YMOYL Discussion: Week 4, Chapter 4: How Much is Enough?

[catherine]

This should spur some good discussion.

I'd like to tackle just the first 4 pages about dreams, purpose, and living the good life.

There's a great quote right in the first paragraph:


..to have a fulfilled life you need to have a sense of purpose, a dream of what a good life might be.

They then talk about how our dreams often get "downsized." (Too bad it's our dreams that get downsized while our "stuff" upsizes.)

Then they ask us to do this:


Wherever you are, take a few moments now to reflect on your dreams. So many of us have spent so many hours, days and years of our lives devoted to someone else's agenda that it may be hard to get in touch with our dreams. So many of us have whittled away at our uniqueness...."

Think about that, and share your response to one of the following questions they pose:


What did you want to be when you grew up?
What have you always wanted to do that you haven't done yet?
What have you done in your life that you are really proud of?
If you knew you were going to die within a year, how would you spend that year?
What brings you the most fulfillment--and how is that related to money?
If you didn't have to work for a living, how would you spend your time?



For me, personally, this chapter is good timing.

What is your dream of "the good life"? How big is that gap between the dream and reality?

[ToomuchStuff]

This should spur some good discussion.


So far, nothing?! I half expected that, since dreams are so personal.
Then you have to differentiate from dreams when we sleep, to goals, and which does the book actually mean? (and this has an affect on dreams getting downsized, as realism. You may fly without a plane in your dreams as a child, but try it in real, and we call it falling and you know what they call gravity.) I have had the same "dream" for decades, and most would consider it a nightmare; I don't consider it a goal.
Then you ask 6 questions:
1. I remember a lot more of my life, then I should or want to. I have mentioned what I wanted to be as a kid (in the funeral business), but it was so I would work with my grandfather. He died when I was 6, and a good part of that dream died. I have had friends who worked for that funeral home and known some of the owners of it, before it went corporate. I may still end up with some kind of part time job there when I retire, like a couple of people I know have. (vehicle maintenance)
2. There is nothing I have always wanted to do. I accomplished those mostly at great expense by the time I was 25. I always expected to be dead, long before 30, and have been in enough "interesting" situations, that I basically have stopped "dreaming" (goal making) this way. There are things I have thought it would be nice to do or see, but I have not made them goals, and in several, due to the internet, I could take virtual tours and then have felt disappointment and happiness that money wasn't spent to achieve them.
3. I can't speak of it, that will die with me.
4. Getting my affairs in order, stuff sold, etc. so there is basically only the laundry I am wearing to get rid of.
5. I wish I knew. Money is now only a goal, because I have lived longer then I expected. I need to be prepared, realistically to live longer then thought. (have money for "retirement")
6. Hopefully volunteering or learning new skills, because I expect I would be bored out of my skull.

[freshstart]

1. a nurse- I watched my grandfather die at home with hospice when I was 14 and hospice was just getting off the ground in there. I achieved that goal and loved it.
2. I want to tour around Europe and wind surf, I don't see either happening.
3. my work in all kinds of nursing, being a mom
4. reading as many great books as possible, spending quality time with the people I love, getting my affairs in order, too, I'd like to leave with the only mess being the clothes on my back.
5. Right now it sort of feels like nothing is bringing me fulfillment, between being sued by the ex, not feeling well, worrying about money, unsatisfactory relationships., etc. My dog gives me a daily dose of fulfillment. When things settle down, I will examine this question further
6. I don't work and what I do with my time is not particularly fulfilling. I have a lot to work on.

[greenclaire]

What did you want to be when you grew up?

I always played at being a doctor / vet and a school teacher. The doctor thing nearly happened, well it did for a short-while, I completed medical school but then got very ill and never returned. I did end up being a teacher and have now been one for 10 years. The vet thing was never going to happen due to phobias of reptiles (that is getting better) and allergies to most pet fur!




What have you always wanted to do that you haven't done yet?

I want to visit every continent, I'd also love to do a long distance challenge of some kind, something like walk round the whole of the UK.




What have you done in your life that you are really proud of?

Recovered from being suicidal, being a mum, ran the London marathon, broke away from toxic people.





If you knew you were going to die within a year, how would you spend that year?

Eating lots of good food, travelling and having lots of sex




What brings you the most fulfillment--and how is that related to money?

