Thoughts on social work philosophy regarding family

[Ultralight]

In one of my social work classes the Prof was talking about how in most states, for a single pregnant woman to get her benefits (healthcare, free food, paychecks, etc.), she needs to disclose to a social worker any info she has on paternity so that the father can be notified and so she can harvest child support payments from him.

What I gathered from the Prof is that the social work philosophy runs counter to the above policies.
The social work philosophy, from what I gathered looks more like this:

-The woman should not have to disclose any paternity info if she does not want to (the assumption is that the father is dangerous or unneeded or both)
-The woman should not have a legal obligation to seek child support from the father
-The woman should get any and all benefits she wants/needs
-The father has no right to know that he is a father or to be involved in the life of the child unless the mother so chooses to let him
-There was an interesting turn of phrase in her discussion too, she said: "Women need these benefits (welfare, etc.) so they can take care of their kids." But what I found interesting is that it is really, in large part, the state taking care of the kids with some facilitation from the mom (state buys the food but mom cooks it and puts it on a plate, etc.).

I am mulling this over, so I am not entirely sure what I think. I think that kids need to be taken care of -- that is my bottom line. But I am not sure if this philosophy as it stands is all that helpful in a comprehensive or effective way.

Thoughts?

[iris lilies]

In one of my social work classes the Prof was talking about how in most states, for a single pregnant woman to get her benefits (healthcare, free food, paychecks, etc.), she needs to disclose to a social worker any info she has on paternity so that the father can be notified and so she can harvest child support payments from him.

What I gathered from the Prof is that the social work philosophy runs counter to the above policies.
The social work philosophy, from what I gathered looks more like this:

-The woman should not have to disclose any paternity info if she does not want to (the assumption is that the father is dangerous or unneeded or both)
-The woman should not have a legal obligation to seek child support from the father
-The woman should get any and all benefits she wants/needs
-The father has no right to know that he is a father or to be involved in the life of the child unless the mother so chooses to let him
-There was an interesting turn of phrase in her discussion too, she said: "Women need these benefits (welfare, etc.) so they can take care of their kids." But what I found interesting is that it is really, in large part, the state taking care of the kids with some facilitation from the mom (state buys the food but mom cooks it and puts it on a plate, etc.).

I am mulling this over, so I am not entirely sure what I think. I think that kids need to be taken care of -- that is my bottom line. But I am not sure if this philosophy as it stands is all that helpful in a comprehensive or effective way.

Thoughts?
Yes, dude. This is why I dont have a lot of respect for social work. Its about giving to people all the stuff, with zero regard to who funds the stuff.

I dont know that your assessment sbout fathers is correct. Surely there is recognition, even in the land of social work, of the primacy of father/child relationships.

[Ultralight]

I dont know that your assessment sbout fathers is correct. Surely there is recognition, even in the land of social work, of the primacy of father/child relationships.

Well, there is, but it seems only in theory. Like in my human development class the book has info about that and the Prof will echo much of what is in the book. She talks about her sons often, but never mentions their father(s?) and she is unmarried.

But in philosophy and practice it really seems as though fathers are considered less-than or even extraneous. I am not sure what I think of this.


Would you be happier if you were publicly recognized in some way for your contributions to the social welfare system?

[Zoe Girl]

I struggle with the paternity thing. In some cases to try and keep the father involved may bring up issues of safety. I know we had grandparents raising many children and when the parents were found and ordered to pay child support the dad lost it and became a real danger. However dads do have rights and should know if they have children that were not sperm donation banks. It is very reasonable for the state to seek out child support directly from the parents instead of just footing the bill. I see parents of both genders being sought out for child support more which is encouraging. And there are a lot of checks and balances in the state childcare assistance program, working towards easing families off of it and able to pay full price childcare. The one thing I will say is when you point out that it is in cooperation with the parent. I see school issues and the parents cannot just drop off the kid with a problem or expect free lunch. They need to often get counseling, come to school more often, meet with a variety of supports, fill out loads of paperwork, etc. It is work for everyone.

