New Swiss laws...

[Ultralight]

Apparently the Swiss have passed a couple new laws:
1. Muslim girls in school have to take swim classes with the other students, including boys.
2. Muslim boys in school have to shake hands with their teachers, both male and female. It is apparently an important part of Swiss culture for students to shake the hands of their teachers.

Thoughts?

I think this is a step in the right direction, for the most part.

[LDAHL]

Unless there's some health or safety reason involved, I'm not terribly comfortable with government enforcing majority cultural norms. Nor am I terribly anxious that government should bend over backward in accommodating minority cultural practices.

[creaker]

So how far can it go?

Maybe we should passing a slew of laws, for example, to get those Amish people to stop living the way they do and integrate with the rest of US society?

[Chicken lady]

I can see a vested state interest in having citizens who know how to swim. Maybe because I grew up in a county that instituted a sixth grade swim lesson reirement in response to drownings of local people who made their living on the water and couldn't swim.

however, I would argue that the parents should be allowed to provide their child with comparable swimming instruction funded by the family or their religious institution. Otoh, the state did specifically permit religiously appropriate clothing and respond to the fact that the official position of the religion the parents adhere to is that the prepubescent status of the girls allows them to submit to the requirement without breaking religious law. The parents' personal preference for a more conservative lifestyle is simply that - a preference. Which they need to weigh against their preference to live in Switzerland.

i'm also uncomfortable with laws requiring physical contact between people, period. And I am curious about wether or not the boys would be permitted to wear gloves and if that would be an adequate accommodation for their religious proscription.

[Alan]

I rather like the attitude of the Swiss. They just denied a passport to someone for being annoying. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-deny-passport-dutch-vegan-anti-cowbell-nancy-holten-animal-rights-annoying-a7520991.html

[Tybee]

I rather like the attitude of the Swiss. They just denied a passport to someone for being annoying. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-deny-passport-dutch-vegan-anti-cowbell-nancy-holten-animal-rights-annoying-a7520991.html

Wow, what an interesting story. I was struck by the size of that cowbell in the picture--seriously, it was a Christopher Walken moment.

[jp1]

I rather like the attitude of the Swiss. They just denied a passport to someone for being annoying. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-deny-passport-dutch-vegan-anti-cowbell-nancy-holten-animal-rights-annoying-a7520991.html

Good thing Donald trump isn't trying to get a Swiss passport.

[iris lilies]

DH is actively, at this moment, workng to get his Swiss passport.

[iris lilies]

Wow, what an interesting story. I was struck by the size of that cowbell in the picture--seriously, it was a Christopher Walken moment.
Oh also, I have cowbells like you wouldnt believe stuf in random places around our house. Seems like everytime DH or hs family went ro Switzerland, cowbells showed up here. That, and clocks, and linens.

[JaneV2.0]

I love that cow bell story. Love it. When I'm queen, annoying people will not be allowed!

[JaneV2.0]

Good thing Donald trump isn't trying to get a Swiss passport.

Oh, he's gone way past annoying. He pegged the annoying meter long ago.

[Lainey]

I think having Muslim boys shake the hands of both male and female teachers is a small thing. The rigid separation of the sexes in that culture, enforced from a young age, is what I think has contributed to the continuous oppression of women there.
Having them perform this small gesture is showing them that in Swiss society, where they now live, men and women are equal.

[creaker]

I think having Muslim boys shake the hands of both male and female teachers is a small thing. The rigid separation of the sexes in that culture, enforced from a young age, is what I think has contributed to the continuous oppression of women there.
Having them perform this small gesture is showing them that in Swiss society, where they now live, men and women are equal.

I wonder what percentage of Muslims this actually affects in Switzerland? Just like any other religion people say they are part of, there's a wide variation of what people do/don't do. Sizable number of Christians in this country would not have their kids go to a school, period.

[sweetana3]

Yep. In ANY religion, it is a U-shaped curve. There are Reformed and Ultraconservative and everyone in between. In addition, add tribal or cultural norms that have nothing to do with the religion at all.

[LDAHL]

Is it a "small thing" to force people to do something they don't want to for no better reason than to police greater conformity to some norm the social engineers have deemed desirable? Should governments regulate articles of clothing or styles of grooming to impose a template of what a citizen should be?

