View Full Version : More tales from Social Work class... Original Sin and Thoughtcrime
Ultralight
10-10-16, 8:23am
I am reading a scholarly article for my Advocating for Social Justice class.
In it the author essentially says:
Racism is bad; all whites are racists; so if you are born white then you are born bad/racist.
Is it just me or does that smack of Original Sin?
Also: The same article asserts that having a racist thought that you consciously shut down and do not act on is horribly bad and makes you a racist.
Does that not seem much like Thoughtcrime?
Anyway, just exploring some ideas that I thought would possibly be interesting points of discussion on here.
I continue to read this article with an open mind, though at the same time I question these two aforementioned premises.
Thoughts?
Miss Cellane
10-10-16, 8:38am
What proof is given for "all whites are racist"?
The author sounds racist - they are attributing character attributes to people based solely on the color of their skin.
The thoughtcrime stuff is just weird - leaving aside it completely dismisses how one actually acts as irrelevant, how can one judge anything without thinking about it?
Even Original Sin allows for the possibility of redemption. Assigning a sort of ineradicable blood guilt at birth sounds to me like the very essence of racism. If not thoughtcrime, this is at least a theory of thoughtsin along Calvinist lines of predestination.
I think long term exposure to ideas like this will result in you becoming permanently divorced from reality or a reactionary. Choose wisely.
catherine
10-10-16, 8:50am
What proof is given for "all whites are racist"?
My issue is, why are only whites deemed racist? Isn't it an equal opportunity Original Sin?
iris lilies
10-10-16, 8:57am
In the practical application of this, how white is white? Is a slightly brown man at all racist toward darker brown men? black men? Just how white do we have to be to be full out racists?
iris lilies
10-10-16, 8:58am
What proof is given for "all whites are racist"?
Its a soft science, I doubt that any proofs are necessary.
Ultralight
10-10-16, 9:35am
The author sounds racist - they are attributing character attributes to people based solely on the color of their skin.
The author is not white.
Ultralight
10-10-16, 9:37am
Even Original Sin allows for the possibility of redemption. Assigning a sort of ineradicable blood guilt at birth sounds to me like the very essence of racism. If not thoughtcrime, this is at least a theory of thoughtsin along Calvinist lines of predestination.
I think long term exposure to ideas like this will result in you becoming permanently divorced from reality or a reactionary. Choose wisely.
Thoughtsin! I am going to start using that!
I am not quite finished with the article though, so I think that perhaps toward the end they will say how redemption is possible.
Ultralight
10-10-16, 9:38am
Its a soft science, I doubt that any proofs are necessary.
Again, I am not quite finished with the article. So proof might be on the way!
But don't you go worryin'! I am an evidence-based type guy, as you well know!
I am not quite finished with the article though, so I think that perhaps toward the end they will say how redemption is possible.
Perhaps some Identitarian Thomas Aquinas will offer up a PC version of opera et fidei to resolve the matter.
Miss Cellane
10-10-16, 9:59am
In the practical application of this, how white is white? Is a slightly brown man at all racist toward darker brown men? black men? Just how whie do we have to be to be full out racists?
And, to continue with that thought, does that mean the paler your white skin, the more racist you are?
With my Irish/Scottish genes, that would make me very, very racist.
Which I hope I'm not.
Ultralight
10-10-16, 10:05am
Another interesting point from the article was that white folks who go to teach public school in rough, urban neighborhoods have a "savior mentality."
Maybe this is true, maybe it isn't. But would critics rather these "saviors" had become accountants for some big corporations?
Another interesting point from the article was that white folks who go to teach public school in rough, urban neighborhoods have a "savior mentality."
Maybe this is true, maybe it isn't. But would critics rather these "saviors" had become accountants for some big corporations?
This must be a very learned scholar indeed to penetrate to the innermost souls of elementary school teachers. Is there nothing about us that cannot be revealed by the hue of our hides?
Ultralight
10-10-16, 10:30am
This must be a very learned scholar indeed to penetrate to the innermost souls of elementary school teachers. Is there nothing about us that cannot be revealed by the hue of our hides?
I am skeptical of what this scholar puts forth in this article. There will be a class discussion on it tonight.
I am considering the pros and cons of taking part in this discussion because of my dubiousness -- which goes against the orthodoxy of the field. I don't want to put myself in academic peril -- but this ain't 1984. This ain't Fahrenheit 451.
So I think I should be able to bring up the whole issue of Original Sin and Thoughtcrime/Thoughtsin (thanks LDAHL!).
I don't want to put myself in academic peril -- but this ain't 1984. This ain't Fahrenheit 451.
Sounds like they're making a good start in that direction.
"Check your privilege" and refrain from expressing your doubts, or put yourself at risk for reprisal. I'm not sure what I'd do in your position.
Zoe Girl
10-10-16, 10:54am
When was the article written? I see shifts every year and as part of any discipline we need to know the history of the field. So I could see this being a very current article or one from a few decades ago. Just wanting some more info
iris lilies
10-10-16, 10:56am
Another interesting point from the article was that white folks who go to teach public school in rough, urban neighborhoods have a "savior mentality."
Maybe this is true, maybe it isn't. But would critics rather these "saviors" had become accountants for some big corporations?
Public schools are based are middle class values.It is not a universally held truth that studying academic/book subjects will improve one's life. Teachers, whether white or black, can be sort of savior/holier than thou leaders in their classroom if they try to install the idea that a class at the community college is a better life choice than, say, new Nikes for the entire family.
Ultralight
10-10-16, 12:58pm
Okay, so no real proof ended up being presented in the article. Well, I would not call what they presented as proof proof, more like food-for-thought.
Anyway...
They described US society as racist and that we are all on this conveyor belt of racism. And if you walk briskly along, you are racist. If you stand still you are racist. If you try to walk the other direction, you are still racist.
You cannot be redeemed unless you get off the conveyor belt. But the author did not really describe how to get off the conveyor belt!
Apparently, according to the author the best you can be is an "enlightened perpetrator" of racism and an activist to try to do something to stop the conveyor belt. But again, there was no instructions for stopping this conveyor belt.
Ultralight
10-10-16, 1:01pm
...new Nikes for the entire family.
People like Nikes. I know lots of folks who are really, really into shoes. They are a major facet in the materialism that saturates this culture.
Though I will say I have always just been a fan of whatever cheap tennis shoes feel reasonably comfortable. I currently wear a dusty, old, beat up pair of LA Gears I bought on sale at Miejer for $20!
ApatheticNoMore
10-10-16, 2:11pm
Racism is bad; all whites are racists; so if you are born white then you are born bad/racist.
Is it just me or does that smack of Original Sin?
in that form it seems silly yes. But if racism is unconscious assumptions etc. then it can't even be bad (uh evil since we're using religious terms) in that sense. It can be socially undesirable even so, very well, but it can't be evil in an individual moral sense.
Also: The same article asserts that having a racist thought that you consciously shut down and do not act on is horribly bad and makes you a racist.
Does that not seem much like Thoughtcrime?
yea I don't agree with this. Or I believe we are all capable of all types of thoughts. Who has not had a thought about killing someone, a fantasy. Murder is wrong, but merely thinking of murder, nope.
Another interesting point from the article was that white folks who go to teach public school in rough, urban neighborhoods have a "savior mentality."
Maybe this is true, maybe it isn't. But would critics rather these "saviors" had become accountants for some big corporations?
the problem with charity etc. is hierarchy, it assumes a benefactor and benefices, plus school assumes school can solve social problems. Maybe he would rather they become activists, but I don't really know. I don't think teachers in rough urban neighborhoods are bad or anything.
---------------
I suspect he is making a much more subtle argument than portrayed here, he may not actually be making a moralistic argument (just this society tends to turn *EVERYTHING* into moralism), but I haven't read it so who knows. More subtle but kind of extreme maybe.
I think recent neuroscience/psych research has demonstrated that we all are "racist", if by "racist" you mean "have bias, even if subconscious". Some of the studies are pretty cool, they look at reaction time during association exercises.
So what?
Are we saved by grace, or by works? And is the result predestined?
iris lilies
10-10-16, 2:41pm
I think recent neuroscience/psych research has demonstrated that we all are "racist", if by "racist" you mean "have bias, even if subconscious". Some of the studies are pretty cool, they look at reaction time during association exercises.
So what?
Are we saved by grace, or by works? And is the result predestined?
Yes, I like that.
The who business of identifying racists throws up defensive "no I am not a racist!" attitudes that work against combating racism. So some people may believe all are racists, others may sincerely believe they themselves are not racist. Who really cares? Its just another damned label. Labels CAN be useful for communication among humans but they also can be points of contention in the communication.
Apparently, according to the author the best you can be is an "enlightened perpetrator" of racism and an activist to try to do something to stop the conveyor belt. But again, there was no instructions for stopping this conveyor belt.
Somehow, I doubt people who use terms like "enlightened perpetrator" would be satisfied for each of us to try stopping the conveyor simply by striving as individuals to be as fair-minded as possible and to raise decent children. If we are all indeed hard-wired for racism, then the best we can hope for is to be purged, policed and shamed into the outward semblance of right behavior by an elite clerisy empowered to detect and exorcise the demons of implicit bias.
Ultralight
10-10-16, 2:56pm
Somehow, I doubt people who use terms like "enlightened perpetrator" would be satisfied for each of us to try stopping the conveyor simply by striving as individuals to be as fair-minded as possible and to raise decent children. If we are all indeed hard-wired for racism, then the best we can hope for is to be purged, policed and shamed into the outward semblance of right behavior by an elite clerisy empowered to detect and exorcise the demons of implicit bias.
Crazy as it seems, I kind of agree with you on this.
Also: Write a book, LDAHL. You have the chops and some interesting ideas.
The author is not white.
And why would that make a difference? Or are you saying only whites attribute character attributes to people based solely on the color of their skin?
Another interesting point from the article was that white folks who go to teach public school in rough, urban neighborhoods have a "savior mentality."
Maybe this is true, maybe it isn't. But would critics rather these "saviors" had become accountants for some big corporations?
Attributing a common mindset to a group based just on the color of their skin is also racist.
I think the "like us," "not like us" is a hard-wired quick identifier, but it's just that--quick. Most thoughtful people have no trouble with more complex sorting.
sweetana3
10-10-16, 4:04pm
Almost every country has the us vs them categorization. Some are way more savage about it. Mexico still has the light skinned Spanish looking vs the indigenous Indians. We are here and it is so obvious. India has the caste system and even China has their own minorities and the Tibetans. Japan is quite homogeneous but has the tribes of the northern Islands and don't ask what they think of the Chinese or Koreans. And it goes on and on and on.
I think it is good to think about our attitudes and speak up about it and to try and be more accepting. But to expect that it will magically disappear is wishful thinking.
But to expect that it will magically disappear is wishful thinking.It doesn't help that we label people different from ourselves. MLK had it right when he talked about the content of character rather than color of skin.
Crazy as it seems, I kind of agree with you on this.
Also: Write a book, LDAHL. You have the chops and some interesting ideas.
I think you should start compiling notes for a belly-of-the-beast memoir about the indoctrination process in contemporary higher education. A sort of 21st century version of God and Man at Yale. You've already got some good stuff, and you're just getting started.
JaneV2.0
10-11-16, 10:51am
I think you should start compiling notes for a belly-of-the-beast memoir about the indoctrination process in contemporary higher education. A sort of 21st century version of God and Man at Yale. You've already got some good stuff, and you're just getting started.
