raising kids, I do all the scratch cooking, washing diapers, etc. until he starts to make money, and it becomes good money. And then he is just off on some other life, narcissism that was just a minor trait before became the primary way he operated. He also did a lot of 'forgetting' and coming across clueless. I can PM more on that if it is useful. However when they say money changes people I didn't think it was when you finally got above poverty level, I really thought that the crappiness didn't happen if you weren't rich.
Today he has a lovely wife and a big house that none of the kids can live in with him, designer dogs (I thought the jeans were bad), high maintenance life. I still have the same values. The only thing that makes me really sad is that all his money goes to him and the kids can't count on him for college. But I would not want that life at all, I said that throughout the divorce I could lose everything (money kids) but I had a choice to keep my integrity. And I feel very good about that, but it was f**ing brutal at times to do it.
Keep your chin up, you'll get through this. Many of us here on this forum have lived through a very similar situation and come out okay on the other side.
Looking back - for myself - I think the cultural upbringing for girls and women to always be nice, helpful, non-complaining, etc. meant that we did not learn it's also okay to have boundaries.
So I'm hoping you can regain your personal boundaries and live the life for yourself and your child that you deserve.
People grow apart, and in different directions. There are likely no demons here. I do feel sorry for your son; children are the ones who suffer most in divorce--especially sons who lose their role models. I hope whatever happens does the least possible damage.
There was a point in my marriage (mid-late 40s) where I felt similarly. I had also recently gone through multiple stressful life events. I was fed up with DH for reasons I won't go into and could not visualize a future with him. Difference may be though that I still loved him and honored all that we had been through together, ie for better or worse. Nevertheless, I had to make an ultimatum because I hate feeling stuck. We moved to another location away from bad influences. As time went by, he did indeed change and "grow up." And now I can't imagine not being married to him. In retrospect, DH was indeed depressed but a change of scenery helped both of us get through a rough patch. Living with resentment is not a good place to be.
Teacher Terry
6-12-16, 4:55pm
I have divorced 2 husbands and am married for a 3rd time. My first we were really young at 18 and then had a chld at 19. I did everything and he did nothing basically except work because he was in the military. I divorced him after 3 years. Remarried someone 9 years older and we had 2 kids. Then he became very bossy, controlling, verbally abusive, etc but he worked hard in and out of the house. I stayed until the youngest was 18 and a month later divorced him. The 2nd husband I made to go to counseling many times and it really did no good. He got much nicer to me a few years before I left because finally I could support myself and the kids since I had a good job. By then I hated him. YOu have been struggling for a long time and now need to take care of yourself and your son. You have given enough. I am really sorry for what you are going through.
Thanks y'all..I am enjoying all your words and ideas, thoughts, sharing..it's helping.
Pinkytoe- I am so glad all worked out for you. I don't think I am in the same position because there are no influences here...it's all him. :(
I am trying to keep things in perspective and be positive. One thing is I have no family to judge me and his family, well, they turn on a dime to judge people as soon as you wrong them once or they perceive a wrongness. So whatever. Friends- meh...Other than here on these forums, I have told no one and don't plan on it.
I have been struggling and I feel like I have chains on my shoulders and I am almost to shore but can't quite touch the bottom. I need to be my own wave and get that final push to save myself and my son.
We have a vacation planned for July. I am still going. Good time to look around and a good time for 4 days of rest and fun in the sun and time with my son. :)
About children suffering....I posted here some 12 years ago about getting divorced. I had two younger kids at the time (6, and 8). IrisLilly posted something similar and I cringed. I may even have deleted the original post. I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to think I was hurting my kids. I've remembered that comment through the years and although it was hard to hear, she was absolutely right (and I'm thankful she said it:-).
Kids don't go through it untouched, even with the best of circumstances (finances were secure, low conflict, close geographically, extended families still stayed close...heck his long time girlfriend, her parents, and his parents were all at my place last night to celebrate our youngest graduating from highschool), it is still asking kids to live in two homes (if they are lucky enough to maintain a close relationship with both parents) and the drudge involved in not having your parents in the same home.