The world of working in social work and other things like education has a lot of competing values. And in the moment and in individual cases it is even murkier. I know I have had a few times I have been taken advantage of but the vast majority of the time I feel good about what I have done to support. My best buddy for equity issues just left our school, she was the ELA teacher for years and had good connections when I needed to understand why a certain event did not have any Hispanic families attending for example. Before she left we talked about the newer gentrified families coming in and the kinda snooty attitudes about what other families feed their kids, and then she brought up that it wasn't that simple. Maybe the families who sent kids with a bag of sugar for snack should be discouraged from doing that and it was not culturally insensitive to work with this. So this is messy business UA, hate to say it, but a couple families who want a boost and get everything going successfully are worth it.

[Ultralight]

I find it interesting that the assumption is not that the father will be a good guy, but that he is dangerous. Seems prejudice.

[Zoe Girl]

The most dangerous time in a woman's life, most likely to be killed, is while she is pregnant. So if she is not currently with the father, implying that he is safer, it must be considered. We just had some political debate or something in Oregon (sorry just skimmed the article) where a politician admitted she was formerly a victim of domestic violence and her opponent said that women who are successful, have enough money and are educated are not possibly victims. It is current, there is some quote out there that women are afraid on a date that men will hurt them and men are afraid women wont like them or laugh at them. Something about the balance of bringing out the automatic ways women check for safety on a regular basis with recognizing all the men who are wonderful, safe and great parents.

I would also like to see that men can be victims and there are times when a mother is using a child to punish a dad. I didn't do that but I was very cautious because he had not been reliable and involved. My ex was given 50-50 custody based on his intention to be more involved with the kids, but I also got a 'soft restraining order' ?, He wasn't legally allowed to see me without a 3rd party present (not the kids). Generally he is seen super positive as a divorced dad where I still feel some negative from being a single mom.

Geez, human relationships are hard!

[Ultralight]

Statistically black men are more likely to commit crimes. Should we profile them via prejudice?

[Zoe Girl]

Statistically black men are more likely to commit crimes. Should we profile them via prejudice?

No, and that is tricky. By talking to the person in front of you, the parent with the child who needs assistance, then hopefully we are basing this on some facts. I still think people overall have really poor relationship skills and first call should be some amount of teaching and support, with the knowledge in the back of your head that a pregnant woman is statistically more at risk of being murdered than at any other time in her life. I was just thinking that this applies to same sex couples I assume, so would I look at a pregnant lesbian and have that risk in my head or would I assume that women don't kill? Hmmmm,

[iris lilies]

Well, there is, but it seems only in theory. Like in my human development class the book has info about that and the Prof will echo much of what is in the book. She talks about her sons often, but never mentions their father(s?) and she is unmarried.

But in philosophy and practice it really seems as though fathers are considered less-than or even extraneous. I am not sure what I think of this.

If you think this is anything other than ridiculous, you have a screw loose. Edited to add: well,
I had better soften this. I think you are smarter than to,buy this hook and line.



Would you be happier if you were publicly recognized in some way for your contributions to the social welfare system?

To be personally recognized-- not important. To hear regularly, as often as I hear plaintive talk about
" not enough funding" a recognition that there is a shitton of money going toward social welfare programs, would be a breath of fresh air.

I dont mind if those who benefit from certain human conditions being a crises cry and whine about funding not being enough to solve the probelm. I mind when they act as though there is no funding at all, no programs whatsoever.

[iris lilies]

UL, do you have any opinion on the validity of social-worker-as-therapist?

Technically, a MSW degree gives you the credential to hang your shingle and perform talk therapy, but I am deeply skeptical about the ability and training here. I wonder about how the training for MSW differs from psychologist.

[Chicken lady]

Generally one would assume that if the woman felt safe naming the father, she would not have to be required to do so.

however, I know my friend's oldest child was listed as "father unknown" because even though she was engaged to the father, they were giving the child up because they could not afford a decent life for her. Medicaid payed for prenatal care and delivery. Had she named the father, medicaid would have sought reimbursal from him even to the point of garnishing his future wages for years even though during the pregnancy they were both equally broke.