Travel and spending time with my partner. He's in the USA and I'm in the UK so seeing each other costs a lot of money at the moment. We're also part way through the visa process which again is costing a lot of money.




If you didn't have to work for a living, how would you spend your time?

I'd set up a small school for those kids who get thrown out of regular schools and for kids with mental health difficulties. Or I'd foster lots of children. I'd probably spend a great deal of time making miniature stuff too.

[Tammy]

When I was little I wanted to be a nurse. When I was in high school I wanted to get married and have babies and I had absolutely no career aspirations. Then at about age 30, after the 3 kids were born, I decided I still wanted to be a nurse. So I went back to school and after six years I had my BSN.

After almost 20 years working as a nurse, I feel like I'm finally doing what I would do even if I didn't need the money. I really love teaching nursing students and I've been doing that on a part-time basis for a community college. My other work is 2 twelve hour days a week as a supervisor. It's hard work and it can be stressful - but at least it's only two days a week and it pays well.

So even if I win the lottery I would probably still keep both jobs and continue toward my goal of a state pension in 10 years. Although if that lottery were high enough I would only do the teaching job.

I also homeschool my grandson one day a week. And I watch the younger grandkids a few times a week as well. I like to take them to the children's museum and places like that.

I'm pretty lucky that everything that I do really does match my dreams at this point in my life. I've had many years where that wasn't the case.

[catherine]

Thanks, all, for your candid responses.. You're right, TooMuchStuff--very personal (I didn't mean to probe--I DID say to pick ONE question--but I do I welcome all and any responses that might help reveal the alignment between our dreams and how we spent/spend our money throughout our lives.)

I think life can be like a Plinko game--remember that game on Price is Right, where the person stands at the top of this big board that has a bunch of pins that will "plink" the puck down towards the bottom of the board. You are aiming for the big prize circle, but sometimes your puck just plinks down far away from where you aiming.

People can unintentionally live like that plinko puck, taking one fork in the road after the other and winding up far from where you intended. Sometimes you choose which way you go; sometimes life chooses, but the bottom line is, sometimes you "win" your dream and other times you wind up somewhere completely different.

That's what the point of this chapter is.. but where our lives depart from the Plinko board is sometimes we wind up winning a better prize. We THINK we want something but life guides us down a different path. I believe in human agency for sure, but I also believe in the miraculous power of life to give us happiness where we least expect it.

So, getting back to that "gap" question for me.. When it comes to money, there have been many surprises.. some good, some bad. When it comes to how I have chosen to earn my money there have been many surprises.

Like freshstart, I'm turning 65 next year, and it feels like a bit of a reverse puberty. Instead of seeing my future spread out in a tantalizing way like I did at 12, now I feel like I'm on my way out of Oz and back to Kansas. But that's not a bad thing--as Dorothy said, "There's no place like home." But what's home? AM I at home--comfortable with how I've used my income and outgo? If not, what do I have to do to rectify things?

When I was young I wanted to be (at various times)
A nun
An artist
A teacher
A costume designer
An actor
A French translator at the UN
A journalist

I wound up being:
A production assistant for a major broadcasting company
A family day-care provider
A newsletter writer
A stuffer of birds (soft sculpture, not taxidermy)
A public relations director for a school district
Ultimately, a market researcher

I'm not unhappy about how I chose to make money. That's only one slice of my life. The main slice is the greatest source of my satisfaction. When I'm on my deathbed I'll be able to say that I had four of the greatest kids in the world (entirely subjective, I know), and I'll carry with me the knowledge that they are making the world a better place by being on this planet.

But moving forward, I HAVE to close the gap between my debt and desire for financial freedom; between my home and desire for a pared-down simple life; my time and my desire to share more of it with people and causes I love.

If I can refocus on the principles of YMOYL, I think I can remind myself that every penny I spend that is NOT aligned with those three things is a plink away from the big win.

[Kestra]

I just read this chapter quickly as I've been thinking an awful lot about this topic in the last 2-3 years, and have made a lot of life changes as a result. Following the YMOYL example (or just happening to do it anyhow) is how I've managed to drop out of the "normal workforce" and do whatever I want.

I am interested in answering the questions.

