View Full Version : How to reassure BIL (and stay sane in the process)
I hope this doesn't come off as a vent, although it kind of is.
We FINALLY are putting the house on the market this weekend. EVERYTHING has been done to our listing agent's specifications.
BIL is down to $7000 in a retirement account, and $600 income from unemployment until his golf jobs kick in in the spring. He has drawn down that retirement account now for a couple of years, although he now realizes that was very stupid in terms of penalties he's had to pay.
So now, realizing it's stupid to withdraw retirement savings, he is expecting us to fill the slack in his budget. Not really expecting us to do that, but he certainly spends time fishing for it. Meanwhile we pay his property taxes and home insurance, and we feed him at least 3-4 nights a week. I absolutely refuse to do more than that.
Nevertheless he is totally freaking out. He is almost incoherent with his worry about finances. This morning I had a talk with him because he was practically shaking that the IRS is going walk up to his house and take it from him, because he owes $675 in back taxes. Gave him one of my copies of the IRS Bill Collection Process, and I assured him that EVEN IF his house was in jeopardy of a lien, he would first get a letter, then get 30 days to respond and work out a payment plan and then EVEN if it came to a lien, that only means that the IRS has first dibs on house when we sell it.
He then would ask me questions that I had already answered or he would say things that don't make sense. He also said that he's going to lose his car and his phone. I tried as calmly as I could to explain that he only has to get to March when his golf job starts, that we already did a budget, that we are covering the roof over his head, that his car is paid for and no one can take it from him, that he knows he has a job starting, that we've already promised him a bed here after we sell the house, blah blah blah. I even turned to the Bible and told him that Jesus said to let today's worries be sufficient unto today's.
I also told him, shoot, if the IRS hasn't thrown me in jail for owing the amount I do, he's totally safe. Also that I really don't have much more cash in the bank than he does, and I'm 11 years older. Also that I've been through a whole hell of a lot worse, and I'm still standing. But he is not processing.
He is really losing it. I did validate his feelings, and I told him that I know it's a big roller coaster of emotion right now, which is understandable. I'd love to suggest that he sees a psychologist or psychiatrist but he'll probably say he doesn't have the money, even though he does have Obamacare.
How do you help people deal with irrational fear?
iris lilies
1-31-17, 2:08pm
It is impossible to know what mental health care services his Obamacare policy covers and how much he has to pay without looking at the specifics of his policy. i would make no assumptions.
Sounds to me like you are doing fine. The fact that he hasnt figured out about money now isnt any more of your problem than 20 years ago,when someone else was taking cate of him and he was blowing through money.
it might be a good thing that the end of his bank account is in sight? Maybe. Just continue to be calm and repaet that he will have a bed with you guys. But do not over-promise.
personally,
I would not promise that even. He could move in with you and then you are mom and dad, paying for a roof and food, and his money is all fun money. Dont put yourself in that situation.
Couple of ideas--first off, bless you for being such a wonderful sil and friend.
Second, it does sound like some therapy might be a good idea for his mental health. Catholic Charities will see him on a sliding scale as in "virtually nothing," and he probably has access to therapy under his Obamacare. So maybe help him check that out? He sounds like his anxiety is getting really intense, and that is not good, and he probably would benefit from seeing someone.
Third, he might really benefit from going to a Debtor's Anonymous meeting, and maybe you and your DH could take him to one, to kind of get him in the door. I have gone to meetings to help me with my strong emotions about money and my underearning and everything he is describing to you is exactly the kind of thoughts, emotions, and feelings that people talk about at DA. Check out DA and check out UA, which is Underearner's Anonymous.
Here is website to DA:
http://debtorsanonymous.org/
here is website to UA:
http://underearnersanonymous.org/
IF he can take a train into the city, he can get to face to face meetings for both of these.
Again, bless you.
Teacher Terry
1-31-17, 2:21pm
Have him get on the list for low income senior housing now as the waiting list is usually long. He needs a therapist. You have done all you can do. I agree that helping him temporarily but IL is right that you can't let this be a long term solution.
freshstart
1-31-17, 2:31pm
I agree with Teacher Terry
He is freaking because doing so has worked before every time and someone rescued him. I agree with the suggestion to get him signed into a low-income home waiting list now.
