View Full Version : How many more?
Woman live-streams aftermath of fatal officer-involved shooting
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/falcon-heights-shooting-minnesota/
IshbelRobertson
7-7-16, 2:38pm
Thousands, unless you change your gun laws.
Teacher Terry
7-7-16, 3:08pm
So sad.
Thousands, unless you change your gun laws.
The US already has the most permissive laws in the world. Are you familiar with the US second amendment?
IshbelRobertson
7-7-16, 4:50pm
Yes.
As far as the second amendment, as I've said before........it was never meant for today's world.
I've seen the videos from both of these shootings and I have some questions:
I'm not sure why the guy on the ground in Baton Rouge had to be shot? Is it possible it was an accident? I mean seriously........can't 2 men keep 1 man restrained without shooting him?? Then....I have to wonder why some of these victims fight the police so hard. Just go with them and deal with them later, through the law. It just makes the outcome potentially worse.
Now...the case in MN....the man was supposedly reaching for his driver's license or registration and they shot him. But why the hell is the woman proceeding to film it all instead of insisting on helping the guy beside her who is bleeding to death??? She was speaking very respectfully to the officer (who was holding his gun to the dying man in the front seat next to her), but geez.......why not try to stop his bleeding? He exsanguinated right next to her.
There is a group of mostly black ministers in the city near here who are really trying to help the problems of violence in the black community. And they keep saying "Just do what the police tell you to do." Why do some fight it so hard?
Now...the case in MN....the man was supposedly reaching for his driver's license or registration and they shot him. But why the hell is the woman proceeding to film it all instead of insisting on helping the guy beside her who is bleeding to death??? She was speaking very respectfully to the officer (who was holding his gun to the dying man in the front seat next to her), but geez.......why not try to stop his bleeding? He exsanguinated right next to her.
I kind of thought that, but then again, the whole video was so surreal: almost like the Hunger Games meets the Truman Show. And she wasn't the only one choosing to not help the dying man--the police officer apparently considered him still to be a potential threat--with his gun still poking in the car window. Maybe if she had reached over to help him, he'd have thought she was reaching for her boyfriend's "gun" and shot her too. Above all, I think she knew she was witnessing what most people choose to ignore and she was angry enough to feel it was more important to make her heart-wrenching video blog a testimony to injustice.
The police would never have let her get to him, I'm sure. Against protocol.
Meanwhile, Dylan Roof gets a free lunch from his captors, and the Bundys get an Oregon vacation.
Business as usual.
White privilege is real.
I wish more people realized that.
Teacher Terry
7-7-16, 6:11pm
WE have gotten so paranoid that if we get stopped we put our hands up high on steering wheel so they can see them. When they ask for DL we ask if it is ok to go into our glove department to get it. I am not giving anyone a reason to shoot me.
I think when most cops pull over a white person they think: "He or she will cooperate."
That is a white privilege.
Or maybe "I can do whatever I want to this person of color and get away with it." Which has proven, over and over, to be the case.
Not all police officers have good intentions.
Or maybe "I can do whatever I want to this person of color and get away with it." Which has proven, over and over, to be the case.
Another white privilege.
Teacher Terry
7-7-16, 7:07pm
Here they have shot white people for no reason. A woman in her 30's calls the Cops because her Mom is suicidal. They arrive and when the woman that calls runs out to talk to them unarmed they shoot her in the leg and her Mom comes out to help and they kill her.
Here they have shot white people for no reason. A woman in her 30's calls the Cops because her Mom is suicidal. They arrive and when the woman that calls runs out to talk to them unarmed they shoot her in the leg and her Mom comes out to help and they kill her.
I really try to avoid cops whenever possible.
Here they have shot white people for no reason. A woman in her 30's calls the Cops because her Mom is suicidal. They arrive and when the woman that calls runs out to talk to them unarmed they shoot her in the leg and her Mom comes out to help and they kill her.
Did they get away with it?
Horrifying.
Teacher Terry
7-7-16, 7:15pm
Yes they did. I have lived in 5 states and have never seen the cops act like they do here. Another incident I saw was I was downtown at a stoplight and a cop was on one side of the road. A teenager was crossing the street with his headphones on. A car turning in the intersection stopped to ask the kid a question and while answering them the cop starts screaming at him. The kid never looks up so I don't think he saw or heard him. When the kid gets to the other side of street the cop shoves him into a building from behind as rough as he can. NO clue as the light turned and I went. This is not a huge crime ridden city either.
I cried on the way to work this morning,
WE have gotten so paranoid that if we get stopped we put our hands up high on steering wheel so they can see them. When they ask for DL we ask if it is ok to go into our glove department to get it. I am not giving anyone a reason to shoot me.
That's not paranoid. That's just basic common sense.
The girlfriend of the guy in MN apparently said on the video that he had his concealed carry permit. I have not seen that confirmed by any law enforcement agency. Depending on the state, your carry permit may or may not come up when they run your plates. It depends on if the state ties your registration to your DL, and if your carry permit is tied to your DL. MN is not automatically a duty to inform state. You have to inform LE you're carrying ONLY if they ask (IL is the same way). It's considered preferable by many to inform LE immediately that you're carrying. Some states require the notification to be done verbally. In others, handing the cop your carry permit (and DL) is considered sufficient.
You do NOT want to make ANY furtive movements. You're risking getting shot if you do. The way to handle a traffic stop is: car stopped, radio off, driver's side window rolled down, dome light on at night/low light conditions, both hands on the steering wheel. You immediately tell the officer that you have a carry permit and you're carrying in X location (right hip, for example), or if your pistol is in your purse, center console, etc.., and what would the officer like you to do next. If officer tells you to not touch pistol, and you need to show documents, you indicate where DL/carry permit/insurance card/registration is and get them out. Slow movements, nothing suspicious.
I've been stopped while carrying - in Virginia, for speeding (on a road trip from IL to NC). VA is not a duty to notify state, but I did it anyway. I handled the stop as I outlined above and there were no issues. Deputy thanked me for notifying him.
That's not paranoid. That's just basic common sense.
The girlfriend of the guy in MN apparently said on the video that he had his concealed carry permit. I have not seen that confirmed by any law enforcement agency. Depending on the state, your carry permit may or may not come up when they run your plates. It depends on if the state ties your registration to your DL, and if your carry permit is tied to your DL. MN is not automatically a duty to inform state. You have to inform LE you're carrying ONLY if they ask (IL is the same way). It's considered preferable by many to inform LE immediately that you're carrying. Some states require the notification to be done verbally. In others, handing the cop your carry permit (and DL) is considered sufficient.
You do NOT want to make ANY furtive movements. You're risking getting shot if you do. The way to handle a traffic stop is: car stopped, radio off, driver's side window rolled down, dome light on at night/low light conditions, both hands on the steering wheel. You immediately tell the officer that you have a carry permit and you're carrying in X location (right hip, for example), or if your pistol is in your purse, center console, etc.., and what would the officer like you to do next. If officer tells you to not touch pistol, and you need to show documents, you indicate where DL/carry permit/insurance card/registration is and get them out. Slow movements, nothing suspicious.
I've been stopped while carrying - in Virginia, for speeding (on a road trip from IL to NC). VA is not a duty to notify state, but I did it anyway. I handled the stop as I outlined above and there were no issues. Deputy thanked me for notifying him.
You don't get to blame the guy.
Not blaming the guy. Just saying what can happen.
Not blaming the guy. Just saying what can happen.
What did happen shouldn't have happened. Tradd, you are a white female. Even the Governor of MN said that if Philander Castille had been white, this wouldn't have happened. We white people can feel safer than blacks in this country with good reason. And that's not right.
I think that municipalities need to take a serious look at their hiring practices for police officers.
I think that municipalities need to take a serious look at their hiring practices for police officers.
YES! and the culture and ongoing training. Throw in some consequences for acting as judge and jury and we may get somewhere. I know of police officers who have committed domestic violence, ex-wives reported it and nothing happened, They still are officers and carry a gun to this day. There is no excuse for that, I can;'t think of any reason whatsoever that a domestic abuser should have a job as a police officer or even qualify to carry a gun,
iris lilies
7-7-16, 9:53pm
The Minnesota shooting is sad and unfortunate, especially if it proves to be unprovoked.
But death to black men comes, by an order ofor magnitude, at the hands of other non LEO black men over other demographics.
This week in St. Louis we had 6 deaths within a 24 hour period; none were officer involved shootings. I believe all shooters were black men but I can't verify that. Our local rag doesnt always provide race of shooters or victims, but does provide that info sometimes according to byzantine rules no one understands.
Two Dallas cops have just been shot at a protest in Dallas.
Two Dallas cops have just been shot at a protest in Dallas.
I see that on Fox News, but it doesn't look like CNN's covering it.
Live stream from DFW TV station.
http://livestream.com/kdfw/live
iris lilies
7-7-16, 10:54pm
I see that on Fox News, but it doesn't look like CNN's covering it.
You didnt mean this sarcastically, right?
But should we be surprised?
KDFW is now reporting 3-6 officers down. One of my forums online is monitoring scanner traffic and there might be two shooters. Those gun shots I heard were almost definitely fired from a rifle.
The Minnesota shooting is sad and unfortunate, especially if it proves to be unprovoked.
But death to black men comes, by an order ofor magnitude, at the hands of other non LEO black men over other demographics.
This week in St. Louis we had 6 deaths within a 24 hour period; none were officer involved shootings. I believe all shooters were black men but I can't verify that. Our local rag doesnt always provide race of shooters or victims, but does provide that info sometimes according to byzantine rules no one understands.
And more people die from guns by suicide than at the hand of someone else pulling the trigger. But that doesn't negate the fact that black men are routinely not given the same treatment that white men are by cops. This pic came across my facebook feed today from some confederate flag event at stone mountain where a confederate flag supporter, toting two guns and with his hand on one, was faced towards a cop 3 feet away, and yet the cop didn't pull out his gun and pop the guy. If it had been a black dude I doubt the result would have been the same. White privilege. And where's the NRA after Alton Sterling. Guy didn't do anything wrong, had a legal concealed carry, advised the cop of his gun, and is still dead. If he'd been white Wayne LaPierre would be jumping up and down all red in the face shouting about how wrong it was that a person legally exercising their 2nd amendment right had this happen to them.
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s363/jpatter492/gun%20guy_zpsuoixhowe.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/jpatter492/media/gun%20guy_zpsuoixhowe.jpg.html)
1 Dallas officer now confirmed dead.
Alton Sterling is the guy shot in Baton Rouge. The MN guy is the one who apparently had his carry permit, according to his girlfriend. No official confirmation of that.
3 officers are now confirmed dead. As many as 10 shot. Two snipers shooting from elevated positions with rifles. This was an ambush.
Alton Sterling is the guy shot in Baton Rouge. The MN guy is the one who apparently had his carry permit, according to his girlfriend. No official confirmation of that.
3 officers are now confirmed dead. As many as 10 shot. Two snipers shooting from elevated positions with rifles. This was an ambush.
You are correct. I meant Philando Castile. So many dead black guys over the years that I can't keep track...
I feel bad for the cops in Dallas and their families. They didn't deserve this, but it's not surprising. Unfortunately I expect this problem is going to get uglier and more divisive before it gets better. Hopefully we've reached, or will soon reach, the tipping point to achieve true police reform so that no one else on either side gets senselessly killed.
iris lilies
7-8-16, 12:02am
You are correct. I meant Philando Castile. So many dead black guys over the years that I can't keep track...
I feel bad for the cops in Dallas and their families. They didn't deserve this, but it's not surprising. Unfortunately I expect this problem is going to get uglier and more divisive before it gets better. Hopefully we've reached, or will soon reach, the tipping point to achieve true police reform so that no one else on either side gets senselessly killed.
We all are seeing "police reform." The Ferguson
effect. Ask and ye shall receive.
