View Full Version : 9 to 1.
Ultralight
6-28-16, 3:40pm
They hired three new researchers at my work. All three new hires are women. I am the only guy. One guy; nine women total.
Times change...
Usually, they do that so they can pay them less. Maybe that doesn't apply to government jobs.
Ultralight
6-28-16, 3:46pm
Actually, the women here in my department get paid better than the men. The other guy that was working here recently left because they were paying him about $5,000 less than everyone else (and about $2,000 less than me). So he got another job; he was surly about it.
Ultralight
6-28-16, 3:58pm
Also: This dude was the most productive employee. His productivity numbers towered over everyone else. I was usually second or third.
He was also the first to volunteer for assignments and he had a Master's degree, which not many folks have here.
iris lilies
6-28-16, 9:04pm
Also: This dude was the most productive employee. His productivity numbers towered over everyone else. I was usually second or third.
He was also the first to volunteer for assignments and he had a Master's degree, which not many folks have here.
Vaginas are important. Its our turn.
Ultralight
6-29-16, 6:56am
Vaginas are important.
I agree!
Its our turn.
And you'll be voting for Billary.
iris lilies
6-29-16, 7:36am
I agree!
And you'll be voting for Billary.
haha, nope. They are not THAT important.
Ultralight
6-29-16, 7:39am
I was thinking that this demographic make up precludes me from advancing.
I was thinking that this demographic make up precludes me from advancing.
Yes, if you take a defeatist attitude and stop trying.
I was thinking that this demographic make up precludes me from advancing.
Sexist.
Ultralight
6-29-16, 7:54am
I am not upset about it. I am not trying to advance anyway.
I am not trying to advance anyway.
Clearly. You often say you are bored, and you are one of the most prolific posters during working hours. Your employer is already not getting the full value for what they pay you.
Have you considered:
Take half of the time you spend here poking sharp sticks at people and do one of the following:
- go to your boss and ask for more work
- network with people in other department (ie make relationships, go out to lunch) to see if there is a different department that would suit you better.
- streamline a process
- create a training program for a tool or a process
Ah right. That takes effort. Much easier to play the victim card, and you can be morally smug that The Man (or is this case, The Woman) is doing it to you.
Ultralight
6-29-16, 9:02am
Clearly. You often say you are bored, and you are one of the most prolific posters during working hours. Your employer is already not getting the full value for what they pay you.
Have you considered:
Take half of the time you spend here poking sharp sticks at people and do one of the following:
- go to your boss and ask for more work
- network with people in other department (ie make relationships, go out to lunch) to see if there is a different department that would suit you better.
- streamline a process
- create a training program for a tool or a process
Ah right. That takes effort. Much easier to play the victim card, and you can be morally smug that The Man (or is this case, The Woman) is doing it to you.
1. I am second or third most productive on the team. I am also the only one who comes up with new ideas (or any ideas at all) to take on the challenges here in the department. My boss has told me this and thanked me, despite never using any of my ideas. haha! But she says: "No one else even offers anything."
2. I don't want to work here, so I am enrolled in classes to start in the fall to get into a different profession. We'll see how that pans out.
3. I have got things pretty streamlined, which is why I chat on here.
4. I am not really the creating a training program tool or process type. Besides, this is just data entry/data transfer 95% of the time. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Yes, I post on here a lot. And you are the richer for it. Otherwise you'd be bored.
I work in a field and department that is overwhelmingly female. Also with my summer staff I am the only totally white person, everyone is hispanic except the one staff person who is Phillipino. So I am gender majority and racial minority. I also started working in the 80's so plenty of sexism in that era!
My mindset now is to not take everything that is unfair as sexist. I am hoping that it is really changing overall, I have had one issue in this department I saw as sexist in 5 years ( a couple men saying things in meetings that were praised and female colleagues got in trouble for saying same things). However I see favoritism and unfairness. I am a racial minority however I haven't felt a reverse trend, there are more white staff the higher up the ladder but not heavily skewed one way or another.
