Women getting married in order to avoid figuring out what to do with their lives? [Archive]

Ultralight

6-13-16, 9:10am

I promise this is not "Clickbait."

Yesterday I took a long walk with a friend of mine. I will call her "Addy"

Addy is 35, unmarried, and in a long term (13 years) relationship with a guy. They are both successful and make in the $80k range per year.

She'd like to have kids but she keeps busy with her life-coaching business and her hobbies. Her man tells her things like: "Yes, yes, yes. I want to get married and have kids. But we just don't have enough money saved yet." Or: "It is just not the right time." Or: "Wait until we're making just a little more in salary."

And so on.

I have heard this tactic referred to as "waiting out her eggs."

But nonetheless, she went to a string of weddings over the past 5 years -- many, many weddings. As she said: "It was just girlfriend after girlfriend after girlfriend. They got married!"

Then she said they often say things like: "I am going to quit my job now and teach a little yoga part-time and maybe do some freelance graphic design." Addy said these are "code words for doing nothing."

Apparently they pop out a kid or two and then become stay-at-home-moms.
Addy suspects that they do this to avoid having to figure out what they really want to do in life or to avoid having to actually apply themselves to something.

Their husbands all make serious bank. So they are well-kept women and get plenty of assistance for childcare.

Thoughts on her observations?

I provided some insights and counterpoints to Addy's observations and thoughts. But I decided to bring this phenomenon up on here and to also see how one might tie it in (negatively or positively) to Simple Living.

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 9:23am

Addy suspects that they do this to avoid having to figure out what they really want to do in life or to avoid having to actually apply themselves to something.

well you can do that without having a kid or anything, I mean please overkill. The average job will keep you busy enough to be run fairly ragged. Most people don't do what they "really want to do in life", they do what they have to to survive and having kids or not just has nothing to do with it.

Women are judged whatever they do in life pretty much. If they stay home with kids they are judged even though from my point of view it sounds insane to raise kids and work most jobs. If they don't have kids they are judged. If they try to do it all work full time and raise kids that's the socially pushed choice I guess, but it's bound to be a super stressful one. I mean we don't live in a world where having kids is easily integrated into most people's work lives is just the reality of it and this society has chosen to deal with it by ..... judging women

TxZen

6-13-16, 9:32am

I know a lot of women who just want to stay home, maybe be mom's and carry on. It's their choice. I like being a mom but I also like having other things going on.

My sister in law was married at 21 and has been a stay at home wife/mom since then. Her kids are getting set to graduate and she is looking at redoing the house. She is well kept and lives the "life" most dream of but she is a positive person and does not put anyone down for not having what she has. She is very giving and does not judge anyone. In fact, she loved my purse so much and was excited I bought it at Kohls for $19. She went and purchased one. But she never talks about money or things. I think it was easier for her to stay home so he could work so much. Maybe that's the simple living angle.

Another gal, fully admits to being a kept woman and doesn't want to work because her husband makes bank and she finds all kinds of excuses not to work. She has a housekeeper, Vet that comes to the house, yard worker and many other conveniences. SHE is down right rude about and makes fun of other people for what they don't have or where they live. This women is in her 40's and trolls FB all day to make fun of people and she thinks she is so smart in putting people down. She is also competitive. I posted on FB that my son earned a small monetary award from school for academics from a local college, she had to pipe in and randomly talk about her son going to the best school in the country at $75,000 a year. WTF??? I had to drop her as a "friend" after she called my home a "starter home" and that I needed to upgrade. YIKES!!! I honestly look at women that act like this and think they are afraid to try when they got it so good but God forbid something happen to their husbands and then what? And she always thinks someone is after her husband. And, I know the very area she grew up in in NY and she pretends like it's some fancy place. It's not. She is someone very worried about status.

I don't know if this is even what you are looking for. LOL

Maybe I am not the best to talk right now..ahem...LOL

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 9:44am

I don't know Abby's friends, so I can't speak about them. I certainly can't speak for them.

I'm one of those women who never wanted to identify as a feminist because I felt like the feminist movement was really saying "women should be able to do anything they want except stay home and raise kids. That's (lazy, degrading, a waste of their time....)

if humanism weren't a religion, I'd call myself a humanist in the sense that "people should be able to make their own choices and be evaluated and rewarded on merit regardless of gender, age, pigmentation, location of birth, financial resources, etc."

so, what I wanted to do with my life: marry and raise children. 6 actually. But I fell in love with a man who met most of my "optimal" list and some things I hadn't known I wanted, and who wanted "a wife who is willing to raise our children personally" but who only wanted 3 kids, and I gladly took the job.

and parenting is a full time job. 24/7. And yes, you are always a parent, and yes, you can be a good (or even great) parent and have a full time career upside the home. But you are only actively PARENTING when you are with the child. Otherwise you are sharing that child raising role with the teacher, the coach, the babysitter or nanny, the other parent, the friend, whomever. There are probably many times that other person is less exhausted and distracted than you are and if you have chosen well, they even sometimes do a better job than you would have at that moment.

like any other job, you can throw everything you have into it, or you can do nothing as much as possible. And the results usually show.

as far as simple living? Having one parent at home definitely simplified our lives financially and logistically. Again it is about choice. You can watch tv, or you can hang the clothes on the line. You can cook from scratch or spend that time getting your nails done. Garden or go to the gym.......

We had less disposable income than if I had been working full time, but we needed less because I provided a lot of unpaid services. Dh works with guys who get their shirts "done" for $2 each. I provide basically the same service plus move the shirts from hamper through the process and back to the closet for far less. And I feel happy doing it.

According to the Maryland public school system, the SAT and a college in VA, i'm pretty smart. Over the years I've had a lot of people get angry at me for "wasting" my abilities or "not living up to my potential" or not contributing to society in the way they thought I should. don't care. My choices have brought me happiness and I feel successful and proud of my "accomplishments"

iris lilies

6-13-16, 10:36am

Marrying to give me a steady income would seem almost like FIRE ( Financially Independent Retired Early) to me and that might be attractive although of course it all depends on husband maintaining his job and also stayng in the marriage.

But having to have children to justify me getting that income stream--ugh. Nope! I would much rather work.

In general, a lot of people float through life without "figuring out what they really want to do in life." DH is one of them. In the early years of our marriage he kept saying "I can do a lot of thngs, I am a generalist" and I was skeptical, but he turned out to be right. He never had a particular passion for any one kind of job but he was always employed. If we had chldren he would have been the stanat hme parent, and he would have done a good job at that.

Also, "doing nothing" isnt a good characterization of practicing domestic skills. Keepng house in a luxurious state ( like the hand ironed shirts referenced above) takes real work and skill. Gardening, preserving, cooking--all skilled work.

Perhaps if Addy was here I might hint that I think "life coaching" is somewhat bogus work, so good for her for taking it on the road to earn money. Does she have any kind of credentials for her "life coach" status?

