Good article about The Great Paradox of Trump voters

[catherine]

This could have also been in the Environment forum: Great article about why Trump voters voted Trump, and it addresses the paradox of why they don't care about government EPA regulations, even if those regulations protect them.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/07/how-great-paradox-american-politics-holds-secret-trumps-success

[freshstart]

I get how they feel but I'll never completely understand people who vote against their own self interests

[catherine]

I get how they feel but I'll never completely understand people who vote against their own self interests

In market research we have a couple of terms/images to explain that.. One would be the benefit ladder (http://i0.wp.com/beloved-brands.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Positioning-2016.033.jpeg). In the benefit ladder, the emotions always trump the rational mind. So you have to get to the top of the benefit ladder to see what is truly motivating people.

So, where the Trump voters in this article are concerned, there are clearly higher order end benefits that have Trumped their rational concerns. I would have to dig deeper and talk to the people to get to the bottom of it, but you might expect that maybe one benefit of voting for Trump might be a return to self-determination. A return to past values/nostalgia for the "good old days" when the American dream worked for them.

Why does this work AGAINST environmental policies that would benefit them in the long run? I think they are dealing with short-term survival at this point. Enforcing the Clean Air Act is pretty abstract compared with the immediate concerns for just getting enough to eat. Passing the baton to the government is an admission of reliance on the government, and they don't want to be reliant on any outside entity--they've felt betrayed by existing institutions that have promised and haven't delivered.

The guy in the article who became an environmentalist felt empowered in his community by being the whistle-blower on why the local fishermen had to restrict their fishing. He didn't need the Clean Water Act to effect change in his community. And yet, he was grateful to the company for the $5000 he got in a retirement fund.

One of the most impactful points I ever read (and I wish I could remember the book, or even the author) was this point the author made: A child whose arm is on fire will cry out for his/her mother, even if it was that mother who set the child's arm on fire.

At this point, I think people in the red states have a symbiotic relationship with industry that they see as the answer to the biggest concerns they have, which is self-determination and the ability to meet their basic needs. Also, Trump appeals to their desire for the perceived security of the past, based on their experience of progress among their tribe.

[Zoe Girl]

a very good article, I have been struggling with this for some time. I have a friend, used to be someone I spent time with, but I keep her on my FB feed even though there is profound disagreement. Years ago I watched this disconnect, she was strongly supportive of the police and identified more with their point of view than others. She also has some relatives who are black. However she was married to a police officer, he beat her, the counselors knew it and his supervisors, he still has his job, he still messes with her life (she has a severely autistic son who will need care for life so no aging out of the co-parenting). She also refused any government help, food assistance, anything, while undergoing costly cancer treatments until she truly couldn't do it anymore and took some help with food. She is okay with family help, her frail mother will care for her large son who has fits even though she agrees it is physically unsafe. Yet she will turn down state help that is designed just for her and continue to put her mom in danger. When we were still talking I tried to talk to her about how Republicans have actually voted for many of these services, but that didn't seem to matter. I have not made sense of this, it is deeply painful to watch. So I see it, however I can't really get my head around it.

[Zoe Girl]

One of the most impactful points I ever read (and I wish I could remember the book, or even the author) was this point the author made: A child whose arm is on fire will cry out for his/her mother, even if it was that mother who set the child's arm on fire.

At this point, I think people in the red states have a symbiotic relationship with industry that they see as the answer to the biggest concerns they have, which is self-determination and the ability to meet their basic needs. Also, Trump appeals to their desire for the perceived security of the past, based on their experience of progress among their tribe.

One thing that stood out to me is how the people 'up' the ladder are the company owners doing the polluting. If you are looking where you will dream to go and the government will negatively affect them then that is a big factor. I look very different places, my 'up' is in areas that work with the government in many ways, like if I wanted to be a professor or head up a non-profit, etc.

[CathyA]

I have to agree with the perception that a liberal government (at least recently) tries to be "fair" and tries to give everyone a chance......every human out there, be they of different color, different race, different religion, etc. But to the many who have been here longer, worked harder, it's unfair. People simplify things in their heads.......and sometimes in all gets lumped together. I think the interviewee in the article (and many others) have lost faith in the government's choices, and is saying NO to everything.

Here I go with my pessimism again, but this experiment is failing. (The melting pot experiment). And it's made much worse by the extreme capitalism that the U.S. has pushed hard.
Just think about what most Americans are told they "need" to be truly happy. There's no way anyone but the wealthy can afford all the crap we're supposed to buy into.