I'm not suggesting anyone stay in a marriage for the kids, not sure that that is better. Just reminding myself and others (as Iris did for me) that divorce is no easy path for the kids involved and to keep them front and center as you navigate this process.
About children suffering....I posted here some 12 years ago about getting divorced. I had two younger kids at the time (6, and 8). IrisLilly posted something similar and I cringed. I may even have deleted the original post. I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to think I was hurting my kids. I've remembered that comment through the years and although it was hard to hear, she was right.
Kids don't go through it untouched, even with the best of circumstances (finances were secure, low conflict, close geographically, extended families still stayed close...heck his long time girlfriend, her parents, and his parents were all at my place last night to celebrate our youngest graduating from college), it is still asking kids to live in two homes (if they are lucky enough to maintain a close relationship with both parents) and the drudge involved in not having your parents in the same home.
I'm not suggesting anyone stay in a marriage for the kids, not sure that that is better. Just reminding myself and others (as Iris did for me) that divorce is no easy path for the kids involved and to keep them front and center as you navigate this process.
First, many hugs my friend!!!
Yep, I kinda feel darned if I do and darned if I don't about my son. It's just sucks. :(
Do you want your son to grow up with his father as an example of how to treat his wife? Just another thing to think about. Sending you good thoughts and strength.
Do you want your son to grow up with his father as an example of how to treat his wife? Just another thing to think about. Sending you good thoughts and strength.
Nswef..I do think about this!!! :(
I can speak to the kids issue. It came to a point for me that I was not able to parent well anymore. So it was better for them to have 2 households. Actually my ex and I lived in walking distance of each other for a long time and then a 15 minute drive later. So the kids were never far from either of us. We worked out holidays well, I never prevented them from seeing their dad when they wanted, and he did the same. What I found is that they saw him for who he was and me for who I was. I am not perfect but the kids all gravitated to me pretty quickly. Even with that I kept my mouth shut except for extreme cases when I felt it was important to validate for them what was going on (dad trying to put kid in mental hospital for truancy). As adults they are all really good people, caring, hard workers, and kind. They still have issues with him at times, and with his dad, but I didn't add to it. They notice things and have a few times talked to me about how it was, how they saw dad treat me, which really helps. I know I couldn't have done this good of a job still married to him, the problems between us affected everyone.
Not an easy call, I know I stayed for more years because I wanted to take care of my kids better, but you can do this well.
I'm not suggesting anyone stay in a marriage for the kids, not sure that that is better. Just reminding myself and others (as Iris did for me) that divorce is no easy path for the kids involved and to keep them front and center as you navigate this process.
I didn't divorce until the kids were grown - I'm still not sure whether that was more helpful or harmful to them.
Ultralight
6-13-16, 7:36am
My vote:
Divorce.
Make a move on this. The longer you put it off the more difficult everything will be.
Here is sending you thoughts of peace. It sounds like you have a huge amount of stress in your life. I have found for myself that lots of stress mess with my brain and makes it very hard to make a solid decision. Hugs
Yes, I am trying to make space in my head to think clear and calm, come from a place of common sense and heart and not panic, anger or stress. It's hard. Thanks y'all. :)
Ultralight
6-13-16, 8:37am
Yes, I am trying to make space in my head to think clear and calm, come from a place of common sense and heart and not panic, anger or stress. It's hard. Thanks y'all. :)
It is probably worth talking to a lawyer. They might give you a better perspective of what your finances might look like post-divorce (if you choose to go that route).
I know several women who are full-time ex-wives. They got that good of a settlement. One was like 40 when she got divorced. She gets paid $50k a year until she is 65 years old. That is just one example.
Either way, I hope you can find some solace in whichever choices you make.
Might want to talk to a lawyer before moving out also. The one who leaves the shared home is often less empowered during the divorce settlement. And with selling yours, I don't know how that impacts things.
Ultralight
6-13-16, 11:17am
Yes, talk to a lawyer before you make any moves of any kind. If you play your cards right you could end up doing quite well financially!
