Questions for Trump voters

[Molly]

I have some questions for those who voted for Trump. I am genuinely interested in hearing your point of view.

I'm a lifelong Democrat, and although I don't care for Hillary, I voted for her because we share the same ideologies.

So Trump voters:

1. Were you pro-Trump or anti-Hillary?
2. How do you feel about the fact that Trump, a billionaire, did not pay federal income tax for years while you did?
3. How did you feel about Trump mocking the disabled reporter?
4. How do you feel about the fact that white supremacist groups are attracted to him? Does it bother you?

I'm not here to argue. You will not change my mind and I will not change yours. I truly want to understand your point of view.

[CathyA]

Me too Molly.........but I'm not sure anyone here will admit to it. DH and I keep saying "Why? What were their reasons?".........we really would like to know.

[Ultralight]

Look, as I said in another thread.

Election of Trump was, more than anything, the workin' man's revenge. It was not rational.

But I will say I would not consider voting for Hillary to be rational either. She was no friend of the workin' man. She was a sell-out to wealthy, corporate, global elites. Workin' man don't like that at all.

[Molly]

But I will say I would not consider voting for Hillary to be rational either. She was no friend of the workin' man. She was a sell-out to wealthy, corporate, global elites. Workin' man don't like that at all.

I agree. Neither were a friend to the working person. I just can't understand why the taxpaying workin' man wasn't outraged when Trump admitted during the debates that he didn't pay federal income tax. Had Hillary done this, they would have been all over her.

I think one of the real issues that gets overlooked is entitlements to the rich. I am tired of footing the bill for the wealthy elite and paying for their immoral wars. The system is indeed rigged, and the working person is not part of it.

[Ultralight]

The workin' man is not fond of income tax.

[iris lilies]

This thread is typical of every other thread like it on other websites.

1. OP asks to hear from Trump voters to, I guess, understand (?)
2. Only non-trump,voters reply
3. Thread devolves into The usual Trump and HRC bashng

There are about a bezillon Pro Trump posts on the internet to help people understand. Why start a thread here?

I dont think iti s logical to come to a site like this that has only one person who openly supports Trump and ask about him. But that said, I will respond below.

[CathyA]

This might irritate some people, but I think a lot of the people who voted for him, voted for his outrageous behavior. Whatever they were pissed about in their lives, he led the outrage and gave them permission to be as obnoxious as they could be......even with electing a president.

[ToomuchStuff]

This thread is typical of every other thread like it on other websites.

1. OP asks to hear from Trump voters to, I guess, understand (?)
2. Only non-trump,voters reply
3. Thread devolves into The usual Trump and HRC bashng

There are about a bezillon Pro Trump posts on the internet to help people understand. Why start a thread here?

I dont think iti s logical to come to a site like this that has only one person who openly support Trump. But that said, I will respond below.

This is why we see people avoid these area's or spend less time here like Steve, or leave all together. Sides don't wish to learn, they just want to yell at one another.

[CathyA]

This thread is typical of every other thread like it on other websites.

1. OP asks to hear from Trump voters to, I guess, understand (?)
2. Only non-trump,voters reply
3. Thread devolves into The usual Trump and HRC bashng

There are about a bezillon Pro Trump posts on the internet to help people understand. Why start a thread here?

I dont think iti s logical to come to a site like this that has only one person who openly support Trump. But that said, I will respond below.

Well, IL, lots of people ask questions here that could be asked elsewhere. Maybe Molly hasn't been around here enough to know everything that's ever been discussed, or know how few conservatives there are here. No need to get rude.

[CathyA]

This is why we see people avoid these area's or spend less time here like Steve, or leave all together. Sides don't wish to learn, they just want to yell at one another.

I think about the only people who yell here are mostly conservatives. I know I've brought up some issues that most of the "liberals" on this site wouldn't go near, but I was pretty sure they would agree with me. That's how they approach life.........be nice, don't make waves, so we don't get into an argument that nobody wins....which in a lot of cases is a good way to be.

[iris lilies]

Well, IL, lots of people ask questions here that could be asked elsewhere. Maybe Molly hasn't been around here enough to know everything that's ever been discussed, or know how few conservatives there are here. No need to get rude.
Show me where the Trump apologists are explaining their point of view here.

[ToomuchStuff]

Well, IL, lots of people ask questions here that could be asked elsewhere. Maybe Molly hasn't been around here enough to know everything that's ever been discussed, or know how few conservatives there are here. No need to get rude.
She has been a member since almost the beginning of this forum. (December 31, 2010 forum, she since Feb 2011)
I didn't vote for either candidate, so number 1, would be neither.
2. Was what he did legal (isn't that what the audit is about). If you find something immoral you can change what you do, not what others do. I expect any of either party of congress, or other branches, would have done the same.
3. Does he not have freedom of speech? That has nothing to do with common courtesy or decency, or ones doing foot in mouth things to keep the media's attention focused on him.
4. Why would him wanting an ignorance vote matter to me. He wanted ALL votes. So did she.

[iris lilies]

OP--

Your questions are right out of the mainstream media's narrative. They reflect only superficial issues of Trump, 5 second sound bites. These media bites are intended to manipulate.

But since you asked, I will, as a non-Trump voter, answer.

1) Of course I don't like him not paying corporate taxes, but it is legal. Dont like it? Change the tax laws. He would have been stupid to ignore any tax break. Do you take advantage of tax laws?

2) Making fun of handicapped reporter bothered me. It bothered me enough to look carefully behind the media's story. There is pretty convincing evidence that Trump had no idea the reporter he mocked had a handicap. He was respondng ro an old news story, not to a reporter speaking. You, of course, wont be convinced since you have told us your mind wont be changed.

3) Trump has no control over wackjob groups that endorse him. certain nly he came off as strong on illegal immihration, and that group favors that point of view. I think a focus on illegal immigratin isnt wrong (although it is probably hopeless) and that doesnt make me a KKK sympathizer.

[Molly]

Well, IL, lots of people ask questions here that could be asked elsewhere. Maybe Molly hasn't been around here enough to know everything that's ever been discussed, or know how few conservatives there are here. No need to get rude.

You are exactly right. I don't check in much and have no idea how many conservatives are here. I asked questions to learn and understand. Thank you CathyA.

