Log in

View Full Version : Class in America: social vs. economic



bae
7-23-16, 5:13pm
Hit-and-run for now, as SL seems to be uber slow this afternoon:

A thoughtful article I just came across about social vs. economic class, and problems related to discussing class issues:

http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html?format=light

Lainey
7-23-16, 9:59pm
Hit-and-run for now, as SL seems to be uber slow this afternoon:

A thoughtful article I just came across about social vs. economic class, and problems related to discussing class issues:

http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html?format=light

Very good essay, lots of truth in it. Thanks for posting.
A related note: years ago I was at a business dinner and happened to be seated at the same small table as our host - an educated and very wealthy business owner. He didn't have to, but he paid very kind attention to myself and another administrator just as if we were long-time friends. Just a real example of graciousness in every way. I left that dinner thinking, "now that's class."

Chicken lady
7-24-16, 8:57am
A lot of thought there!

my brain wants to apply this to every area in my life now

- the relationship between my heart daughter (who was broke and homeless as a child but basically raised by her teachers and coaches) and her partner (who was blue collar with money) and who both are lower economic class and look to us "professional class" for guidance - and their car buying experience - heart daughter was proud that she could buy a car. We were proud of her for doing careful research and buying a reliable car in good shape that she could pay cash for, her partner's parents were appalled that they chose to drive a "trashy used car" instead of taking out a loan and buying a fancy new car.

the partner actually sees this stuff and came to dh to say "I want to advance, teach me how to act."

- my friendships as a kid, which were mostly a class or two below me as I saw the kids of my class as "phony and mean" and yet, I was always something of an outsider because I talked fancy, was bad at sports, had no "life skills", little religion, and too much interest in books and not enough in clothes. There was always a tension that in retrospect seems like my friends weren't sure I wasn't looking down on them, while at the same time pitying me for my "social lacks". Sometimes they tried to help me learn their norms. Some of their parents may have encouraged the friendships because they saw value in the social opportunities I offered their kids.

I think my boyfriend's mother adored me in part because she wanted her son to go to college (her husband never finished high school) and knew I wasn't going to get pregnant and "ruin his life" or object to him "going off and leaving me" - of course we would go to college! Also, I looked up to her because she could do anything!

Then my my heart broke when we reached adulthood and few of my friends "escaped" the path set for them by their cultural norms.

i've learned a lot too in the 4h and homeschooling communities - which tend to have their own primary cultures but draw from a wider range of American social cultures.

jp1
7-24-16, 9:45am
The class ladders article linked in bae's article struck me as a spot on description of society and probably a pretty good analysis of where society is in a bigger picture kind of way. I also found it interesting because it provided a pretty logical explanation for why I am now a middle aged, mid-level insurance underwrite in the G3 class.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151006183427/https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-3-ladder-system-of-social-class-in-the-u-s/

Zoe Girl
7-24-16, 10:09am
A very good article, it is something I deal with in the school I work in since the neighborhood is being gentrified and our school district really wants to improve graduation rates and other success markers in our students who do not have advantages. And so I see the small things that are part of class add up to the big things. I have so much to say, but will stick with one thing that is frustrating and sensitive and all around too awkward.

In my department we have been working for years to improve the image of out of school time programs (OST) that include child care and enrichment clubs and community programs. We also live in a city and so many of our staff are graduates from our own school district, have lived in the city for generations, it has a small town feel. I came into this department and moved up one level very quickly, then got frustrated. A huge part of it is class markers. I grew up in several places but got most of my education as a child in Michigan, was taught certain ways to speak and dress, was around college focused families, then went to college where despite my counter culture choices I still could switch over and pull on my background. Actually a lot of my punk friends were the same, we went on to get advanced degrees in professional fields. When I came into my work I expected that to be recognized since we are in education. Well in our department the supervisor level above me has 7 people and the language is a big marker of the class of these supervisors. I hate the phrase 'I seen' used where it should be 'I saw'. And to have that and the word a'int used by people who supervise me and are my work peers makes me cringe. I had a really bad year and a bad review awhile ago so I figured my chances of advancement were done, but still the cringe is there. We are trying hard to make our work look more professional and yet we have not addressed this sensitive issue very much. I don't really want to address it but I see that it very much affects how people perceive our work when we interact with the public. I do think one of my supervisors has been coached, her dress is more appropriate and professional over time. Not as much low cut and high heels, makeup and hair more subdued.

I have a mentor now who is in the upper management, in that group I hear better language and see more professional overall demeanor and dress. She has hinted at how our department could be more professional. I have a glimmer of hope for advancement. I go back and forth between talking to people at work the way that I think would go over best and using a more educated vocabulary that I am comfortable with. I have found that the more educated vocabulary has not been understood well, it seems more like I come across as arrogant when I am trying to be accurate. So simply put why would people recognize and promote me if they don't understand that we will all look more professional by our language? When we go out and interact with other programs at conventions we need to have this professional appearance after all.