So, she listed the father as unknown so that they would not be financially penalized for letting the child live and turning her over to a family that wanted and could afford her.

this was almost 30 years ago.....

i always warned my son my son that if he fathered a child out of wedlock, responsibilities might come easily, but rights he would have to fight for - and that he only had choices about conception, not termination.

i do think a father (or mother) should be allowed to give up his rights in return for freedom from financial responsibility. A mother pretty much can though - just claim father unknown and give the child up for adoption.

[Ultralight]

UL, do you have any opinion on the validity of social-worker-as-therapist?

Technically, a MSW degree gives you the credential to hang your shingle and perform talk therapy, but I am deeply skeptical about the ability and training here. I wonder about how the training for MSW differs from psychologist.

I have opinions on this, though they ain't gospel.

My opinion is that therapists don't do much real, measurable good. I saw one in grad school after a little run in with the law (which ultimately became a non-issue, just let me say I am protective of my romantic partners and I don't take kindly to people disrespecting or endangering them).




And... I saw one in 2012 when I lost all hope for humanity. I figured that it might be a good idea, out of an abundance of caution, to see a therapist as a result of this realization. She was horrible and reminded me more of a hairdresser at a salon than a mental health professional.


Then after my devastating divorce in 2013 I started seeing another therapist. I found her on the Secular Therapy Project.

This one did help some, but mostly in changing my perspectives and being someone to talk to. She is very bright and a big leader in the atheist community here.
This ended up limiting the involvement I can have in the atheist community here because dual-relationships are a no-no and she or I (usually I) dodge out of an event if we are both there.

I also have a few friends who are MSW therapists. I'd like to see some research on the impact that they have, longitudinal and otherwise.

Here is what I think really matters: An individual's will to change.

For instance, I have "problems" with deep depression, anxiety, and stress.

I tend to have a problem-focused coping style. This means I identify the problem, come up with a plan to fix the problem, and then I execute said plan and fix the problem! This is not what most people want to hear. This requires work and effort. This requires you to grab as much of your destiny in your two fists as you can and mold it into something new.

Most people just want someone to complain to. MSW therapists are sometimes quite good for this.
Most people would rather take a pill. Any family doctor can give you pills.

But to really change your life, you have to have the want and put in the work. MSW therapists don't usually facilitate this to any considerable degree.

[razz]

The thread strikes me as making a lot of assumptions on interpretations of words spoken. Show me the sheets when these questions are asked and I might agree with some of the thoughts presented. Was the prof simply trying to trigger discussion? Had she made an agreement with her partner to not discuss their parenting styles about their sons?

Do I think that women have the responsibility for children in the eyes of society and the law? Yes, I think so. Is it accurate to make this decision? From what I have seen, often fathers feel left out or choose to be left out of the child's day to day care. That is changing as the old model of child rearing is becoming more of a two parent responsibility. Often fathers want the freedom to do their own thing and then get involved with what time is left over. This is not true for all obviously but I don't know the percentage who do this. Maybe they are more easily seen. Some women do this as well. Unfortunately, children are living beings who cannot be managed like little robots or simply texting each other.

A communications course suggested that we bring all our personal history to what we hear, accept and understand.

Where a child is the result of sex for lust's sake, the father seems less involved whether married or not. Where a father chooses to be a dad, he is usually very involved.

Maybe my objection is to the attempt to stereotype parenting from parents. Children are so different in their needs, interests and growth and often, looking at the situation with compassion, parents who have so many unmet needs of their own simply don't know how to respond. My kids knew that their dad and I were a solid team that could not be played one against the other. In how many families is that true today?

[Tybee]

IL, you might find this forum interesting if you are trying to seek the differences, similarities, and overlaps between social work and psychology:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/masters-in-social-work-vs-masters-in-clinical-psychology.1020515/

[Teacher Terry]

In most states having a MSW does not allow you to hang a shingle and do therapy. You need to be a LCSW. This requires 3,000 hours of training in therapy under the supervision of a LCSW. Many states also require a written and oral exam. People only change when the pain of changing is less then the pay of staying the same. YOu can't solve a problem for anyone. A good therapist helps someone find their own solutions. Everyone's solution is different. This is one of my 4 college degrees. Men are very important to families/kids, etc. You can't just write them off. SW is more enabling then I like. It is one reason when I went back to grad school I decided to focus on testing/evaluation with a focus on helping people with disabilities go to work because although it still helps people it also expects to the person to work harder then the professional.

