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Ultralight
11-15-16, 9:07am
I am wondering about this term "Islamophobia."

Can one be critical of Islam as a set of ideas but not be prejudice against Muslims and/or Arabs?

creaker
11-15-16, 9:38am
I'm critical of most religions - but I prefer to judge by an individual's actions. Not all Christians attend the Westboro Baptist Church.

I've known people from the middle east that were not Muslims (Baha'i). But I expect many people's prejudices wouldn't care about that distinction.

LDAHL
11-15-16, 10:20am
I am wondering about this term "Islamophobia."

Can one be critical of Islam as a set of ideas but not be prejudice against Muslims and/or Arabs?

I think so. You can be critical of portions of any body of thought without hating the people who think that way.

Sadly, we are at a point where any hint of criticism is seen as a litmus test for bigotry.

ApatheticNoMore
11-15-16, 12:53pm
Well maybe as long as one acknowledges the role such beliefs play in the actual society you are living in. The U.S. is a country at war in 7 countries, many of them Islamic, anti-Islam sentiment sure is mighty useful for that (it is of course not the cause, it's useful is all). Would any of us even care that much about what Muslims believe if not for colonial wars and their results (refugees etc.)?

bae
11-15-16, 1:08pm
I think the "phobia" part of the label "Islamophobia" loads the question/discussion, and serves as a thought-terminating cliche.

I also think "Islam == Arab" is foolishness too many people fall into. There are ~1.7 billion Muslims on Earth. 1/4 of the planet is Muslim.

ApatheticNoMore
11-15-16, 1:28pm
I think a lot of people come at it as well as being geopolitically useful (not usually something noted on actually), as what room does any other culture have to criticize? Better in some ways, worse in others (these may well be inseparable, and one can't not be of a culture).

LDAHL
11-15-16, 2:21pm
It's interesting how much baggage can be attached to a term like "islamophobia". It triggers all sort of tu quoque responses: What about the Crusades or the Sykes-Picot treaty or the Six Day War? As if you can't talk about Sharia Law without putting it in the context of the Justinian Code. Then there's the insistence going for a more general condemnation of religion in general. And of course the reflexive assumption that anyone less than positive about Islam must be anti-Muslim. If someone were to say "I think the Catholic Church has really got it wrong about contraception" would that immediately label them as a bigot?

ToomuchStuff
11-15-16, 2:54pm
I think the "phobia" part of the label "Islamophobia" loads the question/discussion, and serves as a thought-terminating cliche.


Same as ism, it seems. All about control and if you don't agree, your wrong, right or wrong.

Ultralight
11-15-16, 5:10pm
A classmate used the term Islamophobia in a conversation before class. I mentioned I had just read the Quran and wondered if he thought that one could criticize Islam as a set of ideas but not discriminate against Arabs or Muslims.

When I mentioned I had just read the Quran he gave me this look like he thought is was a bad idea for me to have read it.

He said that only a person who comes from an Islamic community can criticize Islam, otherwise it is oppression of the minority by the majority.

I said, "What about the school of thought that ideas are for everyone to hold, think about, criticize, etc.?"

He returned to his earlier rationale.

LDAHL
11-15-16, 5:16pm
A classmate used the term Islamophobia in a conversation before class. I mentioned I had just read the Quran and wondered if he thought that one could criticize Islam as a set of ideas but not discriminate against Arabs or Muslims.

When I mentioned I had just read the Quran he gave me this look like he thought is was a bad idea for me to have read it.

He said that only a person who comes from an Islamic community can criticize Islam, otherwise it is oppression of the minority by the majority.

I said, "What about the school of thought that ideas are for everyone to hold, think about, criticize, etc.?"

He returned to his earlier rationale.

So a non-believer reading and discussing a religious text is unacceptable cultural appropriation?

No wonder you're having second thoughts about that program.

Ultralight
11-15-16, 5:21pm
So a non-believer reading and discussing a religious text is unacceptable cultural appropriation?

Well, that and oppression.

LDAHL
11-15-16, 5:24pm
Well, that and oppression.

Would he be unequally uncomfortable with you reading and commenting on the Book of Mormon?

Ultralight
11-15-16, 5:26pm
Would he be unequally uncomfortable with you reading and commenting on the Book of Mormon?I asked him something along those lines, and he said "This is a Christian nation so Muslims are the minority."

bae
11-15-16, 5:51pm
He said that only a person who comes from an Islamic community can criticize Islam, otherwise it is oppression of the minority by the majority.



لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

Just say that first.

Ultralight
11-15-16, 9:40pm
لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

Just say that first.
lol.

creaker
11-15-16, 10:17pm
لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

Just say that first.

I've never tried googling Arabic before - it works.

LDAHL
11-16-16, 11:56am
Well, that and oppression.

If it is presumptuous to the point of oppression to speak critically of any aspect of another culture, isn't it equally so to speak in that culture's defense?

jp1
11-16-16, 5:47pm
I asked him something along those lines, and he said "This is a Christian nation so Muslims are the minority."

So,does that mean that I can criticize christianity even though I'm an atheist? Or am I not allowed to criticize any religion because I'm an atheist?

JaneV2.0
11-16-16, 5:58pm
I thought that, as non-believers, we got to criticize everybody. That's one of the perks.

creaker
11-17-16, 12:13am
I thought that, as non-believers, we got to criticize everybody. That's one of the perks.

You need to make the jump from atheism to antitheism.