View Full Version : Muslim Ban - create bigger problems?
As I read this from today's Christian Science Monitor , the Muslim ban makes no sense.
"Since 9/11, not a single immigrant from any one of the countries listed by the White House – who have already been subject to a stringent, two-year vetting process – has been involved in the death of an American in a terrorist attack. According to the New America think tank, the great majority of jihadists in the US have been citizens or legal residents, and about one-quarter were converts."
With similar statistics on Canadian http://http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/canadian-mass-murders-1.3958772 extremism:
In fact, in the pantheon of Canadian mass murderers, Mr. Bissonnette is entirely unremarkable. Just about every single one in our modern history has been a Canadian-born, Canadian citizen, and usually white and Christian, meaning extreme vetting of immigrants from places like Yemen and Iraq wouldn't have done a thing to prevent their predations.
As ISIS loses its strongholds, it is not going to fold and go away but will continue underground using today's technology to win converts around the world including the US.
So many people have made plans, obtained visas at great expense in order to attend conferences, attend school, visit family etc and they are all in limbo with this ban. All that disappointment is so unnecessary and ill-advised. How does this help the US? Help me understand.
So many people have made plans, obtained visas at great expense in order to attend conferences, attend school, visit family etc and they are all in limbo with this ban. All that disappointment is so unnecessary and ill-advised. How does this help the US? Help me understand.
The administration saved us from a 5 year old US citizen who might have been hell bent on destroying the US - and they justified it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/white-house-five-year-old-boy-detained-dulles-international-airport-hours-sean-spicer-pose-security-a7554521.html?cmpid=facebook-post
iris lily
1-31-17, 12:44pm
Several points here, first one being it is inflammatory and incorrect to call ths a "Muslim ban."
I look at this temporary ban of immigrants from the seven countries identified by
Barak Obama as being terrorism strongholds as a high profile, low effectiveness action. But there is nothng wrong as I see it in taking a temporary assessment of immigrant intake procedures. New administration, new procedures may prevail. You, OP, along with the Christian Science Monitor do not know about the many surveillance efforts currently taking place all over the country. If your only measure is " deaths of Americans on American soil so far..." that is an inadequate measure.
But the travel ban was handled ham handedly. No surprise, look at the king ham. I am concerned about the people who aided U.S. Military and their families who are affected by this ban. We need to keep our word, and if we tell someone "we will resettle you in the U.S. out of danger, since you are now a traitor in the eyes of Islam radicals" then by god we need to do so.
I have some concern also about those who have been issued "green cards." I hear mutterings that this ban may be unconstitutional for them. I dont throw the word "unconstitutional" around because, like Barak Obama, that determination is way above my pay grade. But it is possible that it would be determined "unconstitutional."
In the end, I think little to keep Americans safe from terrorism will be accomplished during these few months of review. A review of a high profile issue is a Good Thing, however. Yes, many will be inconvenienced, and I sincerely hope it is only inconvenience.
This is just putting off the inevitable. We are, right now, growing our own radicalized Muslim men on American soil. They are growing up around us and threats from them will become more common.
One of the more interesting theories i've read is that trump and his team expected the outrage and the inevitable judicial orders staying some, or all, of the executive order because it was actually a test of DHS to see if they would defy the judicial branch. Obviously he has a lot more power if he can get rid of those pesky checks and balances.
iris lilies
1-31-17, 12:54pm
One of the more interesting theories i've read is that trump and his team expected the outrage and the inevitable judicial orders staying some, or all, of the executive order because it was actually a test of DHS to see if they would defy the judicial branch. Obviously he has a lot more power if he can get rid of those pesky checks and balances.
That IS interesting, and there are so many ways to look at this travel ban.
You know how when you get a new toy as a child, you start randmly pushing the buttons on it to see how it works? This theory looks like that, The Donald playing with his new toy, the U.S. Government, to see how everyhing works together. Or doesnt work together. But the idea is getting a handle on the toy and its inner workings.
DHS is Department of Homeland Security? i assume.
I don't understand why he doesn't just put a ban on all immigration, from all countries, exempting of course the green card holders. Why single out any countries, why not take a break and reexamine the procedures, if that is his intent, but not single out any one country?