I have wondered for years how our district can coach talented people to speak better. Speech patterns are deeply cultural and personal and so I back off due to sensitivity for others. I think that is even more sensitive than coaching someone to dress more professionally.

creaker
7-24-16, 10:49am
good article - besides the information it presents, it just made me think how complicated things are. This was just comparing 2 spectrums, but there are so many more in play.

razz
7-24-16, 10:55am
Interesting thread. What I have found is that my professional demeanour can be made class-friendly by my getting down and doing whatever job is required and helping whenever. I do speak proper English but when I hear myself occasionally use the wrong tense in speech, I stop myself and laugh at myself saying, "Whoops, I blew that one didn't I?" and correct myself. Others usually laugh with me.
I took a Linguistics course from Great Courses and found that language has changed tremendously over the centuries. I relaxed about the mispronunciation and tense variations in speech of others. It has been going on forever.

jp1
7-24-16, 11:27am
It's interesting to think about the social class I grew up in, compared to my parents. Both grew up poor and working class during the depression. My father, especially, was from a very working class household. Grandpa, although quite intelligent, only had about a fifth grade education and was always working a hard labor job, such as in a foundry and eventually purchasing a farm where he spent the remainder of his working and retired life. Dad had no idea that there was a different world out there until he got drafted during the Korean war. While in the army he met guys from a variety of social classes including a few from educated upper class families in the northeast who encouraged him to go to college after the army, which he did using the GI bill and became an accountant. Believing this lifestyle to be much preferable to the life of either of their childhoods, my parents strongly encouraged both my sister and me to go to college and get white collar jobs. And that's exactly what we did.

Teacher Terry
7-24-16, 11:30am
Interesting article.

LDAHL
7-24-16, 1:24pm
I wonder what it is that compels people to construct these elaborate economic and cultural class taxonomies. With so many variables of dialect, professional identity, the artifacts we surround ourselves with, our sartorial, culinary and architectural preferences, why do we insist on creating these various categories? I’m not saying it isn’t real or not a common practice. I’ve seen military spouses trying to lord it over one another based on SO’s rank. Any gathering of academics I’ve ever attended has struck me as a ruthless struggle to establish one’s place in an invisible (at least to me) hierarchy.

My impression is that a lot of this is driven by status anxiety. People who engage in drawing class distinctions seem intent on claiming membership in the creative or professional or educated or meritocratic class. Otherwise they’re interested in letting you know about their ascension from one class to another. If we are in competion for status or perhaps the privilege that comes with it, there is something to be said for trying to posit a scoring system that favors you.

Look, for instance at the almost panicked outrage that followed the Brexit vote. How much of that was a self-regarding managerial/governing/technocratic class’s extreme discomfort with having it’s authority repudiated by people they viewed as their class inferiors? How much of the Trump or Sanders phenomena were the result of populations who resented that same class assumption of superiority and entitlement?

To me, one of the best insights of YMOYL was the importance of disregarding, at least in it’s material aspects, class norms or comparisons. What I think Dr. Johnson referred to as a sublime contempt for the opinion of others. Perhaps the best unit of comparison is one soul at a time.

iris lilies
7-24-16, 1:41pm
I have been watching my dog this week claim space, bones, and mom's attention to maintain his status. He is s uncomfortable with two female bulldogs we are fostering. They challange his idea of who he is, the Lord of the Manor.
Dogs are into status markers. if you have all of the bones, you are king.

Chicken lady
7-24-16, 1:54pm
LDAHL one thing I have learned is that it is a priveledge of class to ignore or deny it's importance. It is much easier to "fit in anywhere" if you start at the top.

LDAHL
7-24-16, 1:59pm
I have been watching my dog this week claim space, bones, and mom's attention to maintain his status. He is s uncomfortable with two female bulldogs we are fostering. They challange his idea of who he is, the Lord of the Manor.
Dogs are into status markers. if you have all of the bones, you are king.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510AGEQ99ZL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

The most bones, the most beauteous trophy wife, the most discriminating taste in balsamic vinegar, the most designer-label degrees, the highest level of ascended spirituality, artistic understanding or any other virtue you wish to name or invent. We can't seem to resist marking our territory.

LDAHL
7-24-16, 2:05pm
LDAHL one thing I have learned is that it is a priveledge of class to ignore or deny it's importance. It is much easier to "fit in anywhere" if you start at the top.

I think that's true, a fish probably doesn't think much about being wet. But I also think there are as many class hierarchies as there are versions of class consciousness. I'm not sure a Brooklyn hipster is competing in the same contest for status as a fighter pilot, a kindergarten teacher, an investment banker or a performance artist.

