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LDAHL
9-14-16, 3:09pm
I understand Edward Snowden is lobbying for a presidential pardon. He feels he performed a public service that far outweighed the small matter of breaking his oath and committing treason. I personally think that if he can't rot in an American cell then Putin's Russia is the next best thing.

iris lilies
9-14-16, 4:36pm
My gut reaction is that I am content with the status quo, let him stay with the Ruskies. I do not imagine he has a luxurious life there, or at least he wont as time marches on and he moves out of the media spotlight. He is a young guy and has many years fo learn Russian.

Tybee
9-14-16, 4:46pm
Like Ron Paul, I believe ES should be pardoned.

LDAHL
9-14-16, 5:08pm
I kind of like the White House response. If he wants to play the civil disobedience hero, he should come home and face the consequences.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden

Tybee
9-14-16, 5:30pm
To me, he is a hero hero, not a civil disobedience hero. Protecting our freedom. YMMV.

LDAHL
9-15-16, 10:50am
To me, he is a hero hero, not a civil disobedience hero. Protecting our freedom. YMMV.

I see the New York Times agrees with you. Personally, I think betraying your oath and your country should carry a harsher sentence than a book tour. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but defecting to a hostile country with 1.7 million classified documents seems like something we'd want to discourage.

jp1
9-15-16, 11:17am
Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but defecting to a hostile country with 1.7 million classified documents seems like something we'd want to discourage.

I guess I'm old fashioned too. i'd prefer that the government actually respect the fourth amendment as something more than just suggestive of how they should behave, and not create millions upon millions of classified documents from information gathered by spying on citizens. If they hadn't created all that crap there would've been nothing for him to steal.

LDAHL
9-15-16, 11:40am
I guess I'm old fashioned too. i'd prefer that the government actually respect the fourth amendment as something more than just suggestive of how they should behave, and not create millions upon millions of classified documents from information gathered by spying on citizens. If they hadn't created all that crap there would've been nothing for him to steal.

The problem is that he didn't limit his "whistle blowing" to the NSA domestic program. He went through China and Russia exposing US intelligence sources and methods all over the world.

jp1
9-15-16, 11:45am
Fair enough. I'll agree that Snowden should go on trial as long as the people who created the NSA's domestic spying program also go on trial at the same time.

LDAHL
9-15-16, 12:12pm
Fair enough. I'll agree that Snowden should go on trial as long as the people who created the NSA's domestic spying program also go on trial at the same time.

Would that include our last couple of commanders-in-chief?

I'm no great fan of domestic surveillance, but whether what the NSA did or what Snowden did was illegal are two separate legal issues. Of the two, Snowden's crimes seem less ambiguous. He felt his own narcissistic self-righteousness outweighed his obligation to protect the safety of intelligence assets in the field. Pardoning him would be a second betrayal of those people.

ToomuchStuff
9-15-16, 12:54pm
I have so many mixed emotions about this. Whenever I think of the NSA, the SS also come to mind, as well as the KGB, and who will watch the watchers? (secret police) I understand the benefit, as well as the detriment they (both the NSA and Snowden), present, and wonder how much is the typical, swing to one extreme and then the other, thing.
Generally, the police are typically behind the criminals, and play react. Part of the NSA's job is to be active, and not reactive, as governments have always spied on their populations. Now, with technology what it is, it is easier and they can spy on more at once.

jp1
9-15-16, 1:01pm
I have so many mixed emotions about this. Whenever I think of the NSA, the SS also come to mind, as well as the KGB, and who will watch the watchers? (secret police) I understand the benefit, as well as the detriment they (both the NSA and Snowden), present, and wonder how much is the typical, swing to one extreme and then the other, thing.
Generally, the police are typically behind the criminals, and play react. Part of the NSA's job is to be active, and not reactive, as governments have always spied on their populations. Now, with technology what it is, it is easier and they can spy on more at once.

Indeed. Just look at the recently revealed panopticon program in Baltimore. Coming soon to your neighborhood.

jp1
9-15-16, 1:04pm
Would that include our last couple of commanders-in-chief?



Absolutely. And whatever senators and representatives on the intelligence committees knew and approved of the program. But of course thanks to Gerald Ford's precedent no president will ever be held legally responsible for anything they do.

