View Full Version : Rep and Dem indivisible groups
flowerseverywhere
2-22-17, 10:59am
Where I live it is about 30% split dem/rep/ind. Trump won our area, I think largely because the republican base was far more organized and vocal, and there was a widespread distaste for Hillary.
Anyway, two local indivisible groups, one started by a Repub group and one started by dems, are going to the local congressional town hall. They are meeting in the same place, basically have the same issues, and will march to the office together. Both are encouraging respectfulness and mature discourse. Lots of us independents are tagging along with either. Because we are all Americans.
The main issues are replacing the ACA before repeal, immigration reform (the right way, which should have been done all along) , women's access to reproductive health care. One of the fears both groups voice is many women are poorer than men, and need the services given through the ACA and planned parenthood. Not necessarily abortion, mind you, but birth control, mammograms, cancers screenings and so on. Should make for an interesting day.
There is just so much name calling and hate out there. I truly hope we can salvage the best of both major parties and move forward.
iris lilies
2-22-17, 12:05pm
Hey OP, I didnt even know there ARE Republican
indivisible groups! Interesting.
Teacher Terry
2-22-17, 12:30pm
Working together is great! I joined our local group too.
It will be interesting to see if the left's town hall outrage, civil or not, can be translated into Tea Party style political influence. The Tea Partiers seemed to primarily oppose a system they saw saw as being run by an elite for the benefit of an elite, and against the tottering jenga tower of the ACA, with it's mandates, waivers and ill-planned design. This ultimately helped transfer a huge amount of power at all levels of government. The left seems almost completely fixated on one person. What happens when that one person is removed from the scene? There also seem to be many tribes within the "resistance" looking for many different things from government that government may be ill-equipped to provide. It will be interesting to see if they can sustain anything like a united front.
It would be very encouraging if these groups worked out.
ApatheticNoMore
2-22-17, 1:23pm
What is immigration reform the right way? Maybe something like amnesty for those that are already here, and enforcing it via employers and something like a national id card afterward? It's such a contentious issue that good luck with ever getting any consensus on immigration.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-17, 4:29pm
Hey OP, I didnt even know there ARE Republican
indivisible groups! Interesting.
there are so many people who cannot relate to,the far left or far right. Middle of the road Or more moderates of their party. Some don't like Trumps manner, but do like republican policies overall. And many are fearful of health insurance going away before a good plan is in place (like they said they had for what, seven years? ) and the rich getting richer in the meantime.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-17, 4:31pm
It will be interesting to see if the left's town hall outrage, civil or not, can be translated into Tea Party style political influence. The Tea Partiers seemed to primarily oppose a system they saw saw as being run by an elite for the benefit of an elite, and against the tottering jenga tower of the ACA, with it's mandates, waivers and ill-planned design. This ultimately helped transfer a huge amount of power at all levels of government. The left seems almost completely fixated on one person. What happens when that one person is removed from the scene? There also seem to be many tribes within the "resistance" looking for many different things from government that government may be ill-equipped to provide. It will be interesting to see if they can sustain anything like a united front.
The ones causing themoutrage on age on both sides are the minority. Labels are not doing any help. What about Americans
flowerseverywhere
2-22-17, 4:36pm
What is immigration reform the right way? Maybe something like amnesty for those that are already here, and enforcing it via employers and something like a national id card afterward? It's such a contentious issue that good luck with ever getting any consensus on immigration.
thought out and and well planned with thoughtful input from all sides. You do realize some of the people who will be deported have been here through many administrations and congresses. We have done a great disfavor by not dealing with it. People who manage to sneak in get preference over those who try legally? Have a baby and you get to stay? I think there is so much to it there is no easy solution. I fear many law abiding people who have worked in fields and meat packing houses, paid their bills, paid taxes will get caught up in all this due to parking ticket like offenses.
I fear many law abiding people who have worked in fields and meat packing houses, paid their bills, paid taxes will get caught up in all this due to parking ticket like offenses.More likely for being in the country illegally.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-17, 5:43pm
More likely for being in the country illegally.
do you think being in the country illegally regardless of how you got here (i.e. Young dreamers) is enough to deport? This seems to be a matter of huge contention for people who have lived here for many years. I certainly don't know what the answer is.