If you provide a roof and food now, you will be doing it infinitum unless some other plan is put in place now. Set boundaries and stick to them.
iris lilies
2-1-17, 9:00am
He is freaking because doing so has worked before every time and someone rescued him. I agree with the suggestion to get him signed into a low-income home waiting list now.
If you provide a roof and food now, you will be doing it infinitum unless some other plan is put in place now. Set boundaries and stick to them.
This is good about him freaking in the past.
Thanks, everyone. Great advice as always.
I'll mention DA and UA--maybe getting in with a group of people who have overcome similar situations and worse would help. I keep pushing him to listen to Dave Ramsey's podcasts, but he'll counter me with "But the horse is out of the barn" and I say "What does that mean? That's exactly WHY you want to listen to the podcasts!" arghh..
Razz, he never even had to get to the freak-out mode in the past, but you raise a good point. His mother was a ridiculous enabler. Not only did she pay for everything without asking him for ANYthing, but she paid off his credit cards when they got too high. She did without--she would bring tea bags to restaurants to save the money on a cup of tea, but she wouldn't say anything about the $20/lb cheeses and the grassfed beef that he would feed to his dog. He would lose a job and she wouldn't encourage him to get another, so he sat on his a$$ for months/years at a time. So he truly has never, ever been in this situation and reality is hitting him like a ton of bricks.
I also like the idea about applying for senior housing! Great idea! I'll also gently suggest that he talk to a professional.
iris lilies
2-1-17, 10:37am
I do wonder about an asset test for the BIL in getting on a wait list for senior housing. He will get money from New Jersey real estate, and that will be a big chunk. Would that disqualify him? Also, is he old enough to get on a list?
I do wonder about an asset test for the BIL in getting on a wait list for senior housing. He will get money from New Jersey real estate, and that will be a big chunk. Would that disqualify him? Also, is he old enough to get on a list?
That's true.. he's too young for senior housing, so I just looked up affordable housing in NJ and this is what I found: http://www.nj.gov/dca/affiliates/coah/reports/incomelimits.pdf
Based on these numbers, he would probably qualify for affordable housing. The asset max is slightly over what he'll probably get from the house sale.
iris lilies
2-1-17, 12:33pm
That's true.. he's too young for senior housing, so I just looked up affordable housing in NJ and this is what I found: http://www.nj.gov/dca/affiliates/coah/reports/incomelimits.pdf
Based on these numbers, he would probably qualify for affordable housing. The asset max is slightly over what he'll probably get from the house sale.
Non-senior Public housing here is brutal. Despite all of the billions of tax dollars poured into it and despite the do-gooders runnng around to manage it (when they havent been jailed for fraud, a common malady with these administrators) it remains a hotbed of crime.
I would be surprised if your public housing is any better. It isnt easy being poor.
That's true.. he's too young for senior housing, so I just looked up affordable housing in NJ and this is what I found: http://www.nj.gov/dca/affiliates/coah/reports/incomelimits.pdf
Based on these numbers, he would probably qualify for affordable housing. The asset max is slightly over what he'll probably get from the house sale.
The income levels are surprisingly high, as is the asset max! Will he get social security?
It seems to me he should apply for affordable housing and get a full time job somewhere, maybe retail again.
This looks doable, going forward, and he needs to take care of himself from now on out and not live at your house, for everyone's sake, in my opinion. Best for all.
Especially as you will be selling too, one of these days.
Qualifying and having vouchers available are often a huge waiting list apart. He needs to get a job and make plans and a budget. But I predict he will continue to whine, complain, and demand because that is what he was taught works. Do not let him live with you or he will NEVER leave.
I would also suggest that if he continues the circular path of conversation that always goes back to poor me, that you take a stand and tell him that you have provided sources and guidance and will not continue to discuss the same thing over and over. Tell him you only want to hear what he has done and is doing, not constant complaints about the past and how difficult life is. Otherwise, he has a constant ear in you and gets nothing done.
ps: I am known for not having a lot of sympathy for constant repetitive complaints.