LDAHL
9-15-16, 4:35pm
I have so many mixed emotions about this. Whenever I think of the NSA, the SS also come to mind, as well as the KGB, and who will watch the watchers? (secret police) I understand the benefit, as well as the detriment they (both the NSA and Snowden), present, and wonder how much is the typical, swing to one extreme and then the other, thing.
Generally, the police are typically behind the criminals, and play react. Part of the NSA's job is to be active, and not reactive, as governments have always spied on their populations. Now, with technology what it is, it is easier and they can spy on more at once.

“To say that the CIA and the KGB engage in similar practices is the equivalent of saying that the man who pushes an old lady into the path of a hurtling bus is not to be distinguished from the man who pushes an old lady out of the path of a hurtling bus: on the grounds that, after all, in both cases someone is pushing old ladies around.”
- William F. Buckley

jp1
9-15-16, 4:46pm
I'm curious what qualifications William Buckley has to make that assertion.

LDAHL
9-15-16, 4:52pm
I'm curious what qualifications William Buckley has to make that assertion.

He served in the CIA. However to my knowledge, he never pushed old ladies around.

Tybee
9-15-16, 5:43pm
Snowden's case reminds me of this quotation:
""When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

I think he was fighting against tyranny, and yes, there are several ways to look at his actions. But I think he thought he was fighting against tyranny.

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-16, 8:05pm
My gut reaction is that I am content with the status quo, let him stay with the Ruskies. I do not imagine he has a luxurious life there, or at least he wont as time marches on and he moves out of the media spotlight. He is a young guy and has many years fo learn Russian.IL, I have read online that Snowden is actually not doing so bad in Russia.....apparently the man is cashing in on his name/notoriety/fame and is making money doing the public speaking thing via high tech from an undisclosed location in Russia. I say more power to him for finding a way to cash in! Rob

gimmethesimplelife
9-15-16, 8:11pm
I understand Edward Snowden is lobbying for a presidential pardon. He feels he performed a public service that far outweighed the small matter of breaking his oath and committing treason. I personally think that if he can't rot in an American cell then Putin's Russia is the next best thing.My take? Snowden did not committ treason given the deplorable depth of the US government's spying on it's citizens. He is a hero in my book for bringing to light the extent of this spying and should be revered for his bravery and self sacrifice. Personally, I believe that not only does he deserve a pardon, a public apology from the US goverment towards all US citizens is in order due to the extent of this spying, and an apology from the US government to Snowden is in order for forcing him to disrupt his life by fleeing the country as a cost of doing the right thing. The Obama Adminstration really blew it on this one in my book, though I also believe a Romney adminstration would have handled this matter even worse. But this is one issue that took place on Obama's watch where I am less than pleased with his and his administration's actions. Rob

jp1
9-15-16, 9:28pm
IL, I have read online that Snowden is actually not doing so bad in Russia.....apparently the man is cashing in on his name/notoriety/fame and is making money doing the public speaking thing via high tech from an undisclosed location in Russia. I say more power to him for finding a way to cash in! Rob

I'll just be happy if his work encourages tech companies to continue to find better and easier ways to secure data. Regardless of whether the interlopers are "good" guys like the US government, or "bad" guys like Russian and CHinese hackers looking to steal credit card numbers and corporate trade secrets, the insecurity of a backdoor into data is bad for all of us. Thankfully the clipper chip never came to pass (supposedly at least) but the government won't give up easily on the idea of forcing tech manufacturers and purchasers to give up their security in the name of security.

LDAHL
9-16-16, 8:21am
IL, I have read online that Snowden is actually not doing so bad in Russia.....apparently the man is cashing in on his name/notoriety/fame and is making money doing the public speaking thing via high tech from an undisclosed location in Russia. I say more power to him for finding a way to cash in! Rob

He wouldn't be the first to sell out his country.

