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CathyA
11-10-16, 9:39am
I've been struggling with my feelings of doom and gloom......with Donald at the helm and the Congress being republican led. All the damage that could be done is overwhelming.

This morning on the CBS news they interviewed a man (First name Tom, but I can't find his last name anywhere), who worked for the Reagan administration and and is friends with Trump.
He essentially said what I've been wondering.......that Trump's campaign showed a totally different person than his presidency would. He said he felt that Trump is someone who is fair, kind, reasonable and would work both sides of the isle. He seemed articulate and honest.
He said that Trump's campaign behavior was just to get the votes and said that his behavior as President would be totally different.

I would LOVE to believe this, but.........how can someone be so vile and hateful and then turn it off to be different? And if he can do that, does that reveal something dishonest/strange/manipulative about his basic character?

I would love to be surprised with who he is as president.

What do you think?

Ultralight
11-10-16, 9:52am
He'll say dumb stuff but mostly just do standard GOP stuff.

LDAHL
11-10-16, 10:11am
Personal obnoxiousness isn't necessarily a barrier to achievement. Many American presidents have been boorish, vulgar, lugubrious moral ciphers.

Yossarian
11-10-16, 10:11am
My guess is most of the early benefit falls to the rich folks. Passing tax reform- quick. Repealing the ACA- quick. But finding a good replacement for the ACA? Not quick. The biggest benefit that would help us all is find a way to energize the economy, and that may take time to get going too. After the 81 recession we had the 80s boom. After the '91 recession we had the 90s boom, after the .com crash we had decent growth in the 2000s. But to me it still feels like things never really got going after the 2008 crash. We need something to release the animal spirits to get things going again. Obama was great about caring about people, but not so much about driving business. Maybe it takes someone who sucks at caring about people to get things going on the business side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_spirits_(Keynes)

Rogar
11-10-16, 10:25am
I have an open mind and there probably some things he might do well. By his own words here are the things he proposes as immediate priority. I find several items I take issue with. http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days

Miss Cellane
11-10-16, 11:01am
Define "good."

I'm sure, as with any president, there will be people who think he does wonders, and people who will hate him.

So, yes, I think for some portion of the US population, Trump will do good things.

History will tell if those good things were done for the average Joe who voted for him, or the "elite" running the large corporations.

catherine
11-10-16, 11:12am
My guess is most of the early benefit falls to the rich folks. Passing tax reform- quick. Repealing the ACA- quick. But finding a good replacement for the ACA? Not quick. The biggest benefit that would help us all is find a way to energize the economy, and that may take time to get going too. After the 81 recession we had the 80s boom. After the '91 recession we had the 90s boom, after the .com crash we had decent growth in the 2000s. But to me it still feels like things never really got going after the 2008 crash. We need something to release the animal spirits to get things going again. Obama was great about caring about people, but not so much about driving business. Maybe it takes someone who sucks at caring about people to get things going on the business side. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_spirits_(Keynes)

Sure, a yin-yang push-pull is important and it's how our government works best. I particularly like what Keynes said:


The proper role of the government, like the proper role of the advice-book parent, is to set the stage. The stage should give full rein to the creativity of capitalism. But it should also countervail the excesses that occur because of our animal spirits. (bolding mine)


I'm not sure the Senate and the House are going to serve that function. I see animal spirits running amok unless we pay attention and do something.

JaneV2.0
11-10-16, 11:30am
Animal spirits would be a vast improvement, IMO. :(

I wouldn't put it past Trump to adopt whatever facade would benefit him, and drop it when it's no longer useful. So we'll see.
We'll survive, unless he and his cronies usher in WWIII.

IshbelRobertson
11-10-16, 12:09pm
The reaction of some EU leaders have been tepid according to some reports. Their newspapers less so. Mrs May was polite, at least.

In a round up of headlines in Europe asserting that Amageddon was nigh, I loved how Mr Trump's win was reported in the Aberdeen P&J
'Aberdeenshire businessman declared winner of US presidential contest'... Or words to that effect!

bae
11-10-16, 12:38pm
I wouldn't put it past Trump to adopt whatever facade would benefit him, and drop it when it's no longer useful.

Ah, so you think he's a politician?

iris lilies
11-10-16, 1:16pm
The reaction of some EU leaders have been tepid according to some reports. Their newspapers less so. Mrs May was polite, at least.

