View Full Version : Do we live in a toxic culture?
Ultralight
8-15-16, 8:49am
I was scanning over the headlines of the news this morning.
And I just thought (not for the first time...) that we live in a profoundly toxic culture.
Anyone else feel this way?
Where did we go so wrong?
Is there any way to a distinctly better future?
Is simple living a way you resist our toxic culture?
ApatheticNoMore
8-15-16, 9:09am
Well to a large extent maybe everyone lives in their OWN culture anyway (ethnic groups have cultural differences of course, but even if not particularly ethnic - we live as we are raised by our parents, in the narrow reality we experience everyday (maybe it's just going to work and back), by the people we know or sometimes the lack of people we know, to a small extent by the influences we let in etc.).
Now if this is something like mainstream entertainment is garbage (much of it is - I don't like the overall worldview), advertising is ridiculous, the t.v. news sensationalizes violence etc. (that it does), the economic system is brutal (that it often is), our politicians suck (many of them do although they are made that way by systematic pressures), then hmm yes those are broad things that have more or less influence (I mean one could avoid entertainment and t.v. news and even ignore politics, but one can't entirely avoid their influence on other people and one can pretty much never avoid the job market and other economic pressures like the rental market etc.).
There have always been those living on the edges of "normality" or statistical averages. It is just that our media, to get ratings, pushes all the sensationalized stories as far as they can on as many platforms as possible.
If you dig deep, no country has a totally homogenized culture. Some, Japanese as an example, are better at pushing all parts of the population to follow the leader and be the "same". But even in Japan, there are those that are way outside the norm.
What do you consider toxic? Is it personally experienced or in your mind due to media influence?
I agree that we do very much live in a toxic culture.
Personally I find that simple living plays a big part in my ability to remove myself from the toxic nature of the world around me. I don't isolate myself, but I do choose what I expose myself to. A major part of simplicity for me was removing television in all forms from my life. I get my news via the Washington post, Wall Street Journal and NPR. I control when and how much news I take in that way.
HappyHiker
8-15-16, 12:58pm
Good question! And one I ponder myself. It seems to me that over the last 50 years, we've glorified and sensationalized violence and mayhem.
As a kid we used to play cowboys and Indians but that was tame compared to the video games kids and adults and the movies we show of death and destruction. Lots of explosions. Chases. Death.
I wonder if it's "monkey see, monkey do"? Are we brainwashing citizens to emulate mass murders and death by automatic war weapons? There's a saying that "you become that which you concentrate on." So if many impressionable minds are surrounded by news and "entertainment" that's toxic and violent, is that what we're becoming (or have become??)
Me? I avoid clicking on headlines that lead to stories of violence and destruction. I do click on stories of human kindness. Even cute puppy and kittens. Nature stories. The lighter and better side of life. I don't choose to concentrate on the dark side.
And yes, we do live (partially) in a toxic environment. I'm not sure why it's being foisted on us though....bears exploring.
Where did we go so wrong?
I point at the adoption of agriculture.
http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1348739311l/1442300.jpg
All in all, I don't think so. Maybe some aspects of it are more "toxic" than in previous times, but those are offset by progress made in other areas. I guess it's all in what you focus on.
Ultralight
8-15-16, 3:09pm
I point at the adoption of agriculture.
I agree with you, even though I know you are just mocking.
I agree with you, even though I know you are just mocking.
Nope.
I would say there are toxic elements in our culture (big ones). A lot of it due to of dysfunctionality - and a lot of it due to the same reason we create so much toxicity in our environment - people trying to gain money/power.
I think part of the problem is this toxicity is often presented in such a way as to get people to throw up their hands, go into apathy mode and let it continue. Especially this notion that there should be a way to "fix" it. Which I think is total nonsense. To use a house analogy - no matter what you do in/to your house, things will get dirty, broken, worn out, and have to be addressed over and over on an ongoing basis - there is no "fix" that will make that go away. But we get hammered into us we should be able to "fix" these problems so they go away. It's a utopian notion that just doesn't work.
Changing the world is very hard - but while changing yourself is well within one's scope, most don't bother. Because it won't "fix" the bigger problems. I think if more people addressed what they can change, the world would be a lot better. Not "fixed", but better.