I'm not saying I would do that, I just don't understand why he didn't do that.
I don't understand why he doesn't just put a ban on all immigration, from all countries, exempting of course the green card holders. Why single out any countries, why not take a break and reexamine the procedures, if that is his intent, but not single out any one country?
I'm not saying I would do that, I just don't understand why he didn't do that.
As I understand it, he used the previous administrations list of countries who would/could not cooperate in appropriate background investigations of their citizens. It's not as sexy as a blanket 'Muslim ban', but what is?
I don't understand why he doesn't just put a ban on all immigration, from all countries, exempting of course the green card holders. Why single out any countries, why not take a break and reexamine the procedures, if that is his intent, but not single out any one country?
I'm not saying I would do that, I just don't understand why he didn't do that.
I saw a chart lining up which countries were banned, which predominately Muslim countries were not, and where Trump has business interests. It lined up pretty well.
iris lilies
1-31-17, 2:06pm
I saw a chart lining up which countries were banned, which predominately Muslim countries were not, and where Trump has business interests. It lined up pretty well.
Who would have thought that Barak Obama would be looking out for The Donald in choosing whch Muslim countries to include on his own,Barak's, list? Damn, that guy is thoughtful.
Who would have thought that Barak Obama would be looking out for The Donald in choosing whch Muslim countries to include on his own,Barak's, list? Damn, that guy is thoughtful.
A number of long term allies are "questionable", but have been mitigated by business interests.
It's interesting seeing Obama as a source for validation, though.
ToomuchStuff
1-31-17, 2:33pm
As I understand it, he used the previous administrations list of countries who would/could not cooperate in appropriate background investigations of their citizens. It's not as sexy as a blanket 'Muslim ban', but what is?
We, members of my state, are not allowed to fly based on our driver's license/state id, because it isn't part of the system.
Besides non cooperation, possible regulations changes, changes in personal and his appointee's for departments are having affects (see the AG issue's). While I think they are more apt to be home grown, or come across our southern border (a few I know were caught coming across the northern ones), this is in part a feel safe move, in the same way the TSA takes your "possible explosive liquids". (and doesn't explode them)
......this is in part a feel safe move......
I agree, plus it's a campaign promise, to do a better job at vetting people coming into the country. Those countries who can't or won't cooperate will be inconvenienced for a while.
Teacher Terry
1-31-17, 3:07pm
It is much more then inconvenience when people can't get off planes or are forced to fly back to the country they fled. The university here is warning people to not leave the US for the next 120 days if they come from one of those countries. Trump said the news networks needed to fire reporters for lying about him. So far only Fox news has. Trying to silence the media is the first step in tyranny. Also not keeping our promise to those that helped us is very disturbing. This will not be forgotten by the world.
This will not be forgotten by the world.I'm not so sure of that. Everyone seems to have forgotten that Carter and Obama did the same.
iris lilies
1-31-17, 3:14pm
It is much more then inconvenience when people can't get off planes or are forced to fly back to the country they fled. The university here is warning people to not leave the US for the next 120 days if they come from one of those countries. Trump said the news networks needed to fire reporters for lying about him. So far only Fox news has. Trying to silence the media is the first step in tyranny. Also not keeping our promise to those that helped us is very disturbing. This will not be forgotten by the world.
Who was fired this week? You cant possibly be talking about Stacy Dash.
Teacher Terry
1-31-17, 3:19pm
MSNBC reported it last night. I can't remember the reporters name.
iris lilies
1-31-17, 10:56pm
MSNBC reported it last night. I can't remember the reporters name.
I take freedom of the press seriously, but I havent found the story to be able to pursue it. Fox has fired a number of people over the years and including in recent months, but I didnt see anything take place within the past 2-3days.