What did you want to be when you grew up?
Mostly I wanted to be Dave Barry. Or some other type of writer. I also wanted to live a minimalistic, self-sufficient, independent lifestyle, but I knew I'd need some money. I couldn't figure out how to do what I wanted and be able to pay for it. I didn't really have many big aspirations - everything seemed so stressful (anxiety issues) or completely unattainable.

What have you always wanted to do that you haven't done yet?
Learn how to sing. Or sing better. Travel more as an adult - Europe, most of Canada, Hawaii.

What have you done in your life that you are really proud of?
Getting my black belt in karate. Trying roller derby at age 39. Leaving my marriage (sort of; mixed feelings there - not really pride), quitting several jobs, and finally working on my own business.


If you knew you were going to die within a year, how would you spend that year?
Travelling around N. America, meeting all my internet friends, seeing all the beautiful places I hadn't seen yet, teaching personal finance, meeting new people and not being so self-conscious, spending time with my SO.

What brings you the most fulfillment--and how is that related to money?
Problem solving, making spreadsheets, doing math, talking to people, giving advice, improving situations for others. I'm trying to make money doing all my favourite things by starting a money coaching business.


If you didn't have to work for a living, how would you spend your time?
Exercising, travelling, growing and harvesting food, making spreadsheets, problem solving, volunteering with people who don't typically have access to financial planning services. Pretty much what I'm doing now, except I don't have much money and the main priority has to be making an income again.

[iris lilies]

What did you want to be when you grew up?
I am lucky to not remember much of what I wanted to do. I suppose be a veterinarian at one point, like all kids who like animals. I probably thought about being a writer.

But I distinctly remember wanting to live in a big city like New York, in a townhouse, and lead a city life with theaters and parks and taking advantage of the things that cities have. I kind of ended up doing that although St. Louis is no New York. Its likely that in my city fantasy I was svelte and better dressed.

What are you most proud of?

Apparently I am pretty far into being self actualized. This only occurred to me in recent years. I've always known myself and can easily identify and reject life choices that won't work for me. That rejection process always helps to narrow choices on what to do. I've never relied on others for guidance as to what I should do. I've had probably 4 or 5 major life decision points and for each one it took a while for me to work out what to do, but for each one I made a decision that I did not regret. I did have a bit of sadness that I couldn't do both things (had to choose one or the other) but that doesn't mean that I wish I had taken a different path.

If you didn't have to work for a living...
I spend entirely too much time on the stupid internet. Here I am, finally retired, not answering to anyone (well, DH has some expectations!) and I fritter the day away on the mf computer. What a waste of a life! I Do accomplish other things, just not nearly as much as I want to accomplish. It creeps me out. This has to change!!!

[flowerseverywhere]

I had a fulfilling career working with the mentally ill as a nurse. I do have some regrets, but dwelling on those is not productive. I realize how fortunate we were to never have been out of work and to have two middle class incomes. We did live below our means, living in a much cheaper house then we could afford and especially with our vehicles, we were the king and queen of rust buckets which DH fixed. Also, we stayed in a long term marriage. I realize that many people through no fault of their own lose jobs, end up in a divorce or have other unfortunate things happen to them. I read stories here all the time of bad things that happen to good people that make me very sad.

I don't have to work for a living. Thanks to YMOYL I have way less stuff than most people. Many years ago I thought very hard about what we were valuing and DH jumped on board. It is much harder today as DH had a job with a moderate pension which are all but gone today. Also, we were able to limit our family size, something women slightly older than me did not have the option of doing.
My life today:
Almost every day I go to the gym. Surrounding myself with healthy people is a positive influence on me.

i do all kinds of crafts, including pottery, quilting and am getting into working with glass. I am in a big sale next week so will pare down what my friends and family don't want.

But what I really love is I have found some charities I love working for. Combat veterans to careers helps those returning from war to assimilate into the workforce and society. Also, a local organization that helps the working poor. They help people fix up their houses, help the kids with a tutoring/mentoring program, in the long run they have helped people take steps to leave behind generational poverty and step up to the lower middle class. They went into a very poor area of town where many people were of color, and it was normal for the young women to get pregnant young and the young men to go to jail. Through this organization the families they have touched have seen kids not only graduate from high school, some have gone to trade school or college or have successful military careers, and were able to break that awful cycle of the young in jail or pregnant. All done with donations and sweat equity. I also volunteer a few times a month at our local library. They sell used books and have programs to help the local schools, like mentoring, buying books for the classrooms and library and scholarships.