Teacher Terry
2-1-17, 2:30pm
Here the low income and senior housing is awesome. I have a few friends that live in the senior housing. Also my friend with MS lives in low income that is not senior and it is really nice.
iris lilies
2-1-17, 3:11pm
Qualifying and having vouchers available are often a huge waiting list apart. He needs to get a job and make plans and a budget. But I predict he will continue to whine, complain, and demand because that is what he was taught works. Do not let him live with you or he will NEVER leave.
I would also suggest that if he continues the circular path of conversation that always goes back to poor me, that you take a stand and tell him that you have provided sources and guidance and will not continue to discuss the same thing over and over. Tell him you only want to hear what he has done and is doing, not constant complaints about the past and how difficult life is. Otherwise, he has a constant ear in you and gets nothing done.
ps: I am known for not having a lot of sympathy for constant repetitive complaints.
ditto.
and true too about public housing. Here the supply is way low for the demand. Here the wait lists "close" at a point in the year because there is no point in keeping on a list that will not be processed. BIL should be careful about assuming Nanny G will prvide him housing. now, if he moves out to where Teacher Terry lives he might get housing.
I thnk his best bet will be to retire in Florida and get himself a financially secure girlfriend.
I thnk his best bet will be to retire in Florida and get himself a financially secure girlfriend.
That is EXACTLY what we've been telling him to do! He doesn't even have to retire--there are a million golf courses there and that's the one job sector he's managed to work in consistently for years (at minimum wage, but it's something). Get out of NJ for God's sake! And sign up for Match.com, eHarmony, even Tinder. He's got a great sense of humor when he's not playing Eeyore or planning to jump off the nearest bridge, so some rich divorcee in Boca might find him to be a great companion.
That is EXACTLY what we've been telling him to do! He doesn't even have to retire--there are a million golf courses there and that's the one job sector he's managed to work in consistently for years (at minimum wage, but it's something). Get out of NJ for God's sake! And sign up for Match.com, eHarmony, even Tinder. He's got a great sense of humor when he's not playing Eeyore or planning to jump off the nearest bridge, so some rich divorcee in Boca might find him to be a great companion.
I would tell him to buy a home in an over 55 trailer park--there are some really nice ones--HOA won't be so bad, and get a job, and he should be all set!
Show him this one--540 a month HOA, and under 18K:
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/col/rvs/5985141116.html
note ernest hemingway lookalike with fish. . .
better than renting. . .
Ooh, check out this one in Venice, Fl
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/chl/for/5957226364.html
iris lilies
2-1-17, 4:43pm
Ooh, check out this one in Venice, Fl
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/chl/for/5957226364.html
It's amazing how nice and cute some of those low priced mobile homes are. I was on a jag where I looked at them online for some months. Then I traveled to Bradenton, FL which is in the St. Pete/Sarasota area. I drove through several of the big mobile home parks there. They are a bit too crowded for me, but if I didnt have much money, I could make it work. They are broght and pleasant. The main problem was traffic, ugh, and I wasnt even there for the high season.
Florida has about 30 more years of Boomers crowding into the place, then the population will drop when the end of the Boomers is reached.
Cool, Tybee! Thanks for doing the scouting! I like both of them! I'll definitely put that bee in his bonnet.
Teacher Terry
2-1-17, 6:31pm
There is a community called the villages that sounds wonderful and they have a ton of stuff going on everyday. Problem is that I hate, hate, hate Florida weather. I have been to Miami in Dec and twice to Tampa in April and it was so hot and humid that it was terrible. I would never go outside:|( and I love going outside.
flowerseverywhere
2-2-17, 4:29am
There is a community called the villages that sounds wonderful and they have a ton of stuff going on everyday. Problem is that I hate, hate, hate Florida weather. I have been to Miami in Dec and twice to Tampa in April and it was so hot and humid that it was terrible. I would never go outside:|( and I love going outside.
I live in the villages and it is far from a low income area. All free standing homes, no apartments or condos. Fabulous place.
There are many low income towns and trailer parks all over the south.
It also seems a funny piece of advice to have him find some rich woman to support him. Kind of like the advice women used to get. Remember the phrase "gold diggers".
I agree with all the posters who have said not to commit to having him live and be supported by you the rest of his life. You need to protect your sanity and your future.
It also seems a funny piece of advice to have him find some rich woman to support him. Kind of like the advice women used to get. Remember the phrase "gold diggers".