Indoctrination was just what I was thinking. It sounds nicer, somehow, than brainwashing >8). This thread reminded me of the excellent classic Ed School Follies, which underlined some of the foolishness that passes for education in some circles.
I thought this PBS series, Race: The Power of Illusion was very good. You might find it interesting--here is episode 2, that deals with the development of thought about race in America's history:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGLsn8O_Lvk
I am skeptical of what this scholar puts forth in this article. There will be a class discussion on it tonight.
I am considering the pros and cons of taking part in this discussion because of my dubiousness -- which goes against the orthodoxy of the field. I don't want to put myself in academic peril -- but this ain't 1984. This ain't Fahrenheit 451.
So I think I should be able to bring up the whole issue of Original Sin and Thoughtcrime/Thoughtsin (thanks LDAHL!).
I'm curious about how the discussion went.
Ultralight
10-12-16, 11:44am
I hedged my commentary in class by saying: "I don't want to put myself in academic peril but..."
And I brought up the original sin stuff and the thoughtcrime/thoughtsin stuff.
They seem to try to parry these concerns by saying: "This is not about individuals being racist; this is about our society and culture."
While I did not get to make this comment because others deserved their chances to speak as well, I remember thinking: "There are schools of fish. But without the fish, there is no school. So individual fish matter."
Perhaps that is a bit too metaphorical. But you get my drift.
Regarding the original sin part I asked two questions to illustrate the point:
1. "If you all were holding a little baby infant that is white, would you look at it and say 'you are a little racist.'?"
2. "Suppose a white guy marries a black lady and they have a baby, would you say 'you are a little half-racist'?"
People brought this up over and over trying to dispute or do intellectual contortions and cope with these questions. One white woman, a SJW, even jokingly said she might consider the white baby a racist. It was odd.
Regarding thoughtcrime, they basically ignored that concern. I suspect this might be because many think thoughts are crimes.
The bulk of the discussion really came in a question about privilege. That was a big issue and so, so many people otherwise quiet chimed in.
ApatheticNoMore
10-12-16, 12:12pm
I hedged my commentary in class by saying: "I don't want to put myself in academic peril but..."
is this even possible? Do you have a syllabus, what are you actually graded on? Is it mostly participation? I realize a lot of grading has an element of subjectivity, unless it's multiple choice tests, but ...
I hedged my commentary in class by saying: "I don't want to put myself in academic peril but..."
And I brought up the original sin stuff and the thoughtcrime/thoughtsin stuff.
They seem to try to parry these concerns by saying: "This is not about individuals being racist; this is about our society and culture."
While I did not get to make this comment because others deserved their chances to speak as well, I remember thinking: "There are schools of fish. But without the fish, there is no school. So individual fish matter."
Perhaps that is a bit too metaphorical. But you get my drift.
Regarding the original sin part I asked two questions to illustrate the point:
1. "If you all were holding a little baby infant that is white, would you look at it and say 'you are a little racist.'?"
2. "Suppose a white guy marries a black lady and they have a baby, would you say 'you are a little half-racist'?"
People brought this up over and over trying to dispute or do intellectual contortions and cope with these questions. One white woman, a SJW, even jokingly said she might consider the white baby a racist. It was odd.
Regarding thoughtcrime, they basically ignored that concern. I suspect this might be because many think thoughts are crimes.
The bulk of the discussion really came in a question about privilege. That was a big issue and so, so many people otherwise quiet chimed in.
Nothing personal, but you're a racist. No need to take offense though. It's just a bookkeeping thing. You'll be fine, we just need to tweak society and the culture for you.
Ultralight
10-12-16, 12:43pm
is this even possible? Do you have a syllabus, what are you actually graded on? Is it mostly participation? I realize a lot of grading has an element of subjectivity, unless it's multiple choice tests, but ...
I meant mostly that I did not want opportunities in the program to be taken away from me in the future if I got a reputation for questioning the orthodoxy. I mean, I am significantly to the left of most of my peers in class. They tend to be Hillary Clinton democrats, I think. Where as I stretched out to my right to vote for Bernie. haha
But the orthodoxy is the orthodoxy. And even if parts of the orthodoxy are on point (which I think they often are) I still think it is worth discussing, questioning, refining, or reforming as needed.
Ultralight
10-12-16, 12:44pm
I will say this, I have run into some folks in this program that make me critical of SJWs -- not of SJ -- but of the Ws. haha
iris lilies
10-12-16, 1:03pm
I will say this, I have run into some folks in this program that make me critical of SJWs -- not of SJ -- but of the Ws. haha
Nextdoor (online system connecting neighbors and communities) awards were mentioned yesterday, and one of our keyboard warriors who does little other than urge others to do stuff, got an award.
I guess that makes sense and I shouldnt be surprised, that the person loudest in the keyboard gets an award.
Ultralight
10-12-16, 1:26pm
I think "humble-bragging" is a key part of being a SJW.
Is this class an anomaly in the overall program? Won't most of the course work be concerned with the nuts and bolts of helping people rather than philosophical/ideological stuff?
Ultralight
10-12-16, 3:13pm
Is this class an anomaly in the overall program? Won't most of the course work be concerned with the nuts and bolts of helping people rather than philosophical/ideological stuff?
It is a mix, the ideological stuff seems to be front loaded. The practical stuff is in year 2 and 3.
The students in the class suggested that before someone could be hired as a police officer they should have to take and "pass" a Harvard Implicit Bias test.
iris lilies
10-12-16, 5:33pm
It is a mix, the ideological stuff seems to be front loaded. The practical stuff is in year 2 and 3.
The students in the class suggested that before someone could be hired as a police officer they should have to take and "pass" a Harvard Implicit Bias test.
Do these same yakkers have any idea what bias tests police academy applicants and graduates alike DO already take? Or, are they assuming that there are no bias tests and that they, the students, have a brilliant new idea?
Ultralight
10-12-16, 7:58pm
Do these same yakkers have any idea what bias tests police academy applicants and graduates alike DO already take? Or, are they assuming that there are no bias tests and that they, the students, have a brilliant new idea?
The professor shut them down and said: "Should all Social Workers take the bias tests?"
Do these same yakkers have any idea what bias tests police academy applicants and graduates alike DO already take? Or, are they assuming that there are no bias tests and that they, the students, have a brilliant new idea?
Peggy Noonan had a great piece in the Wall Street Journal today that basically concluded that the tragedy of our time is that we are being looked down upon by our inferiors.
Ultralight
10-14-16, 12:33pm
Peggy Noonan had a great piece in the Wall Street Journal today that basically concluded that the tragedy of our time is that we are being looked down upon by our inferiors.
We were talking about some stats in class, like 67% of Americans think those are welfare are mostly just lazy, among other things like how 74% of Americans supported Welfare Reform in the 1990s and that a majority of Americans think Christianity should directly inform our laws, etc.
And a SJW in the class said that these majorities are comprised of people who have been duped by the media/media owners.
Something about this did not seem quite right to me even while I think there is a kernel of truth to it.
And a SJW in the class said that these majorities are comprised of people who have been duped by the media/media owners.
Something about this did not seem quite right to me...
Because your SJW is denying their agency.
Ultralight
10-14-16, 1:38pm
Because your SJW is denying their agency.
Well, to me I just thought (and said aloud) "maybe these policies and opinions we are so critical of are just democracy in action."
SJW was like: "No, they have been fooled and are ill-informed. That is why they believe what they do and vote the way they do."
ApatheticNoMore
10-14-16, 2:06pm
Well how much time do you think anyone has to become super expert in some political issue or other. Life is hard, incredibly so. You just have time because you goof off at work reading politics. Or maybe that's me.
Most working people's interests meanwhile would probably be better served by having more people on welfare, that's less people competing with them for jobs (though maybe not significantly so, since there are so many other sources of competition).
SJW was like: "No, they have been fooled and are ill-informed. That is why they believe what they do and vote the way they do."
I think that's where a lot of the bitter clingers/basket of deplorables sneer comes from. It's easier to simply disdain the people who disagree with you than to try understanding them. Despite the many recent failures and mistakes of our elites (of both parties), the insistence remains that they have the superior vision and are shocked when the people they have a sort of divine right to govern dissent. You see it in the rise of Trump and Sanders, the Brexit vote, and some of the Wikileaked emails of the Democratic party leadership putting their thumb on the scale during the primaries, and babbling away about the need for a "Catholic Spring". It all has a sort of Marie Antoinette ring to it.
Ultralight
10-14-16, 2:21pm
I think that's where a lot of the bitter clingers/basket of deplorables sneer comes from. It's easier to simply disdain the people who disagree with you than to try understanding them. Despite the many recent failures and mistakes of our elites (of both parties), the insistence remains that they have the superior vision and are shocked when the people they have a sort of divine right to govern dissent. You see it in the rise of Trump and Sanders, the Brexit vote, and some of the Wikileaked emails of the Democratic party leadership putting their thumb on the scale during the primaries, and babbling away about the need for a "Catholic Spring". It all has a sort of Marie Antoinette ring to it.
The SJW seemed to say it with much pity.
iris lilies
10-14-16, 2:24pm
I ran across this article from the inventor of the term "virtue signaling." This activity, openly and loudly declaring support for the politically correct position, is something I see daily in my meandering around the internet.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/i-invented-virtue-signalling-now-its-taking-over-the-world/
This seems with this discussion in that the virtue signallers are the messengers of our superiors who govern us distasteful ignoramuses.
Ultralight
10-14-16, 2:26pm
I ran scross this article from the inventor of the term "virtue signaling." This activity, openly and loudly declaring support for the politically correct position, is something I see daily in my meandering around the internet.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/i-invented-virtue-signalling-now-its-taking-over-the-world/
i see this fittng in with this discussion in that the virtue signallers are the lapdogs of our supiors who govern us.
This link SFW?
The SJW seemed to say it with much pity.
Who was it who said there is no greater condescension than pity?
iris lilies
10-14-16, 2:30pm
This link SFW?
Whot?
Now you lost me. SFW I cannt grok.
Ultralight
10-14-16, 2:42pm
Whot?
Now you lost me. SFW I cannt grok.
Safe For Work.
iris lilies
10-14-16, 2:55pm
Safe For Work.
Oh yeah, I,forgot that. Dont work now, haha.
yea, this is a Spectator article, British and proper and SFW?
Nothing new--when was the phrase "holier than thou" invented? People have been being smugly condescending forever. Sometimes, you just can't help it :~).
Nothing new--when was the phrase "holier than thou" invented? People have been being smugly condescending forever. Sometimes, you just can't help it :~).I'm surprised to see that the term is new because the act it describes has indeed been around forever, although I always called it something else when I'd see it in discussions about not shopping at Wal Mart or refusing to live in conservative areas.
Ultralight
10-14-16, 3:53pm
I think refusing to live in a conservative area might be different. Being around like-minded people brings one some comfort -- not to say you shouldn't mix it up sometimes too though.
Teacher Terry
10-14-16, 5:00pm
When I lived in KS the people were nice but it is a very conservative area and that was difficult. There were signs everywhere against abortion, etc. Even though I live in the sin state now there are a fair amount of conservatives but enough people that are not so that works for me.
I think refusing to live in a conservative area might be different. Being around like-minded people brings one some comfort -- not to say you shouldn't mix it up sometimes too though.
I'm not entirely sure there's such a thing as completely conservative or liberal areas (except maybe college "safe spaces"). I live in a county considered one of the reddest in the country (the New Yorker featured us in a cartoon). But we also cough up the second or third largest total contribution each year to Democratic candidates.