ApatheticNoMore
7-24-16, 2:08pm
status anxiety = fear of being homeless etc.. Yea then it's a very real phenomena of course, even if far less people will ever be homeless than lose sleep at night worrying about it.

pinkytoe
7-24-16, 2:25pm
To me, one of the best insights of YMOYL was the importance of disregarding, at least in it’s material aspects, class norms or comparisons.
Yes!!
Perhaps in its most elemental form, humans seeking status of whatever kind is about fear of surviving or not. Finding your tribe so that you feel you belong somewhere and many time feeling superior too because that gives one the illusion of being at the top of the heap. Having lived six decades now, I can recall a time when it felt like there was a lot less of this income and class categorizing going on than there is now. You had a few rich people (who kept it very low key where I grew up), some poor, but mostly folks in the middle both socially and economically.

ApatheticNoMore
7-24-16, 2:38pm
The smart thing if one was into winning the game (maybe one is just into getting rid of the game entirely, but that's a different thing - then one is an activist and not a social climber) is to see what class norms actually matter. If you are not going to get the job because of how you dress or any other aspect of your lifestyle than maybe that class norm MATTERS and isn't a class norm you can so nonchalantly ignore unless you have a lot of other markers that assure your class status and maybe you have very few ... if one was playing the game to win it, which I don't judge one way or other (except where truly unethical behavior is involved). It might go something like ignore the class markers that aren't easily seen (maybe not many see inside your house - so all your furniture is from the alley - ok ...), fully conform with those that will be seen, if one is trying to be a certain class.

Zoe Girl
7-24-16, 6:10pm
The smart thing if one was into winning the game (maybe one is just into getting rid of the game entirely, but that's a different thing - then one is an activist and not a social climber) is to see what class norms actually matter. If you are not going to get the job because of how you dress or any other aspect of your lifestyle than maybe that class norm MATTERS and isn't a class norm you can so nonchalantly ignore unless you have a lot of other markers that assure your class status and maybe you have very few ...

I like this, I wanted to do many things with how I look. I got some tattoos, got my nose pierced, played around with the idea of hair color. Then I realized I didn't have as much social status as I once did. I was a divorced mom of 3. It seemed only married men wanted to sleep with me, not date. Most of my well-meaning friends drifted off into more comfortable relationships with other couples. My kids were called baggage, my family broken, myself damaged goods (yeah to my face). There was no social system to help me get a job anymore. I just didn't have friends who were in positions to help anymore. There was this recession and even people who used to have that type of life rarely did.

So I started to think I didn't want that. I had more to offer. And choosing clothes and other ways of appearance may actually matter. So I shifted, got a got in an urban school district, crawled my way up to a living wage, realized that the network of people seemed to mean more than blind resumes at some level of employment. I have my social markers still, I know how to dress well, I buy professional clothes even if I am at goodwill, I can speak well, present myself in front of a group, interact with many people at various social levels because I have had some experience with them. This way I get to influence things that matter to me, dressing like a punk-a** kid wasn't doing it. I struggle with playing a game (mostly now because it has been such slow progress) and sometimes just that I have this background that others don't. But if the game is how I make social influence then it is worth it.

catherine
7-24-16, 11:45pm
I wonder what it is that compels people to construct these elaborate economic and cultural class taxonomies. With so many variables of dialect, professional identity, the artifacts we surround ourselves with, our sartorial, culinary and architectural preferences, why do we insist on creating these various categories? I’m not saying it isn’t real or not a common practice. I’ve seen military spouses trying to lord it over one another based on SO’s rank. Any gathering of academics I’ve ever attended has struck me as a ruthless struggle to establish one’s place in an invisible (at least to me) hierarchy.

My impression is that a lot of this is driven by status anxiety. People who engage in drawing class distinctions seem intent on claiming membership in the creative or professional or educated or meritocratic class. Otherwise they’re interested in letting you know about their ascension from one class to another. If we are in competion for status or perhaps the privilege that comes with it, there is something to be said for trying to posit a scoring system that favors you.


Well, if what you say is true, we might as well just throw out sociology studies across all the colleges in the country, because looking at these nuances in culture and economics is a science and the nuances are real. Someone else might not understand what the heck art history has to do with anything, too, but that doesn't mean it's bogus. You might be right if you called "Knitting in Florida" a bogus academic pursuit, but not sociology. I think it's fascinating, and I found this article really interesting, and my interest has no connection with status anxiety, because I'm too old to indulge in that. The last time I was looking to climb any ladders was when my husband made me go up one to clip the top of the hedges because he's afraid of heights. As for me, on neutral on whatever rung I'm on at the moment.