Rogar
9-16-16, 10:21am
He's probably in hacker heaven in Russia. I say a deal should be negotiated for lesser charges to give him a little prison time with an early pardon, a long probation period, and some public service like we do for most criminals. Save the costs of an expensive court trial and bring him back where we can keep an eye on him.

gimmethesimplelife
9-16-16, 11:49am
He wouldn't be the first to sell out his country.I don't see Snowden's actions as selling out his country. Definitely the United States drew first blood here and Snowden is that rare brave soul willing to do the right thing no matter the consequences. It is just and right for him to cash in via public speaking. I'm still waiting for America to man up as it were and pardon and apologize to both Snowden and the American public. A token cash settlement for each and every US citizen would be a decent gesture (I realize that in America this will never happen) as an apology for this level of spying on the masses. Maybe someday far down the road Snowden's face could appear on US coins, stamps, and cash as a US hero? Rob

LDAHL
9-16-16, 12:16pm
I don't see Snowden's actions as selling out his country. Definitely the United States drew first blood here and Snowden is that rare brave soul willing to do the right thing no matter the consequences. It is just and right for him to cash in via public speaking. I'm still waiting for America to man up as it were and pardon and apologize to both Snowden and the American public. A token cash settlement for each and every US citizen would be a decent gesture (I realize that in America this will never happen) as an apology for this level of spying on the masses. Maybe someday far down the road Snowden's face could appear on US coins, stamps, and cash as a US hero? Rob

Troops in the field, intelligence assets and potential terrorist targets were all put at greater risk due to Mr. Snowden's treachery. I would consider it more appropriate for his face to appear on bathroom tissue than on US currency.

iris lilies
9-16-16, 12:22pm
I don't see Snowden's actions as selling out his country. Definitely the United States drew first blood here and Snowden is that rare brave soul willing to do the right thing no matter the consequences. It is just and right for him to cash in via public speaking. I'm still waiting for America to man up as it were and pardon and apologize to both Snowden and the American public. A token cash settlement for each and every US citizen would be a decent gesture (I realize that in America this will never happen) as an apology for this level of spying on the masses. Maybe someday far down the road Snowden's face could appear on US coins, stamps, and cash as a US hero? Rob
You mean Obama should take my money, money that he grabs From me eqch April, and send it back to me as some sort of apology? Haha that is rich. Nope.

why dont we just pretend he made that pointless exchange and call it "done."

Snowden exposed important gubmnt activity, Snowden sold out his countrymen. He did both things. Good, Bad. He belongs in Russia, his star will fade there and unless he has extraordinary juice, I think he will live to,p regret being there.

jp1
9-16-16, 12:59pm
Troops in the field, intelligence assets and potential terrorist targets were all put at greater risk due to Mr. Snowden's treachery. I would consider it more appropriate for his face to appear on bathroom tissue than on US currency.

Alongside the people who outed Valerie Plame?

LDAHL
9-16-16, 1:35pm
Alongside the people who outed Valerie Plame?

Yes.

Alan
9-16-16, 1:37pm
I can't think of anyone who was pardoned after fleeing the country, well, other than Carter's blanket pardon of Vietnam War draft dodgers and Bill Clinton's pardon of Mark Rich, a huge Democratic Party donor.


A token cash settlement for each and every US citizen would be a decent gesture...
Rob, you've yet to grasp the concept that in order for the government to give someone money, they must first take it from someone else. If you really want to do something meaningful, ask the Feds to limit their expenditures to their income. That would be a really nice gesture.

Rogar
9-16-16, 2:52pm
Then there was Ford's pardon of Nixon. Although he didn't flee the country, he was a crook and a disgrace to the office.

Tybee
9-16-16, 5:28pm
Or the six Iran Contra figures that Bush pardoned on Christmas Day, 1992. . .

ToomuchStuff
9-23-16, 10:16am
An article I found of interest today, and it makes me wonder how will we see this, that far into the future:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-battle-midway-japan-war-code-tribune-roosevelt-edit-0924-md-20160922-story.html

Gregg
9-24-16, 11:05am
Just for the record, presidential pardons (http://www.infoplease.com/us/government/presidential-pardons-1789-present.html) aren't really that special (unless you're getting one). Clinton pardoned Mark Rich and 455 others. Reagan was right there at 406 total. GHW Bush was pretty 'conservative' pardoning only 77. Mr. Obama, to date, has only pardoned 64, but that last day in office is still ahead of him. FDR took the grand prize with 3,687 pardons. In case you're wondering, George Washington pardoned 16 and two presidents, William H. Harrison and James Garfield were the hardliners with zero. Gotta love history.

Lainey
9-24-16, 11:31am
An article I found of interest today, and it makes me wonder how will we see this, that far into the future:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-battle-midway-japan-war-code-tribune-roosevelt-edit-0924-md-20160922-story.html

Good article, thanks for posting.