In a round up of headlines in Europe asserting that Amageddon was nigh, I loved how Mr Trump's win was reported in the Aberdeen P&J
'Aberdeenshire businessman declared winner of US presidential contest'... Or words to that effect!
That references his golf courses, I,suppose. Good for Scotland, maybe The Donald will forge a program of duo-citizenship. I would love that.

JaneV2.0
11-10-16, 1:33pm
That references his golf courses, I,suppose. Good for Scotland, maybe The Donald will forge a program of duo-citizenship. I would love that.

There's a silver lining in every cloud!. I'll dig out my tartans.

bae
11-10-16, 1:35pm
One hope I have is that since The Donald is an outsider, ran without much substantive help from the GOP, mocked them, and caused many GOP establishment types to recoil from supporting him, perhaps the GOP and the Democrats in the House and Senate will work together, joining hands against this interloper...

JaneV2.0
11-10-16, 1:35pm
Ah, so you think he's a politician?

Apparently. The proud, pussy-grabbing, KKK-supported, torture-supporting kind. Oh yay.

Zoe Girl
11-10-16, 1:39pm
I love what Sanders said, he said that he and others would work with him on the economy and other issues, but absolutely stand against him when it comes to the racist, sexist, overall dangerous and hurtful things he has said and supported. I agree, however it will be very hard to accept anything good he does considering that.

catherine
11-10-16, 1:46pm
I love what Sanders said, he said that he and others would work with him on the economy and other issues, but absolutely stand against him when it comes to the racist, sexist, overall dangerous and hurtful things he has said and supported. I agree, however it will be very hard to accept anything good he does considering that.

I just saw that and copied it to my computer. I love it.

Here it is:

1647

iris lilies
11-10-16, 2:29pm
So, here it is, the protest against the electoral college, entirely expected. That is the ONE thing I figured would come out of this election that was true. Only I, brainwashed by the mainstream media who had HRC in the
White House, figured that the protests would come from Trump supporters.

Here are just two Petitions I have run across.

https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electoral-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19?recruiter=625983218&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-no_src-custom_msg


https://www.dailykos.com/campaigns/petitions/sign-the-petition-abolish-the-electoral-college?source=20161109sp1

frugalone
11-10-16, 2:46pm
One of the first things his staff said was "he has a long memory and he's keeping a list of every Republican who didn't support him."

Off to a great start, are we?

Miss Cellane
11-10-16, 2:53pm
One of the first things his staff said was "he has a long memory and he's keeping a list of every Republican who didn't support him."

Off to a great start, are we?

This is my major concern. That he will propose something no one, even other Republicans, likes, but everyone will be too afraid of him to stand up to him. Will the Cabinet members stand up to him? Will he listen to reason?

Nothing he did or said on the campaign trail indicated that he would. And all the comments about how he can't stand to lose a fight, has to win, and the comments about retaliating on people who oppose him worry me. That, more than anything else, kept me from voting for him. His personality does not seem suited to a position requiring some degree of tact and diplomacy.

ToomuchStuff
11-10-16, 2:56pm
Do you know the difference between possible and probable?

IshbelRobertson
11-10-16, 2:58pm
That references his golf courses, I,suppose. Good for Scotland, maybe The Donald will forge a program of duo-citizenship. I would love that.


He's HATED here!
No dual citizenship based on his bullying of the SNP!

Rogar
11-10-16, 3:13pm
One thing I could give him credit for is that when he says something dumb off the cuff or half thought out he isn't afraid to change his mind and maybe can be a little flexible. And also he isn't afriad of going against the party platform or the establishment republicans. Speculation on his new cabinet that includes Chris Christy, Giuliani, Gingrich, and Ben Carson may say he's just not going to sway from the ultra conservatives, but that's just speculation.

My conspiracy side wonders if Hillary and Bill's law friends or other interests aren't pouring over things looking for legal issues. Some of his comments during the campaign seemed slanderous, there are still allegations of sexual misconduct, his tax information is still a mystery, and his businesses are starting to look like potential conflicts of interest.

Miss Cellane
11-10-16, 3:15pm
One thing I could give him credit for is that when he says something dumb off the cuff or half thought out he isn't afraid to change his mind and maybe can be a little flexible. And also he isn't afriad of going against the party platform or the establishment republicans. Speculation on his new cabinet that includes Chris Christy, Giuliani, Gingrich, and Ben Carson may say he's just not going to sway from the ultra conservatives, but that's just speculation.

My conspiracy side wonders if Hillary and Bill's law friends or other interests aren't pouring over things looking for legal issues. Some of his comments during the campaign seemed slanderous, there are still allegations of sexual misconduct, his tax information is still a mystery, and his businesses are starting to look like potential conflicts of interest.