[ToomuchStuff]

I think about the only people who yell here are mostly conservatives. I know I've brought up some issues that most of the "liberals" on this site wouldn't go near, but I was pretty sure they would agree with me. That's how they approach life.........be nice, don't make waves, so we don't get into an argument that nobody wins....which in a lot of cases is a good way to be.
In the time I have been here, that as does politics, swings. It was mostly liberal yelling when I first joined. (Peggy, Redfox, etc)

[iris lilies]

You are exactly right. I don't check in much and have no idea how many conservatives are here. I asked questions to learn and understand. Thank you CathyA.
Oh there are conservatives here. Your questions reveal what you, yourself are bothered by in Donald Trump. Those issues may not be their Trump concerns.

[LDAHL]

I would argue that Donald Trump is no conservative in any meaningful sense.

I would also suspect some posters here might credibly argue that Hillary Clinton is at best a funny kind of liberal.

[Zoe Girl]

Oh there are conservatives here. Your questions reveal what you, yourself are bothered by in Donald Trump. Those issues may not be their Trump concerns.

I have continually said I don't have a problem with conservatives, even if I don't agree I have respect for their voice and their vote. However I do have a problem with all the racism and sexism and other issues that have been put together in this election. These are not the conservatives I know, but I need to hear from people to know where they fall.

[catherine]

Since my DH and I are a James Carville/Mary Matalin couple whose votes always cancel each other's out, I can tell you why my DH voted for Trump. We were standing in line to vote, and he was behind me, whispering in my ear, "Come on! Vote for Trump! Stir the pot! Drain the swamp!"

I think that from his POV, aside from hating Hillary, he is very frustrated with the whole Washington insider thing. The phrase "drain the swamp" meant something to him. It meant getting rid of shady back-room deals and gridlock and government inefficiency. DH is also a huge proponent of term limits.

I think for people who are like-minded, their frustrations with the status quo "trumped" (that phrase will forever take on a different meaning) the "shortcomings" Trump exhibited in terms of delicacy and civility. In fact the political incorrectness/outright bigotry was another marker for the rejection of the status quo.

DH also predicted that there were people like him--closet Trump supporters who didn't want to admit it. I think all the surprised pundits and pollsters have figured that out by now.

[Alan]

I have some questions for those who voted for Trump. I am genuinely interested in hearing your point of view.

I'm a lifelong Democrat, and although I don't care for Hillary, I voted for her because we share the same ideologies.

So Trump voters:

1. Were you pro-Trump or anti-Hillary?
2. How do you feel about the fact that Trump, a billionaire, did not pay federal income tax for years while you did?
3. How did you feel about Trump mocking the disabled reporter?
4. How do you feel about the fact that white supremacist groups are attracted to him? Does it bother you?

I'm not here to argue. You will not change my mind and I will not change yours. I truly want to understand your point of view.

I voted a straight party ticket, with Trump at the top. He wasn't my choice as a representative of the party, but he ended up as my only option. That's the way it goes sometimes.

It wasn't that hard to do because like you I vote for the party that comes closest to sharing my ideologies. I'm not sure what Trump's true ideology is but I do know that the Democrats will always stretch the boundaries of Constitutional limitations to serve their own purposes, as may the Republicans as well, but at least the Republicans pay lip service to limiting governmental involvement in personal lives.

I also don't see the President as some all-powerful being un-bound by the checks and balances our Constitution requires. I believe in a Republican form of government and I'm not at all sure that many Democrats do. This severely limits my choices in any National election.

So, to answer your questions:

1. Anti-Hillary, although it wasn't personal.
2. It didn't bother me that Trump may have not paid income tax. He adhered to the rules and it worked in his favor, that's an institutional problem at worst although I'm not sure of that either. There should be a way to deal with losses, it's only fair. Taking advantage of it is not a personal failing.
3. I thought that was terrible. He shouldn't have done it.
4. I think white supremacist groups are attracted to anyone who stands up for the right to free speech and freedom of association. I wish they'd go away, but no one candidate is responsible for them.

I'm also not trying to change your mind but I do find it curious anyone would intentionally ask others to justify their vote. I know your questions are carefully couched differently, but it seems obvious that is the intent. That's OK though, all discussion is good discussion.

[Float On]

Do you know how hard it is to be a Christian and a Republican....who voted for Hillary? Keeping very quiet over here in my little corner of the bible belt of America.

[bae]

I'm not here to argue. You will not change my mind and I will not change yours. I truly want to understand your point of view.

I'm not a Trump voter (I didn't vote for either Democrat candidate), but your questions are loaded and not likely to produce honest and open discourse.

[CathyA]

I'm not a Trump voter (I didn't vote for either Democrat candidate), but your questions are loaded and not likely to produce honest and open discourse.

Why not? (as to the last part of your statement). Alan and catherine gave some good answers. It's nice to hear specifics. I know Trump said a lot of things that he would do, but some were outrageous, so it would be nice to hear exactly what Trump-voters zeroed in on that they thought was important and believable.

[LDAHL]

In my case it was simple. I didn't consider either of the major party candidates to be fit for the office. And I was willing to stomach Bob Dole.

[Aqua Blue]

Do you know how hard it is to be a Christian and a Republican....who voted for Hillary? Keeping very quiet over here in my little corner of the bible belt of America.

same here, only upper Midwest! I try to keep a very very low profile. I have had people quite inviting me to things when they found out second hand no less that I am not a fox "news" follower.

[Tybee]

I did not vote for Clinton or Trump, as I did not think either fit for the office.

I imagine that many people voting for Trump did what Bernie supporters were urged to do, "hold your nose and vote for the party nominee."

[greenclaire]

I didn't vote....for the obvious reason I'm not American. However, I asked my partner's Mom the questions, she's a Trump supporter in the rural South.

1. Were you pro-Trump or anti-Hillary?
She was both, definite anti-Hillary but she also does think Trump will do some good things for their part of the country which has felt neglected under the Obama administration.

2. How do you feel about the fact that Trump, a billionaire, did not pay federal income tax for years while you did?
He hasn't done anything illegal and most people would stick to the rules to pay less tax if they could.

3. How did you feel about Trump mocking the disabled reporter?
Shocking, she does hope he learns to change some of his behaviors and learns to behave!

