View Full Version : Commander in chief
I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that someone who has no military or government experience and who doesn't care about intelligence has a botched raid as his first experience as commander in chief. I can only imagine the howls from conservatives if Clinton had been the president who failed in this manner.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-commando-idUSKBN15G5RX
"U.S. military officials told Reuters that Trump approved his first covert counterterrorism operation without sufficient intelligence, ground support or adequate backup preparations."
Wasn't a botched raid held up as Carter's golden star for being such a bad president?
The story as represented seems a bit unlikely...
I've already got my table booked for this year's CIA awards dinner, so I'll ask around, it's not until a bit later in the year however...
Who knows how many botched events will be up for awards by the time of your awards dinner....
More than most areas of endeavor, military operations are subject to hindsight and second-guessing by the uninvolved. If Trump authorized the mission based on Centcom's best advice, It's hard for me to consider the call he made particularly outrageous.
ApatheticNoMore
2-2-17, 4:33pm
Is the contention here that Trump made this decision single-handedly? That seems implausible to me. And if Trump was more of a rubber stamp if that, then it doesn't make the point that is trying to be made.
Miss Cellane
2-2-17, 4:34pm
The way he is acting, I think he wants to go to war. With whom, I have no idea. And probably neither does he.
But the angry, violent language he uses. The desire for tanks and other military vehicles at his inauguration parade. Wanting a flyover of many aircraft at the inauguration. His reportedly belligerent language to the Mexican president. And now, this reportedly half-cocked mission.
His need to win everything. In his eyes, you either win, or you loose. There is no middle ground, no detente, no consensus, no compromise. And he has to win. All the time. Always.
It's like he *has* to throw his power around, regardless of the consequences. Everyone must be looking at him, praising him, agreeing with him. And if you don't, he will squash you. Whether you are a person, a corporation, or a country.
It's like he's a kid, playing at war. But with far more deadly results.
I hope I'm wrong; I really do.
The story as represented seems a bit unlikely...
I've already got my table booked for this year's CIA awards dinner, so I'll ask around, it's not until a bit later in the year however...
If this is true then how is it you are asking about the meaning of security clearance?
Is the contention here that Trump made this decision single-handedly? That seems implausible to me. And if Trump was more of a rubber stamp if that, then it doesn't make the point that is trying to be made.
According to the article:
"A White House official said the operation was thoroughly vetted by the previous administration and that the previous defense secretary had signed off on it in January. The raid was delayed for operational reasons, the White House official said."
But OTOH,
“The decision was made ... to leave it to the incoming administration, partly in the hope that more and better intelligence could be collected,” that official said."
If this is true then how is it you are asking about the meaning of security clearance?
What is "the Socratic Method"?
Waiting for better information is a time-honored excuse for inaction in many fields. But at some point, you need to pull the trigger.
There are people who will second-guess Trump. There are also people who will second-guess Alexander, Caesar and Napoleon.
If this is true ...?
Are you calling me a liar?
http://i.imgur.com/TcDzUV4.jpg
What is "the Socratic Method"?
A method handed down to us from classical antiquity that allows us to criticize others while advancing no ideas of our own.
But OTOH,
“The decision was made ... to leave it to the incoming administration, partly in the hope that more and better intelligence could be collected,” that official said."
I read this as "because if we wait, in the fullness of time there will be more documents/datas/interesting people at the site..."
The original news story "quotes" unnamed military sources. Who are close enough to this presumably-quite-sensitive operation to know details about the planning and command phases of it. Yet who violated their duty, in order to leak *just the right sort of stuff* needed for a handy clickbait article. And so soon after the operation. It doesn't seem plausible.
I read this as "because if we wait, in the fullness of time there will be more documents/datas/interesting people at the site..."
The original news story "quotes" unnamed military sources. Who are close enough to this presumably-quite-sensitive operation to know details about the planning and command phases of it. Yet who violated their duty, in order to leak *just the right sort of stuff* needed for a handy clickbait article. And so soon after the operation. It doesn't seem plausible.
Yes, I read it the same way. It leaves open to interpretation whether or not they have been able to collect the information needed in the two weeks they've had since the new administration began. I'm giving Trump a pass on this one for the moment. Plus he made that spontaneous move to visit the family of the dead SEAL.