One of my friends has a theory that within two years, based on his past behavior, he will commit an impeachable act, and we will be rid of him.

bae
11-10-16, 3:18pm
This is my major concern. That he will propose something no one, even other Republicans, likes, but everyone will be too afraid of him to stand up to him.

Why on earth would anyone be afraid of him?

He's just the President. Head of the executive branch. He's not a King. He doesn't wield the power of high and low justice.

What's he going to do if you disagree with him?

My 16 year old daughter delayed him 2 hours from getting his $120k shotgun back into his hands, and she's still alive. So am I. So's the gunsmith.

iris lilies
11-10-16, 3:21pm
He's HATED here!
No dual citizenship based on his bullying of the SNP!
Sure, I know he is HATED there but Aberdeen was happy to claim him in the headline. It was funny.

CathyA
11-10-16, 3:21pm
With Trump as material........the possibilities are endless! I was thinking that after a year or 2, he would be so sick of being president that he'd step down, or to move to a different country!
There are sooooo many things to worry about, but what's high on my list of worries is what he and the republicans will do to the environment. No one seems to appreciate how deteriorated the environment has become, and they are moving forward with abandon. And also Trump's potential interest in filling up every natural space in the nation with money-making businesses.

I'm not in a good place in my head these days. :(

bae
11-10-16, 3:27pm
With Trump as material........the possibilities are endless! I was thinking that after a year or 2, he would be so sick of being president that he'd step down, or to move to a different country!


Maybe he'll do the CEO-thing - hire some good subordinates to run things, give them some direction/PR cover for the Board, and let them loose to Do The Right Things. Spend most of his time golfing with investors and customers. Smile for the camera. It's a proven winning strategy.

Miss Cellane
11-10-16, 3:52pm
Why on earth would anyone be afraid of him?

He's just the President. Head of the executive branch. He's not a King. He doesn't wield the power of high and low justice.

What's he going to do if you disagree with him?

My 16 year old daughter delayed him 2 hours from getting his $120k shotgun back into his hands, and she's still alive. So am I. So's the gunsmith.

I'm thinking people with political futures. Will they be able to say "Look, this is a stupid idea"?

I grant you most of us have nothing to fear on that point. But will he have advisors who aren't yes-men, who have the nerve to risk their political future by telling him "no." I did not see signs of this during the campaign.

His initial response to the NYT running stories about women who said he sexually assaulted them was to threaten to sue. He has threaten to sue the women who made those claims. Will he attempt to hobble the media? He certainly seems willing to try.

creaker
11-10-16, 4:19pm
I wonder who might get appointed to the SC?

JaneV2.0
11-10-16, 4:44pm
I wonder who might get appointed to the SC?

Does Omarosa have a law degree? :sick:

CathyA
11-10-16, 4:56pm
I've seen his possible pics for cabinet staff.........Newt Gingrich and Rudy Jiuliani and Rience Priebus........all of whom give me the heebie jeebies. :0!

iris lilies
11-10-16, 5:56pm
I've seen his possible pics for cabinet staff.........Newt Gingrich and Rudy Jiuliani and Rience Priebus........all of whom give me the heebie jeebies. :0!
I hsve a fondness for Newt, but in the end he is just another political hack.

IshbelRobertson
11-10-16, 6:03pm
Sure, I know he is HATED there but Aberdeen was happy to claim him in the headline. It was funny.


I suspect this is Scottish irony!

Yossarian
11-10-16, 6:12pm
I hsve a fondness for Newt, but in the end he is just another political hack.

Giuliani jumped the shark this year too.

CathyA
11-10-16, 6:53pm
Giuliani jumped the shark this year too.

I had to look that one up! haha Recently when I saw him in an interview, it was hard to imagine he could ever have been mayor of NYC. He was a bit pathetic in his unwavering support of Trump. He must have been hoping for a part in Trump's play.

razz
11-10-16, 7:17pm
Not having heard of the expression "jumped the shark", I looked it up. Obviously, Bannon was the right choice as white rural males tuned in, felt heard and Trump won. What does it mean above?

http://http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/18/donald-trump-jumped-the-shark-with-his-latest-campaign-moves-commentary.html
A TV show "jumps the shark" when it creates a stunt that is so ridiculous and unbelievable that viewers naturally tune out. It is usually the beginning of the end as ratings plummet with the desperate move. The saying was coined after "Happy Days"' character 'the Fonz' literally jumped over a shark on water skis as ratings for the 70s hit TV show sagged in its fifth season.