4. How do you feel about the fact that white supremacist groups are attracted to him? Does it bother you?
Yes, racism bothers her.

[Ultralight]

I voted Jill Stein and for all the other Greens running.

[bae]

I voted Jill Stein and for all the other Greens running.

It'd sure be nice if we had a real Green party.

[creaker]

I did not vote for Clinton or Trump, as I did not think either fit for the office.

I imagine that many people voting for Trump did what Bernie supporters were urged to do, "hold your nose and vote for the party nominee."

I voted for Clinton holding my nose - 4 more years of the same sounded better than what's coming.

It hasn't been a week yet and Trump is already walking back what he campaigned on. I wonder how people will feel when they find out a lot of it really was just "effective campaign devices".

[JaneV2.0]

Anyone who thought Trump was an "outsider" or a "maverick" was deluded. You have only to watch what he's surrounding himself with--a claque of Republican party hacks and has-beens, to see that. And, since he knows nothing about governing, he'll lean on heavily on them. I'm trying not to feel dread, but it's an uphill battle.

[Zoe Girl]

I'm also not trying to change your mind but I do find it curious anyone would intentionally ask others to justify their vote. I know your questions are carefully couched differently, but it seems obvious that is the intent. That's OK though, all discussion is good discussion.

I haven't asked similar questions because I don't know how to ask them well. I just would like to know how many people really are okay with the racism and other isms that surround him to get a feel if people held their nose on that or were really into it.

[Tradd]

Held my nose. There was no f'ing way I would vote for HRC. Absolutely no way. And voting third party was a vote for her, as far as I was concerned. So it was GOP. Period.

[Tybee]

I haven't asked similar questions because I don't know how to ask them well. I just would like to know how many people really are okay with the racism and other isms that surround him to get a feel if people held their nose on that or were really into it.

Maybe you could couch it in those terms? I know that there was no way I could ever vote for Trump because of what he said and did to women, people of color, disabled people, immigrants, Muslims--the list got so long I lost track. And if you can't vote for Hillary because you remember the first Clinton sideshow and what those folks are capable of--it didn't leave the voter with a clear path, did it?

[Zoe Girl]

Yeah, I have felt bad for my conservative friends for over a year. Several I know as openly non-racist and supportive of the LGBTQ community. So I am not judging how someone voted because it was really a rough one. There are others, my brother's family, that I simply don't know where it falls. In the first day or 2 I wasn't sure I could be around my brother's family (they live far away). I talked to him on the phone for my birthday and we did touch on some things, he really thinks things aren't so bad. It isn't a concern in a white community, a white work environment and his family is white. For me I want to know if I visit them will I hear things I need to speak up about. That is all. However I know on the scale of openness to closed in our family I am the highest for openness and my brother is probably the most closed. So every time I talk to him I try to keep that door open for communication, gently and non-judgy.

[Alan]

So every time I talk to him I try to keep that door open for communication, gently and non-judgy.Are you sure? It seems to me that if you go into any conversation with a friend or loved one thinking that their political affiliation makes them a racist or homophobe, you're probably missing the mark on that non-judgy thing.

[goldensmom]

In answer to your questions:


1. Neither. I am pro Republican platform and Trump happened to be at the top.
2. Doesn’t bother me at all. If he did not break any IRS laws then it’s not my business and it‘s not my business if he did break laws, that‘s his problem.
3. I saw the incident in one pro Clinton ad and from what I saw it was unnecessary, insensitive, stupid.
4. No, it does not bother. No one can control who is attracted to who.


These are honest answers because you asked. If you are truly trying to understand then that is admirable although I doubt my answers will be helpful to you. I don’t mind sharing my opinions if I’m not going to get called every -phobic, -ists and -isms out there. Because I don’t like bananas doesn’t make me a bananaphotbic (I don‘t fear bananas).

[Zoe Girl]

Are you sure? It seems to me that if you go into any conversation with a friend or loved one thinking that their political affiliation makes them a racist or homophobe, you're probably missing the mark on that non-judgy thing.

I think my assumption that the majority of people are non-racist was proven false. So facing reality and looking for what my path forward is. I assumed that my brother was similar on at least those issues based on the way we were raised (gay friends, welcoming to my teenage transgender friends, my parents having a strong boundary around racist comments and joke) but he is showing in ways other than voting that we do not agree there.

[ToomuchStuff]

I think my assumption that the majority of people are non-racist was proven false. So facing reality and looking for what my path forward is. I assumed that my brother was similar on at least those issues based on the way we were raised (gay friends, welcoming to my teenage transgender friends, my parents having a strong boundary around racist comments and joke) but he is showing in ways other than voting that we do not agree there.

So everybody else is guilty, because your brother is? That is still bias and judgmental.

[Zoe Girl]

So everybody else is guilty, because your brother is? That is still bias and judgmental.

No, it is based on his comments over the years. I have been to family events where I was basically called a heathen and no one said anything to me publicly or privately. I have given every chance at this point and I am tired of wondering. However if you have advice about what I should do about the daily reports I am getting about violence I would love to hear it. I have never posted here in all my years that I assume conservatives are racist or homophobic. I am struggling to understand what is happening. I understand anger towards systems that do not support what people want, I do not understand this and am deeply emotional about it. My department is struggling, my kids and families are struggling to the point I have worked with parents who are in tears about it. Based on those things I am questioning my assumptions. I ask in full vulnerability, and this is hard, help me understand this.

[Tradd]

Well, it's apparently not conservatives who are out protesting and rioting, damaging property. A high school girl got beaten for saying she supported Trump.

If people are in the country illegally, then yes, they may have a problem. They are here illegally. What did they think was going to happen to them? Mexico doesn't allow illegals in, and throws them out or in jail if they are caught. Why is the US supposed to bend over backwards for people who have broken the law? If illegals start wailing and gnashing their teeth, about the children or spouse or other family members they would have to leave behind, sorry, you brought it upon yourself. Actions have consequences. I know plenty of legal immigrants who are not thrilled with illegals.

A lot of conservatives I know hope CBP/ICE/Border Patrol get illegals with criminal records out first.

[Tybee]

I think my assumption that the majority of people are non-racist was proven false. So facing reality and looking for what my path forward is. I assumed that my brother was similar on at least those issues based on the way we were raised (gay friends, welcoming to my teenage transgender friends, my parents having a strong boundary around racist comments and joke) but he is showing in ways other than voting that we do not agree there.

