View Full Version : If they don't pass the new health care plan today.................
Trump is taking his toys and going home.
What a curious demand..........that the House approve this new plan today, or he's keeping the ACA forever (as punishment, I guess).
Geez. I'm still in disbelief that he's our president....
Chicken lady
3-24-17, 11:46am
Wouldn't that be nice - the republicans have 4 years to work on their plan slowly and carefully, and markets stabilize because they know exactly what to expect.
unfortunately, it's highly unlikely anyone will believe him.
It is beyond is power as President to "keep the ACA forever". Such a statement from him indicates he simply d9esn't know how our system of government works.
If Congress agreed upon a replacement or modification to the ACA, all he could do is veto their legislation, which they could override if they had enough votes.
the republicans have 4 years to work on their plan slowly and carefully,
Well they've already had 7 years.
iris lilies
3-24-17, 1:07pm
It is beyond is power as President to "keep the ACA forever". Such a statement from him indicates he simply d9esn't know how our system of government works.
If Congress agreed upon a replacement or modification to the ACA, all he could do is veto their legislation, which they could override if they had enough votes.
But they dont. Which is why he may keep the ACA forever. I think he is correct in that.
One discussion point I found interesting from NPR news stories yesterday: One faction of the House Republicans wants to remove the list of Essential Items required in policies. Another faction want to keep the actual list, and there is tug of war over that. But here is what I found interesting, that the revised bill could declare there to be essential health services fo be covered without naming them. Then , later, the Dept of Health and Human Services would determine that list by regulatin.
Ths is, apparently, Paul Ryan's wish.
Theoretically I like the idea of Congressional bills being less specific, and regulartory activity definng the details.
But they dont. Which is why he may keep the ACA forever. I think he is correct in that.
One discussion point I found interesting from NPR news stories yesterday:
Well, at least it sounds like they are reading it this time before voting on it :-)
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 1:21pm
All I can say is I hope, hope, hope, that the saner of the GOP members vote against this plan showing a complete and total lack of respect towards human rights, let alone decency. Also the Trumpcare plan would make the United States less competitive in the sense that more smart people would be inclined to bail taking themselves (and their assets) to better countries in which human life is worth health care. There is no excuse for Trumpcare to pass, there really is not, even from a basic dollars and cents perspective. The 85006 is unanimous (sp?) on two thumbs down for Trumpcare. Not that this should matter to others not in the 85006, I get that.
My point is that like so many other issues in the United States, this one boils down to social class. Though even I believe that fear of American Health Care is moving upwards through the social classes, and the passage of TrumpCare would make some of the smarter folks still clinging to the middle class question the long term economic validity of retaining US citizenship. Like Martha Stewart says, this would be a good thing. But we'll see how the vote goes, I don't read the future and I don't claim to. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 1:23pm
Trump is taking his toys and going home.
What a curious demand..........that the House approve this new plan today, or he's keeping the ACA forever (as punishment, I guess).
Geez. I'm still in disbelief that he's our president....Cathy, you and me both on the disbelief that Trump is the POTUS. Did you hear of his way, way, way out there recent interview with Time magazine? It's Bizarro World Gold. Rob
PS About Trump taking his toys and going home - A). Can he just stay home until the 2020 elections? Please?, and B). Did anyone see the video of him yesterday play acting like he was driving a big rig? His faces and actions were truly bizarre, especially considering that his health care bill that would negatively impact the lives of so many Americans was being discussed while he was acting like a five year old. "Look, Mom, I'm play acting like a trucker! Cool!" - while his bill that would strip Americans of health insurance - a life and death issue of basic huge importance - was being discussed not far from where he was acting like a five year old. Just utterly amazing that the US as a country has sunk to this and that there are still people who support Trump.
iris lilies
3-24-17, 1:35pm
All I can say is I hope, hope, hope, that the saner of the GOP members vote against this plan showing a complete and total lack of respect towards human rights, let alone decency. Also the Trumpcare plan would make the United States less competitive in the sense that more smart people would be inclined to bail taking themselves (and their assets) to better countries in which human life is worth health care. There is no excuse for Trumpcare to pass, there really is not, even from a basic dollars and cents perspective. The 85006 is unanimous (sp?) on two thumbs down for Trumpcare. Not that this should matter to others not in the 85006, I get that.
My point is that like so many other issues in the United States, this one boils down to social class. Though even I believe that fear of American Health Care is moving upwards through the social classes, and the passage of TrumpCare would make some of the smarter folks still clinging to the middle class question the long term economic validity of retaining US citizenship. Like Martha Stewart says, this would be a good thing. But we'll see how the vote goes, I don't read the future and I don't claim to. Rob
So that you understand, the "saner" GOP members may be voting against it because it doesnt go far enough in doing that you would not like.
