View Full Version : Trump And The Wall
gimmethesimplelife
1-25-17, 7:16pm
I. Can. Not. Believe. He. Thinks. Mexico. Will. Pay for his wall. Seriously....Mexico is a soveirgn (sp?) nation - does he honestly believe he's going to present Mexico with a multi-billion dollar bill for his wall, and have Mexico run to get the checkbook? Very grandiose of him is the nicest way I can put it, with a liberal helping of deluded thinking. A long four years this is indeed going to be. Rob
Teacher Terry
1-25-17, 7:20pm
I would like to know where he is stealing the $ from to pay for this wall. Probably welfare and food stamps, medicaid, etc.
ApatheticNoMore
1-25-17, 7:27pm
Perhaps, but he doesn't really need to balance the budget or anything, and I'd hardly worry about that.
I. Can. Not. Believe. He. Thinks. Mexico. Will. Pay for his wall. Seriously....Mexico is a soveirgn (sp?) nation - does he honestly believe he's going to present Mexico with a multi-billion dollar bill for his wall, and have Mexico run to get the checkbook?
I think he's been pretty clear that the money will come from fees and/or tariffs. I kinda like the idea of a border crossing fee, sort of how many states pay for their road infrastructure through toll roads.
I'm listening to some talk on this now - $4-6 million per mile - and that's where there is infrastructure to deliver the materials and such, where there isn't they will need to also build roads to bring it there. It's going to be a boondoggle.
I'm curious how the US landowners along the border will be treated.... Many of them have land that runs right up and into the river, and rely on access for their ranching operations.
It's a bonehead idea.
Teacher Terry
1-25-17, 7:39pm
I just looked it up and he will take $ from sanctuary cities and the $ will be what the feds give states for Headstart programs, HIV healthcare, education, etc. Let's take the $ from poor people and kids. Awesome!
Teacher Terry
1-25-17, 7:39pm
Bae, he will probably just seize their land if they complain.
Bae, he will probably just seize their land if they complain.
He can't just seize it. The government does have the power of eminent domain, but that requires "just compensation". Says so right there in the Constitution.
Teacher Terry
1-25-17, 7:56pm
Just compensation might not mean much to this guy.
Just compensation might not mean much to this guy.
So what? He's just the President. He has no power to seize land and not pay for it.
frugal-one
1-25-17, 8:05pm
I. Can. Not. Believe. He. Thinks. Mexico. Will. Pay for his wall. Seriously....Mexico is a soveirgn (sp?) nation - does he honestly believe he's going to present Mexico with a multi-billion dollar bill for his wall, and have Mexico run to get the checkbook? Very grandiose of him is the nicest way I can put it, with a liberal helping of deluded thinking. A long four years this is indeed going to be. Rob
Just heard that the length is 2000 miles. Ridiculous.
So what? He's just the President. He has no power to seize land and not pay for it.
I predict lawsuits to figure out the question of just compensation. And them taking a long time to work their way through the courts. He'll be able to tweet, "would have built the wall years ago but those losers living on the border don't care about America." He gets credit from his supporters for really wanting to build it without ever doing so.
I predict lawsuits to figure out the question of just compensation. And them taking a long time to work their way through the courts.
There's typically a sorta-defined process for eminent domain proceedings, generally requiring paying fair market value and detailing the acceptable methods for value determination. The lawsuits aren't complex proceedings as a result if anyone complains. Counties, towns, states, and various other governmental entities often have the power of eminent domain, and use it for legitimate public purposes. The governmental entity I am an elected representative on has such power - we typically don't use it, we simply approach the land-owner and say "OK, we need this land for Legitimate Purpose XYZ. We have 3 appraisals here in-hand from certified independent appraisers. You are welcome to get another. We propose to pay you this as the market value - indeed, we are prohibited by state law from paying you a dollar less, or a dollar more, so there's no dickering really unless you think the appraisals are out-of-wack. In which case, see above - feel free to get your own appraisals. You won't be compensated for the cost of your own appraisal, and if we go to court, you will lose, and you won't get your court costs back. How do you wish to proceed?" It usually results in a quick deal, and no court time.
As a landowner here, I had the County try to take some of my land to straighten out a road. They wanted about a 40 foot strip, and proposed as above the appraised price. I told them their appraisal was clearly wrong, as the appraiser had missed the fact that several rows of 30 year old producing vines from our vineyard would be lost as a result, and that the road runoff would certainly kill off another few rows, and that the winery's organic certification would be lost from the runoff and the pesticides the county uses along roads, so the correct appraisal would be more like "the value of a 2000 case a year winery and about 15 acres of highly productive land". But that it would be far cheaper to straighten out the road on the *other* side of the road, where no crops were grown and where the runoff wouldn't hit a salmon stream.... They saw reason.