ToomuchStuff
7-25-16, 1:03am
*** when are you going to start offering some actual reasons for posting these links? Including some copied details from the article to make your case. I am not going to give my email address to (whoever) to read an article about (whatever).

Not to be unkind but I am getting to the point of simply ignoring your posts and new threads because they are so sensational with no opinion or comment from you to justify including them. I think that this is what some are calling clickbait however that is spelled.

I am simply making these comments to let you know. What you take from them is up to you.


Ayup.

Another hit-and-run post...


Should we replace the *** with bae?>8);):laff: (mixed emotions, if you can't tell from the smiley's)

Wondering if you have been studying Clickbait with a group!?.

bae
7-25-16, 2:59am
Should we replace the *** with bae?>8);):laff: (mixed emotions, if you can't tell from the smiley's)

Wondering if you have been studying Clickbait with a group!?.

My internet has been completely hosed this weekend. Feel free to put me on ignore if this helps you, if my past 17 years of participation on these forums has been inadequate to disclose my intentions...

razz
7-25-16, 5:49am
Nope to the *** for Bae. I tried getting these forums at that time as well and they were having problems so when Bae said that he was keeping the info with the link short due to the the slow forums, he prepared us.
I know that you were just being smart-alecky, TMS, as Bae usually adds clear succinct comments or a picture worth a thousand words.

herbgeek
7-25-16, 6:10am
I know that you were just being smart-alecky, TMS, as Bae usually adds clear succinct comments or a picture worth a thousand words.

Yeah, I just thought TMS was tweaking Bae by comparing him to another well known hit and runner. >8) (particularly the part about studying with a group LOL)

LDAHL
7-25-16, 9:46am
Well, if what you say is true, we might as well just throw out sociology studies across all the colleges in the country, because looking at these nuances in culture and economics is a science and the nuances are real. Someone else might not understand what the heck art history has to do with anything, too, but that doesn't mean it's bogus. You might be right if you called "Knitting in Florida" a bogus academic pursuit, but not sociology. I think it's fascinating, and I found this article really interesting, and my interest has no connection with status anxiety, because I'm too old to indulge in that. The last time I was looking to climb any ladders was when my husband made me go up one to clip the top of the hedges because he's afraid of heights. As for me, on neutral on whatever rung I'm on at the moment.

Science? They're just a couple of blog posts people concocted without any data or testing of hypotheses. How much science there is in "social science" may be the subject of another discussion.

I do find it interesting that whenever people discuss this sort of thing so many have to let us know that they themselves are above this kind of thing and only need to deal with it in terms of less self-aware peoples' perceptions.

iris lilies
7-25-16, 10:16am
The class ladders article linked in bae's article struck me as a spot on description of society and probably a pretty good analysis of where society is in a bigger picture kind of way. I also found it interesting because it provided a pretty logical explanation for why I am now a middle aged, mid-level insurance underwrite in the G3 class.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151006183427/https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-3-ladder-system-of-social-class-in-the-u-s/I am also solidly in the G3 strata and I like it there. Many advantages, not sure of any disadvantages.

ToomuchStuff
7-25-16, 10:40am
Yeah, I just thought TMS was tweaking Bae by comparing him to another well known hit and runner. >8) (particularly the part about studying with a group LOL)

Bingo. I expected him to come back and comment as he said "for now".
The mixed emotions part, comes because I wonder at what point do we say, one shouldn't do what they just have spent some recent posts, telling others not to do. (I think that is a fair question/consideration)

Chicken lady
7-25-16, 11:26am
I think I'm more socially oblivious than un-class conscious. I find the concept fascinating because it offers me a different lens for examining behavior. I tend to do a lot of examining and attempting to understand other people's behavior because my personal lens seems to have severe astigmatism - I push button a in response to stimulus a and expect response a. Then someone who knows me well enough to try to help me informs me that for anyone else that was stimulus b and therefor I got response c.

last week I stood on top of my car in a parking lot and waved my arms so someone could find me. Three people informed me that this was eccentric behavior and one of them told me the arm waving was really not needed.

iris lilies
7-25-16, 11:47am
I think I'm more socially oblivious than un-class conscious. I find the concept fascinating because it offers me a different lens for examining behavior. I tend to do a lot of examining and attempting to understand other people's behavior because my personal lens seems to have severe astigmatism - I push button a in response to stimulus a and expect response a. Then someone who knows me well enough to try to help me informs me that for anyone else that was stimulus b and therefor I got response c.

last week I stood on top of my car in a parking lot and waved my arms so someone could find me. Three people informed me that this was eccentric behavior and one of them told me the arm waving was really not needed.