JaneV2.0

6-13-16, 10:51am

I never, ever wanted to be financially dependent on someone else. The very idea is anathema to me. I've always paid my own way; it only seems fair.

Alan

6-13-16, 10:55am

iris lilies

6-13-16, 10:59am

I never, ever wanted to be financially dependent on someone else. The very idea is anathema to me. I've always paid my own way; it only seems fair.

Oh agreed, I always wanted my own money. i dont really know why I wrote the above, I have never been attracted to the idea of marrying to be supported.

I silently laugh when a couple of my successful busness women friends make noise about kept women, or women who earn far less than their husbands. It is such a narrow way to define financial contributions in marriage. I always made 2-3 times what DH made yet he provides a lot of financial value to our household by fixing and building everything. I would have to hire out everything if I was single and livng here.

iris lilies

6-13-16, 11:01am

I've always seen marriage as a partnership where each person contributes their strengths, which are not always monetary. Having a stay-at-home spouse may contribute more to the family's quality of life than paid employment ever could.

yep! I just wrote the same thing after you. Defining contributions usng the narrow metric of dollars earned is limiting.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 11:02am

Marrying to give me a steady income would seem almost like FIRE ( Financially Independent Retired Early) to me and that might be attractive although of course it all depends on husband maintaining his job and also stayng in the marriage.

But having to have children to justify me getting that income stream--ugh. Nope! I would much rather work.

In general, a lot of people float through life without "figuring out what they really want to do in life." DH is one of them. In the early years of our marriage he kept saying "I can do a lot of thngs, I am a generalist" and I was skeptical, but he turned out to be right. He never had a particular passion for any one kind of job but he was always employed. If we had chldren he would have been the stanat hme parent, and he would have done a good job at that.

Also, "doing nothing" isnt a good characterization of developing domestic skills. Keepng house in a luxurious state ( like the hand ironed shirts referenced above) takes real work and skill. Hardening, preserving, cooking--all sklled work.

Perhaps if Addy was here might hint that I think "life coachng" is somewhat bogus work, so good for her for taking it on the road to earn money. Does she have any kind f credentials for her "life coach" status?

Addy studied nutrition science at a major university, much of her work is based on nutrition and fitness instruction. She is a registered dietitian and works with individuals and major institutions. But her elevator speech is that she does life coaching based nutrition and fitness and so forth.

So yeah, totally bogus. haha

Tammy

6-13-16, 11:06am

I spent the 80s at home having and raising three babies. I spent the 90s getting my degree and starting my career. I've worked full time plus overtime plus consulting plus got a masters degree on the side while working - since 1997.

Full time mom was just as much work as the rest of it.

You either work work hard raising your kids, or you work a job and pay someone else to raise your kids. Either way you're working. I don't know why we argue about it.

iris lilies

6-13-16, 11:07am

Addy studied nutrition science at a major university, much of her work is based on nutrition and fitness instruction. She is a registered dietitian and works with individuals and major institutions. But her elevator speech is that she does life coaching based nutrition and fitness and so forth.

So yeah, totally bogus. haha

ok, then she does have some credentials, many life coahches do not.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 11:11am

You either work work hard raising your kids, or you work a job and pay someone else to raise your kids. Either way you're working. I don't know why we argue about it.

I think often we argue this: "If you work hard and outsource your parenting, why did you have kids?"

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 11:39am

Well, dh had kids because he wanted them. He enjoys their company, at some ages more than others. He enjoyed watching their growth and accomplishments and coming home to a home full of family. But he did not want to do that 24/7. So he outsourced a lot of his parenting to me.

because some eople just want to pay the fees, buy the suits and goggles, show up to the swim meet finals, cheer like an idiot and take everybody out for pizza. Other people really like to be there the day the kid actually makes it all the way down the length of the pool.....

what's sad is when all the kid has is people who want to pay for the stuff, pay somebody else to do the transportation, and tell their friends how the kid placed. Those are the parents who I always wondered why they had kids. I realize it's possible they just hated swim team, but they gave the impression of having the same approach to every part of the kid's life and it made me feel like they should have bought a racehorse or something instead.

what's really sad is when all the kid has is people who don't care if they have sneakers, let alone swim lessons....

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 12:14pm

To me marrying someone who brings in the money is the equivalent of say making up some reason I could collect disability or other government bennies and not work (not that that is that easy to do). It's the EXACT same thing to me, I do not see any difference at all. So might I envy someone who has managed to scam the system and not work? Oh heck yea. I hate working, I've never liked it. But am I trying to do it? No. Now maybe if we had a universal guaranteed income or something but now, nah. The same with dating/marriage etc. - so noone I date has any money - ha! We worry about the uncertain job market together!

But the kids thing, that changes everything, there should be good solutions, like good part time jobs for professional women and so on, but of course there aren't so women are caught in the faustian bargain, do it all, or become a stay home mom etc.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 12:21pm

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 12:24pm

Ultralight

6-13-16, 12:28pm

And I think your friend seems possibly a little jealous.

Do tell.

catherine

6-13-16, 12:29pm

I've been an SAHM and a working mom, and have observed all the judgements that ANM writes about. My conclusion after watching a lifetime of my female friends deciding to do either or both of those options is: "to each her own." After over 50 years, why do we have to KEEP saying there's NO one right choice??

1) Some of the SAHMs that I know are among women I most admire in this world. Not all, mind you. There are good ones and bad ones. But the good ones are fulfilling SUCH an important calling and doing their families SUCH a wonderful service. I think of my SIL who I adore who "lived off" of my brother's dime for the past 40 years, but in return he got a pair of absolutely wonderful children, a house decorated and kept beautifully. She nurtured their social life and they have tons of friends and a very strong community base. She is just a great person. To call her a "parasite" or a "leach" is so anti-simple-living it's laughable. Alan is completely right.

2) OTOH, some women contribute to the family by answering a different call, which might be demanding in another way. They might be better off working. Their kids are often great, too. Not always--but it depends on the person. In that case, you work out different division of labor. As for me, my DH was Mr. Mom for a long time, and it worked out great. I never considered him a parasite or a lazy bum. Lazy?? Being there for 4 kids?

My own son surprised me once when he broke up with a girlfriend because she "had no ambition." I was shocked. After all those years of being the guilty working mother, I learn that my kids EXPECT their spouses to have outside interests and career choices.

Different strokes for different folks. As ANM said, let's stop the working/non-working/childbearing/those-who-choose-not-to-have-kids women-bashing. There is no right or wrong answer here.

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 12:32pm

I assume most men hate work as much as me and so therefore it is wrong to make them work anymore than they have to to support themselves just to support me. But the kids thing it changes everything.

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 12:35pm

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 12:37pm

Private sector welfare queens!

really, if one is a leftist I'm more sympathetic (and surely then one favors paid family leave!), conservatives that think stay at home moms are fine, but everyone else including single moms should just get jobs are pretty crazy - I don't know how the cognitive dissonance doesn't make their heads explode.

