"Feeling safe"

[Ultralight]

Something interesting happened in my diversity in social work class.

A guest speaker came to the class to talk about "faith-based" social services. In part of her presentation she talked about how social work ethics lined up with Christianity. She used these types of lines from the Book of Matthew.

"I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you took care of me. I was in prison, and you visited me." (25:36)

I listened very politely to her and I respectfully took part in the group activities she had. No problem!

The during the Q&A part I asked about the book of Matthew and social work ethics I said: "25:36 is spot on, but what about Matthew 10:34?"

Then I quoted the verse aloud:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

The poor woman looked like a deer in headlights, as did a few of my classmates. I added: "That does not seem to jive with social work ethics to me."

Then a gay Jewish man in class mentioned how Christians have often tried to prevent gays from getting their rights, he also mentioned the holocaust. A woman who self-identifies as Native American then said she and her people had horrible experiences as a result of Christianity.

At this point, a 40 something black woman had an outburst. She called me out for making atheistic comments in class and other classes she had with me, she called out the Native woman and the gay Jew. She was not insulting us or attacking us. She was using us as examples in her rather inarticulate Christian apologetics about how Jesus wants her to love everyone even though she believes the Bible as a whole is literally true, both Old and New Testaments. She expressed concern that we (the atheist, the Native, and the gay Jew) would not be treating Christian clients with the same care in our eventual social work practice.

Anyway, we all briefly responded to her and that was really the end of the discussion. The professor reigned us in and moved us along.

But afterward the professor sent me (and presumably the Native and the gay Jew) an email saying she thought the discussion was inappropriate and she wanted to make sure we still "felt safe."

This boggles my mind. We are so, so incredibly safe in the classroom. We are under no danger whatsoever.

Anyway, I said I thought the conversation was fine -- we all remained civil, we all got the chance to respond, we talked about tough issues and complex ideas. I call this a pretty good day in academe. And I told her I thought the class was excellent and that she handled it all well (she has been a great prof!).

But I get the feeling me being okay with such a discussion did not sit well with her.

[razz]

She was doing her job and making sure that you were comfortable on being singled out, nothing more. Don't make it into something.

[Chicken lady]

Many people do not have the self confidence or personality to easily weather a rant such as that directed at them. My twenty y.o. places huge value on being liked and getting along with people (I definitely did not teach her that, it is simply how she is wired.) She would have been reduced to a sobbing mess in your place. Although, she likely would not have spoken up, in anticipation of being reduced to a sobbing mess.

it is possible that the others who spoke up felt comfortable doing so only because you had already created an opening.

from your description, it doesn't sound like you "all remained civil" and I don't think you should be ok with "calling out" and "inarticulate" "outbursts" in an academic discussion.

the free exchange of ideas is important, and it is also important that those with thicker skin not dominate the conversation because others are afraid of being emotionally embarrassed, in fact, those fearful voices may care more deeply and have even thought their positions through more carefully. It is the responsibility of the stronge voices to be sure the more shy and introverted ones are heard.

it is possible that one of your fellow dissenters went home thinking "I'll never do that again!" Or that someone else left thinking "I'm glad I didn't speak up!"

[CathyA]

Hmmmm.....I would have been uncomfortable with the guest speaker lining social work up with Christianity too. Reminds me of when my kids were in school. If I objected to something like letting young kids see inappropriate films, or if they were getting awards for having a "contest" to collect food for the poor (you shouldn't be rewarded for doing that), I was thought of as being one of the overly-religious types. One time a woman said to me (I'm an atheist), "You can tell by your children that you are a good Christian". That really bothered me. Why is it that Christians are the only people who are thought to have ethics or a sense of morals?
Anyhow........like I said, your guest speaker's comments would have bothered me too, and I would have probably commented to her also.

As to her asking if you felt safe.............it was just her way of asking if you felt okay by speaking out. I think discussion is a good thing.

[Chicken lady]

CathyA, I try to remember that when Christians say things like that they are trying to compliment me. Doesn't mean I don't ever correct them. Also, I think it is human nature to want to include people we see as doing positive things in "our" group. (I often experience the opposite of this when I see someone advocating something I believe in a way I disagree with "please don't be on my side")

my college roomate's mom once went well out of her way to help a stranded motorist. When the woman said "it's very Christian if you to do this!" She replied "No, it's very Jewish of me. But it's nice of you to let me know you appreciate the help."