I think you are conflating two separate things, erroneously. You are seeing anyone who voted for Trump as being racist because they either ignored his remarks or they agree with the remarks. You can't make that assumption. It's like a venn diagram, with voting for Trump being in the overlap of the groups. It doesn't mean that anyone voting for Trump is in the racist bubble. They might be. But they are not necessarily.

[bae]

I'm a conservative. I'm not a Republican anymore. Has to do with their platform, not with their candidate.

For instance, the LGBTQ folks rioting in the streets or hiding in their closets now because "Trump won!" probably would have done better to riot in the streets when the Republicans (not Trump) were working on their quite unfriendly party platform this year. That's when I told our local party, who sent me as a delegate last election cycle, to go get stuffed.

[JaneV2.0]

I think you are conflating two separate things, erroneously. You are seeing anyone who voted for Trump as being racist because they either ignored his remarks or they agree with the remarks. You can't make that assumption. It's like a venn diagram, with voting for Trump being in the overlap of the groups. It doesn't mean that anyone voting for Trump is in the racist bubble. They might be. But they are not necessarily.

That's true. They may be in the anti-environment/pro fossil fuel bubble; the misogynist bubble; the ableist bubble; the anti-Semitic bubble; the sexual exploiter bubble; the pro-torture bubble; the saber-rattling bubble; the Twitter avenger bubble; the gay hater bubble; the phony religionist bubble...The guy is a veritable bubble machine, isn't he?

[JaneV2.0]

One of my relatives demonstrated in Portland last night, pushing a walker. The small destructive element was composed of known troublemakers calling themselves anarchists. When I was able, I marched and demonstrated as well. Always peacefully, sometimes with thousands of other Americans, doing what we had every legal right to do. And I will write letters and support causes I believe in with money and however I can.

[Tybee]

One of my relatives demonstrated in Portland last night, pushing a walker. The small destructive element was composed of known troublemakers calling themselves anarchists. When I was able, I marched and demonstrated as well. Always peacefully, sometimes with thousands of other Americans, doing what we had every legal right to do. And I will write letters and support causes I believe in with money and however I can.

As did I, Jane, even when I wasn't physically able.
I have been working for justice and peace since I worked for Gene McCarthy and did Quaker draft counseling to keep young men my age from being blown up in Vietnam.
I did not vote for Trump.
The people I have talked to who did vote for Trump are in none of the bubbles you listed.
That is what I was trying to say, not well, apparently.

[bae]

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/153080448451/the-cognitive-dissonance-cluster-bomb

[razz]

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/153080448451/the-cognitive-dissonance-cluster-bomb
That is the best way of explaining many things going on in our world. We run our own movies in our own heads and wonder why others don't see things the same way. Love it! Better than my explanation that some people see the world with a 360 degree mirror and wonder why others don't see the same things as important.

[iris lilies]

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/153080448451/the-cognitive-dissonance-cluster-bomb
Pretty good arricle.

[awakenedsoul]

I have some questions for those who voted for Trump. I am genuinely interested in hearing your point of view.

I'm a lifelong Democrat, and although I don't care for Hillary, I voted for her because we share the same ideologies.

So Trump voters:

1. Were you pro-Trump or anti-Hillary?
2. How do you feel about the fact that Trump, a billionaire, did not pay federal income tax for years while you did?
3. How did you feel about Trump mocking the disabled reporter?
4. How do you feel about the fact that white supremacist groups are attracted to him? Does it bother you?

I'm not here to argue. You will not change my mind and I will not change yours. I truly want to understand your point of view.

Hi Molly,

You sound very sincere. I didn't vote. I couldn't stomach what was happening. I do have some thoughts on your questions, though. Both candidates seemed like terribly poor choices to me. All along I had a feeling that Trump might win, though. The media slant bothered me. They kept saying that Hilary had this enormous lead, when she didn't. I really felt like they were doing all they could to sabotage him.

I didn't see him mock the reporter. I don't trust the media, though. I've seen too many things that are staged and exaggerated. I would have to study the tape and learn the details.

I don't like groups like that in general. I also have seen a lot of group hate among other races and types of people, as well. (especially white hate.)

Oh, and as far as income taxes...as a business owner, I strive to not owe any taxes, either. I put a lot of my profits back into my business. You reinvest in your materials, training, advertising, etc. It's expensive. When you own a business, you are running your profit and loss statements every month. He has provided a lot of jobs for people, and I do believe he has a talent for business and with money.

The main thing that I was concerned about in this election was the fact that he was going to establish border control and deportation. I live in an area that would benefit from this action. I won't go into my personal situation, but since he has been elected it has really helped in my neighborhood. People who had no respect for the law here are now careful and considerate. It's made a huge difference. I am extremely concerned with what is happening in Germany, and I don't feel safe bringing in all of those people from Syria. I agree with Trump when he says we need to take care of our own people.

I also feel for business owners and the amount of money they pay for health insurance. I believe we need more jobs in America. If Trump can bring back work to America, instead of having so many people here replaced by those overseas, I think it will greatly help our economy. Dave Ramsey has 500 employees in his company. His health insurance went up by a million dollars this year with Obamacare. It's just not doable for most business owners. So many small businesses have closed.

A close friend of mine is Mexican American, and she voted for Trump. She owns a business. She also came into this country legally, and she doesn't like people just coming here. California is a mess. It's really changed in the past twenty years.

I think part of the reason that Trump won had to do with Clinton's sexuality. A lot of people don't approve of the lifestyle she and Bill were living in the White House. All of this new transgender stuff doesn't appeal to many Americans. I hear the parents talking about how the bathrooms are coed in college...and their girls are expected to shower with the guys in the dorms. It doesn't sound safe to me. No boundaries. Way too loose, in my opinion. (and I'm a dancer who has many many close friends who are gay.) I just don't think most of middle America understands or supports it.

That's just my take on it. I don't generally discuss politics, but you sounded like you were really interested. Oh, and also, I was very exhausted by how many people on Facebook were just assuming Hillary was going to win. They seemed so overconfident.