Looks like Donald Trump just jumped the shark with his latest effort to save his flailing campaign by bringing in advisors who are notorious for creating spectacle.

Let's start with Stephen Bannon who becomes Trump's new campaign chief executive. Bannon has reportedly been telling Trump to return to his combative ways that made him so popular during the primaries. Campaign sources have told reporters that Bannon has been pushing Trump for a while to run as a proud nationalist who is a bona fide outsider.

iris lilies
11-10-16, 7:25pm
I suspect this is Scottish irony!
Oh good, it was intended. It was funny.

Teacher Terry
11-10-16, 8:11pm
I read an article from a law professor that said he faces 75 trials if he does not settle them but has a history of settling. If him or his company were convicted of fraud that would be an impeachable offense. But then we are left with Pence. In the past when my party lost I just accepted it. Him winning is really hard to swallow.

Alan
11-10-16, 8:45pm
My Dear Wormwood,

Be sure that the patient remains completely fixated on politics. Arguments, political gossip, and obsessing on the faults of people they have never met serves as an excellent distraction from advancing in personal virtue, character, and the things the patient can control. Make sure to keep the patient in a constant state of angst, frustration, and general disdain towards the rest of the human race in order to avoid any kind of charity or inner peace from further developing. Ensure the patient continues to believe that the problem is "out there" in the "broken system" rather than recognizing there is a problem with himself. Keep up the good work.

-Uncle Screwtape

Cypress
11-10-16, 9:04pm
One of the first things his staff said was "he has a long memory and he's keeping a list of every Republican who didn't support him."

Off to a great start, are we?

So, being from Massachusetts, we may be at the end of the line. Our Governor Baker, a Republican, steadfastly spoke against his Presidency. On election day, he made no selection for President, says he left that area blank. Senator Warren was pretty vocal about her position against the guy. On her FB page, she is now speaking like Obama, lay down the words and work together. That's a big switcheroo! The only thing that might save us is the New England Patriots coach Bill Belichik who is an odd duck for sure, wrote a support letter to Trump that was well received. The two have some connection. It looked lonely, Massachusetts showing blue surrounded by red on the national map We stuck out, it looked awkward.

Zoe Girl
11-10-16, 9:45pm
Denver has already exploded in protests, not against any of the economic plans or guns or abortion, the usual issues. But against racism, sexism and in protection of the LBGQT community. The only good I can see him doing is making our communities of activism much stronger.

JaneV2.0
11-10-16, 9:46pm
An enemies list? Shades of Richard Nixon, but less intelligent.

creaker
11-10-16, 9:54pm
I'm very worried what Pence will be pushing to get on the President's desk for Trump to sign - that man has a very clear agenda.

nswef
11-10-16, 9:55pm
My Dear Wormwood,

Be sure that the patient remains completely fixated on politics. Arguments, political gossip, and obsessing on the faults of people they have never met serves as an excellent distraction from advancing in personal virtue, character, and the things the patient can control. Make sure to keep the patient in a constant state of angst, frustration, and general disdain towards the rest of the human race in order to avoid any kind of charity or inner peace from further developing. Ensure the patient continues to believe that the problem is "out there" in the "broken system" rather than recognizing there is a problem with himself. Keep up the good work.

-Uncle Screwtape

Fox News has adopted this action for 8 years and this is the result of 8 years of unrelieved hate mongering.

ApatheticNoMore
11-11-16, 3:06am
The good I *could* see him doing is nixing the new trade agreements (that have not yet been signed)- TPP, Trans Atlantic Partnership etc.. Now this is maybe about as likely to happen as Obama closing Gitmo - remember how he was going to do that in his first 100 days :laff:

But Trump does say stuff about it on his transition website, so in his own claims. Although his words are already getting weasly "change them" and so on. However, these trade agreements seem to be falling apart anyway, and the election of Trump may have given them yet another push off the cliff, and if true that is a very good thing he's done. These were agreements that people were protesting all over the world even if Clinton seemed to think it was a good idea not to come out against them in any real way (like by making opposition to them part of the Dem platform as petitioned by the Sanders delegates and vetoed by the Clinton people).

Another good or not thing he *could* do depending on your perspective is have a jobs program, building infrastructure etc. (maybe how good it is depends on exactly how beneficial the infrastructure that is built would be - maybe the infrastructure is pipelines on native land, I don't know :~) - certainly the potential for undesirable projects exists). But since so many people are unemployed and underemployed a jobs program if one is created could be regarded as good in some sense. Even if he stole the idea from FDR, Dems don't run on these things anymore, nor have any congressional ability to push them through against opposition or sometimes even without it. Again Trump himself talks about infrastructure and jobs programs connected to it.