ApatheticNoMore
8-15-16, 3:45pm
Well if the toxic element is the pursuit of money then yea.
frugal-one
8-15-16, 3:46pm
Talked with my brother yesterday who was reading a book about the 1920's in Milwaukee. He said the times then were REALLY bad. There were all kinds of mafia (not just Italians) and many shootings. He says we are no where near as bad now. Will have to ask him the name of the book. So.... "make America great again"..... is a fallacy!
ApatheticNoMore
8-15-16, 3:53pm
So.... "make America great again"..... is a fallacy!
I'm planning to make hats: "America it never was all that good to begin with" Don't quit the day job?
frugal-one
8-15-16, 3:56pm
I'm planning to make hats: "America it never was all that good to begin with" Don't quit the day job?
Obviously, you have done very little traveling outside of the US. If you had, you would know why we have so many illegal aliens and why people WANT to live here. My advice to you.... leave if you think it is so bad!
Obviously, you have done very little traveling outside of the US. If you had, you would know why we have so many illegal aliens and why people WANT to live here. My advice to you.... leave if you think it is so bad!
Well, I think the U.S. is changing a lot. Most of us were comfortable with the way it was in years gone by. Just because some of us find it disconcerting/uncomfortable/scary with some of the changes, doesn't mean we should leave........and ruin some other country with overcrowding, refusing to assimilate, etc. Yes, there are many great things about the U.S., but I also think there are plenty of things we could do to change the less-good aspects of it. Actually, I think some of the other more advanced countries' citizens are starting to feel the same about their countries too.....and not feeling too great about it.
Teacher Terry
8-15-16, 6:21pm
My parents were born in 1920 and we lived between Milwaukee and Chicago. They talked about the mobs, killings, etc. Also when things got hot the mobsters would go up to northern Wis to hide.
HappyHiker
8-15-16, 7:19pm
The mob killings in the 1920's & 30's were terrible from documentaries I've seen. But for me, the difference today, are the mass shootings in schools, colleges, malls, movie theaters, churches and nightclubs. Random acts of killing innocent victims.
Or citizens being shot or harmed by police...and citizens harming the police.
We're at war with one another -- not mobsters killing other mobsters.
The growing hatred and harming of other humans, unknown to the killers, is what alarms me.
I think I've posted about this before, but there's an observable increase in narcissism and a decline in empathy:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/09/23/facebook-and-narcissism/is-declining-empathy-technologys-fault
Lots of ideas of why this is, but no one provable cause. My money is on over-population and increased work expectations, i.e., you're expected to be always available. Meaning you can't escape the rat race to decompress so you have nothing extra left to give to anyone else.
I think I've posted about this before, but there's an observable increase in narcissism and a decline in empathy:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/09/23/facebook-and-narcissism/is-declining-empathy-technologys-fault
Lots of ideas of why this is, but no one provable cause. My money is on over-population and increased work expectations, i.e., you're expected to be always available. Meaning you can't escape the rat race to decompress so you have nothing extra left to give to anyone else.
I had two friends today call me stressed out and griping about things going on with their jobs, so maybe my perspective is skewed, but I tend to think you may be on to something regarding work expectations. A common refrain that comes up in general work discussions with older coworkers/professional contacts is the crazy pace of the business world today. Both in the sheer amount of work people are expected to plow through now compared with the past and in the pace of change organizationally. Maybe people's memories are clouded by rose colored glasses (and not a small amount of alcohol consumption, a still common part of business dinners and after work meetings in my industry) but pretty much everyone talks about how much more "civilized" our business used to be until 15-20 years ago. I assume that people in other industries have the same conversations.
A few months ago one of the global product heads was in town for meetings and did an employee town hall for anyone interested in attending. Talking about the ongoing reorganization (5 years and counting) he asked rhetorically "who here doesn't like change?" One of my coworker friends who is nearing retirement age, sitting in the front row next to me, raised her hand. Of course she was the only one to admit it, and the global head is a decent enough person that he didn't call her out on this, but I'm sure at least half the people in the room felt the same way as her.
iris lilies
8-15-16, 9:36pm
I cant see how extreme expectations of the workplace affect young men in gangs who create 85% of the gun violence around here. They aren't sittng at their desks for 12 hours chasing producton numbers.
Which is not to say that poverty and a life on the streets isnt stressful, but thats not what you all are talking about.
