The Lure Of Minimalism

[Ultralight]

This is worth a read/listen. NPR's Diane Rehm show on minimalism.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2016-07-28/the-lure-of-minimalism

The comments are really interesting!

"Can you comment on how this movement is adding to our landfills."

"Great program! Much truth to this; personally the happiest I have been is when all I had with me was what I carried in my rucksack."

"We could probably solve the national debt if we would have one big national garage sale, proceeds going to pay down the debt."

[Chicken lady]

The comment I found interesting was about how it starts with your values and not about focusing on getting rid of stuff.

sort of like the story about the monk who carried the woman over the river and the junior monk who was upset about it - "I put the woman down on the riverbank and you're still carrying her."

i think if you leave the box of memorabilia in the attic your whole life and maybe look through it to find something that brings you a pleasant memory once or twice, that's much better than spending two hours sorting through it, deciding which things you need to take pictures of, and being stressed about throwing it out so you can have what? a little more empty space in your attic? If you're already living in a place that makes you happy, you're probably not going to downsize.

IMHO, the time to dump the box is when you need storage space for your new etsy store or a to finish the attic for a writing studio or so your kid can move back home or something.

[Tammy]

Your life might be better with just leaving the stuff in the attic. If you never move. But someone after your death will have to deal with it.

[Alan]

But someone after your death will have to deal with it.Or be overjoyed at the opportunity to cherish it.

[Chicken lady]

True, but you can't always predict how they will feel about it. Maybe they'll enjoy finding it and learning something about you. Maybe something that would have been your trash will become someone else's treasure.

and if Ultraliteangler were my kid, I'd just figure - he can spend whatever money I have left hiring someone to toss all my stuff out. Better than me spending my time doing it if it reduces my quality of life to do so.

After my my grandmother died, my mother spent months writing letters and sending clippings and photos that gram had saved to the families of the people in them. Some people probably thought she was crazy and they never responded, but many wrote letters back and she has renewed friendships with people from her childhood she lost touch with years ago and made new contacts that have enriched her life.

or, she could have dropped the whole box in the recycling bin in about three minutes.

she's now cleaning out her own stuff. Last week she went out to lunch with a girl who was in one of mom's kindergarten classes (and the "girl's" mom and new baby). She took a handful of photos from that year, including ones of a class activity the girl's father attended. Both women cried - the father has been dead for several years, and when the girl was a teenager the family lost everything in a fire. Those are literally the only pictures they have from her childhood. My mom had no idea.

Sometimes stuff matters. Sometimes you waste somebody's three minutes.

(Alan hadn't posted yet.

[iris lilies]

I see empty space in a house as opportunity, opportunity that allows me to act quickly to take in objects of the moment that improve our lives. Or opportunity to take on a new hobby because we have the room for it.

Our basement shelves are now full, natch, because humans fill up the space they have. Just a few years ago these shelves were half empty. (Iris' corollary is that humans fill up the time they have. If they have two hours to complete a one hiur job, if doing it often enough they will invent unnecessary tasks to stretch it to two hours.)

For instance, our basement is no longer a place that can neatly store large packages of dog food that we sometimes score in rescue giveaways. I have to cram it on shelevs and it spills over to the flooR. The basement does not comfortably hold the lots of seasonal produce, large lots of onions, squash, etc. they are laid out on tables (rendering the tables useless for any other purpose) and
I cant clean around there. Thre is dirt on the floor leftover from storing banana trees over winter.

so --clean, neat, open spaces suggest opportunity to me. I like to see things movng in and out, and I want them out when their usefulness is over, not when that space is needed for somethng more important,because I want to b engaged in the new thing and not be moving crap from old times.

boxes of other people's sentimental stuff burdons me. However--carefully curated stuff, items marked with a provenance might be cool. The average hoarder doesnt do any of the work to curate the collection and make it meaningful.