The futures so bright I gotta wear shades. Well not really, but the question was could Trump do (any) good ...

ApatheticNoMore
11-11-16, 4:08am
Be sure that the patient remains completely fixated on politics. Arguments, political gossip, and obsessing on the faults of people they have never met serves as an excellent distraction from advancing in personal virtue, character, and the things the patient can control. Make sure to keep the patient in a constant state of angst, frustration, and general disdain towards the rest of the human race in order to avoid any kind of charity or inner peace from further developing. Ensure the patient continues to believe that the problem is "out there" in the "broken system" rather than recognizing there is a problem with himself. Keep up the good work.

on the other hand people have seen political involvement as central to the nature of man.

But yea the U.S. political system makes much of it futile and a waste of time as the power to do that much about it really isn't there much of the time. And it seems one has to follow a great deal of irrelevant nonsense to even know how to take any possible relevant action when one has a tiny window to (a vote, a protest etc.).

Maybe 3rd party voting is mainly just mental simplification (direct democracy like referenda certainly is), just vote for a decent person with a relatively decent platform rather than having to weight ten thousand complexities and minutia of bad candidates against each other deciding which is worse.

Ultralight
11-11-16, 9:56am
I think Trump's election might mean we can actually criticize the "mother lode of bad ideas" that is Islam (quoted part sourced from Sam Harris).

But at the exact same time we need to be super careful not to discriminate against Arabs and/or Muslims.

Everything else though, will be total political horror show.

Tybee
11-11-16, 10:20am
I think Trump's election might mean we can actually criticize the "mother lode of bad ideas" that is Islam (quoted part sourced from Sam Harris).

But at the exact same time we need to be super careful not to discriminate against Arabs and/or Muslims.

Everything else though, will be total political horror show.

Part of the real problem with this kind of discourse is people talking about "we"--right after you have excluded a whole religion whose ideas you feel free to criticize. That is a "we" that does not include me.

Ultralight
11-11-16, 10:25am
Part of the real problem with this kind of discourse is people talking about "we"--right after you have excluded a whole religion whose ideas you feel free to criticize. That is a "we" that does not include me. Uh... you are not American?

Also: I noticed that many liberals will jump to defend Islam. Then I ask: Have you read the Quran?

Nope.

The Hadith?

Nope.

Hmmmm... Seems ill-informed.

Have you read the Quran?

Zoe Girl
11-11-16, 10:39am
Uh... you are not American?

Also: I noticed that many liberals will jump to defend Islam. Then I ask: Have you read the Quran?



I have enough issues with Christianity to read another religious book! I support religious freedom, a lot of religions frankly suck. As a liberal I have noticed the trend over my many years to glorify some other culture without looking at all of it. There are some serious problems in Buddhism, the reason that I do the western style and don't apologize for it not being 'authentic'. I still learn a lot,

Ultralight
11-11-16, 10:45am
All that I am saying is that we as Americans need to be able to criticize bad ideas (and good ideas!).

I criticize capitalism, objectivism, fascism and my fellow liberals cheer. I criticize Islam and suddenly I could be called a bigot.

Now, I am afraid that the criticism of Islam that could happen in the next four years might be totally irrational. But I hope that Sam Harris and other public intellectuals can help steer the conversations in a productive path -- one that might lead to a reformation in Islam and perhaps just a massive wave of apostasy.

LDAHL
11-11-16, 10:47am
Part of the real problem with this kind of discourse is people talking about "we"--right after you have excluded a whole religion whose ideas you feel free to criticize. That is a "we" that does not include me.

He didn't "exclude a whole religion". He just wants to discuss certain points of doctrine. The guy may be on the impertinent side, but he's no bigot.

I suspect he could criticize certain Catholic ideas without raising any hackles (if he does, don't worry. I'll write him a note). What makes some cows more sacred than others?

Ultralight
11-11-16, 10:54am
The guy may be on the impertinent side, but he's no bigot.

True and true. haha
Thanks!




I suspect he could criticize certain Catholic ideas without raising any hackles (if he does, don't worry. I'll write him a note).

Feel free. The First Amendment is for everyone.

CathyA
11-11-16, 10:56am
I guess I'm a mixture of things. To me, it's probably a noble idea to try to make America work, as a nation for "all". But I'm too into the notion that we humans ARE animals and have the same types of hard-wired instincts. I think it's quite natural to want to be with your own kind.

