okay privilege

[Zoe Girl]

I know this is a hot button! But I am in the super liberal world so I am pretty comfortable with talking about it and actually excited we can have these conversations. I know a lot of other people are really bothered by this topic as well, I can understand that to some extent but a part of me doesn't always understand.

So what I see that excites me about it is that we are talking about all the subtle stuff that people who are on the receiving end know well, however other people who have a privilege/opportunity may not. I am going to use the word opportunity here I think, just because it may describe it better. My brother has basically all the areas of opportunity, financial, family, race, gender. He has talked to his kids about understanding that other people don't have the same opportunity as they may have, they may struggle in very un-seen ways, and that when you have those struggles you often work VERY hard to make sure no one knows about it. I think privilege may be a hard word for him, he is pretty conservative in all ways, but opportunity is something he can talk about.

What is hard, well it is hard to think we have things we have not worked for. We are not sure how to act, often we can get defensive if it is suggested we just got something or that our struggles are not validated. It takes a lot of work for anyone to go to college, so you get credit for that, and it is easier for some people to get there. It feels like we should have guilt, but I truly don't think it is supposed to be about guilt or shame in any way. What really helped me around the issue of race was first of all living and working in more racially diverse areas and realizing when I made assumptions. I cringe when I think of my first year in the urban school district. However the more I learned about how the history of systems set things up I took it less personally. So an example is learning about red-lining in the housing/mortgage industry. How only certain very poor quality mortgages were offered in traditionally black neighborhoods so people were more likely to lose their homes or not build equity. It is not whether or not I like people of different races, or even if I made an assumption that was horrible, but there were real systems that created problems.

Meanwhile I feel like weight is being lifted by simply talking about these things. And I know I will probably still make assumptions, say stupid things, get frustrated about hearing so much about privilege at times. That is part of the process for all of us. But to live in a time when I can get talked over or interrupted and then have a man catch himself, wow, totally worth it. To have my brother talk to his kids a little about opportunity. To think my daughters can get paid equally in a lot of jobs. To think my son may be the stay at home parent, not a dad babysitting his kids. Thank you to everyone willing to even think about it,

(now I will ponder if I should have posted this, too late)

[Gardenarian]

Where does disability fall in the whole privilege scheme?

[Zoe Girl]

That is included in the information and practices I have worked with. I had a privilege exercise I did in a group that included a section on disability, and mental illness was included. I looked at one exercise that was designed for college students that had size related questions, can you sit in a regular seat, that could be disability related as well. One set of questions included if you could talk about your illness openly (mental illness), did you have access to places, and did people question your ability to do your job because of a disability. Since I have a hidden illness I liked that set of questions.

[peggy]

I don't really see size as a privilege type thing. What I mean is, a very large person shouldn't 'expect' the airline to be able to accommodate them every time, nor should the passenger sitting next to them. If I paid for my seat, I expect to get the whole seat.
However, the savvy airline, if they want the business, will have accommodations for these passengers. Same for chairs/benches, whatever at businesses.

I think the pharmacist who doesn't want to dispense certain drugs because of their religion shouldn't get a special privilege to do so. Their job is to dispense what the doctor ordered and not to force others to practice their religion.
Nor do I think the airline stewardess should be able to refuse to serve alcohol because of her religion. Serving is in her job description. Now, the airline may or may not accommodate her, but she shouldn't expect it. Expecting it would be privilege.

I too am enjoying this discussion. It really makes me think about stuff I wouldn't normally think about.

[Tammy]

I graduated from college at age 35, taking 6 years to get s 4 year degree, commuting an hour each way, while raising 3 kids in the preschool through grade 5 range. Not easy.

In spite of that - on graduation day I felt my privilege. My dad and my government paid for about 3/4 of my education. My husband supported us through those years. I only had $10,000 borrowed total. I could not have done it without all those people helping me.

I came away from graduation believing that it is now my turn to give back to others for the rest of my career.

There was no guilt or shame. There was a sense of gratitude for what I had been given. And a sense of responsibility to lift others up in the future.

I've never understood why the same attitude can't be applied to white privilege, male privilege, and all the other types of privilege.