Oh, and by not working I can help out with the grandkids whenever they need me. I love that freedom.

[pinkytoe]

Being newly retired puts a new spin on a lot of these questions. It is so odd to observe most people caught up in the mad dash when you step away from it. I think the one over-arching theme to my life has been to make beauty out of chaos. I have always loved putting things in order. I did a good job of that in raising a happy and fulfilled child and in my various employment pursuits. As I will no longer be working full time, I will spend my days trying make my new neighborhood and city a better place in whatever little way I can, I will put my new house in order and I will create beautiful gardens.

[Teacher Terry]

When I was a teen I wanted to be a writer for soap operas. I loved to write at that time. I got married young and had 3 kids. Then at 31 I decided to go to college. I had a career that I loved. I had always wanted to teach too but never did and then shortly after I retired an opportunity to teach at our uni fell into my lap and I teach 1 course/each semester and really love it. I have cut way back on my consulting work as I got tired of it. I only test clients now for 2 people that I really like. So no regrets for me. Life has certainly not been perfect as I am on DH #3 but overall things are good.

[freshstart]

just curious- are we stopping with chapter 4 because my book is due back at the library and IDK whether to renew?

[catherine]

just curious- are we stopping with chapter 4 because my book is due back at the library and IDK whether to renew?

Sorry, freshstart! I've had a really busy couple of weeks and I dropped the ball! I'll post Chapter 5!!

[pcooley]

What did you want to be when you grew up?

When I was very small, I wanted to be a scientist, because I loved the woods, and I loved insects, birds, and all other animals. That dream got kiboshed when I found out that you had to dissect those things and also learn organic chemistry. Then I decided that I wanted to be a writer or a Taoist sage.


What have you always wanted to do that you haven't done yet?

I have always wanted to hike the three long trails in the United States - Appalachian, Continental Divide, and Pacific Crest


What have you done in your life that you are really proud of?

My children. In terms of personal accomplishments, I have published some articles, so I can check off "paid for my writing." I'm proud of my marriage. I'm proud of paying off the mortgage. I'm somewhat proud of beekeeping, but I don't enjoy it a great deal - I like the idea of it more than the activity, which is true of many things I do.


If you knew you were going to die within a year, how would you spend that year?

I don't feel I would do a great deal different. I would probably visit my daughter in Italy.


What brings you the most fulfillment--and how is that related to money?

Right now, I think I enjoy the community at Mountain Cloud Zen Center. I also enjoy writing letters, and I enjoy reading. I enjoy the backpacking trips I take, (about two or three weeks a year). The first three things don't take much money. Backpacking trips I have to save a little bit for.


If you didn't have to work for a living, how would you spend your time?

I would spend more time backpacking and more time taking care of the Zen Center.

[catherine]

Sorry for the hiatus. I've been closing 5 different projects so things have been pretty hectic. I promise to try to stay on track!

Before we move ahead to Chapter 5, I'd like to just tackle the rest of Chapter 4.

There's a big chunk of Chapter 4 that's very "nuts and bolts." Not sure if anyone has ever done the Monthly Tabulation and asked the Three Questions to determine whether or not they've received "fulfillment, satisfaction and value in proportion to life energy spent."

I do this in a general way--I'll review my budget and spending on YNAB at the end of the month. I also pull a little from Dave Ramsey and in the "notes" section of the transactions I'll literally write "STUPID TAX" if I feel I wasted money on that particular expenditure.

The three questions you use to evaluate your spending are:


Did I receive fulfillment, satisfaction and value in proportion to life energy spent?
Is this expenditure of life energy in alignment with my values and life purpose?
How might this expenditure change if I didn't have to work for a living?


Do you evaluate your spending at month's end? Since it's only November 2, can you describe an October expenditure that you feel was worth your life energy and one that wasn't?


The rest of the chapter is about purpose in life, and then it goes into the implications for examining how you spend your money and working towards aligning spending with values. I really think that many if not most of us are here on this forum because we are after this kind of integrity in our lives, and a lot of this chapter is preaching to the choir.

Anyone want to share thoughts on how your spending reflects your values, and how you achieved that alignment?

[Tybee]

Sorry for the hiatus. I've been closing 5 different projects so things have been pretty hectic. I promise to try to stay on track!