[creaker]

That is the best way of explaining many things going on in our world. We run our own movies in our own heads and wonder why others don't see things the same way. Love it! Better than my explanation that some people see the world with a 360 degree mirror and wonder why others don't see the same things as important.

The caveat being the author is taking the movie in his own head and providing that as the explanation. I think there is truth in the concept but the application here is generalized and oversimplified.

Personally, I'm totally befuddled. I'm trying reconcile the political preferences of people I know against the people I believe them to be. And it's not working. I'll work on it, but it may be something else I eventually just need to let go of.

[CathyA]

Hi Molly,

You sound very sincere. I didn't vote. I couldn't stomach what was happening. I do have some thoughts on your questions, though. Both candidates seemed like terribly poor choices to me. All along I had a feeling that Trump might win, though. The media slant bothered me. They kept saying that Hilary had this enormous lead, when she didn't. I really felt like they were doing all they could to sabotage him.

I didn't see him mock the reporter. I don't trust the media, though. I've seen too many things that are staged and exaggerated. I would have to study the tape and learn the details.

I don't like groups like that in general. I also have seen a lot of group hate among other races and types of people, as well. (especially white hate.)

Oh, and as far as income taxes...as a business owner, I strive to not owe any taxes, either. I put a lot of my profits back into my business. You reinvest in your materials, training, advertising, etc. It's expensive. When you own a business, you are running your profit and loss statements every month. He has provided a lot of jobs for people, and I do believe he has a talent for business and with money.

The main thing that I was concerned about in this election was the fact that he was going to establish border control and deportation. I live in an area that would benefit from this action. I won't go into my personal situation, but since he has been elected it has really helped in my neighborhood. People who had no respect for the law here are now careful and considerate. It's made a huge difference. I am extremely concerned with what is happening in Germany, and I don't feel safe bringing in all of those people from Syria. I agree with Trump when he says we need to take care of our own people.

I also feel for business owners and the amount of money they pay for health insurance. I believe we need more jobs in America. If Trump can bring back work to America, instead of having so many people here replaced by those overseas, I think it will greatly help our economy. Dave Ramsey has 500 employees in his company. His health insurance went up by a million dollars this year with Obamacare. It's just not doable for most business owners. So many small businesses have closed.

A close friend of mine is Mexican American, and she voted for Trump. She owns a business. She also came into this country legally, and she doesn't like people just coming here. California is a mess. It's really changed in the past twenty years.

I think part of the reason that Trump won had to do with Clinton's sexuality. A lot of people don't approve of the lifestyle she and Bill were living in the White House. All of this new transgender stuff doesn't appeal to many Americans. I hear the parents talking about how the bathrooms are coed in college...and their girls are expected to shower with the guys in college. It doesn't sound safe to me. No boundaries. Way too loose, in my opinion. (and I'm a dancer who has many many close friends who are gay.) I just don't think most of middle America understands or supports it.

That's just my take on it. I don't generally discuss politics, but you sounded like you were really interested. Oh, and also, I was very exhausted by how many people on Facebook were just assuming Hillary was going to win. They seemed so overconfident.

This was a very nice post, awakenedsoul. By the way.....how are your hips doing?

[JaneV2.0]

As did I, Jane, even when I wasn't physically able.
I have been working for justice and peace since I worked for Gene McCarthy and did Quaker draft counseling to keep young men my age from being blown up in Vietnam.
I did not vote for Trump.
The people I have talked to who did vote for Trump are in none of the bubbles you listed.
That is what I was trying to say, not well, apparently.

Two responses: I think I got your first point--that good-hearted people may have voted for Trump, completely aside from his racism.
But how do they excuse all his other "isms?" To me, he's despicable in every way a human can be without being a murderous psychopath.

Also, I wasn't trying to paint myself as a political activist at all--and kudos for doing your part though disabled--just pointing out that it is an American tradition to demonstrate and protest--in fact, protest is what this nation was founded on. We should all do something to advance society, and protest is one of many things we can do.

[awakenedsoul]

This was a very nice post, awakenedsoul. By the way.....how are your hips doing?

Thanks CathyA. The hips are doing great...they feel invisible most of the time. I hope you are doing well and are not in pain.

I just remembered one more thing, (and I want to stress that I see Trump's flaws, and I don't admire him morally, or look up to him.) My dad told me this, "You know, Hilary reminds me of Eva Perron. The economy went down the toilet in Argentina after she was president." That really resonated with me. I think the economy can be repaired and that Trump knows what to do for businesses.

That doesn't mean I'm not worried about global warming and other issues. It's complicated. These are just some of the reasons I think people may have voted for him. My dad had a very successful business...

[Tybee]

Two responses: I think I got your first point--that good-hearted people may have voted for Trump, completely aside from his racism.
But how do they excuse all his other "isms?" To me, he's despicable in every way a human can be without being a murderous psychopath.

Also, I wasn't trying to paint myself as a political activist at all--and kudos for doing your part though disabled--just pointing out that it is an American tradition to demonstrate and protest--in fact, protest is what this nation was founded on. We should all do something to advance society, and protest is one of many things we can do.

I agree completely. And I can't help but think the best thing, as well as the most politically expedient thing, Trump could be doing right now is reaching out to the protesters and trying to learn from them.

[catherine]

Did anyone catch the 20/20 episode last night? It was a bit of a mini-biopic about Trump. The thing that got me most was a clip from a Barbara Walters interview (it looked like it must have been from the 80s). He told her about a Christmas when both he and his brother got blocks. Donald took the blocks from his brother and made a big (probably "yuuuge") building with the blocks. He then glued them together so his brother couldn't get his blocks back. That one anecdote says a lot about the next POTUS.

[dmc]

1. I'm anti Hillary
2. I'm sure he didn't break any laws. I try not to pay more than I have to.
3. Didn't see the clip.
4. Doesn't bother me any more than the radical black groups supporting Obama.

[eleighj]

1. Were you pro-Trump or anti-Hillary? Pro-Trump, I have had enough of the Clintons and the Bushes.

2. How do you feel about the fact that Trump, a billionaire, did not pay federal income tax for years while you did? If he is following the rules more power to him! I expect that any tax return filed by him or any of his companies is audited by the IRS and other government agencies.

3. How did you feel about Trump mocking the disabled reporter? Never saw it, then I am a deplorable according to Hillary.