Dallas PD has released a photo of a suspect. Black man.
Now some sort of an explosive device is suspected and being searched for.
Still active shooting. Seeing officers being pulled to safety on live feed. Now 4 officers dead.
Per the scanner feed, all patrol cars are being recalled to stations and will not be on patrol tonight. Will only be responding to serious crimes.
Won't be giving the scumbags any more targets.
Per the scanner feed, all patrol cars are being recalled to stations and will not be on patrol tonight. Will only be responding to serious crimes.
Won't be giving the scumbags any more targets.
I am thinking fire/ems responses may be impacted as well.
Ah well, civilization was nice....
I am thinking fire/ems responses may be impacted as well.
Ah well, civilization was nice....
And all because some sociopathic or otherwise trigger-happy cops didn't have the heart/brains/judgment to handle their weapons properly.
To Iris Lily's point--we expect our police to be at least a couple of notches smarter/calmer/more self-controlled than the average street criminal. Maybe we're too optimistic.
And all because some sociopathic or otherwise trigger-happy cops didn't have the heart/brains/judgment to handle their weapons properly.
I think the snipers may have had something to do with it too.
I think the snipers may have had something to do with it too.
The after-the-fact sniper? That guy?
It's not unexpected that some loose cannon would respond to a constant drumbeat of unprovoked attacks in an equally violent manner. Obviously, too many homicidal cranks have access to lethal weapons.
DocHolliday
7-8-16, 12:11pm
The Minnesota shooting is sad and unfortunate, especially if it proves to be unprovoked.
But death to black men comes, by an order ofor magnitude, at the hands of other non LEO black men over other demographics.
This week in St. Louis we had 6 deaths within a 24 hour period; none were officer involved shootings. I believe all shooters were black men but I can't verify that. Our local rag doesnt always provide race of shooters or victims, but does provide that info sometimes according to byzantine rules no one understands.
I saw a story yesterday that there have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 560 officer involved shootings of civilians this year, 123 of them black. For everyone of those, there have been 40 killed by members of their own race.
I don't think his victims would dismiss him as "after-the-fact".
DocHolliday
7-8-16, 12:17pm
And where's the NRA after Alton Sterling. Guy didn't do anything wrong, had a legal concealed carry, advised the cop of his gun, and is still dead. If he'd been white Wayne LaPierre would be jumping up and down all red in the face shouting about how wrong it was that a person legally exercising their 2nd amendment right had this happen to them.
Really, what do you base that claim on?
For the record, both the Gun Owners of America & the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms have called for investigations into the shootings.
The after-the-fact sniper? That guy?
It's not unexpected that some loose cannon would respond to a constant drumbeat of unprovoked attacks in an equally violent manner. Obviously, too many homicidal cranks have access to lethal weapons.
Realize that we have millions of citizens with the ability to easily execute far more deadly attacks, without the use of firearms.
And I'm wondering what the outcome of this approach by the police to terminate their negotiations will be:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/07/08/dallas-police-used-a-robot-to-deliver-bomb-that-killed-shooting-suspect/?tid=a_inl
They sent in a robot, a drone, with a bomb, and blew the fellow up.
Given the low cost of such technologies today, and the large number of trained people who know how to create improvised explosive and chemical weapons, I'm sort of worried we've crossed the bridge.
(I just had a 4 hour class/drill in dealing such things last night, by purest coincidence. It was sort of cold and wet and dismal.)
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-16, 4:13pm
I really try to avoid cops whenever possible.You really are best served by having nothing to do with cops. Society has sunken to the point that for many their only constructive purpose is the potential for life altering settlements due to misbehavior/blatant disregard for both laws and human rights. Rob
You really are best served by having nothing to do with cops. Society has sunken to the point that for many their only constructive purpose is the potential for life altering settlements due to misbehavior/blatant disregard for both laws and human rights. Rob
Bullshit.
I work with cops every day. Good, well-trained, brave, caring cops. We generally save lives and prevent Bad Stuff from happening.
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-16, 4:17pm
[QUOTE=JaneV2.0;246918]And all because some sociopathic or otherwise trigger-happy cops didn't have the heart/brains/judgment to handle their weapons properly.
To Iris Lily's point--we expect our police to be at least a couple of notches smarter/calmer/more self-controlled than the average street criminal. Maybe we're too optimistic.[/QUOTE PLUS 10 million. Rob]
It's a complicated problem. Its a culture clash. Some black people respond in a way that might be accepted in their group, but it's found offensive/aggressive to some whites. I imagine police that work in this all the time get really fed up and frustrated.....but no, it's no reason to use inappropriate force. A certain behavior is expected in a civilized society, and many times you don't find that in certain groups. I do get tired of people crying racism, when they are just expected to act in a reasonable manner.
I sure wish we could know the truth all the time, in situations like the ones in MN and LA. No matter who gets stopped by the police, they just can't start fighting........it ups the potential for a bad outcome immediately.
Nobody can seem to do anything today without someone being up in arms (literally). Too many people don't want to "fit in". Too many people don't want to follow rules..........but at the same time, everybody has rights that can end up in deadlocks.
As you said Bae........civilization was nice while it lasted...
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-16, 4:22pm
Bullshit.
I work with cops every day. Good, well-trained, brave, caring cops. We generally save lives and prevent Bad Stuff from happening.That may be so, Bae, but there is no way
a innocent person can know if their life is at risk simply by asking for directions from a cop. I no longer believe instant pension loss is enough for law breaking sociopathic cops....also a new life in another country never having to work again is necessary, paid for via large settlements sought by not taking it any more members of the general public. And even that's not enough, really. Somehow terror seems to need to be struck into the hearts of psychopaths in uniform. I don't see change happening otherwise. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-16, 4:30pm
And all because some sociopathic or otherwise trigger-happy cops didn't have the heart/brains/judgment to handle their weapons properly.
To Iris Lily's point--we expect our police to be at least a couple of notches smarter/calmer/more self-controlled than the average street criminal. Maybe we're too optimistic.I wonder....and I know there is no provision in the law for this....but for psychopathic cops who are caught, might exile from the United States not be warranted? The threat of statelessness might just prevent sociopathic behavior from law enforcement. I'd have no problem with exiling such trash.....provided their behavior was both illegal and over the top. Having it on video would probably be necessary, too. Really, this might be a sane, low cost solution that might deter a lot of this behavior on the part of law enforcement. Rob
Teacher Terry
7-8-16, 4:39pm
I have been involved in the past with some of the psychological testing done on potential cops and they are trying hard to weed out people that are psychopaths and or sociopaths but are not always successful. Also cops may start out fine but the nature of the horrible stuff they see everyday starts to take a toll on their psyche. Not a reason to start shooting unarmed people for no reason. Even if they don't start out racist they may end up that way from their day to day interactions with a certain race. Again not an excuse. I also think some cops have gotten trigger happy because many have been killed when doing a routine traffic stop. I would not want anyone I loved to work in that profession. I can remember about 30 years ago when I was working in KS and a a few professional black men said they were very afraid of the police and driving at night because of some of the crap that had happened to people they knew. I think black people are sick of being killed at a whim so then they target white officers for no reason. It all has become a vicious circle.
Somehow terror seems to need to be struck into the hearts of psychopaths in uniform.
That's a hateful thing to say, especially in the context of the shootings of the Dallas police officers yesterday. Sickening really.
It'd serve you right if police, fire, ems just withdrew from your neighborhood entirely - you've indicated in previous postings you live in terror of them, wouldn't call them to aid a neighbor, and mostly want to fight crime with cell phones. Maybe you should put some sort of sign on your door telling first responders you don't ever want to interact with them.
Teacher Terry
7-8-16, 4:43pm
Life in a rural area and association with cops due to your profession and being in a poor, black ghetto in a big city are 2 entirely different experiences.
That may be so, Bae, but there is no way
a innocent person can know if their life is at risk simply by asking for directions from a cop. I no longer believe instant pension loss is enough for law breaking sociopathic cops....also a new life in another country never having to work again is necessary, paid for via large settlements sought by not taking it any more members of the general public. And even that's not enough, really. Somehow terror seems to need to be struck into the hearts of psychopaths in uniform. I don't see change happening otherwise. Rob
It seems to me this kind of statement evinces the same kind of prejudiced thinking you're so eager to impute to police officers.
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-16, 5:34pm
Life in a rural area and association with cops due to your profession and being in a poor, black ghetto in a big city are 2 entirely different experiences.Bingo. Very much true. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-16, 5:37pm
That's a hateful thing to say, especially in the context of the shootings of the Dallas police officers yesterday. Sickening really.
It'd serve you right if police, fire, ems just withdrew from your neighborhood entirely - you've indicated in previous postings you live in terror of them, wouldn't call them to aid a neighbor, and mostly want to fight crime with cell phones. Maybe you should put some sort of sign on your door telling first responders you don't ever want to interact with them.And it's not hateful for cops to shoot at whim for no real reason and often face no consequences? I'm not following you, Bae. At least my suggestions don't cost them their lives, unlike their actions can and do for innocent Americans every day. Rob
And it's not hateful for cops to shoot at whim for no real reason and often face no consequences?
I did not say that, now did I? (And your statement/question reeks of "When did you stop beating your wife?"...)
Teacher Terry
7-8-16, 5:46pm
Instead of attacking Rob why not address some of the issues in this complicated matter?
http://americanmilitarynews.com/2016/07/two-police-officers-shot-in-st-louis-and-georgia-the-day-after-dallas-shootings/
Instead of attacking Rob why not address some of the issues in this complicated matter?
What issues would you have me address?
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-16, 5:48pm
Instead of attacking Rob why not address some of the issues in this complicated matter?Thank You, Terry. And I agree with you - this is a complicated matter, it's not all easily cut and dry. Rob
Teacher Terry
7-8-16, 6:34pm
Some of the issues on both sides that I mentioned in 2 of my posts earlier today. If there was one quick easy solution I think we would have found it by now. Also suing for lots of $ or throwing cops out of the country are not going to work either. Police need to be held to a standard and if they kill people without cause they need to go to prison just like anyone else.
His manifesto reads like a Hippocratic Oath for police officers, though I might not refer to "toxic masculinity."
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/07/its-not-us-vs-them/490493/?utm_source=atlfb
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0141854#pone-0141854-g008
Interesting study on the likelihood of getting shot by police. Apparently unarmed black men are about 3.49 times more likely to be shot by cops than unarmed white men.
And overall they found that armed white men are about equally likely to be shot by cops as unarmed black men. The differences vary quite a bit by county, but a few counties stood out as especially disparate. From that part of the study:
"It is notable that Miami-Dade (FL, contains Miami), Harris (TX, contains Houston), and Cook (IL, contains Chicago), stand out as counties where the ratio of {black, unarmed, and shot by police} to {white, armed, and shot by police} is elevated to 19.08"
gimmethesimplelife
7-10-16, 9:55am
Some of the issues on both sides that I mentioned in 2 of my posts earlier today. If there was one quick easy solution I think we would have found it by now. Also suing for lots of $ or throwing cops out of the country are not going to work either. Police need to be held to a standard and if they kill people without cause they need to go to prison just like anyone else.I thought about your post here for a couple of days before responding. It's not an easy post for me to respond to as in theory I agree with you 100 percent, i.e., if we could just place cops who kill for no reason into prison I'd be content with that. Good luck with that......most often police seem to have license to kill, whether appropriate or not, with little to no consequence.
Huge settlements are necessary as retaliation against a system in which there are no real checks or balances upon police power. I'd love to have officers who kill on the flimsiest of excuses or for no reason whatsoever stripped of their citizenship, and exiled from the US, stateless and forced to live in a refugee camp for years. This to me, though I realize this would never happen in real life, would be appropriate retaliation that would cause such officers to suffer but would keep them alive, unlike their victims.