OMG, sometimes you are so funny! This was hilarious! Thanks for LOL's this morning.

iris lilies
7-25-16, 12:03pm
I like this, I wanted to do many things with how I look. I got some tattoos, got my nose pierced, played around with the idea of hair color. Then I realized I didn't have as much social status as I once did. I was a divorced mom of 3. It seemed only married men wanted to sleep with me, not date. Most of my well-meaning friends drifted off into more comfortable relationships with other couples. My kids were called baggage, my family broken, myself damaged goods (yeah to my face). There was no social system to help me get a job anymore. I just didn't have friends who were in positions to help anymore. There was this recession and even people who used to have that type of life rarely did.

So I started to think I didn't want that. I had more to offer. And choosing clothes and other ways of appearance may actually matter. So I shifted, got a got in an urban school district, crawled my way up to a living wage, realized that the network of people seemed to mean more than blind resumes at some level of employment. I have my social markers still, I know how to dress well, I buy professional clothes even if I am at goodwill, I can speak well, present myself in front of a group, interact with many people at various social levels because I have had some experience with them. This way I get to influence things that matter to me, dressing like a punk-a** kid wasn't doing it. I struggle with playing a game (mostly now because it has been such slow progress) and sometimes just that I have this background that others don't. But if the game is how I make social influence then it is worth it.
That is an interestng point, and one thats been touched on in this thread: that actual lower status people do not have the freedom to experiment with appearance if they wish to be taken seriously by the middle class. You ( the generic you) had better be solidly middle class or better yet, upper middle to have outsider body ornaments.

I worked in an urban core public library where upper class scholars and homeless hung out. There was one woman who came in regularly who dressed in layers, in colors that usually went well together. She had odd, interesting hats. She always hung out in the Fine arts department. I had to ask the librarian in that dept if she was of the homeless variety or of the artsy scholar variety of library user. Turns out she was of the mentally unstable/homeless variety, but tit was hard to tell.

Chicken lady
7-25-16, 12:14pm
I don't actually know why that is funny.

i'm definitely one of those questionable library patrons. A lot of people I knew in college thought I did a lot of drugs. I did not.

iris lilies
7-25-16, 12:22pm
I don't actually know why that is funny.

i'm definitely one of those questionable library patrons. A lot of people I knew in college thought I did a lot of drugs. I did not.
It is funny/interesting as in "people do unexpected, creative, brave things to solve problems."

I also think my foster dog here is excellent at solving problems and
I find her funny and entertaining. She provides me with the unexpected.

Gregg
7-25-16, 2:01pm
I think Zoe Girl hit a nail by pointing out the ability of the upper classes to go slumming, should they choose, where the lower classes have no opportunity to walk a mile in Prada loafers. I also think YMOYL missed some of the what a class association can mean as someone shifts down. Over the past several years we've dropped several rungs on the income side and had a slightly less dramatic drop in areas such as our neighborhood and our automobiles. Fortunately we were able to do that voluntarily, but we have some friends from our more lavish days that seem to pity us and some that have simply drifted away because our lifestyles no longer mesh. Our decision to shift in this direction was almost exclusively economic and nothing everyone here doesn't understand. At the same time it has been a challenge to find people in our new demographic that share some of the interests that were common in our previous state of being (and that we wanted to continue enjoying). It is an entirely different experience to move "down" a level than it is when you are moving up into the same level.

razz
7-25-16, 2:17pm
I don't doubt that some feel compelled to maintain a lifestyles beyond their means rather than lose the circle of the familiar friends. It is quite sad to see happen as cost in the longterm is quite high for the present benefit.

I empathize on the challenge of building a new community as you shift outside the familiar. Excellent points!

I found that it is also quite a challenge to shift from couple-based living to single widowhood living but my old friends have helped a lot. I hadn't thought about the similarity to a change in economic-based circles. What has helped the transition the most so far, Gregg?



I think Zoe Girl hit a nail by pointing out the ability of the upper classes to go slumming, should they choose, where the lower classes have no opportunity to walk a mile in Prada loafers. I also think YMOYL missed some of the what a class association can mean as someone shifts down. Over the past several years we've dropped several rungs on the income side and had a slightly less dramatic drop in areas such as our neighborhood and our automobiles. Fortunately we were able to do that voluntarily, but we have some friends from our more lavish days that seem to pity us and some that have simply drifted away because our lifestyles no longer mesh. Our decision to shift in this direction was almost exclusively economic and nothing everyone here doesn't understand. At the same time it has been a challenge to find people in our new demographic that share some of the interests that were common in our previous state of being (and that we wanted to continue enjoying). It is an entirely different experience to move "down" a level than it is when you are moving up into the same level.