The idea that the U.S. can live peaceably with all races/religions might be a noble dream, but I think it's unrealistic and probably goes against our hard-wiring. But we humans try to separate ourselves from the animals, and have made all sorts of rules.......like monogamy, sexuality, public behavior, how we should dress, etc., etc., etc. We constantly fight our instincts. And I totally understand that we do a lot of this to make society run more smoothly, and so we don't act like animals.

I think that all of us fall on a different part of the continuum of how we deal with this. I think there are people at each extreme end and those scattered all through the middle. But what seems to have happened in the U.S. is that there are those who seem to have those more instinctual behaviors (defensiveness, territoriality, etc...Conservatives/tea partiers.??) versus those who are able to not be that way and are more accepting and less defensive (liberals?). Plus, we invite every race and religion to come to the U.S., and then they start demanding their rights to behave and believe what they want. How can this ever work? Can we put all the animals of the world together and expect peace, harmony and understanding?

I think the U.S. (and other countries) is seeing perhaps the result of this experiment now. How can we live together when/if we are so very different from some others, and want a different world and different rules?

I'm just trying to understand why things are going the way they are. Some of you always think "We just need to be kind and accepting and love each other." Well, good luck with that, but I really don't think it's possible.
So should we try to figure out something else? I can't always express myself very well. I'm just trying to make sense of what's become of this country/world. Being human isn't easy.......

CathyA
11-11-16, 11:21am
oops........double post

iris lilies
11-11-16, 11:50am
All that I am saying is that we as Americans need to be able to criticize bad ideas (and good ideas!).

I criticize capitalism, objectivism, fascism and my fellow liberals cheer. I criticize Islam and suddenly I could be called a bigot.

Now, I am afraid that the criticism of Islam that could happen in the next four years might be totally irrational. But I hope that Sam Harris and other public intellectuals can help steer the conversations in a productive path -- one that might lead to a reformation in Islam and perhaps just a massive wave of apostasy.
Of course we ned to be able to criticize bad ideas. Like the idea that our public discussion in the U.S. would lead to a reformation of Islam. Ah, not remotely a chance.

LDAHL
11-11-16, 11:51am
Feel free. The First Amendment is for everyone.

That's sort of my point. You can attack it formally, as Mrs. Clinton intended to as a means of "reforming" campaign finance. Or you can try a less formal approach, such as Mr. Trump's threats of ruinous lawsuits or attempting to brand everyone you disagree with as some species of "ist" or "phobe".

I understand that it's easier to impugn motivations than to debate ideas; but I think it's worth the effort if you want to live in a society where ideas matter.

Ultralight
11-11-16, 11:57am
Of course we ned to be able to criticize bad ideas. Like the idea that our public discussion in the U.S. would lead to a reformation of Islam. Ah, not remotely a chance.

I think that it could create something of a reformation in the US or perhaps, like I said, lead more into apostasy.

Do I think it will help worldwide? Not anytime soon. But I still think that being a beacon of free speech can inspire others in the world.

When it comes to the 1st Amendment I am pretty close to an absolutist.

I agree with Abbie Hoffman: "You can't shout 'fire!' in a crowded theatre but you can shout 'theatre' in a crowded fire." ;)

And let's say you are right. Discussing the mother lode of bad ideas in Islam does not work; let's say it does nothing to reform or moderate Islam. Then at least we maintain our freedom of speech!

Remember, something like 78% of British Muslims thought the Danish cartoonist who drew Mohamed should have been prosecuted. That kind of thinking will not fly in this country! Up with this, we will not put!

ApatheticNoMore
11-11-16, 1:24pm
Why criticize Muslims any more than criticizing say Mormonism? I'm sure without any doubts many would not agree with much about Mormonism. Oh yea because all the problems in the middle east are the fault of something innate in Islam, it's innate badness or something, and not decades of U.S. (and before then the British and the French) imperialist policy. Whatever. Criticize the brutality of a country that wages 7 wars at the same time. We live in a culture that has enabled that (even if it's mostly a decision made by the very few - western culture is super hierarchical). Enabled by religion, on maybe slightly, but mostly it's no religion but the worship of Mammon.