Each is a case by case basis, it sucks when you are the one with the higher education and you watch people get paid more and move up. Sometimes it seems to affect me that I am not in a buddy network with everyone and I have to work pretty hard to get noticed (being quiet doesn't always help but since being super outgoing is not natural for me it comes out all weird anyway). However unless I can point to a factor of sexism then I will call it plain old unfairness.
ToomuchStuff
6-29-16, 10:43am
I was thinking that this demographic make up precludes me from advancing.
Why?
Another option, think Wheaties.
1. I am second or third most productive on the team. I am also the only one who comes up with new ideas (or any ideas at all) to take on the challenges here in the department. My boss has told me this and thanked me, despite never using any of my ideas. haha! But she says: "No one else even offers anything."
2. I don't want to work here, so I am enrolled in classes to start in the fall to get into a different profession. We'll see how that pans out.
3. I have got things pretty streamlined, which is why I chat on here.
4. I am not really the creating a training program tool or process type. Besides, this is just data entry/data transfer 95% of the time. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Yes, I post on here a lot. And you are the richer for it. Otherwise you'd be bored.
1. Is it an honest thanking, or a sarcastic, thanks now go aways thanks?
2. Are the classes paid for, or are you adding to your long student debt? Do you actually have a direction that your taking, or did you dart board your classes to see if you might like something? (cart before the horse)
3. If your at work and your not working, it is still theft. (not just your time, but if it affects any of your coworkers, their time as well. I get so tired of being late from (redacted due to TOS), causing me to get off late, because they were playing with their phones.
4. A job a robot will replace soon enough. We only have to get on building a robot to do the posting part, or have lives to keep us from getting bored.!Splat!
mschrisgo2
6-29-16, 1:30pm
When I saw 9 to 1, I thought those were going to be your summer work hours, lol.
When I saw 9 to 1, I thought those were going to be your summer work hours, lol.
No, I think 9 to 11 would be more like it in ULA's case. ZING!!!
They hired three new researchers at my work. All three new hires are women. I am the only guy. One guy; nine women total.
You're a straight guy. I don't see the problem. Now if it were my work group going all female but for me...
Ultralight
6-30-16, 7:18am
Why?
Another option, think Wheaties.
Nope. I am just your run of the mill cis, straight guy.
1. Is it an honest thanking, or a sarcastic, thanks now go aways thanks?
Well, I actually had my annual review yesterday. Apparently I had the fewest mistakes of anyone on the team over the past year.
2. Are the classes paid for, or are you adding to your long student debt? Do you actually have a direction that your taking, or did you dart board your classes to see if you might like something? (cart before the horse)
Classes are free because I work for the university. I am taking social work classes at the MSW level. I am taking two classes to feel it out. If I don't like it I will stop after the first two. If I like it I can continue on and even take 3 classes per semester.
3. If your at work and your not working, it is still theft. (not just your time, but if it affects any of your coworkers, their time as well. I get so tired of being late from (redacted due to TOS), causing me to get off late, because they were playing with their phones.
I don't have a cell phone. And besides, I'd say my employer steals from me by not paying me enough for my time. But it is kind of you to stick up for all the exploited employers out there! Stockholm Syndrome!
4. A job a robot will replace soon enough. We only have to get on building a robot to do the posting part, or have lives to keep us from getting bored.!Splat!
Yes, a robot or a part-time student employee will have my job soon enough. Then you can rest easy knowing that another employer has been rescued from all the suffering it was enduring by overpaid, lazy workers. LOL
Ultralight
6-30-16, 7:19am
You're a straight guy. I don't see the problem. Now if it were my work group going all female but for me...
What does my str8ness have to do with it in this context?
Teacher Terry
6-30-16, 12:32pm
check out the employment stats and pay for SW's. In some states it is awful even with a master's and in others there is a ton of work. Interesting choice for you to make. Since one of my masters is that one make sure you like working with people to help them better their lives, won't mind working with court ordered people or want to do therapy.