Miss Cellane
1-25-17, 8:25pm
The wall will cost way too much money for way too little in return.
Why not spend the money working out some sort of plan to allow people into the country legally to work? With some money going directly to the areas most hard hit by the people walking over the border, for better border patrols or something that will actually help.
This, on top of everything else, has just left me numb today.
The wall will cost way too much money for way too little in return.
In an era where federal highway bridges are falling into rivers, deciding to build a lame and expensive wall is...idiotic.
Miss Cellane
1-26-17, 9:38am
In an era where federal highway bridges are falling into rivers, deciding to build a lame and expensive wall is...idiotic.
For perhaps the first time ever, bae and I agree on something.
Trump truly is uniting the American people!
I think the immigration problem is so complex.........But I like to think in smaller terms........like if we had a decent house and our children had good education, and enough food, etc., and some in the neighborhood didn't.......But they constantly came to our house (even if it was big), wanting room and board, etc......How would we handle it? Yes, we might be very tempted to build a large fence around the property, with a locked gate.
How else should we handle the immigration problem from the southern border? I know a very liberal belief is that there's always room for more and we love everyone! The far right believes the opposite. How might we possibly find decent middle ground?
How do we stop drug trafficking along the border? How do we deal with all the problems connected with being a rich nation with a border, the south of which is poor?
I have truly come to believe in the pendulum theory about just about every action. We have been sooooo lax and accepting in the past, which has led us to many feeling the need to go far in the other direction.
We seem to be unable to make reasonable choices in this country. For example.......why can't we do what Canada does, in terms of bringing in Hispanics to work the farms, then having them go back home? I suppose it's made easier by the fact that Canada probably has a very defined growing season, whereas places in the U.S. has growing seasons all year round. But dang........can't we make some reasonable choices and have some logical/reasonable foresight when first thinking things through, instead of not thinking things through, and then having huge messes to deal with?
I agree that we can't leave the border unattended, and that we have some laws of acceptance that need to change.
iris lilies
1-26-17, 10:14am
...We seem to be unable to make reasonable choices in this country. For example.......why can't we do what Canada does, in terms of bringing in Hispanics to work the farms, then having them go back home? I suppose it's made easier by the fact that Canada probably has a very defined growing season, whereas places in the U.S. has growing seasons all year round....
Cathy, that IS an immigrant program. Thousands of Mexican people work in the green industry for a season. Their visas are good for the growing season. DH used to work with several men in a tree company where they came to St. Louis from April to October and went back to their home in Mexico for the winter.
ToomuchStuff
1-26-17, 11:40am
Cathy, that IS an immigrant program. Thousands of Mexican people work in the green industry for a season. Their visas are good for the growing season. DH used to work with several men in a tree company where they came to St. Louis from April to October and went back to their home in Mexico for the winter.
Here, there was a historic restaurant, that the family had orchards. They had a large tenement complex for the seasonal immigrants under that program. The owner of that orchard, is a friend of mine who sold the whole thing to a home builder/developer, right before the 2008 crash for a nice chunk.
Besides work visa's we also have legal immigration.>8)
Of course this won't stop tunneled drugs, drugs smuggled via plane or homebuilt submarines, built into vehicles, or people smuggling, etc. It will only slow down border crossings and cause hindrances in other area's (such as seasonal legal immigrants getting through to Canada, the water rights issues, etc). If there was a once size fits all answer, I would have hoped we would have implemented it by now.
So how do we stop all the groups of children/families/others from Mexico and South America from coming in? Once they walk over......then, it requires huge amounts of money/resources/attention, to place them in homes all over the country, where, I'm assuming, they just fade into the background and become "illegals". I don't know what the answer is. But I don't want to find fault (yet) with people who want a wall, or at least many more border guards.....or some system to keep them out, except for trying to come in the right way.
Also.......even though we DO have an illegal immigrant problem, I'm sure there are tons of company owners who sure as hell don't want to lose their low-paid workers. So I guess the first step would be trying to make punishment stronger for people who hide this. (I'm not sure if enough is being done, with the laws in place already).
Make it easier for them to come and go. If you fear that you won't be able to get back into the US to work your seasonal job picking fruit or trimming trees or whatever you end up staying permanently. Then you miss your family so you get them to come to.
ToomuchStuff
1-26-17, 12:05pm
So how do we stop all the groups of children/families/others from Mexico and South America from coming in?