My overall point here is for those who don't understand, this issue has spiraled into dispensing appropriate retaliation at this point as America had proved repeatedly that the lives of innocent people of a certain race are not worth fixing this problem. Watch for retaliation to become worse and more brazen as America has made it clear that there is no hope for change. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-10-16, 10:06am
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0141854#pone-0141854-g008
Interesting study on the likelihood of getting shot by police. Apparently unarmed black men are about 3.49 times more likely to be shot by cops than unarmed white men.
And overall they found that armed white men are about equally likely to be shot by cops as unarmed black men. The differences vary quite a bit by county, but a few counties stood out as especially disparate. From that part of the study:
"It is notable that Miami-Dade (FL, contains Miami), Harris (TX, contains Houston), and Cook (IL, contains Chicago), stand out as counties where the ratio of {black, unarmed, and shot by police} to {white, armed, and shot by police} is elevated to 19.08"My question is....how do we as a society fix this? How do we even get some to understand that there is a real problem here that needs fixing? I personally don't have much if any hope on this one and dread the continued downward spiral on this issue that America has earned. Rob
This is very interesting to me, and makes some sense of reconciling the police officers I know with what is happening
http://thegrio.com/2015/05/12/fbi-white-supremacists-law-enforcement/
Perhaps the very model of policing we use today is fundamentally flawed:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-mullen/a-practical-solution-run-police-departments-like-fire-departments_b_7871434.html
This was an interesting watch:
https://youtu.be/yfi3Ndh3n-g
Phoenix activist who protested against police shootings went through shoot/no shoot training with the local sheriff's department.
Perhaps the very model of policing we use today is fundamentally flawed:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-mullen/a-practical-solution-run-police-departments-like-fire-departments_b_7871434.html
I actually kind of like this idea. Instead of turning police into glorified meter maids to generate revenue for their city have them actually focus on real crime instead of BS like selling loose cigarettes or busted taillights.
Instead of turning police into glorified meter maids to generate revenue for their city have them actually focus on real crime instead of BS like selling loose cigarettes or busted taillights.
And citizens and politicians need to realize that when they demand these sort of BS laws be passed in the first place ("no soda sales larger than 16 ounces") they are really saying "I'm willing to have an armed police officer use lethal force and shoot you dead if you disagree".
My county passes BS "feel good" laws every year, rarely doing the people passing the things think of the consequences. Luckily, here, the current Sheriff doesn't enforce the silly stuff, but each year the code book gets thicker.
Must be all sorts of fun living in a community where local law enforcement/government decide to use this stuff to raise revenue, or to oppress unfavored classes of people...
Teacher Terry
7-10-16, 6:43pm
I favor the "fireman" approach to law enforcement. Also it was interesting to read the article stating that white supremacists are becoming cops-ugh!!
I like the "photograph and send a ticket" approach, like speed cameras, for things like busted tail lights. No need to pull anyone over, nothing gets escalated.
I also like body cameras on officers and GoPro cameras in vehicles, as well as security cameras generally. However, citizens have to realize the tradeoff of 24 hour surveillance vs. privacy and freedom, and right now I believe most are ready to sacrifice that for their security. London (CCTV everywhere), here we come.
Two more data points: Timothy McVeigh, the bomber of the Oklahoma City federal building (168 killed), was caught 90 minutes after the bombing when he was pulled over by a highway patrol officer for driving without a license plate. Jodi Arias, convicted murderer of Travis Alexander, was stopped and questioned about an upside down license plate. (It was not what led to her being captured, but it placed her in an area at a certain point in the time line of the crime.)
So if we really don't want more proactive policing, we have to realize these 2 would never have been stopped in the first place.
iris lilies
7-10-16, 10:12pm
I like the "photograph and send a ticket" approach, like speed cameras, for things like busted tail lights. No need to pull anyone over, nothing gets escalated.
I also like body cameras on officers and GoPro cameras in vehicles, as well as security cameras generally. However, citizens have to realize the tradeoff of 24 hour surveillance vs. privacy and freedom, and right now I believe most are ready to sacrifice that for their security. London (CCTV everywhere), here we come.
Two more data points: Timothy McVeigh, the bomber of the Oklahoma City federal building (168 killed), was caught 90 minutes after the bombing when he was pulled over by a highway patrol officer for driving without a license plate. Jodi Arias, convicted murderer of Travis Alexander, was stopped and questioned about an upside down license plate. (It was not what led to her being captured, but it placed her in an area at a certain point in the time line of the crime.)
So if we really don't want more proactive policing, we have to realize these 2 would never have been stopped in the first place.
I dont want less proactive policing.
Just making that clear.
I like the "photograph and send a ticket" approach, like speed cameras, for things like busted tail lights. No need to pull anyone over, nothing gets escalated.
I also like body cameras on officers and GoPro cameras in vehicles, as well as security cameras generally. However, citizens have to realize the tradeoff of 24 hour surveillance vs. privacy and freedom, and right now I believe most are ready to sacrifice that for their security. London (CCTV everywhere), here we come.
Two more data points: Timothy McVeigh, the bomber of the Oklahoma City federal building (168 killed), was caught 90 minutes after the bombing when he was pulled over by a highway patrol officer for driving without a license plate. Jodi Arias, convicted murderer of Travis Alexander, was stopped and questioned about an upside down license plate. (It was not what led to her being captured, but it placed her in an area at a certain point in the time line of the crime.)
So if we really don't want more proactive policing, we have to realize these 2 would never have been stopped in the first place.
But they weren't stopped. They were caught after the fact. The damage had already been done. Truly proactive policing would have prevented their acts. But proactive policing seems to mainly be about stop and frisk and other such crap. Cast a wide enough net and surely you'll catch a couple of fish.
Personally I wish the fourth amendment still existed more than just theoretically.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 7:47am
This nation is in real trouble. I am saddened, deeply saddened.
This nation is in real trouble. I am saddened, deeply saddened.
Yes. "The best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity".
I'm not sure this problem has a law or policy solution. It feels more like a cultural thing.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 9:09am
Policy involves culture. Culture involves policy.
They are intertwined. As complicated as it may be, I think both need to be addressed.
The truth is that I am rather depressed about the state of things -- our policies and our culture. So, so many problems...
I see policy as being downstream of culture. You can pass all the laws you like to limit drugs, guns, or your particular concept of "hate", but if the greater culture isn't buying it, they'll either be ignored or circumvented.
I'm not sure our problems are so much worse than they've ever been. I think, for instance, you'd be hard put saying we're in a worse situation than the 60s/70s.
Yes. "The best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity".
I think one of the big reasons Bernie was/is such a hit, especially among young people is because he has a LOT of commitment and passion. Otherwise, I think you're right. There's passion in all the wrong places.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 9:41am
I think one of the big reasons Bernie was/is such a hit, especially among young people is because he has a LOT of commitment and passion. Otherwise, I think you're right. There's passion in all the wrong places.
There is also passion in the right places, and massive amounts of it.
I think Bernie was a hit among young people because he listened to us. But also because we have not been fully hoodwinked by the corporate oligarchs who tell us socialism "doesn't work."
Many of us have been to socialist nations and seen how it works quite well in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Costa Rica, etc.
There is also passion in the right places, and massive amounts of it.
I think Bernie was a hit among young people because he listened to us. But also because we have not been fully hoodwinked by the corporate oligarchs who tell us socialism "doesn't work."
Many of us have been to socialist nations and seen how it works quite well in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Costa Rica, etc.
I agree.. I meant there's lots of passion among his Bernistas and Bernistos. And thankfully I see groundswells of passion in countercultural/eco/permaculture movements, like Joanna Macy's The Great Turning and as described in Paul Hawken's Blessed Unrest.
There is also passion in the right places, and massive amounts of it.
I think Bernie was a hit among young people because he listened to us. But also because we have not been fully hoodwinked by the corporate oligarchs who tell us socialism "doesn't work."
Many of us have been to socialist nations and seen how it works quite well in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Costa Rica, etc.
Well, his "passionate intensity" has certainly seemed to shift HRC's lack of all conviction more toward the entitlement state, as witness her "Free College, Dude" proposal.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 10:01am
Lots of developed nations with high standards of living have free college, dude.
They just don't have any freedom.
Norwegians have to wear white or gray -- no bright colors are allowed by law. Costa Ricans are not permitted to go to their own beaches for fear they might meet American tourists and suddenly yearn to be free. And the people of Denmark are not allowed to be sad, ever.
Since Bernie began spinning his tales of the magical Nordic kingdoms, some (including the Danish Prime Minister) have taken exception to his Utopian claims. I'm sure we will always have something to learn from Finland or Singapore, but I have to assume their value as benchmarks require a good measure of qualification.
http://www.investors.com/denmark-tells-bernie-sanders-to-stop-calling-it-socialist
/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/03/why-denmark-isnt-the-utopian-fantasy-bernie-sanders-describes/
I know I sound like a broken record, but I have to wonder if all cultures are not supposed to meld. Some cultures have behavior that other cultures find inappropriate/offensive. But in our country especially, we're supposed to deny all those feelings.
It really irks me that all I'm hearing on the news is "We have to come together!" Well, some people don't want to come together......which is a problem. Of course there are many in each culture who CAN come together. But some cannot. And it can only lead to these types of unrest all the time. But we keep insisting that we all have to be alike, or accepting of most all behaviors. Some behaviors can't ever be accepted. We all have had different pasts and experiences, so we can't really tell each other to believe what we believe, because reality may have led us to a different place.
How would this go over: If we had group discussion with blacks and whites, where people actually said what they really felt? And I'm not talking just about educated people. I fear it would turn into violence.........
Some people just don't want to get along or "conform".
I know I sound like a broken record ...
...
Some people ....
No, you don't sound like a broken record. You sound like something else entirely...
Ultralight
7-11-16, 11:43am
No, you don't sound like a broken record. You sound like something else entirely...
Go on...
Ultralight
7-11-16, 11:45am
I wonder if there are any black people on this forum...
ApatheticNoMore
7-11-16, 11:45am
So what is the solution if all cultures can't meld? In my fantasy sometimes it's for white people to leave the country, GO BACK HOME, go back to Europe already (white Sander's supports may not have a problem with this :)). It's the native american's country of course, but what to do with people brought over here in chains. Yea I know there are lot of other much more voluntary immigrant groups (not to mention people of mixed race, should have told them cultures "don't meld" before the parents got in bed I guess).
catherine
7-11-16, 11:48am
Since Bernie began spinning his tales of the magical Nordic kingdoms, some (including the Danish Prime Minister) have taken exception to his Utopian claims. I'm sure we will always have something to learn from Finland or Singapore, but I have to assume their value as benchmarks require a good measure of qualification.
I think other people are more likely to brand Bernie as a socialist (oh horrors!! A Socialist! Where's McCarthy when you need him??) than Bernie is--he describes himself as a Democratic socialist and there is a big difference--democratic socialists support capitalism, for one thing. So there is no disconnect between Democratic socialism and what the prime minister calls his own country: a market economy.
And we know there is NO utopia, but Bernie has to point out to people who lack imagination that these crazy ideas just might work. And even Michael Booth says the in the Washington Post article:
Interviewer: You emphasize, in the end, that there is a lot that we can learn from the Nordic countries. What is one of the best lessons?
MB: At least aim for economic and gender equality. Everyone benefits, so it’s worth a shot, no?
Yes, one of Bernie's chief issues: rising economic inequality. So let's start there. [And to keep on topic: how about racial inequality?]
According to Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/economic-inequality-it-s-far-worse-than-you-think/):
We may not want to believe it, but the United States is now the most unequal of all Western nations. To make matters worse, America has considerably less social mobility than Canada and Europe.