Ultralight
6-30-16, 12:39pm
check out the employment stats and pay for SW's. In some states it is awful even with a master's and in others there is a ton of work. Interesting choice for you to make. Since one of my masters is that one make sure you like working with people to help them better their lives, won't mind working with court ordered people or want to do therapy.
I am not passionate about it. What else can I do though?
If you like judging people, social work will be right up your alley--so many opportunities! :devil:
ApatheticNoMore
6-30-16, 12:43pm
:) and so many labels!
iris lilies
6-30-16, 1:33pm
If you like judging people, social work will be right up your alley--so many opportunities! :devil:
Jane, had to read this twice since I thought to myself "wait a minutes iris, when did you post this?"
Jane, had to read this twice since I thought to myself "wait a minutes iris, when did you post this?"
Separated at birth...
I am not passionate about it. What else can I do though?
Not sure I'd pick that field then. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it one of those "calling" kind of careers where the rewards of helping people outweigh the low pay?
Maybe you could do what Dave Wampler did: find a tiny house on a lake where you could fish and have very low living expenses. You could start up and administer a simple living website with books/simple living paraphernalia, conduct classes as you have been, and do freelance data entry. (I'm not sure exactly what kind of data work you do--sorry--but whatever it is, can you be a subcontractor?)
Not sure I'd pick that field then. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it one of those "calling" kind of careers where the rewards of helping people outweigh the low pay?
Maybe you could do what Dave Wampler did: find a tiny house on a lake where you could fish and have very low living expenses. You could start up and administer a simple living website with books/simple living paraphernalia, conduct classes as you have been, and do freelance data entry. (I'm not sure exactly what kind of data work you do--sorry--but whatever it is, can you be a subcontractor?)
He has an indentured servitude/college loan debt to work off.
I think I'd go into criminal justice/crime scene investigation or something related. But that would probably take a whole new degree. On the other hand, I'd have stayed with library science/information technology. I was offered a social work position out of college; I just laughed at the idea. The blind leading the blind...
He has an indentured servitude/college loan debt to work off.
If he could find someone to pay him to post to Internet discussion forums on company time, he'd be set.
He has an indentured servitude/college loan debt to work off.
Oh, yeah, I forgot :(
Teacher Terry
6-30-16, 3:00pm
If you are not passionate about it you won't like it. It also requires you to not be judgemental. People will do things etc that you definitely won't agree with. At one point I worked with abused kids and their families and that was tough. I would interview some social workers that work in different areas and ask all about their jobs. You need a MSW (another degree) to work in this field. Also look up the job outlook unless you intend to move to where ever the jobs are. How about getting certified to teach at the high school level? It is usually very quick since you have 3 other degrees. Also some school districts are so short of jobs that they will give you a temporary certification so you can start teaching immediately.
Ultralight
6-30-16, 3:05pm
I think I'd go into criminal justice/crime scene investigation or something related.
Interesting suggestion. Why?
Interesting suggestion. Why?
Because it interests me, and it's useful. I enjoy applied science/technology and working alone.
Ultralight
6-30-16, 3:16pm
Because it interests me, and it's useful. I enjoy applied science/technology and working alone.
Oh, for you. I read that wrong. I thought you were suggesting it to me. haha
Yeah, that might have been a great fit for you!
ApatheticNoMore
6-30-16, 3:21pm
Because it interests me, and it's useful.
most jobs are useless (social work it depends, I have found most *therapy* pretty useless but if a social worker can convince parents to stop beating their kids etc. then it's all good). So I get the appeal of not having a useless job, since it's rare, but the dead bodies would creep me out.
I enjoy applied science/technology and working alone.
I enjoy applied science, I don't like working entirely alone, it's lonely, but the only real alternative in the work place is some super dominant position really. So meh ok of those choices ... I like working alone thanks.
If he could find someone to pay him to post to Internet discussion forums on company time, he'd be set.