[iris lilies]

In most states having a MSW does not allow you to hang a shingle and do therapy. You need to be a LCSW. This requires 3,000 hours of training in therapy under the supervision of a LCSW. Many states also require a written and oral exam. People only change when the pain of changing is less then the pay of staying the same. YOu can't solve a problem for anyone. A good therapist helps someone find their own solutions. Everyone's solution is different. This is one of my 4 college degrees. Men are very important to families/kids, etc. You can't just write them off. SW is more enabling then I like. It is one reason when I went back to grad school I decided to focus on testing/evaluation with a focus on helping people with disabilities go to work because although it still helps people it also expects to the person to work harder then the professional.

Thanks, I mixed up the acronyms.

3,000 hours is a lot!

[LDAHL]

This is a very interesting discussion. I’m enough of a traditionalist to believe a father’s role should extend beyond that of a mere gamete donor dismissible at the mother’s option. I can see how it might simplify a social worker’s task for mothers to be “brides of the state” rather than at least partly reliant on some less-than-dependable father. But even if we ignore the interests of the taxpayers, surely there will be some cases where the mother will in fact be the less fit parent. Wouldn’t the interests of children be a better default position?

I'll admit I had no idea that social workers had a therapist role. The one's I've worked with seemed more involved with issues of food, shelter and physical safety.

[Teacher Terry]

Many SW's have only a BA or a MSW but aren't clinical so they too will do casework or be supervisors working for the state or county. Medical SW's are also needed in hospital. Schools sometimes employ them. Often a school or hospital will want a MSW but not necessarily a LCSW.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't believe in therapy, I don't much believe in trying to help yourself. Waste of time, energy and emotion is all those things are. I guess I mostly just believe in accepting most things as they are for the most part.

And the traditional role of a father was to bring home the bacon (useful economically yes) and for everything else to say "that's your mothers responsibility" or such was my understanding. Mostly what I saw fathers do. But nowdays they seem way more involved.

[LDAHL]

I don't believe in therapy, I don't much believe in trying to help yourself. Waste of time, energy and emotion is all those things are. I guess I mostly just believe in accepting most things as they are for the most part.

And the traditional role of a father was to bring home the bacon (useful economically yes) and for everything else to say "that's your mothers responsibility" or such was my understanding. Mostly what I saw fathers do. But nowdays they seem way more involved.

I guess I must have been lucky in my choice of fathers.

[JaneV2.0]

I don't believe in therapy, I don't much believe in trying to help yourself. Waste of time, energy and emotion is all those things are. I guess I mostly just believe in accepting most things as they are for the most part.

And the traditional role of a father was to bring home the bacon (useful economically yes) and for everything else to say "that's your mothers responsibility" or such was my understanding. Mostly what I saw fathers do. But nowdays they seem way more involved.

Pretty much my philosophy, too. That's why I say my primary skill is endurance. I do try to change what I feel like I can, but without much success.

I had one of those distant fifties' era fathers; that parenting style was quite popular back in the day.

[LDAHL]

You're dredging up some memories for me here. It's funny you guys should bring up the misfortune's-good-sport helpless passivity thing. One of the old man's favorite responses to my whines and complaints used to be "what are you going to do about it?" I never had the impression he was ever all that disappointed by my numerous and varied failures and mistakes, but he had very little tolerance for giving up.

I think I'll give him a call tonight.

[Tybee]

My dad was a Marine, so we were definitely raised with a mentality of Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome, which served us well.

[catherine]

I don't believe in therapy, I don't much believe in trying to help yourself. Waste of time, energy and emotion is all those things are. I guess I mostly just believe in accepting most things as they are for the most part.


I half agree with the therapy thing--I think it's a very useful tool in the right situations, but I do believe in trying to help yourself along the lines of "change what you can, accept the rest." I take on self-improvement like a hobby. It's fun, as long as I don't take myself or my "project" too seriously. I'll admit that sometimes I feel like a hamster running in a wheel because I probably am no different than I was 50 years ago--and maybe I would have arrived at the same place without the self-help books, yoga classes, meditation and prayer, nightly examination of conscience, and journaling of feelings, but it makes life interesting. As Emerson said, "an unexamined life is not worth living."