I guess I didn't take the OP to only be concerned, or even mostly concerned, with gun violence. Just re-scanned the current headlines on google news and the vast majority have nothing to do with gun violence in poor neighborhoods.
I guess I didn't take the OP to only be concerned, or even mostly concerned, with gun violence. Just re-scanned the current headlines on google news and the vast majority have nothing to do with gun violence in poor neighborhoods.
We don't seem to be very concerned with gun violence in poor neighborhoods - as long as it stays there. We have not been very successful getting rid of it - but we've done a pretty good job delineating where it should happen if it occurs.
I'd forgotten--blissfully--how toxic workplaces can be. And you're right--they were much more relaxed until the eighties came along.
I had two friends today call me stressed out and griping about things going on with their jobs, so maybe my perspective is skewed, but I tend to think you may be on to something regarding work expectations. A common refrain that comes up in general work discussions with older coworkers/professional contacts is the crazy pace of the business world today. Both in the sheer amount of work people are expected to plow through now compared with the past and in the pace of change organizationally. Maybe people's memories are clouded by rose colored glasses (and not a small amount of alcohol consumption, a still common part of business dinners and after work meetings in my industry) but pretty much everyone talks about how much more "civilized" our business used to be until 15-20 years ago. I assume that people in other industries have the same conversations.
.
I agree, i hear it from people in a variety of industries. At our meditation group we are all focused on more sustainable lifestyles with a focus on meditation and healthy living, and it is very hard to do even with that intention and some serious simple living. Our work load is increasing all the time, today a few of us were furious. Some staff did not get paid, we checked and we had done everything correctly but some people are on paper time sheets instead of in the payroll system. We used to have a great staff person who knew all of us and would double check if we were missing a time sheet. Now they replaced all the great 'relationship' people who also did good jobs with more specialized people who are better at accounting but don't have the personal touch and built in checks and balances based on relationships. This coincides with adding so many duties, higher payroll work, our own purchasing and documentation of all purchases, becoming hiring managers with all the related paperwork (and that means we need to know some important HR rules of course), plus always pushing for higher quality programs. I am just tired, not of my job but all the extra push. I work very hard at making sure I am not overdoing it but almost none of us have found ways to do that.
I point at the adoption of agriculture.
http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1348739311l/1442300.jpg
Cool! I haven't read that Jensen book. I'll have to check it out.
catherine
8-16-16, 10:17am
In my quest to learn more about the Jensen book, I stumbled upon a book by Lierre Keith, The Vegetarian Myth, which says:
“The reality is that agriculture has created a net loss for human rights and culture: slavery, imperialism, militarism, class divisions, chronic hunger, and disease. “The real problem, then, is not to explain why some people were slow to adopt agriculture but why anybody took it up at all, when it is so obviously beastly,” writes Colin Tudge of The London School of Economics.3 Agriculture has also been devastating to the other creatures with whom we share the earth, and ultimately to the life support systems of the planet itself. What is at stake is everything. If we want a sustainable world, we have to be willing to examine the power relations behind the foundational myth of our culture. Anything less and we will fail.
Questioning at that level is difficult for most people. ”
Excerpt From: Lierre Keith. “The Vegetarian Myth.” iBooks.
Keith's book was ground-breaking and the idea that agriculture was the start of everything bad--like the population explosion and a decline in overall health--has some merit.
I agree, i hear it from people in a variety of industries. At our meditation group we are all focused on more sustainable lifestyles with a focus on meditation and healthy living, and it is very hard to do even with that intention and some serious simple living. Our work load is increasing all the time, today a few of us were furious. Some staff did not get paid, we checked and we had done everything correctly but some people are on paper time sheets instead of in the payroll system. We used to have a great staff person who knew all of us and would double check if we were missing a time sheet. Now they replaced all the great 'relationship' people who also did good jobs with more specialized people who are better at accounting but don't have the personal touch and built in checks and balances based on relationships. This coincides with adding so many duties, higher payroll work, our own purchasing and documentation of all purchases, becoming hiring managers with all the related paperwork (and that means we need to know some important HR rules of course), plus always pushing for higher quality programs. I am just tired, not of my job but all the extra push. I work very hard at making sure I am not overdoing it but almost none of us have found ways to do that.