None of us get where we are on our own.

[bae]

I think part of the issue with the "privilege" discussion is that when you are discussing structural problems in society with folks, some take it as a personally-directed criticism, and think you are calling them out individually, or asking that they feel guilt, then defensiveness sets in and communication ceases.

We each live within a maze of twisty turny privileges and disadvantages, with odd intersections. Deal with it :-)

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think part of the issue with the "privilege" discussion is that when you are discussing structural problems in society, they take it as a personally-directed criticism, and think you are calling them out individually, or asking that they feel guilt, then defensiveness sets in and communication ceases.

yea it's really not helpful. I don't find the discussions of privilege useful in general, what are they anyway just some way of brandishing liberal credentials? Meh, I'm liberal enuf thanks. No I don't have to vote for a corrupt woman or a drone bombing black president to prove it. I agree that learning about redlining and so on might be useful but that's more concrete than some universal privilege, that's mostly understanding.

I'm not even sure what the end goal is, just a bunch of talk (talk is cheap and doesn't necessarily actually change much of anything), or to get more white people marching in BLM protests or something? (that would be interesting, I think it's hard to get people to protest in issues they don't see as much affecting them most of the time, or even then).

Guilt is a mostly useless article of a guilt-ridden society, and I don't even agree with that (so that everything gets transmuted to guilt, responsibility in the psychological sense becomes guilt, structural problems become guilt, of course failure becomes guilt etc.). It also might be a way of calling someone "fortunate" or "lucky" but people are not necessarily fortunate or lucky in any grand sense, a white guy might not experience being pulled over for driving while black, but if while growing up his dad regularly came home drunk and beat him with a two by four, no universal "lucky" can be derived from that, period. But he still may not experience what blacks do with the cops.

[LDAHL]

We each live within a maze of twisty turny privileges and disadvantages, with odd intersections. Deal with it :-)

Which makes the best unit for discussing fairness or obligation one human at a time.

[bae]

Which makes the best unit for discussing fairness or obligation one human at a time.

Even here where I live, in the most liberal county in the liberal state of Washington, there are neighborhoods where if I walk down the street at night with a small backpack and hold out my thumb, cars will stop and give me a ride, even if the driver doesn't know me. If I did the same and my skin were darker, odds are that I wouldn't get a ride and 911 would be called about the suspicious black male. Without the driver knowing anything at all a priori about my individual characteristics as a human, other than my skin color.

I think it's reasonable to discuss that as a problem affecting groups rather than one person at a time, especially if you want to delve into the forces responsible for it.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I do wonder how many women of any race would hitchhike, period. Of course the fear there wouldn't be of being seen as perps but all too easy victims.

[Zoe Girl]

How it is useful in my work is that we look around and work at giving value to people who are not traditionally valued. So there is an encouragement to hire employees to work with kids who may need training but are from the neighborhoods we serve. It is very different than Teach for America that imports good-hearted young college grads to work in urban education with a 17% retention rate. The staff we develop from within the community stay, and learn and really make a difference. However I could easily see them being shut out of education because of language patterns and dress and even color. I am very picky about spoken language, but as a hiring manager I have the choice to be aware of that when I make choices.

[peggy]

Even here where I live, in the most liberal county in the liberal state of Washington, there are neighborhoods where if I walk down the street at night with a small backpack and hold out my thumb, cars will stop and give me a ride, even if the driver doesn't know me. If I did the same and my skin were darker, odds are that I wouldn't get a ride and 911 would be called about the suspicious black male. Without the driver knowing anything at all a priori about my individual characteristics as a human, other than my skin color.

I think it's reasonable to discuss that as a problem affecting groups rather than one person at a time, especially if you want to delve into the forces responsible for it.

I think where privilege comes into play here is not that you know you will get a ride, but that you 'know' no one will call the cops on you, or even the notion that someone would call the cops on you would never enter your mind. I think that's kind of the difference. And I think acknowledging that fact isn't a criticism of you nor is it asking you to admit some kind of guilt. It is a criticism of our society, but not necessarily we individuals who exists in this moment in our society. But by acknowledging it, and seeing it for what it is, maybe we can turn this around. Isn't that how the old saying goes, the first step is admitting there is a problem.
We need these discussions of privilege without people getting defensive. White privilege exists. It absolutely does. And talking about it makes me open my eyes more and I see it all around us in so many ways large and small.
Privilege is so culturally ingrained, it's really hard for me to feel guilty about it. But I am glad I am more aware of it, so I can work very hard to not perpetuate it.

