View Full Version : The Class Politics of Decluttering
Ultralight
8-17-16, 7:37am
Check this out! Jane and bae will love this one!
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/18/opinion/the-class-politics-of-decluttering.html?_r=1&referer=
This is another anti-minimalism article.
ApatheticNoMore
8-17-16, 8:03am
It it something like, it makes sense in certain situations to stock up or hold on when you live at the poverty level? Maybe. I could see how even keeping a half working version of something makes sense if the good version might die and you have no way to afford to get a new one. Or something like: hey it's hard to make minimalism a priority when you are working 3 part time minimum wage jobs to survive. For sure, in fact it's insane to even think much about. But then unless one is foolish enough to think they have the answers for everyone in all situations that they have no experience even living in (in other words privilege indeed), so what?
I have to suspect that some of the commentators are right, that poor people are quite likely to be working black friday rather than shopping, because a lot of jobs, yes working class jobs, aren't going to give much in the way of holidays, much less an extra day like that, that's often the realm of government workers and white collar work (so long as it's not mission critical). It is indeed *privilege* to have the typical 7 or so holidays, meager as they may be. Some will pay overtime for black Friday work, some won't. I don't even know if she is particularly poor or not, I mean lots of middle class people at one time grew up without the kids having their own room (that was the "good old days"), and whether you can buy a house entirely depends on how expensive houses are relative to your income where you are (many people do rent houses for somewhat less - but I don't know many people who could EVER do so on ONE income if that's the situation!!).
I'll admit that I don't understand either the whole minimalism thing or the reaction to it.
The term "minimalism", or the "least possible", strikes me as something of an extreme position. Most extreme positions strike me as being a bit on the silly side. I'm not going to worry overmuch, for instance, about the pickle jar of odd screws and bolts in my garage being inconsistent with some greater life philosophy.
On the other hand, studied critiques of extreme positions strikes me as equally silly. If other peoples' chosen lifestyle costs the rest of us nothing, how is it not a waste of time to worry about it?
Applying grandiose race and class theories to such a mundane aspect of life makes me believe that our chattering classes have perhaps become too large.
I think the theory is that your pickle jar full of screws and bolts somehow snatches the food out of poor peoples' mouths. Or something. I suspect I'm willfully misunderstanding.
Since I regularly donate my excess to be sold for pennies on the dollar, I fell I'm contributing to the general largesse. I could be wrong.
Applying grandiose race and class theories to such a mundane aspect of life makes me believe that our chattering classes have perhaps become too large.
And yet here we are. We've read the article and now we're talking about it. Like anything else, chatterers are going to chatter about whatever they think people will read because they will stop being paid to chatter if they write stuff no one wants to read. Maybe we're reaching the point of peak chatterer. At least this article had something to say, however unimportant some people find it, unlike the guy who went to the Olympics and the best idea he could come up with was to go on a gay dating app to see if athletes have sex. Not only was his article 100% pointless beyond appealing to the easily click-baitable, but it was actively harmful to some of his unlucky victims. Several were from countries significantly less accepting of gay people than his own and got outed in the process.
I have to suspect that some of the commentators are right, that poor people are quite likely to be working black friday rather than shopping, because a lot of jobs, yes working class jobs, aren't going to give much in the way of holidays, much less an extra day like that, that's often the realm of government workers and white collar work (so long as it's not mission critical). It is indeed *privilege* to have the typical 7 or so holidays, meager as they may be. Some will pay overtime for black Friday work, some won't. I don't even know if she is particularly poor or not, I mean lots of middle class people at one time grew up without the kids having their own room (that was the "good old days"), and whether you can buy a house entirely depends on how expensive houses are relative to your income where you are (many people do rent houses for somewhat less - but I don't know many people who could EVER do so on ONE income if that's the situation!!).
But don't all the black friday sales start at like 3:00 am or something? Even in Upton Sinclair's The Jungle people didn't have to be at work that early. Plenty of time to get one's shopping done beforehand. And regardless, I think the author's point probably has at least some validity. Anyone willing to go deal with the crowds to get black friday deals is doing so either because they are poor or cheap. I suppose there are a few doing so because they enjoy the hustle bustle of people in a toxic culture aggressively going about their American duty to consume but I can't imagine that that's a majority.