Even living in a bright red zone, you see less like-mindedness than you might expect. I know people on the right who range from wanting to win one for the Groper to people who are hoping that a surprise Evan Mcmullin win in Utah could result in the election getting thrown into the House of Representatives. We also have our share of diehard Sandernistas and Hilary fans (who seem understandably smug as of late).
I kind of like it that way. It's still possible, even at this late date, to enjoy a civil argument with my neighbors.
Ultralight
10-18-16, 7:59am
"Moral relativism" and "cultural competency"...
My fellow lefties and university "intellectuals" and I often lock horns over this.
And last night was no exception.
The topic of last night's class was how to develop cultural competency.
I had never heard the term before. Any of you all encounter it in school or the workplace?
iris lilies
10-18-16, 11:11am
"Moral relativism" and "cultural competency"...
My fellow lefties and university "intellectuals" and I often lock horns over this.
And last night was no exception.
The topic of last night's class was how to develop cultural competency.
I had never heard the term before. Any of you all encounter it in school or the workplace?
No I Didnt know that exact phrase, but I know that human services workers have to be culturally aware.
Here is is the definition from the National Educatinal Association:
Cultural competence is having an awareness of one's own cultural identity and views about difference, and the ability to learn and build on the varying cultural and community norms of students and their families.
"Moral relativism" and "cultural competency"...
My fellow lefties and university "intellectuals" and I often lock horns over this.
And last night was no exception.
The topic of last night's class was how to develop cultural competency.
I had never heard the term before. Any of you all encounter it in school or the workplace?
"Cultural Competency" is a virtue the Left likes to assign to itself.
"Moral Relativism" is a vice the Right likes to assign to the Left.
Cultural competency - it's a requirement where I work. Every new employee goes to an eight hour class on that topic. From what I picked up, it simply means that we are sensitive to other cultures and recognize that our culture is not the only right way to think and live.
The only people who were upset by the class were those who seemed to not understand that many of their own viewpoints were simply a part of their own culture. We humans like to believe that there's one right way to think and live. We have problems with thinking in the gray areas.
Ultralight
10-18-16, 12:33pm
My question amongst the class and its discussion of cultural competency and multiculturalism was this:
"Where -- especially at the macro level, but also on the mezzo and micro levels -- do we allow for the criticism of bad ideas in a culture?"
Class erupted.
iris lilies
10-18-16, 1:14pm
My question amongst the class and its discussion of cultural competency and multiculturalism was this:
"Where -- especially at the macro level, but also on the mezzo and micro levels -- do we allow for the criticism of bad ideas in a culture?"
Class erupted.
Thats a good question, and standards of family care have to be set regardless of cultural norms.
But I think it is likely that "bad" cultural practices are aberrant to the culture. Well, mostly. Female circumcision is one such practice. Is that aberrant in the Somali tribal culture? I don't know although I know that enormous Western resources are thrown at the practice to change that culture. It wasnt aberrant a generation ago there, is it now?
My question amongst the class and its discussion of cultural competency and multiculturalism was this:
"Where -- especially at the macro level, but also on the mezzo and micro levels -- do we allow for the criticism of bad ideas in a culture?"
Class erupted.
Is the prevailing orthodoxy that other cultures are above criticism while you-know-who's culture is beneath contempt?
That different standards of "good" and "bad" should be applied to different cultures; or that the application of any standard in itself constitutes a form of aggression? That passing judgment on another culture's practices in the areas of slavery, infanticide or honor killing reflect a failure on your part to check your privilege?
That there are certain ideas that must never be given voice?
iris lilies
10-18-16, 2:13pm
Crazy as it seems, I kind of agree with you on this.
Also: Write a book, LDAHL. You have the chops and some interesting ideas.
no, I feel a role as guest commentator for National Review is more up his alley.
ApatheticNoMore
10-18-16, 2:15pm
I wouldn't assume minority cultures are overall any worse than the dominant culture. So there really is no high horse on which to criticize some whole culture or something.
Thats a good question, and standards of family care have to be set regardless of cultural norms.
yes practices can be criticized. But again I really doubt these are exclusive to any cultural group. Child abuse for instance, cross-cultural (probably some linkage with socioeconomic status but spans the range to some degree I'm sure). Yea female genital mutilation is f'ed up, I can't imagine it actually be much of an issue in the U.S. though but maybe it is somewhere in the country.
no, I feel a role as guest commentator for National Review is more up his alley.
I'll bet their office lunches are a blast.
I wouldn't assume minority cultures are overall any worse than the dominant culture. So there really is no high horse on which to criticize some whole culture or something.
President Obama himself admonished us about getting on our high horse about ISIS when the Crusades happened practically yesterday.
iris lilies
10-18-16, 2:31pm
I wouldn't assume minority cultures are overall any worse than the dominant culture. So there really is no high horse on which to criticize some whole culture or something.
yes practices can be criticized. But again I really doubt these are exclusive to any cultural group. Child abuse for instance, cross-cultural (probably some linkage with socioeconomic status but spans the range to some degree I'm sure). Yea female genital mutilation is f'ed up, I can't imagine it actually be much of an issue in the U.S. though but maybe it is somewhere in the country.
Since I am surrounded by Somali immigrants, I would bet the issue has come up in my city. certainly the honor killing thing came up years ago. A Muslim father killed his daughter here for running around.
Ultralight
10-18-16, 2:32pm
Is the prevailing orthodoxy that other cultures are above criticism while you-know-who's culture is beneath contempt?
That different standards of "good" and "bad" should be applied to different cultures; or that the application of any standard in itself constitutes a form of aggression? That passing judgment on another culture's practices in the areas of slavery, infanticide or honor killing reflect a failure on your part to check your privilege?
That there are certain ideas that must never be given voice?
Well, the prof said: "Who are we to say what is right or wrong?"
I advocate that there are bad ideas embedded in many cultures and we should be free to criticize them and make laws and dole out punishment if needed regarding some of these bad ideas/practices in various cultures.
I will say this, from what I have seen, traditional "Whiteness" is the only culture that can be critiqued according to orthodoxy.
Well, the prof said: "Who are we to say what is right or wrong?"
Doesn't that kind of negate any reason for you having the class in the first place?
Ultralight
10-18-16, 2:48pm
Doesn't that kind of negate any reason for you having the class in the first place?
I know. I know. Believe me, I know.
When any SJWs talk about moral relativism and say this sort of thing I just want to say: "Well, you might as well go home, turn on the idiot box, and crack open a gallon of ice cream. What's the point!?"
Ultralight
10-18-16, 2:49pm
I'll bet their office lunches are a blast.
I'd like to be a fly on the wall at a NR office lunch!
iris lilies
10-18-16, 3:06pm
About the classroom discussion of cultural relativism, this is laying the theoretical groundwork for social workers to do their hands on work. it is a good thing in the big picture that no human services worker assumes their way is the only highway.
But where the rubber meets the road is in figuring out what cultural norms are supportive of family life and which ones are "bad." There is no one size fits all for this. Professional judgement takes over.
ApatheticNoMore
10-18-16, 3:12pm
I advocate that there are bad ideas embedded in many cultures and we should be free to criticize them and make laws and dole out punishment if needed regarding some of these bad ideas/practices in various cultures.
yea if they involve child abuse or abuse of others (beating one's spouse or something). In most cases don't such laws already exist though? Although I'd probably take it further than the laws do in terms of how you can treat children.
ApatheticNoMore
10-18-16, 3:17pm
About the classroom discussion of cultural relativism, this is laying the theoretical groundwork for social workers to do their hands on work. it is a good thing in the big picture that no human services worker assumes their way is the only highway.
yes
But where the rubber meets the road is in figuring out what cultural norms are supportive of family life and which ones are "bad." There is no one size fits all for this. Professional judgement takes over.
yea but the thing is there seem to be a LOT of social programs aimed at truly bad household situations, teaching parents not to abuse their kids etc.. So I really don't think the field out there is actually all: "anything goes!".
I used to work for a county government in rural Wisconsin that had a significant Amish population. Their practices relating to corporal punishment of children, while probably close to mainstream fifty years ago, resulted in kids sometimes showing up for school or doctor appointments with bruises. This triggered (by law) involvement with law enforcement and social services. As I recall, only really bad cases got prosecuted and the rest got some kind of counseling.
Ultralight
10-18-16, 4:29pm
Iris Lilies, you are really getting back to your liberal roots today. :)
iris lilies
10-18-16, 8:55pm
Iris Lilies, you are really getting back to your liberal roots today. :)
i dont see how that is a liberal stance.
I sure do NOt want social workers determining that me, showing my 10 year old how to use a gun safely and taking him/her on hunting trips is "bad." And some would, you know, if not tempered by the cultural literacy.
I know. I know. Believe me, I know.
When any SJWs talk about moral relativism and say this sort of thing I just want to say: "Well, you might as well go home, turn on the idiot box, and crack open a gallon of ice cream. What's the point!?"
It's been said a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged by reality.
Do you sometimes get the feeling you're being mugged by unreality?
Ultralight
10-19-16, 9:49am
It's been said a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged by reality.
I disagree with this statement.
Do you sometimes get the feeling you're being mugged by unreality?
Yes, daily.
Zoe Girl
10-19-16, 10:00am
I am really liberal, and pretty much always have been. I have been tempered by reality of working where I work but not fundamentally changed. The only thing I have really changed is feeling that every family can be put back together and that is in the best interests, I feel it is case by case that children should be reunited.
On the gun thing, I don't like them but I married into a family of hunters. So I always knew they would be around guns and couldn't ask for them all to be put away. I asked for the kids to have hunter safety of course, However when my son was struggling with mental illness I wish there was a way I could talk to my ex and have some influence over not having guns in his house while our son was unstable. I was told that I had no way of doing anything, and I felt the situation was different due to the mental illness factors at that time.
My brother worked for social services in a county with high unemployment, drug use, and gang activity. In his last job he was the social services person who would help determine if a home was unfit for children and was often aided by the local police. He occasionally had threats of violence and back in the day of landlines, had to have an unlisted number. I have no solid opinions on the rights or wrongs of this and actually do not have a high opinion of social services from other experiences, but I sure would not want to do that sort of work. It left my brother with less than a positive view of humanity, generally speaking.
I've worked as a psych nurse for almost 20 years. The last 7 with court ordered patients. 2 years before that in a regional jail.
I've seen it all. Lots of reality kicks me every day.
I'm as liberal as they come. Social democrat actually is closest to my leanings.
I believe that America's version of conservatism creates a lot of our social problems.
iris lilies
10-19-16, 1:56pm
I've worked as a psych nurse for almost 20 years. The last 7 with court ordered patients. 2 years before that in a regional jail.
I've seen it all. Lots of reality kicks me every day.
I'm as liberal as they come. Social democrat actually is closest to my leanings.
I believe that America's version of conservatism creates a lot of our social problems.
ok, I'll bite.
For my sake, lets leave off money from this this argument because I think its a matter of agreeing how MUCH money to throw at these social ills, not whether to throw money at them. Thats my request but I suppose you do not have to honor it.
I would just like to have a discussion without the argument that America refuses to throw enough money at social problems.
Money aside, how does "conservarism" create the social social problems?
Example 1
We don't have health insurance that's provided to everyone the way they do in the Western European countries. Therefore as soon as someone is sick with an illness that takes them away from their job, they stand to risk their income as well as their insurance. Homelessness is just around the corner. I meet people in this situation daily.