[jp1]

In dealing with the stuff left behind when someone passes both sides have merit. When I cleaned out dad's apartment 90% of the stuff was just ancient sheets and towels and other household goods that just needed to be disposed of. Yes, the yellow laundry basket was the only one my parents ever owned and therefore a part of my childhood. No, I didn't feel the need to sit and remember all the times I must've used it to bring clothes in off the line. But a few things were worth sitting and cherishing for a minute, and a few of those few I actually cared enough to bring home. A few more didn't' inspire me to bring them home but I did take pictures and texted them to my sister and the text conversation about those items made the task of disposing of his stuff by myself much more bearable. At the end of the day, though, I'm glad my parents weren't hoarders in even the most basic sense of the word. Spending a few hours one morning was enjoyable enough. A few days or weeks would've been much more of a chore.

[Chicken lady]

My mom said that leaving behind a giant house packed full of things that needed to be dealt with was a huge gift from my grandmother. Because they were incredibly close and my mom spent hours there every day. To suddenly have those hours open up into a void with nothing to fill them would have been crushing.

instead, she just kept going over to the house, processing the contents and her grief and slowly reaching out to new people and activities as she went - sometimes as a direct result of processing the house.

i don't like empty space, and as you say, something will fill it. I'd rather make it empty when the right something comes along - it's much easier for me now (do I want these baskets, or nothing? - baskets. They might be useful. Do I want these baskets or my grandmother's quilt - quilt, easy choice.)

dh tried to solve the "something will fill it" issue by rendering the space unusable as I emptied it. Because much of the space was "emptied" into temporary storage, we are going to have a giant arguement very soon ("I have three bins of stuff I want to keep that were on this shelf - now dissasembled - against this wall. In preparing for demolition, You moved the water softener in front of the wall over my objections. You said, and I quote, "it doesn't have to stay there." So are we moving the water heater again, or is there somewhere else you'd like me to set up this shelf?"....)

[ApatheticNoMore]

Yea, yea, noone ever asks the obvious question: if cleaning up for hoarders after they die is such a chore why don't kids have a right to start it before they die, clandestinely moving stuff out? Not cherished antiques and family pictures, but with hoarders it's mostly useless junk that noone cares about nor uses but yet they can't get rid of. My thoughts aren't meant to be pleasant :~) But really getting rid of hoards (true hoards not just stuff) improves everyone's quality of life.

[Chicken lady]

Because the difference between petty larceny and grand larceny is a question of absolute value, but both are theft?

[ApatheticNoMore]

So kids are just supposed to sit there passive victims waiting to be left with a place that takes months and months to be clean? But to @#$# and moan about it a lot presumably, on how unfair it is that hoarders etc. Meanwhile of course it's not necessarily just about death, how does one take care of elderly people living in a giant hoard? It makes it hard, no caretaker can possibly navigate the house etc..

[Chicken lady]

United States - You can refuse to accept both property and debt. You can also refuse to act as executor of the estate. The executor is the only one who has any obligation to deal with any assets or debits remaining.

so yeah. If it's not worth cleaning out, walk away. It wasn't yours to begin with.

[iris lilies]

So kids are just supposed to sit there passive victims waiting to be left with a place that takes months and months to be clean? But to @#$# and moan about it a lot presumably, on how unfair it is that hoarders etc. Meanwhile of course it's not necessarily just about death, how does one take care of elderly people living in a giant hoard? It makes it hard, no caretaker can possibly navigate the house etc..

Look, it isnt that hard if you dont make it hard.

Unless your dead ancient relative hid wads of cash everywhere, this is an easy method of parental digs clean up:

1) take a walk through the place, pick up the few things you want
2) hire a company to dispose of the rest

It really is not complicated. People get bogged down in thinking that you must touch each object.Hell no, chuck it all, and have objective people do the chucking.

If one is sharing an estate with siblings who think they have to caress, fondle, and sell each object in order to get maximum value, smile at them, tell them they are welcome to do that work, and give them a firm deadline by which it has to be accomplished. then walk away. There is a pretty good chance you will be doing #2 anyway.