IshbelRobertson
6-13-16, 1:47pm
Yes, talk to a lawyer before you make any moves of any kind. If you play your cards right you could end up doing quite well financially!
Goodness, you sound quite bitter...
Teacher Terry
6-13-16, 2:12pm
Most women are much poorer after a divorce. I don't know any professional ex-wives.
Ultralight
6-13-16, 2:15pm
Most women are much poorer after a divorce. I don't know any professional ex-wives.
Hmmm... I can't explain it. I mean, I have known a bunch who are doing it for the long-haul or for just 5 or 6 years until they exhaust the spousal support.
iris lilies
6-13-16, 3:59pm
About children suffering....I posted here some 12 years ago about getting divorced. I had two younger kids at the time (6, and 8). IrisLilly posted something similar and I cringed. I may even have deleted the original post. I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to think I was hurting my kids. I've remembered that comment through the years and although it was hard to hear, she was absolutely right (and I'm thankful she said it:-).
Kids don't go through it untouched, even with the best of circumstances (finances were secure, low conflict, close geographically, extended families still stayed close...heck his long time girlfriend, her parents, and his parents were all at my place last night to celebrate our youngest graduating from highschool), it is still asking kids to live in two homes (if they are lucky enough to maintain a close relationship with both parents) and the drudge involved in not having your parents in the same home.
I'm not suggesting anyone stay in a marriage for the kids, not sure that that is better. Just reminding myself and others (as Iris did for me) that divorce is no easy path for the kids involved and to keep them front and center as you navigate this process.
Hey, Im glad all that is behnd you.!
Today I am concerned about the bulldog in OP 's situation and hope that he is the guy who going with mom if this household breaks up.
Ultralight
6-13-16, 4:00pm
Yes, keep your dog!
iris lilies
6-13-16, 4:01pm
Alimony isnt much of a thing these days, especially for people in UL's age group. Or even in my age group.
UL did you pay alimony? I know you said you paid money to your ex, but was that spousal support or was it other kinds of payment?
Ultralight
6-13-16, 4:03pm
Alimony isnt much of a thing these days, especially for people in UL's age group. Or even in my age group.
UL did you pay alimony? I know you said you paid money to your ex, but was that spousal support or was it other kinds of payment?
Not alimony. She did not pursue it. But my lawyer told me she could get three years of it easily if she asked.
Fortunately she did not ask for it.
iris lilies
6-13-16, 4:05pm
Nne of us know whats going on in your marriage OP, but I have to ask: did yor husband want the party you threw, and if so, how much do you think he wanted it? Was he enthusiastic or merely accepting? How did he talk about it? Did he have a good time?
Ultralight
6-13-16, 4:09pm
Alimony isnt much of a thing these days, especially for people in UL's age group. Or even in my age group.
It isn't so much about what age you are or what generation you are from. It is more about these things:
-Did the wife work outside the home?
-How much does the husband make?
-How many kids are there?
-What lifestyle has the wife been made accustomed to?
Nne of us know whats going on in your marriage OP, but I have to ask: did yor husband want the party you threw, and if so, how much do you think he wanted it? Was he enthusiastic or merely accepting? How did he talk about it? Did he have a good time?
It was an effort and thought on both parts. He suggested having people over, I thought it was a good idea, to cheer him up. We didn't have tons of people...less than 10. I think he had a good time but right now, I am questioning everything. :(
iris lilies
6-13-16, 4:16pm
It isn't so much about what age you are or what generation you are from. It is more about these things:
-Did the wife work outside the home?
-How much does the husband make?
-How many kids are there?
-What lifestyle has the wife been made accustomed to?
Oh I know, its just that people your age tend not to have been married long and/or with a stay at home wife and no children.
Thats why its unusual and when I thnk I cannot come up with anyone who got spousal support in recent decades.
Decades ago, my old boyfriend beoke up with his common law wife (before he met me) When they split he paid her alimony, his own choice and not required, for ten years. I always kidded him that he was the only person I ever knew to pay alimony and he wasnt even married! I guess he felt pretty guilty, and she had also worked while he went through grad school, so thats where his sense of obligation came from.