Ultralight
11-11-16, 1:39pm
Why criticize Muslims any more than criticizing say Mormonism? I'm sure without any doubts many would not agree with much about Mormonism. Oh yea because all the problems in the middle east are the fault of something innate in Islam, it's innate badness or something, and not decades of U.S. (and before then the British and the French) imperialist policy. Whatever. Criticize the brutality of a country that wages 7 wars at the same time. We live in a culture that has enabled that (even if it's mostly a decision made by the very few - western culture is super hierarchical). Enabled by religion, on maybe slightly, but mostly it's no religion but the worship of Mammon. Have you read the Quran and/or the Hadith? That is a good place to start.

ApatheticNoMore
11-11-16, 2:20pm
I don't believe you can know everything about a religion as actually practiced by people (religion as culture as it were) by reading a thousand year old book which of course isn't going to jive with many modern sensibilities (much like the old testament doesn't). I suspect it's an anthropological not just a textual understanding iow, the text is one part of the culture. So you can say how can you possible understand Islam unless you read the Quran, ok, but I don't want to be given a reading assignment that I didn't even choose, I'm just saying reading the Quran does not by itself mean understanding Islam.

Ultralight
11-11-16, 2:23pm
I don't believe you can know everything about a religion as actually practiced by people (religion as culture as it were) by reading a thousand year old book which of course isn't going to jive with many modern sensibilities (much like the old testament doesn't). I suspect it's an anthropological not just a textual understanding iow, the text is one part of the culture.

Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of Allah (God). Are you aware of this?

Ultralight
11-11-16, 2:33pm
I don't believe you can know everything about a religion as actually practiced by people (religion as culture as it were) by reading a thousand year old book which of course isn't going to jive with many modern sensibilities (much like the old testament doesn't). I suspect it's an anthropological not just a textual understanding iow, the text is one part of the culture. So you can say how can you possible understand Islam unless you read the Quran, ok, but I don't want to be given a reading assignment that I didn't even choose, I'm just saying reading the Quran does not by itself mean understanding Islam.

I bet there are a few Islamic theocracies out there that would severely punish someone, maybe even execute them, for saying this.

Show me some Christian or Mormon or Catholic nations that will do the same for similar comments about the Bible.

LDAHL
11-11-16, 3:12pm
I bet there are a few Islamic theocracies out there that would severely punish someone, maybe even execute them, for saying this.

Show me some Christian or Mormon or Catholic nations that will do the same for similar comments about the Bible.

Catholics don't do that. Anymore.

Ultralight
11-11-16, 3:17pm
Catholics don't do that. Anymore. I know. This is probably because Christians and Christian nations have come into contact with lots of other ideas and with scientific advancement in a way that Islam and Islamic nations have not. Sam Harris and others have written and researched this extensively. If we can get Islam moderated to the point of Christianity then we will live in a safer world; people will be safer as will ideas.

bae
11-11-16, 3:18pm
I know. This is probably because Christians and Christian nations have come into contact with lots of other ideas and with scientific advancement in a way that Islam and Islamic nations have not.

~25% of the world's population is Muslim. Surely there's been *some* contact with other ideas....

Ultralight
11-11-16, 3:21pm
~25% of the world's population is Muslim. Surely there's been *some* contact with other ideas....

Read:

https://www.amazon.com/Islam-Future-Tolerance-Sam-Harris/dp/0674088700/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

LDAHL
11-11-16, 3:34pm
I know. This is probably because Christians and Christian nations have come into contact with lots of other ideas and with scientific advancement in a way that Islam and Islamic nations have not.

That, and we couldn't get away with it anymore as various monarchs decided they should be in charge of the executions.

JaneV2.0
11-11-16, 3:54pm
Catholics don't do that. Anymore.

The Inquisition, witch trials...My SO's people fled Spain before they could be roasted alive. At least some of them did.

Tybee
11-11-16, 4:26pm
The problem with calling people "we" and saying "we" means Americans when you are excluding Americans is that well, you are selecting who gets to be an American based on their beliefs, and it just does not work that way.

So the child born in America to the Muslim immigrant parents is just as much an American as the person defining being an American as having generations of American ancestors. That child does not get to take away your citizenship because as a Muslim, he thinks your ideas are heretical, or unscientific.

After your careful critical reading of the Koran, then do you plan to strip these Americans of their citizenship and deport them? I'm genuinely curious.

The Mormon example is a good one--lots of LDS folks believe things that seem absolutely like something out of an L Ron Hubbard novel to me. And I apologize to those folks in advance, as I am not mocking their beliefs, just saying I don't share them or understand them. Does that give me the right to exclude them from the "we" that are doing the analyzing of other Americans' beliefs?

Just who is this "we"?--count me out, if you are using belief tests of religion or lack of religion or "scientific fact."