4. How do you feel about the fact that white supremacist groups are attracted to him? Does it bother you? No.

[jp1]

I haven't asked similar questions because I don't know how to ask them well. I just would like to know how many people really are okay with the racism and other isms that surround him to get a feel if people held their nose on that or were really into it.

This article does, in my opinion, a very good explanation regarding the racism, etc, that was such a central part of his rhetoric throughout the campaign.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

Trigger warning for Trump supporters, what the author says is that you may not be a racist but you were willing to support racism to get the rest of the package that Trump was offering.

[JaneV2.0]

Did anyone catch the 20/20 episode last night? It was a bit of a mini-biopic about Trump. The thing that got me most was a clip from a Barbara Walters interview (it looked like it must have been from the 80s). He told her about a Christmas when both he and his brother got blocks. Donald took the blocks from his brother and made a big (probably "yuuuge") building with the blocks. He then glued them together so his brother couldn't get his blocks back. That one anecdote says a lot about the next POTUS.

Psychologists say our character is formed by six or so. This doesn't surprise me; he seems in every way to be a despicable person, and I suspect he was so right out of the womb.

[CathyA]

Did anyone catch the 20/20 episode last night? It was a bit of a mini-biopic about Trump. The thing that got me most was a clip from a Barbara Walters interview (it looked like it must have been from the 80s). He told her about a Christmas when both he and his brother got blocks. Donald took the blocks from his brother and made a big (probably "yuuuge") building with the blocks. He then glued them together so his brother couldn't get his blocks back. That one anecdote says a lot about the next POTUS.

That's very sad....and scary. I suppose Trump thought that was a very smart thing to do?? Can you spell N-a-r-c-i-s-s-i-s-t?

[CathyA]

See Molly.........yours was a good question!

[ApatheticNoMore]

This article does, in my opinion, a very good explanation regarding the racism, etc, that was such a central part of his rhetoric throughout the campaign.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/1...ory-of-racism/

Trigger warning for Trump supporters, what the author says is that you may not be a racist but you were willing to support racism to get the rest of the package that Trump was offering.

I don't see it as any more convincing than saying that voting for Hillary is abetting corruption, and voting for any corruption in government being ok. I really do think that would be part of the message sent, even though it would be noone's intent in the voting booth.

[Tybee]

I don't see it as any more convincing than saying that voting for Hillary is abetting corruption, and voting for any corruption in government being ok. I really do think that would be part of the message sent, even though it would be noone's intent in the voting booth.

See, there's where I come out, too, APN.
I think all this internet shaming that we have seen doesn't really do any good anyway--it certainly didn't work this year, did it?

[iris lilies]

This article does, in my opinion, a very good explanation regarding the racism, etc, that was such a central part of his rhetoric throughout the campaign.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

Trigger warning for Trump supporters, what the author says is that you may not be a racist but you were willing to support racism to get the rest of the package that Trump was offering.

Havent read the article,yet. But yes, "racism" may not be everyone's No. 1 priority in this federal election.

[jp1]

I don't see it as any more convincing than saying that voting for Hillary is abetting corruption, and voting for any corruption in government being ok. I really do think that would be part of the message sent, even though it would be noone's intent in the voting booth.

But she didn't run on a campaign of supporting corruption, whereas Trump most decidedly did run a campaign in favor of xenophobia and racism.

And even if they are equivalent I guess all that means is that I was less concerned about corruption and more concerned about racism. Different priorities for different folks. Or it means that I don't believe for a minute that shady donald is going to reduce corruption in DC and therefore it was a non-issue with regards to Hillary.

[Tybee]

Honestly, I think the best way to understand this year's election is probably Nash game theory.

[iris lilies]

...Different priorities for different folks....

By Jove, I think he's got it!

[ApatheticNoMore]

Honestly, I think the best way to understand this year's election is probably Nash game theory.

care to elaborate? I do think some people voted for Trump not thinking he could possibly win and just wanting to send a message (basically against the establishment).

[Tybee]

It's just an intuitive leap, APN, and God knows I am no theorist. But since I can't explain it myself, I just googled to see what others had come up with, and yeah, others thought of this too, and actually can explain it, which I can't. Here's two articles:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/06/17/heres-how-game-theory-helps-explain-donald-trumps-strategies/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/5/18/1527831/-Game-theory-Nash-equilibri

I just kept seeing Russell Crowe in my mind when he gets the flash of insight about dating, that's why I brought it up.

[Ultralight]

Nash game theory.

bae? Thoughts?

[Alan]

See, there's where I come out, too, APN.
I think all this internet shaming that we have seen doesn't really do any good anyway--it certainly didn't work this year, did it?
Sure it did. Years of internet/social media/broadcast media shaming and condescension helped create our current political climate. The recipe was followed to a T, yet the main course and most of the side dishes proved different than the cookbook suggested.

There's a lesson to be learned there.

[LDAHL]

Sure it did. Years of internet/social media/broadcast media shaming and condescension helped create our current political climate. The recipe just didn't turn out the way the cooks expected.

I think that's true.

I keep hearing about a backlash against social progress by people angry over diminished privilege, but I think there is also a large element of resentment of the constant hectoring and disdain from some of the more privileged members of society accusing people of bigotry and ignorance.

After years of that, many were willing to vote for a boorish lout simply to sneer back at the condescending classes.

[Tybee]

Right, that would appear to be the unfortunate side effect of that kind of internet posturing and virtue signaling.

[JaneV2.0]

If anyone thinks he respects working class people or their concerns, there's a degree from Trump University waiting for them.

[iris lilies]

If anyone thinks he respects working class people or their concerns, there's a degree from Trump University waiting for them.
This made me snort, I admit it.

[Ultralight]

I think that's true.

I keep hearing about a backlash against social progress by people angry over diminished privilege, but I think there is also a large element of resentment of the constant hectoring and disdain from some of the more privileged members of society accusing people of bigotry and ignorance.

After years of that, many were willing to vote for a boorish lout simply to sneer back at the condescending classes.
I think a lot of white folks perceived them being called racists all the time as people calling them racists all the time. ;) And I think a lot of white folks were really annoyed by that. The original sin of white guilt ticked some white people off; they called bull-hit on it. And for the white workin' man whose teenage daughter is knocked up by a felon, whose son is an unemployed heroin addict, and whose wife done left him after he lost his job three years ago white privilege is something he laughs cynically at.