ApatheticNoMore
6-13-16, 4:17pm
Nne of us know whats going on in your marriage OP, but I have to ask: did yor husband want the party you threw, and if so, how much do you think he wanted it? Was he enthusiastic or merely accepting? How did he talk about it? Did he have a good time?
yea doing things for people just to see if they will act grateful ... uh a lot of times they can consciously or subconsciously see through this whole game I suspect. Things have to be done at a much more genuine and unselfish level to really be perceived as a gift (and some people are just not going to treat you right no matter what - yea well, we don't know your marriage and so can't say keep him or dump him. I just suspect many wouldn't react well to "testing" and that's just analyzing the narrow situation.).
Ultralight
6-13-16, 4:25pm
Oh I know, its just that people your age tend not to have been married long and/or with a stay at home wife and no children.
Thats why its unusual and when I thnk I cannot come up with anyone who got spousal support in recent decades.
I am kind of shocked.
My ex had not had a job for quite a while when she left. And there were stretches after graduate school when I was working full time and she was working part-time for like $8 an hour. And 11 years deep would have meant a few years of spousal support even without kids. It has something to do with the lifestyle the wife gets used to.
I narrowly avoided it. After she left she started hanging around her girlfriends and a lot. They were a bad influence. My ex and shared a car. My ex would not let me use the car, which I needed to go to work to pay the bills. Her girlfriends were like: "That car is in your name! He has no right to use it."
Luckily my sis and BIL let me borrow their car until I got this situated, which took about a month or two.
Her girlfriends also told her that I was responsible to pay all her bills and take care of her during the separation, like buy her groceries and such too. So she'd come over and say she needed money to pay her student loan bill or to buy groceries or for gasoline. She was like: "I don't have a job! I need money!"
iris lilies
6-13-16, 4:37pm
I am kind of shocked.
My ex had not had a job for quite a while when she left. And there were stretches after graduate school when I was working full time and she was working part-time for like $8 an hour. And 11 years deep would have meant a few years of spousal support even without kids. It has something to do with the lifestyle the wife gets used to.
I narrowly avoided it. After she left she started hanging around her girlfriends and a lot. They were a bad influence. My ex and shared a car. My ex would not let me use the car, which I needed to go to work to pay the bills. Her girlfriends were like: "That car is in your name! He has no right to use it."
Luckily my sis and BIL let me borrow their car until I got this situated, which took about a month or two.
Her girlfriends also told her that I was responsible to pay all her bills and take care of her during the separation, like buy her groceries and such too. So she'd come over and say she needed money to pay her student loan bill or to buy groceries or for gasoline. She was like: "I don't have a job! I need money!"
Ah yes, the girlfriends backing up whatever she wants them to back up. That happens a lot, and I even see it on threads like this, advising the participant we know to get out! And now!
I am truly having a brain fart on divorced couples where she gets alimony. I am sure I know some but I cant think of any other than my friend and neighbor Ellie who was awarded some alimony, as I think about it. But she never collected on it since her ex husband shot her dead the day their divorce was finalized. Too bad she wasnt able to enjoy that life of leisure.
oh yeah, someone I know is getting a divorce and I think she is gonna have to pay HIM alimony because she makes twice as much money and they have been married 20+ years, even though hes the one who dumped d her to move in with his 25 year old girlfriend. But she is getting this business done before she inherits a substantial amount of money so in the end, the joke is on him.
Ultralight
6-13-16, 5:18pm
oh yeah, someone I know is getting a divorce and I think she is gonna have to pay HIM alimony because she makes twice as much money and they have been married 20+ years, even though hes the one who dumped d her to move in with his 25 year old girlfriend. But she is getting this business done before she inherits a substantial amount of money so in the end, the joke is on him.
See? Here is the thing. If he cheated on her and left her for another woman and your friend documents all that, then she can probably wiggle out of alimony to him.
That is why when anyone is getting divorced I tell them to fly straight and narrow until it is finalized.