Well there is a job category called Social Media Manager, but I don't think any company would allow inflammatory posts and pissing off customers, so I guess that is out too.
Ultralight
6-30-16, 4:26pm
Well there is a job category called Social Media Manager, but I don't think any company would allow inflammatory posts and ----ing off customers, so I guess that is out too.
Can't you control your emotions?
ToomuchStuff
6-30-16, 8:27pm
Classes are free because I work for the university. I am taking social work classes at the MSW level. I am taking two classes to feel it out. If I don't like it I will stop after the first two. If I like it I can continue on and even take 3 classes per semester.
.
I don't have a cell phone. And besides, I'd say my employer steals from me by not paying me enough for my time. But it is kind of you to stick up for all the exploited employers out there! Stockholm Syndrome!
We already know you like to take classes, that isn't the point.
If you don't like your job and feel your not being paid enough, I would give the same recommendation as both an employer and someone else, FIND ANOTHER. You agreed to the pay.
I am not passionate about it. What else can I do though?
Physically talk to people about what they do. See if some will let you come visit their work, etc. Try to find something that does interest you and don't be so smart :moon: to those that you talk to. You could surprise us and find you like something much better and will make enough money to pay your own bills, rather then indentured servitude.
Ultralight
6-30-16, 8:44pm
You agreed to the pay.
LOL. Seriously. I laugh at how either ignorant or naive this statement is. Welcome to Earth, ToomuchStuff. This must be your first day here!
(Note: I did not say you were ignorant or naive. I would not say that.)
Physically talk to people about what they do. See if some will let you come visit their work, etc. Try to find something that does interest you and don't be so smart :moon: to those that you talk to. You could surprise us and find you like something much better and will make enough money to pay your own bills, rather then indentured servitude.
I do this. That is how I decided to try Social Work. I have several social worker friends. I thought: "I could do that."
But I did not think: "I'd like to do that."
Oh, for you. I read that wrong. I thought you were suggesting it to me. haha
Yeah, that might have been a great fit for you!
I was just throwing it out there; it's one of a few jobs that interests me, and I figured it might qualify for government service.
I do this. That is how I decided to try Social Work. I have several social worker friends. I thought: "I could do that."
But I did not think: "I'd like to do that."
I would sooner gouge my eyes out with a grapefruit spoon than do social work. I would either develop serious heart bleeds or want to turn my client over my knee and thrash them. It's better for everyone involved that I turned down that job.
iris lilies
7-1-16, 10:51am
I would sooner gouge my eyes out with a grapefruit spoon than do social work. I would either develop serious heart bleeds or want to turn my client over my knee and thrash them. It's better for everyone involved that I turned down that job.
This reminds me of when my parents used to talk with me about possible career choices. One thing they offered up was Occupational Therapist because young Iris was "good with her hands."
And all I could think of was "but I would have to actually TOUCH people! Ugh! Um, nope."
iris lilies
7-1-16, 10:54am
This reminds me of when my parents used to talk with me about possible career choices. One thing they offered up was Occupational Therapist because young Iris was "good with her hands."
And all I could think of was "but I would have to actually TOUCH people! Ugh! Um, nope."
My parents were dears and made a sincere effort to introduce me to the world of work and encourage me to think practically about it. I do not know why they never mentioned the obvious: working in a library. Getting a degree in reading novels (English literature) was not on their radar either.
Or perhaps they did mention it and I just do not remember.
This reminds me of when my parents used to talk with me about possible career choices. One thing they offered up was Occupational Therapist because young Iris was "good with her hands."
And all I could think of was "but I would have to actually TOUCH people! Ugh! Um, nope."
Ugh. I remember my mother saying I should be a nurse or midwife. I'm assuming because those are suitable careers for a woman, and things she was familiar with. Never mind I was super shy and introverted and didn't get along with people very well.
Maybe if I'd learned about accounting or engineering or how student loans worked I'd have gone to university and done something like that. I was extremely good at math and sciences but no one explained any career related things to me. Or recommended "male careers". My mother is fairly anti-feminist.