This, yes. I nearly have tears in my eyes reading this. I SO desire to "focus on a more sustainable lifestyle with focus on meditation and healthy living" with more mindfulness and intention in my daily activity. I really look forward with hope to retire in another four years. But right now, my employer has just had a 10% layoff (which I survived) and one person who retired was not replaced as well as someone who was fired was also not replaced. So the result is that the same amount of workload is being done by those of us who are left. I cannot even take more than one day off occasionally because of the added workload and stress it would cause my coworkers who would have to cover me. I am getting to the point of burnout, but at my age, I cannot even imagine looking for another job. I could really use a week or 10 days to decompress and renew myself, but I don't see it happening any time soon.
It does affect my outlook on life as a whole. I've always said, and maybe this is the crux of the problem we're discussing, if you don't have much (or any) hope, what really do you have at all? What is there to look forward to?
Gardenarian
8-16-16, 4:47pm
Yes, we live in a toxic culture.
What is there to look forward to? Change.
Interesting times.
Kay, I get it. I have to realize that there is a limited amount of what I can do to change things. My encouragement today was having all my staff at training (I still need one afternoon person) and realizing I could count on them. I may be able to not kill myself this year running a basic program, but I also know I need to use my better staffing to grow areas of my career since I am 50 and will likely work until I am 70. With staff to train and develop I just have another role. It doesn't take much to not be considered doing a good job, and reviews are taken very seriously.
Meanwhile I know that we had huge fallout from the 'bad year' as I am calling it. We had some layoffs, a forced retirement, others leaving simply because it was that bad. My coworker was put in a position that was a total slap in the face, he was basically demoted in a group meeting without any prior warning. Just a new organizational chart that put him reporting to someone who had been his peer. So he quit, his wife's income is very nice so he could. He has not worked in the field since then, and is not likely to get an interview or a job again in our field. I can't do that, it hurt to suck up my unfair bad review after the bad year but I have a job. I really do like it, and the workload pressure is high. I see it everywhere.
What brings tears to my eyes is when I hear the misunderstandings I get from my parents. They truly don't get how the working world has changed, there is frustration with me that I can't take time off or that I bring work home in the evenings when I just want them to appreciate how hard I try to make time for them and everyone.
Thinking more about this it occurred to me that evidence of our toxic culture, or whatever one wants to call it, exists on the comments pages of virtually every news web site. Even the most innocuous articles seem to inspire people to become nasty pricks about whatever they happen to be angry about, even if only tangentially or not at all related to the article.
I don't know for sure why all the anger, and maybe it existed before but just wasn't so visible before the internet came along.
My question would be toxic compared to what? The idyllic life of Stone Age hunter-gatherers? The joyful existence of medieval serfs? Any other historical or contemporary group? I think you could make a decent argument that our current reality compares pretty favorably with most other situations if you strip away the idealization.
Thinking more about this it occurred to me that evidence of our toxic culture, or whatever one wants to call it, exists on the comments pages of virtually every news web site. Even the most innocuous articles seem to inspire people to become nasty pricks about whatever they happen to be angry about, even if only tangentially or not at all related to the article.
I don't know for sure why all the anger, and maybe it existed before but just wasn't so visible before the internet came along.
Yep, less kindness, more snark. Less of "if you can't say something nice...." and more in your face self-righteousness.
Yep, less kindness, more snark. Less of "if you can't say something nice...." and more in your face self-righteousness.
but of course this is what our entertainment is based on - watching YouTube videos of people being nice doesn't sell :(
ApatheticNoMore
8-18-16, 2:47am
I sure miss the good old days when people only took their frustration out on loved ones like their spouses and kids rather than on internet comments.
I sure miss the good old days when people only took their frustration out on loved ones like their spouses and kids rather than on internet comments.
Exactly. Are we a nastier people than we used to be, or are we just better at documenting our nastiness?
Gardenarian
8-19-16, 3:16pm
My question would be toxic compared to what? The idyllic life of Stone Age hunter-gatherers? The joyful existence of medieval serfs? Any other historical or contemporary group? I think you could make a decent argument that our current reality compares pretty favorably with most other situations if you strip away the idealization.
This is true, but the price we pay is destroying the planet. Western civilization can not continue in it's current form; it is impossible.
At the current rate of global destruction, much of the Earth will be uninhabitable by 2100.
This is true, but the price we pay is destroying the planet. Western civilization can not continue in it's current form; it is impossible.