Lying is a good reason to fire smene. Telling a fact that the President deems incorrect about himself is a poor reason to fire someone, but I will bet there is more to the story.
gimmethesimplelife
1-31-17, 11:40pm
This travel ban.....I just don't know. I spent a week in Morocco September 2015 and I have to say that it was the most foreign place I have ever been in my life. Of course it is a Muslim country and Muslim culture is very different from US culture. But I didn't feel the slightest bit threatened and everyone was decent to me (though a bit pushy in the souks or markets but you run into that in Mexico, too). I understand that Morocco is one of the more stable Muslim countries (but Morocco also had many young men join the refugee trail with their favorite country to land in being Sweden). My point here is that while I recognize the Muslim culture as being vastly different from Western culture, I don't see it as a threat. Not at all. I can accept that within the Muslim culture there are radicals with less than saintly intentions....show me one culture without it's misfits and radicals? Timothy McVeigh who committed the Oklahoma City bombing over 20 years ago comes to mind as an American example. I personally believe that some caution when dealing with the Muslim culture overall is not unwarranted but to blanket assume evil intentions from every last Muslim? No wonder they have a low opinion of us, I would too if I were Muslim. Of course, too, I myself am a misfit in many ways in US culture so it's easy for me to see it from the perspective of someone of a different culture - if I fit in better I likely would have a harder time to see this from another perspective.
At any rate, I believe this blanket ban? Sending the wrong message to the world and causing more ill will and bad opinions of the US and it's people. Though Justin Trudeau was able to score some political points and also to make Canada look saintly on the world stage vs. the US, this does not help the US any. Bad opinions of the US and it's people coupled with Trumps's overall arrogance seems like a great recruiting tool for ISIS and other radical groups to me, especially to young men with no stake in any society and very little if anything at all to lose. This was not a bright move on so many levels, though I'm glad Canada was able to use this foolish US decision to gain some shine and luster and political points on the world stage - at least some good came of this decison somewhere. Better than it being a total negative, but once again, this doesn't help the US any. Rob
flowerseverywhere
1-31-17, 11:41pm
[QUOTE=iris lily;262251]Several points here, first one being it is inflammatory and incorrect to call ths a "Muslim ban."
[/QUOTE
even Rudy acknowledged it was a Muslim ban. Now spicer said it was not a ban, even thought he and Trump said as much and Trump tweeted the word ban.
The message is loud and clear. Muslims you are not wanted here. It is not any more inflammatory or incorrect to call it a Muslim ban than it was to call the ACA Obamacare. That certainly continues to be said with disgust.
Look at the people Trump is surrounding himself with. I don't think it is a coincidence that it is largely very rich white men who are poised to enhance their bankrolls.
This is is just the beginning of a huge reform of our immigration policy. Make America White again. They should print hats. In China.
gimmethesimplelife
1-31-17, 11:44pm
[QUOTE=iris lily;262251]Several points here, first one being it is inflammatory and incorrect to call ths a "Muslim ban."
[/QUOTE
even Rudy acknowledged it was a Muslim ban. Now spicer said it was not a ban, even thought he and Trump said as much and Trump tweeted the word ban.
The message age is loud and clear. Muslims you are not wanted here. It is not any more inflammatory or incorrect to call it a Muslim ban than it was to call the ACA Obamacare. That certainly continues to be said with disgust.
Look at the people Trump is surrounding himself with. I don't think it is a coincidence that it is largely very rich white men who are poised to enhance their bankrollsFlowerseverywhere (Btw, I've always liked your screen name and I've been wanting to say that for a long time, finally got around to it), I know we have had our disagreements in the past but I could not agree with you more here. I'm glad I'm not the only one here who sees this.....Thank You. Rob
flowerseverywhere
1-31-17, 11:47pm
I agree, plus it's a campaign promise, to do a better job at vetting people coming into the country. Those countries who can't or won't cooperate will be inconvenienced for a while.
How will the countries be inconvenienced? Their citizens might.
Why hey has the ban not been extended to include countries the 9/11 attackers came from?
flowerseverywhere
1-31-17, 11:50pm
Rob, I am overwhelmed with the hate I see all around me. For the life of me I don't know how people can crusade against abortion and refuse to help those at the bottom of the heap. We have only begun to see the hate and intolerance that has been simmering. I live in a very red state and it truly amazes me.
I see the Muslim Travel ban as Trump throwing the deplorables a bone. He said he'd do it (actually far worse). He did it. Check it off the list! I doubt that even the authors of the ban think it makes us safer.
