impact of poor management

[Zoe Girl]

I just heard a few more stories this week and emphasizes the poor management we have had for awhile. And I am not sure how to handle one thing.

There are 2 women who are great friends outside of work as well as work together on my team. We have our own sites but see each other at meetings and training and in other places. I knew that they had been told their friendship was too much at some point but I didn't realize how badly they had been treated. It turns out that when several years ago our shopping for programs was with one shopping person, we all met at WalMart on specific days for example, they were told they could not go on the same day. They also were not supposed to sit together in meetings or pair up for committees and projects. I have no idea who complained about their friendship or if it was just supervisors deciding it was a problem but I feel that was a terrible way to treat them. I didn't see anything that was an actual problem, they didn't talk in meetings about innapropriate topics or leave people out. There were sometimes when I did feel a little left out because they were so close but I never said anything, it wasn't an actual problem. As I understand they were told that other people had an issue with them and therefore the restrictions.

I have worked with them both for 6 years, one started off working for me. Now I wonder how comfortable they must feel, NOT, with all of the team if they were told that someone complained about them. It is hard to come to meetings and training wondering. I almost want to tell them that I didn't, and I don't have a problem with either of them. One of the last big meetings one went out of her way to make sure the food was something I could eat as a vegetarian even. Since it was a few years ago I am just thinking about reaching out friendly more often. I felt they didn't like me, but it makes sense if they didn't know if I complained.

Other than that our management has a hard time understanding what a peer can say to a peer and what needs to come from a supervisor. I talked to my one trusted work friend and we have had the same issue, the supervisors want us to talk to our peers directly about things that really would cause problems rather than handle it themselves. I am pretty disappointed, well I am regularly disappointed that they do not have or recognize these skills. Simple things like you can have a conversation with someone you supervise, gently, over things that are not full issues long before you have an issue. You can build teams by taking a strong hand but still be very caring. There is a reason that staff request to work with me at our camps. Because our school start date was delayed 3 weeks my staff and I subbed at a total of 6 sites, so I got a good view of what other programs are like and I feel even better about the work I am doing. And as we have discussed before, managers generally are not the people best suited to the job.

[herbgeek]

ars ago our shopping for programs was with one shopping person, we all met at WalMart on specific days for example, they were told they could not go on the same day. They also were not supposed to sit together in meetings or pair up for committees and projects.

I can't imagine working in a place where I was treated like I was 8 years old. Wow. How awful.


, the supervisors want us to talk to our peers directly about things that really would cause problems rather than handle it themselves

I guess I don't see the problem in this. If I have a problem with something you're doing, wouldn't it make sense for me to mention something directly to you? If I went to your boss first instead, the issue now has a gravity that it might not deserve, and now a manager is aware of something they really didn't need to be. Expecting folks with disagreements to actually talk to each other and work it out would be expecting adults to act like adults, and doesn't mesh with the first story of keeping friends from working together. Sounds like a pretty messed up place.

[razz]

Not to be contrary ZG, but is this not a common problem in almost any work situation? How many places have great management? Really?
You have the skills to see and understand this but how many others do? How have others handled similar dysfunctional management situations?

I have seen or heard where close friendships do interfere with the priority of the organization as the loyalty/commitment to the situation being dealt with is split. Do you agree with a manager that is trying hard to do what is right or agree with a friend that you have to deal with after work. It is an boundary issue, IMHO anyway. I wouldn't interfere with the boundary set but try to re-define a boundary for perceived conflicting loyalties.

[iris lilies]

I can't imagine working in a place where I was treated like I was 8 years old. Wow. How awful.



I guess I don't see the problem in this. If I have a problem with something you're doing, wouldn't it make sense for me to mention something directly to you? If I went to your boss first instead, the issue now has a gravity that it might not deserve, and now a manager is aware of something they really didn't need to be. Expecting folks with disagreements to actually talk to each other and work it out would be expecting adults to act like adults, and doesn't mesh with the first story of keeping friends from working together. Sounds like a pretty messed up place.

It depends. Certainly peer to peer discussions are healthy, and when people can work out problems at the lowest level possible without kicking them up, it is good for all.

But sometimes peer #1 wants peer #2 to do a specific thing that isnt in peer #2's range of authority. If Peer #2 is not supposed to make a change in procedure or etc without the approval of her supervisor, that's when supervisors of peers need to get involved.

I have worked through a few of these situations where my employee thought "Iris does not want me to talk to other employees about problems" when Iris in fact didnt want employees from outside departments determining procedures within her own department. And, I especially wished to know about issues that affected those outside departments; if two peer subordinates "solved" the problem, I might never hear about it and the solution may not be one I supported.


I cant tell what ZG means, so will withhold opinion.

The business about women being told they are too friendly is laughable, and I guarantee this doesnt happen in a workplace where there are healthy doses of testosterone. But
I would also like to know the specifics of these instances since ZG is operating on second hand knowledge in a context of high emotion in these "stories."