[ApatheticNoMore]

And yet it's still true that blacks are more likely to serve time and serve more time for the same crime - and this in a country that arrests more of it's citizens than just about anywhere else, that black rates of unemployment are higher, that black household wealth is less and took a greater hit and recovered less than white wealth did from the recession in 2008 (it really never recovered), that there is open but more often unconscious bias in hiring, that there has long been discrimination in housing etc.. I guess that's why they call it systemic.

[Ultralight]

And it's still true that blacks are more likely to serve time and serve more time for the same crime - and this in a country that arrests more of it's citizens than just about anywhere else, that black rates of unemployment are higher, that black household wealth is less and took a greater hit and recovered less than white wealth did from the recession in 2008 (it really never recovered), that there is open but more often unconscious bias in hiring, that there has long been discrimination in housing etc..

This is true, I'd say.

[bae]

bae? Thoughts?

Examining the stability of systems in Nash equilibrium often assumes continuous/finite behaviour in the underlying rule-set/payoffs.

It doesn't account well for Black Swan like events:

Bobby and Billy are playing checkers. Billy is losing. Billy whistles to his dog, who sweeps the board with his tail, and Billy proclaims "Ooops. Well then, we're playing chess now".

Another potential issue is that systems in Nash equilibrium may not be Pareto optimal. (See "Tragedy of the Commons")

[Tybee]

Examining the stability of systems in Nash equilibrium often assumes continuous/finite behaviour in the underlying rule-set/payoffs.

It doesn't account well for Black Swan like events:

Bobby and Billy are playing checkers. Billy is losing. Billy whistles to his dog, who sweeps the board with his tail, and Billy proclaims "Ooops. Well then, we're playing chess now".

Another potential issue is that systems in Nash equilibrium may not be Pareto optimal. (See "Tragedy of the Commons")

I did wonder if the Podesta emails had a Pareto principle kind of effect.

[Ultralight]

Examining the stability of systems in Nash equilibrium often assumes continuous/finite behaviour in the underlying rule-set/payoffs.

It doesn't account well for Black Swan like events:

Bobby and Billy are playing checkers. Billy is losing. Billy whistles to his dog, who sweeps the board with his tail, and Billy proclaims "Ooops. Well then, we're playing chess now".

Another potential issue is that systems in Nash equilibrium may not be Pareto optimal. (See "Tragedy of the Commons")

:cool:

[Williamsmith]

I intended to continue reading as a guest because I believe that exposing oneself to ideas that are contrary to ones own keep a person from migrating to places where everyone thinks like you. Soon your mind contracts and all you are willing to do is participate in echo chambers where the same ideology is repeated until you become a drone on auto pilot.

This place certainly stretches my imagination. But checking in has its various dangers and one of them is that you can never be sure your last post.....is your last. Even if promised that it is. For that I apologize. And I justify it by convincing myself that perhaps I have something to say worth reading. Likely not, but nobody really knows who I am although I think some might someday. Maybe it's just because you guys are so polite and well meaning in your conversation. That is hard to find.

Anyway, I was thinking about being a kid back in the day......riding my five speed scwhinn bike with the high handle bars and the banana seat and sissy bar. I used to do wheelies for long distances and ride all over the mill hunky community I lived in. When I got tired I sat on somebody's porch. When I got thirsty I drank out of somebody's garden hose. I seem to recall everybody had a mom and a dad. Dad , of course, worked in the mill. Most worked rotating shifts but mom was always home. It seemed also like an ideal life. I thought everybody lived this way. Filterless cigarettes, Beer, mowing lawns, erecting swimming pools, trading in cars, tilling up gardens, comparing Christmas toys, new televisions, dinner at 4:30. Everyday without fail......dinner at 4:30.

The flag always flew at school, nobody stepped foot on the grass, and the Principle wielded a thick paddle with holes in it. I got it a couple times and deserved it.

Heavy nostalgia. None of my friends, nobody I knew was a white collar family. We all belonged to the working class. Proudly, Looked forward to making it on blood, sweat and tears. The backbone of the society as it were. And so we grew up, not having any idea where this life would lead us...not having a clue how everything we valued would be gone.

And for awhile, it seemed like we all accepted it. We were too busy raising kids and making our way in the new paradigm. I don't know exactly when but we started getting the feeling like we were being taken advantage of. People laughed at us behind our backs as if they knew something we didn't. Then they laughed in our faces as if we couldn't do anything about it. Pretty soon it felt like we were getting dust kicked in our faces like we didn't belong anymore.

And thats when I think we started looking for a way to hit the reset button. By golly we got the chance and we didn't strike out looking either. We watched election night like it was the Super Bowl or World Series. A lot of us were prepared to go down swinging with a case of beer or a fifth of bourbon. As it became clear what was happening, we began to cheer. We would have shot our rifles into the air if it wouldn't have alarmed our neighbors. Well, actually some of us did anyway. And on Inaugeration Day.....there will be joy in Mudville.

It may all turn out to be just wet powder in the pan. Oh well. It won't be the first time we've been lied to or disappointed. And that's how things like this just happen. Like I said, it is good to expose yourself to diverse thinking, otherwise you miss an entire movement.

I thought it it was funny how Bob Dylan got the Nobel Prize. Ask Bob about it and likely he would tell you he thinks the whole thing is a joke. I think the guy was a damn genius but then I thought Boston was a great band. But old Bob Dylan knew the reason for this historic election's outcome. I kinda get it myself.