( i'm sure I have a lot more to say about this - but now I'm gonna go to sleep because I'm working at 7 pm - night shift - tonight. Then sleeping a few hours. Then preparing to work my regular schedule for the next 3 day shifts for 12 hours each. Yes I'm crazy. So it could be quite a while until I return to this forum.)
iris lilies
10-20-16, 8:59pm
Example 1
We don't have health insurance that's provided to everyone the way they do in the Western European countries. Therefore as soon as someone is sick with an illness that takes them away from their job, they stand to risk their income as well as their insurance. Homelessness is just around the corner. I meet people in this situation daily.
Publicly funded healthcare is provided on a bigger scale in Western Euopean countries than in the
U.S., but it IS provided here. There are many examples of it, Medicare, , Medicaid, and ACA subsidies to name a few. In your example, the person who lost his job can go on Medicaid in your state. To pretend that he doesnt have an option for health care is not an honest presentation of facts.
If this same person lost his job due to illness and inability to work, there are many programs, some of them publicly funded, to help him with that although if there are no dependent children in the house, the prospects are less robust.
But in the big picture, employers do not have to pay employees who never come to work. Do you think they should? As a conservative, I do hold the opionion that employees need to attend work in order to be paid. After reasonable accomodations have been exhausted for an absent employee, there is no obligation for an employer to pay an absent employee. Employers really cant afford to pay legions of people who do not work for them.
This all ties to the "money" aspect that I was hoping to avoid.
I do not know what conservative values, other than forcing taxpayers to give up more of their money, cause all of these social problems you see.
I'm actually in favor of a universal basic income. No time to expound right now - but there you go.
I'll be back sometime soon ...
greenclaire
10-21-16, 5:08am
I'm actually in favor of a universal basic income.
Me too. Would love to hear your thoughts on it when you have more time.
I keep looking at this thread but not being 100% sure about what exactly American style conservatism is without involving money is proving a stumbling block. If we're allowed to talk money and government involvement with that money I could write an essay!
Me too. Would love to hear your thoughts on it when you have more time.
I keep looking at this thread but not being 100% sure about what exactly American style conservatism is without involving money is proving a stumbling block. If we're allowed to talk money and government involvement with that money I could write an essay!
I think the primary difference between (the American) versions of "liberal" and "conservative" is that liberals view social problems through a political lens and conservatives view them through a cultural lens. A liberal might look at problems like the decline of the family, poor educational outcomes, crime or addiction as addressable with the right combination of resources and a bit of social engineering. A conservative is more likely to believe that politics is downstream from culture, and that unless people are willing to accept responsibility for themselves and others, no amount of government coaxing and coercion is likely to solve our problems.
There is probably some validity to both viewpoints, but the two perspectives sometimes make it different to find common ground.
I think the primary difference between (the American) versions of "liberal" and "conservative" is that liberals view social problems through a political lens and conservatives view them through a cultural lens. A liberal might look at problems like the decline of the family, poor educational outcomes, crime or addiction as addressable with the right combination of resources and a bit of social engineering. A conservative is more likely to believe that politics is downstream from culture, and that unless people are willing to accept responsibility for themselves and others, no amount of government coaxing and coercion is likely to solve our problems.
That's a pretty good definition for a lot of issues, but there are some ideologies that are a part of each that go a little deeper. Things like abortion, same sex marriage, gun control, and maybe national defense.
I've seen a couple of recent shows on artificial intelligence and robotics. One was a recent 60 minutes which was very good. I unfortunately cannot remember some specifics, but they included guys like Elon Musk and quotes from Stephen Hawking. There was a point made that the day may very come come in the near future where machination will replace so many jobs that there just won't be enough work to provide full employment. In which case a universal basic income might be the only way to provide basic needs for a first world population. It may sound like science fiction, but not to me. There may come a day before too long that employment opportunities beyond service jobs and low wages just will not exist, somewhat regardless of a person's education and experience.
The rust belt factory jobs and coal mines are not going to come back regardless of who is elected. Possibly things will work out naturally, but someone truly needs some fresh ideas on how to revitalize the lagging middle class.
That's a pretty good definition for a lot of issues, but there are some ideologies that are a part of each that go a little deeper. Things like abortion, same sex marriage, gun control, and maybe national defense.
I've seen a couple of recent shows on artificial intelligence and robotics. One was a recent 60 minutes which was very good. I unfortunately cannot remember some specifics, but they included guys like Elon Musk and quotes from Stephen Hawking. There was a point made that the day may very come come in the near future where machination will replace so many jobs that there just won't be enough work to provide full employment. In which case a universal basic income might be the only way to provide basic needs for a first world population. It may sound like science fiction, but not to me. There may come a day before too long that employment opportunities beyond service jobs and low wages just will not exist, somewhat regardless of a person's education and experience.
The rust belt factory jobs and coal mines are not going to come back regardless of who is elected. Possibly things will work out naturally, but someone truly needs some fresh ideas on how to revitalize the lagging middle class.
I think even the issues you cite can fall along a politics vs. culture spectrum because culture runs deeper than ideology. People holding "traditional" cultural values in areas like where life begins or what marriage means might be resistant to political decisions aimed at forcing them to pay for, recognize or otherwise participate in the new political consensus. People favoring individual freedom as a cultural value might be skeptical of laws aimed at guns, drugs or even unkind words.
I seem to remember (I think it was during the Nixon years) that there was a debate on the topic of a basic income policy. A lot of conservatives thought it might be a good alternative to the existing structure of strings-attached social programs. A lot of liberals were reluctant to give up the ability to use such programs to influence their clients. Some on both sides worried that politics might degrade into a sort of auction process.
iris lilies
10-21-16, 11:38am
I'm actually in favor of a universal basic income. No time to expound right now - but there you go.
I'll be back sometime soon ...
We can talk about money if we talk about universal basic income. But then, we have abandoned the above discussin, thats ok with me.
There are things I like about UBI assuming it replaces existing social welfare programs. If this isnt the case with you proponents, then you have to explain to me what the point of UBI is.
I have one overarching concern, and anyone who is infavor of universal income can speak to it: what happens when mom blows the monthly paycheck at the boats? There is no momey for food, rent, incidentals for the family then. None. How does the kinder, gentler world of UBI deal with that situation? No proponent of UBI has ever answered that for me, I just do not Get it.
Welfare benefits are doled out in packages and at intervals because a percentage of the population is unable to conduct their life business in safe ways that benefit their family.if you just give them cash that is supposed to go for rent and food, it wont go to those essentials. Their children suffer. How do you get around that?
keep in mind that some proposals for Universal Basic Income have everyone receiving the benefit. Even those 1% monstors! How does that work for you?
Universal Basic Income is an interesting thought. Can government payments control behavior? I doubt it, even with the structure of Aid for Dependent Children and Title 1 and Title 1x and the military there are ways around doing the "right" thing. I do not know the answer, I always tend to think fully funding Title 1 would have changed many things in this world in the last several decades. I had also thought that "Welfare to Work" should have had a parenting education component....So clearly I am still an idealist thinking people can be educated and that education makes a difference.
iris lilies
10-21-16, 1:30pm
Universal Basic Income is an interesting thought. Can government payments control behavior? I doubt it, even with the structure of Aid for Dependent Children and Title 1 and Title 1x and the military there are ways around doing the "right" thing. I do not know the answer, I always tend to think fully funding Title 1 would have changed many things in this world in the last several decades. I had also thought that "Welfare to Work" should have had a parenting education component....So clearly I am still an idealist thinking people can be educated and that education makes a difference.
Education makes a difference but it is not THE solution. The thing is, there is no single solution. There is actually no solution to eradicate poverty, there is only some help for some people sometimes.
The poor will always be with us. How do you keep their kids fed, clothed, and housed with UBI when mom is hell bent at winning in the boats? I am not willing for my tax dollars to go to mommy's entertainment AS WELL AS fund her rent and food through housing programs and SNAP programs.Chose one.
The poor will always be with us. How do you keep their kids fed, clothed, and housed with UBI when mom is hell bent at winning in the boats? I am not willing for my tax dollars to go to mommy's entertainment AS WELL AS fund her rent and food through housing programs and SNAP programs.Chose one.
Huh?
iris lilies
10-21-16, 3:34pm
Huh?
Ths is the context of Universal Basic Income. Everyone gets cash money. But does the welfare go beyond that?
Ths is the count text of Universal Basic Income. Everyone gets cash money. But does the welfare go beynd that?
By "boats" are you referring to riverboat casinos?
I understand what you mean, though. Any UBI program would probably need some kind of provision for determining certain people incompetent to manage their own affairs.
iris lilies
10-21-16, 4:00pm
By "boats" are you referring to riverboat casinos?
I understand what you mean, though. Any UBI program would probably need some kind of provision for determining certain people incompetent to manage their own affairs.
oh yes, boats=casinos. Our gambling establishments are river based here.
I think most mothers receiving things like WIC and SNAP are working really hard to feed their kids. When I was teaching on the Marine Corps airbase, I had Marine families that were on WIC because groceries were so expensive.
Teacher Terry
10-21-16, 6:21pm
The only way to afford basic income is to get rid of welfare, etc. I worked with welfare clients as a SW and very few blew their $ and couldn't house/feed their kids. In Wis they couldn't blow their food stamps $ but got a basic allowance that they had to pay their rent from, etc. I would not want rich people to get it and if they did not they would be against it. If a parent was not providing for their child most likely social services would step in and the child would be in a foster home. I think we still need programs to teach people how to budget, etc. parenting skills though. Poverty is a tough problem. I also think that the poverty of people in different neighborhoods affects the outcome. If you are poor it is much easier, safer to be in Wis in a town of 100k then to be in a Chicago ghetto.
Ultralight
10-25-16, 7:28am
Hey Iris Lilies:
I busted out your tough, personal question about immigration/refugees in class last night.
The lecture was on international social work and centered around refugees. Of course, everyone in the class was gung ho about letting refugees in. They wanted to simplify the immigration process to move people in quicker, generally speed it up, provide massive amounts of resources, change public opinion, etc.
So I said to them: "Let's personalize this. I will use myself as an example. I make a workin' man's wage of about $40-someting-K a year. I don't have any kids yet, no wife, and much of the space in my apartment is unused. I could house, feed, and clothe a refugee or two if I wanted. But even if I could legally, I am not so sure I would. Does that mean I should be condemned as greedy and anti-refugee? Why don't we all ask ourselves if we'd give up some of our wages to refugees and invite them into our homes...would we be so welcoming to the refugees were this the case?"
Let me tell ya: People were up in arms. Up in arms!
(Also: If there was some sort of "host a refugee until they get back on their feet" program, I'd probably actually be quite open to welcoming someone into my apartment and to helping them get started here.)
But nonetheless, when the issue is personalized many people balked at the proposition and/or immediately started coming up with excuses galore as to why they could not host a refugee in their home.
My family's church sponsored Vietnamese refugees back in the 70's. They had a house and one family (large extended) would be sponsored for a couple years through getting jobs, some education, and acclimating to the culture. Then we would get another family. It seemed to work very well, but it also took a church to support 1 family at a time with a couple years to be self supporting. I don't have an answer on the refugee issue, the images of war of course horrify me, and as a liberal I err on the side of doing more and caring more. However I also live in the city, I see that schools are not given a break on the expectations for students (meaning testing scores) even if the class size swells and kids don't speak English or understand modern plumbing. I don't have space to personally host someone, I would however be fine with refugees as neighbors, in my schools, and in my workplace, while understanding first hand that it is a lot of work.
Hey Iris Lilies:
I busted out your tough, personal question about immigration/refugees in class last night.