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 12:41pm

And you also said her partner is putting it off. She's 35, the clock is seriously ticking at this point. So, perhaps she has constructed this critique of her friends who have married and are now "avoiding figuring out what to do with their lives", when in reality they are doing what she wishes she could- settle down and have a family.

if she really wants kids, otoh she might just feel she should have kids out of social expectations and then wonder if women don't just do it to avoid thinking about other things. It's hard to really understand why people have kids, partly to relive and redo their childhoods I suppose, to give their kids a better life than they have had, so that part is kinda ....

Ultralight

6-13-16, 12:41pm

She's 35, the clock is seriously ticking at this point.

Why do you say that?

catherine

6-13-16, 12:45pm

Why do you say that?

This is why. (I see that this is actually a UK chart, but should apply to women of most countries

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/i/preconception/infertilitygraph.gif

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 12:46pm

Ultralight

6-13-16, 12:47pm

Can you explain that chart in non-math terms?

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 12:50pm

catherine

6-13-16, 12:51pm

It means that your chances of getting pregnant go from being "probably" to "maybe" when you hit 35. Then the drop-off REALLY kicks in. By the time you're 40, you only have roughly a 36% chance of getting pregnant.

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 12:51pm

Ultralight

6-13-16, 12:53pm

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 12:54pm

Can keeping a partner whom one really loves be more important than having kids to one anyway though? I think there is a bias to say having kids is more important but I'm not at all sure why. Are men like some kind of interchangeable parts in that view? Just change out one man for another?

So "try" three times. Problem solved. She'd then have a 109% chance of getting pregnant.

those probabilities are usually over a year, that's how birth control effectiveness is calculated, so 95% effective means you have a 5% chance over a year or so of getting pregnant. I don't think the chart is a very good reason to forgo birth control though, kids sometimes sneak in.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 12:54pm

He doesn't want to get married and have kids.

This in indeed obvious.

As I said he is doing what I have heard referred to a "waiting out her eggs." But that would take another decade or more. So it is not the best strategy on his part.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 12:55pm

JaneV2.0

6-13-16, 1:02pm

I've observed situations where the man--any man--is just the means to an end: marriage, financial support, children. I suppose that can work both ways.

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 1:02pm

jp1

6-13-16, 1:03pm

Well, you said she wants to have children and marry. And you also said her partner is putting it off. She's 35, the clock is seriously ticking at this point. So, perhaps she has constructed this critique of her friends who have married and are now "avoiding figuring out what to do with their lives", when in reality they are doing what she wishes she could- settle down and have a family.

I think all women should do whatever fulfills them. It seems your friend isn't experiencing the freedom of that due to her partner's choices.

When I first read the initial post earlier this morning my first thought was "if she really wants to have kids she needs to dump this guy and find one that also wants kids."

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 1:04pm

Ultralight

6-13-16, 1:06pm

You can also end up with a bunch of things you actively don't want.

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 1:08pm

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 1:08pm

When I first read the initial post earlier this morning my first thought was "if she really wants to have kids she needs to dump this guy and find one that also wants kids."

people as interchangeable parts, I'm not saying we can only love one person or something ridiculous like that, but that is really what that amounts to. There are of course many good reasons to end relationships, but ending an otherwise good relationships just to have kids ... I don't know.

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 1:13pm

iris lilies

6-13-16, 1:13pm

The title of this thread, Women getting married to avoid figuring out what to do with their lives, to me translates a little differently. Maybe women are getting married to avoid having to waste their lives doing meaningless work for money.

That's not to say all jobs are meaningless, but in our job climate many paid positions do feel rather meaningless and deplete people to the point that they'd be ineffective and much too tired to even think of having children or a real life. (That was my experience.) And if both parents have similar life-consuming jobs, truly what is the point in even having kids?

Often times workaholic personality types are naturally drawn toward less ambitious persons to have as partners because two workaholics does not a happy home make. I'm "non-ambitious" career-wise. I tried to hang with the big dogs, I went to school, and worked for "the man" and all that. I nearly had a nervous breakdown and my kids and home were completely neglected in the short time I tried this experiment. Life to me became literally pointless. This was after 16 years of being an at home parent, and working here and there doing this or that to make money for my frivolities.

My partner was a workaholic. He literally did not have time to put clean sheets on beds, plan wholesome dinners, and shuffle kids to school, help with homework, and all of the other things that make up daily life in a home. You could say his workaholism is a personality flaw, and there would have been days I'd have agreed, but it is who he is. He didn't dial it back and work less when I decided I needed to stop being "a bum" and go to school and find a good job. So I signed myself up for double the work, and for what? To fit into the current social paradigm that education and careerism is the end all be all of being human and that I cannot climb to the top of mount Maslow unless I follow that narrow view. Blah. No thanks.

So you could say I snagged a man so that I didn't have to figure out what to do with the rest of my life, or you could say I snagged a good earner for a partner (He was a dishwasher when we met haha) so that I could actually do the things that make life worth living to me, and those things are centered around homemaking and family. All of this is humorous though considering the fact that I married very young and had no designer ideas behind it aside from being completely into the whole hokey picket fence happy family ideal.

I say women should do whatever they want to do. And I think your friend seems possibly a little jealous.

love this! Yay for you!

Although I do think we all on the interwebs have to be careful not to throw the "she's just jealous" idea out there ( and you did trmper it with "possibly" and "a little."

iris lilies

6-13-16, 1:14pm

There's something mildly ironic about a life coach staying with a man who's bamboozling her.
Hahaha. Hahaha. Hahaha

well, her specialty is nutrition so manipulative men arent on her radar, maybe.

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 1:15pm

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 1:16pm

Most life coaches are basically scams, but the nutrition oriented one sounds very legit. They actually have a real knowledge base to advise people from maybe.

jp1

6-13-16, 1:20pm

Hahaha. Hahaha. Hahaha

well, her specialty is nutrition so manipulative men arent on her radar, maybe.

Yes, but he seems to be FEEDING her lines about why they can't have a kid yet...

Ultralight

6-13-16, 1:20pm

She is legit and walks it like she talks it (and she speaks three languages).

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 1:20pm

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 1:21pm

Having kids was more important to me. I don't believe there is one single person in all of the world you could love and be happily married to. And I think you have to have common goals to keep a marriage together. Kids/no kids is a big one if either if you feel strongly. So if I found a guy interesting, I let him know asap that I wanted kids. If he reacted badly, he got eliminated from the boyfriend pool.

i had a lot of guy friends. Most of my closest friends were guys. But what I was looking for was someone with similar beliefs and interests and common goals who wanted to work together to live the life I wanted to live. And I wanted good genetics. And I wanted him to be sexy, and smart, and funny, and kind, and faithful. And I found one! (And I got a bunch of stuff I hadn't even thought to ask for!). And he was looking for whatever list I fit on! Jackpot!

people settle. I had a back-up plan. It was work really hard and live at the poverty level and then have kids after 30 with a really good friend who had great genetics and no desire for kids, who would have given up his rights and stayed free and clear. He was fine with using the old fashioned method to keep the cost low - We made the deal in high school - lol! And then I met dh at 17. And he turned out to be basically perfect. So I can't judge people who settle. I've never been near their shoes.

i think Abby might be avoiding deciding what she wants to do with her life and just drifting along on inertia. She may be afraid to ask herself if she really wants marriage and kids (in which case she may have to cut this guy loose and move on) or wether she really wants this guy enough to give up marriage and kids.

iris lilies

6-13-16, 1:23pm

Yes, but he seems to be FEEDING her lines about why they can't have a kid yet...
No, that will get no laffs from me. Too pun-ny.