I was curious about Iris Lily's statements that not that many people get alimony. I don't have that many friends who have ever been married and most of those that are are married have only done so in the last few years after having been couples for a long time, so I have almost no friends who have been divorced. So I went looking for statistics to back up Iris Lily's claim that not many women get alimony anymore. The first thing I found was this article from 2009. The initial story is shocking. And frankly, just seems very wrong.
http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703399204574505700448957522?mg=ren o64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1000 1424052748703399204574505700448957522.html
Paul and Theresa Taylor were married for 17 years. He was an engineer for Boston's public-works department, while she worked in accounting at a publishing company. They had three children, a weekend cottage on the bay and a house in the suburbs, on a leafy street called Cranberry Lane. In 1982, when they got divorced, the split was amicable. She got the family home; he got the second home. Both agreed "to waive any right to past, present or future alimony."
But recently, more than two decades after the divorce, Ms. Taylor, 64, told a Massachusetts judge she had no job, retirement savings or health insurance. Earlier this year, the judge ordered Mr. Taylor, now 68 and remarried, to pay $400 per week to support his ex-wife.
"This is insane," Mr. Taylor says, adding that the payments cut his after-tax pension by more than one-third. "Someone can just come back 25 years later and say, 'My life went down the toilet, and you're doing good—so now I want some of your money'?"
And according to this article: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-divorce-alimony-men-idUSBRE9BN0AW20131224 the 2010 census showed that 400,000 people are receiving spousal support, 97% of them women. Considering that approximately 1.2 million couples divorce in the US every year it would seem that Iris Lily is indeed correct that spousal support payments just aren't that common.
And since I was on a fact finding mission I'll throw one more out there just in case anyone was curious. Apparently practice does not make perfect when it comes to getting married. https://www.mckinleyirvin.com/Family-Law-Blog/2012/October/32-Shocking-Divorce-Statistics.aspx The divorce rate is 41% of first marriages, 60% of second marriages and 73% of third marriages.
iris lilies
6-13-16, 9:36pm
I was curious about Iris Lily's statements that not that many people get alimony. I don't have that many friends who have ever been married and most of those that are are married have only done so in the last few years after having been couples for a long time, so I have almost no friends who have been divorced. So I went looking for statistics to back up Iris Lily's claim that not many women get alimony anymore. The first thing I found was this article from 2009. The initial story is shocking. And frankly, just seems very wrong.
http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703399204574505700448957522?mg=ren o64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1000 1424052748703399204574505700448957522.html
Paul and Theresa Taylor were married for 17 years. He was an engineer for Boston's public-works department, while she worked in accounting at a publishing company. They had three children, a weekend cottage on the bay and a house in the suburbs, on a leafy street called Cranberry Lane. In 1982, when they got divorced, the split was amicable. She got the family home; he got the second home. Both agreed "to waive any right to past, present or future alimony."
But recently, more than two decades after the divorce, Ms. Taylor, 64, told a Massachusetts judge she had no job, retirement savings or health insurance. Earlier this year, the judge ordered Mr. Taylor, now 68 and remarried, to pay $400 per week to support his ex-wife.
"This is insane," Mr. Taylor says, adding that the payments cut his after-tax pension by more than one-third. "Someone can just come back 25 years later and say, 'My life went down the toilet, and you're doing good—so now I want some of your money'?"
And according to this article: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-divorce-alimony-men-idUSBRE9BN0AW20131224 the 2010 census showed that 400,000 people are receiving spousal support, 97% of them women. Considering that approximately 1.2 million couples divorce in the US every year it would seem that Iris Lily is indeed correct that spousal support payments just aren't that common.
And since I was on a fact finding mission I'll throw one more out there just in case anyone was curious. Apparently practice does not make perfect when it comes to getting married. https://www.mckinleyirvin.com/Family-Law-Blog/2012/October/32-Shocking-Divorce-Statistics.aspx The divorce rate is 41% of first marriages, 60% of second marriages and 73% of third marriages.