I'm sure many of my fellow citizens would be scandalized by what I believe. But it's my own business, and it's their business, as we have freedom of religion, and I don't see how or why anyone would link that with citizenship.

gimmethesimplelife
11-11-16, 4:34pm
My take is that anything good happening the next four years will happen in spite of Trump, instead of because of Trump. As we say in the 85006, two bags packed at all times, running money easily accessable, and have quick access to your passport. Rob

bae
11-11-16, 4:38pm
As we say in the 85006, two bags packed at all times, running money easily accessable, and have quick access to your passport. Rob

That's a whole lotta privilege.

gimmethesimplelife
11-11-16, 5:38pm
That's a whole lotta privilege.I'm sorry, come again? I could make bo sense of your comment. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
11-11-16, 5:41pm
[QUOTE=bae;257004]That's a whole lotta privilege.[/QUOTENo, this is just the triumph of the human spirit and the refusal of the role of victim. That's all. Rob

Ultralight
11-11-16, 5:56pm
Okay, here we go...


The problem with calling people "we" and saying "we" means Americans when you are excluding Americans is that well, you are selecting who gets to be an American based on their beliefs, and it just does not work that way.

Nope. Not true. I want immigrant Muslim Americans and home-grown American Muslims to feel totally safe and comfortable playing jazz with their religious philosophy. I want them to feel safe criticizing it or leaving it. I want them to feel safe practicing Islam in peaceful ways.

I am 100% against discrimination of Muslims. I am 100% in opposition to hate crimes. Am I making myself clear?!


So the child born in America to the Muslim immigrant parents is just as much an American as the person defining being an American as having generations of American ancestors.

I would say yes. The number of generations that your family has been US citizens means nothing to me. You swore in yesterday? Welcome!

Get me now?


That child does not get to take away your citizenship because as a Muslim, he thinks your ideas are heretical, or unscientific.

Uh... What?


After your careful critical reading of the Koran, then do you plan to strip these Americans of their citizenship and deport them? I'm genuinely curious.

No, I plan to be more informed about ideas.


The Mormon example is a good one--lots of LDS folks believe things that seem absolutely like something out of an L Ron Hubbard novel to me. And I apologize to those folks in advance, as I am not mocking their beliefs, just saying I don't share them or understand them. Does that give me the right to exclude them from the "we" that are doing the analyzing of other Americans' beliefs?

I would say no.


Just who is this "we"?--count me out, if you are using belief tests of religion or lack of religion or "scientific fact."

The we I was talking about was any American who wants to criticize ideas, particularly in this context, the ideas in the Quran. But I also want us to be able to criticize any damn idea we want. I want us to be able to hold controversial opinions if we want. I have no interest in policing people's thoughts. My interests are mostly in being able to ask questions, perhaps the most fundamental of all questions that give us some sense of freedom: "Why?"


I'm sure many of my fellow citizens would be scandalized by what I believe. But it's my own business, and it's their business, as we have freedom of religion, and I don't see how or why anyone would link that with citizenship. Have any idea you want. Also: Am I being trolled here?

Tybee
11-11-16, 6:01pm
No, you are not being trolled.
I tried to explain to you why I thought your remarks about "we" were a "we" that did not include me, as I did not want to be looking at folks' religious beliefs as some sort of aspect to whether they should be citizens or not, and that was what your post seemed to imply to me.
That is what I was trying to do. I give up; I don't seem to be able to get through to you as to why I thought your use of the word "we" was ill-advised. That's all.

Ultralight
11-11-16, 6:03pm
No, you are not being trolled.
I tried to explain to you why I thought your remarks about "we" were a "we" that did not include me, as I did not want to be looking at folks' religious beliefs as some sort of aspect to whether they should be citizens or not, and that was what your post seemed to imply to me.
That is what I was trying to do. I give up; I don't seem to be able to get through to you as to why I thought your use of the word "we" was ill-advised. That's all. I don't think I was talking about stripping people of their citizenship.

iris lilies
11-11-16, 6:59pm
Denver has already exploded in protests, not against any of the economic plans or guns or abortion, the usual issues. But against racism, sexism and in protection of the LBGQT community. The only good I can see him doing is making our communities of activism much stronger.
That is an astute observation.
My neighborhood is, or was, considered the one you dont fxxk with because we regularly flex our protest muscles. We know how to hold off bad stuff, to protest, to work the system. When we dont have an outside threat, we have been known:~) to be contentious with each other, within our 'nabe, and that can be disconcerting to some. Me, I always viewed it as practice drills for when the real outside threats came.