The ones causing themoutrage on age on both sides are the minority. Labels are not doing any help. What about Americans
For good or ill, history is made by active minorities. In an era of identity politics, I don't see how any amount of goodwill will eliminate "labels".
I don't think you can pretend there is some actual solution on issues like Obamacare that will result in everyone being happy. For everyone receiving a benefit, there will be someone else getting the bill. As Thomas Sowell said, "There are no solutions. Only trade-offs".
Referring to someone as a "law-abiding illegal immigrant" strikes me as a contradictrion in terms.
do you think being in the country illegally regardless of how you got here (i.e. Young dreamers) is enough to deport? This seems to be a matter of huge contention for people who have lived here for many years. I certainly don't know what the answer is.If there are no consequences to illegal actions there is no justice. As a sovereign nation , we either need to enforce immigration law or make ourselves a sanctuary country open to any and all, however we may find that one of those options is unsustainable.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-17, 10:35pm
If there are no consequences to illegal actions there is no justice. As a sovereign nation , we either need to enforce immigration law or make ourselves a sanctuary country open to any and all, however we may find that one of those options is unsustainable.
your and LDAHL's comments reflect what I see all over this country. I agree we have laws and enforcing them is something few of us can disagree with. I just wonder what these people are going to do that were brought here as children or who,have lived here without harassment for ten or twenty years. What will these people do when they are returned to a country they don't know. Although I am an atheist, I feel like asking "what would Jesus do" Suddenly enforcing laws after years and years of letting ndocumented people attend school, live in communities and so has a huge impact on lives. We need to enforce laws but these are real live human beings. Our lack of enforcing laws has a huge impact on these people.
your and LDAHL's comments reflect what I see all over this country. I agree we have laws and enforcing them is something few of us can disagree with. I just wonder what these people are going to do that were brought here as children or who,have lived here without harassment for ten or twenty years. What will these people do when they are returned to a country they don't know. Although I am an atheist, I feel like asking "what would Jesus do" Suddenly enforcing laws after years and years of letting ndocumented people attend school, live in communities and so has a huge impact on lives. We need to enforce laws but these are real live human beings. Our lack of enforcing laws has a huge impact on these people.
There are a few significant differences between the Almighty and myself that preclude me from adopting the standard you suggest in anything but an aspirational mode.
I don’t disagree that justice should be tempered with mercy; but that doesn’t extend to pretending that infiltrating our borders and illegally taking up residence doesn’t amount to breaking our laws. There may be cases where we choose to treat certain lawbreakers leniently for various reasons, but that detracts nothing from the fact that we need to recognize that they are in fact in violation of the law. When a president decides not to enforce the law for political reasons, or when a city styles itself as a “sanctuary” for feel-good purposes, it ultimately erodes the rule of law in favor of arbitrary power. And that erosion is ultimately more dangerous than any immigrant bogeymen Mr. Trump could imagine.
iris lilies
2-23-17, 4:35pm
There are a few significant differences between the Almighty and myself that preclude me from adopting the standard you suggest in anything but an aspirational mode.
I don’t disagree that justice should be tempered with mercy; but that doesn’t extend to pretending that infiltrating our borders and illegally taking up residence doesn’t amount to breaking our laws. There may be cases where we choose to treat certain lawbreakers leniently for various reasons, but that detracts nothing from the fact that we need to recognize that they are in fact in violation of the law. When a president decides not to enforce the law for political reasons, or when a city styles itself as a “sanctuary” for feel-good purposes, it ultimately erodes the rule of law in favor of arbitrary power. And that erosion is ultimately more dangerous than any immigrant bogeymen Mr. Trump could imagine.
My city is now a "sanctuary city" for reproductive rights. Yes. This is an election year and our aldermen had to line up feel good, grandstanding legislation.
This ordinance just passed, and it is inclear exactly what it means in some instances with the CTholic Chirch here in town.
They are idiots.
They are idiots.
I'll bet they made some really stirring speeches though.
flowerseverywhere
2-23-17, 5:28pm
There are a few significant differences between the Almighty and myself that preclude me from adopting the standard you suggest in anything but an aspirational mode.