You will never stop them all. I expect if the wall did get built, in a few years, there would be some story, about a catapult on the Mexico side and a mattress filled field on the USA side and a number of broken limbs.
Wouldn't it be simpler to offer some of the Mexican states US statehood?
Teacher Terry
1-26-17, 1:40pm
We can't let everyone in that wants to come but there are quotas for immigration. You are never going to totally stop people from sneaking in. From what little I have seen of Mexico I can see why they keep trying. The idea about letting workers come and go sounds reasonable.
I think it's easy for those of us who don't live near the border, to think it's not a problem worth dealing with. I wonder how the majority of people in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and CA feel about it?
I think it's easy for those of us who don't live near the border, to think it's not a problem worth dealing with. I wonder how the majority of people in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and CA feel about it?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/01/01/completing-border-wall-is-daunting-task-in-texas-were-most-land-is-privately.html
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/23/politics/border-series-texas/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/30/the-great-wall-of-trump-would-be-the-ultimate-eminent-domain-horror-show.html
I live right on the border. I can row a boat to Canada. The border controls imposed here since 9/11 have dramatically cut down trade and socialization with nice Canadian villages I can see with the naked eye, and can get to more easily than the US mainland. Our communities used to engage in lots of casual interactions, these are now nearly impossible.
The region has a huge amount of smuggling - drugs, goods, people.
A couple years ago they decided to put up a barbed wire enclosure on the mainland, where the ferry arrives, and question and search us as we traveled to the mainland for our business. Traveled over waters entirely within the State of Washington, on Washington State ferries, which on that route are an extension of the state highway system.
It didn't go over well.
It looks like the Mexican president has cancelled his visit to the U.S. That seems like an unfortunate elevation of poor relationships just to appease Donald's pet project that something like 75% of Americans are against. Quite the unfolding drama. As a side note I noticed that 1984 is currently the top selling book on Amazon.
I think it's easy for those of us who don't live near the border, to think it's not a problem worth dealing with. I wonder how the majority of people in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and CA feel about it?
I can't speak for all Californians but personally I don't know anyone who is concerned about immigration or the fact that only 40% of our population is white. But since Trump did horribly here, even among white people, I don't get the impression that it's as much of an issue here as it isn't elsewhere. Part of that may be due to the fact that in the more conservative parts of the state, like the Central Valley, a lot of immigrants are used to do the work picking fruits and vegetables.
I have a possible solution to this problem, based on my suggestion to CathyA to use her old encyclopedias to make a garden wall.
If everyone in America and Mexico did this, we could recycle the books and turn it into art. And keep the wall nice and low, with stained glass soda bottle window lights.
Here is a picture of how this technique can look:
https://freedomthistime.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/earth-ship-bottle-wall11.jpg
iris lilies
1-26-17, 3:05pm
I can't speak for all Californians but personally I don't know anyone who is concerned about immigration or the fact that only 40% of our population is white. But since Trump did horribly here, even among white people, I don't get the impression that it's as much of an issue here as it isn't elsewhere. Part of that may be due to the fact that in the more conservative parts of the state, like the Central Valley, a lot of immigrants are used to do the work picking fruits and vegetables.
Dude, I view California economics as a cautionary tale. If illegal immigrants play only a tiny role in that, there would have to be studies that show that clearly and conclusively, for me to cave.
iris lilies
1-26-17, 3:05pm
I have a possible solution to this problem, based on my suggestion to CathyA to use her old encyclopedias to make a garden wall.
If everyone in America and Mexico did this, we could recycle the books and turn it into art. And keep the wall nice and low, with stained glass soda bottle window lights.
Here is a picture of how this technique can look:
https://freedomthistime.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/earth-ship-bottle-wall11.jpg
that is pretty. Encyclopedias arent pretty bottles, though.
Dude, I view California economics as a cautionary tale. If illegal immigrants play only a tiny role in that, there would have to be studies that show that clearly and conclusively, for me to cave.
Yes, I suppose it sucks that we have the sixth largest economy in the world. All snark aside, I suspect that a larger part of our state's budget issues stem from prop 13 than from immigrants.
iris lilies
1-26-17, 3:32pm
Yes, I suppose it sucks that we have the sixth largest economy in the world. All snark aside, I suspect that a larger part of our state's budget issues stem from prop 13 than from immigrants.
You and Greece, babe. We are watching.
iris lilies
1-26-17, 3:36pm
Yes, I suppose it sucks that we have the sixth largest economy in the world. All snark aside, I suspect that a larger part of our state's budget issues stem from prop 13 than from immigrants.