[iris lilies]

I think having Muslim boys shake the hands of both male and female teachers is a small thing. The rigid separation of the sexes in that culture, enforced from a young age, is what I think has contributed to the continuous oppression of women there.
Having them perform this small gesture is showing them that in Swiss society, where they now live, men and women are equal.
You are punishing their thoughts with your philosophy. Thought police. That is a serious, serious, thing. Orthodox Jewish women don't shake the hands with men. Would you require that same attitude-adjustment of them in Swiss society?

Forcing children to shake hands if their parents teach them not to do that seems silly to me. I think we as a society should save the "forcing against their will" for the very few things that have been demonstrated as necessary for public safety.

[JaneV2.0]

Frankly, I'd be happy to see the end of religions in general, but that aside...what's next, forced hugging? (Shudder) I agree with Iris Lily's last paragraph, completely.

[nswef]

Forcing people to touch....bad! Bowing, showing respect with a smile and an introduction...no need at all for forced physical contact.

[catherine]

I also think it's strange to force a handshake. How is that enforced? If I extend my hand to a Muslim boy and he doesn't accept the gesture, do I call the police? Would I call the police? Certainly not.

In terms of co-ed swimming, I also side with the Muslims. They should be free to decide for themselves the conditions in which they prefer to swim. If it's a swim class in school, they should be permitted to opt out if it's against their religion.

It's hard to encourage enculturation--definitely grey areas exist. Do we make Spanish-speaking immigrants speak English? Do we make everyone eat hot dogs and hamburgers to prove they're American? I understand that the more we can all feel we're part of the same tribe the better off we all are, but I don't think these kinds of laws are going to help do that.

[bae]

Forcing people to touch....bad! Bowing, showing respect with a smile and an introduction...no need at all for forced physical contact.

I have some serious concerns about forcing people to do physical things that are outside their negotiated boundaries of consent and be denied agency over their own bodies. *Especially* when the people are children. The whole concept makes me wince.

[creaker]

You are punishing their thoughts with your philosophy. Thought police. That is a serious, serious, thing. Orthodox Jewish women don't shake the hands with men. Would you require that same attitude-adjustment of them in Swiss society?

Forcing children to shake hands if their parents teach them not to do that seems silly to me. I think we as a society should save the "forcing against their will" for the very few things that have been demonstrated as necessary for public safety.

+1

[Tybee]

I have some serious concerns about forcing people to do physical things that are outside their negotiated boundaries of consent and be denied agency over their own bodies. *Especially* when the people are children. The whole concept makes me wince.

+ 100

[Lainey]

I am thinking of the acculturation that is expected of Americans and Europeans when they live in a majority Muslim country. Was watching a news show on TV a number of years ago where a female American soldier complained how she was required to cover herself with a hijab every time she left the base, even when she was just inside a vehicle. Of course male soldiers had no such requirement. She fought that regulation but I don't know how it ended up.

So if the accommodation was reciprocal in all cultures, meaning a non-Muslim woman can walk down the street in a majority Muslim country without a head covering and her hair flowing and that would be okay, then we wouldn't have this discussion. But we are taught to "respect" that culture and accommodate ourselves to it even as temporary visitors and not to mention actually living there. I doubt any such person who did not respect those cultural ways would find themselves welcome to stay there.

And my earlier comment was more aimed at the idea that a Muslim boy can shake the hands of a male teacher, but not a female teacher. This is where he is being taught this strict gender separation. Teachers are human beings first. They are not being asked to hug, or kiss twice on the cheeks, the opposite gender teacher. It is a simple handshake.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think there's bound to be a lot of misinterpretation interpreting Swiss culture through American norms as well, I mean they may be a lot more into the handshaking than in the U.S.etc..

[Chicken lady]

It is unwanted physical contact from an adult.

i am entirely with Bae on this one!

lainey, try looking at it through this lense: "keep your laws off my body."

[Ultralight]

Hypothetical:

Swiss Muslim boy has acute appendicitus and needs emergency medical attention. Only doctor around is a lady. The kid and the parents don't want the female doctor and the kid to have contact that is required for examination and treatment.

Then what?

Okay... let all the rationalizations for "emergencies" roll in. Go!

[iris lilies]

Hypothetical:

Swiss Muslim boy has acute appendicitus and needs emergency medical attention. Only doctor around is a lady. The kid and the parents don't want the female doctor and the kid to have contact that is required for examination and treatment.