I know.. I'm not truly into opportunistic romance whether it's the man or woman "digging"--it just wouldn't be a bad thing for him to find a nice life companion--for many reasons.
ToomuchStuff
2-2-17, 9:04am
How do you make someone rational that is irrational? If you find out something universal that works, please let me know. Until he becomes rational, decides HE has to face up to whatever comes and pulls his head out of his :moon:, all of your :idea: and suggestions, are going to make a WOOSH sound, going by him.
Teacher Terry
2-2-17, 1:19pm
Flowers: I know it is not low income. I looked into the prices. I was talking about me and not her brother.
flowerseverywhere
2-2-17, 5:15pm
Flowers: I know it is not low income. I looked into the prices. I was talking about me and not her brother.
That makes more sense now. Prices here can be crazy. We bought at the bottom of the market. Some parts of Florida are still recovering. Here it is Groundhog Day and I am sitting outside in shorts listening to the birds sing. Loving it here.
Update: Good news and bad news.
Open House tomorrow: our listing agent is thrilled with how the house looks and expects it to sell quickly at a price that we think is very reasonable.
Bad news: This is likely to go long because it's a crazy story.
My DH had his regular medical outpatient procedure Tuesday. He didn't check with me when he scheduled, and I had to be out of town, so he asked BIL to drive him to and from the hospital. The procedure involves anesthesia and he leaves the hospital on pain killers so he absolutely can't drive himself.
So I called in between interviews to see how things were going. At around 11:00, BIL reports that he had just dropped my DH home, but that HE (BIL) was going to the emergency room because his heart didn't feel right. I told him to do what he felt he needed to do.
I didn't imagine that he was going to ask DH--who just CAME from the hospital and is not supposed to drive--to drive HIM to the hospital. (This is what I mean when I say that BIL is "a little off"). I was so angry, and just completely in disbelief at his lack of sensitivity to my husband's condition. DH, even though he was recuperating, agreed to drive him and stayed with him all day. (side note: BIL never even thanked him or asked him how HE was doing.)
Plus, his excessive anxiety about money has been leading to manipulative lines of conversation designed to compel us to offer him money, as I stated earlier, so we're thinking this is another ploy for sympathy, albeit extreme.
Well.. his blood pressure was 225/114! After evaluation/EKG it's been determined he's had extremely high blood pressure for years, because he has an enlarged heart and thickened muscles. He's out of the hospital now and on a medication regimen. He keeps crying out that he can't afford medication and this will be the only month he can get them--even though he has Obamacare and paid ZERO for the 4 meds he got. I've since had read that chronic high BP can cause mental confusion and fogginess, so things are becoming clearer to me in that regard. Unfortunately the fogginess feeds the anxiety and fear.
He has $5k left in two retirement accounts (one about $3k and the other 2k). My DH is ADAMANT that we stop enabling him and allow him to close out all of his accounts to pay his living expenses.
OTOH, in my mind, this situation is a bit of a game-changer. I now feel that if anxiety is playing any part in his extremely high BP readings (which have not gotten much better, but he has two appointments with a primary care doc and cardiologist next week), I would be willing to give him a "bridge loan" in the amount of ONE of those accounts to save him having to close it out. I'd get the money back at closing. I think about my generous MIL and "what would she want us to do?" Yes, she enabled him to his demise, but I'm just talking about getting him healthy and then moving on from there. I'd maybe attach conditions to the loan, like mandatory Dave Ramsey podcasts, going to a psychiatrist and maybe taking mindfulness stress-reduction classes. (there's a free one coming up in a couple of weeks.)
I'm a bit hesitant to broach this to DH because he is much more the "tough love" type, and I also think there are a few negative feelings in there as well--not jealousy, but typical sibling rivalry stuff, which plays out in his frustration and anger when dealing with his brother. He's likely to get angry that I'm even bringing it up.
Do I talk to DH? Do I offer the bridge loan? Am I being too soft? If he has a stroke before the house sells, I'm going to wonder if the money worries had any part of that, and could I have done something about it? You have to understand, that he truly is "not all there" when it comes to dealing with his fears.
iris lilies
2-11-17, 9:33am
Praise the Lord Jesus that your DH is adament you all will stop giving his brother money. That is 90% of the battle.