Does Prop 13 go beynd real estate taxes?
I have always wondered why, if Prop 13 is so bad (and I think it is a lot bad for real estate taxes) why it cant be overturned.
http://www.themonitor.com/opinion/board_of_contributors/commentary-trump-s-border-wall-targets-south-texas-landowners-and/article_ffc29478-e35f-11e6-b68f-cf9575e49439.html
I have always wondered why, if Prop 13 is so bad (and I think it is a lot bad for real estate taxes) why it cant be overturned.
Something about "democracy", as I understand it.
Hmmm......Bae, about that article you posted, I had forgotten about the wildlife. Yes, that would be a real bummer. I know I'd like to build a higher fence in portions of our back property, but I didn't want to stop the wildlife from coming through.
Does Prop 13 go beynd real estate taxes?
I have always wondered why, if Prop 13 is so bad (and I think it is a lot bad for real estate taxes) why it cant be overturned.
It can only be changed by either another initiative or a 2/3 vote of both houses of the legislature. It also put strict rules in place for other tax increases, like sales taxes.
The thing that makes me nervous is that at this point, I think it's more important for some Republicans in Congress to vote with Trump, than to vote with their heart. They want to keep the GOP together and in power, and I think they would put that above their conscience.
Media now saying Trump wants 20% tax on Mexican imports to pay for the wall.
If you like avocado, I'd suggest getting your fill now. Isn't this just going to be passed on to US consumers?
Media now saying Trump wants 20% tax on Mexican imports to pay for the wall.
If you like avocado, I'd suggest getting your fill now. Isn't this just going to be passed on to US consumers?
Yup. Econ 101.
iris lilies
1-26-17, 5:06pm
It can only be changed by either another initiative or a 2/3 vote of both houses of the legislature. It also put strict rules in place for other tax increases, like sales taxes.
Ah, so there is no perceived will of the people to change it. Many still comsider it a good-ish thing.
Ah, so there is no perceived will of the people to change it. Many still comsider it a good-ish thing.
Just the deplorables and low-information voters, but they'll come around once re-education is complete.
ApatheticNoMore
1-26-17, 5:38pm
Media now saying Trump wants 20% tax on Mexican imports to pay for the wall.
If you like avocado, I'd suggest getting your fill now. Isn't this just going to be passed on to US consumers?
or maybe you shouldn't:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/9176bc7479e048508203f10a68da6fa7/mexico-high-avocado-prices-fueling-deforestation
or maybe you shouldn't:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/9176bc7479e048508203f10a68da6fa7/mexico-high-avocado-prices-fueling-deforestation
Oh man, that's a bummer. I just recently have been having them for lunch a couple times a week. Guess I'll stop that. Are they grown anywhere in the U.S.?
Ah, so there is no perceived will of the people to change it. Many still comsider it a good-ish thing.
The proposition was An imperfect response to a real problem. Property taxes were being raised beyond any rational level. For example there was an old couple in LA who owned a single family home. Across the street was an apartment building on an identical sized lot. The tax assessor determined that the old couple "could" put up a similar apartment building and therefore raised the taxes to match, making them higher than the couple's entire social security check.
Undoubtedly there could be a better solution but I doubt there will be any serious effort to change it in my lifetime. And our real estate market will continue to be distorted and the state budget subject to gyrations in the economy since it depends more heavily on income tax than other states.
mid-March is California avocado season
Media now saying Trump wants 20% tax on Mexican imports to pay for the wall.
If you like avocado, I'd suggest getting your fill now. Isn't this just going to be passed on to US consumers?
Yup. Econ 101.
Indeed. I wonder if all the "buy American" people realize that if Trump succeeds in bringing manufacturing back from china or wherever by putting significant new tariffs on foreign goods understand this. According to an article I found on kqed's website the average American family spent 10% of their income on clothes in 1960, compared to less than 3.5% today and we buy far more clothes today than we did then. You can thank (or blame) the shift of clothing manufacture to countries with cheap labor.
Media now saying Trump wants 20% tax on Mexican imports to pay for the wall.
If you like avocado, I'd suggest getting your fill now. Isn't this just going to be passed on to US consumers?
Yup, I'd think we will be paying for the wall one way or another. It seems to me like simple math. I don't think Trump can do this without congressional approval?
If you like avocado, I'd suggest getting your fill now.
That's the first thing I thought of too. In Texas, a great deal of our produce came from Mexico. A whole lot of drugs too.
Cathy asked how a Texan feels about Mexican illegals. I have to truthfully say that I think it has affected the quality of public education there as schools have many especially in sanctuary cities. Districts then have to provide free lunch and breakfast and dual language instructors, etc...But I grew up with them, so they were just part of the accepted culture there. No real resentment. Just folks trying to get by like the rest of us.