Ha! My uber-extrovert mother suggested I should be a TV weather "girl." I laugh out loud even now at the thought.
Somewhere in the family is a lone video of me in which I can be seen literally crawling on my hands and knees away from the camera. That pretty much sums up my relationship to video and film in general.
I feel kind of sorry for her that she didn't get a kid like Katie Couric. Oh well.
I was extremely good at math and sciences but no one explained any career related things to me. Or recommended "male careers".
My high school guidance counselor (1977 or so) outright told me that women could not be engineers. HA proved him wrong.
ApatheticNoMore
7-1-16, 11:48am
my parents never suggested any careers to me, "do whatever you want" was pretty much all they said, nor discussed any careers with me ever pretty much. Now certain things were admired more than others, but this was all very subtly communicated, actual careers as regards me were never discussed.
I might come across as somewhat cold and unfeeling for a social worker if an actual display of emotion was actually required, I mean I'd have all the intellectual understanding down pat, have theories blah blah, I wouldn't even necessarily judge depending as I can intellectually understand sometimes why people are driven to desperation, but I'm not sure I'd come across as empathetic if that was required.
Ultralight
7-1-16, 12:45pm
I may have said this before, my dad told me to:
-Join the Army
-Be truck driver
-Be an auto mechanic
My mom had no real suggestions.
Guidance counselors in middle school said to learn a trade at a vocational school. In high school they really had no suggestions for me, except to tell me I probably wasn't college material.
In college and grad school they suggested:
-Teacher
-Librarian
-Social worker
Ultralight
7-1-16, 12:46pm
My high school guidance counselor (1977 or so) outright told me that women could not be engineers. HA proved him wrong.
You're an engineer?
Yes. I thought my statement indicated that. ;) That's the geek part of herbgeek. Currently working in software project management.
Engineers and I tend to lock horns. Had I known...
ApatheticNoMore
7-1-16, 1:59pm
I never saw guidance counselors in junior high or high school, there may have been one, maybe in high school (I am seriously doubting the junior high would have had any such thing), you had to seek it out though. I was too busy just emotionally surviving junior high and high school of course. I got through alive - mission accomplished. My grades weren't too shabby either, not that it mattered.
Ha! My uber-extrovert mother suggested I should be a TV weather "girl." I laugh out loud even now at the thought.
My mother did everything she could to sabotage my "career" in acting. She was totally appalled when we did a tour of Emerson College and she caught a glimpse of a class engaged in strange-looking improvisational warm-up exercises. After that came the emotional blackmail for the college she wanted, which was a convent in disguise, and I unfortunately took the bait, but escaped the next year to the college where I ultimately got my theatre degree.
My mother did everything she could to sabotage my "career" in acting. She was totally appalled when we did a tour of Emerson College and she caught a glimpse of a class engaged in strange-looking improvisational warm-up exercises. After that came the emotional blackmail for the college she wanted, which was a convent in disguise, and I unfortunately took the bait, but escaped the next year to the college where I ultimately got my theatre degree.
It's amazing how many of us were stifled. My mother wanted to go to design school in California. Her parents wanted her to go to an in-state college. She showed them; she didn't go anywhere. !thumbsup!Good work getting your theater degree! :D
Herbgeek, my nephew is studying for a degree in computer engineering. He's on the same plan I was on--the six-year plan. Fortunately, it looks like there will be jobs.
iris lilies
7-1-16, 5:09pm
It's amazing how many of us were stifled. My mother wanted to go to design school in California. Her parents wanted her to go to an in-state college. She showed them; she didn't go anywhere. ...
Ah well, families are all different.
My grandparents wanted my mother to go to college. My grandmother went to college, so did my grandfather. My mother just wanted to get married and have babies. She had hot pants for my father.
Later, and often, she said she was very silly then and wanted to make sure I didn't end up chasing the baby dream.