[Ultralight]

She was doing her job and making sure that you were comfortable on being singled out, nothing more. Don't make it into something.It actually is something. Here is why: It is perilous to conflate comfort with safety.

[Chicken lady]

UA, I think for you there is a huge difference between emotional safety and physical safety because you seem to be emotionally resilient and strong.

there are other people who would rather have their arm broken than be reduced to tears in public, who could have been reduced to tears by that conversation. And your professor wants them to feel safe to speak up.

also, there is not as big a difference between emotional and physical safety as you may think. More college students commit suicide because they are emotionally battered than die of assault. Therefor, while you may be very physically safe on campus, emotional safety is currently a bigger issue.

this does not mean that we need to stop disagreement, it means that we need to teach people how to handle it (just like we need to teach them how to drive) and conduct it in a controlled an civil manner (stop for traffic lights, yield to pedestrians, slow down on curves.)

a given amount of blood blood loss may be "uncomfortable" (weakness, dizziness) for you, and "unsafe" for someone else (a very small anemic person say).

[LDAHL]

If someone reacts to having their premises challenged as a form of assault they need to be protected from, then they probably aren't suited for a career in social work. In fact, they probably couldn't function in any capacity that required developing, defending or implementing their ideas.

One of the things I am most grateful for in my life are the teachers, drill instructors, clergy, bosses and friends who made me feel "unsafe" in everything from my smugly held assumptions to my physical comfort.

If we are sending kids into the world thinking they can appeal to some authority who will protect them from thoughts or attitudes they find unsettling, then we are harming them in the cruelest way possible.

[creaker]

I get a bit annoyed when people play both sides of this - insisting on a safe space where their views won't be challenged - but then using a lack of being challenged as affirmation that their view is the "correct" one. Or worse insisting on being given a safe space as a place they can attack from.

[Chicken lady]

I want to be clear that I am not saying that people's views should not be challenged. I'm a big fan of challenging views! I am not a big fan of personal attacks. All I have to go on about the situation is what UA gave me, which is:

At this point, a 40 something black woman had an outburst. She called me out for making atheistic comments in class and other classes she had with me, she called out the Native woman and the gay Jew. She was not insulting us or attacking us. She was using us as examples in her rather inarticulate Christian apologetics about how Jesus wants her to love everyone even though she believes the Bible as a whole is literally true, both Old and New Testaments. She expressed concern that we (the atheist, the Native, and the gay Jew) would not be treating Christian clients with the same care in our eventual social work practice.


I see that he says " she was not insulting us or attacking us. However, he also uses the emotionally charged words "called out" and "outburst".

had he written:

"At this point, a 40 something black woman [objected to me] making atheistic comments in class and other classes she had with me, she [objected to statements made by] the Native woman and the gay Jew. She was not insulting us or attacking us. She was using us as examples in her rather inarticulate Christian apologetics about how Jesus wants her to love everyone even though she believes the Bible as a whole is literally true, both Old and New Testaments. She expressed concern that we (the atheist, the Native, and the gay Jew) would not be treating Christian clients with the same care in our eventual social work practice."

I would probably ably be equally confused as to why the professor felt a need to follow up. Had he written:

"At this point, a 40 something black woman had an outburst. She called me out for making atheistic comments in class and other classes she had with me, she called out the Native woman and the gay Jew. [...]She was using us as examples in her rather inarticulate Christian apologetics about how Jesus wants her to love everyone even though she believes the Bible as a whole is literally true, both Old and New Testaments. She [claimed] that we (the atheist, the Native, and the gay Jew) would not be treating Christian clients with the same care in our eventual social work practice.

I would have been more concerned about the discourse in his classroom.

how a message is presented us often as important as the message itself.

[LDAHL]

how a message is presented us often as important as the message itself.


But the real problem in this case seems to be how a message is received.

While I think civility is important, it's probably true that there is no way to present an idea that someone will not decide to take offense to, especially in our hypersensitive age. There seem to be some bright people devoting themselves to detecting "microaggressions" and "implicit bias" on the part of even the most well-meaning. Is there anything short of speech control that will leave them feeing safe? I'm not inclined to give them the power to set the terms of discourse.

Given a choice between limiting ourselves to some list of approved platitudes and running the risk of hurt feelings, I'm of the opinion we're better off with the hurt feelings.

[razz]

It actually is something. Here is why: It is perilous to conflate comfort with safety.