How will the countries be inconvenienced? Their citizens might.
Why hey has the ban not been extended to include countries the 9/11 attackers came from?
Yes, citizens of those countries.
As I understand it, the temporary travel ban included only those countries the previous administration listed as countries meeting two criteria, one being a history of violent radicals and two being the inability or refusal to assist US immigration officials in checking background and history of the people leaving those countries. I'm guessing the country/countries you'd like to see included didn't meet the Obama administrations criteria.
flowerseverywhere
2-1-17, 5:02pm
Yes, citizens of those countries.
As I understand it, the temporary travel ban included only those countries the previous administration listed as countries meeting two criteria, one being a history of violent radicals and two being the inability or refusal to assist US immigration officials in checking background and history of the people leaving those countries. I'm guessing the country/countries you'd like to see included didn't meet the Obama administrations criteria.
that is not what I said. I rarely believe it is all or nothing. I think we all agree that vetting and careful,scrutiny needs to be taken of every refugee and immigrant. I would not like to see any religion banned unilaterally. Hate and intolerance breeds more of the same. Perhaps what made it much worse is the hasty unorganized rollout. There was no need not to have an organized consistent rollout if indeed it was necessary to do so. I do believe, unlike the President, our intelligence community has excellent advice that our leaders sift through to make their decisions. And just because Obama did it does not make it right.
gimmethesimplelife
2-2-17, 10:22am
Rob, I am overwhelmed with the hate I see all around me. For the life of me I don't know how people can crusade against abortion and refuse to help those at the bottom of the heap. We have only begun to see the hate and intolerance that has been simmering. I live in a very red state and it truly amazes me.Flowerseverywhere, I agree. I live in a red state, too - though one that is becoming less red over time. The amount of hatred towards Hispanics in this state has always boggled my mind and is one of many reasons that I live in a predominately Hispanic area. (that and that fact that my neighborhood is overall quite safe and for a large city, affordable compared to most) I am just amazed how much misinformation spreads around and how much hatred there is for those who are "different" - I've always been "different" pretty much since I was eight years old and started seeing things differently from how society would rather I see things - naturally I'm going to cast my lot with those on the outside. I find myself capable of living in a red state (though sometimes I feel like Rod Serling is going to step out at any time and start narrating about my experiences in the Twilight Zone) but I could not live in an area amongst the haters. So I live in the 85006, a zip code I take pleasure in identifying with as even though I am not Hispanic, l tend towards understanding my neighbors here much better than I would in an area further north, better off economically, and dare I say it....much more white? (and yes, I realize not ALL whites are like this, and I personally know some that are not). Enough are in this red state that I prefer to live in a predominately Hispanic area. On the surface I find this depressing but in reality my life is much richer due to the experiences I have had via casting my lot in a "different" area - I wouldn't go back now.
Though I will say, I lived in Portland, Oregon from 1991 to 1996 and it at the time was the whitest large city in America at 86% - this is not in the suburbs, this is in the city limits. I did not feel this way in Portland, but of course, Portland and the Willamette Valley in general are blue areas and very liberal. Something else that shaped my thinking about this issue overall - I lived in close in SE Portland, which at the time was very affordable and quite safe, at least in my area. But I lived maybe a ten minute bus ride away from an all white area known as Felony Flats - which lived up to the name. Never had I seen so much white trash in my life, and every time since when I hear someone of the middle class or above speak about those who are "different" in a derogatory way, I remember Felony Flats.....and score avoidance points for whoever is doing the talking. Rob
Never had I seen so much white trash in my life, and every time since when I hear someone of the middle class or above speak about those who are "different" in a derogatory way, I remember Felony Flats.....and score avoidance points for whoever is doing the talking. Rob
You don't view terms like "white trash" as derogatory?
I lived in Portland for twenty years, and for ten in Beaverton, and I honestly never knew exactly where Felony Flats was located. But I know one of my siblings was careful to avoid it when recently looking for a reasonably-priced house--a disappearing commodity there. I think it may have moved farther east though--most of the area's crime seems to be centered on the border between Portland and Gresham.