And yet here we are. We've read the article and now we're talking about it. Like anything else, chatterers are going to chatter about whatever they think people will read because they will stop being paid to chatter if they write stuff no one wants to read. Maybe we're reaching the point of peak chatterer. At least this article had something to say, however unimportant some people find it, unlike the guy who went to the Olympics and the best idea he could come up with was to go on a gay dating app to see if athletes have sex. Not only was his article 100% pointless beyond appealing to the easily click-baitable, but it was actively harmful to some of his unlucky victims. Several were from countries significantly less accepting of gay people than his own and got outed in the process.
That's a good point. Do transactions in the marketplace of ideas clear more efficiently if we challenge the silly stuff or ignore it? It may be better to simply deprive the nonsense or actively harmful stuff of oxygen.
sweetana3
8-17-16, 11:03am
It is just that average or ordinary is not interesting. The media will always focus on the oddball of the moment. Tomorrow they will focus on something else. Seems many throw up their hands and say "what is the world coming to" and yet it is just another article about an oddball or two.
I think the point made in the article was valid, but then I've never been on the minimalist bandwagon.
I'm completely in favor, however, of maximum bang for the buck and if you find the crowds at Black Friday events tolerable or even exhilarating in view of the payoff, I say go for it. In that light, looking down on people lining up to buy Christmas presents seems pretty churlish.
I think the theory is that your pickle jar full of screws and bolts somehow snatches the food out of poor peoples' mouths. Or something. I suspect I'm willfully misunderstanding.
Since I regularly donate my excess to be sold for pennies on the dollar, I fell I'm contributing to the general largesse. I could be wrong.
That's the "live simply that others may simply live" school of thought. I agree with it, up to a point. If we have something with little current or future value to ourselves, we will typically give it to the Habitat for Humanity ReStore or the St. Vincent Depaul Society. But I'm not sure my pickle jar portfolio falls into that category. And it does pay the occasional dividend when I'm looking for a wood screw or carriage bolt.
I'm not prepared, however, to believe that knowing how many forks I own operates through a sort of efficient market hypothesis of consumption to ease the burden of Sudanese villagers.
iris lilies
8-17-16, 11:17am
And yet here we are. We've read the article and now we're talking about it. Like anything else, chatterers are going to chatter about whatever they think people will read because they will stop being paid to chatter if they write stuff no one wants to read. Maybe we're reaching the point of peak chatterer. At least this article had something to say, however unimportant some people find it, unlike the guy who went to the Olympics and the best idea he could come up with was to go on a gay dating app to see if athletes have sex. Not only was his article 100% pointless beyond appealing to the easily click-baitable, but it was actively harmful to some of his unlucky victims. Several were from countries significantly less accepting of gay people than his own and got outed in the process.
Chatterers are going to chatter. And peak chattering.
that is funny! And, ya got somethng there.
That's the "live simply that others may simply live" school of thought. I agree with it, up to a point. If we have something with little current or future value to ourselves, we will typically give it to the Habitat for Humanity ReStore or the St. Vincent Depaul Society. But I'm not sure my pickle jar portfolio falls into that category. And it does pay the occasional dividend when I'm looking for a wood screw or carriage bolt.
I'm not prepared, however, to believe that knowing how many forks I own operates through a sort of efficient market hypothesis of consumption to ease the burden of Sudanese villagers.
I've said before that "Live simply so others may simply live" resonates with me as much as "Eat your quinoa--children are starving in Chad." Maybe I'm obtuse, but I don't see the connection--unless it refers to a wholesale overturn of The Way Things Are, which doesn't have much to do with how many sets of sheets I own.
ApatheticNoMore
8-17-16, 11:26am
hmm my middle class coworkers some talk about black friday sales so no I don't think it's exclusively a poor thing. I do think more of the poor have to work that day, and if the stores open at 3 someone is working at them.
I'm not prepared, however, to believe that knowing how many forks I own operates through a sort of efficient market hypothesis of consumption to ease the burden of Sudanese villagers.
We own 24 forks, 12 regular sized and 12 salad sized. In my experience we generally use about 14 before running the dishwasher and the maximum we've ever needed is probably 18. If it will make the markets more efficient I'm happy to send 6 to Sudan. My only difficulty will be deciding what combination of large and small to send to avoid us suffering the fate of being appropriate sized clean forkless at a time of need.
My only difficulty will be deciding what combination of large and small to send to avoid us suffering the fate of being appropriate sized clean forkless at a time of need.
That sounds like an insurable risk. Better yet, we should establish a new government agency to enforce fork equity. Elizabeth Warren could be tasked to draft legislation ensuring that any CEO with a fork/mouth ratio in excess of what his workers enjoy pays a penalty tax.