As the sociologists Stephen McNamee and Robert Miller Jr. point out in their book, “The Meritocracy Myth,” Americans widely believe that success is due to individual talent and effort. Ironically, when the term "meritocracy” was first used by Michael Young (in his 1958 book “The Rise of the Meritocracy”) it was meant to criticize a society ruled by the talent elite. “It is good sense to appoint individual people to jobs on their merit,” wrote Young in a 2001 essay for the Guardian. “It is the opposite when those who are judged to have merit of a particular kind harden into a new social class without room in it for others.” The creator of the phrase wishes we would stop using it because it underwrites the myth that those who have money and power must deserve it (and the more sinister belief that the less fortunate don’t deserve better).
Ultralight
7-11-16, 11:50am
We may not want to believe it, but the United States is now the most unequal of all Western nations. To make matters worse, America has considerably less social mobility than Canada and Europe.
Catherine... I am not sure you got the memo. This is a sign of success to the GOP. This inequality of wealth and lack of social mobility is what they wanted and they want it to go even further.
So what is the solution if all cultures can't meld? In my fantasy sometimes it's for white people to leave the country, GO BACK HOME, go back to Europe already ...
My Hopi friends want the Navajo to go back home.
My Navajo friends want the Spanish out of their hair.
My Spanish friends want the Anglos to leave.
Me, I live on land that wasn't ever used significantly by any predecessor culture, so my side of the canoe is dry....
Ultralight
7-11-16, 11:53am
I am like 2 or 3 percent Portuguese. Can I go back to Portugal?
ApatheticNoMore
7-11-16, 11:57am
I think other people are more likely to brand Bernie as a socialist (oh horrors!! A Socialist! Where's McCarthy when you need him??) than Bernie is--he describes himself as a Democratic socialist and there is a big difference--democratic socialists support capitalism, for one thing. So there is no disconnect between Democratic socialism and what the prime minister calls his own country: a market economy.
He likes to call himself a socialist, why, who knows, he does have a somewhat activist past so maybe he likes identifying with radicalism. Maybe it's pre-emptive, oh well they're just going to call me a pinko anyway (no matter how politically illiterate this may be and when a guy is going off blabbing about national socialism being socialism like in that article you know they are utterly political illterate). But I think he just likes the label. He's a social Democrat, he's also much like an FDR Democrat. Does anyone anywhere use "Democratic socialist" that way as opposed to "social Democrat?". "Democratic socialist" isn't a term in common use I don't think, but I'd tend to think it means something like worker co-ops, which are socialist, and democratic (or aim to be).
So what is the solution if all cultures can't meld? In my fantasy sometimes it's for white people to leave the country, GO BACK HOME, go back to Europe already (white Sander's supports may not have a problem with this :)). It's the native american's country of course, but what to do with people brought over here in chains. Yea I know there are lot of other much more voluntary immigrant groups (not to mention people of mixed race, should have told them cultures "don't meld" before the parents got in bed I guess).
I find your speciesist attitude inappropriate for the enlightened 21st century. Why should the heirs to the perpetrators of the Woolly Mammoth genocide be granted special privilege? They didn't build the Western Hemisphere.
I find your speciesist attitude inappropriate for the enlightened 21st century. Why should the heirs to the perpetrators of the Woolly Mammoth genocide be granted special privilege? They didn't build the Western Hemisphere.
I've got enough Neanderthal genes that I feel quite comfortable asking you all to get off my lawn!
Ultralight
7-11-16, 12:23pm
I know I sound like a broken record, but I have to wonder if all cultures are not supposed to meld. Some cultures have behavior that other cultures find inappropriate/offensive. But in our country especially, we're supposed to deny all those feelings.
It really irks me that all I'm hearing on the news is "We have to come together!" Well, some people don't want to come together......which is a problem. Of course there are many in each culture who CAN come together. But some cannot. And it can only lead to these types of unrest all the time. But we keep insisting that we all have to be alike, or accepting of most all behaviors. Some behaviors can't ever be accepted. We all have had different pasts and experiences, so we can't really tell each other to believe what we believe, because reality may have led us to a different place.
How would this go over: If we had group discussion with blacks and whites, where people actually said what they really felt? And I'm not talking just about educated people. I fear it would turn into violence.........
Some people just don't want to get along or "conform".
Can you explain this a little more? Perhaps give a few more real-life examples?
Bae..........go ahead and imply I'm a racist. I do a lot of thinking as to why things become the way they do, but it doesn't mean those thoughts come from hatred or unacceptance. I like trying to figure out the root of some problems. I find it curious when some people are so offended by anyone questioning anything. You are one of the first on this forum to jump on anyone who has feelings other than you about gender identity, race, etc.......and yet, at the same time, you come across as quite arrogant/condescending. Those are 2 qualities that I find hard to explain in one person. I'm not trying to insult you......it's just the way I see it.
If the reality is that we are where we are, then of course we have to figure out a way to get along. But not talking about the real issues that divide us isn't going to help at all. And just blanketly saying everyone should accept everyone has their head in the clouds. We deny so much in this country and cover it up with all sorts of platitudes and trying desperately to ignore what's really going on.
I, personally, will try to stay away from society as much as I can. Too many people are just living and acting in ways that just aren't for me.
I've got enough Neanderthal genes that I feel quite comfortable asking you all to get off my lawn!
Well, I paid a web site $29.95 for definitive proof that I am a direct descendant of the primordial soup, so I have complete grievance immunity and ethnic criticism rights!
Ultralight
7-11-16, 12:29pm
I like trying to figure out the root of some problems.
Share some what what you think the roots of the problems are.
But not talking about the real issues that divide us isn't going to help at all.
What do you see as the real issues?
I, personally, will try to stay away from society as much as I can. Too many people are just living and acting in ways that just aren't for me.
I also disengage as much as I can. This culture has become so toxic... The whole Realty TV thing is a key example.
Bae..........go ahead and imply I'm a racist.
I wasn't implying it at all. I've said it quite explicitly before.
I do a lot of thinking as to why things become the way they do, but it doesn't mean those thoughts come from hatred or unacceptance.
Racism doesn't require "hatred or unacceptance". And guess what, we're *all* racist. The key is to see that, and use that awareness in a useful manner.
I find it curious when some people are so offended by anyone questioning anything.
Why do you assume offense from a simple observation of fact?
catherine
7-11-16, 12:56pm
He likes to call himself a socialist, why, who knows, he does have a somewhat activist past so maybe he likes identifying with radicalism. Maybe it's pre-emptive, oh well they're just going to call me a pinko anyway (no matter how politically illiterate this may be and when a guy is going off blabbing about national socialism being socialism like in that article you know they are utterly political illterate). But I think he just likes the label. He's a social Democrat, he's also much like an FDR Democrat. Does anyone anywhere use "Democratic socialist" that way as opposed to "social Democrat?". "Democratic socialist" isn't a term in common use I don't think, but I'd tend to think it means something like worker co-ops, which are socialist, and democratic (or aim to be).
I actually have heard Bernie and others often say that he is a democratic socialist. Wikipedia defines it this way:
Democratic socialism is a political ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production, often with an emphasis on democratic management of enterprises within a socialist economic system.
and
The key difference between socialism and democratic socialism is that democratic socialists don't want the government to own the means of production and socialists do. They believe that certain general social goods like health care should be run by the government, but otherwise support capitalism.
I actually have heard Bernie and others often say that he is a democratic socialist. Wikipedia defines it this way:
and
What's the difference between "social ownership of the means of production" and government control of the means of production?
Ultralight
7-11-16, 2:18pm
What's the difference between "social ownership of the means of production" and government control of the means of production?
This is no difference, really. It is just phrased to make it sound less Marxist. Call it re-branding.
What's the difference between "social ownership of the means of production" and government control of the means of production?
Social ownership is private ownership--at least that's how I understand it. Here's another good article on the difference (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/471630/) from The Atlantic:
In a social democracy, individuals and corporations continue to own the capital and the means of production. Much of the wealth, in other words, is produced privately. That said, taxation, government spending, and regulation of the private sector are much heavier under social democracy than would be the case under pure capitalism.
The debate over Senator Sanders’ socialism is rich with paradoxes. Senator Sanders is not a proponent of socialism, and that is a good thing, for true socialism, whenever and wherever it has been tried, ended in disaster. Nor is America the bastion of capitalism that some make it out to be. In fact, U.S. taxes, spending, and regulation are quite high when compared to truly economically free countries. America’s is a mixed economy and so are Scandinavian countries’. It is the mixture that differs.
This is no difference, really. It is just phrased to make it sound less Marxist. Call it re-branding.
So "If we control something then it really doesn't matter whose name is on the title"?
It does seem like a pretty fine distinction.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 2:25pm
Social ownership is private ownership--at least that's how I understand it. Here's another good article on the difference (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/471630/) from The Atlantic:
So if social ownership is private ownership then what is a social democrat? A private democrat?
So if social ownership is private ownership then what is a social democrat? A private democrat?
A social democrat believes in government control of some basic services and regulation of some private enterprises, but within a capitalist framework. The article can explain it much better than I can!
Ultralight
7-11-16, 2:59pm
Seems mealy-mouthed.
ApatheticNoMore
7-11-16, 3:02pm
I don't think the article is very good, ok I think everyone who reads the article is made stupider by reading it, the Atlantic has really jumped the shark.
Although I don't disagree with this, although it's very broad and so could apply to most ideologies (but not socialism):
A social democrat believes in government control of some basic services and regulation of some private enterprises, but within a capitalist framework.
iris lilies
7-11-16, 3:09pm
Catherine... I am not sure you got the memo. This is a sign of success to the GOP. This inequality of wealth and lack of social mobility is what they wanted and they want it to go even further.
Lack of social mobility? There are fewer households now in the middle class. Thats because 2/3 of those who moved out of the middle class moved up.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 3:11pm
Lack of social mobility? There are fewer households now n the middle class. Thats bdcause 2/3 of those who moved out ofmthe middle class moved up.
Yup, now the upper class in America is huge!
Lack of social mobility?
I grew up in a single-wide in the woods. Now I have a mansion and a yacht. Well, several, actually.
iris lilies
7-11-16, 3:15pm
I wasn't implying it at all. I've said it quite explicitly before.
Racism doesn't require "hatred or unacceptance". And guess what, we're *all* racist. The key is to see that, and use that awareness in a useful manner.
And here I thought the Right REv. UL would be the first to take us all to task on that issue.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 3:21pm
I grew up in a single-wide in the woods. Now I have a mansion and a yacht. Well, several, actually.
Everyone who grows up in a single-wide in the woods can have a mansion and a yacht. Well, several actually. Duh.
In bae's world the exception is the rule!
Like Rubot once said:
"We're not a nation of haves and have-nots. We're a nation of haves and will-haves!
Yeeeeeehaw!
Ultralight
7-11-16, 3:22pm
And here I thought the Right REv. UL would be the first to take us all to task on that issue.
Which issue exactly? I still have time!
iris lilies
7-11-16, 3:28pm
Which issue exactly? I still have time!telling us that we are all racists.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 3:32pm
telling us that we are all racists.
What do you mean? You thought I was going to say you were all racists?
Ultralight
7-11-16, 3:32pm
I grew up in a single-wide in the woods. Now I have a mansion and a yacht. Well, several, actually.
Can all 7 billion humans on the planet have several mansions and yachts?
iris lilies
7-11-16, 3:38pm
What do you mean? You thought I was going to say you were all racists?
yep.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 3:39pm
yep.
I am not so sure about that. Let me ask you specifically, IL. Are you a racist?
Some people just don't want to get along or "conform".
Which race are you talking about? The whites down South in the 60s who were unwilling to conform with new anti-segregation laws, and so they started killing blacks and civil rights workers? What are we supposed to conform with?
Racism doesn't require "hatred or unacceptance". And guess what, we're *all* racist. The key is to see that, and use that awareness in a useful manner.
I read an article (http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/what-is-white-supremacy/) about how we shouldn't use the word "racism"--we should call it white supremacy, which is closer to what the problem really is--that is to say, systemic.