The lecture was on international social work and centered around refugees. Of course, everyone in the class was gung ho about letting refugees in. They wanted to simplify the immigration process to move people in quicker, generally speed it up, provide massive amounts of resources, change public opinion, etc.
So I said to them: "Let's personalize this. I will use myself as an example. I make a workin' man's wage of about $40-someting-K a year. I don't have any kids yet, no wife, and much of the space in my apartment is unused. I could house, feed, and clothe a refugee or two if I wanted. But even if I could legally, I am not so sure I would. Does that mean I should be condemned as greedy and anti-refugee? Why don't we all ask ourselves if we'd give up some of our wages to refugees and invite them into our homes...would we be so welcoming to the refugees were this the case?"
Let me tell ya: People were up in arms. Up in arms!
(Also: If there was some sort of "host a refugee until they get back on their feet" program, I'd probably actually be quite open to welcoming someone into my apartment and to helping them get started here.)
But nonetheless, when the issue is personalized many people balked at the proposition and/or immediately started coming up with excuses galore as to why they could not host a refugee in their home.
It is probably easier to serve one's fellow man in the abstract than in the concrete.
Ultralight
10-25-16, 8:38am
I ask my peers in the program: "Where do we put the refugees' tent city? On the edge of town by the landfill or in your back yards?"
I ask my peers in the program: "Where do we put the refugees' tent city? On the edge of town by the landfill or in your back yards?"
I'm starting to think that in that world you're something of a right-winger.
Ultralight
10-25-16, 9:13am
I'm starting to think that in that world you're something of a right-winger.
Identity crisis!
Identity crisis!
Erasmus said "In the country of the blind, a one-eyed man is king".
Ultralight
10-25-16, 9:25am
No, in all seriousness, I think that the problem of refugees is way more complicated than the simplistic and naive answers my peers give in class (I also think it is way more complicated than "build a wall" or "don't let none of them in here!"). They have no idea where the rubber meets the road. They also do not understand the issue of resources. They think the world has unlimited resources and that all 7 billion people can live lives of American-style abundance.
When they said: "We are so resource rich, we can easily take care of everyone!"
I asked: "Where did those resources come from?"
Want to know their answers? ;)
iris lilies
10-25-16, 9:39am
I do,like the way churches, in ZG' s example, support one family.
Here is St. Louis we have The Internatinal Institue close by. They settle many refugees a year. Our Bosnian population is huge and prosperous. The north Africans, I suspect not as prosperous, at least I dont see their coffee shops, restaurants, building crews, etc. Imjst see them driving cabs and their women shuffling along in long skirts and head coverings.
iris lilies
10-25-16, 9:41am
No, in all seriousness, I think that the problem of refugees is way more complicated than the simplistic and naive answers my peers give in class (I also think it is way more complicated than "build a wall" or "don't let none of them in here!"). They have no idea where the rubber meets the road. They also do not understand the issue of resources. They think the world has unlimited resources and that all 7 billion people can live lives of American-style abundance.
When they said: "We are so resource rich, we can easily take care of everyone!"
I asked: "Where did those resources come from?"
Want to know their answers? ;)
The resources come from someOne else, natch. And probably frm the 1%.
Ultralight
10-25-16, 9:42am
The north Africans, I suspect not as prosperous, at least I dont see their coffee shops, restaurants, building crews, etc. Imjst see them driving cabs and their women shuffling along in long skirts and head coverings.
You would be condemned for saying this in Columbus, OH.
Ultralight
10-25-16, 9:43am
The resources come from someOne else, natch. And probably frm the 1%.
No, I wish.
One person said: "From Volunteers of America and Goodwill stores."
Another said: "I dunno, consumerism?"
iris lilies
10-25-16, 10:44am
You would be condemned for saying this in Columbus, OH.
yet, both are Muslim communities.
sweetana3
10-25-16, 12:36pm
NY Times had a great story about refugees being resettled in Canada. They spoke with one family and their sponsors. Issue 1: The families have to find a way to be self supporting in a year. Unless they learn English, this will be difficult. They are finding it very difficult to learn English and so many daily life issues require it.
2. They are receiving, via social media, a lot of agonizing requests from family left behind for help in getting to Canada. Their sponsors, a church and individuals, talked in depth about it and decided their resources of time and money would not spread any further so someone else would have to step up. A big reason is the family already in CA is taking much more time and effort than they expected. The wife of the refugee family is having a difficult emotional time with this.
3. There is not already an existing med. or lg. size community of similiar refugees that have already navigated the many issues of life in Canada. This can be isolating for a family that does not have communication skills in English.
It is an issue with a great deal of complexity. Language or the capability to acquire language skill is a big stumbling block to becoming successful and self supporting.
That sounds like a very realistic story, Sweetana,and probably more in line with reality than many immigration narratives. Complex issues, indeed.
ApatheticNoMore
10-25-16, 4:22pm
When they said: "We are so resource rich, we can easily take care of everyone!"
I asked: "Where did those resources come from?"
Want to know their answers?
from the kind of wars that have left the middle east in tatters in the first place?
Yea immigration is a complex issue, it doesn't have easy answers. The Syrians are victims, of their government, of the U.S. and it's allies aiding and abetting civil war in their country, of what is likely climate change caused drought etc.. But most places they would resettle in the U.S. are overcrowded already, not enough infrastructure for the existing people as is (transportation infrastructure, schools etc.), not enough affordable housing (hence the massive homeless population of U.S. born people), not enough jobs that pay a living wage (however many of the Syrians who are escaping to the west are highly trained so it won't necessarily be minimum wage jobs they compete for) .
Many of the refugees are single young men, if most of your class consists of single women it's hardly surprising they don't want strange men living in their apartments (refugee families is a bit different) well I suppose we could start a refugee mail order husband business ...
from the kind of wars that have left the middle east in tatters in the first place?
The Greeks against the Persians?
The Romans against the Parthians?
The Byzantines against the Seljuks?
The British against the Ottomans?
Ultralight
11-1-16, 6:48am
I got my first trigger warning from a professor several days ago for the topics to be discussed in class last night.
Anyway, people with PTSD and other issues were permitted to leave as to avoid being triggered.
Someone in class brought up what he felt was the recent trivialization of trigger warnings. He lamented how people are mocking the whole trigger warning thing by saying "Triggered! Triggered! Triggered!" at anything even remotely offensive or controversial.
Someone also pointed out that no one can say what does or doesn't trigger a person.
Someone also pointed out that no one can say what does or doesn't trigger a person.
That being the case, we are left with a choice of taking a vow of silence to avoid any unpleasant association or teaching people to cope with the real world with all it's various sharp edges. I'm not even sure it's possible to create an emotionally sterile environment in a classroom, much less the world at large.
It sounds like there is a range of opinion in the class about trigger warnings and the protection of free speech. It's great that you have a supportive environment to discuss these issues. How people hear what you say as a social worker will have a big impact on the work you do, so social work training has a lot to do with what issues both social workers and clients bring to the table.
Ultralight
11-1-16, 9:25am
It sounds like there is a range of opinion in the class about trigger warnings and the protection of free speech. It's great that you have a supportive environment to discuss these issues.
You can discuss it, but the vibe I am picking up is that asking tough questions or holding a contrary opinion could be bad news for someone -- like socially and/or academically.
You can discuss it, but the vibe I am picking up is that asking tough questions or holding a contrary opinion could be bad news for someone -- like socially and/or academically.When they bring out the soma cart, don't partake!
Ultralight
11-1-16, 9:35am
In class we had two guest speakers.
One was a person with a typical boy's name. They said their pronouns were they, their, them (I think, I am not good with grammar terminology). They identified and trans and queer. The presentation had a lot to do with pronouns and various genders.
I am a Lefty McLeftersen, for sure. But by the end of it my head was spinning.
I wanted to ask if perhaps there was a simpler way to deal with this issue because new pronouns and new genders are being invented all the time apparently. And I (and probably others) can't seem to keep pace.
iris lilies
11-1-16, 9:48am
You can discuss it, but the vibe I am picking up is that asking tough questions or holding a contrary opinion could be bad news for someone -- like socially and/or academically.
I doubt it. Dont play victim. Most professors will appreciate the lone person in the room who asks the difficult questions for class discussion points.
But to be safe, always couch your comments with "part of me wonders about [insert conservative point of view you have learned from Ldahl] ..." or "I sometimes think that [insert somethng Alan has said that makes sense to you] to show that while your mind wonders to the forbidden dark side at times, you are fully in control to pull back and walk the narrow line of The Left.
Ultralight
11-1-16, 10:07am
I doubt it. Dont play victim. Most professors will appreciate the lone person in the room who asks the difficult questions for class discussion points.
But to be safe, always couch your comments with "part of me wonders about [insert conservative point of view you have learned from Ldahl] ..." or "I sometimes think that [insert somethng Alan has said that makes sense to you] to show that while your mind wonders to the forbidden dark side at times, you are fully in control to pull back and walk the narrow line of The Left.
Uh... My academic and possibly my job prospects are on the line here. So I do need to move with caution.
I will say that during our cultural competency/relativism discussion the professor said she "struggles over the idea of female genital mutilation."
My position on it was: FGM is wrong! Up with it, we will not put!
I only use the Socratic method. I ask questions and I often hedge them.
For instance, the other guest speaker was there to talk about sexual assault. Horrible stuff. She talked about how alcohol is often involved in college campus sexual assaults.
I asked some questions. I explained that "I am a lifelong teetotaler and I have never been drunk. But I was wondering how the issue of consent is effected if someone is blacked out drunk but walking around and talking and the other person does not know it or if both people are smashed?"
From what I understand a blacked out drunk person can walk and talk sometimes but not really know what they are doing or not remember much the next day.
The speaker's answer to my question was that "sexual assault is not an accident."
One of her colleagues said that if a woman is drunk she cannot give consent. It is that cut-and-dry.
Really, I don't know much about this stuff. I don't drink. I avoid women who drink more than a glass of wine here or there. And when I have dated women who did get drunk, I did not want to be around them when they were intoxicated. So I would just avoid them entirely.
But I will say this, I have had women come onto me when they were drunk. I declined them and even told them they smell like a brewery. haha
It grosses me out.
Anyway, this furthers my personal feeling that alcohol is bad and we all should just avoid it.
iris lilies
11-1-16, 10:28am
Anyway, this furthers my personal feeling that alcohol is bad and we all should just avoid it.
Is that how things roll, your personal feeling translates to what everyone should do?
most people drink responsibly. Maybe even most ? college kids drink responsibly, I dont know, I havent seen studies, All we hear about is the abuse of alcohol on college campuses. But campus isnt exactly real adult life.
You and Donald Trump share that no drinking thing. His elder brother died an alcoholic and his life was The Donald's cautionary tale.
Ultralight
11-1-16, 10:35am
Is that how things roll, your personal feeling translates to what everyone should do?
most people drink responsibly. Maybe even most ? college kids drink responsibly, I dont know, I havent seen studies, All we hear about is the abuse of alcohol on college campuses. But campus isnt exactly real adult life.
You and Donald Trump share that no drinking thing. His elder brother died an alcoholic and his life was The Donald's cautionary tale.
My opinion is that drinking is a bad idea. My policy (if I could have one) would be that consenting adults should be able to drink as they please.
This is how I feel about many things, such as racism. I think racism is a bad idea. But I think that people should be able to think as they please even if that means thinking racist thoughts.
...
The presentation had a lot to do with pronouns and various genders.
...
I wanted to ask if perhaps there was a simpler way to deal with this issue...