Then what?

Okay... let all the rationalizations for "emergencies" roll in. Go!

well, what are the options in the U.S. for this kind of thing? Probably thse options would work for me.

[Ultralight]

well, what are the options in the U.S. for this kind of thing? Probably thse options would work for me.

U.S. Cultural imperialism much? ;)

[Chicken lady]

Generally children are not allowed to die for their religious beliefs, adults are. The theory being that children are not mature enough to make that decision. So social services usually steps in and authorizes treatment.

[Ultralight]

Generally children are not allowed to die for their religious beliefs, adults are.

Generally yes, in cultures you see as acceptable.

[bae]

Hypothetical:

Swiss Muslim boy has acute appendicitus and needs emergency medical attention. Only doctor around is a lady. The kid and the parents don't want the female doctor and the kid to have contact that is required for examination and treatment.

Then what?


Then you'd have to hope the Moslem parents were aware of the rules of their own religion, which allow such contact when necessary. Perhaps the parents don't have such a cartoon image of Islam as outsiders....

[Chicken lady]

No, I meant, "generally". It was an observation of what happens in the majority of cultures - "social services" taking the shape of a variety of entities. Not my personal preference.

i am not including cultural situations in which there would be no issue because the victim's beliefs would be those of the dominant culture and therefor no one would be attempting to act counter to them.

[Lainey]

I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the Qur'an which would prohibit a child from displaying respect for a teacher with a handshake. It is the fundamentalist cultural and societal practices that are enforcing that.
Would it be agreeable if the child's parents said, I don't want my child shaking hands with an African-American? Because in the blue-collar neighborhood where I grew up there were plenty of parents who would want to enforce that, and try to quote bible verses to "prove" it.

Where does it end? Should there be separate school buses because a Muslim parent doesn't want their son to have to sit next to a girl and potentially touch knees? Or can a Muslim parent insist that their son not have a female lab partner in science class because their hands could possibly touch when exchanging a lab beaker?

What is practiced in private homes is one thing, but the public sphere is different.

[LDAHL]

Hypothetical:

Swiss Muslim boy has acute appendicitus and needs emergency medical attention. Only doctor around is a lady. The kid and the parents don't want the female doctor and the kid to have contact that is required for examination and treatment.

Then what?

Okay... let all the rationalizations for "emergencies" roll in. Go!

Is proportionality a rationalization? It seems to me that what is impermissible in the classroom might be necessary in the emergency room. I suspect that if it became possible to sue an EMT for saving lives without permission, the supply of EMTs would decline. Using force to assert cultural dominance seems to me different enough from forcefully preserving life that we can make a reasonable distinction.

That's not to say that there isn't plenty of gray area where we can reasonably argue about when state power should be used to enforce norms. Abortion rights, gun rights or the the question of whether the rights of same-sex couples to marry outweighs the right of bakers to refuse to bake a wedding cake comes to mind.

Are some cultures or societies better than others? I think so, although I doubt we will ever reach unanimity on the proper measure of "better". There are many indexes out there purporting to rank (generally for tendentious reasons) societies by how prosperous, free or happy they are. I think that's generally nonsense, and that the best ultimate criteria of success is survival. I also think the best arena for competition between cultures is how attractive others find that culture and adapt it's features.

[Chicken lady]

I think a person has the rights refuse to touch or be touched by anyone. for any reason.

i also think that actions have consequences, so before you ask me if an emt should have the right to refuse to touch someone because of race, religion, gender, etc - absolutely. And they should also be replaced by someone who is able to actually do the job - asap.

when I was in college, I tried to get a barbershop to cut my hair. They cut my friend Randy's hair, and he had the same haircut - shoulder length blunt cut. The barber said no. "We do not cut women's hair." I said, but I just want (reference Randy) and he said "we don't cut women's hair." And I left and found a girl in my dorm who cut my hair for free. I did not sue the barbershop. Because I do not see any way in which that guy was harming anyone but himself - and if he had so many customers he didn't want any more, he wasn't hurting anybody. If the whole town had no one who would cut women's hair, that's a business opportunity, not a problem. Now, if the town starts formally or informally obstructing the ability of people to cut women's hair, THAT is a problem.

[Tybee]

I think, too, that if one were looking for a new home, then one would be wise to select a new location that welcomed one's culture and provided the freedom to worship and live as one chose, or else to select a new home that fit one's requirements, culturally speaking.