Please share that idea of fleeing with assets with the Congressional Budget Office, I will bet they didnt take that into account. Silly them.
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 1:45pm
So that you understand, the "saner" GOP members may be voting against it because it doesnt go far enough in doing that you would not like.
Please share that idea of fleeing with assets with the Congressional Budget Office, I will bet they didnt take that into account. Silly them.IL. with all due respect.....if you were to comparison shop US citizenship with that of the rest of the developed world with affordable access to health care as your criteria, you would find the United States down at the bottom of the barrel and sorely lacking. Don't believe me, please don't - do the research yourself and then let's discuss. If health care matters to you (?), much better deals can be had elsewhere. Brutal perhaps but yet very true and being in the lower social classes, all you are ever going to get out of me is how it really is. Another way of saying this is that I don't turn in my 85006 card for anybody.....but I digress.
Now, don't be surprised here, ok? I'm about to agree with your first point. Yes, some of the GOP believe Trumpcare does not go far enough, and if this is enough to keep Obamacare alive, so be it. There is time to vote them out of office and shame/humiliate them publicly after the vote. I will also say that some of the moderates of the GOP believe Trumpcare goes TOO FAR, and for these individuals voting against Trumpcare I truly have respect, even if they are Republicans. That is a brave thing to do and I tip my hat off to them while taking names as in the future I wish to show these folks some respect and some tolerance.....even if they do things I disapprove of down the road. What matters for basic human rights is that they vote NO now. Rob
IL. with all due respect.....if you were to comparison shop US citizenship with that of the rest of the developed world with affordable access to health care as your criteria, you would find the United States down at the bottom of the barrel and sorely lacking. Don't believe me, please don't - do the research yourself and then let's discuss..
If you did your research yourself, Rob, you'd find that you can't "bail with your assets" without consequence. They don't let you.
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 1:49pm
If you did your research yourself, Rob, you'd find that you can't "bail with your assets" without consequence. They don't let you.Anything you lose in assets, unless you are truly truly truly wealthy, you can easily make up with one serious illness elsewhere (based on savings on your health care bill in any other developed country). Yes, things really are that bad and yes, America has sunk to this. Rob
Anything you lose in assets, unless you are truly truly truly wealthy, you can easily make up with one serious illness. Yes, things really are that bad and yes, America has sunk to this. Rob
You don't quite understand, I think.
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 1:53pm
You don't quite understand, I think.Au contraire, I believe you don't understand. But as a moderator I don't want to get into this further with you.....no need for that, is there? Let's just see how this vote goes and go from there. From what I understand, Trumpcare is uniikely to pass and even if it does, it's an uphill battle all the way in the GOP controlled Senate after that. And Trump himself has said if it doesn't pass he's going to keep Obamacare as it stands and move on to other issues in his agenda. So we shall see, and the vote results we will have later today. Rob
I think if we were to see a mass out-migration of Americans seeking to extract more from other countries than is available at home, the effect on our national balance sheet would probably net out favorably. Sadly, I doubt that to be likely.
It seems to me at the moment, however, that Obamacare in all its ramshackle glory will be taking permanent root in our political soil.
Au contraire, I believe you don't understand. But as a moderator I don't want to get into this further with you.....no need for that, is there?
Come now, you don't get to hide behind "I'm a moderator".
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/877A
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 2:31pm
Come now, you don't get to hide behind "I'm a moderator".
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/877AI'm not hiding. I am merely behaving in a manner which befits the role, something l wish Mr. Trump would learn to do. At any rate, I'm going to agree to disagree with you and I'm leaving it at that. As I said, we don't even know the results of the vote yet, no? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 2:38pm
I think if we were to see a mass out-migration of Americans seeking to extract more from other countries than is available at home, the effect on our national balance sheet would probably net out favorably. Sadly, I doubt that to be likely.
It seems to me at the moment, however, that Obamacare in all its ramshackle glory will be taking permanent root in our political soil.Count me as grateful for ObamaCare taking political root - if it indeed does. I will admit that ObamaCare is not without it's flaws, posters such as IL do have some valid points regarding ObamaCare - I'll give them that. But charging older folks higher premiums when they are at the time of their lives when they desperately need to squirrel money away so as to not work until they drop dead? Not going to work, especially in a country in which wages for almost everyone are stagnant or decreasing. Not only is this inhumane, it's not politically bright as more and more people are quietly comparison shopping their citizenship as I started doing years ago....and finding the deficiencies in this citizenship compared to other first world countries. Make things even more unequal, don't be surprised for some pretty intense pushback, especially with more and more people not being worth any real stake in US society, but having access to the fact that they would be worth a better deal elsewhere. I see ObamaCare as a way for the government to stifle the justified anger of the masses a bit and to buy some time. Not wise to take that away - once again, as I said, with so many people not being worth a stake in this society. Rob
Ultralight
3-24-17, 2:41pm
It'll pass.