Seems simple enough - just refer to people as they prefer to be referred. If you are uncertain, ask politely.
If that's too tricky, there are plenty of perfectly good languages out there that don't have gender, learn one of those and speak it instead of English.
Ultralight
11-1-16, 10:47am
Seems simple enough - just refer to people as they prefer to be referred. If you are uncertain, ask politely.
If that's too tricky, there are plenty of perfectly good languages out there that don't have gender, learn one of those and speak it instead of English.
Ever have trouble remembering someone's name? Or perhaps something they told you about themselves, like that they enjoy playing canasta or they prefer lime-essence La Croix?
It is hard to remember things. My middle-aged brain ain't what it used to be. Old habits die hard, and to slip up with pronouns can be remarkably easy to do.
Ever have trouble remembering someone's name? Or perhaps something they told you about themselves, like that they enjoy playing canasta or they prefer lime-essence La Croix?
It is hard to remember things. My middle-aged brain ain't what it used to be. Old habits die hard, and to slip up with pronouns can be remarkably easy to do.
Maybe social worker isn't the best fit for you. Would your employer pay for law school? That might be a better fit, and a higher use of your abilities.
Ultralight
11-1-16, 11:32am
I am going to give the pronouns my best effort.
Being in school for social work has not changed my feelings about helping and/or empowering people. But it has illuminated a larger problem in academe -- the threat to freedom of speech and the issue of thoughtcrime.
For instance, a fellow social work student told me that "criticism drives discrimination."
ApatheticNoMore
11-1-16, 12:12pm
But it has illuminated a larger problem in academe -- the threat to freedom of speech and the issue of thoughtcrime.
in a few specific areas of academe maybe (I wouldn't even think it generalizes across colleges frankly), even so it seems like the worlds ultimate "1st world problem" if ever there was one.
I am going to give the pronouns my best effort.
Being in school for social work has not changed my feelings about helping and/or empowering people. But it has illuminated a larger problem in academe -- the threat to freedom of speech and the issue of thoughtcrime.
For instance, a fellow social work student told me that "criticism drives discrimination."
That goes well with "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, ignorance is Strength".
I wonder if anyone publishes a ranking of colleges by level of PC indoctrination. I would think a lot of prospective students and their families might want to avoid institutions that work to actively suppress their critical faculties.
Ultralight
11-1-16, 12:58pm
This is off tangent, but on topic (social work classes).
I am doing projects in two of my three classes on Mindfulness Meditation -- one is about stress reduction. The other is about alleviating depression.
The research out there is rather overwhelming. It supports mindfulness meditation for a wide range of mental health issues and can be used in many sorts of social work contexts.
For the past ten months (and one day) I have been meditating 20 minutes a day, every day. I have not missed a single day yet. And there have been some days when I went longer than 20 minutes.
I am able to reflect on my personal experiences in this and they really mirror the effects in the research.
This is especially true for my impulse control and my blues.
Though I'd say the "metacognition" (thinking about thinking) has been quite powerful too.
Having this structure to study and learn about meditation and mental health has been quite rewarding!
Ultralight
11-1-16, 1:00pm
That goes well with "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, ignorance is Strength".
I wonder if anyone publishes a ranking of colleges by level of PC indoctrination. I would think a lot of prospective students and their families might want to avoid institutions that work to actively suppress their critical faculties.
I have been meaning to return to 1984 and give it another read. This past summer I reread Fahrenheit 451.
I feel like squishing ideas out of the minds of students is similar to burning books.
Ever have trouble remembering someone's name? ...
It is hard to remember things. My middle-aged brain ain't what it used to be. Old habits die hard, and to slip up with pronouns can be remarkably easy to do.
I'm likely a bit more middle-aged than you are. I can barely remember my own name, and I have a cognitive issue that causes me trouble remembering names of people unless I hear their voice.
It is not too difficult to construct sentences in English to work around forgetting names and pronouns, while remaining polite. Someone with all that schoolin' shouldn't find it troubling.
I wonder if anyone publishes a ranking of colleges by level of PC indoctrination. I would think a lot of prospective students and their families might want to avoid institutions that work to actively suppress their critical faculties.
My daughter was admitted to Oberlin, and decided after her visit there to decline their kind offer. It was far too safe-spacey/trigger-warning/mind-controlling.
Ultralight
11-1-16, 1:11pm
It is not too difficult to construct sentences in English to work around forgetting names and pronouns, while remaining polite. Someone with all that schoolin' shouldn't find it troubling.
Now this is the simpler solution I was alluding to earlier!
I feel like squishing ideas out of the minds of students is similar to burning books.
My question is what happens to these intellectually gelded kids when they leave school? How do you work with or for people who aren't particularly interested in correcting historical social injustices through their treatment of you?
My daughter was admitted to Oberlin, and decided after her visit there to decline their kind offer. It was far too safe-spacey/trigger-warning/mind-controlling.
Speaking as a dad, it would be hard to justify spending big bucks for that when your kid could defect to North Korea for free.
Ultralight
11-1-16, 1:31pm
Speaking as a dad, it would be hard to justify spending big bucks for that when your kid could defect to North Korea for free.
Funny, but not accurate! LOL
Ultralight
11-1-16, 1:39pm
My question is what happens to these intellectually gelded kids when they leave school? How do you work with or for people who aren't particularly interested in correcting historical social injustices through their treatment of you?
I was wondering the same thing. The Trans Queer speaker in the class said that it was wrong to ask someone their "preferred pronouns" because an individual's pronouns are "mandatory."
Would most employers go along with that? Most colleagues at a workplace? I dunno.
But I also think it is possible that with the right amount of lobbying, bad press, tenacity, etc. employers could be pressured into conforming with things like this pronoun issue.
Also, some big employers could offer safe spaces or provide trigger warnings before office parties (gender neutral holiday hats) or meetings (address the crowd as "folks" and not "ladies and gentlemen").
Then the media would tout them as heroes.
The next step would be most other employers jumping on board or even some sort of legislation.
But I dunno. I am not an expert on this.
Back in my day, I think social justice was more about bread & butter, so to speak.
I am still a bread & butter guy. I dig universal healthcare, environmentalism, peace, public support of the arts, taxing the rich, free speech, civil liberty, etc.
I was wondering the same thing. The Trans Queer speaker in the class said that it was wrong to ask someone their "preferred pronouns" because an individual's pronouns are "mandatory."
Odd. Asking about preferred pronouns is quite the expected thing in the LGBTQSPQR community I interact with.
What does "mandatory" mean in this context? I mean, what sort of verbal interactions does the speaker envision?
Ultralight
11-1-16, 2:42pm
Odd. Asking about preferred pronouns is quite the expected thing in the LGBTQSPQR community I interact with.
What does "mandatory" mean in this context? I mean, what sort of verbal interactions does the speaker envision?
I intend to do my best to avoid using gendered language at all.
But as to the speaker's interactions envisioned, I don't know. I can't speak for them.
But suppose they are at work somewhere, and a coworker calls them "he" and they are like "actually, call me they, them, their."
The coworkers could be like, "Okay dude, will do!"
Then they are like, "Don't call me dude!"
Coworkers says: "Okay, sorry."
Maybe that is it. But maybe it isn't it. Maybe this is a daily thing with lots of people over and over.
Is it worth it? For some, probably. Others? I dunno.
Ultimately I don't know.
Wouldn't it just be simpler to go back to "thee thou thy" for everybody so we don't need to keep track of everybody's proclivities?
Ultralight
11-1-16, 3:17pm
Wouldn't it just be simpler to go back to "thee thou thy" for everybody so we don't need to keep track of everybody's proclivities?
I actually like this idea! Very minimalist. :)
iris lilies
11-1-16, 4:05pm
DH regularly calls pets who we well know their gender "it." He says its becUse the German doesnt rexognize gender or some isch thing, he has an excuse. But I wonder if he just can't remember their gender. Recently he called his baby niece "it" and then backtracked to say that the baby is an "it." Maybe we should refer to everyone as "it."
I am with UL, but for close friends I might not remember which pronoun I am supposed to use.
He says its becUse the German doesnt rexognize gender o
He's pulling your leg. German is full of gender, and in fact was one of the hardest things for me to memorize. Like why is a women (Frau) feminine, but a girl (madchen) is an it? Why is a hat and a table male? A dog is always male, a cat is always female. You just have to memorize these things, there is no rhyme nor reason.
iris lilies
11-1-16, 8:31pm
He's pulling your leg. German is full of gender, and in fact was one of the hardest things for me to memorize. Like why is a women (Frau) feminine, but a girl (madchen) is an it? Why is a hat and a table male? A dog is always male, a cat is always female. You just have to memorize these things, there is no rhyme nor reason.
Haha, ok, but if a girl is an "it" then if my DH calls his baby niece "it" thats no so bad?
ok, that "dog is always male" thing may explain some of DH's problems. his mother is a German native speaker and when he was small, her English was terrible. Maybe he gave up on gendering pets. Or sonce they lived n a farm, maybe all a imals were "it" just easier.
Ultralight
11-14-16, 1:05pm
Part of my class tonight will be dedicated to "processing the election." It will be one hour of the 3 hour class, give or take.
Teacher Terry
11-14-16, 2:47pm
Collages need to be active in helping their students. Never before have entire groups of people been afraid of their president. NOt unhappy with the results of the election but "afraid." I think we are going to see riots like we had in the 60's.
Part of my class tonight will be dedicated to "processing the election." It will be one hour of the 3 hour class, give or take.
Do you have to pay for that part of the class?
Ultralight
11-14-16, 3:01pm
Collages need to be active in helping their students. Never before have entire groups of people been afraid of their president. NOt unhappy with the results of the election but "afraid." I think we are going to see riots like we had in the 60's.
My question is: Are these students' fears founded on reality? Are the things they are afraid of statistical likelihoods?
Ultralight
11-14-16, 3:02pm
Do you have to pay for that part of the class?
It is a very interesting part of the class. It is like I am the Jane Goodall of SJWs.
frugal-one
11-14-16, 3:13pm
My question is: Are these students' fears founded on reality? Are the things they are afraid of statistical likelihoods?
Trump just added to his advisory team a white supremacist... I think we all should be afraid.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/steve-bannon-white-supremacists-celebrate-donald-trumps-appointment-of-far-right-breitbart-editor-a7416661.html
ApatheticNoMore
11-14-16, 3:18pm
Collages need to be active in helping their students. Never before have entire groups of people been afraid of their president. NOt unhappy with the results of the election but "afraid." I think we are going to see riots like we had in the 60's.
Even then should it be a class or a counselor they can see on their own if they want to talk. It doesn't seem it should be a class. But providing counseling if people want to seek it out on their own may make sense. In my view we had TWO pretty bad choices, so that's how I view the election. Other recommendations for people in need of counseling: those who voted 3rd party who are now being scapegoated for the election results. I'm kidding ...
My question is: Are these students' fears founded on reality? Are the things they are afraid of statistical likelihoods?
It all depends on what they fear. Illegals fearing deportation? Yes, it's rational. But Obama deported millions anyway, but it could of course increase and there is a good chance of that. Fearing mob violence or law and order policies targeted at minorities. Yes, but remember while not so much the former, the latter is ALREADY the case, although it could be more (but maybe someone offset by states often moving in the opposite direction against a hard law and order stance).
I think we all should be afraid.
I cancelled a trip to Portland this week, because of personal safety concerns.
I cancelled a trip to Portland this week, because of personal safety concerns.