ApatheticNoMore
7-25-16, 3:10pm
If you are going bankrupt keeping up with the Jonses then clearly it's not working. On the other hand spending a little more sometimes, *if* one can afford it, to hang out with the Jonses might pay off more than not. Who knows the Jonses might have a good idea for if you actually find yourself unemployed or looking for a better job etc.. I am assuming one actually likes the Jonses. Do I take my own advice? Meh, I'm most at home with bohemians and utopians and so on, so of course not :~). At best such people might let you sleep on their couch??? Solidarity!!! :laff:

But this whole people's social circles are disposable thinking is doubtful. Even though there may be times one has no choice but to toss it all to save themselves. So yes it's sometimes the way the world is, but not much how it should be.

Teacher Terry
7-25-16, 3:55pm
Gregg, did you lose some of your friends because you no longer wanted to do some expensive stuff they wanted to or did it happen strictly because you made a change in homes/cars, etc? If it's for the second reason it seems weird to me because I have friends that live in much fancier homes then we do and friends that live in small apartments and I could care less.

iris lilies
7-25-16, 4:14pm
If we are measuring our friends by size of house, most everyone, well 3/4 of them, have grander houses than ours.

but we are all united in loving
Victorian architecture. I treasure my experiences at their homes because I get to enjoy 140 year old houses that are loved and cared for. I am not jealous. If I eanted to buy one od those, I could do it, with cash.

Teacher Terry
7-25-16, 5:28pm
IL: like you at this age I care about the quality of my friends and not their possessions. Actually that is all I ever cared about at any age:~). It is fun to visit other people's homes and get to enjoy them.

IshbelRobertson
7-25-16, 5:36pm
WOW,

And some of my American friends sneer at the UK's class system...!

Gregg
7-26-16, 9:50am
We haven't truly *lost* any close friends as we downshifted. There are some that we see far less often than in the past just because we don't tend to end up in the same place as often as we used to. An example would be things like charity events. When we were both working full time +++ it made more sense to make a donation to causes that were meaningful to us and that usually came along with some kind of fundraising event. Now that we have more time and less income it makes more sense to volunteer so we skip the silent auctions in favor of being more hands on throughout the year. Not better or worse, just different, but the part of our social lives that revolved around those events has diminished.

The acquaintances that we've lost contact with because of our downshift are primarily people who are still working very hard to be upwardly mobile. I'm sure there are some that don't understand how we could give up the trappings we used to put on display. In this market a McMansion with a Lexus in the drive are still the top way to let the world know you've arrived. We all know the fallacy, but it doesn't change the reality of the market. Some of our best friends just sold the house they had been in for 22 years, raising two kids and countless pets. They are building a new house that is all on one level so we guessed it would be smaller. Its not. Its huge. They make plenty of money so won't be crimped by supporting such a house, but DW is convinced that they felt the need to keep up the image.

We were lucky to have been able to live in accordance with the rules of our tribe without having to strain the finances, we just finally decided that it was time to make a little different statement. DW is pretty comfortable with whatever group we are with, but its a little harder for me. I'm not concerned with the social status so much, but the conversations are different. In the old group the future of the SCOTUS is a pretty hotly debated topic. In the new group, and with the qualifier of talking to people roughly our age, KC Royals baseball and Nebraska football tend to come up at every turn. I like going to a game or watching it while its being played, but the truth is I don't really give a $*** about studying the American distractions. Er, I mean pastimes. When we switched to a smaller house we naturally ended up in a neighborhood with lower average incomes and that typically includes somewhat less exposure to new ideas (whether through education, travel or whatever). Fortunately we are in a very desirable part of town. I don't hope for full gentrification, but the young techies are moving in. Its the younger set that I'm hoping will save me from being bored to death by the sports talk of the neighbors our age.

Chicken lady
7-26-16, 10:19am
Gregg, that is a perfect example of of social vs. Economic class - many of the signifiers of your original social class (the ones not tied to economic display) are still important to you, while you are comfortable in the financial resources of your new economic class, but find the social signifiers less of a fit.

ApatheticNoMore
7-26-16, 11:34am
In the old group the future of the SCOTUS is a pretty hotly debated topic. In the new group, and with the qualifier of talking to people roughly our age, KC Royals baseball and Nebraska football tend to come up at every turn. I like going to a game or watching it while its being played, but the truth is I don't really give a $*** about studying the American distractions.

the two groups just prefer studying different American distractions :)

Teacher Terry
7-26-16, 5:24pm
Greg: we tend to keep our friends no matter where we live. We have casual talk with neighbors but they are not our friends. Why not invite people over for dinner or go out with them for dinner, etc to maintain the contact? If they really are your friends they won't mind where you live.

Gardenarian
7-26-16, 11:45pm
I'm not surprised the author is from Boston; I think it is the most class conscious of all U.S. cities. I'm still trying to shake off the snobbery I picked up after living there for 20 years.