Oh, and she did ent up later going to nursing school, then college, then getting a graduate degree.
Engineers and I tend to lock horns. Had I known...
I could see that to be true, because engineers are trained for whole systems and how to optimize for the conditions present. We learn that there are many ways to solve a system problem. ie the world is not binary, there are always subtle nuances, and often the trick is to find out which input makes the most difference in output. We're analytical and mostly use data to support our decision making instead of going with our gut. Maybe people who think like this become engineers, or going through the training changes your brain (I suspect some of each is true). I find some of your assertions with no data ("your friend has no insight" "I think she has mental illness") to really grate on me, as well as binary thinking (it must be A or B).
Engineers tend to have a low b.s. tolerance. We typically also clash with marketing people. "Our product doesn't actually do that"
Engineers tend to have a low b.s. tolerance. We typically also clash with marketing people. "Our product doesn't actually do that"
Haha! The marketeers! They used to tell customers anything, I guess, and leave it up to us to "make it work." I've long had a jaundiced view of that type.
ApatheticNoMore
7-2-16, 11:57am
Some male dominated professions tend to have a serious competitive streak. Very hierarchical, and thinking they are the smartest person in the room (this is as often as not without basis - because sometimes the actual work just isn't all that). It's not entirely to my liking. But then I don't know if anything that would be to my liking exists in the current economy, maybe something solitary (because people in a work environment tend to be in some way or other intolerable) and creative - but good luck making a living that way, so ... I'm just resigned to the suck.
As INTP, yea we exist for different ways to see things, it's not that we think there's no truth or no facts or anything like that, it's just that looking at things in different ways is not just imperative to the type but actually pleasing in some sense. We build castles in the air and then as soon as they are built we remodel them. An INTP in this world, gee what a horrible thing to be.
Some male dominated professions tend to have a serious competitive streak.
Other women engineers and I have a name for that syndrome and it infers that the part of the male anatomy used for reproduction is so very tiny they have to compensate by bloviating. In public though, we just beat on our chests when the men aren't looking.
I could see that to be true, because engineers are trained for whole systems and how to optimize for the conditions present. We learn that there are many ways to solve a system problem. ie the world is not binary, there are always subtle nuances, and often the trick is to find out which input makes the most difference in output. We're analytical and mostly use data to support our decision making instead of going with our gut. Maybe people who think like this become engineers, or going through the training changes your brain (I suspect some of each is true). I find some of your assertions with no data ("your friend has no insight" "I think she has mental illness") to really grate on me, as well as binary thinking (it must be A or B).
Engineers tend to have a low b.s. tolerance. We typically also clash with marketing people. "Our product doesn't actually do that"
My experience has been that engineers are usually "how" people. They know how to do things. They figure out how to do things.
But liberal arts types are "why" people. We ask why and try to find out why.
But liberal arts types are "why" people. We ask why and try to find out why.
/Good/ engineers are why people.
/Good/ engineers are why people.
I am sure there are some. But my experience is that engineers are how people.
We need how people for sure, no offense is meant.
When I hire an accountant, I'm not generally interested in paying for her to explain to me why we amortize bond premiums. I'm interested in if she knows how to amortize bond premiums. Perhaps if she someday becomes Chair of the Governmental Accounting Standards Board that could become relevant, but as a practical matter the ratio of hows to whys in any given area of endeavor is pretty steep.
I wonder if our culture and educational system might do better to train more solid professionals and fewer philosopher-kings. I have nothing against the whys, but we seem to be producing more of them than we need, which seems to me above all to be fairly cruel to all the humanities majors doomed to disappointment.
Of course, it's their risk to take.
When I hire an accountant, I'm not generally interested in paying for her to explain to me why we amortize bond premiums. I'm interested in if she knows how to amortize bond premiums. Perhaps if she someday becomes Chair of the Governmental Accounting Standards Board that could become relevant, but as a practical matter the ratio of hows to whys in any given area of endeavor is pretty steep.