That's unfortunate, and probably unnecessary. I understand the police there are going to come down hard on freedom of speech and assembly starting immediately.
Teacher Terry
11-14-16, 3:56pm
I am not following why a white guy is afraid to go to Portland. Colleges are places for freedom on speech and to discuss ideas, etc so it is totally appropriate for a social work class to be discussing this.
Colleges are places for freedom on speech and to discuss ideas.......
Really? I thought that ship had sailed.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/11/14/trump-liberal-college-campuses-michigan-yale-glenn-reynolds-column/93765568/
I am not following why a white guy is afraid to go to Portland.
Several times in my life, I have been in densely-populated urban areas when peaceful protests suddenly became quite non-peaceful.
I simply see no reason to risk getting into that situation again, when I can simply postpone the trip.
I also don't know why you called out my race. Well, maybe I do....
It is a very interesting part of the class. It is like I am the Jane Goodall of SJWs.
I know I've said this before, but I think you should be keeping notes with an eye to writing a book.
"Progressives in the Mist"
Was at a phoenix light rail station this morning with my husband. 3 guys were carrying large metal street signs that they had pulled up - posts and all. Shouting **** trump and such. And then they boarded the train going the opposite way as us, signs and all.
I stayed home the rest of today.
F*ck trump - I guess this software bleeps out my profanities huh
So -- as a white personal - yes one can feel unsafe. White can be assumed to be the bad guy too. Everybody is at risk when things are uncertain as they are now.
F*ck trump - I guess this software bleeps out my profanities huhYes, the original admins of this site censored a huge list of words. I thought most of it was overkill and uncensored the vast majority. If anyone thinks we should uncensor the rest, let me know.
No problem. Obviously I don't swear enough to have noticed it until now. :-)
I then decided I'm not gonna let any of the social unrest keep me in my house. I'm stubborn like that. So I took a walk after dark in downtown Phoenix all by myself! Ha ha!! 😄
Ultralight
11-14-16, 9:54pm
Well, after some reflection I am considering leaving the social work program at the end of this semester. I will obviously complete my obligations to my profs and classmates, but I am really feeling like it is not a good fit.
Any and all "told you so's" can be posted here or in a PM. haha
ApatheticNoMore
11-14-16, 10:19pm
Nah. Though I could easily see one quitting out of sheer exhaustion as it's not easy to take that many classes on top of work. Whether it's a good fit I would think depends on how one sees what one will actually be doing when employed (I know that's not always easy to know) as fitting with one's personality or not.
I mean the P.C. stuff, if it's the price to be paid for the credential, meh well everything has it's price, and usually it's high. Life is VERY hard. So I wouldn't make the decision on that alone, though I can see it being a letdown if one hoped the education would be not just the means to an end, but more enjoyable in itself.
But OTOH things like job prospects do matter (I don't know if they are good or bad of course).
And yea you may be too judgmental (even in the Meyers Briggs sense), not so much of the P.C. stuff, but more relevantly I don't think clients want to be judged all the time, they want to be understood which can be hard (read Gabor Mate's "In the Realm of the Hungry Ghosts" to see how he struggles to have empathy for really messed up people whose lives in many cases will never be together and who will die tragically and early from their problems - and he's not a hugely J person with a very black and white view of life at all. But it just shows it can be a struggle for even the best suited. He is working with REALLY troubled people of course).
ApatheticNoMore
11-14-16, 10:42pm
UL: How did "processing the election" go?
I guess I could easily see that as not really being as irritating a topic as it sounds and just being room for discussion (even if not very academic), just not with how you have been describing your classes :laff:
So -- as a white personal - yes one can feel unsafe. White can be assumed to be the bad guy too. Everybody is at risk when things are uncertain as they are now.
Oh protests like "F trump" don't scare me, I mean I've seen some, actually I check out any protest I happen to run across (I mean where I happen to be, not all over town), but don't join ALL of them ;).
Teacher Terry
11-15-16, 1:04am
UL: I am not surprised because i never saw you as an empathetic, non-judgmental type of person. No criticism at all because it is important to find a good job match. You don't want to have another job you hate or to do a disservice to your clients. It is tough work.
The three guys were standing 2-3 feet from me and my husband, waving the metal street signs, staring at us occasionally. It wasn't the language that bothered me. Not the content of being against trump. It was the threat of being hit with a piece of metal.
Ultralight
11-15-16, 8:27am
UL: I am not surprised because i never saw you as an empathetic, non-judgmental type of person. No criticism at all because it is important to find a good job match. You don't want to have another job you hate or to do a disservice to your clients. It is tough work.
Part of it is that I think my fellow liberals have lost their damn minds.
Well, after some reflection I am considering leaving the social work program at the end of this semester. I will obviously complete my obligations to my profs and classmates, but I am really feeling like it is not a good fit.
Any and all "told you so's" can be posted here or in a PM. haha
Not a good fit in terms of what you want to do professionally or not a good fit in terms of intellectual integrity?
If it's the latter, it might be worth putting up with the ideological indoctrination aspects for a few years in the fairly reasonable hope that none of that stuff matters very much in the real world. Join the cult or drink the Koolaid, and then drop it all when you're done.
If it's the former, at least you know you looked into it and will have no future regrets about what might have been.
If you're looking for something more renumerative while staying within the confines of your loan deal, maybe something like a Masters in Public Administration that could allow you to work in public service without the same level of PC purity demanded.
Part of it is that I think my fellow liberals have lost their damn minds.
I wish that trend was limited to liberals.
What about law school? I could so easily see you as a passionate advocate for the environment, for example. The world needs that passion! I see you as someone who thinks like an attorney (my mother, brother, 1st husband were all attorneys) and I think that would be a great fit.
iris lilies
11-15-16, 10:23am
...If you're looking for something more renumerative while staying within the confines of your loan deal, maybe something like a Masters in Public Administration that could allow you to work in public service without the same level of PC purity demanded.
yes, studying to be a government bureaucrat might be the ticket.
UL, its like an MBA, only management in the public sector.
iris lilies
11-15-16, 10:28am
What about law school? I could so easily see you as a passionate advocate for the environment, for example. The world needs that passion! I see you as someone who thinks like an attorney (my mother, brother, 1st husband were all attorneys) and I think that would be a great fit.
I think he is well suited for that, but the world is crammed with unemployed attorneys, and those staff government jobs he would want are highly competitive. Also, the cost. I will bet that his free program doesnt pay for law school, but what do I know.
Oh, I did not know that, about the program not paying and the staff govt lawyer jobs being highly competitive. If so, that is a shame.
iris lilies
11-15-16, 11:12am
Oh, I did not know that, about the program not paying and the staff govt lawyer jobs being highly competitive. If so, that is a shame.
I dont know for sure about tuition reimbursement, just a guess.
There are multiple threads on the MMM site about law school, unhappy lawyers, and admonishments not to go into that field. Those guys are the ones to say that government staff positions are stable and highly sought after.
Personally, I think UA should embark on a career as political muckraker. He's a conservative at heart, although he hasn't yet realized. Documenting his transformation would be entertaining.
How does one embark on a career as a political muckraker? What is the job description? Do you mean he should become a writer, like William Buckley? That's the only political muckraker I can think of offhand, but he was in the CIA.
Should he join the CIA? Good job security.
iris lilies
11-15-16, 11:27am
How does one embark on a career as a political muckraker? What is the job description? Do you mean he should become a writer, like William Buckley? That's the only political muckraker I can think of offhand, but he was in the CIA.
Should he join the CIA? Good job security.
Funny! Just last night I was thinking the CIA for UL, but honestly, I doubt he would commit in his heart the way you have to commit.
Ultralight
11-15-16, 11:37am
William Buckley?
It is quite possible there will only ever be one WFB. haha
Personally, I think UA should embark on a career as political muckraker. He's a conservative at heart, although he hasn't yet realized. Documenting his transformation would be entertaining.
When I think of "muckrakers" I think more along the lines of that woman who wrote the bogus rape story for Rolling Stone.
iris lily
11-15-16, 12:25pm
Well, I think agitating on small discussion boards is basic training for a muckraker. :D
Both are journalism oriented. Will they pay for journalism school??
When I think of "muckrakers" I think more along the lines of that woman who wrote the bogus rape story for Rolling Stone.Yes, I can see that, although I was thinking more along the lines of UA's buddy Milo Y.
Funny! Just last night I was thinking the CIA for UL, but honestly, I doubt he would commit in his heart the way you have to commit.
I just had dinner with John Brennan the other day, and could put in a good word.
Teacher Terry
11-15-16, 1:28pm
UL: before you decide to quit why don't you talk to some SW'ers about their jobs (the good, bad, etc) and try to decide if you would actually enjoy the work. One thing is that you may end up working with clients that have done some terrible things. For 4 years I worked with families that had abused their kids to try and determine if they could be reunited successfully or if the parents rights should be terminated. The clients are court ordered and not very happy about having a SWer in their lives. I had to build bridges in order to successfully work with them. I did other types of SW too but that was the toughest.
Ultralight
11-22-16, 8:34am
The chilling effect...
So last night I was talking with one of my classmates -- a fellow cyclist and atheist. It was cold and windy. She said: "I feel like a dummy for not wearing warmer clothes. Maybe I should have taken the bus today or driven."
I said: "It might be cold to ride a bike now, but..."
Then I stumbled because I was going to say "...it is a heck of a lot better than giving your money to those Saudi Oil Cartels like we do when we drive."
I just said, instead: "...it is better than paying for gas for a car."
I did not want to be accused of being racist or culturally imperialist for stating my dislike of the Saudi royal family/government and their obscene way of life.
iris lilies
11-22-16, 9:56am
The chilling effect...
So last night I was talking with one of my classmates -- a fellow cyclist and atheist. It was cold and windy. She said: "I feel like a dummy for not wearing warmer clothes. Maybe I should have taken the bus today or driven."
I said: "It might be cold to ride a bike now, but..."
Then I stumbled because I was going to say "...it is a heck of a lot better than giving your money to those Saudi Oil Cartels like we do when we drive."
I just said, instead: "...it is better than paying for gas for a car."
I did not want to be accused of being racist or culturally imperialist for stating my dislike of the Saudi royal family/government and their obscene way of life.
There is nothing that gives me more entertainment than occasions when liberal ideologies collide.
Thanks!
Apart from your admirable "chilling effect" pun, you have repeated the experience of millions of people in totalitarian societies. Dare I say what I'm thinking? Who might hear and denounce me?
“You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/10420.Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn)
ApatheticNoMore
11-22-16, 10:16am
Maybe could have said: I don't want to give my money to Exxon mobile or shale oil companies and so on. Afterall the Saudis are far from the only one's making out on oil, Exxon is regularly one of the most profitable companies on earth, and North American oil production is way up (due to shale and so on). I'm just amazed you have a job in biking distance of a college, quite lucky there. For reasons of everything being a commute, I am a huge fan of online education, but I'm about the only one who is, I think the rest of the world thinks it is inferior.
Anyway, I doubt pretty much any normal person (except for members of the U.S. government that is - Hillary Clinton, the Bushes etc.) has much sympathy for the Saudi royal family. Imperialism in the real world is not being executed against the Saudis at present (not that I'm saying I'd favor war there), but it's known the Saudi government are U.S. government allies.