At every class level there is not only a racial divide, but a political divide. I'd love to read more about that.

She lost some cred with "My parents enlisted my sister and I..."

Gregg
7-27-16, 10:21am
Gregg, that is a perfect example of of social vs. Economic class - many of the signifiers of your original social class (the ones not tied to economic display) are still important to you, while you are comfortable in the financial resources of your new economic class, but find the social signifiers less of a fit.

Exactly correct Chicken Lady. +1

Gregg
7-27-16, 10:28am
Greg: we tend to keep our friends no matter where we live. We have casual talk with neighbors but they are not our friends. Why not invite people over for dinner or go out with them for dinner, etc to maintain the contact? If they really are your friends they won't mind where you live.

Maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining the friendship part. Nothing has changed with the people who are good friends, the ones you call to help move the body. It is the casual acquaintances that have drifted south. We still see them, just not as often, and to a very large degree I that doesn't bother me. It's just an interesting observation about how social and economic factors are intertwined. What I'm trying to adjust to (as Chicken Lady said above) is the social identifiers of the new tribe.

Gregg
7-27-16, 10:29am
the two groups just prefer studying different American distractions :)

True that.

Teacher Terry
7-27-16, 3:54pm
Gregg: now I understand and that makes perfect sense. did you both retire after downsizing or is that something you are still working on? WE moved to a smaller house in town because I wanted to be close to things and have less to clean. Interesting enough we lived in the burbs before but now our neighborhood during the past 4 years is becoming very hot and desirable we have been told by more then 1 realtor. Many younger people are moving in as well as retirees and the prices are really going up. MOst of the homes were built in the 1950's. It is funny how things change.

pinkytoe
7-27-16, 10:14pm
Boston; I think it is the most class conscious of all U.S. cities.
My last boss moved here from Boston and never stopped displaying his superiority. I don't believe I've ever met anyone so convinced of his superiority.
He eventually moved back so his kids could rejoin the quest for superiority by attending some private school and eventually his alma mater, Harvard.

creaker
7-28-16, 8:23am
My last boss moved here from Boston and never stopped displaying his superiority. I don't believe I've ever met anyone so convinced of his superiority.
He eventually moved back so his kids could rejoin the quest for superiority by attending some private school and eventually his alma mater, Harvard.

Just a little juxtaposition - I am currently sitting in my underwear working in my little ticky-tacky 1950's still-a-fixer-upper house in Boston, looking forward to getting off oncall and going to volunteer in a soup kitchen tomorrow. I like my wages and the work I do, but I don't really mesh with the lifestyles of the people I work with (I think my social class falls under "other"). But there are a lot people here not like your last boss.

My middle daughter is going back to finish her degree (yay!), she got accepted and will be attending Harvard extension program. But just for the degree, not the superiority :-)

Alan
7-28-16, 8:38am
I'm not surprised the author is from Boston; I think it is the most class conscious of all U.S. cities. I'm still trying to shake off the snobbery I picked up after living there for 20 years.

At every class level there is not only a racial divide, but a political divide. I'd love to read more about that.

She lost some cred with "My parents enlisted my sister and I..."
My company's corporate headquarters is in Boston. Our location has daily visitors from Boston/Cambridge/Waltham areas. They all seem to be nice people although most of them talk funny.

LDAHL
7-28-16, 8:46am
My last boss moved here from Boston and never stopped displaying his superiority. I don't believe I've ever met anyone so convinced of his superiority.
He eventually moved back so his kids could rejoin the quest for superiority by attending some private school and eventually his alma mater, Harvard.

In a country with no formal titles of nobility, many seekers of status look to pseudo-meritocractic signals of superiority. The degree from a "highly selective" institution (even to the pre-school level). The endless array of awards pop singers and actors compete for. Buying one's way into the board of directors of some well-regarded institution.

Sometimes I wish John Adams hadn't lost the argument over the Title of Nobility Clause to the Constitution. It might have provided a harmless outlet for status seekers who would otherwise inject themselves into other arenas.

Ultralight
7-28-16, 8:51am
In a country with no formal titles of nobility, many seekers of status look to pseudo-meritocractic signals of superiority.

Give the Clinton family another ten years...

LDAHL
7-28-16, 8:58am
My company's corporate headquarters is in Boston. Our location has daily visitors from Boston/Cambridge/Waltham areas. They all seem to be nice people although most of them talk funny.

When I was stationed in Bedford, I had to fire an intern from Harvard. She wouldn't make copies. Just couldn't bring herself to do it.

Got a graduate degree at Bentley in Waltham. Nice school. I generally liked Boston people, but I'll tell you one thing: they were Hell on wheels. I knew fighter pilots who didn't like driving there. One guy I knew who'd been absolutely everywhere told me the only city he'd ever seen with worse drivers was Rome.