Next.

:~)

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 1:23pm

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 1:25pm

i think Abby might be avoiding deciding what she wants to do with her life and just drifting along on inertia. She may be afraid to ask herself if she really wants marriage and kids (in which case she may have to cut this guy loose and move on) or wether she really wants this guy enough to give up marriage and kids.

yea if it's just a vague sense of unfulfillment I don't know how you'd know that though, maybe it's that one should have had kids, and maybe it's that they should have been the artist they always wanted to be at 15 years old and and maybe it's because they should have dated someone else and maybe it's just life ...

jp1

6-13-16, 1:28pm

people as interchangeable parts, I'm not saying we can only love one person or something ridiculous like that, but that is really what that amounts to. There are of course many good reasons to end relationships, but ending an otherwise good relationships just to have kids ... I don't know.

It all comes down to how important of a goal having kids is for her. Will she be bitter with regret another ten years down the road? I agree that it's a tough decision if he is otherwise a good partner for her.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 1:31pm

So this just occurred to me.

I am fairly certain that my ex-wife is a failed version of the "I am going to marry a guy of means and then 'do a little graphic design on the side' or 'teach a few pilates classes'."

Or at least there came a point in our marriage where she uncovered this formula and realized she married the wrong man (me). lol

I remember that when we lived in Phoenix she started hanging out with these older woman. My ex at the time was about 29. She was hanging out with ladies in their 40s and 50s. These women were "artists." My ex was an aspiring artist.

These older ladies would have dinner parties with their husbands. They'd invite my ex and I over.

After a few of these, the formula became rather obvious. These women had married guys who were successful engineers, architects, and finance types. They had money and were making lots more. The women could spend all day working on their "art." And some did.

They also had a kid too, at some point. But just one, maybe two (enough to lock it down but not enough to decimate their art dreams). They also had plenty of help from nannies and such.

I actually remember clearly my then wife looking over at me and realizing that I would never be able to provide her with that kind of life.

But by then she was getting a bit long in the tooth to be able to latch on to some high-earning engineer and pretire into her art on a full-time basis.

The ironic thing is that within a year after she and I split I got multiple raises from the union, I could have afforded to outfit her with an entire studio.

pinkytoe

6-13-16, 1:32pm

I always wonder if the desire to have kids is really that strong or if it isn't about keeping up with expectations. I think as long as two people are happy with their arrangements, then they can structure it however they wish. I also have a strong belief that having a peaceful, serene, well-run home adds greatly to quality of life and if one can stay home (and wants to) and make that happen, then they should. To take advantage of a situation for one's own sake doesn't sound very admirable though. I would say most of the moms around here work at least part time. One that is a SAHM is very involved in making the community a better place as so many women did when I was growing up.

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 1:35pm

Wow! Did you guys talk about what you wanted before you got married? Did you talk about kids?

Ultralight

6-13-16, 1:36pm

Wow! Did you guys talk about what you wanted before you got married? Did you talk about kids?

Is this to me?

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 1:37pm

Yes ultralite.

i'm wondering if she started out with that goal and planned badly or lied, or if it came to her later.

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 1:39pm

Actually, if she lied, that was also bad planning.

RoseQuartz

6-13-16, 1:44pm

Ultralight

6-13-16, 1:45pm

Yes ultralite.

i'm wondering if she started out with that goal and planned badly or lied, or if it came to her later.

She did not start out with that goal, I don't think. It may well have been bad planning combined with it coming to her too late.

When I first met her she was sort of provincial and traditional. She was from a gated Christian community, a conservative place culturally and politically. She was quite adamant about having kids with me. But since she was 19 I suggested we wait 9 years, for school and careers and such.

I opened her mind to a lot of things -- I convinced her to go to college and graduate school. I encouraged her to come out of her shell, meet people, travel places, and to study art history, fine art and craft.

By about year 5 or 6 (we were together 11) she had become a totally different person than when we first met, mostly because of my mind-opening influence. She was getting into art, becoming more extroverted, traveling often, and no longer wanted kids at all. So this is who she was by year 11 of our relationship.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 1:46pm

... the spouse who stays home because they just don't want to get a job. I know plenty of men who are all about that as well.

Busters!

iris lilies

6-13-16, 1:50pm

I remember two sisters in my high school who baldly stated they wanted to marry men with money. They were not especially beautiful but they were carefully kept and fashion conscious. They were children of a
Methodist minister. I never really liked them but they somehow were part of my social circle.

So, they got married soon out of high school and being naive or stupid or both, managed to both find men who had flash but no real cash. Divorce soon followed.

That just served to cement my opinin of them as lackng skill or smarts since they were not able to sniff out the money. I always thought that if money was important, wouldnt you educate yourself on how to find it?

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 1:50pm

Ultralight

6-13-16, 1:53pm

At what point did you get married? (I'm thinking it may have been you who did not plan as well as you could have, or perhaps that both of you made a plan before you had enough information)

i used to live next to an elderly couple who married when he was 25 and she was 14. She said "I always tell him "you don't like how I turned out, too bad! You raised me!"

When we met I was 22 and she was 19.

I think of people as projects. So in some senses, perhaps I finished that project. And she knew it and was ready to strike out on her own.

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 1:54pm

My father always told me that if I married for money, I would earn it. I had a great example. My grandfather had money. His second wife got it when he died. I still believe she did not get paid enough.

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 1:59pm

Ultralight

6-13-16, 2:05pm

Ok, it was the married part I was wondering about. I guess because I think of marriage as a permanent thing, as much as anything is permanent, even though I realize it often isn't. But maybe you didn't.

We got married 5 years into the 11.

I did think it was permanent. My parents are still together. Her parents are still together.

Divorce seemed rather foreign to me.

Teacher Terry

6-13-16, 2:10pm

If your friend really wanted kids she should have left this guy 5 years ago. By not making a decision she is making one. I would have never married anyone that did not want kids because that was a major thing that I wanted. He is also being a jerk for stringing her along but surely she is not stupid and can see that.