[peggy]

Just wanted to add, religious privilege is also rampant. And these seem to be the ones who are the most shocked by the fingers pointed at them. To be truthful, religion, especially Christian, have enjoyed way too much privilege in this supposedly secular nation. Look at how our 'secular' government, most especially republican (ok, I really didn't want to point fingers but it is what it is...show me liberals who have all this faux outrage) are reacting. Christians have enjoyed such privilege that republicans OPENLY run on platforms of getting prayer back in school, before government meetings, teaching creationism in school, just to name a few things. They OPENLY run on allowing religious exemption to businesses, and vilify any official who gives even a hint they wouldn't take the oath of office on a bible.
Donald Trump has promised that (when) he is President, people WILL say Merry Christmas...!Splat!

[Zoe Girl]

I heard that the Satanic church is now trying to host after school programs in the schools that are putting in the Christian religious clubs. I kinda love that, they are not doing anything at other schools so it is only a reaction to the other religious clubs.

The religion thing has had me really bothered the last 6 months. I have always seen the benefits of other religions and thought we had more in common than not, but now I find myself gritting my teeth when I pass by churches. I am not Christian and don't live in a Christian majority neighborhood. So should I go to the Starbucks near my house and expect the Muslim employees to say Merry Christmas. I just feel that as some Christian churches are more aware that they are not the only game in town they are going to keep up the backlash big time. So far it is annoying but not affecting my life directly, I am keeping my eye on it however.

[catherine]

Donald Trump has promised that (when) he is President, people WILL say Merry Christmas...!Splat!

I don't think saying Merry Christmas has been outlawed. I think it's a regional issue that has to be handled on a regional basis. Here in New Jersey, if you threw out a Merry Christmas, chances are that person does not celebrate Christmas. We have neutralized some holidays on school calendars (well, actually only the Christian ones. Schools are off on Yom Kippur, but Easter is "Spring Break"). We had some friends who were formerly from the South and they lived in NJ for a couple of years, but returned to Georgia, and the one thing I remember my friend saying about the return was "it's so nice to be able to say Merry Christmas again."

But I would agree that there's a nostalgia about the "good old days" among Christians who think back fondly about when no one complained about nativities in public spaces.

[peggy]

You know Catherine, most people didn't have a problem with calling it Christmas break, or the nativity on the public square, or most outward displays of someone's (or societies) Christianity. Sure, some felt excluded, but most accepted it as the prevailing religion in the country so they went along to get along. Religion, for the most part, was benign, gentle and quiet. And well behaved.

However, and I guess you could blame Jerry Falwell or whoever, religion decided to flex it's political muscle. They weren't happy with just preaching to their flock in church. They wanted the whole country to tow the Christian line. I think it probably started when women started questioning their lesser, submissive role in society (work, choice, etc) and decided that they were in fact equal citizens in America and that business/laws should reflect that.
As the so called moral majority (they were neither moral or the majority) gained in power, the right recognized this large and easily manipulated (my opinion, OK?) segment, and adopted them, and their agenda. Of course, there is really nothing 'Christian' about the republican agenda, in fact, if you examine it, it is really anti Christ, but the desire to control women plus a few amens and they had a constituency.

This is where society, largely, decided to part ways with 'the church'. This is the push back you see. And religion, Christian religion, is pushing back just as hard. Suddenly they see their privilege that they have enjoyed since the beginning of this nation, crumble. The Kim Davis and phony bakers types who would have been accommodated just a few decades ago are feeling the pain of push back from the power grab. If only they had stayed quiet and in their homes and churches, there wouldn't have been a question.
This is what happens when they tried to make this secular nation a theocracy. And they are still trying, with prayer in schools, teaching creationism, denying equality to gay/trans-gendered people, etc.