At the current rate of global destruction, much of the Earth will be uninhabitable by 2100.
Western Civilization won't continue in it's current form. It's been changing since before Pericles made his first stump speech.
I can remember Paul Erlich's predictions well enough to drastically discount doomsayers. We've been making a monkey of Malthus long enough to to give me a measure of confidence that there will still be humans snarking at each other in Anno Domini 2100.
I can remember Paul Erlich's predictions well enough to drastically discount doomsayers. We've been making a monkey of Malthus long enough to to give me a measure of confidence that there will still be humans snarking at each other in Anno Domini 2100.
But the thing is, people who are talking about the destruction aren't predicting--they are observing. There's a big difference.
But the thing is, people who are talking about the destruction aren't predicting--they are observing. There's a big difference.
The beauty of this argument is all we need to do to settle it is wait 84 years.
Gardenarian
8-19-16, 5:27pm
The beauty of this argument is all we need to do to settle it is wait 84 years.
No, you just need to read the newspaper. Or visit the websites of those zany folks at NASA or the IPCC...
No, you just need to read the newspaper. Or visit the websites of those zany folks at NASA or the IPCC...
I went to the Arctic and a few other crucial places, and observed with my own lyin' eyes.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EeeXPAuoiA8/Sa3mjwt0h0I/AAAAAAAAAGk/-k-hJnbVfII/s400/sm090303g.jpg
I take unrepentant satisfaction in the probability that James Howard Kunstler probably won't live to see the apocalypse he insists is just around the corner--and apparently fervently longs for. :devil:
No, you just need to read the newspaper. Or visit the websites of those zany folks at NASA or the IPCC...
Been reading that newspaper long enough to not believe everything I read. I have no doubt that humanity has a sell-by date. I just don't accept your appeal-to-authority argument that the end is predictably nigh. We've had enough folks crying wolf (or crying krill) over the years that I'm willing to proceed on the assumption that the sun will rise tomorrow.
Been reading that newspaper long enough to not believe everything I read. I have no doubt that humanity has a sell-by date. I just don't accept your appeal-to-authority argument that the end is predictably nigh. We've had enough folks crying wolf (or crying krill) over the years that I'm willing to proceed on the assumption that the sun will rise tomorrow.
The Antarctic ozone hole is closing, the population is leveling off, and alternate forms of power are finally making real strides. We have a way to go, but I'm optimistic, too. Whether humans stay or go, the earth is likely to survive us.
The Antarctic ozone hole is closing, the population is leveling off, and alternate forms of power are finally making real strides. We have a way to go, but I'm optimistic, too. Whether humans stay or go, the earth is likely to survive us.
The beauty of that approach is that you can only be wrong once, and you won't need to listen to "I told you so". There's very little downside to betting on a muddle-through continued existence.
Will we absent-mindedly leave the oven on and burn the planet down? Is there a meteor with our name on it? Will some nihilist headcase with a grudge get himself a superweapon? Will an advanced interstellar race take a culinary interest in us? Will the sun belch us into a cinder? Will the arthropods repossess the planet for nonpayment? Will we be pecked to death by black swans?
All possibilities. Eventually luck runs out. But nobody, no entropy entrepreneur, no philosopher-bureaucrat, credentialed cassandra or grant-funded haruspex knows when.
I have a friend who does global warming research, she has the coolest job really. She is also pretty conservative politically so I feel like I get a very informed point of view from her. So yes we have a problem, and more people are agreeing! However I keep learning information that says the average person is working at things that make a difference and larger corporations are the ones who have the biggest impact and are least likely to change what they do.
I have a friend who does global warming research, she has the coolest job really. She is also pretty conservative politically so I feel like I get a very informed point of view from her. So yes we have a problem, and more people are agreeing! However I keep learning information that says the average person is working at things that make a difference and larger corporations are the ones who have the biggest impact and are least likely to change what they do.
That is not surprising. Corporations are supposedly people. But they lack consciences so,why would they be concerned about the plight of the planet. Of course if they were actual people who lacked a conscience we'd label them as sociopaths...
That is not surprising. Corporations are supposedly people. But they lack consciences so,why would they be concerned about the plight of the planet. Of course if they were actual people who lacked a conscience we'd label them as sociopaths...
http://www.stephaniemcmillan.org/codegreen/comics/2011-03-21-push-their-agenda.jpg
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