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 2:43pm
It'll pass.Maybe so, but it's said to be DOA in the Senate....We'll see is all I will say. Rob
I think this whole discussion may be premature if the insurance companies drop all the ACA plans (which they kept in separate accounts) due to the instability in the market and the government. It is close to happening already. There is nothing preventing them from not renewing in May.
Ultralight
3-24-17, 2:52pm
It'll pass the senate too.
I think this whole discussion may be premature if the insurance companies drop all the ACA plans (which they kept in separate accounts) due to the instability in the market and the government. It is close to happening already. There is nothing preventing them from not renewing in May.
I'm down to very few providers in my zip code, ACA or other, they've mostly all dropped out already. Apparently they are allowed to red-line entire counties.
Teacher Terry
3-24-17, 3:01pm
My crystal ball says it will not pass:~). My DIL is from Poland and she totally does not understand the US healthcare system. There everyone gets free healthcare and you can buy private health care very cheaply. That is because they have to compete with the free providers. My son and her take care of all their healthcare there. He can't get the free care but the private is super cheap. He had a shot in his ankle that costs 1k here and he paid 100.
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 3:31pm
I think this whole discussion may be premature if the insurance companies drop all the ACA plans (which they kept in separate accounts) due to the instability in the market and the government. It is close to happening already. There is nothing preventing them from not renewing in May.Bingo! I hadn't thought of this but this is a very valid point and I have to give you this. I guess what we do (here in Arizona anyway) is flee across the border for our health care (there really won't be any other choice at this point) and if there is government pushback on this (though I would hope the government wouldn't be this stupid?) begin the mass filings for political asylum elsewhere. I can't come up with any better solutions, America has sunk to this and I am not able to sugar coat it or deny it. Doing such would be disrespectful to basic common sense and my social class. For people not so close to the border, holy cow! This may be what brings America to complete and total chaos....I can totally see that happening.
One bright side about Obamacare surviving intact however is that most of the working poor in the 85006 (and many other zip codes in the states that approved Medicaid expansion) at the moment will have access to health care. That isn't going to help those who don't qualify for it, though....I get that. I guess the only real thing to do is to quit all discretionary spending and save every penny.....I don't see stability ahead for America with human life so blatantly meaning absolutely nothing unless one has lots and lots and lots of money. Save every penny. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 3:34pm
My crystal ball says it will not pass:~). My DIL is from Poland and she totally does not understand the US healthcare system. There everyone gets free healthcare and you can buy private health care very cheaply. That is because they have to compete with the free providers. My son and her take care of all their healthcare there. He can't get the free care but the private is super cheap. He had a shot in his ankle that costs 1k here and he paid 100.I have similar stories from my relatives in Austria who worry so much for me "living in that strange alien land" as they refer to the United States. Their words, not mine. Moving along from there.....
I hope your crystal ball is not dusty lol and that you are right about Trumpcare not passing. At least it's non passage buys us all some time. Rob
Not only is this inhumane, it's not politically bright as more and more people are quietly comparison shopping their citizenship as I started doing years ago....and finding the deficiencies in this citizenship compared to other first world countries.
So far, it seems more likely that people loudly announce their intention to leave without following through. If Amy Schumer or Lena Dunham or Bryan Cranston were as good as their word, I'd be more inclined to believe your assertion.
The Treasury department keeps track of the numbers of Americans formally renouncing their citizenship. It was 5,411 in 2016. While the government doesn't compile reasons, many are apparently Americans living and working abroad not wanting to pay US taxes on worldwide income. As bae says, officially cutting ties can be a fairly costly process.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/02/10/more-americans-give-up-citizenship-in-reverse-trump-bump/#4f92d0e4503d
Ultralight
3-24-17, 4:15pm
My crystal ball says it will not pass:~). My DIL is from Poland and she totally does not understand the US healthcare system. There everyone gets free healthcare and you can buy private health care very cheaply. That is because they have to compete with the free providers. My son and her take care of all their healthcare there. He can't get the free care but the private is super cheap. He had a shot in his ankle that costs 1k here and he paid 100. That is the price you pay for having no freedom!
Teacher Terry
3-24-17, 4:15pm
They just pulled the bill because they could not pass it and knew it.
Teacher Terry
3-24-17, 4:16pm
UL: Poland used to be communist but is no longer. They have freedom.
Ultralight
3-24-17, 4:17pm
UL: Poland used to be communist but is no longer. They have freedom. They are so communist in Poland that they tell the public they have freedom and the public has no choice but to believe it.
Maybe Rob could look into getting a group rate for busses and load up the 85006 and leave.
I think we we have more of a problem with illegal immigration coming into the country than citizens fleeing. We need better information on countries that will gladly take everyone in and care for them. They are obviously getting bad information currently.