[iris lilies]

To add: I did a version of this with my brother. He said he would sell my mother's useless and uninteresting objects on ebay. i told hm "Great! And you can keep 100% of the profits." Her antiques and hgher end stuff we split between the two of us. Two sets of sterling brought in a tidy sum.

Being a busy fellow he didnt actually do much selling on ebay. I think he took a fair amount of it to his garage sale. Some furniture we left in the house because we sold it to a relative and could ask if he wanted the pieces.

[Chicken lady]

A for care taking - if the house is not navigable, elder services will have the person moved. Again, you just call the objective agency.

[Ultralight]

The comment I found interesting was about how it starts with your values and not about focusing on getting rid of stuff.

Minimalism is like boxing -- 10% physical, 90% mental.


i think if you leave the box of memorabilia in the attic your whole life and maybe look through it to find something that brings you a pleasant memory once or twice, that's much better than spending two hours sorting through it, deciding which things you need to take pictures of, and being stressed about throwing it out so you can have what? a little more empty space in your attic? If you're already living in a place that makes you happy, you're probably not going to downsize.

How does the memorabilia make you feel better if you are not looking at it or using it? It is just sitting there?


IMHO, the time to dump the box is when you need storage space for your new etsy store or a to finish the attic for a writing studio or so your kid can move back home or something.

This smacks of mucho unfinished (probably unstarted) projects. Beware!

[Ultralight]

Your life might be better with just leaving the stuff in the attic. If you never move. But someone after your death will have to deal with it.

This is why I think part of compulsive hoarding comes from greed. It is like: "While I am alive this is all mine! All mine! And after I am gone it is just someone else's problem. So who cares?!"

[Ultralight]

Or be overjoyed at the opportunity to cherish it.

No harm in asking way ahead of time to find out.

[Ultralight]

True, but you can't always predict how they will feel about it. Maybe they'll enjoy finding it and learning something about you. Maybe something that would have been your trash will become someone else's treasure.


Beware of The Hoarder's Matchmaking Service.


and if Ultraliteangler were my kid, I'd just figure - he can spend whatever money I have left hiring someone to toss all my stuff out. Better than me spending my time doing it if it reduces my quality of life to do so.

Again, I think is is greed. Let's say no money for clean-up is left. Or let's say that money could have gone into a grandkid's college fund or a healthcare emergency fund for the kid's family. Instead it would have to be spent on a mess.

[iris lilies]

A for care taking - if the house is not navigable, elder services will have the person moved. Again, you just call the objective agency.
Well, it is not nearly that easy. Re-housng a human, or doing anything with a human, is NOT the easy job of dealng with objects. There are laws, rights, etc.

Or perhpas you were being facetious?

[iris lilies]

Beware of The Hoarder's Matchmaking Service.

.
God, I am sitting here looking at a small dog cushion that keeps falling off its temporary storage space because I do not have room for it. I am trying to match it ip with a French bulldog person. If I dont see her within the next 3 montjs, I am pitching it. I have already kept it for 6 months and have picked it up 3 times to pitch it. There is another thing that goes with it, flea treatments for small dog, so the two together are worth hangng onto for a while. Just a bit longer...

[iris lilies]

Beware of The Hoarder's Matchmaking Service.



Again, I think is is greed. Let's say no money for clean-up is left. Or let's say that money could have gone into a grandkid's college fund or a healthcare emergency fund for the kid's family. Instead it would have to be spent on a mess.

yes, it would be too bad, according to my values, if a house full of crap cost $3,000 to dispose of, and that money could,have gone to college educarion. I suppose that a real hoarder house would cost much more due to hazardous conditions.

We have hired many a dumpster and cleaned out out crap, usually plaster and woodwork and etc.