I seem to be missing a number of forks. Maybe I should file a claim...
hmm my middle class coworkers some talk about black friday sales so no I don't think it's exclusively a poor thing. I do think more of the poor have to work that day, and if the stores open at 3 someone is working at them.
I think it's often a Thrill of the Hunt sort of thing in many cases. My wife and I often discuss the merits of celebrating acquiring something not really needed at a bargain price. Although the debate tends to focus on the definition of "need."
I seem to be missing a number of forks. Maybe I should file a claim...
With me it's socks. I'm generally not a conspiracy theorist, but you can't convince me something's not going on there. Some unholy alliance of government with Big Hosiery, perhaps.
I've thwarted Big Hosiery by corralling my socks in a sundries bag in the wash.
Almost as satisfying a purchase as my salad spinner. :D
I've thwarted Big Hosiery by corralling my socks in a sundries bag in the wash.
:D
That's brilliant! The public needs to hear about this sort of thing. No more free range socks. I'll add that to my list of needful things, and move on to the glove crisis.
I just hope there are no reprisals from the Forces of Darkness, Inc.
That sounds like an insurable risk. Better yet, we should establish a new government agency to enforce fork equity. Elizabeth Warren could be tasked to draft legislation ensuring that any CEO with a fork/mouth ratio in excess of what his workers enjoy pays a penalty tax.
After getting to the office this morning I have realized that I will need to file an amended fork report. I actually have an additional 4 forks here. Admittedly, they are of a lower quality than the other 24 but still have 4 tines and a handle and will thus most likely meet the government's definition of fork. Because the usage and washing regimen here is different. (I use one each day and then wash it shortly after completion of the time I am allotted for eating) three of these forks can be put towards the Sudanese fork market efficiency project.
I've said before that "Live simply so others may simply live" resonates with me as much as "Eat your quinoa--children are starving in Chad." Maybe I'm obtuse, but I don't see the connection--unless it refers to a wholesale overturn of The Way Things Are, which doesn't have much to do with how many sets of sheets I own.
To me it refers to the fact that resources are finite, so we gobble up all the arable land, fish in the sea, water and fuel, and that will be the end of that for others. At least that's how I see it.
Not to mention, if we mine all the ore, we'll run out of forks.
iris lilies
8-17-16, 2:08pm
To me it refers to the fact that resources are finite, so we gobble up all the arable land, fish in the sea, water and fuel, and that will be the end of that for others. At least that's how I see it.
Not to mention, if we mine all the ore, we'll run out of forks.
Then bae's prediction of the importance of landfills to future generations becomes true.
probably we need a federal fork database to make inroads into the excessive fork problem. you have no idea how many forks I find in city compost. Who last owned Them?How did they get into the compost, thru nefarious means? We have no idea.
ApatheticNoMore
8-17-16, 2:11pm
stick a fork in it, we're done for. What there are no forks left to even stick in anything? AHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :0! :0! :0!
I think I'll start making forks from recycled metals. Surely there's a market of people who always want the latest, trendiest fork but also want the feel goodness that comes from seeing 'made from 50% recycled content' on the box.
Personally, though, I think I'll just start using chopsticks. Wood is a renewable resource so we won't likely run out anytime soon.
stick a fork in it, we're done for. What there are no forks left to even stick in anything? AHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :0! :0! :0!
Will we be truly forked, or will that herald a return to the finger-feeding Arcadia of our happier ancestors?
Check this out! Jane and bae will love this one!
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/18/opinion/the-class-politics-of-decluttering.html?_r=1&referer=
This is another anti-minimalism article.
I'm not sure why you think I'm an anti-minimalist. I often go for weeks at a time living in the wild with nothing more than fits in a light pack. Stuff doesn't burden me, time and people do.
http://www.sevenstories.com/wp-content/uploads/2005/01/002c_th.gif
My grandfather comes from a long moonshining tradition. The family would run the back roads of Ohio and Kentucky in home-made fast cars. After Prohibition ended, this led that side of the family to become involved in building race cars, eventually driving them, and finally owning one of the finest dirt-car & dragstrip tracks in the country.
Grandpa specialized in building the fast engines and fast cars. This is good business, but he also did regular car repair, and small engine repair.