ApatheticNoMore

6-13-16, 2:15pm

It seems like we're talking about two different things here. There's the situation where one spouse stays home for the betterment of the entire family, and the spouse who stays home because they just don't want to get a job. I know plenty of men who are all about that as well.

a thought experiment then on if one REALLY wants kids: one wins the big 'ol jackpot in the lottery, enough to never have to work again unless one wanted to. They could do anything they want: sit home and write songs and poetry, study anything with no concern for economic value, volunteer for any cause they believed in, start a permaculture farm, lay around all day, whatever, and they could work but only if they really really wanted to. In this case would one choose to have kids among the things they choose to do?

If not I suspect they might want the lifestyle of being a stay at home parent and not working more than they actually want kids ...

Ultralight

6-13-16, 2:17pm

a thought experiment then on if one REALLY wants kids: one wins the big 'ol jackpot in the lottery, enough to never have to work again unless one wanted to. They could do anything they want: sit home and write songs and poetry, study anything with no concern for economic value, volunteer for any cause they believed in, start a permaculture farm, lay around all day, whatever, and they could work but only if they really really wanted to. In this case would one choose to have kids among the things they choose to do?

If not I suspect they might want the lifestyle of being a stay at home parent and not working more than they actually want kids ...

Take'em to task! Yeah!

herbgeek

6-13-16, 2:21pm

I think of people as projects.

Ouch. I hope you don't mean it like that.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 2:23pm

Ouch. I hope you don't mean it like that.

Not entirely, but to some degree. Call it a personality flaw.

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 2:42pm

I was just thinking - my sister in law had a plan. We actually had pretty much the same plan, except I'm not sure she actually came up with the plan on her own.

she was two years behind me in school. My junior year dh and I decided we would probably get married and stopped dating other people. My senior year we got engaged, we got married the summer after I graduated, I got a job, he went to grad school, and I started saving half my pay so we could have a baby asap.

her sophomore year (the year I got engaged) she convinced her dh they should get married and increased her course load to insane in order to graduate with a double major a year early. They announced their engagement the day after my wedding ("so as not to steal my limelight" - whatever, who cares?) and got married the next summer after they graduated. He went to grad school, she got a job.

the following summer, I had a baby and she started "trying". Now, here is the irony - we were both working part time clerical type jobs - me with the baby in tow to supplement what I had saved, her to help put her dh through school. She is actually an amazing, talented artist, but she stopped doing art (even though her job was part time) never did any art shows or fairs (where she could have made good money) everything became about "why am I not pregnant?" (But no testing, too "broke")

this is went on for ten years. Both dh's got phd's and good jobs. She was "always broke, always hustling to bring in money, always wishing for kids," always miserable. I had three kids. I stared homeschooling, I fit a little time for pottery in, I became a Girl Scout leader. Hated it. Quit. Got involved with the homeschooling group.

finally, she got pregnant - still "broke" still miserable. Had the baby- exhausted, miserable, had another baby a year later, still miserable. hated being home with them. Started a playgroup. Hated having it at her house. Couldn't get them into preschool fast enough. Started them in school early, still didn't go back to her art or get a real job. Became room mom, PTA, etc. Still miserable. Became the Girl Scout leader. Hated it. Still does it. Still miserable. Always "broke".

25 years of miserable, and never once did she try changing the plan.

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 2:46pm

So UA, the project was half done and went off in the wrong direction. I'm sorry. More like an unlucky gamble than a bad plan.

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 2:49pm

Oh, and if I had won the lottery - there would have been six kids! Dh would still have chosen to work at least some and cost was his arguement for stopping at 3.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 2:53pm

...six kids! Too many.

Ultralight

6-13-16, 2:57pm

So UA, the project was half done and went off in the wrong direction. I'm sorry. More like an unlucky gamble than a bad plan.

I dunno that she'd say that. Or think that. I dunno that I would either.

For some reason my relationships often go this way. I meet someone. I open their mind to all sorts of things, I encourage them, I nudge them. They awaken and do things they did not think they could do. I push them and facilitate the expansion of their comfort zone.

They blossom and grow and develop.

Then they decide, for one reason or another, that our relationship ran its course.

After that, I often get updates from them or mutual friends. Much of what they got from their time with me sticks. Not all of it, but much of it. :)

Chicken lady

6-13-16, 3:03pm

I meant the marrying was an unlucky gamble. I've had men (and women) like that in my life. But I didn't marry them. I married dh, who seems content with however my journey goes, as we continue to head in the same basic direction. ("Oh, we're taking a boat now. Didn't know there was going to be water, but ok..." - metaphorically of course.)

iris lilies

6-13-16, 5:30pm

?..

i used to live next to an elderly couple who married when he was 25 and she was 14. She said "I always tell him "you don't like how I turned out, too bad! You raised me!"
This is hilarious!

jp1

6-13-16, 10:13pm

I dunno that she'd say that. Or think that. I dunno that I would either.

For some reason my relationships often go this way. I meet someone. I open their mind to all sorts of things, I encourage them, I nudge them. They awaken and do things they did not think they could do. I push them and facilitate the expansion of their comfort zone.

They blossom and grow and develop.

Then they decide, for one reason or another, that our relationship ran its course.

After that, I often get updates from them or mutual friends. Much of what they got from their time with me sticks. Not all of it, but much of it. :)

Maybe next time you need to find someone who's already at that point? I realize it wouldn't be a project, but it would still be a fun relationship. And hopefully they wouldn't grow out of you. Young people who haven't fully "found themselves" (gaaack what a 1970's phrase...) are not good candidates for relationships. Once they find themselves there's a real risk that they may find that you aren't what they want in life.

Karma

6-13-16, 11:56pm

Why do we always feel a need to judge what others are doing? One spouse stays home with the children when money isn't a factor sounds like a positive not something to put down. It sounds like a more simple life to me.

ApatheticNoMore

6-14-16, 3:12am

The thing is most spouses aren't going to have the money to support kids as a sole earner anyway especially in this bad economy. It's a real tough economy for most humans out there now. Brutal. But for a few it happens. It seems a horrible reason to date or not date someone, but if you help make them successfully by supporting them through grad school or something, or they just happen to do really well in their career etc. then there is that.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 6:29am

ANM - I worked when we needed me to work. I didn't choose dh because he could afford to keep me home (he was a broke grad student who needed me to feed him when we got married), I chose dh because he wanted me to be home when we had kids. It was a priority for both of us. I knew a woman when my kids were 5,3, & 1 who told me "I wish I could stay home with my kid."

she had one child who was in school, a big brick house with a pool, a two y.o. SUV, new designer clothes with many matching shoes, a fresh cut color and style every six weeks, professionally maintained fancy nails, girls night out,expensive jewelry, fast food, etc. she also had the lesser income. I wanted to say "no you don't." But I didn't. I said "well, I have to drive a ten y.o. Station wagon..." And left her an opening. It honestly didn't occur to me until just now that her dh could have been an obstruction to that goal.