We have a population problem. We have an education problem. We have lots of problems that never get addressed, many times because the solutions needed aren't kind/fair/American.
I don't know what the answer is. The horse has left the barn.......actually, the planet. How do we fix all the problems in today's world in the U.S.? How do we convince people that if we just lived more simply, we may be happier? How do we convince people not to think they need to buy/have so much crap out there? Why, that's UnAmerican! How can we get ahead of poverty when we reward people for not working......or bring in immigrants to do the job? How can we employ people in jobs that require skill and intelligence, when we can't even get many through high school? Correcting some of these problems would be like trying to untie a huge knot with many threads involved.

Maybe we should go back to not being global. Maybe we should toughen up and realize that we can't take care of people outside our own families, until we've properly taken care of our own?
I feel like the U.S. has become a free-for-all. I know people on the right want less government involvement, but I don't think the masses can necessarily make good choices.........but if/when you have a government that seems to make bad choices (republican AND democratic), it starts looking like a good idea to have less of it.

Like I said, we need to toughen up and stop thinking it's everything for everyone. Again, I'm rambling. I'm overwhelmed with where we are today. I see both sides to everything, but I don't think this country can continue on the path it's taken, but makes me distraught to think there's no way out.

Many of our ways here in the U.S. have led us to exactly this point. I'm sure this isn't what the founding father's had in mind......but we're still trying to interpret our choices/rights based on the constitution and the Bill of Rights. We need some updates.
But then again.......everybody has an opinion on updates, and we'd fight forever on that too.

[Zoe Girl]

The compromise zone does seem to be gone Cathy. There are things I simply can't see how to work out at times. Fights that are long over but we just keep beating on them. I did have some hope that younger generations would affect things by being raised in more racially diverse communities and families, but I have truly no idea at this point how that is going. I honestly think we are much worse right now.

I do go back to my Buddhism, and feel even more that I need to bring that into what I am talking about on a regular basis. We have all had our ideas of how things should be disrupted. I am sure Trump supporters didn't want to see mass protests, and many probably didn't want the outbreak of violence towards people of color and other at-risk people. I had my ideas, and I am using my practice to face what is REALLY happening and not what should be in my mind. The one person who I actually dropped on facebook was still talking about vision boards and creating what we want from our own consciousness. Um yeah, way to check out of reality instead of getting clear about reality.

[LDAHL]

I get how they feel but I'll never completely understand people who vote against their own self interests

Aren't you presuming you have a superior understanding of what those interests are?

[iris lilies]

Aren't you presuming you have a superior understanding of what those interests are?
Exactly.

[ApatheticNoMore]

About as much superior understanding as assuming the heroine addicts next hit is NOT actually in their self-interest. Afterall they sure think it is.

I mean suicide is one's right, but generally getting sick and dying of environmental toxins is not in the self-interest of people who choose to live.

[LDAHL]

About as much superior understanding as assuming the heroine addicts next hit is NOT actually in their self-interest. Afterall they sure think it is.

I mean suicide is one's right, but generally getting sick and dying of environmental toxins is not in the self-interest of people who choose to live.

But when their self-anointed betters in effect tell them "You are dispensable, but the planet is not" and they react negatively, is that acting against their self-interest?

When they're advised that they can get all kinds of lovely free stuff in exchange for a few minor liberties, and they fail to trust those gaudy promises, is that acting against their self interest?

When the elites lecture them about clinging to their guns or their religion, and they decline submission to the latest version of "hope and change", are they acting against their self-interest?

[JaneV2.0]

That was a disturbing article. I see how resentful working-class white men might not grasp that it's not the historically oppressed woman and minorities that are taking jobs away and channeling all their tax dollars into wars and fat-cat subsidies, and so lash out--I guess. The government has long been in collusion with the corporatists and will continue to be, probably. But I don't see how the "mechanical genius" profiled in the article could work for two days at such a dangerous job and not think to himself "I can do better than this." I believe such of ingrained fatalism is part of the problem, and may be why gun ownership and church memberships are so important to these men--you get your agency where you can.

[ApatheticNoMore]

But I don't see how the "mechanical genius" profiled in the article could work for two days at such a dangerous job and not think to himself "I can do better than this." I believe such of ingrained fatalism is part of the problem, and may be why gun ownership and church memberships are so important to these men--you get your agency where you can.

maybe he can't do better than that, maybe he has tried to find better jobs and not succeeded.

[JaneV2.0]

Mechanical geniuses are in demand pretty much everywhere, aren't they? He seemed to have thrived in Seattle--certainly he could have gone back there.