Looking at this as a big picture without any details, it boils down to: catherine is thinking about giving away her money again. If we think the Big Picture is too simplistic to be useful in making this decision, ok, just keep it on the back of your mind. Money isnt the real problem here, and money will not solve it.
i wrote more below and then deleted it because I don't think details matter at this point.
If you give him money, it will be for you, not for him. That isnt a bad thing to do, just own what you are doing.
If DH is adamant that you not give him money, then do not give him money, either as a gift or a loan. This is the simplest way to look at the problem, and probably the easiest for all involved.
I am so sorry he is sick, and yes, no doubt the stress of his financial situation is a big factor in his getting sick. He may actually be in a better position with no money getting sick, if that makes sense. The system seems to be set up to help people with no money, or bankrupt everyone else to get to that point.
So if you give him more money, then you are just bankrupting himself. The help is available to him because he has no money, and now is sick. Let him use the Obamacare he has and do not start giving him money, because it will never be enough, and you really do not want more responsibility for him. The system will help him and get him medication, etc.
I would urge him to get into Catholic Charities and get counseling, and they can help him with issues like housing, too.
And I truly feel for the poor guy, as money worries are horrible, especially when you are sick. But it's not like worrying is going to get him better or solve the money problems.
To me, it is like hitting financial bottom. If you keep feeding him money, it will take longer to hit financial bottom, and your money will be gone, and you need to get yourself out of debt, for your own financial future.
Please take care of yourself here--you can't afford to get sick too.
One more thing--
"I think about my generous MIL and "what would she want us to do?" Yes, she enabled him to his demise, but I'm just talking about getting him healthy and then moving on from there. I'd maybe attach conditions to the loan, like mandatory Dave Ramsey podcasts, going to a psychiatrist and maybe taking mindfulness stress-reduction classes. (there's a free one coming up in a couple of weeks.)"
I think this is a good sign that this is the wrong thing to do, that MIL would have done it. If she enabled him to his demise, do not continue to enable him.
Conditions on the loan are not going to work. He is not your child, and you are not his legal guardian.
And I you are trying to do all this out of your kindness and concern for him, and that is wonderful, I get that.
But no, if you ask yourself what would mil do and this is it, then don't do it.
That's my advice, anyway.
catherine
2-11-17, 10:28am
Praise the Lord Jesus that your DH is adament you all will stop giving his brother money. That is 90% of the battle.
But no, if you ask yourself what would mil do and this is it, then don't do it.
Well, I really respect the opinion of both of you guys, so thank you. Good points. I guess my line of thinking was it's just a short term loan, not a give-away. But you're right. He's got to deal with reality, and no matter how big the band-aid, it's not going to fix what's really wrong.
Plus, I really have to make sure I have enough money for my tax bill. Honestly, I can't afford to give him money, even short term--or maybe especially short term, i.e. before the house sells. I keep telling him that I'm no better off than he is--not much more money, a HUGE nut I have to come up with every month, and I'm 11 years older than he is. So if I'm not freaking out, he shouldn't be.
Thanks for the input..
Do I sound snarky if I suggest that 'you' have problems with handling money? You don't own all the problems of the world and no one has the money to do so so don't attempt to do so. Please!
BIL is a grownup so treat him as one not as a dependent petulant 3 year old. You have to meet your needs now and in the future so they take priority while you still have some income coming in. You don't know how long that will last; life happens as we all know.
Oh, that does sound snarky but it seems that few in your life are drawing the line in the sand because you don't seem capable of doing so. Thank heavens, your DH is stepping in and saying no more $$ to BIL. It is the most common sense thing to do; give him credit for using his common sense.
catherine
2-11-17, 10:48am
Snarky reality checks are as good as any, razz.
He just came in and said, "Got orange juice? I need some kind of juice." Then "I need food. Anything."
So DH makes him breakfast.. and both of OUR BP is rising at this point. I think you all are right. He is "leaning in" to our generosity, but really..
Snarky reality checks are as good as any, razz.
He just came in and said, "Got orange juice? I need some kind of juice." Then "I need food. Anything."
So DH makes him breakfast.. and both of OUR BP is rising at this point. I think you all are right. He is "leaning in" to our generosity, but really..