Are you calling me a liar?
http://i.imgur.com/TcDzUV4.jpg
Only if that is really Karl Marx dressed up as you. :)
In any case, great pic.
gimmethesimplelife
2-2-17, 5:47pm
The way he is acting, I think he wants to go to war. With whom, I have no idea. And probably neither does he.
But the angry, violent language he uses. The desire for tanks and other military vehicles at his inauguration parade. Wanting a flyover of many aircraft at the inauguration. His reportedly belligerent language to the Mexican president. And now, this reportedly half-cocked mission.
His need to win everything. In his eyes, you either win, or you loose. There is no middle ground, no detente, no consensus, no compromise. And he has to win. All the time. Always.
It's like he *has* to throw his power around, regardless of the consequences. Everyone must be looking at him, praising him, agreeing with him. And if you don't, he will squash you. Whether you are a person, a corporation, or a country.
It's like he's a kid, playing at war. But with far more deadly results.
I hope I'm wrong; I really do.Rest assured it's not just you - this is very much how Trump comes across to me, too. And I also worry about war after his behavior of being in office such a short time - two weeks I think as of today. I hope we are both wrong! Rob
gimmethesimplelife
2-2-17, 5:49pm
Are you calling me a liar?
http://i.imgur.com/TcDzUV4.jpgThe man in the middle is you, Bae? Just curious as we have had some interesting back and forths over the years, no? Rob
The man in the middle is you, Bae? Just curious as we have had some interesting back and forths over the years, no? Rob
The man in the middle is John O. Brennan.
A method handed down to us from classical antiquity that allows us to criticize others while advancing no ideas of our own.
RE: Socratic Method
At times, others already answer so there is no need to elaborate.
I just asked a question. Why did you ask about security clearance? BTW -- I have no idea who the people are in the picture.
I asked about security clearances because, rather than typing out a long explanation of compartmented security, the procedures for it, who is in charge, and what the implications are, I thought you might find your concerns better addressed if you investigated those few leading questions yourself...
"Security clearance" isn't a phrase that has meaning outside of context, especially in the breathless way people are throwing it around in news/social media feeds, indicating to me that they don't even have a clue about the thing they are worried about.
I asked about security clearances because, rather than typing out a long explanation of compartmented security, the procedures for it, who is in charge, and what the implications are, I thought you might find your concerns better addressed if you investigated those few leading questions yourself...
"Security clearance" isn't a phrase that has meaning outside of context, especially in the breathless way people are throwing it around in news/social media feeds, indicating to me that they don't even have a clue about the thing they are worried about.
Kind of like "extreme vetting".
Kind of like "extreme vetting".
My understanding of "extreme vetting" is limited to trying to get my cat to swallow a pill.
My understanding of "extreme vetting" is limited to trying to get my cat to swallow a pill.
Ironically perhaps, we do that with what we call the burrito procedure. It involves the cat (rather more than she would like), a bath towel and a flat surface.
I've seen a lot of comparisons to the Nixon era. Then there was Watergate, now it's Moscowgate. The bickering with the press and demonstrations. Conflicts of interest with the Checker's talk and secret operation behind closed doors. I think Kissinger even endorsed Trump. One good thing that came of it was the counter-current music like CSN+Y, Richie Havens, Joan Baez, and I hesitate to add, Bob Dylan.
ToomuchStuff
2-3-17, 12:13am
Rest assured it's not just you - this is very much how Trump comes across to me, too. And I also worry about war after his behavior of being in office such a short time - two weeks I think as of today. I hope we are both wrong! Rob
Not sure if your worried, or advocating for a war, since your wanting succession to start.:confused:
I've seen a lot of comparisons to the Nixon era. Then there was Watergate, now it's Moscowgate. The bickering with the press and demonstrations. Conflicts of interest with the Checker's talk and secret operation behind closed doors. I think Kissinger even endorsed Trump. One good thing that came of it was the counter-current music like CSN+Y, Richie Havens, Joan Baez, and I hesitate to add, Bob Dylan.
I'm comforted by the idea that we can sing well-written protest songs while the country is immolated. :D:sick::(:help:
On the cat issue, we just crushed up her pill in little Caesar's dog food. Those pill pockets worked for her, too. If all else fails, get the pharmacy to do a liquid-- comes in tuna flavor, I kid you not.
Our little cat had thyroid issues and passed away this summer. She did well with the pill pockets.
What is "the Socratic Method"?