[Zoe Girl]

Yes, it is in every workplace I think. I just don't like to talk around the department much so I share more here than with co-workers. I guess as a manager I expect people to start conversations if they have issues, I tend to have good teams that way. In our summer camp meetings I asked how people felt most comfortable talking to each other so that everyone understood each other a little. And we all got a chance to share a pet peeve (mine is pens without caps) as a get to know you process, as well as what we got most excited about doing in our jobs. But I also respect if a staff does not feel comfortable addressing a coworker. I ask them what they have done so far, give some advice but am willing to be the manager and have a conversation if needed. Minimum it is my job to help them talk directly. However I work with a lot of young people so that may be part of my perspective. I am teaching them as much as they are teaching the kids at times.

I am not sure I understand totally what you are getting at Razz, but I will try. I can see an issue if outside of work people are getting together in a way that disrupts the work. Things like making up their mind about work projects rather than coming with an open mind or willing to work together. These 2 women had kids who played together and they went on vacations together so basically they talked before meetings about their personal lives. I can't imagine how shopping on the same day affects anything, I shopped with them and didn't see anything questionable, they didn't talk bad about people or make secret alliances. I also know this supervisor just seemed to have issues with people being friends. She moved staff around sites to break up friendships rather than addressing the issues or even seeing if there were issues. She did that at some sites that I managed, i just was told we were going to site A and telling a staff they had to move to site B without talking to me about what was happening as the manager of those sites. When the staff got upset she told me to not let them talk to each other.

How do others handle this? I am not sure but we do large scale internal surveys in each department and the district overall. The supervisor level got a huge wake up call, in my peer group we gave them honest surveys and it showed there was not trust, we did not have the tools and support we needed to get our jobs done, and that we did not feel our supervisors had faith in us. The score for my supervisor on 'she trusts me' was about 35%. What I find in that dysfunctional of an environment we need to talk to each other outside of work for sanity!

[iris lilies]

I have seen or heard where close friendships do interfere with the priority of the organization as the loyalty/commitment to the situation being dealt with is split.

sure, but you deal with the incident where the employee made the bad decision that failed to support the priority of the organization. You (the generic you) dont say "you two are too close as friends, cut it out." That is silly, at least in the environment ZG works in, its not the CIA where loyalties are paramount.

But we don't really know what management told the two friends. Employees hear what they want to hear, torque the message however they want, and and repeat it to their advantage. ZG is operating on heresay, and it is also unclear to me what is the problem for her to "handle."

[Zoe Girl]

IL, yes I need to take this all with a grain of salt. What was clear and not muddled however was they were not allowed to attend the same shopping trips. I was on those shopping trips and in all the same meetings with these women for 5 years so I just am baffled. Maybe it is good that I have 2 work friends and we don't display it at work but it is really sad and lonely at times.

In our work we share so much, what we are doing in our programs, how our staff is doing, what things work well. The northwest Denver area I have learned it is a very small town. My summer staff was related to the facilities managers, the families we serve, and each other! We had to juggle around so family relations were not working at the same site over summer. So many people I work with graduated from the same school district we work in, went to school with each other or same schools different years. Staff start working in our programs in high school, graduate and work for us more, work their way up. It is not like other organizations and companies, if you wanted to separate everyone who knows each other outside of work we wouldn't have a work force!

[JaneV2.0]

Iris Lily's testosterone line made me laugh. So much drama!
I've worked in all-female and all-male (except for me) work environments, and there's definitely a difference.
I've also worked in integrated crews that were a good mix of people. Those are the best, I think.

[ToomuchStuff]

The business about women being told they are too friendly is laughable, and I guarantee this doesnt happen in a workplace where there are healthy doses of testosterone. But
I would also like to know the specifics of these instances since ZG is operating on second hand knowledge in a context of high emotion in these "stories."

I certainly don't understand ZG posts all the time (seem emotional and rambling on). Reading her thread made me think from they were spending time together, and when they did their work stuff took longer then it should have, to being too friendly as fraternization at work, where someone might think there was something going on (and possible sexual harassment issues later).

[Tybee]

I wondered about sexual harassment, too, as in management trying to protect against those claims in future. If two dating people were spending gobs of time together at work and excluding others, then would they be considered a threat to organization, or what about nepotism policies. That thought crossed my mind, too.

[Reyes]

ZG, were you present when management told the two staff members that they could not attend meetings, go shopping, etc. together? Is it possible that when shopping together they took far longer than need be to get the job done and management is simply wanting efficiency?

[Zoe Girl]

No I wasn't there for the conversations, so I probably should drop all this honestly. The take away part is that I am not going to be making a lot of deeper friendships at work, and that going around to other schools and observing my own management style means that I feel pretty good about my work.