I don’t disagree that justice should be tempered with mercy; but that doesn’t extend to pretending that infiltrating our borders and illegally taking up residence doesn’t amount to breaking our laws. There may be cases where we choose to treat certain lawbreakers leniently for various reasons, but that detracts nothing from the fact that we need to recognize that they are in fact in violation of the law. When a president decides not to enforce the law for political reasons, or when a city styles itself as a “sanctuary” for feel-good purposes, it ultimately erodes the rule of law in favor of arbitrary power. And that erosion is ultimately more dangerous than any immigrant bogeymen Mr. Trump could imagine.
thanks for that explanation. It will make for a lot of short term difficulty. In these cases I can certainly see both sides.
As as an aside I have a friend who is president of their HOA. When she took the job she was given the advice to not make exceptions to the rules because it opens a can of worms and everyone is unhappy. I guess that is what has happened here. People turning a blind eye and now dealing with the consequences. I guess when you break the law there should be an expectation someday you will have to pay the piper. I guess a lot of people didn't think it would happen after so long or someone would grant amnesty.
flowerseverywhere
2-23-17, 5:30pm
My city is now a "sanctuary city" for reproductive rights. Yes. This is an election year and our aldermen had to line up feel good, grandstanding legislation.
This ordinance just passed, and it is inclear exactly what it means in some instances with the CTholic Chirch here in town.
They are idiots.
now that is interesting. Maybe they want to have a special abortion tax and raise revenue.
iris lilies
2-23-17, 8:07pm
now that is interesting. Maybe they want to have a special abortion tax and raise revenue.
Oh, there is NO WAY they will be taxing abortion. Oh my, even posing that idea to them would make their heads explode.
Some of the things this odd, ill conceived city law does is to forbid landlords from refusing to rent to abortion clinics. Because there are so many abortion clinics needing spaces around here. Not!
The new law forbids discrimination in employement and renting to those usng birth control and to those whose have had an abortion.
there must be something in the law about freedom of expression about all forms of reproduction because the Catholic
Church is concerned they may not be able to require their employees not promote birth control and in their work,with children and etc.
It is hard for me to explain what this law does because it is simply ridiculous.
It is hard for me to explain what this law does because it is simply ridiculous.
You may think you live in the most idiotic city in the country, but with all due respect, Chicago is moving to name a street for that convicted FALN terrorist that Obama released from prison in his last days.
http://chicago.suntimes.com/opinion/opinion-faln-killed-my-father-dont-name-street-for-its-leader/
Teacher Terry
2-24-17, 1:48pm
California is very worried about how they will pick their crops, etc if we deport too many immigrants. They count on these people as the stats show that Americans that apply for these jobs usually quit within a few days. Many restaurant workers are also illegals. There is a huge difference between sending back real criminals and people that they are sending back now. Using someone's SS # to get a job is not the same as a rapist, murderer, etc. We will be ripping families apart and our businesses that depend on them for workers will suffer. It makes me sick.
There is a huge difference between sending back real criminals and people that they are sending back now. Using someone's SS # to get a job is not the same as a rapist, murderer, etc. .
I completely disagree. Identify theft is a criminal act that has serious consequences. Someone used my social security number and it meant that a job I needed a security clearance for was denied to me until I could prove this person was not me. It affected my ability to get a mortgage, and it caused a tax audit.
Had I not been able to show that I was not in those places during those times, then I could have been without a job and homeless.
That is a serious criminal act, with real victims. I think someone stealing another person's social security number should be deported.
Teacher Terry
2-24-17, 2:02pm
Well you will be happy to know that they deported that dangerous criminal and now her 3 little kids don't have a mom.
Well you will be happy to know that they deported that dangerous criminal and now her 3 little kids don't have a mom.Why? Will her home country not accept them?
I guess I don't understand why you are mockingly calling someone a "dangerous criminal" when yes, identify theft can destroy lives. It's hardly a victimless crime. And surely her children will go with her back to her homeland, as she would not want to be separated from them.
If you choose to engage in criminal acts against others, then you are risking being separated from your children. Better to have them with you in your homeland than go to prison and have them separated from you here in America.
Where is this woman's sense of responsibility to her children? Most of us try to obey the law so that we will be there to take care of our children.