As for therapy, I've attended in a couple of short spurts. I think they helped in holding up a mirror, helping me put my problem in perspective, and helping me examine my options, but I may have achieved the same result for less money at support groups.

[Zoe Girl]

I have had therapy, I have had help. I had one therapist that was a waste but I see at the time I was in such a bad place that there were parts of it that helped. Just having a person to talk to at all. However he did not help me make the changes I needed to make at all. I had another who was brilliant and got to a diagnoses that saved me. The last big change I needed to make was more internal and with the support of my meditation practice, that I couldn't have done well without the other supports. I will say that many therapists do not know how to work with abuse. I highly recommend if you have a strong feeling you are in an abusive situation to not see couples therapy, instead to seek individual therapy for yourself.

My problem is that the therapy is not getting where it is needed. Lots of people who are functional have better access than people who very much need it. And our therapy community is not as diverse as the populations that need help. So it is seen as some people have described it here, a lot of navel gazing on self improvement, and that is what is happening a lot. However there are people with histories of abuse and mental illness that would benefit greatly.

[JaneV2.0]

Therapy seems to be, for most people, a sympathetic ear. I could be wrong; I've never tried it, but like ApatheticNoMore, I really don't believe in it. Except maybe, as Zoe Girl points out, for people suffering from trauma or similar.

[Tybee]

I think therapy is great and I think everyone should have access when needed. I've been to both MSWs and psychologists and have preferred the MSW's as they have a holistic approach, which makes sense to me. I don't see it as any different than going to an allopath if you have strep, or an allopath for a yearly checkup. A lot of what therapists do seems to me about stress prevention, harm reduction, and preventative care.

Just my two cents!

[iris lilies]

I have had therapy, I have had help. I had one therapist that was a waste but I see at the time I was in such a bad place that there were parts of it that helped. Just having a person to talk to at all. However he did not help me make the changes I needed to make at all. I had another who was brilliant and got to a diagnoses that saved me. The last big change I needed to make was more internal and with the support of my meditation practice, that I couldn't have done well without the other supports. I will say that many therapists do not know how to work with abuse. I highly recommend if you have a strong feeling you are in an abusive situation to not see couples therapy, instead to seek individual therapy for yourself.

My problem is that the therapy is not getting where it is needed. Lots of people who are functional have better access than people who very much need it. And our therapy community is not as diverse as the populations that need help. So it is seen as some people have described it here, a lot of navel gazing on self improvement, and that is what is happening a lot. However there are people with histories of abuse and mental illness that would benefit greatly.

Lobbying legislative bodies to provide mandantory insurance coverage of therapy, and public monies for therapy programs, is a major activity of the professional associations that serve therapists.Gotta shake loose the money to provide clients for all of these therapists coming out of school.

I view this all through a lense of employment for the legion of women I know who are going to be therapists. I dont know where the clients come from, those who can pay, anyway. Some insurance policies cover it, some do not. But then, I don't know much about insurance. I first noticed this trend of middle aged women going to grad school to become therapists, changng frm their exisitng professions, about 5 years ago. Now, I am seeing i
t everywhere and have yong relatives heading in that direction.

I get bits and pieces of info that indicate court ordered therapy is part of an income stream for some therapists.

[iris lilies]

I should also add that I think cognitive behaviorial therapy makes sense to me as a "modality." (Haha, I always hear in my head Lisa Kudrow's character from "Web Therapy" when using the word "modality." "Web Therapy" is a spoof of Hollywood faux therapists.)

And certainly people who are severly compromised with schizophrenia and bi-polar illnesses and etc need to be monitored with talk therapy while they get medication.

[Tybee]

I actually see therapy as a lot like conventional medicine, with treatment of something like schizophrenia as being like the ER treatment of a heart attack. But if everyone could get therapeutic access if they wanted, for learning things like stress reduction (and CBT great for that) then you are going to have fewer ER events, as people will be happier and healthier. Why wait for the serious emergency to happen to provide health care (to keep up with the analogy.)