WE made choices that kept me home. we also bought dh serious life insurance, knowing that if anything happened to him I was going to need some time to get back into a decent job, and term for me that would cover good childcare until they started school. Because the added expense of me wasn't enough for that.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 7:22am

Maybe next time you need to find someone who's already at that point? I realize it wouldn't be a project, but it would still be a fun relationship. And hopefully they wouldn't grow out of you. Young people who haven't fully "found themselves" (gaaack what a 1970's phrase...) are not good candidates for relationships. Once they find themselves there's a real risk that they may find that you aren't what they want in life.

Not many people are "already at that point."

But I can also take some pride in helping women find themselves and to become better than they have even thought they could.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 7:22am

Why do we always feel a need to judge what others are doing?

Red alert! We have an anti-judger here! ;)

Ultralight

6-14-16, 7:25am

she had one child who was in school, a big brick house with a pool, a two y.o. SUV, new designer clothes with many matching shoes, a fresh cut color and style every six weeks, professionally maintained fancy nails, girls night out,expensive jewelry, fast food, etc. she also had the lesser income. I wanted to say "no you don't." But I didn't. I said "well, I have to drive a ten y.o. Station wagon..." And left her an opening. It honestly didn't occur to me until just now that her dh could have been an obstruction to that goal.

Definitely his fault.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 7:34am

I didn't say that, I didn't even think it then, but suppose he really wanted the house, pool, expensively maintained wife...

It's possible that if she told him she was quitting her job to stay home with the kid and they were going to have to sell the house and her car and she was going to let her hair grow out and return to it's normal color and stop having her nails done, he would have said "no way. I'm not going to support you so I can live in a crappy house with somebody who stays home all day and lets herself go." It might have been a direction he wasn't willing to go with her. And then what? You don't get divorced and become a SAHM.

Miss Cellane

6-14-16, 8:10am

I promise this is not "Clickbait."

But nonetheless, she went to a string of weddings over the past 5 years -- many, many weddings. As she said: "It was just girlfriend after girlfriend after girlfriend. They got married!"

Then she said they often say things like: "I am going to quit my job now and teach a little yoga part-time and maybe do some freelance graphic design." Addy said these are "code words for doing nothing."

Apparently they pop out a kid or two and then become stay-at-home-moms.
Addy suspects that they do this to avoid having to figure out what they really want to do in life or to avoid having to actually apply themselves to something.

Their husbands all make serious bank. So they are well-kept women and get plenty of assistance for childcare.

Thoughts on her observations?

It is possible that these women who have a baby or two and then become stay-at-home moms really just wanted to be stay-at-home moms all along. But given the push today for all women to have a career outside the home, they felt they had to get a job and work outside the home. Then when the children came along, they were able to do what they really wanted to do. Not "doing nothing," but "doing what fulfills them."

Some people like running a household and looking after the kids. It's possible, to tie in simple living here, to save a lot of money if you have one person focusing on things like cooking from scratch, comparison shopping for large purchases, monitoring energy usage, making small repairs around the house, growing vegetables, etc. Some people just enjoy being with their kids, watching them grow up day to day. While other people love their kids, but also need the fulfillment that a job outside the home gives them.

In addition, people have different energy levels. As a single person with no kids, I can manage day to day and week to week. If I were expected to do the shopping, laundry, housecleaning, etc., for a family of four or more, I'm not sure I would have the energy to do that and hold down a 40 hour a week job. I'd be a tired out, super-stressed mess. Knowing myself, I could do one job or the other well, but not both at the same time. But I have a sister-in-law who appears to run her household of 5 by occasionally twitching her little finger, while working as a doctor 50+ hours a week. And the kids and my brother are happy and content, well-fed with meals she cooks from scratch, always have clean clothes, the house is never a mess (well, maybe on a rainy Saturday afternoon), and the kids are doing well in school.

People are different. What's easy for you is hard for me. What appeals to you is a turn-off for me. Things that energize one person exhaust the person next to them. You like chocolate, he likes vanilla.

Maybe if we could stop judging other people, maybe if we could stop the endless comparison of ourselves vs. the neighbors, we could learn to just live our lives the best way for us. Not what society, our parents, the latest slick magazine says we should do, but what our hearts tell us is the way to go.

Just because I do something differently from you, does not mean that I am better or worse than you. It means I'm different. Different isn't good or bad. It's just different.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 2:23pm

This is why. (I see that this is actually a UK chart, but should apply to women of most countries

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/i/preconception/infertilitygraph.gif

I have been reflecting on this. I wonder how realistic it is.

ToomuchStuff

6-14-16, 2:59pm

I am wondering if he is trying to avoid the "have already had the vasectomy" argument, or if she is considering the grabbing the condom and doing the invert/insert thing. Women have been known to do that as well as stop taking birth control and there seems to be some control issues here. (may not be waiting out eggs, but another view)
But if they are both making $80K as you say (not combined, but as written), then at $160K, savings is their fault, and it sounds as if they are living a lifestyle beyond "their" stated goals. (wondering how real of discussions they have had)
She should be deciding if kids are more important as a goal then "this man". This relationship song says it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZMIgheZro

Hope this was trying to figure out her conflicting values, and not asking you to father her kids.

iris lilies

6-14-16, 3:33pm

UL, to quote you "are you jerking my chain?"

SURELY you know that fertility drops as women age.

This chart may not be the perfect representation of human female fertility, but it is a decent apporximation.

Now I suppose that you will provide me with anecdotal instances of women who too easily got prefnant when they were 40 or 42 or even 46 (quelle horrors!) Well, I know a fair number of over 40 moms too. So what?

ApatheticNoMore

6-14-16, 3:59pm

Ultralight

6-14-16, 4:01pm

And then of course BAM.

Baby After Middle-age?

mschrisgo2

6-15-16, 2:40am

"Women getting married in order to avoid figuring out what to do with their lives?"

... is this worse than going to graduate school to avoid figuring out where and how one would like to work?

Frankly, it seems to me that really we need to teach young people this very important strategy:

"Some times you just gotta stand still and be uncomfortable while you figure it all out."

... said my 17 yr old grandson, upon observing his brothers, 2 and 4 years older, as they launch themselves into the grown-up world.

ApatheticNoMore

6-15-16, 3:01am

... is this worse than going to graduate school to avoid figuring out where and how one would like to work?

quite possibly ... lots of threads about divorce recently ...

Although this thread seemed more about having kids to avoid figuring out to do with one's life rather than marrying which are two separate things, one can certainly do one without the other.

But while graduate school might give one time to mature it's hard to see how it would help in figuring out where and how one would like to work as it's not a workplace (unless you can get into academia itself and that's a very hard road).

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 7:17am

My son in law took a break from school with two classes to go and wandered around Germany. He came back to be with dd (he wasn't my son in law yet) and she insisted he finish the degree. They moved in together, he graduated and got a part time job at the library for a year. They just got married and he is going to student teach in the fall to turn his art degree into a teaching license. He talks about grad school. Dd has a good job. She's hoping he'll decide to be a "househusband"/SAHD.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 7:18am

... she is considering the grabbing the condom and doing the invert/insert thing.