Before we move ahead to Chapter 5, I'd like to just tackle the rest of Chapter 4.

There's a big chunk of Chapter 4 that's very "nuts and bolts." Not sure if anyone has ever done the Monthly Tabulation and asked the Three Questions to determine whether or not they've received "fulfillment, satisfaction and value in proportion to life energy spent."

I do this in a general way--I'll review my budget and spending on YNAB at the end of the month. I also pull a little from Dave Ramsey and in the "notes" section of the transactions I'll literally write "STUPID TAX" if I feel I wasted money on that particular expenditure.

The three questions you use to evaluate your spending are:


Did I receive fulfillment, satisfaction and value in proportion to life energy spent?
Is this expenditure of life energy in alignment with my values and life purpose?
How might this expenditure change if I didn't have to work for a living?


Do you evaluate your spending at month's end? Since it's only November 2, can you describe an October expenditure that you feel was worth your life energy and one that wasn't?


The rest of the chapter is about purpose in life, and then it goes into the implications for examining how you spend your money and working towards aligning spending with values. I really think that many if not most of us are here on this forum because we are after this kind of integrity in our lives, and a lot of this chapter is preaching to the choir.

Anyone want to share thoughts on how your spending reflects your values, and how you achieved that alignment?

Catherine, I used to do this but havent done it and I would really like to try a month of it. Would you and others be up for a separate thread for this for the month of November, where we can log in and post what we spent for the day and whether we got satisfaction and whether it was aligned with our values? I'd really like to try this but not sure if anyone else would like to put their numbers out there for a month.

[Kestra]

I bought a cider at a bar for about $8 - totally not worth it. Expensive, drinking makes me feel ill, and it doesn't increase my enjoyment of a situation. No more drinking.
I bought new yarn for $60 from a local store, for a new project - totally worth it.

[freshstart]

Sorry, freshstart! I've had a really busy couple of weeks and I dropped the ball! I'll post Chapter 5!!

no problem at all, thank you for facilitating this discussion!

[freshstart]

I bought a fast food meal simply because i was depressed about the goings on with my ex-husband. I felt disgusting afterwards, it brought no joy and I wasted $7 on crap.

Land's End sent me a 50% off code and I was able to find these clutch wallets for $6 and they will make great hostess gifts this season. It was worth the money spent and I feel good knowing I will give a gift my friends and family will likely like.

I'm not sure how to count my hours of energy spent because I am on disability. I guess because the benefit is based on past work I can still use the analogy but it feels off in my case.

[rosarugosa]

Tybee: I would be willing. I assume we wouldn't be assessing expenditures like utility bills, just discretionary purchases, right?

[Tybee]

Tybee: I would be willing. I assume we wouldn't be assessing expenditures like utility bills, just discretionary purchases, right?

That's what I was thinking, rosarugosa. Unless people wanted to talk about utility bills--or whatever expenditures they wanted to track and discuss? Probably not a good idea to have everyone sharing all their purchasing info, but maybe the discretionary would be a good way to limit it?

[Tybee]

Tybee: I would be willing. I assume we wouldn't be assessing expenditures like utility bills, just discretionary purchases, right?

That's what I was thinking, rosarugosa. Unless people wanted to talk about utility bills--or whatever expenditures they wanted to track and discuss? Probably not a good idea to have everyone sharing all their purchasing info, but maybe the discretionary would be a good way to limit it?

And maybe food, which isn't discretionary, but there is a whole lot of leeway there and something I'd like to track for myself.

[iris lilies]

October expenditure not worth it: I went back to a new Turkish restaurant in town (I posted here about it) and odered what I thought I had the last time that was a great dinner. What came out was not 1) the dish I was thinking of 2) all that good 3) very well prepared, the meat was old and dry

so, this was my fault because I had not bothered to look closly at the menu. It also disappointed me that every dish here was not worthy of my 4 stars in YELP.

October/november expense pretty much worth it: now that I am old and have done the super cheap travel thing for decades, I no longer require myself to stay in the cheapest-and-still-safe motels. Driving around this town in Florida, I never did find "motel row" but stumbled into a Best Western set back in a busy street. Price pe night:$98. That isnt cheap, I could beat it if I drove around or did better research. But nope,
I'll save my own time and take this price.