Speaking of bringing manufacturing back to the U.S., I've been hearing more about how manufacturing isn't like it used to be. Many times now, it's automated, or too advanced for unskilled laborers....not like it used to be.
ApatheticNoMore
1-26-17, 6:17pm
According to an article I found on kqed's website the average American family spent 10% of their income on clothes in 1960, compared to less than 3.5% today and we buy far more clothes today than we did then. You can thank (or blame) the shift of clothing manufacture to countries with cheap labor.
I do blame it, there are whole books on "Fast Fashion" and what a disaster it is terms of the environment, labor conditions of those making the clothes etc., it's a whole genre :~), which I find rather interesting.
What with global climate change, I hope to be able to grow avocados in my back yard any time now.
I'm not keeping up with the 10% clothing budget, and I have more (thrifted) clothing than I can wear at this point. Even my shoe fetish doesn't come close. I'm falling behind...:doh:
Teacher Terry
1-26-17, 7:29pm
I think the Repub's are going to be more interested in their own re-elections then staying on Trump's good side. I have seen some of them on TV telling Trump to stop doing certain things so don't think they will blindly follow him but I could be wrong:|(.
I think The Wall is a terrible symbol and a ridiculous waste of money. I don't want to live in post-war Berlin or present-day North Korea. Just institute a guest worker program and let these poor people out of the shadows. The vast majority of them are contributing members of society being exploited by greedy employers.
iris lilies
1-26-17, 9:23pm
I think The Wall is a terrible symbol and a ridiculous waste of money. I don't want to live in post-war Berlin or present-day North Korea. Just institute a guest worker program and let these poor people out of the shadows. The vast majority of them are contributing members of society being exploited by greedy employers.
I think the Wall is a great symbol and a terrible waste of money, kinda the Trump style.
I think the Wall is a great symbol and a terrible waste of money, kinda the Trump style.
You make a good point. I suppose he'll cover it in gold leaf.
iris lilies
1-26-17, 9:53pm
This post reminds me of how I, and others, love walled cities as long as they are ancient. The city of York is wonderful with its old wall surroundng the city centre. Chester has remnants of a wall. And the The great wall of China! people like that artifact.
Sometimes walls are nice.
I worry about migratory wildlife. The birds will do OK, I suppose.
I don't mind limited walls--personally, I'd love a walled property. I'll settle for a stout fence with a gate, though. :cool:
Yeah, I'm sure it would mess up the various routes of various animals. And I imagine, it would sort of ruin the view for people who live close to it. I wonder how the wall would keep people from tunneling under it? I guess Woodchucks and burrowing animals would be okay. :)
Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to upgrade our systems for checking immigration status at the time of employment? Making it much harder to find work would discourage illegals more than a fence would.
Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to upgrade our systems for checking immigration status at the time of employment? Making it much harder to find work would discourage illegals more than a fence would.
Maybe, but that would be far less emotionally satisfying for the wall's hardcore supporters.
Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to upgrade our systems for checking immigration status at the time of employment? Making it much harder to find work would discourage illegals more than a fence would.
Or up the penalties for hiring illegals. But honestly, I think you're having a logic attack here. What you've suggested doesn't make nearly as good of a campaign slogan as "I'm going to build a wall. A beautiful wall."
Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to upgrade our systems for checking immigration status at the time of employment? Making it much harder to find work would discourage illegals more than a fence would.
I think that's the catch-22 in the whole system. They want to crack down on illegals, but they don't want to change the system that allows businesses to use illegals for cheap labor. People who talk about getting rid of all illegals don't talk about who they would be replaced with in the workforce (and I recently read it's like 5% of the workforce).
iris lilies
1-27-17, 2:46pm
Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to upgrade our systems for checking immigration status at the time of employment? Making it much harder to find work would discourage illegals more than a fence would.
You would thnk it wouod be cheaper, but what knows. Besides, any system can be beat. Even a concrete wall.
Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to upgrade our systems for checking immigration status at the time of employment? Making it much harder to find work would discourage illegals more than a fence would.
That wouldn't do a thing to deter the Mexican individuals that Trump is trying to discourage... those that make their money "under the table" so to speak.
I could be corrected, but have been under the impression that fake black market documents like green cards and SS numbers are easy to get. Big employers, like maybe mcDonalds, can verify them through an e-verify system, but small companies that do construction or food service probably don't bother.
But I agree. Cracking down on employers is probably much cheaper than a wall.
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