The last time was 2007 when the filthy pig,tenants of a property we purchased left a yard full of stuff includng lots of liqour bottles and dirty diapers. The inside was filthy, too. But the interior had to be gutted anyway, so that was more of a construction issue.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Again, I think is is greed. Let's say no money for clean-up is left. Or let's say that money could have gone into a grandkid's college fund or a healthcare emergency fund for the kid's family. Instead it would have to be spent on a mess.

yea I mean sure eventually there may be money from selling the house, but immediately of course one spends one's own money to clean it. That's reality. Of course hoarders houses are not maintained and will basically sell for the value of the land and maybe no more as they are totally dilapidated, although that is something, not nothing.

[Chicken lady]

On the issue of spending the money cleaning out the house instead of leaving it to a grandchild's college fund - I think most of the people here would be willing to accept that there is a money/time equivalent.

i think people are entitled to their own values. So J. Doe has just as much right to decide to spend time doing something other than cleaning out the house, knowing that the estate will have to pay for that, as to choose to retire early when working longer could have meant a larger financial inheritance for the grandchildren. Same choice - I spend my time in a way that does not make you richer.

if the estate can't afford the clean up, again, you can walk away from the estate. The cost is now born by the county that taxed the property.

but honestly, I 'm not talking about a choice between extreme rat infested hoarding and a futon in an empty house. I'm talking about having a bunch of stuff ranging from very nice to useful, to random broken crap that you really intended to fix (and maybe I fix it and maybe I don't, but if I throw it out,t definitely doesn't get fixed, so maybe here's a touch of optimism involved). That somebody has to move if they want your house. Which is generally a reasonable trade, and if isn't, they don't have to accept the inheritance (unless "they" are the county - which I guess makes you a bad citizen.)

[Chicken lady]

Oh, and ultralite, some of us are just happy knowing that the photos or whatever are there and we can go pick them up and look at them. Even if we don't, or if we only do once ten years from now, the knowing we can adds happiness to our life.

my cousin has the love seat we sat on together every Christmas as kids. She said I can come visit it anytime. If she decides to get rid of it, I know she will offer it to me first. Even if I never see it again, knowing where it is makes me happy when I think of it. If it had gone in the household auction, I would have been just a little bit sadder.

[iris lilies]

Chicken lady, I think that maybe your relationship with "stuff" is like my relationship with money. My stash sits in the back of my mind, it provides me comfort, but I forget details. I just like thinking about it and having it.

As an example, today I am very happy because I "discovered" a batch of money. In a recent meeting with a health
insurance broker, both DH and I told her had $x in financial instruments, but after a few days that didnt seem right to me. So last night I reviewed accounts and lo, we have 41% more than that. Found money! Haha.I will be happy about this all week.

My relationship with money is not entirely healthy.

[Tammy]

That is true Alan. It's all in the glasses we wear. 😄

[Tammy]

Some of the blessing versus curse opinions have to do with whether there's a time limit on dealing the deceased persons stuff. The home may have to be vacated or sold within a few weeks depending g on circumstances.

[iris lilies]

Some of the blessing versus curse opinions have to do with whether there's a time limit on dealing the deceased persons stuff. The home may have to be vacated or sold within a few weeks depending g on circumstances.
Absolutely.
Honestly, I find that people who value stuffover time do not place a high value on timeliness and deadlines.

[Teacher Terry]

If people are competent they can live in some pretty bad, unhealthy conditions before social services can do anything about it. My Mom and my BF both knew they were dying so got rid of bunch of stuff before they did which was priceless. I am doing the same now so as not to burden my kids. My Mom had a bunch of pics of people that I did not know. Who would want those? WE got to choose the pics we wanted and she threw away the rest. My kids have told me to leave the pics and they will take what they want before pitching the rest. When my dH dies his crap will be a burden to either me or his kids. Since his stuff is in zones I told all the kids if we both die together his kids can deal with his crap and mine with my stuff. It's a ton of work to clean out a person's house if they save so much junk and not fun. It is the very rare person that actually enjoys doing it.

[Ultralight]

The last time was 2007 when the filthy pig,tenants of a property we purchased left a yard full of stuff includng lots of liqour bottles and dirty diapers. The inside was filthy, too.

Horrible!

[Ultralight]

if the estate can't afford the clean up, again, you can walk away from the estate. The cost is now born by the county that taxed the property.