There's an evenin' haze settlin' over town
Starlight by the edge of the creek
The buyin' power of the proletariat's gone down
Money's gettin' shallow and weak
Well, the place I love best is a sweet memory
It's a new path that we trod
They say low wages are a reality
If we want to compete abroad

My cruel weapons have been put on the shelf
Come sit down on my knee
You are dearer to me than myself
As you yourself can see
While I'm listening to the steel rails hum
Got both eyes tight shut
Just sitting here trying to keep the hunger from
Creeping its way into my gut

Meet me at the bottom, don't lag behind
Bring me my boots and shoes
You can hang back or fight your best on the frontline
Sing a little bit of these workingman's blues

Well, I'm sailin' on back, ready for the long haul
Tossed by the winds and the seas
I'll drag 'em all down to hell and I'll stand 'em at the wall
I'll sell 'em to their enemies
I'm tryin' to feed my soul with thought
Gonna sleep off the rest of the day
Sometimes no one wants what we got
Sometimes you can't give it away

Now the place is ringed with countless foes
Some of them may be deaf and dumb
No man, no woman knows
The hour that sorrow will come
In the dark I hear the night birds call
I can feel a lover's breath
I sleep in the kitchen with my feet in the hall
Sleep is like a temporary death

Meet me at the bottom, don't lag behind
Bring me my boots and shoes
You can hang back or fight your best on the frontline
Sing a little bit of these workingman's blues

Well, they burned my barn, and they stole my horse
I can't save a dime
I got to be careful, I don't want to be forced
Into a life of continual crime
I can see for myself that the sun is sinking
How I wish you were here to see
Tell me now, am I wrong in thinking
That you have forgotten me?

Now they worry and they hurry and they fuss and they fret
They waste your nights and days
Them I will forget
But you I'll remember always
Old memories of you to me have clung
You've wounded me with your words
Gonna have to straighten out your tongue
It's all true, everything you've heard

Meet me at the bottom, don't lag behind
Bring me my boots and shoes
You can hang back or fight your best on the frontline
Sing a little bit of these workingman's blues

In you, my friend, I find no blame
Wanna look in my eyes, please do
No one can ever claim
That I took up arms against you
All across the peaceful sacred fields
They will lay you low
They'll break your horns and slash you with steel
I say it so it must be so

Now I'm down on my luck and I'm black and blue
Gonna give you another chance
I'm all alone and I'm expecting you
To lead me off in a cheerful dance
I got a brand new suit and a brand new wife
I can live on rice and beans
Some people never worked a day in their life
Don't know what work even means

Well, meet me at the bottom, don't lag behind
Bring me my boots and shoes
You can hang back or fight your best on the frontline
Sing a little bit of these workingman's blues


https://youtu.be/YPPbQexwTR4

[rosarugosa]

Well said, William. Most of us never wanted you to leave in the first place, so you need not apologize for posting. In fact, it would be nice to hear from you more often. :)

[LDAHL]

The flag always flew at school, nobody stepped foot on the grass, and the Principle wielded a thick paddle with holes in it. I got it a couple times and deserved it.


In my elementary school career I had occasion for admonishment by paddles both with and without holes. I always wondered why the "holy paddles" seemed to hurt more. Was it an urban legend psychological thing, or is there some solid physics behind the holes enhancing the experience? Flexible versus inflexible instruments of discipline also seemed more effective in the yardstick category.

[Tammy]

Either way it's abuse

[LDAHL]

Either way it's abuse

It was a different time. My parents certainly had no problem with it, and would have laughed at the suggestion of involving lawyers or shrinks.

It certainly taught me lessons in risk management and tactical cunning that I can use to this day.

I'm not sure the current practice of drugging kids into manageability produces superior results.

[Zoe Girl]

It was a different time. My parents certainly had no problem with it, and would have laughed at the suggestion of involving lawyers or shrinks.


My parents fired more than one babysitter who tried or used physical punishment on us, and would have certainly had an issue with a school doing this even 45 years ago. Many of the kids who this was used on had learning disabilities or other issues that could have been handled another way, we aren't perfect now but it is a big improvement.

[LDAHL]

My parents fired more than one babysitter who tried or used physical punishment on us, and would have certainly had an issue with a school doing this even 45 years ago. Many of the kids who this was used on had learning disabilities or other issues that could have been handled another way, we aren't perfect now but it is a big improvement.

That's probably true, but I think that for myself I'd prefer the occasional whack to having my brain chemistry altered.

[JaneV2.0]

That's probably true, but I think that for myself I'd prefer the occasional whack to having my brain chemistry altered.

I would too, given those two options. I'm glad most school districts have stopped beating their students; I fear they'll just step up the drugs. Pharma must have its profits.

Paddles with holes have less resistance to air, I think, which makes them more efficient at delivering pain.

[Tammy]

Paddling versus drugging is not the point. There are a myriad of ways to manage children that involve neither one.

[bae]

Paddles with holes have less resistance to air, I think, which makes them more efficient at delivering pain.

The air resistance difference, while real, is a minor factor.

The holes provide more boundaries between the hit/not-hit surfaces of the target area, and the contrast is the primary contributor to the additional sensory input provided by paddles/tawses/straps with holes.

Which is fine, if all parties are consenting, but abuse otherwise.

[Gregg]

I intended to continue reading as a guest because I believe that exposing oneself to ideas that are contrary to ones own keep a person from migrating to places where everyone thinks like you. Soon your mind contracts and all you are willing to do is participate in echo chambers where the same ideology is repeated until you become a drone on auto pilot...


I enjoyed reading your post Williamsmith. It seems we grew up in the same place at the same time, just maybe in different states.

[early morning]

I too appreciate your post, Williamsmith. And I grew up a lot like you, only more rural, I think. The fiftys and sixtys were a good time to be a white, working-class kid. But here's where we diverge just a bit:

And for awhile, it seemed like we all accepted it. We were too busy raising kids and making our way in the new paradigm. I don't know exactly when but we started getting the feeling like we were being taken advantage of. People laughed at us behind our backs as if they knew something we didn't. Then they laughed in our faces as if we couldn't do anything about it. Pretty soon it felt like we were getting dust kicked in our faces like we didn't belong anymore.

I never got this feeling. I never felt taken advantage of as we grew older and brought up our families. I never felt laughed at, or that I had dust kicked in my face. I felt I was part of something great, something important - extending our wonderful country's privileges and our upbringing and our ideals to people who had not been invited in, in the past. That I was part of an awakening, one that saw ALL citizens in the US as important, and worthy of all the same rights and privileges and opportunities that we had. And this, perhaps, is why I, and maybe others like me, did not - do not- understand Trump's appeal at all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter - other perspectives are indeed very valuable. You have made at least part of the opposition make more sense today, and I appreciate that.

[LDAHL]

One good thing coming out of all this is that those who think of themselves as elites will be less able to ignore or deplore the area between the Appalachians and the Rockies.

Another will be the newfound appreciation for constitutional checks and balances and the role of the states in a federal system.