Knew I had read those stats somewhere. UL's idea about maintaning a divorced spouse at a level to which they are acustomed is out of fashion. Judges know how much a modest apartment in a safe neighborhood costs, and that would be the basis for spousal maintenance.
I had an epihiny and remembered that my father in law's girlfriend, age 75, receives spousal support. She claims it is because she ran their family business when her hisband went off on alcoholic benders including the last two years of their marriage when he was essentially gone.
My friend who was shot by her husband had a similar deal--she was the bookeeper, errand boy, adminstrative assistant for her husband's business.
so, even those 400,000 awards may include instances like these women who worked alongside of their husband and contributed to his wealth.
Anecdotal advice (does not make statistics valid, just interesting): In Massachusetts, after 20 years of marriage you are eligible for alimony. My friend D was married to S. S didn't want to work. She was qualified as a teacher (BS degree, certification) and worked as one for about 9 months until first child was born. In theory she homeschooled the 2 kids, but in actuality she did nothing. He worked, cleaned, cooked, and did the schooling for the children while she watched TV or tried out the newest shiny hobby.
D is paying alimony for the rest of his life, to the tune of about 60K. Ex Wife rents a big house, by herself, on his money. She still doesn't want to work, and now never will have to. I can see paying alimony so that someone can go back to school, learn a trade to sustain themselves, set someone up in a business. But alimony forever just because? Seems so wrong to me. With a college degree, she certainly can do /something/. But nope, life of leisure she always wanted. Both kids wanted to live with dad and she pays nothing for their support.
Same thing happened with another work friend. No kids, his wife had worked most of their marriage, but because they were married long enough, he has to pay alimony forever.
Ultralight
6-14-16, 7:17am
Anecdotal advice (does not make statistics valid, just interesting): In Massachusetts, after 20 years of marriage you are eligible for alimony. My friend D was married to S. S didn't want to work. She was qualified as a teacher (BS degree, certification) and worked as one for about 9 months until first child was born. In theory she homeschooled the 2 kids, but in actuality she did nothing. He worked, cleaned, cooked, and did the schooling for the children while she watched TV or tried out the newest shiny hobby.
D is paying alimony for the rest of his life, to the tune of about 60K. Ex Wife rents a big house, by herself, on his money. She still doesn't want to work, and now never will have to. I can see paying alimony so that someone can go back to school, learn a trade to sustain themselves, set someone up in a business. But alimony forever just because? Seems so wrong to me. With a college degree, she certainly can do /something/. But nope, life of leisure she always wanted. Both kids wanted to live with dad and she pays nothing for their support.
Same thing happened with another work friend. No kids, his wife had worked most of their marriage, but because they were married long enough, he has to pay alimony forever.
Your anecdotes will promptly be dismissed.
Ultralight
6-14-16, 7:20am
And according to this article: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-divorce-alimony-men-idUSBRE9BN0AW20131224 the 2010 census showed that 400,000 people are receiving spousal support, 97% of them women. Considering that approximately 1.2 million couples divorce in the US every year it would seem that Iris Lily is indeed correct that spousal support payments just aren't that common.
What I see from this is: If you have money you will pay spousal support. But if you really don't have much money at all, then you won't pay it.
Miss Cellane
6-14-16, 9:15am
Anecdotal advice (does not make statistics valid, just interesting): In Massachusetts, after 20 years of marriage you are eligible for alimony. My friend D was married to S. S didn't want to work. She was qualified as a teacher (BS degree, certification) and worked as one for about 9 months until first child was born. In theory she homeschooled the 2 kids, but in actuality she did nothing. He worked, cleaned, cooked, and did the schooling for the children while she watched TV or tried out the newest shiny hobby.
D is paying alimony for the rest of his life, to the tune of about 60K. Ex Wife rents a big house, by herself, on his money. She still doesn't want to work, and now never will have to. I can see paying alimony so that someone can go back to school, learn a trade to sustain themselves, set someone up in a business. But alimony forever just because? Seems so wrong to me. With a college degree, she certainly can do /something/. But nope, life of leisure she always wanted. Both kids wanted to live with dad and she pays nothing for their support.