I haven't formed an opinion on this yet, but it's an interesting idea.
iris lilies
7-11-16, 3:58pm
I am not so sure about that. Let me ask you specifically, IL. Are you a racist?
You define the word first.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 4:01pm
You define the word first.
I need to ask, why do I define the word "racist?"
This is what I got at the top of the list on a google search. Does it work for you?
"a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another."
I grew up in a single-wide in the woods. Now I have a mansion and a yacht. Well, several, actually.
You should sell a few of the yachts and buy a helicopter. Then you'll be really mobile.
iris lilies
7-11-16, 4:04pm
I need to ask, why do I define the word "racist?"
This is what I got at the top of the list on a google search. Does it work for you?
"a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another."
ok then, using that definition, I will not label myself a "racist."
Ultralight
7-11-16, 4:06pm
ok then, using that definition, I will not label myself a "racist."
Is there another definition of racist that would allow you to label yourself racist? This is intriguing.
I grew up in a single-wide in the woods. Now I have a mansion and a yacht. Well, several, actually.
On Bae, you're so silly. You think you have to one-up everyone and have the most of everything and have had every experience known to man, and every job. You really don't have to do that. People would probably still like you.
Recent research on brain activity/reaction time that I've seen suggests that we all have interesting biases against/for people of specific types that operate at the subconscious level. How we recognize and deal with those biases seems worth thinking about.
If you use the elementary-school definition of "racist", and tag along with it the connotations of "evil, bad, immoral", then of course it hurts to think about being "racist", and you can't talk about the subject. If you utilize one of the more nuanced definitions, which speaks to prejudice, then it seems we are all "racist", and that doesn't speak to our character so much as it does to the nature of our brains.
On Bae, you're so silly. You think you have to one-up everyone and have the most of everything and have had every experience known to man, and every job. You really don't have to do that. People would probably still like you.
I simply speak the truth. And not the words you are putting in my mouth.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 4:18pm
Recent research on brain activity/reaction time that I've seen suggests that we all have interesting biases against/for people of specific types that operate at the subconscious level. How we recognize and deal with those biases seems worth thinking about.
I have read about some of this. I find it intriguing.
For instance:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27/this-study-found-race-matters-in-police-shootings-but-the-results-may-surprise-you/
Recent research on brain activity/reaction time that I've seen suggests that we all have interesting biases against/for people of specific types that operate at the subconscious level. How we recognize and deal with those biases seems worth thinking about.
I think part of it is the way we're hard-wired to use shortcuts for information. We don't have time to analyze everything about every individual person, place or thing, so we tend to do the more efficient thing which is put things in boxes in our brains. If we then create stories or are fed stories by our tribes about what is in these boxes which contain many people, places and things, we start to believe the stories which are typically simplified "cartoons" based on faulty perceptions, fears, and hopes.
I just feel it's totally natural to want to be with like-people and to be wary of "others". I think we're hard-wired to feel that way. It can also be a protective mechanism to make connections of people who are like the ones we've had bad experiences with.
We fight instinct so hard, as humans. Would it be best if we could all get along? Of course! I'm just saying that there is more than one reason for shying away from certain people/groups. And I don't believe that if you give someone a job and money, and be nice to them, that they will turn around their bad behavior. Some yes, but others no. And I feel this group is growing and getting away with bad behavior.
My feelings about this are because of my own personal experiences throughout my life, and what is happening every day in the city near here. Just remember........I voted for Obama twice. (But I'm sure that will elicit put-downs too).
iris lilies
7-11-16, 4:33pm
Is there another definition of racist that would allow you to label yourself racist? This is intriguing.
I dont know.
now, about you--are you racist? According to the definition you pulled off Google (which agreed, doesnt support much in the way of enlightening dialog) are you racist?
is there another definition that would allow you to label yourself racist? This is (not especially) intrigung.
Can all 7 billion humans on the planet have several mansions and yachts?
What's wrong with a few lucky/clever/hardworking ones getting rich?
I just feel it's totally natural to want to be with like-people and to be wary of "others".
What if it's natural to be polyamorous? It probably is, and yet we created social constructs around monogamy. Why not address racism the same way?
I remember you talking about walking into a restaurant where there were loud black people, so "everyone" sat as far away as possible. From what I understand, they were not bad loud, just loud. Try to imagine how your reaction might have been different if they were white? What if you were at the next table when my family of 14 had a bit too much wine, were pretty darn noisy and my husband got up and recited Gunga Din in front of the whole restaurant? Would you have been just as offended? Maybe you would have been a little offended, but would you have had the EXACT same feelings that you did about that black family who was just there having a good time?
I agree that we like being with like-minded people, but why judge people with no knowledge of them? Why be wary just on principle? I disagree with that part. I don't think we are born wary of others on the basis of skin color. As a mother, you can probably remember your children walking up to strangers. In my experience, children are color-blind. We teach our children to put people in little boxes.
In putting this into the discussion about the police being racist with blacks........In some of these cities, these police come in contact with those who act aggressive/disrespectful/and potentially dangerous all the time. For the police, it can be a life and death situation. So what if over the course of several months, an office interacts with a number of blacks who pulled a gun on them, or even a knife. How long does the cop wait, before he pulls his gun and prepares to shoot, before the other person pulls his and shoots? This is a very thin line. And if the cop shoots a millisecond too soon......then he's a racist. If he waits a millisecond too long, then he's dead.
What if a cop has pulled dozens of blacks over in their cars in the past year, and it has been a dangerous situation in most of those instances. Wouldn't that cop be stupid to not be prepared for trouble in the future similar situations......even if it's just a broken taillight?
Like catherine said......our brains do make shorter connections, to make like easier.....and safer. But to have a more peaceful country, we try to understand those connections and maybe try to change them. But it's really hard and I sometimes think it's asking too much for our primitive brains..........to over-ride the natural warning system they have.....to keep us safe.
And I think some people just don't live in an area with lots of crime, and it's much more easy for them to say certain things and call people racist, when their experiences might be so different.
We were writing at the same time catherine. Actually, the next weekend we were at that restaurant and there was a group of loud whites. Yes, it bothered me, but it didn't elicit the same irritation. But that's because it seems like the blacks I've been around in general are soooooo loud. (And at the same time they are talking poor English, and dressed inappropriately and ill-mannered).
But you need to understand that even though those black folks at the restaurant were loud, I still saw them as decent people........just loud.
But I see lots of blacks being very racist........but it seems to always be the whites who are accused of it.
And like I said........there's a ton of black crime in the neighboring city. I mean every night.
It gets really hard to not make connections when the majority of certain peoples that I might see display the same kind of behavior.
If everyone stopped segmenting people by their skin color, if politicians stopped developing their base of support among racial or genetic separatists, if the media would make an effort to be color blind and everyday people stopped categorizing people by race and putting them into the appropriate box, how would you all know who to disapprove of?
Lack of social mobility? There are fewer households now in the middle class. Thats because 2/3 of those who moved out of the middle class moved up.
I'm in that category. I read somewhere that the upper bound on the middle class for a family of three was $120K/year. That puts us into lower-upper by about dinner at a mid-priced restaurant (before the tip). I don't feel top drawer. I do OK in the unassuming Midwest, but in Tribeca I'd be a prole. This whole class thing is confusing.
Ultralight
7-11-16, 5:10pm
(And at the same time they are talking poor English, and dressed inappropriately and ill-mannered).
You mean "speaking English poorly."
But I see lots of blacks being very racist........but it seems to always be the whites who are accused of it.
And like I said........there's a ton of black crime in the neighboring city. I mean every night.
It gets really hard to not make connections when the majority of certain peoples that I might see display the same kind of behavior.
Dealing with mending racial tension is a difficult issue to be sure, but we won't get anywhere by giving into feelings that turn into tinder for the next civil war. It's in our pure self-interest to pray that we may "seek to understand rather than be understood, seek to love rather than be loved."
If everyone stopped segmenting people by their skin color, if politicians stopped developing their base of support among racial or genetic separatists, if the media would make an effort to be color blind and everyday people stopped categorizing people by race and putting them into the appropriate box, how would you all know who to disapprove of?
haha!... well, that wouldn't be much fun. What would we have to talk about?
Dealing with mending racial tension is a difficult issue to be sure, but we won't get anywhere by giving into feelings that turn into tinder for the next civil war. It's in our pure self-interest to pray that we may "seek to understand rather than be understood, seek to love rather than be loved."
Thank you catherine.
I would love to get to a place that I felt it was less color based and more person based, but I think we have a long way to go. I think that one way is to recognize we do feel more comfortable with people similar to us, and sometimes that is race. But I wonder what is going to happen as our kids who are in much more racially diverse setting grow up? I have said several times before that I live in a pretty racially diverse area and work in schools where I am the minority. I have found that I actually feel awkward in places that are really, really white. Just not the people I am used to, like I am not used to being around all straight people. So I do see hope but so many set-backs as well.
catherine
7-11-16, 10:14pm
Thank you catherine.
Thank you for your honesty...
Lack of social mobility? There are fewer households now in the middle class. Thats because 2/3 of those who moved out of the middle class moved up.
The latest study i read on this said that basically the middle class has been cleaved in half. Half (including me) are doing better. Half are doing worse. Less are solidly in the middle. I seem to remember discussing it here a month or two ago. I'm on my phone at the moment but will look it up later if need be.
iris lilies
7-11-16, 10:53pm
The latest study i read on this said that basically the middle class has been cleaved in half. Half (including me) are doing better. Half are doing worse. Less are solidly in the middle. I seem to remember discussing it here a month or two ago. I'm on my phone at the moment but will look it up later if need be.
We did talk about it, it seems, but I just heard the stats again last week.
The explanation of this chart says that most of the families that moved out of the middle class moved up.
iris lily
7-11-16, 10:56pm
We did talk about it, it seems, but I just heard the stats again last week.
The explanation of this chart says that most of the families that moved out of the middle class moved up.
Well lets try that chart now:
1613
iris lilies
7-11-16, 11:21pm
Well lets try that chart now:
I switched to our PC and now can't find the damned chart so as to provide a readable link, I know this tiny version is not readable..
To be continued...
Yossarian
7-12-16, 12:07am
I switched to our PC and now can't find the damned chart so as to provide a readable link, I know this tiny version is not readable..
To be continued...
https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/P1-BX810A_UPPER_9U_20160621175707.jpg
Methinks using "income level" to determine "class" is a mistake.
Some years I have near-zero income....
Methinks using "income level" to determine "class" is a mistake.
Some years I have near-zero income....
We all know that you're not typical. Among those who work for a living how would you recommend differentiating those who have moved up the income ladder versus those who have moved down?
We all know that you're not typical. Among those who work for a living how would you recommend differentiating those who have moved up the income ladder versus those who have moved down?
I run into this problem quite frequently when working with our local affordable housing groups - people who have net worths, but problematic income.
YMOYL encouraged us to think about more than just "income" as a useful measure...
By all means, if you want to define "classes" by income, have at it, but you'll miss out on some important things...
Ultralight
7-12-16, 7:32am
We all know that you're not typical. Among those who work for a living how would you recommend differentiating those who have moved up the income ladder versus those who have moved down?
But anyone -- literally anyone and everyone -- could do what bae did and does!
I suspect he'd suggest that everyone just do what he did/does!
There are ways that people deal with money that are middle class style as compared to chronically low income/poor style. You can see some cultures that also are more comfortable with different ways of dealing with money. Of course this is a GROSS simplefying of it all. There are people who regardless of the income will save when they get a little more than they need to spend right then, look for longer lasting value in purchases, and look for opportunities to earn more with the understanding it is often a longer process than winning some money. Then there are groups of people who don't ever save, no matter how much or how little they have, tend to buy for a quick fix and look at income and earning more short term. That is how I would explain economic class.