ApatheticNoMore
2-2-17, 12:00pm
probably a better investment to buy in a bad area though, wait for gentrification, but certainly not everyone's cup of tea.
probably a better investment to buy in a bad area though, wait for gentrification, but certainly not everyone's cup of tea.
That's been a pretty successful ploy for this sibling, but they buy in relatively crime-free working-class neighborhoods.
I wonder what the beer drinking conservatives will think of this Bud commercial that will debut during the super bowl. It is apparently already causing controversy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtBZvl7dIu4
Edited to say: Sorry, I meant to reply to this yet somehow edited it instead. See my post below
I wonder what the beer drinking conservatives will think of this Bud commercial that will debut during the super bowl. It is apparently already causing controversy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtBZvl7dIu4
Real conservatives drink single-malt.
I wonder what the beer drinking conservatives will think of this Bud commercial that will debut during the super bowl. It is apparently already causing controversy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtBZvl7dIu4
I'm not sure why, historically St Louis was a hotbed of immigrant turmoil in the 1850's. The ruling Democrats and nativist Whigs were pretty mean spirited with each other. You know there weren't any Republicans then, right?
I wonder if anyone has come up with any estimates yet of people who will likely die from the ban?
I wonder if anyone has come up with any estimates yet of people who will likely die from the ban?
We're already getting fake news along those lines:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/elderly-iraqi-woman-dies-trump-travel-ban-article-1.2961110
Real conservatives drink single-malt.
In my rust belt I did morning bar cleanup for high school spending money. When the rail and steel workers would get off graveyard they would come in and order the standard "shot and a beer". Which would get a shot of bar whiskey and a giant frosted schooner of Coors. Most would stay for just one. I still get a little thirsty thinking about those frosted schooners.
In my rust belt I did morning bar cleanup for high school spending money. When the rail and steel workers would get off graveyard they would come in and order the standard "shot and a beer". Which would get a shot of bar whiskey and a giant frosted schooner of Coors. Most would stay for just one. I still get a little thirsty thinking about those frosted schooners.
Beer's gotten a lot more chi chi since those days, what with all the artisanal and craft brews with cute names.
We're already getting fake news along those lines:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/elderly-iraqi-woman-dies-trump-travel-ban-article-1.2961110
That happens - I was just wondering if anyone had actually looked at numbers.
I'm not sure why, historically St Louis was a hotbed of immigrant turmoil in the 1850's. The ruling Democrats and nativist Whigs were pretty mean spirited with each other. You know there weren't any Republicans then, right?
I did not know that, but did enjoy refreshing myself with a little history.
Of course the point being that an all American company that is a popular beverage among the working class, and possibly the underemployed rust belt Trump core, is making a statement about immigration. Apparently the commercial was made months ago and is somewhat coincidental. And the immigrant is a nice European German and Bud is now owned by Belgium based giant Inbev.
Well, I feel safer knowing folks like this can't just waltz into the US:
http://www.wcvb.com/article/attorney-iranian-infant-needs-visa-waiver-for-heart-surgery/8671264
The family of a 4-month-old Iranian girl is hoping for a waiver to President Donald Trump's immigration ban so their daughter can have critical heart surgery in Oregon
Well, I feel safer knowing folks like this can't just waltz into the US:
http://www.wcvb.com/article/attorney-iranian-infant-needs-visa-waiver-for-heart-surgery/8671264
The family of a 4-month-old Iranian girl is hoping for a waiver to President Donald Trump's immigration ban so their daughter can have critical heart surgery in Oregon
Isn't that disgusting? She and her parents are real threats to our security. >:(
I read a statistic that in the years from 1975 to 2015, I think it was, no American was killed on American soil by a citizen of the seven countries involved in Trump's ban. I haven't verified that assertion, but certainly most of our mass murderers are home grown. He's fomenting paranoia and xenophobia among his gullible followers so he can manipulate them more easily. Right out of the Nationalist playbook. And now he purportedly is exempting right-wing hate groups from his list of promoters of terrorism. No wonder; that's his base.
iris lilies
2-9-17, 3:19pm
The majority in several Euopean counteies favor stopping Immigration of Muslim people as reported in a recent survey. The question asked people to agree or disagree with this statement:
"All further migration from manly Muslim countries should be stopped."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/most-europeans-want-muslim-ban-immigration-control-middle-east-countries-syria-iran-iraq-poll-a7567301.html
This survey was taken before President Trump's executive order.