Same thing happened with another work friend. No kids, his wife had worked most of their marriage, but because they were married long enough, he has to pay alimony forever.
My brother was divorced several years ago in Massachusetts. His ex-wife got the house, both cars, and everything in the house. And custody of the kids.
My brother paid child support for each of the two kids until they turned 18. (At which point, he put the same amount of money in their college funds.) He has to pay alimony for 8 years--half the length of their marriage. Maccachusetts allows for alimony based on the length of the marriage, up to the 20 years herbgeek mentions. SIL worked the whole time they were married, except for maternity leave, and makes about $85,000/year in her current job. DB makes about twice that.
Massachusetts requires that the divorcing couple go through a mediator to determine alimony/child support. After three months of bickering by ex-SIL, they went to court. The judge looked at the settlement, turned to my brother and said, "You can't live on what's left, can you?" My brother agreed with him, and to ex-SIL's shock, they had to go back and re-do the settlement. (During the time that they were separated, but not divorced, DB's paycheck was deposited in ex-SIL's bank account, and he had to wait for her to pay him a monthly allowance.)
My brother agreed to a lot, just to make sure his kids didn't suffer.
Ultralight
6-14-16, 9:22am
My brother was divorced several years ago in Massachusetts. His ex-wife got the house, both cars, and everything in the house. And custody of the kids.
My brother paid child support for each of the two kids until they turned 18. (At which point, he put the same amount of money in their college funds.) He has to pay alimony for 8 years--half the length of their marriage. Maccachusetts allows for alimony based on the length of the marriage, up to the 20 years herbgeek mentions. SIL worked the whole time they were married, except for maternity leave, and makes about $85,000/year in her current job. DB makes about twice that.
Massachusetts requires that the divorcing couple go through a mediator to determine alimony/child support. After three months of bickering by ex-SIL, they went to court. The judge looked at the settlement, turned to my brother and said, "You can't live on what's left, can you?" My brother agreed with him, and to ex-SIL's shock, they had to go back and re-do the settlement. (During the time that they were separated, but not divorced, DB's paycheck was deposited in ex-SIL's bank account, and he had to wait for her to pay him a monthly allowance.)
My brother agreed to a lot, just to make sure his kids didn't suffer.
Seems fair.
ToomuchStuff
6-14-16, 2:33pm
TxZen
Ask for the cop injuries on a bike, VERSES the cop injuries in a car. (compare statistics) If you think he is depressed, you should be advising his supervisor (they can order counceling). You could also see if the dept offers some kind of couples counseling, due to the high rate of LEO divorces. If he is dragging out his recovery, if it is determined to be either physical (you should be involved with the Doctors), or mental (by the guy examining him for depression), then it will be fine. If he is just dragging it out to play the game (get the most out of the dept), then bringing attention to it, could cause issues for you.
You could try the embarrasement techniques (like picking up after him and when your yelling at him, calling him son, see how he responds to being treated as a child). But I need to advocate as someone with LEO's in the family, these people come home to relax, after dealing with people on tradtionally bad, to the worse days of their lives, and it does take a toll. He signed up for a paycheck for that, you didn't get offered a paycheck, but agreed to it with " to be my lawfully wedded(husband/wife), to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part." So the separated house and chores suggestion, seems good to me (and if your kid is old enough, learning to do his own laundry/cooking etc. would be a benefit). You would cook and clean up after yourself and/or your kid and let him fend for himself for a bit.
You could also get in touch with his partner and see if there is other stuff going on, that he isn't letting you know (and let them know your concerned about his depression and lack of assistance). Tell the partner to be blunt, as you also want to know if he is trying to drive you away, because his interests lie in someone/something else.
Ultralight
6-14-16, 2:39pm
TxZen
Ask for the cop injuries on a bike, VERSES the cop injuries in a car. (compare statistics) If you think he is depressed, you should be advising his supervisor (they can order counceling). You could also see if the dept offers some kind of couples counseling, due to the high rate of LEO divorces. If he is dragging out his recovery, if it is determined to be either physical (you should be involved with the Doctors), or mental (by the guy examining him for depression), then it will be fine. If he is just dragging it out to play the game (get the most out of the dept), then bringing attention to it, could cause issues for you.