He lived in a single-wide trailer in the back woods (quite a bit past Possum Run Road, after the washed-out bridge). He kept, behind the house, dozens-to-hundreds of old automobiles that he used for parts and projects - sort of a private junkyard. The ones furthest back on the lot went back to the Model A era.
Every time the tide of cars got too close to the house and Grandma complained that "something needed to be done to clean up that clutter", Grandpa would agree, and move the house forward on the lot another 150 yards or so. Problem solved in an afternoon. He was a busy man, always projects to be done, customers to handle, grandchildren to take fishing and hunting. He didn't have time in his life to deal with clutter.
To me it refers to the fact that resources are finite, so we gobble up all the arable land, fish in the sea, water and fuel, and that will be the end of that for others. At least that's how I see it.
Not to mention, if we mine all the ore, we'll run out of forks.
I understand the quote's spirit; I just think it's meaningless--like the "poor starving kids in fill in the blank."
If you live simply with your family of several biological children, are you more environmentally virtuous than a spendthrift bachelor with no offspring? You could argue all the ins and outs of ecological awareness 'til the free-range, grass-fed cows come home. Or you could skip the pontificating and take measures to shore up the planet, of which "living simply" is arguably one. (She pontificates...:cool:)
I suggest an alternative--sporks, requiring much less raw material. Or the wooden chopsticks, but made from recycled wood! Then LDAHL'S fingers would be seen as
the more eco-appropriate choice, as long as excessive hand-washing (with its attendant chemicals and water usage) didn't result...
I understand the quote's spirit; I just think it's meaningless--like the "poor starving kids in fill in the blank."
If you live simply with your family of several biological children, are you more environmentally virtuous than a spendthrift bachelor with no offspring? You could argue all the ins and outs of ecological awareness 'til the free-range, grass-fed cows come home. Or you could skip the pontificating and take measures to shore up the planet, of which "living simply" is arguably one. (She pontificates...:cool:)
I suggest an alternative--sporks, requiring much less raw material. Or the wooden chopsticks, but made from recycled wood! Then LDAHL'S fingers would be seen as
the more eco-appropriate choice, as long as excessive hand-washing (with its attendant chemicals and water usage) didn't result...
So, can one of you math-oriented folks here figure out the lifetime carbon footprint of traditional fork vs a chopstick vs a recycled chopstick vs a spork vs LDAHL's fingers (adding in the wash and dry factor--assume cloth towels, in which case you need to calculate the cost of washing the towel--assume line dry of course).
But don't all the black friday sales start at like 3:00 am or something? Even in Upton Sinclair's The Jungle people didn't have to be at work that early. Plenty of time to get one's shopping done beforehand. And regardless, I think the author's point probably has at least some validity. Anyone willing to go deal with the crowds to get black friday deals is doing so either because they are poor or cheap. I suppose there are a few doing so because they enjoy the hustle bustle of people in a toxic culture aggressively going about their American duty to consume but I can't imagine that that's a majority.
Back when I worked retail, we had to be there before the store opened and were scheduled for 12 to 16 hours straight. No overtime because, they didn't give us hours for the rest of the week. By the way, I have a master's degree but have still spent many years in the retail world at low-paying jobs. I have no interest in black Friday sales after the poor behavior I have seen while working these events.
! Then LDAHL'S fingers would be seen as
the more eco-appropriate choice, as long as excessive hand-washing (with its attendant chemicals and water usage) didn't result...
Or we could view dysentery as a nature-based population control mechanism. Two birds.
So, can one of you math-oriented folks here figure out the lifetime carbon footprint of traditional fork vs a chopstick vs a recycled chopstick vs a spork vs LDAHL's fingers (adding in the wash and dry factor--assume cloth towels, in which case you need to calculate the cost of washing the towel--assume line dry of course).
Sounds like a job for a con$ultant, to me...:~)
Sounds like a job for a con$ultant, to me...:~)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfnzxKgagsE
Speaking of dysentery...I think I'd prefer LDAHL'S method. :thankyou:
I'm not sure why you think I'm an anti-minimalist. I often go for weeks at a time living in the wild with nothing more than fits in a light pack. Stuff doesn't burden me, time and people do.
http://www.sevenstories.com/wp-content/uploads/2005/01/002c_th.gif
My grandfather comes from a long moonshining tradition. The family would run the back roads of Ohio and Kentucky in home-made fast cars. After Prohibition ended, this led that side of the family to become involved in building race cars, eventually driving them, and finally owning one of the finest dirt-car & dragstrip tracks in the country.