What?

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 7:31am

You use the condom as a sperm collection device, turning it inside out as you help any little swimmers that survive on their way. Then you claim it must have leaked. Great start for a kid. >8)

Ultralight

6-15-16, 7:54am

I think that the chart probably overstates it as well, and you wonder why over 40 women suddenly end up preggers when they decide to chance it with birth control, probably looking at the chart thinking: birth control, who needs that? And then of course BAM.

My off-again/on-again girlfriend is 41. She swears she is too old to get pregnant. I am like: "Without that nuva ring I could get you preggers in literally two minutes."

She is like: "You could certainly complete the attempt in that time frame!"

:doh:

Ultralight

6-15-16, 7:55am

You use the condom as a sperm collection device, turning it inside out as you help any little swimmers that survive on their way. Then you claim it must have leaked. Great start for a kid. >8)

This is really a popular technique? Huh...

sweetana3

6-15-16, 8:00am

Ask the 40-50 year olds with babies just what happened. :-)

Ultralight

6-15-16, 8:08am

Ask the 40-50 year olds with babies just what happened. :-)

That condom trick is ubiquitous, huh? Jeeez... it seems a little dishonest.

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 8:42am

A "little" dishonest? Welcome to the world kid! Your father didn't want you and your mother can't be trusted. But I'm sure it will work out great!

Suzanne

6-15-16, 8:46am

I'm not sure that it's fair to call life coaches "bogus". There are plenty of people who sorta know what they need to do, but just can't quite get the plan together, or just can't quite get started. A life coach can not only help with this, but can provide accountability and ongoing feedback. I think this is particularly the case with nutrition/health/weight issues, an area in which Addy seems well-qualified. Despite my own knowledge of my body and of nutrition, I used the nutritionist at my university as a life coach this year, because I couldn't shed the 10lb I'd gained during the previous semester, and my weight was still creeping upward (post-menopausal, slowing metabolism, very high stress load as I wrote my thesis). We talked about my personal biochemistry, assessed my diet together, and fine-tuned it. Instead of a standard sheet, I got a customized one that took my quirks into consideration. I weighed-in every two weeks. I lost a grand total of 4lb over 4 months. I was able to accept that my new set-point is higher than my old one and stop stressing about it; I should add that even at my heaviest I was still well within the healthy weight range for my age and height. Ironically, things suddenly changed in my body, as if had just been re-calibrating, and I dropped another 7lb!! Of course, this may be due to my having completed my thesis and graduated, and being promoted from archaeological technician to archaeologist, with associated pay increase. My stress level has plummeted. I'm not eating any differently or exercising any more.

The point is that, for me, having a life coach proved beneficial.

iris lilies

6-15-16, 9:43am

My off-again/on-again girlfriend is 41. She swears she is too old to get pregnant...

:doh:

That is just ignorant.

JaneV2.0

6-15-16, 10:04am

Yes, several of my friends are the offspring of forty-something mothers--not unusual among children of healthy women.

iris lilies

6-15-16, 10:19am

Yes, several of my friends are the offspring of forty-something mothers--not unusual among children of healthy women.
Yes, both my brother and my brother in law are OOPS babies of 40 year old moms.

ToomuchStuff

6-15-16, 10:39am

That condom trick is ubiquitous, huh? Jeeez... it seems a little dishonest.

A "little" dishonest? Welcome to the world kid! Your father didn't want you and your mother can't be trusted. But I'm sure it will work out great!

I first heard about it in a court case. There was also a local case where a guy offered to help a lesbian couple have a kid. Both (as well as others I have heard about), dealt with child support.
The worst one, was the case where two were getting divorced and the judge put that on hold until the kid was to be born. The guy that was the husband, turned out to not be the father, but the judge didn't let him go for his money back, and he had child support, as the case drug on so long.

iris lilies

6-15-16, 11:46am

There was a scene in Ray Donovan (a tv show about a guy who is a fixer of rich people's problems) where a super star athelete slept with a groupie. The used condum was carefully gathered up so that groupie could not use sperm to get pregnant and get the athelete for $$$ child support.

It is a thing I guess, lthough certainly dramatized here.

JaneV2.0

6-15-16, 2:23pm

peggy

6-15-16, 2:27pm

I've always seen marriage as a partnership where each person contributes their strengths, which are not always monetary. Having a stay-at-home spouse may contribute more to the family's quality of life than paid employment ever could.

I agree. We were married a good 10 years before we had kids but once they came, that was my job. And I did a fantastic job, I must say. The kids were wanted and the job welcomed. Was it always easy? No, but it wasn't a scream fest either.
But I was judged the whole way, sure. Judged for not having kids (What, you've been married how many years and no kids?) and after (How can you simply give up the career you worked so hard for and stay home?)

More judgments: "You won't let your kids do that?" or "You let your kids do that?" or, one of my favorites.."Your husband EXPECTS you to clean/cook/laundry/child care/garden/whatever?" Well, yeah...he does. It's my job, ok. He has his jobs too. Mind you, these judgments were mostly leveled at me. No one wondered how he couldn't/could allow something with the kids. Or the house.

sometimes it could be less than fun, and I'm the only one in my household, apparently, who knows how to change the toilet paper roll. >8)
So, I guess we can add this latest judgement to the list...Having kids to avoid life.
Women are judged no matter what they do. In all fairness, men are judged too, on different levels. Just not for every blessed thing they do!

JaneV2.0

6-15-16, 2:32pm

My observation is that it's mostly other women doing the judging. Thus the concept of "mommy wars." Glad I skipped all that.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 2:35pm

"What other people think of you is none of your business." -- Daniel Suelo

ApatheticNoMore

6-15-16, 2:44pm

peggy

6-15-16, 3:13pm

My observation is that it's mostly other women doing the judging. Thus the concept of "mommy wars." Glad I skipped all that.

This is true.

"What other people think of you is none of your business." -- Daniel Suelo

This is also true.

peggy

6-15-16, 3:31pm

there is probably a trade off between having kids and giving attention to other things, maybe one's self-development, maybe one's romantic relationship, one's friendships etc. - just because of time and there only being 24 hours in a day. And so since it's time draining it *could* be used an escape (that's different than it always and ever is)

So yea there probably is some real trade off there. If it's LESS demanding than the average 40 hour a week job then maybe not - because that's usually the alternative to being a stay at home mom (I think we should have more alternatives - at least more part-time work, but we don't, it's really a very limited society we live in). But if it really is less demanding what is all the fuss stay at home moms make up being a mom being "the hardest job they ever had" about. Both can't be true.

Certainly working full time AND raising kids is trading off doing almost anything else, I really have no doubt about that one and then yes having kids precludes other things in life and so in some cases might be used as an escape (it also might be deeply desired and the best way to make it work financially). More energy than I've ever had for sure.