You could try the embarrasement techniques (like picking up after him and when your yelling at him, calling him son, see how he responds to being treated as a child). But I need to advocate as someone with LEO's in the family, these people come home to relax, after dealing with people on tradtionally bad, to the worse days of their lives, and it does take a toll. He signed up for a paycheck for that, you didn't get offered a paycheck, but agreed to it with " to be my lawfully wedded(husband/wife), to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part." So the separated house and chores suggestion, seems good to me (and if your kid is old enough, learning to do his own laundry/cooking etc. would be a benefit). You would cook and clean up after yourself and/or your kid and let him fend for himself for a bit.
You could also get in touch with his partner and see if there is other stuff going on, that he isn't letting you know (and let them know your concerned about his depression and lack of assistance). Tell the partner to be blunt, as you also want to know if he is trying to drive you away, because his interests lie in someone/something else.
This could tip off her strategy if she does indeed plan to divorce.
The element of surprise will be helpful. She should keep it if she can.
ToomuchStuff
6-14-16, 3:01pm
This could tip off her strategy if she does indeed plan to divorce.
The element of surprise will be helpful. She should keep it if she can.
It could also show she is trying to save what she see's as a failing marriage.
TxZen
Ask for the cop injuries on a bike, VERSES the cop injuries in a car. (compare statistics) If you think he is depressed, you should be advising his supervisor (they can order counceling). You could also see if the dept offers some kind of couples counseling, due to the high rate of LEO divorces. If he is dragging out his recovery, if it is determined to be either physical (you should be involved with the Doctors), or mental (by the guy examining him for depression), then it will be fine. If he is just dragging it out to play the game (get the most out of the dept), then bringing attention to it, could cause issues for you.
You could try the embarrasement techniques (like picking up after him and when your yelling at him, calling him son, see how he responds to being treated as a child). But I need to advocate as someone with LEO's in the family, these people come home to relax, after dealing with people on tradtionally bad, to the worse days of their lives, and it does take a toll. He signed up for a paycheck for that, you didn't get offered a paycheck, but agreed to it with " to be my lawfully wedded(husband/wife), to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part." So the separated house and chores suggestion, seems good to me (and if your kid is old enough, learning to do his own laundry/cooking etc. would be a benefit). You would cook and clean up after yourself and/or your kid and let him fend for himself for a bit.
You could also get in touch with his partner and see if there is other stuff going on, that he isn't letting you know (and let them know your concerned about his depression and lack of assistance). Tell the partner to be blunt, as you also want to know if he is trying to drive you away, because his interests lie in someone/something else.
Totally get it. We were both military prior to returning to civilian life when we married. I am a 2 time Combat Vet, with 4 deployments under my belt. We both had our fair share of demons from our time in. I choose to deal with mine. I am not perfect but I get up everyday and try. In the past 2 years, I have dealt with the loss of both my parents, a good friend and a complete life change. I am still a mom, wife, student, doing what I need to do. Having a certain job doesn't excuse one from being part of the family. He chose to get married too and his vows should count too, not just one way. I come from a long line of military/LEO's/first responders. I have seen and heard it all and I get the jobs are tough but at some point, they chose to marry as well, so it goes both ways, if you can understand that. I give him his space but that does not mean it all falls on me.
He doesn't really have a partner. It's a small town, so they are pretty spread out and I don't want to get anyone else involved, right now. Gossipers abound.
TxZen, I've already weighed in on the Divorce 101 thread. I can see I'm "late to the party" on this thread. But I did want to add my support. Indeed, no one outside a marriage can see what goes on inside it, but the situation you've described is bad. Only you know if it's worth trying counseling now or if it's too late for that (that is, one or both of you has already divorced emotionally).
In any case, you have a difficult decision to make and a bumpy road ahead but I'm one of several here who is willing to be a source of advice, a sounding board, and a cheering/commiseration section if you need one. Good luck.
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