UL, in a social work setting which you supposedly are being prepared to work in, I can assure you that comfort is a huge part of feeling safe. The prof was demonstrating to each member and individually that expressing oneself freely can be comfortable and safe.

[Zoe Girl]

One of the things I am most grateful for in my life are the teachers, drill instructors, clergy, bosses and friends who made me feel "unsafe" in everything from my smugly held assumptions to my physical comfort.


I had a different experience, when I challenged I was often shut down. Totally, completely, proven that others had control and my basic needs would not be met. I am not sure how the 'unsafe' worked for you but I can't imagine wanting to go back to being this silenced, humiliated, kid or teen again. I am guessing that this unsafe for you still had some elements of being basically cared for or valued, there is so much difference possible here. So it is VERY much how we work with these different or challenging ideas. Do we actually talk to youth or do make our statement and leave them to sort it out alone? Do we notice when a person shrinks into themselves, stops engaging, shows signs of a serious problem in the middle of this or do we push on through. Do we use our best communication skills to have these talks and bring in voices, deep thoughts, etc? In college a large part of my degree was in philosophy so I do know how to disagree and argue a point and go deeply into things, I want people to learn that instead of the art of yelling louder or making more statements designed to just cause reactions.

[Tammy]

College professors are under much pressure to be sure no one is triggered. Their jobs are at stake. She probably didn't have a choice but to email you. I agree it's become ridiculous.

As an aside - if people would read the whole bible they would see that you can make it say anything. But they only want to believe that it's a book about love. It frustrates the hell out of me. I know the thing backwards and forwards in many versions. There's all kinds of problems with thinking it's all about love.

[Tybee]

Zoe, I like your post a lot, and I think you are on to several truths here. One of the things you mention is, "I want people to learn that instead of the art of yelling louder or making more statements designed to just cause reactions."
I think that some people like to act as provocateurs, and start chaos. I think it is a personality type. I think that it leads to disastrous social contretemps.
I think also that many women were silenced as you describe, silenced, humiliated, and laughed at. I know I was. Some people seem to feel the need to dominate others by what they see as their superior intelligence, insights, or wisdom. Kind of a perennial debate club approach. There is much of this on internet forums, which is why many people drift away from forums, as they find this sort of thing unpleasant.

[ToomuchStuff]

The heck with how you "feel", is she forming a Spanish Inquisition? Because it sounds like she didn't "feel" safe, since there were other viewpoints/belief systems, and is she apt to go all holy war, the way medieval Christians did.
Is this similar to how the TSA takes liquids, toothpaste, etc. and puts in in containers as potentially explosive, yet doesn't blow it up. (feel verses reality)

[LDAHL]

I had a different experience, when I challenged I was often shut down. Totally, completely, proven that others had control and my basic needs would not be met. I am not sure how the 'unsafe' worked for you but I can't imagine wanting to go back to being this silenced, humiliated, kid or teen again. I am guessing that this unsafe for you still had some elements of being basically cared for or valued, there is so much difference possible here. So it is VERY much how we work with these different or challenging ideas. Do we actually talk to youth or do make our statement and leave them to sort it out alone? Do we notice when a person shrinks into themselves, stops engaging, shows signs of a serious problem in the middle of this or do we push on through. Do we use our best communication skills to have these talks and bring in voices, deep thoughts, etc? In college a large part of my degree was in philosophy so I do know how to disagree and argue a point and go deeply into things, I want people to learn that instead of the art of yelling louder or making more statements designed to just cause reactions.

I'm not so much grateful for the humiliation and discomfort it involved. I'm grateful for learning how to survive, function and (perhaps arguably) thrive in environments where my well-being was inconsequential to those around me. The coach who made me climb the stinking rope, the colonel whose "constructive criticism" involved yelling at me in such close proximity I had to wipe his spittle off my glasses, the committee probing my proposal for weaknesses all served to make me a better version of myself.

If I had gone through life expecting to be valued and cared for, shrinking from every provocation, I doubt it would have been a very wothwhile existence.

[Chicken lady]

But LDAHL, were you valued and cared for? Not necessarily in that situation, but in general.

i had a conversation with a friend once where she described sobbing and pleading and banging on the door when her mother locked her out while she was out on a date with an "objectionable" choice. I said "I would have just gotten back in the car and left with him." And she said "yes, but you knew somebody wanted you to come home."