I don't know if it's an easy comparison...outside work and home work. It's different. Sure, you might have to scramble to get that report in on time, and maybe put in a few extra hours at the office, but if your co-worker barfs you aren't expected to clean it up, and them. Or juggle each co-workers special diet/allergies. And even though your office job may be a grind and hard, there is a quitting point. The clock turns and you can go home. Not so with a home job. The clock never stops, and you can just about bet any barf/poop/tears will arrive after 10 pm.
So, it may not be as stressful, or maybe just not as obviously stressful. And just because someone seems good and seamless at their job (either office or home) doesn't mean it isn't hard or stressful, or full of barf/poop/tears.
So it's really hard to stand on one side of the street and watch the folks on the other just drinking beer and laughing. Chances are, when you stop watching and go home, the folks on the other pick up the broom and shovel and get back to work. And work until 2AM.
I stood on both sides of the street. Both have pros and cons. I preferred the home job just because that's what I preferred. And my husband did too, cause my taking care of all the things home and family gave him the comfort of real down time when he wasn't at work. And his work was stressful.

I'll tell you who I feel sorry for. it's the ones who have the kids and home and then realize it isn't what they wanted at all. You can quit/change jobs or move, but you can't quit kids. At least women can't quit kids. Men can.
Yes, yes, I know they shouldn't. But they can, and they do. With surprisingly little fallout.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:33pm

You can quit/change jobs or move, but you can't quit kids. At least women can't quit kids. Men can.
Yes, yes, I know they shouldn't. But they can, and they do. With surprisingly little fallout.

Come on, seriously?

LDAHL

6-15-16, 4:26pm

Anyone who thinks raising kids is "avoiding life" would seem to be indicating that they understand neither kids nor life very well.

I would posit that raising a child puts you in life up to your chin.

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 5:41pm

Peggy, my heart daughter's mom quit her kids. Just dropped them at grandmas and went on with her life. So yes, women can do that too.

razz

6-15-16, 6:05pm

Ultralight

6-15-16, 6:07pm

Peggy, my heart daughter's mom quit her kids. Just dropped them at grandmas and went on with her life. So yes, women can do that too.

But she will be judged for it! The man won't! She will have to pay child support. The man won't. If she doesn't pay child support then she will go to jail. A guy who does not pay child support will not go to jail, he'll be issued a dozen cupcakes by the government.

Just so little fall out for a man who quits being a dad.

ApatheticNoMore

6-15-16, 6:19pm

You really can't argue with someone who thinks hiding from the law (paying child support) is the same as trying to hide from your own body and what is growing inside there. One is possible in reality, the other is not.

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 6:35pm

Actually, if we're talking about before the child is born, it is ONLY the woman who has any control. Had a lot of interesting conversations about that with my son when he was growing up.

bae

6-15-16, 9:58pm

This whole thread is so ... well.... you know....

peggy

6-16-16, 4:25pm

But she will be judged for it! The man won't! She will have to pay child support. The man won't. If she doesn't pay child support then she will go to jail. A guy who does not pay child support will not go to jail, he'll be issued a dozen cupcakes by the government.

Just so little fall out for a man who quits being a dad.

Oh give me a break, UL. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Simply paying child support isn't being with your kids. The money part isn't equal to half the parenting job.
Women ARE judged way more harshly if they 'move on', even if they pay child support. But guys, they do move on and date and maybe marry without the 'burden' of actual kids waiting at home to eat and stuff.
In any group of divorced dads, the percentage who actually have charge of the kids, full time, is very small, and society expects that and doesn't think negatively of them. And if they do have the kids, society assumes the mother was 'unfit' or dead. Women are not allowed, by society, to simply 'move on' or leave their 'old' family for a new one. And I don't mean financially, which you seem to equate with parenting.
It does happen, but we all have our private (and not so private) thoughts on what 'kind' of woman would do that.

Ultralight

6-16-16, 5:07pm

Simply paying child support isn't being with your kids. The money part isn't equal to half the parenting job.

Well... I think it depends on how much a dad has to pay.

Women ARE judged way more harshly if they 'move on', even if they pay child support. But guys, they do move on and date and maybe marry without the 'burden' of actual kids waiting at home to eat and stuff.

How do you know women are judged more harshly?

In any group of divorced dads, the percentage who actually have charge of the kids, full time, is very small, and society expects that and doesn't think negatively of them.

I wonder how many dads asked for custody but were denied by the courts...

ApatheticNoMore

6-16-16, 5:11pm

Yea paying seems a small part indeed.

Ultralight

6-16-16, 5:23pm

Somehow I doubt that a dude just walks out and then mails a $50 check each month.

jp1

6-16-16, 6:44pm

How do you know women are judged more harshly?

Women are judged more harshly for pretty much everything. Why would this be any different?

Ultralight

6-17-16, 6:53am

Men are not judged harshly?

Chicken lady

6-17-16, 7:32am

Seriously? Try this statement out on some people. " She's a really good mom. She always pays her child support on time and she always shows up for visitation and takes them on a really cool vacation every summer. She even comes to school stuff when she doesn't have to." Watch what happens when you turn mom into dad.

perhaps you have surrounded yourself with spectacularly enlightened friends. Try it on some random coworkers.

Ultralight

6-17-16, 7:52am

Are dads who stay at home judged differently than moms who stay at home?

Chicken lady

6-17-16, 8:01am

Yup. They generally get the same response I got from the "feminist" girlfriend of dh close friend "it's nice that you can stay home with the baby I guess." ( unspoken Subtext "if that's how you want to waste your life."). People question their masculinity, wonder if they can't find a job, think they are lazy.

the stay at home dads I have known have been some of the best parents I've known - it's something you really have to want to do. You get very little support from society, and you lose a lot of your friends because they can't relate to you anymore. People think something must be wrong with a guy who would give up his career to hang out with his kids.

Ultralight

6-17-16, 8:31am

Perhaps everyone -- men and women -- are judged harshly but it all depends on context?

Ultralight

6-17-16, 8:40am

Nah... men are never judged.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2016/06/17/how-a-dad-shapes-his-daughters-lifelong-relationship-with-love/

LDAHL

6-17-16, 9:18am

Nah... men are never judged.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2016/06/17/how-a-dad-shapes-his-daughters-lifelong-relationship-with-love/

When in doubt, blame the parents.

Ultralight

6-17-16, 9:25am

When in doubt, blame the parents.

It is an excellent go-to when you need it. Very handy!

jp1

6-17-16, 11:14am

I was reading about a study where people had to learn something on a computer and then take a test on it. Another computer, using a human voice, was "supervising" the instructor computer and then provided feedback on the learning process after the study participant took a verbal test it gave. The study was broken into two groups, one had a male voiced supervisor computer, the other a female voice. The participants were then asked a series of questions rating the supervising computer's comments about how they did. The participants (both male and female), by a significant percentage, judged the supervising computer more harshly when it was the female voiced computer than they did the male voiced computer, even though the feedback given was exactly the same.

Ultralight

6-17-16, 11:27am