Thus is going to high school and college was important to me, culturally, then I would not go to live among the Amish.

If I felt strongly that my child should not shake hands with a teacher of the opposite sex, then I would not go to live in Switzerland, apparently.

Much like if I disliked military culture, I would not chose to go live on Parris Island.

Of course, I'd have to get a pass to even visit Parris Island, so living there is out for me at this time.

[LDAHL]

I think a person has the rights refuse to touch or be touched by anyone. for any reason.



I don't think it's reasonable to impose an inflexible prescriptive rule in that regard. If the person in question represents a threat to themselves or others, I have no problem with them being touched, sometimes even lethally.

In general, however, I think we should err on the side of individual rights over the collective interest.

[Chicken lady]

Fair enough LDAHL. Because, actions have consequences.

my dad used to tell me that "my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins. and the entire history of social legislation has been an attempt to define the words in that sentence."

[creaker]

They are not being asked to hug, or kiss twice on the cheeks, the opposite gender teacher. It is a simple handshake.

So what if they were? If this was a cultural norm, why shouldn't that be enforced? You may regard a handshake as "simple", and hugs and kisses as not - but other people may have other views, in either direction. How do we differentiate between "this is how things should be" and "this is how I think things should be"?

[Ultralight]

I am not a cultural relativist. I happen to think that some cultures are better than others.

Switzerland's culture vs. Saudi Arabian culture?

The Swiss culture wins.

Any dissenters?

[ToomuchStuff]

Thoughts?


Yes.


Responded in UA style.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I am not a cultural relativist. I happen to think that some cultures are better than others.

Switzerland's culture vs. Saudi Arabian culture?

The Swiss culture wins.

Any dissenters?

not really I mean I think Swiss culture versus American culture and think "oh yea the failed society that is the U.S. is judging ..." >8). I really do kind of.

But mostly I think when we have opinions on this we judge it through a very American filter and American culture is not a culture that does a lot of touching (nor are some Muslims with other sexes I guess!), now the Swiss aren't the first I'd think of for a culture that does, but by saying noone should be touched if they don't want to, I'm not sure would fly at all in many more touch oriented cultures (no I don't support child abuse and rape :~), I'm talking about social touch). It's like the U.S. is a very modest about the body culture, oh despite porn stars and Hollywood, it still is really, so we would have no trouble with someone covering up with a burkini (and really I don't, trust me if I saw it I would take no offense) for religious or modesty or any reason really, but the French otoh ...

[Miss Cellane]

I just read an interesting post on these issues, written by an US citizen living in Switzerland.

http://www.evilhrlady.org/2017/01/swiss-saturday-handshakes-swimming-pools-and-annoying-foreigners.html

Briefly, their culture is *very* important to the Swiss. Handshaking at meeting and departure is part of that culture. Preserving their culture is an important guiding factor in making these kinds of decisions.

As for the girls and the swimming lessons, the girls were very young when the parents made the request. Had the girls been post-puberty, the request would have been granted on religious grounds, but because Islam does not demand the separation of the sexes in swimming lessons at younger ages, the request was denied.

I think the writer does a good job of explaining things from the Swiss perspective. Which is clearly not the US perspective.

[creaker]

I am not a cultural relativist. I happen to think that some cultures are better than others.

Switzerland's culture vs. Saudi Arabian culture?

The Swiss culture wins.

Any dissenters?

Do you think that you should be judged as the culture someone else decides you are? Or as an individual judged on your own actions?

[creaker]

I just read an interesting post on these issues, written by an US citizen living in Switzerland.

http://www.evilhrlady.org/2017/01/swiss-saturday-handshakes-swimming-pools-and-annoying-foreigners.html

Briefly, their culture is *very* important to the Swiss. Handshaking at meeting and departure is part of that culture. Preserving their culture is an important guiding factor in making these kinds of decisions.

As for the girls and the swimming lessons, the girls were very young when the parents made the request. Had the girls been post-puberty, the request would have been granted on religious grounds, but because Islam does not demand the separation of the sexes in swimming lessons at younger ages, the request was denied.

I think the writer does a good job of explaining things from the Swiss perspective. Which is clearly not the US perspective.

Thanks for posting this article - it points out a number of things I didn't know.