Stick out the classes if the prize at the end seems worth it, don't if it doesn't. Everyone puts up with a lot of shit to go to school. I'm so naturally some academic A student type when it comes to school, I try to learn all the material etc.. I was taking a class (heaven knows why, hope it would lead to better jobs, hope that is likely delusional), massive reading of difficult material required. Of course I try to learn and do it all (A student :~)) and only want to quit the class because I am drowning in that. And my boyfriend tells me just do what you need to to pass. Ugh this is so contrary to who I am with academics. But he says he got through law school that way, that the amount of reading was not doable, so he just read up on cases etc.. Ok so what crappy law school did he go to anyway, university of Phoenix law school perhaps, hehe? No somewhere really prestigious. They just gave more work than could be done by the traditional "honest" methods. Everyone cheats to win in some ways I guess. :~) And more to the point nearly everyone puts up with stuff that is really not how one would like it to be to get credentials if they want them.
ApatheticNoMore
11-22-16, 10:22am
Apart from your admirable "chilling effect" pun, you have repeated the experience of millions of people in totalitarian societies. Dare I say what I'm thinking? Who might hear and denounce me?
yea but this is not in any real sense totalitarian. In a totalitarian society they fear to speak because of the likely punishment being torture, death, imprisonment etc.. Not social disapproval. Now one could say it's not JUST social disapproval, but job prospects etc.. To what extent this is even real I don't know. But even if it is, everyone curbs themselves to be employable in some way pretty much. Welcome to life under capitalism, where of course some control is exercised by the need to eat etc..
yea but this is not in any real sense totalitarian. In a totalitarian society they fear to speak because of the likely punishment being torture, death, imprisonment etc.. Not social disapproval. Now one could say it's not JUST social disapproval, but job prospects etc.. To what extent this is even real I don't know. But even if it is, everyone curbs themselves to be employable in some way pretty much. Welcome to life under capitalism, where of course some control is exercised by the need to eat etc..
Lower stakes, same principle. I'm not sure our current versions of academic thought crime are all that comparable to "life under capitalism". I'm certain my employer doesn't much care about my opinions concerning the House of Saud, or even whether I think we are all pawns in a comprehensive corporate conspiracy. They just want the books to balance.
Who was it who said "Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small"?
There is nothing that gives me more entertainment than occasions when liberal ideologies collide.
Thanks!
Is that what they mean when they talk about "intersectionality"?
catherine
11-22-16, 11:22am
Lower stakes, same principle. I'm not sure our current versions of academic thought crime are all that comparable to "life under capitalism". I'm certain my employer doesn't much care about my opinions concerning the House of Saud, or even whether I think we are all pawns in a comprehensive corporate conspiracy. They just want the books to balance.
As suspect as I am of the ironclad belief that capitalism is the best way to go, I've told my DD, who has often complained about the politics of the non-profits for which she worked, there's nothing cleaner than a monetary bottom line. At least when you're working for profit, you tend to know exactly where you stand. NOT to say there isn't corporate office politics in for-profit companies, but that's usually just an annoying sidebar compared with the politics of ideologies inherent in a non-profit.
JaneV2.0
11-22-16, 12:02pm
There is nothing that gives me more entertainment than occasions when liberal ideologies collide.
Thanks!
You might just broaden it to include conservatives. They preach small government while regulating everything they can get their hands on, including what you can do with your uterus and a myriad of other issues that are none of their damn business.
iris lilies
11-22-16, 12:18pm
As suspect as I am of the ironclad belief that capitalism is the best way to go, I've told my DD, who has often complained about the politics of the non-profits for which she worked, there's nothing cleaner than a monetary bottom line. At least when you're working for profit, you tend to know exactly where you stand. NOT to say there isn't corporate office politics in for-profit companies, but that's usually just an annoying sidebar compared with the politics of ideologies inherent in a non-profit.
I agree, except that there are so many ways to disguise monetary losses behind mirrors. Creative accounting, choosing the wrong measure, etc.
I would love there to be a clear and concise measure to show that Trump reduces deficit spending. But i will bet that there are several ways to analyze that issue, and even if he does accomplish some reduction which I doubt will happen, we all will not be able to agree on the measure.
If the day were ever to come when the Federal government was required to publish financial statements in accordance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, the results would be stupefying.
iris lilies
11-22-16, 12:35pm
You might just broaden it to include conservatives. They preach small government while regulating everything they can get their hands on, including what you can do with your uterus and a myriad of other issues that are none of their damn business.
dude, true conservatives do not regulate everythIng they can get their hands on. You are seeing faux conservatives in action.
dude, true conservatives do not regulate everythIng they can get their hands on. You are seeing faux conservatives in action.
I'm all for trimming the considerable fat from government; I'm all for personal freedom. I haven't seen anything but Bible-thumping, partisan stonewalling, and the most despicable demagoguery from the current crop of "conservative" poseurs. I'm not particularly hopeful about seeing that change soon.
ApatheticNoMore
11-22-16, 2:28pm
Lower stakes, same principle. I'm not sure our current versions of academic thought crime are all that comparable to "life under capitalism". I'm certain my employer doesn't much care about my opinions concerning the House of Saud, or even whether I think we are all pawns in a comprehensive corporate conspiracy. They just want the books to balance.
The vastly lower stakes mean it's not the same principle. And think of low paid service workers who always have to appear happy for the customer etc., that definitely seems worse in terms of mind-control than having to go to some classes one thinks are silly. Noone even hires based purely on ability to do the work (they have dozens of people who can do that), it's all a barrage of weird hoops (including personality tests when they want to use them), only a few of which are relevant.
I've never taken a class that was P.C., so for me, I have always found school a bastion of sanity compared to the real world, where it was clear what was expected of you and how to succeed etc..
dude, true conservatives do not regulate everythIng they can get their hands on. You are seeing faux conservatives in action.
As long as every other group (liberals, Muslims, feminists, black lives matter, whatever) can dismiss whatever is done in their name and say "That's not us - you are seeing faux (whatever group it is) in action".
But I see an issue pulling out the broad brush for some groups and but then pulling out the fine brush for others.
catherine
11-22-16, 7:38pm
Part of it is that I think my fellow liberals have lost their damn minds.
Here is a great example of exactly that..
This was from an article in the Washington Post about the cast and the theatergoers of Hamilton.
Hey Democrats, want help to rally the country around Donald Trump? Here’s a great idea: Have a crowd of wealthy, out-of-touch Manhattan liberals (who can afford $849 tickets to “Hamilton”) boo Vice President-elect Mike Pence while the cast of the Broadway show lectures him on diversity.
Great points about how Hillary and the Dems fumbled that touchdown pass
Hamilton and the Implosion of the American Left (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hamilton-and-the-implosion-of-the-american-left/2016/11/21/acc6a45c-aff8-11e6-be1c-8cec35b1ad25_story.html?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.232cd5c8b8e7)
iris lilies
11-22-16, 9:01pm
As long as every other group (liberals, Muslims, feminists, black lives matter, whatever) can dismiss whatever is done in their name and say "That's not us - you are seeing faux (whatever group it is) in action".
But I see an issue pulling out the broad brush for some groups and but then pulling out the fine brush for others.
yes, that brush thing does happen..
if it makes you feel any better, when "they" are describng conservatives I never know if I am allowed to stand with them or not.
ApatheticNoMore
11-23-16, 7:18am
Hey Democrats, want help to rally the country around Donald Trump? Here’s a great idea: Have a crowd of wealthy, out-of-touch Manhattan liberals (who can afford $849 tickets to “Hamilton”) boo Vice President-elect Mike Pence while the cast of the Broadway show lectures him on diversity.
wealthy people being out of touch is not a party thing, wait Donald Trump is supposedly a billionaire isn't he? Common man ... totally!
JaneV2.0
11-23-16, 11:36am
I love how Progressives are totally willing to navel-gaze and flagellate themselves as Conservatives stalwartly claim the moral ground and commit every political crime in the book (voter suppression, gerrymandering, racist robo-calls, WN thugs unashamedly giving the Nazi salute at Trump rallies...) I'll claim the silly "Oh no--Hillary had her own server!" manufactured outrage any day over that.
Ultralight
12-8-16, 6:13pm
I thought I would stop by with another tale...
The other night as I was leaving class I was talking to a classmate at the bicycle rack. She had been doing some side-reading of the autobiography of Malcolm X. So I asked her how it was going and she said "slow."
She then said: "But I am looking forward to watching the documentary 13th!"
I asked: "What's it about?"
She said: "The 13th amendment!"
I said: "Oh, yeah. That is a really, really good amendment -- could be better. Though I will say I pretty much like them all."
She says: "Even the 2nd amendment?"
She was clearly not amused.
I said: "Yeah... I am socially liberal..."
She then gives me this annoyed look like she knows what I am going to say. But I go in an unexpected direction: "...and I am also fiscally liberal. But I am not culturally liberal."
Then she took on a thoughtful expression.
We exchanged pleasantries and rode off on our bikes in different directions.
This woman is very bright, one of the brightest people in the program. We get along really well, have interesting conversations, her comments in class are engaging, and so on.
What I am wondering is if she will start to reassess some of the unfortunate anti-free speech and anti-free thought orthodoxies of the current culture of the left.
Could be interesting...
What's the difference between socially and culturally liberal?
Is "liberal" even a useful term anymore? There was a time when it implied free-market economics and minimal restrictions on action and expression. Now they have to qualify it as "classical liberal". It certainly wouldn't seem to apply to someone who would snarl at the mention of the Second Amendment.
Ultralight
12-8-16, 6:29pm
What's the difference between socially and culturally liberal?
Is "liberal" even a useful term anymore? There was a time when it implied free-market economics and minimal restrictions on action and expression. Now they have to qualify it as "classical liberal". It certainly wouldn't seem to apply to someone who would snarl at the mention of the Second Amendment.
Valid points. Though I think you probably are aware of my sentiments despite the definitions of words being rather wobbly.
I think "liberal" has gone way of dinosaur, as the Hamilton conversation illuminated.
On the other hand, if folks know what you are talking about using those terms, and they are shared terms that lead to a better conversation, then go for it.
Valid points. Though I think you probably are aware of my sentiments despite the definitions of words being rather wobbly.Wobbly? That might describe the way the earth wobbles a bit on it's axis, but in my mind doesn't come close to describing the illiberalness of current liberals. I think antithetical would be more accurate. ;)
To be fair, there are plenty of people who call themselves conservatives who make me wonder if they understand what that means.
Ultralight
12-9-16, 8:31am
It is a topsy turvy world, amigo. haha
I told my friend (a SJW and immigration attorney) I was thinking of getting a tattoo of Sitting Bull. She flipped out: "Are you Native American?! That is cultural appropriation! Why aren't you out at Standing Rock? Your fishing is bullsh*t! You are white and have no right to that tattoo!"
Apparently I triggered her.
It is a topsy turvy world, amigo. haha
I told my friend (a SJW and immigration attorney) I was thinking of getting a tattoo of Sitting Bull. She flipped out: "Are you Native American?! That is cultural appropriation! Why aren't you out at Standing Rock? Your fishing is bullsh*t! You are white and have no right to that tattoo!"
Apparently I triggered her.
What did fishing have to do with it?
What did fishing have to do with it?
Is fishing supposed to be cultural appropriation, now. Wow, Ernest Hemingway must be rolling in his grave.
To be fair, there are plenty of people who call themselves conservatives who make me wonder if they understand what that means.
Usually what defines conservative and liberal is whether it is to the right or to the left of where the observer is sitting - but the observer could be sitting anywhere on the spectrum.
Ultralight
12-18-16, 6:35pm
"Please don't use the word 'is' because it triggers my existential malaise."
"Please don't use the word 'is' because it triggers my existential malaise."
If only there were safe spaces from concrete reality.
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