[Teacher Terry]

I find it ridiculous that the prof invited someone to speak about how social work is related to Christianity and also her email to you. Part of going to college is to hear different viewpoints and yes to disagree. As a former social worker if people reduce you to a puddle of tears and you don't toughen up you will not make it. I was shocked by the things i saw, heard etc when I first was in the field. Some people quit the first year. I learned to become much more assertive. At one point when I was doing a unpaid SW internship the head guy was a jerk and people were quitting all the time. I was supposed to be there for 1 1/2 years but after a semester of being yelled at and belittled I started crying. I finished the semester and then changed internships. Bad enough to be yelled at if they are paying you but I wasn't getting paid. That experience got me to advocate for myself as you could be thrown out of the program after signing a contract and not going back. Also it is not true that you have to experience something personally in order to help people with the issue. I always was sensitive but learned to toughen up somewhat due to things that happened to me and was to my benefit even though it was uncomfortable at the time. YOu learn to face things instead of run away.

[Zoe Girl]

I'm not so much grateful for the humiliation and discomfort it involved. I'm grateful for learning how to survive, function and (perhaps arguably) thrive in environments where my well-being was inconsequential to those around me. .

I think the key is that you did end up surviving, functioning and thriving. I may be here and look pretty good but it was very difficult. Surviving and recovering from a narcissistic relationship is a long road. So in many ways I exist despite a lot of experience that was about showing I was only valued in how I supported my abuser, there is this way that you can get torn down verbally that shrinks you into a place you no longer want to exist, Where I could not imagine any sort of relief. That still gets triggered.

I am struggling with some work situations right now where someone acted in a similar manner and I stood up and am spending a couple days going through h** again. Someone asking if I am okay would just be very healing and refreshing, it would mean a lot. In an intellectual sense I know how many people I take care of so being nice to me has a good return on the investment.

BTW I am totally going to regret this but staying totally closed off from people is worse right now than exposing too much.

[Ultralight]

When you are an adult, I think self-confidence is a DIY project.

[Chicken lady]

And your community is Home Depot (we can help)

[Ultralight]

And your community is Home Depot (we can help) Explain...

[Chicken lady]

It's Home Depot's slogan "you can do it, we can help."

some people reach adulthood with the "tools" and strength they need to fix their own issues. Other people need help in the form of support, information, and "tools" from others when they try to address their issues.

[Zoe Girl]

I think that sounds good? Still feeling kinda rotten for not being the one who may need a tool or support or just something.

[iris lilies]

I think that sounds good? Still feeling kinda rotten for not being the one who may need a tool or support or just something.

The problem is, as I see it, viewing all the people as all the tools in the tool shed. When you need drilling, for instance (umm get your mind out of the gutter, this is a metaphor! haha) , you go to a drill. But all of the people, the wrenches and the hammers and the screwdrivers and the measuring tapes and the etc, aren't going to work for you if you need to be drilled. Only a drill works.

All of the people cant be all of the support all of the time.

[Zoe Girl]

IL that makes sense. I am looking for relationships and places that 'flow' better rather than pushing what is not working. So I am dropping one person that is a teacher at my school, we have lots in common, I like her, but she has not followed through on any plans to even meet for coffee since we met in September. Being me I did mention this when she said I did not know what she was going through currently. I just responded that I had some idea but I was waiting to see if she wanted to meet outside of work. Pretty simple but I am finding it moderately painful to drop the idea we could be friends.

I usually have a clear idea of what may do the trick to give me some energy or healing or whatever I need, and I am getting better and stronger when that does not happen. Lotsa meditation, like mega work,

[ToomuchStuff]

The problem is, as I see it, viewing all the people as all the tools in the tool shed. When you need drilling, for instance (umm get your mind out of the gutter, this is a metaphor! haha) , you go to a drill. But all of the people, the wrenches and the hammers and the screwdrivers and the measuring tapes and the etc, aren't going to work for you if you need to be drilled. Only a drill works.

All of the people cant be all of the support all of the time.

Some people are just tools!
A saying I read on a garage forum is apt:
Tools don't make the mechanic, they make the mechanic's job, easier.

[Chicken lady]

Yes, all that.

sometimes when dh is working on a job he rents or borrows (or buys) some really cool new tool that I didn't even know existed. Also, he spends a lot of time watching "how to's on YouTube - (instead of asking st Home Depot)

meditation might be one of those "cool new tools" that zoe girl didn't know about at 18. But now it is a key part of her diy Zoe girl project.

so, back to the original issue - it is the professors role (in the nature of being a teacher if not the written or understood job description) to be sure the students have the tools they need and are using them correctly.