Now the rest of it, language, clothing, how you decorate a house, educational level, activities and hobbies, etc. is another part of social class. It can be related or not related to money however some of it seems to get into racial territory. I will admit that I am not comfortable with everyone, it has a lot to do with these factors more than current income or race, and I get my assumptions tested all the time. When I moved into a traditionally black neighborhood I had a lot of assumptions, met a few vegans, some health food nuts, a lovely transgender man. Okay time to admit my own stuff!
iris lilies
7-12-16, 8:19am
Methinks using "income level" to determine "class" is a mistake.
Some years I have near-zero income....
Well,sure it is, but income is the easiest to measure. And by "class" any one of these studies means "income class." The cuktural thngs that define class arent covered in these studies.
Methinks using "income level" to determine "class" is a mistake.
Some years I have near-zero income....
Assuming for the moment that the whole concept of class isn't meaningless, why not just divide your net worth by your estimated life expectancy for a number roughly comparable to W2/1099 income?
But anyone -- literally anyone and everyone -- could do what bae did and does!
I suspect he'd suggest that everyone just do what he did/does!
Just because everybody can't be rich doesn't mean nobody should be rich.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 8:37am
Just because everybody can't be rich doesn't mean nobody should be rich.
Just because so many live in poverty does not mean that they should (so a few can be ultra wealthy).
Just because so many live in poverty does not mean that they should (so a few can be ultra wealthy).
You seem to be assuming that one person's poverty is a result of another person's wealth. I don't see it as a simplistic zero-sum game. If bae were to scuttle his fleet of yachts tomorrow, it wouldn't improve the situation of the poor in South Sudan.
Just because so many live in poverty does not mean that they should (so a few can be ultra wealthy).
I'm going to side with LDAHL in this one. I don't think wealth is a zero-sum game. I'm not against individuals being wealthy. I'm not even against individuals being EXTREMELY wealthy. I'm against an economic system without the necessary checks and balances to ensure that the highest percentage of the population have equal say in how the government is run and an equal opportunity for success. This requires a more even distribution of wealth that what we have now.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 8:54am
I'm going to side with LDAHL in this one. I don't think wealth is a zero-sum game. I'm not against individuals being wealthy. I'm not even against individuals being EXTREMELY wealthy. I'm against an economic system without the necessary checks and balances to ensure that the highest percentage of the population have equal say in how the government is run and an equal opportunity for success. This requires a more even distribution of wealth that what we have now.
The planet is finite.
And would your Jesus condone owning a fleet of private jets, an army of yachts, vast swaths of land all over the world, oil wells, coal mines, etc.?
Also: How does a person get extremely wealthy? What do they do to accrue that kind of wealth?
I am asking you to think deeper. You are still in the shallows.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 8:59am
I don't see it as a simplistic zero-sum game.
How you see it may not matter. It still could be a zero-sum game. I am not saying it is or it isn't. But I am still open to the idea that it is.
If bae were to scuttle his fleet of yachts tomorrow, it wouldn't improve the situation of the poor in South Sudan.
I am not so sure that is true. Where did the metals get mined for those yachts? Where did the wood come from? The plastics to equip them? Where did the labor come from and under what kind of conditions? When you start asking and answering these questions you see a world-wide exploitation of people and the earth.
So the South Sudanese begin to look a little less distant.
The planet is finite.
And would your Jesus condone owning a fleet of private jets, an army of yachts, vast swaths of land all over the world, oil wells, coal mines, etc.?
Also: How does a person get extremely wealthy? What do they do to accrue that kind of wealth?
I am asking you to think deeper. You are still in the shallows.
The planet may be finite but human ingenuity is considerably less so. If bae had made his money strip-mining or human trafficking, you might have a point, but your assumption that wealth flows from necessarily evil sources or practices seems fairly shallow to me.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 9:07am
I would say human ingenuity is the reason we're running headlong into the finite-ness of the planet so quickly.
Follow the money, LD. You will find exploitation of humans and environmental destruction along that path at every step.
I am not so sure that is true. Where did the metals get mined for those yachts? Where did the wood come from? The plastics to equip them? Where did the labor come from and under what kind of conditions? When you start asking and answering these questions you see a world-wide exploitation of people and the earth.
Unless all that was accomplished with stolen materials and slave labor, I would call that beneficial economic activity transacted between willing buyers and sellers.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 9:20am
Unless all that was accomplished with stolen materials and slave labor, I would call that beneficial economic activity transacted between willing buyers and sellers.
All? What about some? And define slave labor.
Have you seen the documentary True Cost?
The planet is finite.
And would your Jesus condone owning a fleet of private jets, an army of yachts, vast swaths of land all over the world, oil wells, coal mines, etc.?
Also: How does a person get extremely wealthy? What do they do to accrue that kind of wealth?
I am asking you to think deeper. You are still in the shallows.
I think that when we start looking at people's gains as our loss, it's not helpful. It's better to just look at the big picture and work on creating a society that works for most of us. Would I be thrilled if values worldwide shifted and all of a sudden the dominant attraction to resource-sucking stuff was replaced by a mass desire for a simple, ecologically regenerative lifestyle? Of course I would! But until we have a complete breakdown of civilization, there will always be some people who are wealthier and some people who are poorer. Even "my" Jesus said "the poor will be always with us." At the same time I agree with almost everything in Pope Francis's encyclical on the environment. I agree with you that care for the environment and unfettered capitalism are at cross purposes. But who am I to say who can buy a yacht and who can built a chain of hotels and who host opulent parties and who can't?
My answer comes from economic standpoint--not an ethical or environmental one. From a political perspective, when the majority of the wealth is in the hands of the few, that's just a recipe for disaster, because he who has the money has the power, and that doesn't go unnoticed by the have-nots. If you look at history, things don't typically bode well for the 1%ers when the balance of power shifts into the hands of just a few.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 9:33am
I think that when we start looking at people's gains as our loss, it's not helpful.
To whom? Tell that to the poor folks of West Virginia when the coal barons ravaged the place. Tell that to the many Africans exploited for precious metals, diamonds, and oil. Tell that to the pregnant Bangladeshi woman slaving away in a sweatshop 12 hours a day everyday. Say to her: "Don't look at the corporate oligarchs' gains as your loss. It is not helpful!"
Even "my" Jesus said "the poor will be always with us."
Excellent rationale for exploitation! Spread the "prosperity gospel!" Jesus wants you to be rich -- and don't worry about the poor. Maybe throw them a crumb or two.
catherine
7-12-16, 10:01am
To whom? Tell that to the poor folks of West Virginia when the coal barons ravaged the place. Tell that to the many Africans exploited for precious metals, diamonds, and oil. Tell that to the pregnant Bangladeshi woman slaving away in a sweatshop 12 hours a day everyday. Say to her: "Don't look at the corporate oligarchs' gains as your loss. It is not helpful!"
I didn't communicate properly. You know that I am against this type of gross injustice, and that exactly what I said when I talked about proper checks and balances in a capitalistic society. What I am saying is that if YOU, UA, decided to buy a huge mansion and you also bought a huge lake in Ohio so you could fish from your Boston Whaler, if I say your gain is my loss while I, catherine, sit here poor in New Jersey, I'm just sounding jealous and unreasonable. That's all I meant. Sure you can reduce all production and consumption to exploitation --hey, I've read all of Derrick Jensen's books and I agree with much of them--but for the sake of our argument here, I think it's too simplistic.
Excellent rationale for exploitation! Spread the "prosperity gospel!" Jesus wants you to be rich -- and don't worry about the poor. Maybe throw them a crumb or two.
This has absolutely nothing to do with exploitation OR the prosperity gospel. It's about the wealthy NOT noticing the poor and evading their responsibility to the poor and needy. He said the poor will be always among us, and, it's on us, individually and corporately, to help them.
iris lilies
7-12-16, 10:02am
To whom? Tell that to the poor folks of West Virginia when the coal barons ravaged the place. Tell that to the many Africans exploited for precious metals, diamonds, and oil. Tell that to the pregnant Bangladeshi woman slaving away in a sweatshop 12 hours a day everyday. Say to her: "Don't look at the corporate oligarchs' gains as your loss. It is not helpful!"
Excellent rationale for exploitation! Spread the "prosperity gospel!" Jesus wants you to be rich -- and don't worry about the poor. Maybe throw them a crumb or two.
UL, your words are nothing new or interesting. It would be nice to be relieved of your lecturing ways for a while. Perhaps you could give us a rest and hop on over to another site for a bit.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 10:03am
UL, your words are nothing new or interesting. It would be nice to be relieved of your lecturing ways for a while. Perhaps you could give us a rest and hop on over to another site for a bit.
Hello pot! Call me kettle.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 10:05am
It would be nice to be relieved of your lecturing ways for a while.
Easy fix. Block me.
iris lilies
7-12-16, 10:19am
Hello pot! Call me kettle.
Haha, well, ok.
gimmethesimplelife
7-12-16, 12:44pm
Something else that really bothers me about these protests over this issue. It seems that scattered around the country the police have been vindictively ruining lives by arresting peaceful protestors for no reason. Watch for huge settlements to be doled out for wrongful arrests - I'd be suing for multiple millions too for having my life ruined via a frivolous arrest. I love and respect myself and I care what happens to me - I'd gun for top dollar under these circumstances. My question is: Are the police overall so without a clue that they don't understand some of their Behaviors are contributing to the increasing instability of this society? It really would seem as if they just don't get this. Rob
Something else that really bothers me about these protests over this issue. It seems that scattered around the country the police have been vindictively ruining lives by arresting peaceful protestors for no reason. Watch for huge settlements to be doled out for wrongful arrests - I'd be suing for multiple millions too for having my life ruined via a frivolous arrest. I love and respect myself and I care what happens to me - I'd gun for top dollar under these circumstances. My question is: Are the police overall so without a clue that they don't understand some of their Behaviors are contributing to the increasing instability of this society? It really would seem as if they just don't get this. Rob
I must have lived a sheltered life. By and large, I have found the law enforcement people I've known and worked with to compare pretty favorably with the average run of humanity in honor and decency. But even if we accept your view that our society is so degenerate that we employ depraved monsters who kill on a whim and destroy lives out of spite, with little fear of being brought to account, I'm puzzled by the faith you seem to have in civil actions. If our criminal justice system is as corrupt as you say it is, what makes you think the civil justice system is any better?
Ultralight
7-12-16, 2:03pm
Serpico!
Something else that really bothers me about these protests over this issue. It seems that scattered around the country the police have been vindictively ruining lives by arresting peaceful protestors for no reason. Watch for huge settlements to be doled out for wrongful arrests - I'd be suing for multiple millions too for having my life ruined via a frivolous arrest. I love and respect myself and I care what happens to me - I'd gun for top dollar under these circumstances. My question is: Are the police overall so without a clue that they don't understand some of their Behaviors are contributing to the increasing instability of this society? It really would seem as if they just don't get this. Rob
In your case, I'm guessing the behaviors contributing to the increasing instability of this society revolve around cashing in.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 2:33pm
In your case, I'm guessing the behaviors contributing to the increasing instability of this society revolve around cashing in.
Can you clarify? I am not sure I get your meaning.
Can you clarify? I am not sure I get your meaning.
Sure you do. I know you've been educated past the point of reason but some things are obvious to everyone, even you.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 3:14pm
Sure you do. I know you've been educated past the point of reason but some things are obvious to everyone, even you.
Argh... I was being sincere.
iris lilies
7-12-16, 3:16pm
If only we had a cop at every corner, I could relax.
Today at 12:30 pm I called DH on his cell phone to check that he was OK. He usually comes home for lunch at 11:30.
he was working in our ghetto gatdens and I worry when he is late. He was ok today! Just late in finishing a weeding job.
one time years ago , he ran over there to get a piece of equipment and was gone for 40 minutes. I worried. When he came back he had had an encounter with the criminal element who he found loading up their car with something stolen from our property. He didnt chase them, he noted for their license plate and watched them drive off. I am glad that he wasnt there five minutes earlier.