Grandpa specialized in building the fast engines and fast cars. This is good business, but he also did regular car repair, and small engine repair.
He lived in a single-wide trailer in the back woods (quite a bit past Possum Run Road, after the washed-out bridge). He kept, behind the house, dozens-to-hundreds of old automobiles that he used for parts and projects - sort of a private junkyard. The ones furthest back on the lot went back to the Model A era.
Every time the tide of cars got too close to the house and Grandma complained that "something needed to be done to clean up that clutter", Grandpa would agree, and move the house forward on the lot another 150 yards or so. Problem solved in an afternoon. He was a busy man, always projects to be done, customers to handle, grandchildren to take fishing and hunting. He didn't have time in his life to deal with clutter.
Quite right. Who is anyone to judge the number of forks or yachts we own as excessive? They can't know our individual situations. I myself have survived for weeks at a time on nothing more than a manila folder full of takeout menus.
I'll bet your grandpa had one hell of a pickle jar.
Ultralight
8-17-16, 4:53pm
To me it refers to the fact that resources are finite, so we gobble up all the arable land, fish in the sea, water and fuel, and that will be the end of that for others.
Catherine:
They don't get it.
Ultralight
8-17-16, 4:56pm
I just think it's meaningless--like the "poor starving kids in fill in the blank."
You can think it is meaningless. But that does not mean that it is meaningless.
Miss Cellane
8-17-16, 5:34pm
But don't all the black friday sales start at like 3:00 am or something? Even in Upton Sinclair's The Jungle people didn't have to be at work that early. Plenty of time to get one's shopping done beforehand. And regardless, I think the author's point probably has at least some validity. Anyone willing to go deal with the crowds to get black friday deals is doing so either because they are poor or cheap. I suppose there are a few doing so because they enjoy the hustle bustle of people in a toxic culture aggressively going about their American duty to consume but I can't imagine that that's a majority.
The black Friday sales now start on Thursday evening at many stores. The support staff who put out the merchandise and signs had to be there at 5:30 am on Thanksgiving.
The years I worked retail, we opened at 8 pm on Thanksgiving day one year, and then 6 pm the following years. A typical shift was 9 or more hours, so you were lucky to be heading home sometime around 4 am. The support staff who put out the merchandise and signs had to be there at 5:30 am on Thanksgiving.
What I learned in those years of retail and temp work is that for many poor people, there are two times in the year they feel they can spend money. One is when they get their tax return--many deliberately have as much money as possible withheld, so that they will get a larger refund. They use this large cash "bonus" to buy things they otherwise could not afford.
The second time is the holidays. One, they want to give gifts to family and friends. And they want to give name brands--there is a cache to owning name brands. Two, the sales, especially the black Friday doorbusters, are the best they will be all year.
Miss Cellane
8-18-16, 12:27pm
Just stumbled across this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/#article-comments
Talks about why poor people make the decisions they do. In particular, as related to this thread, the part in the shaded area that is a first person account of why someone will "blow" five dollars on fast food or a cheap and shiny trinket--"It is not worth it to me to live a bleak life devoid of small pleasures so that one day I can make a single large purchase." That could explain the "stuff" that might accumulate in a house and why it is difficult to get rid of it.
Also check out the comments, especially the ones right on top about decision fatigue.
Talks about why poor people make the decisions they do.
In college Econ, they taught us the concept of homo economicus, and went on and on about utility/indifference curves, supply-demand curves, and so on.
They didn't dig deep enough, IMO, and point out strongly that while this may be a set of useful thinking tools, each individual, each subculture, each affinity group may have radically-different curves, and so make decisions that are perfectly rational to them given their constraints, but completely loony-looking to someone who is surfing a different set of curves.
So of course poor people buy lottery tickets and fast food, it's a perfectly good decision for them, all things considered.
Ultralight
8-18-16, 2:47pm
In particular, as related to this thread, the part in the shaded area that is a first person account of why someone will "blow" five dollars on fast food or a cheap and shiny trinket--"It is not worth it to me to live a bleak life devoid of small pleasures so that one day I can make a single large purchase." That could explain the "stuff" that might accumulate in a house and why it is difficult to get rid of it.
This presupposes that one of the main purposes of one's life is to make purchases (or one large purchase).
I think liberating oneself from the desire to make unnecessary purchases is probably a better end.
Also check out the comments, especially the ones right on top about decision fatigue.
Decision fatigue is real!
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