I wonder if our culture and educational system might do better to train more solid professionals and fewer philosopher-kings. I have nothing against the whys, but we seem to be producing more of them than we need, which seems to me above all to be fairly cruel to all the humanities majors doomed to disappointment.
Of course, it's their risk to take.
I'd say we created a society and economic systems that does too much (industries of various sorts), which has created an artificial need for "how" people when what we really need is many, many more people to focus on the why.
And we have few philosopher kings. We have lots of philosopher paupers though!
I...what we really need is many, many more people to focus on the why.
Who would feed them?
Who would feed them?
Crackin' wise, again? haha
I read this book a long time ago that broke people down into three categories.
1. Peasants.
2. Aristocrats.
3. Intellectuals.
https://www.amazon.com/philosophy-peasant-Rodney-Petersen/dp/093280800X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467744843&sr=8-1&keywords=the+philosophy+of+a+peasant
Have you read it?
Crackin' wise, again? haha
I read this book a long time ago that broke people down into three categories.
1. Peasants.
2. Aristocrats.
3. Intellectuals.
https://www.amazon.com/philosophy-peasant-Rodney-Petersen/dp/093280800X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467744843&sr=8-1&keywords=the+philosophy+of+a+peasant
Have you read it?
No. But at a penny for a used copy maybe I should.
I would be interested in learning how many "peasants" there are with an interest in feeding the "aristocrats" and "intellectuals".
No. But at a penny for a used copy maybe I should.
I would be interested in how learning many "peasants" there are with an interest in feeding the "aristocrats" and "intellectuals".
You might get some food for thought from the book. I liked the book, though I disagreed with its ideological thrust.
I don't see how why and how are mutually exclusive. I guess you could say scientists ask both.
ApatheticNoMore
7-5-16, 4:55pm
When I hire an accountant, I'm not generally interested in paying for her to explain to me why we amortize bond premiums. I'm interested in if she knows how to amortize bond premiums.
ah so this isn't really a position that truly requires a 4 year degree probably the type of position for which a two year degree or even on the job training would suffice, because anyone who has been through a decent degree program and sometimes a lot less and has a fair level of intelligence has thought about things like that (well if their degree was accounting). Granted degree or not there are some dim bulbs in the world incapable of actually understanding anything. Whatever education they get is never about understanding or remembering much less processing and questioning but just about ticking off the boxes.
I don't see how why and how are mutually exclusive. I guess you could say scientists ask both.
I find that why and how reinforce each other nicely.
There is an old joke:
"An optimist sees the glass as half full; the pessimist sees the glass as half empty; and the engineer sees a glass twice the size it needs to be."
A liberal arts person might say: "Why is there a glass? Who filled it to 50% and why to that level? Could we have more glasses? Are there more glasses than we see? Who all will be drinking from this glass and why? Do we need a glass in the first place?"
I agree with bae. Both are important, no matter what field you are in. I have to admit, being in qualitative market research, I've always wanted a vanity license plate that says "Y YNOT"
I'm not arguing that practice shouldn't be informed by theory. I'm arguing that we have a surfeit of theorists, thinkers and wannabe experts demanding support from what the practitioners produce. Many academics, pundits, NEA grant recipients, bloggers, educrats, technocrats and a self-regarding credentialed elite who produce little of substance but seem to expect a certain deference.
I've got no problem with anyone preferring a life of navel-gazing over actually getting stuff done. But I'm enough of a philistine to ask that they earn their own keep.
/Good/ engineers are why people.
I'm reminded of an article I read a while back. I don't remember the point of the article but there was an anecdote about engineers that I found very amusing. A copy machine tech had shown up to an engineering office to fix the copy machine. He arrived to find the entire copy machine taken apart and laid out on a sheet, meticulously. The engineer, explaining what he had done said "I think it's this part here that's bad," pointing to one of the parts. The tech then spent the next two days putting the machine back together before replacing the easily accessible bad part that the engineer had indeed correctly identified.
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