As I often say, the fewer cops in Rob's neighborhood, the more cops for my neighborhood. thanks, Rob!
I had to laugh when someone (was it here?) talked about how e cops need to get involved in communities, get out of their cars, get to know people where they patrol.
That's exactly what our neighborhood cop, Brian, does. He is on bike patrol now, and If I were his wife i would not be able to sleep at the thought of how vulnerable he is riding around on his bike. Ugh. The war on cops will cause them to justifiably get into patrol cars two at a time to have metal between them and the criminal element and to have a buddy backup.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 3:23pm
If only we had a cop at every corner, I could relax.
Mucho tax dollars.
iris lilies
7-12-16, 3:27pm
Mucho tax dollars.oh, I know, its not at all practical. It is just my way of saying "cops good, perps bad."
Mucho tax dollars.
The neighborhoods that need that level of policing typically don't have that level of tax revenue available.
The neighborhoods that have that sort of tax revenue typically don't need that level of policing.
Weird.
I think the process would be:
1. Get arrested for failure to disperse (a misdemeanor offense most places).
2. Successfully sue for false arrest.
3. Successfully establish damages of "multiple millions" in physical or psychological harm and diminished employment prospects.
4. Collect said millions.
5. Invest some portion of said millions in obtaining citizenship in some more congenial country.
6. Take comfortable satisfaction in the punishment you inflicted on "America" (aka the taxpayers).
Here is our neighborhood officer Brian who rides around now on a bike or a scooter. He used to have this golf cart thingie:
1615
Ultralight
7-12-16, 3:44pm
oh, I know, its not at all practical. It is just my way of saying "cops good, perps bad."
You must live in a really high crime area.
You must live in a really high crime area.
I live in a low crime area, but I agree with IL.
Teacher Terry
7-12-16, 4:17pm
IL: is your whole town that bad or just where you live? When I went to grad school in Milwaukee the only way to get there was thru the ghetto. even though my car had no air I had the windows rolled up once I got off the freeway and hoped my car did not break down (before cell phones). However, like most towns milwaukee had good and bad places to live. It just so happens that the university was built near the lake and then unfortunately the neighborhood around it became shit.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 4:18pm
IL:
Have you tried gentrifying the area?
Yeah, cops on bicycles just look silly......gun or no gun. I'm sure they're useful somewhere.......but not in a violent area.
iris lilies
7-12-16, 4:49pm
IL:
Have you tried gentrifying the area?
I dont even know where to start.:help:
ok, let's try: is sinking $100,000 into a property that we will not ever get back good enough for you, internet social warrior?
If not, how much SHoULD we sink into that 'nabe? I mean, to help the poor and downtrodden because I am quite certain you dont care if the rich 10% lose money. What more do I owe them?
but oh wait, internet social justice warrior, will you complain when gentrifying pushes out the poor people, those poor people who are not crooks but who often harbor the crooks? Would that be a problem for you? I'm sure it would be, it always is.
Ultralight
7-12-16, 5:23pm
I dont even know where to start.:help:
ok, let's try: is sinking $100,000 into a property that we will not ever get back good enough for you, internet social warrior?
If not, how much SHoULD we sink into that 'nabe? I mean, to help the poor and downtrodden because I am quite certain you dont care if the rich 10% lose money. What more do I owe them?
but oh wait, internet social justice warrior, will you complain when gentrifying pushes out the poor people, those poor people who are not crooks but who often harbor the crooks? Would that be a problem for you? I'm sure it would be, it always is.
It is like you barely tried.
Teacher Terry
7-12-16, 5:39pm
I would move into an area where i wasn't afraid. The whole town can't be that bad.
iris lilies
7-12-16, 5:53pm
It is like you barely tried.
I know! We are just self centered rich people who are hoarding our money and keeping it out of the ecnomy. We do think that it is our money to use as it best benefits us, and if it lifts a few others up while we are spendng it, that is great!!! :0!
On a related note we are selling one of our little houses this week (fingers crossed for it to go through) and while we didnt fully develop the property, we did put thousands into it to strengthen and preserve the original facade and we paid $$$ to have junk trees removed so that they wouldnt fall onto the tiny house. That is craploads of money down the drain, but I am ok with that. This tiny house is so cute, I enjoyed havng a big garden there for a while and daydreaming about developing it. It sits in a better 'nabe than our tiny ghetto houses.
I believe our President has said a few choice words about money hoarders like us. :laff:
iris lilies
7-12-16, 6:00pm
I would move into an area where i wasn't afraid. The whole town can't be that bad.
I hesitate to use the word "afraid" because I dntreally feel that way. Yes, I worry about DH and the dog, but never feel actual fear, just a gemeral sense of worry.
We live in a neighborhood that has the lowest crime rate in the Central corridor/near south side9f the city. It is gentrified to the max. However, two blocks away and not part of our geographic neighborhood, there are public housing projects where crime is damned high. It spills over to us all too often.
We have a huge garden in an adjacent neighborhood that is not gentrified but is working its way up. Our tiny houses there are on the bad edge of that gentrifying neighborhood. Things are quite dicey quite often. Murders, shootings, dead baby in dumpster, team of LEOs with long guns shooing out problem residents: I have seen that all take place in the past 2-3 years.
keep in mind that when I was walkng a lot some years ago, I regularly walked from my house thru the bad 'nabe into a better one at night. Friends told me I was crazy, but since I did not feel afraid, I did it. I wouldnt want my daughter doing that, however.
Teacher Terry
7-12-16, 6:43pm
So it seems like it is an in-between neighborhood. I lived in one of those when I lived in the Midwest. Although, we were farther away from the stuff going on-about 8 blocks. Hopefully, it will continue to improve.
Yeah, cops on bicycles just look silly......gun or no gun. I'm sure they're useful somewhere.......but not in a violent area.
They won't look silly as we have more and more bicycle traffic, and anyway they're very effective in stalled traffic, and good for public relations.
Crime has recently come to my neighborhood, which is about as out of the way as you can get, down at the end of a winding dead end road. I had a yard cart stolen just after dark, while I watched, and two separate packages out of my mailbox, prompting me to rent a PO box (which I love). I'm assuming desperate druggies; they seem to be everywhere these days.
iris lilies
7-12-16, 7:52pm
They won't look silly as we have more and more bicycle traffic, and anyway they're very effective in stalled traffic, and good for public relations.
Crime has recently come to my neighborhood, which is about as out of the way as you can get, down at the end of a winding dead end road. I had a yard cart stolen just after dark, while I watched, and two separate packages out of my mailbox, prompting me to rent a PO box (which I love). I'm assuming desperate druggies; they seem to be everywhere these days.
You reported these crimes, right?
You reported these crimes, right?
I did. I stupidly did not have the cart engraved, so I'm pretty sure that's lost forever. The Post Office acted like I was bothering them. I had proof of one loss--Amazon had delivered it, and when I went out to pick it up from the mailbox, there was a piece of mail on the ground, and no package. The call taker kept asking how I knew it was stolen. It seemed obvious to me.
gimmethesimplelife
7-14-16, 10:48am
I think the process would be:
1. Get arrested for failure to disperse (a misdemeanor offense most places).
2. Successfully sue for false arrest.
3. Successfully establish damages of "multiple millions" in physical or psychological harm and diminished employment prospects.
4. Collect said millions.
5. Invest some portion of said millions in obtaining citizenship in some more congenial country.
6. Take comfortable satisfaction in the punishment you inflicted on "America" (aka the taxpayers).My point awhile back was that there have been life ruining arrests scattered across the US for no reason whatsoever, not even for a failure to disperse. Just random arrests as some police don't care for protestors having the nerve to protest this issue. In this case my personal belief is that any settlement of less than 300 million is too little. There has to be a point where we as a nation give up and cash in.....maybe that will lead to quicker changes in the system anyway?
Were I arrested for no reason whatsoever I'd gun for top dollar, not so much for the money but due to retaliatory moral outrage. Certainly in the 85006 this is what we believe the best hope for change is - a relentless stream of crippling legal settlements. I wish things were not this way.....but for those of you who don't understand, look at it this way. To have your life ruined by being arrested for no reason - the police are viciously drawing first blood in this case. My way keeps the perps alive and gives the victims of the police hope for a future regardless of an unwarranted arrest record. Actually, what I advocate is more humane than what the police dish out. Rob
I don't think there's much basis in law for "retaliatory moral outrage".
My point awhile back was that there have been life ruining arrests scattered across the US for no reason whatsoever, not even for a failure to disperse. Just random arrests as some police don't care for protestors having the nerve to protest this issue.
How many of these arrests have been made across the US?
What charges were filed for these "no reason" arrests?
What ended up on the person's permanent record for the "no reason" arrest?
Were I arrested for no reason whatsoever I'd gun for top dollar, not so much for the money but due to retaliatory moral outrage. Certainly in the 85006 this is what we believe the best hope for change is - a relentless stream of crippling legal settlements.
Where does the money to pay off that "crippling legal settlement" come from? Who does it actually cripple?
Ultralight
7-21-16, 8:07am
And another one...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/21/fla-police-shoot-black-man-with-his-hands-up-as-he-tries-to-help-autistic-patient/
When will the white privilege deniers wake up?
How many of these arrests have been made across the US?
What charges were filed for these "no reason" arrests?
What ended up on the person's permanent record for the "no reason" arrest?
Where does the money to pay off that "crippling legal settlement" come from? Who does it actually cripple?
Real-life examples: read Matt Taibbi's book "The Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap."
or check out the continuing saga of our famous Sheriff Joe who is now - finally - starting to back off from his continued defiance of federal law regarding detaining and arresting people he suspected of being illegals. It took a determined judge to make him understand sheriffs are not above the law.
And another one...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/21/fla-police-shoot-black-man-with-his-hands-up-as-he-tries-to-help-autistic-patient/
When will the white privilege deniers wake up?
What would "waking up" entail in practical terms? Do history's favored children need to acknowledge a sort of original sin along the lines of a Maoist self-criticism circle? Is it enough to color-blindly treat everybody with equal respect and decency, or do we need to submit to some sort of moral/political handicapping system and consciously look for opportunities for remedial action?
How would you see the behavior of people of good will differing between someone who accepts the idea of "white privilege" from an equally decent person who doesn't?
Real-life examples: read Matt Taibbi's book "The Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap." .
I was asking for data, not anecdote. Given the size of the USA, I can find an anecdote to support almost any claim, which is why I like to look a bit deeper....
gimmethesimplelife
7-21-16, 10:00am
I've come back to add to this thread after more police shootings have taken place around the US. For once I'm going to go against the majority of thinking in the 85006, which can be summed up by the police made this bed, let them sleep in it. I am very much against the shootings of police officers just as much as I am against a culture that allows police to kill with minimal if any checks/balances/consequences. I don't see any answers here for a permanent fix, I think America is now too far gone for that. Given that I don't advocate violence, my advice from the lower classes is as follows:
1. The best law enforcement encounter is one that never happens. Given that police are visual predators, give them nothing to see they can latch onto.
2. No excuses.....NEVER leave home without a fully charged smartphone with video abilities for proof for potential lawsuits/Internet retaliation against police brutality.
3. It helps to be on good terms with your neighbors. Let all neighbors know of any suspicious police activity ASAP. It helps if neighbors have a phone tree so this info can quickly move along.
4. Know your rights. Never resist but also never cooperate. Repeat many times - AM I being detained? Am I free to go? NEVER consent to any search, no exceptions. Do not be rude or seek to escalate or instigate, but do not cooperate.
5. NEVER trust a word an officer has to say....they lie like rugs on the floor and get away with it. Post video of officers lying online if possible for public awareness.