Again, that's my opinion, and why I like there being good therapists out there, to meet the need for good therapists.
And some people don't want to use therapy, just as some people don't want to use allopathic medicine or acupuncture or physical therapy if they are injured. Perfectly fine. I just would prefer to live in a world where those things are available to people, and a big part of availability is access and affordability. It's great when people have that choice.

[Zoe Girl]

One of my friends was trying to find a good counselor, he is also in school to become a therapist. He struggled to find one that was familiar with transgender issues, he is transgender female-male. I look at that population that has high suicide rates as in great need of support, yet there are barriers to access. Meanwhile I know there are therapists who would love to work with clients who are not middle age crisis types, yet the funding is not always there.

That is one area i thought about working in, I have spent enough years naturally listening to people, making connections with teens and young adults, understanding some difficult family dynamics, spending time with people on the gender/sexuality spectrum, etc. Of course needed a lot of training, but it wasn't where I ended up.

[iris lilies]

...

Would you be happier if you were publicly recognized in some way for your contributions to the social welfare system?

This morning on an NPR show I heard a book author say that there should have been reparations offered to those in Haiti for the screw ups in how help was offered after the big earthquake there some years. The big non-governmental organizations (and perhaps some government organizations, too? ) didn't do an exemplary job. She didn't give details.

Thus is how receivers of help view the help, as not good enough. They denigrate the help they received. Well, we have a chance to get it right this time as we pour more billions into Haiti after this last hurricane! yay, us.

That said, I am absolutely certain that many many things could have been done better in the Haiti earthquake situation, many things went wrong, many problems took place, it was a pretty f**ked up situation there. And the author helpfully pointed out that the human welfare emergency systems set up last time around were swept off the island by this hurricane. Clean slate! Start all over.

Thanks, but no thanks. Bulldog Rescue will continue to get my charitable contributions, the dogs will not offer helpful criticism.

[LDAHL]

This morning on an NPR show I heard a book author say that there should have been reparations offered to those in Haiti for the screw ups in how help was offered after the big earthquake there some years. The big non-governmental organizations (and perhaps some government organizations, too? ) didn't do an exemplary job. She didn't give details.

Thus is how receivers of help view the help, as not good enough. They denigrate the help they received. Well, we have a chance to get it right this time as we pour more billions into Haiti after this last hurricane! yay, us.

That said, I am absolutely certain that many many things could have been done better in the Haiti earthquake situation, many things went wrong, many problems took place, it was a pretty f**ked up situation there. And the author helpfully pointed out that the human welfare emergency systems set up last time around were swept off the island by this hurricane. Clean slate! Start all over.

Thanks, but no thanks. Bulldog Rescue will continue to get my charitable contributions, the dogs will not offer helpful criticism.

Interesting. I've been involved in enough non-profit work to have no expectation of gratitude and even to plan on some resentment and criticism from the people we try, however imperfectly, to help.

But I'm not in it for any kind of recognition. You might say I try to be good for nothing.

[iris lilies]

Interesting. I've been involved in enough non-profit work to have no expectation of gratitude and even to plan on some resentment and criticism from the people we try, however imperfectly, to help.

But I'm not in it for any kind of recognition. You might say I try to be good for nothing.

haha, but it's not about personal recognition, that's not my complaint.

It's about recognition, and preferably appreciation, for the GENERAL help some give others.

But I suppose you are right, resentment and criticism go hand in hand with anything human and "reparations" is an excellent tool in the basket of victims.

[LDAHL]

haha, but it's not about personal recognition, that's not my complaint.

It's about recognition, and preferably appreciation, for the GENERAL help some give others.

But I suppose you are right, resentment and criticism go hand in hand with anything human and "reparations" is an excellent tool in the basket of victims.

I have a sort of half-baked theory that we are only capable of being happy to the extent of our capacity for gratitude.

If we think only in terms of entitlement and victimhood, it's hard to see how any help will ever be considered sufficient.

[catherine]

I have a sort of half-baked theory that we are only capable of being happy to the extent of our capacity for gratitude.


Not half-baked at all. Fully mature. Nicely put.