What is sophistry? :D
What is sophistry? :D
I believe it has something to do with reupholstering furniture.
gimmethesimplelife
2-3-17, 12:54pm
What is sophistry? :DBae has used this word before and it always sounds so classy and educated. Just a nice sounding word. I even looked it up a few years ago but forget now what the definition was. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-17, 1:11pm
I think Kissinger even endorsed Trump.
unlikely, the Kissinger's are good friends with the Clinton's, they go out to dinner together and stuff. But I don't think he formally endorsed anyone as far as I know.
What is sophistry? :D
I'll take the Nicomachean Ethics for 200, Alex.
I'll take the Nicomachean Ethics for 200, Alex.
Hahaha! I had to look that up, and I'm still in the dark. But thanks for the belly laugh...
What is sophistry? :D
Socrates was in fact a leading critic of the Sophists...
Hahaha! I had to look that up, and I'm still in the dark. But thanks for the belly laugh...
This thread made me think of a long-ago paper about Aristotle's critique of the sophists reducing philosophy to mere rhetoric. If we were to really consider some of the clutter in our memories, it would probably resemble an episode of Hoarders.
My mind is inarguably as cluttered as any hoarder's digs.
I think of my memory as a shape sorter or a Magic 8 Ball--I put in a request for data,, something up there whirs a bit and delivers a factoid. Nothing linear about it.
But at least I still have a memory, for which I am eternally grateful!
But at least I still have a memory, for which I am eternally grateful!
Maybe, but I'm a little concerned that my garage is tidier than my brain.
Maybe, but I'm a little concerned that my garage is tidier than my brain.
My wife and I were just mulling over the idea of building a second garage, so we could put cars in it. She at one point in the discussion proposed simply cleaning out the one we already have, but that's just crazy talk. Right?
Teacher Terry
2-3-17, 4:18pm
:~)
:~)
+1 :~)
Yup, crazy talk.
I asked about security clearances because, rather than typing out a long explanation of compartmented security, the procedures for it, who is in charge, and what the implications are, I thought you might find your concerns better addressed if you investigated those few leading questions yourself...
"Security clearance" isn't a phrase that has meaning outside of context, especially in the breathless way people are throwing it around in news/social media feeds, indicating to me that they don't even have a clue about the thing they are worried about.
Quite arrogant, aren't you? I have been through a security clearance and do NOT need it explained to me. What gives you this superior attitude? Who the Hell are you or think you are?
My main memory of my security clearance is of all the phone calls I got from people I knew letting me know "They're asking about you, but don't worry, I assured them your insanity was manageble with medication". Very helpful. I also remember having to swear that I wasn't a spy.
Who the Hell are you or think you are?
Mētis.
Miss Cellane
2-3-17, 5:00pm
My mind is inarguably as cluttered as any hoarder's digs.
I think of my memory as a shape sorter or a Magic 8 Ball--I put in a request for data,, something up there whirs a bit and delivers a factoid. Nothing linear about it.
But at least I still have a memory, for which I am eternally grateful!
I just wish that instead of remembering a phone number from the house l lived in in 1972, my brain could remember what my boss asked me to do this morning. My poor brain is stuffed with trivia to the point it can't remember the really necessary things sometimes.
Mētis.
The headache of the gods?
The headache of the gods?
And, to the rest of us.
And, to the rest of us.
Please, continue with the personal attacks...
bae, you really do bait people, and then get upset when they react to your arrogance. You have a lot to offer. I just wish you would offer it differently.
Bae, thank you for the insights you share with us. I am actually honored that you bother to do so.
I don't know much about security clearances--the only one I ever had was to teach on a Marine base, and I know that was pretty mild. I am always grateful when you share knowledge with us, and thank you for taking the time to do that.
Bae, thank you for the insights you share with us. I am actually honored that you bother to do so.
I don't know much about security clearances--the only one I ever had was to teach on a Marine base, and I know that was pretty mild. I am always grateful when you share knowledge with us, and thank you for taking the time to do so.
Bae, thank you for the insights you share with us. I am actually honored that you bother to do so.
I don't know much about security clearances--the only one I ever had was to teach on a Marine base, and I know that was pretty mild. I am always grateful when you share knowledge with us, and thank you for taking the time to do that.
He did not share any information... only asked questions, that supposedly, he knew the answers to. Why are you honored. Who is he? Seems like a mortal ... like the rest of us. ... and he does enjoy trolling.
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