These are but a highlight of current thought of police/citizen relations in the 85006. And yes, America has sunk to this for many. Rob
iris lilies
7-21-16, 10:32am
Rob, your post reminds me that my yard signs will be arriving shortly. I ordered "Thank you, police" yard signs from Vistaprint earlier in the week.
Ultralight
7-21-16, 10:37am
Rob:
I am going to be honest with you, bro. And keep in mind that I am a liberal -- and I mean Lefty McLefterson Liberal.
It is not as bad as you make it out to be. There are some serious problems in this nation's police force. This nation's culture has some serious white supremacy issues. True...
But on a grand scale, the vast majority of cops are decent folk. And many, many Americans are giving up their prejudices.
Think about these things:
-On this very forum a serious conservative has quoted and aligned himself with MLK's views on judging people by the content of their character.
-Over the past 100 years in this nation we've made major progress on racial issues -- no more Jim Crow laws, no more legal segregation, interracial marriage is practically normalized at this stage, black folks can often do any kind of work they want.
-The GLBTQQI community has full, universal marriage rights in all states.
-Women still have the right to choose.
-In this country we can take video of police making arrests
-In this country we can speak out against police brutality, we can take legal action, protest, etc.
-White privilege is something we can debate -- it is part of our vocabulary.
-Blacks, the GLBTQQI folks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, and even an atheist or two have been able to seek public office and win.
Think about these things and other things like them. We're not as bad off as you may think.
Yes, we have serious social, political, economic, and cultural issues. We do... We really do. But keep some perspective.
I wish we could turn mud into marble overnight. But that is just not realistic at this juncture.
-On this very forum a serious conservative has quoted and aligned himself with MLK's views on judging people by the content of their character.
I don't know why this surprises you. It's always been liberals who categorize others by their race. It's the liberals who align themselves with the political party which created the KKK and fought tooth and nail against civil rights, and our current crop of liberals are the driving force for keeping racial division at the forefront of our culture.
You know this in your heart don't you?
gimmethesimplelife
7-21-16, 1:15pm
Rob, your post reminds me that my yard signs will be arriving shortly. I ordered "Thank you, police" yard signs from Vistaprint earlier in the week.
Seriously? I'm glad that somewhere in this country police/citizen relations are more civil. But there's an inevitable but coming......but it's not like this everywhere. Be grateful that you have this and for your sake I hope it holds. Rob
ToomuchStuff
7-21-16, 1:52pm
gimmethesimplelife:
So we should judge other "groups", by the actions of a few that are among them?
So then I should consider you a rapist, the same as a former friend who drugged another same sex friend, restrained that friend, and then when that friend awoke, tied down, was doing things to him?
Then if you believe this, please change your username to rapistgimmethesimplelife.
I ask this, being a person who has had both bad and good cops in the family? I know the problems the bad ones create for the good ones? People should be asking more for things like Internal affairs, then shooting people.
-The GLBTQQI community has full, universal marriage rights in all states.
Not...exactly. Only those into dyads.
Teacher Terry
7-21-16, 2:13pm
alan, I can't believe you are blaming the liberals. Really?
alan, I can't believe you are blaming the liberals. Really?I'm not actually blaming anyone. I'm pointing out that it's only natural that conservatives embrace MLK's dream. After all, he was a conservative too. The fact that the favored party of the liberals have been a historical detriment to race relations is just a fun bit of trivia that many with liberal educations seem to have missed in their indoctrination.
alan, I can't believe you are blaming the liberals. Really?
I was thinking it might be more accurate to say "Democrats" rather than "liberals" in reference to that party's role in perpetuating slavery, opposing women's suffrage, refusing to accept the Civil Rights Acts, etc. "Conservative" and "liberal" seem to mean different things in different times and places.
I'm not actually blaming anyone. I'm pointing out that it's only natural that conservatives embrace MLK's dream. After all, he was a conservative too. The fact that the favored party of the liberals have been a historical detriment to race relations is just a fun bit of trivia that many with liberal educations seem to have missed in their indoctrination.
I can remember a while back when certain people were anticipating widespread conservative outrage at the plan to put Harriet Tubman on the $20. Instead the general response was approval for honoring a Republican war veteran who believed in God and the Second Amendment. Replacing an obnoxious Democrat was just a bonus.
I see parts of urban America that are in decay, full of crime, lacking in employment opportunities, lacking in basic infrastructure services, lacking in good quality education and healthcare.
Which political party or parties is/are mostly-responsible for this?
Teacher Terry
7-21-16, 3:09pm
Republicans
I see parts of urban America that are in decay, full of crime, lacking in employment opportunities, lacking in basic infrastructure services, lacking in good quality education and healthcare.
Which political party or parties is/are mostly-responsible for this?
A one-word answer to that question would betray a commitment to ideology over logic.
While it's certainly demonstrable that most if not all of our most impoverished, ill-run cities have been dominated by Democrats for the past 50-100 years, they are only part of a national and world system. Just blaming insufficient spending toward any given area isn't sufficient: we spend more on public education and partially public health care per capita than most other nations for inferior outcomes. Tax policy, fiscal policy, trade policy, regulatory policy, monetary policy and public sentiment all have a role to play (both long ago and current). Anyone who claims to have a comprehensive understanding and cost-effective plan to address those problems is probably misinformed in direct proportion to his/her level of confidence.
A one-word answer to that question would betray a commitment to ideology over logic.
That's just crazy talk!
(Well said!)
Ultralight
7-21-16, 4:04pm
Not...exactly. Only those into dyads.
Very good point. I was remiss.
Ultralight
7-21-16, 4:06pm
I was thinking it might be more accurate to say "Democrats" rather than "liberals" in reference to that party's role in perpetuating slavery, opposing women's suffrage, refusing to accept the Civil Rights Acts, etc. "Conservative" and "liberal" seem to mean different things in different times and places.
The parties have changed a lot.
But I am not a Democrat. I am a leftist (on most issues).
iris lilies
7-21-16, 5:24pm
Republicans
And yet, my city with its high crime, low educational rate, and decaying blocks that look like WW2 era Berlin is entirely governed by Democrats.
I've heard tell of one lone Republican alderman in a far south city Ward, but I do not know if that is an urban legend or not.
It was in this Democratic city that I learned to be a Republican.
Ultralight
7-21-16, 5:28pm
...crazy talk...
Ableist slur.
Ultralight
7-21-16, 5:30pm
And yet, my city with its high crime, low educational rate, and decaying blocks that look like WW2 era Berlin is entirely governed by Democrats.
I've heard tell of one lone Republican alderman in a far south city Ward, but I do not know if that is an urban legend or not.
It was in this Democratic city that I learned to be a Republican.
Republican run cities are universally amaze-balls!
I was asking for data, not anecdote. Given the size of the USA, I can find an anecdote to support almost any claim, which is why I like to look a bit deeper....
?
It's a non-fiction book almost 500 pages with facts and references.
I'm not actually blaming anyone. I'm pointing out that it's only natural that conservatives embrace MLK's dream. After all, he was a conservative too. The fact that the favored party of the liberals have been a historical detriment to race relations is just a fun bit of trivia that many with liberal educations seem to have missed in their indoctrination.
I think this is referring to the Dixiecrats. Of course, those Southern Dems all eventually became red-state Republicans. But I guess having to reach back 45 years to blame an entire party can be classified as historical trivia.
Ultralight
7-22-16, 7:05am
I think this is referring to the Dixiecrats. Of course, those Southern Dems all eventually became red-state Republicans. But I guess having to reach back 45 years to blame an entire party can be classified as historical trivia.
It is almost like Alan was rewriting history for his own gain.
I think this is referring to the Dixiecrats. Of course, those Southern Dems all eventually became red-state Republicans. But I guess having to reach back 45 years to blame an entire party can be classified as historical trivia.
It is almost like Alan was rewriting history for his own gain.
Your could probably both benefit from this: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/300432/party-civil-rights-kevin-d-williamson
One of my favorite parts: "The mythmakers would have you believe that it was the opposite: that your white-hooded hillbilly trailer-dwelling tornado-bait voters jumped ship because LBJ signed a civil-rights bill (passed on the strength of disproportionately Republican support in Congress). The facts suggest otherwise."
Ultralight
7-22-16, 9:00am
Alan likes his "history" to mirror and/or validate his views.
This is called confirmation bias.
Your could probably both benefit from this: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/300432/party-civil-rights-kevin-d-williamson
One of my favorite parts: "The mythmakers would have you believe that it was the opposite: that your white-hooded hillbilly trailer-dwelling tornado-bait voters jumped ship because LBJ signed a civil-rights bill (passed on the strength of disproportionately Republican support in Congress). The facts suggest otherwise."
I have often thought that the Democrats eagerness to associate themselves with the civil rights movement was reminiscent of all those Frenchman who claimed to be part of the Resistance after the war.
Alan likes his "history" to mirror and/or validate his views.
This is called confirmation bias.Your tendency to challenge/question/talk shit without research/opinion/sources to back yourself up is called trolling.
(And your choice to direct your trolling at me is called stupid, when I place someone on ignore it's board wide and final.;))
Ultralight
7-22-16, 10:29am
Almost another one?
Video: Austin police body-slam black teacher, tell her blacks have ‘violent tendencies’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/22/video-austin-police-body-slam-black-teacher-tell-her-blacks-have-violent-tendencies/
iris lilies
7-22-16, 12:22pm
Almost another one?
Video: Austin police body-slam black teacher, tell her blacks have ‘violent tendencies’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/22/video-austin-police-body-slam-black-teacher-tell-her-blacks-have-violent-tendencies/
This is an interesting video. on first viewing, I dont think the cop was terribly out of line, but then, I don't know their training and what they are supposed to do in those situations.
The woman chose several times to resist doing what the cop asked her to do. Multiple resistances. He is calm but commanding throughout.
It is always shocking to see people engaging in physical altercations, and when it is a small woman and a big man, that is doubly shocking. But he did not hit her and said several times that he did not want to hit her.
Him engaging with her in conversation about race issues was stupid. Regardless of the situation, it is no win, it is pointless.
Ultralight
7-22-16, 12:27pm
Him engaging with her in conversation about race issues was stupid. Regardless of the situation, it is no win, it is pointless.
No, it exposed some prejudices that need to have some light on them.
This is an interesting video. on first viewing, I dont think the cop was terribly out of line, but then, I don't know their training and what they are supposed to do in those situations.
The woman chose several times to resist doing what the cop asked her to do. Multiple resistances. He is calm but commanding throughout.
It is always shocking to see people engaging in physical altercations, and when it is a small woman and a big man, that is doubly shocking. But he did not hit her and said several times that he did not want to hit her.
Him engaging with her in conversation about race issues was stupid. Regardless of the situation, it is no win, it is pointless.
The one that really bothers me is the unarmed aide for the austistic man who completely complied, lying on the ground with his arms up, and was shot anyway - the police chief's explanation is that this swat team member actually shot 3 times at the nonthreatening autistic person holding a toy truck and struck the aide once instead. The police officer's immediate response to why he shot was "I don't know." I this hope never happens to my son.
Ultralight
7-22-16, 12:50pm
The one that really bothers me is the unarmed aide for the austistic man who completely complied, lying on the ground with his arms up...
Wait, that is not "resisting?"
iris lilies
7-22-16, 1:13pm
The one that really bothers me is the unarmed aide for the austistic man who completely complied, lying on the ground with his arms up, and was shot anyway - the police chief's explanation is that this swat team member actually shot 3 times at the nonthreatening autistic person holding a toy truck and struck the aide once instead. The police officer's immediate response to why he shot was "I don't know." I this hope never happens to my son.
Agreed, this one is harder to explain from the police side, given my usual cursory view. It is impossible to know from this video the perceived threat to the immediate community from these two men.
I did like how the newscaster outed the shooter LEO as a "white hispanic" officer. Is that now the journalistic standard? I mean, white hispanics? Are there black hispanics? Brown Hispanics? Hispanics of color?
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