Still rather inconsiderate.

[Chicken lady]

I did say it makes you a bad citizen.

but one could argue the same about voting (fill in political party of your choice)

[iris lilies]

If people are competent they can live in some pretty bad, unhealthy conditions before social services can do anything about it. My Mom and my BF both knew they were dying so got rid of bunch of stuff before they did which was priceless. I am doing the same now so as not to burden my kids. My Mom had a bunch of pics of people that I did not know. Who would want those? WE got to choose the pics we wanted and she threw away the rest. My kids have told me to leave the pics and they will take what they want before pitching the rest. When my dH dies his crap will be a burden to either me or his kids. Since his stuff is in zones I told all the kids if we both die together his kids can deal with his crap and mine with my stuff. It's a ton of work to clean out a person's house if they save so much junk and not fun. It is the very rare person that actually enjoys doing it.

I cannot name one persn who enjoyed it.

I can point to several people who were paralyzed by the job, and could not move on it for years. Now, these are not people I knew well and it is possible they had hoarder tendancies themselves.

[Ultralight]

I was thinking about the phrase "The Lure of Minimalism."

This really implies that it looks like an attractive way of life to many people. And I believe this, much like fitness looks like an attractive way of life.

But how many people are really fit?

[Chicken lady]

Usually if there is an estate to be processed, someone you care about is dead. "Enjoying it" would be sort of like saying you enjoyed a funeral. Doesn't mean people should stop having funerals. They serve an important function for many people in processing grief. In my family, every gathering to deal with what was left behind has been a time of sharing and reminiscing and the people who took stuff home were happy to have it. There have been times when someone felt decisions were taking too long, but nobody ever complained about the "taking out the trash" parts. And my one set of great grandparents were the kind of hoarders who fill the cellar with expired food.

ironically, I think this is because, while I come from a family that likes stuff, I also come from a family where stuff is never more important than people.

when my paternal grandfather died, nobody wanted anything but the few family pictures and some books, and his widow gave it all to the church to sell and moved into assisted living. He wasn't the kind of guy who made you feel sentimental about keeping his (whatever). More the kind where you changed out the frame so the photo didn't look like it came from his living room anymore.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I was thinking about the phrase "The Lure of Minimalism."

This really implies that it looks like an attractive way of life to many people. And I believe this, much like fitness looks like an attractive way of life.

But how many people are really fit?

It looks like an attractive way of life until it is weighed against other priorities in a time crunched culture. Fitness will certainly take time (at the gym etc.). It's not necessarily weakness to determine working out at the gym is not one's top priority, it's prioritization. Whether one's priorities are right or wrong, who can say? One could try them out I suppose and see which ones are the best fit. That's more objective than the usual approach. I mean a lot of other things that one does are also beneficial to ones health (one could be cooking, or socializing, or meditating etc.). Everything looks like an attractive way of life to a culture of advertising and fantasy where we imagine we somehow could have it all (and my home is going to be decorated just like on the housing shows, and I'm going to have the body of a movie star, and the mind of a Zen monk, and etc.).

[Simplemind]

This thread makes me sweat just reading it. I think I have PTSD from taking care of my parents property. Even before we got to the end game I would be depressed when I went over there because I could see the work ahead of me and it was crushing. I dipped my toe in a little for a couple of years and was able to get some things in garage sales. They were not hoarders but I would call it avid collecting. Each having their own areas of interest and basically unlimited places to put it. My mom had always wanted to open her own antique store, she worked in a consignment shop and always (seriously, always) came home with something. After she died I started working on the out buildings and farm equipment. After moving my dad two years later I got down to the house. Still brings tears to my eyes thinking about it. There was just so much when we started getting up into the attics. It was like the end of Indiana Jones where they are storing the Arc of the Covenant in the warehouse. It took me a good year, the last 6 months working almost every day before I could get a pro in to run an estate sale. Watching all that stuff go was a head trip. Never, ever will we leave something even close to this for our kids. I had so much anger that they never thought what this would be like to take on. There was a ton of treasure but nothing much that we wanted. Beyond a few things here and there it was a huge burden to have that responsibility. I can feel my blood pressure going up as I type. For the love of all that is holy...............never leave it for your kids to clean up.