Are Europeans honorary red necks? Or are they the real thing?
Isn't that disgusting? She and her parents are real threats to our security. >:(
I read a statistic that in the years from 1975 to 2015, I think it was, no American was killed on American soil by a citizen of the seven countries involved in Trump's ban. I haven't verified that assertion, but certainly most of our mass murderers are home grown. He's fomenting paranoia and xenophobia among his gullible followers so he can manipulate them more easily. Right out of the Nationalist playbook. And now he purportedly is exempting right-wing hate groups from his list of promoters of terrorism. No wonder; that's his base.
I came across this : http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/canadian-woman-turned-away-from-u-s-border-after-questions-about-religion-trump-1.3972019
Canadian woman turned away from U.S. border after questions about religion, Trump
Like it's not about religion. Ironically, if the mosque shooter had decided to come to the US to do that here instead, he likely would have had a much easier time getting in.
Can't add much that alreadly has not been said, but this. My niece's fiance works for George Lucas, lives in the Bay area and was born and raised in the U.S./WA State. He is half Filipino and has a hispanic last name. He has been in London working for a month. For the first time ever last Friday he was detained and interrogated at the airport on his return to the U.S. He was on the watch list.
Good grief! He's just a nerdy animator.
Can't add much that alreadly has not been said, but this. My niece's fiance works for George Lucas, lives in the Bay area and was born and raised in the U.S./WA State. He is half Filipino and has a hispanic last name. He has been in London working for a month. For the first time ever last Friday he was detained and interrogated at the airport on his return to the U.S. He was on the watch list.
I was born in Maine. I'm German-Irish.
I've been pulled out at airports for special screening since 9/11, whenever I have a full beard and a slightly darker skin tone from outside work, and am wearing my normal casual khaki-safari-sorta clothing. My IDF friends say I look like I just got back from Hamas meeting. It's very predictable, probably 3 out of 4 security checkpoints will "talk" to me.
If I'm trimmed down to a smaller beard that fits inside my SCBA, and have a lighter skin tone, and wear more business-casual clothing, they've never given me a second glance.
For a while, I simply gave up flying commercial, as it was irking me.
My niece's fiance is fair-skinned with blue eyes.
My niece's fiance is fair-skinned with blue eyes.
Very suspicious!
Geez, as a blue eyed fair skinned fellow I had not anticipated trouble when we come back from visiting friends in France this summer. Perhaps I need to remember to trim my beard before we get on the plane home...
catherine
2-10-17, 12:10am
My son, the Vermonter, also has a beard that gets a little long and grizzly at times. His ancestral roots are totally Celtic/Anglo-Saxon. He was flagged at security and they found in his carry-on a bottle opener shaped like a gun, and he held for a while and got a serious ticket for it. My other son, the lawyer, had to get him out of it. My Bearded One definitely felt profiled.
Tell me why a bottle opener in the shape of a gun is illegal?
Tell me why a bottle opener in the shape of a gun is illegal?
TSA has issues with anything out of the ordinary. Once upon a time a MIT student came to the airport from some event and her tshirt had led's wired into it (basically some led's, wire, and batteries). She was detained, they talked about arresting her, and it ended with them saying she was lucky she wasn't gunned down by security.
TSA - writes their own laws then huh? Seems unamerican to me.
Everybody has his story about overreaching security.
Nobody wants to be murdered.
Nobody will ever be happy with the balance we strike.
God bless America.
A few years ago I was returning by air to the US after a fishing trip to Canada. Being tight on packing I had a handful of large Northern Pike lures in carry on. They were in the process of confiscating them at the small Canadian airport but I was able to transfer them to my cargo bags.
TSA - writes their own laws then huh? Seems unamerican to me.
It's what happens when government nationalizes an entire business.
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