Grab that agent today and list your house, too, and buy something in Vermont. Fast, lol.
This one in Middlebury--it';s you!!
https://www.trulia.com/property/3244331032-708-Route-7-N-Middlebury-VT-05753#photo-14
catherine
2-11-17, 11:21am
This one in Middlebury--it';s you!!
https://www.trulia.com/property/3244331032-708-Route-7-N-Middlebury-VT-05753#photo-14
That is adorable!! The kitchen table actually matches mine! It is SO me.
Hmmm.....Great college town, too!
What a wonderful house! I love the wild yard, particularly. And the price.
Could you make it happen?
ToomuchStuff
2-11-17, 2:32pm
So you have paid off all your tax debt? Feel poor, but think you can loan money to someone poorer, who hasn't figured out how to get/keep his own money, and think that he will pay you back?
If you gave him this $2000 as a loan, do you think that he would walk away and never bother you again (or rather run and hide, hoping you didn't look for him), or do you think the phrase, thank you, can I have another, mean anything to you? If the earlier one, then it might be worth it. Otherwise I am just shaking my head in disbelief that you are ignoring all the signs, your gut, and falling for his whining.:0!:confused::doh:
Take a more indepth look at the pictures that go along with that house in Middlebury. I think there is a reason for the price. Wonder what the pillows" are that are stuffed behind the headboard and is that the driveway?
He is freaking because doing so has worked before every time and someone rescued him. I agree with the suggestion to get him signed into a low-income home waiting list now.
If you provide a roof and food now, you will be doing it infinitum unless some other plan is put in place now. Set boundaries and stick to them.
+1
You too will go broke helping him. "getting him back to healthy" will not happen. He is the perfect victim actor. He moved from Mom to you/brother. You too are an enabler. He is not your responsibility. You have a choice. Do it or don't do it. You don't sound like you're rolling in dough. YOUR retirement comes first and it sounds like you are far from prepared for it.
Tough love. Your DH is right. I would not go behind his back for your BIL.
I can only go on the bits I have picked up from previous posts about your family situation. Could it be that you gain a sense of purpose for being the provider in the household? Or could it be your Catholic background fosters a lot of guilt over such decisions? I would say do what you need to do to help him find another "provider" and move on.
Teacher Terry
2-12-17, 1:20pm
Many people that retire do not do it by choice but are forced to by health problems. Any day something could happen making it impossible for you to work and you would have to survive on your assets and SS. Can you do that? When you lend $ to people they grow to resent you in the long run. If you force someone into MH treatment it does not work. Do not be a burden to your kids in your old age by giving your $ to him. No, no and no!!
Many people that retire do not do it by choice but are forced to by health problems. Any day something could happen making it impossible for you to work and you would have to survive on your assets and SS. Can you do that? When you lend $ to people they grow to resent you in the long run. If you force someone into MH treatment it does not work. Do not be a burden to your kids in your old age by giving your $ to him. No, no and no!!
This is such a good point. Making decisions that are okay as long as nothing changes is generally not a good plan. And for what it's worth, I agree with those who say it wouldn't be a loan. How could it be? Sounds like there is little chance of him having money in the future.
Also, I'm not sure if anyone said "eep" about the idea of lending BIL money without DH's knowledge. I think that is a truly dangerous idea. From what you've mentioned about BIL asking DH to drive BIL to the hospital on a day when he truly should not have been doing so, it sounds like your DH's health is not BIL's priority. Pretty fair bet that he won't put your relationship with your partner all that high on the scale of things he's worried about either. "Well, she lent me money before..." i hear him say.
I sound a bit adamant. I've had a leaning nephew, a leaning brother and a kind of leaning BIL, and in my experience giving or loaning them money accomplished nothing good.
OK, so you guys think I should definitely give him the money, right? :)
JK!!!!
I'm getting clear signals. No money. Look after myself. Got it.
OK, so you guys think I should definitely give him the money, right? :)
JK!!!!
I'm getting clear signals. No money. Look after myself. Got it.
Catherine, i'm glad you're keeping your sense of humour about this! I have a vision of a long line of forum members taking turns coming up to the podium/leaping on the soapbox/rehearsing their most convincing lines...
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