Lainey
7-28-16, 7:56pm
It's funny, I have Ivy League grads in 2 generations of my family. They never bring it up unless it's directly discussed. And almost all of those situations involve someone else mentioning in a business setting that they should all defer to one of their colleagues because "they have a degree from U. of [Ivy League] school." Then my relatives get to say, "So do I." Then the first person gets that expression of "dull surprise" on their face, as the songwriter so aptly put it.
Guess my relatives don't have the stereotypical Ivy League attitude or appearance.

iris lilies
7-28-16, 8:19pm
It's funny, I have Ivy League grads in 2 generations of my family. They never bring it up unless it's directly discussed. And almost all of those situations involve someone else mentioning in a business setting that they should all defer to one of their colleagues because "they have a degree from U. of [Ivy League] school." Then my relatives get to say, "So do I." Then the first person gets that expression of "dull surprise" on their face, as the songwriter so aptly put it.
Guess my relatives don't have the stereotypical Ivy League attitude or appearance.
I have noticed around here that Cornell grads are preternaturally excited to be among their own kind.

JaneV2.0
7-28-16, 8:59pm
It's funny, I have Ivy League grads in 2 generations of my family. They never bring it up unless it's directly discussed. And almost all of those situations involve someone else mentioning in a business setting that they should all defer to one of their colleagues because "they have a degree from U. of [Ivy League] school." Then my relatives get to say, "So do I." Then the first person gets that expression of "dull surprise" on their face, as the songwriter so aptly put it.
Guess my relatives don't have the stereotypical Ivy League attitude or appearance.

I got that gobsmacked expression a couple of times when I admitted to certain associations--like when registering for a class once it was pointed out to me that I required permission to register for an advanced class. I showed her the paperwork and she was visibly startled. I guess I looked dumber than usual that day. There have been other instances like this, none involving the rarefied Ivy League, though I entertained the idea of going to Bryn Mawr once. Closest I ever got; parents threw cold water all over that.

Lainey
7-29-16, 10:41am
When I was much younger I attended a free home financing session. I wanted to educate myself about all aspects before I started house-hunting. When I entered the room one of the coordinators handed me a brochure and said, "are you looking for a trailer home?" So I definitely don't have the Ivy League look :)

We are all taught to not judge by appearance and yet we all do it every day.

Chicken lady
7-29-16, 11:19am
I was just talking to dd last night - she was telling me about telling a friend at work about knowing ds's "other mom" (mom of his best friend)

she said: yeah, I used to know this red neck woman who picked her son up from my house in ratty clothes and a beat up car and lived in a fixer upper farm house in b*****k. And one day I started talking to her about what I wanted to do in school, and she said "you should come to work with me one day" and I asked "where do you work?" And she was a senior designer at (prestigious big city firm) on (international accounts). And the moral of this is : treat everybody like they're interesting.

Lainey
7-30-16, 2:03pm
Very true, Chicken lady. I've noticed that some people don't care much what they look like or what car they drive, but, for example, their homes are beautifully done.
Or they have an immaculate late-model car, but their house and yard look like nobody has done any work on it in years. They are personally very good people, just very different priorities.
Occasionally I look around at some older co-workers and based on their looks, I think that if they were out at a restaurant I bet the wait staff would assume they were some everyday bland golf-loving retiree when in fact they are some of the smartest people in the world in their field.

I wish there was a pill to anesthetize people against these useless social categories and make the default to always treat others as the human beings they really are, not our judgy perceptions.

pinkytoe
7-31-16, 9:59am
We are in a short term lease for six weeks in a somewhat "sketchy" neighborhood and notice all the really expensive cars parked in front of shabby houses. I wonder why?

sweetana3
7-31-16, 10:56am
The car is a more visible symbol of status wherever the person is going than a house. House is often shared and short term.

Chicken lady
7-31-16, 11:12am
I'm thinking - own car, rent house. Also probably easier to get a car loan.

ApatheticNoMore
7-31-16, 11:21am
I wouldn't even assume they ARE really expensive cars, I'd check what prices actually are on those cars used first, some cars depreciate like no tomorrow, so that even if they are expensive new they aren't actually expensive used (it's actually boring Japanese cars that will keep their value the most oftentimes - just reliability and ease of maintenance). If they are actually less than 3 year old cars or something they might be getting car leases.

mschrisgo2
7-31-16, 12:14pm
"Expensive" cars don't cost very much when they are sold after being out on lease for 2 years, typically about one third of their original "new cost." Then a five or six year loan can be obtained, making for relatively inexpensive, reliable transportation. (Because they were leased, they were usually well taken care of, otherwise there are charges for wear-and-tear and damages at turn in.) And, oh yeah, everyone can have a status symbol!