[Ultralight]

This thread makes me sweat just reading it. I think I have PTSD from taking care of my parents property. Even before we got to the end game I would be depressed when I went over there because I could see the work ahead of me and it was crushing. I dipped my toe in a little for a couple of years and was able to get some things in garage sales. They were not hoarders but I would call it avid collecting. Each having their own areas of interest and basically unlimited places to put it. My mom had always wanted to open her own antique store, she worked in a consignment shop and always (seriously, always) came home with something. After she died I started working on the out buildings and farm equipment. After moving my dad two years later I got down to the house. Still brings tears to my eyes thinking about it. There was just so much when we started getting up into the attics. It was like the end of Indiana Jones where they are storing the Arc of the Covenant in the warehouse. It took me a good year, the last 6 months working almost every day before I could get a pro in to run an estate sale. Watching all that stuff go was a head trip. Never, ever will we leave something even close to this for our kids. I had so much anger that they never thought what this would be like to take on. There was a ton of treasure but nothing much that we wanted. Beyond a few things here and there it was a huge burden to have that responsibility. I can feel my blood pressure going up as I type. For the love of all that is holy...............never leave it for your kids to clean up.

Wow... That is really bad. Sorry you had to go through this.

[ApatheticNoMore]

This thread makes me sweat just reading it. I think I have PTSD from taking care of my parents property. Even before we got to the end game I would be depressed when I went over there because I could see the work ahead of me and it was crushing. I dipped my toe in a little for a couple of years and was able to get some things in garage sales. They were not hoarders but I would call it avid collecting. Each having their own areas of interest and basically unlimited places to put it. My mom had always wanted to open her own antique store, she worked in a consignment shop and always (seriously, always) came home with something. After she died I started working on the out buildings and farm equipment. After moving my dad two years later I got down to the house. Still brings tears to my eyes thinking about it. There was just so much when we started getting up into the attics. It was like the end of Indiana Jones where they are storing the Arc of the Covenant in the warehouse. It took me a good year, the last 6 months working almost every day before I could get a pro in to run an estate sale. Watching all that stuff go was a head trip. Never, ever will we leave something even close to this for our kids. I had so much anger that they never thought what this would be like to take on. There was a ton of treasure but nothing much that we wanted. Beyond a few things here and there it was a huge burden to have that responsibility. I can feel my blood pressure going up as I type. For the love of all that is holy...............never leave it for your kids to clean up.

that's what I'm on about in suggesting preemptively cleaning out. Instead of just pleading to indifferent people to change (really although people CAN change when they want to AND and have whatever support they need from the universe to - ie they need to be in a position in their life where they have whatever resources they need to, hoarders are not just going to change because one makes a plea). But as for never thinking about what others will take on - people are too deep in their own psychological problems sometimes to really think about other people much at all.

[Teacher Terry]

I did not mean "enjoy it" exactly but CL mentioned that her Mom was glad she had to focus on getting rid of her mother's stuff as it gave her something to do in the time she used to visit with her. I thought that was a little strange and that is what I was referring too. I think it is in most situations a bad idea to leave your heirs to get rid of your junk. Give them a gift and do it yourself now.

[Chicken lady]

I think it may be the mental set "getting rid of"[her mother's]"stuff". That is the disconnect here. I think it was the "hoarder matchmaking" so frequently condemned that helped my mom - gathering things up and gifting them to the people who had been part of my grandmother's life whom my mom knew actually wanted those things, reaching out and making new connections that would not have occurred, stumbling across lost or forgotten "treasures" and sharing stories and memories with her brother and other family members.

in the end there was a two day estate auction and everything left was thrown away or hauled to charity. Mom avoided the auction and would haven one better to pick a charity's that would have picked everything up.