By this logic, if someone who was born here steals other people's identities and harms them, then you would be against sending them to prison, which is separating them from their children and leaving the poor kids without a mom.
I'm not following. This happens all the time, and again, it's one of biggest incentives to obeying the law and not harming others, so you can keep your family intact.
Teacher Terry
2-24-17, 2:51pm
She was convicted and had paid for her crime. She was required to report to ICE yearly which she had done for years. This time they arrested and deported her. She is going back to a country she has not lived in for many years with no job, no home, no where to go, etc so no she did not take her kids who are US citizens.
Where is this woman's sense of responsibility to her children? Most of us try to obey the law so that we will be there to take care of our children.
.
Perhaps she felt that what she did was the least bad option for taking care of her children. Not everyone has good choices available to them.
Perhaps she felt that what she did was the least bad option for taking care of her children. Not everyone has good choices available to them.
No doubt.
Identity theft is in no way a victimless crime. That was what I was really trying to say.
I guess I do not believe that is someone is here illegally and then they commit a crime that hurts someone, they should be allowed to stay here. I think it is a difference in viewpoint. There are many people working hard to become citizens legally--allowing someone who breaks a law as serious as identity theft, that has no respect for the rights of others, who is willing to hurt other people--I don't think it's right that they get to stay.
Obviously, others, like Teacher Terry, feel differently.
Wouldn't just issuing guest worker cards to all the people just trying to earn an honest living be the easiest way to deal with this "problem?" We have work for them to do, they pay taxes, they contribute to the economy, so I'd say deport the criminal element, issue ID cards to the rest, and be done with it. Of course, that doesn't silence the xenophobes, but you can't please everybody.
Teacher Terry
2-24-17, 5:13pm
I like Jane's plan. People will always sneak over the border if they can't feed their families. I understand that you were hurt by identity theft but I feel a greater compassion for people in truly desperate circumstances. It is probably why I spent my career in human services and now teach SW students.
Wouldn't just issuing guest worker cards to all the people just trying to earn an honest living be the easiest way to deal with this "problem?" We have work for them to do, they pay taxes, they contribute to the economy, so I'd say deport the criminal element, issue ID cards to the rest, and be done with it. Of course, that doesn't silence the xenophobes, but you can't please everybody.Or even try.
Wouldn't just issuing guest worker cards to all the people just trying to earn an honest living be the easiest way to deal with this "problem?" We have work for them to do, they pay taxes, they contribute to the economy, so I'd say deport the criminal element, issue ID cards to the rest, and be done with it. Of course, that doesn't silence the xenophobes, but you can't please everybody.
I would go one step further, and in addition to allowing people who register to work here on a temporary basis would use system capabilities we already have to prevent undocumented workers from being employed in the first place. If it's more difficult or impossible to get work after coming here illegally, you remove a major incentive to break our laws.
flowerseverywhere
2-24-17, 9:40pm
Went to our congressman's open house. He spoke but no one could hear him then he walked through the crowd talking to people. I disagree with the man but told him he had a lot of courage and thanked him for listening. About 75 of us walked to his office, where there is limited parking, many more met us there. There were about ten Trump supporters standing in front of the door he was to come out of with their arms folded across their chest blocking us. It was foolish, because he just came out and started to speak, then walked past them into,the crowd. What did they think a bunch of old ladies and men were going to do?
So so I think it went well, he was not like no show Marco Rubio, the coward who said he would not face hostile crowds. There was a group who had a big banner "republicans against Trump". There was some rude shouting on both sides. Interesting there was a local pastor who told us he came out in support after eight years of that "abomination "Obama. Now this congressman believes no adult should get any help,with medical costs, no Medicaid for adults at all (like stuff has no possibility of ever happening to get you in a pickle and you might need temporary help). He does not believe in free lunch for kids but also does not believe in funding planned parenthood for birth control and routine women care. Also, every illegal, regardless of how long they have been here should be out. How can a pastor think these views are Christian? I don't get it.
I am am glad I went. Groups showing up all over the country, making phone calls and so on can slowly chip away to break down these very far right views.
Oh, the crowd was average age sixties, only a few people of color out of several hundred.
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