Maybe Robs relatives in Austria can help out. I'm sure they won't mind paying for air fare and lodging for a few million more who are ready to flee.
And after 7 years the republicans failed to repeal or replace the ACA. I guess they'll have to trust polluted air and water to kill people instead of lack of health insurance.
Ultralight
3-24-17, 4:24pm
And after 7 years the republicans failed to repeal or replace the ACA. I guess they'll have to trust polluted air and water to kill people instead of lack of health insurance.
LOL
But I don't think they are done trying to screw people out of healthcare yet!
Teacher Terry
3-24-17, 4:27pm
UL: you have no clue what you are talking about. Yes in 2015 their President has been an ass like Trump and has tried to take away some of their freedoms but people have resisted. They are free to travel, demonstrate etc. The mayor of Warsaw has openly talked against the president many times and he is not in jail. Her parents travel freely, etc. I have visited twice and my DIL's family still lives there. One reason my DIL is keeping her citizenship there and here so they have a choice where they retire. I suspect they will retire there due to the healthcare and low cost of living.
And after 7 years the republicans failed to repeal or replace the ACA. I guess they'll have to trust polluted air and water to kill people instead of lack of health insurance.
That's right!
When we hear that other countries have free health care for all, do they have such over-the-top treatments, surgeries; so many meds for so many conditions; so many "procedures" and tests? I just wonder if our health care is so expensive because it is so advanced?
I can't believe how many people have knee replacements, etc. How many premies are saved, how many old people are kept alive, how many people with cancers are treated for years. I had a relative who was treated (in experimental setting at large hospital for 20 years and it cost his insurance a couple hundred thousand a year. Can we really compare this to other countries?
I heard a couple times from people in Canada that sometimes they had to wait a year for a CT scan.
Are we demanding too much? Are we expecting too much? I don't know.
Someone mentioned that the bill was being rejected by some because it gave too much away.......not necessarily because they were being concerned that some would get screwed.
But you know, to be honest, I didn't care WHY it was being rejected. The reason for pushing this through so fast was so Trump could put another notch in his belt quickly and just as importantly, many republicans wanted it passed so they wouldn't lose their next election. What a circus.
I was just glad that Trump was finally faced with him not getting every damned thing he wanted.
I'm still thinking that one special ops guy needlessly died in that raid because Trump wanted it done quickly, to look good himself.
Keep talking Trump.........you're going to bury yourself. At least we can only hope.
Teacher Terry
3-24-17, 4:48pm
Yes in some countries you do wait for elective procedures. But you have the choice to pay for it yourself in a private hospital but it is not unaffordable like it would be here. So what is the big deal about waiting for something that is not life threatening like a knee replacement? There is a reason that people are going to other countries for their healthcare. I actually am having some very expensive dental work done in KS versus here because I will pay 6k instead of 33k. KS has a cheap cost of living.
And after 7 years the republicans failed to repeal or replace the ACA. I guess they'll have to trust polluted air and water to kill people instead of lack of health insurance.
Or maybe a nuke from North Korea, if we insist on saber-rattling. We'll get no help from the gutted state department.
When we hear that other countries have free health care for all, do they have such over-the-top treatments, surgeries; so many meds for so many conditions; so many "procedures" and tests? I just wonder if our health care is so expensive because it is so advanced?
I can't believe how many people have knee replacements, etc. How many premies are saved, how many old people are kept alive, how many people with cancers are treated for years. I had a relative who was treated (in experimental setting at large hospital for 20 years and it cost his insurance a couple hundred thousand a year. Can we really compare this to other countries?
I heard a couple times from people in Canada that sometimes they had to wait a year for a CT scan.
Are we demanding too much? Are we expecting too much? I don't know.
Most people don't need "advanced" treatments (whatever that is--stem cell therapy?). The reasons our health care, IMO, is mainly greed. Doctors push expensive drugs and questionable procedures because there's money to be made. People are schooled by commercials (that is, after all, what drug companies spend their money on) to ask for mostly unnecessary, often dangerous, and always over-priced pharmaceuticals. Insurance companies drum up business with silly "wellness" programs, and companies make money from employees who are "non-compliant." From reading social media, I get the impression that people are in and out of doctors' offices more often than they go to the library, getting often useless treatments like antibiotics for viruses. Most people, IMO, would be better served to stay away from doctors as much as possible, and address their health concerns in other ways. See The Last Well Person, by Nortin Hadler.
The Republican leaders pulled the bill right before the vote.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/u-s-healthcare-bill-vote-1.4039248
Ultralight
3-24-17, 6:27pm
UL: you have no clue what you are talking about. Yes in 2015 their President has been an ass like Trump and has tried to take away some of their freedoms but people have resisted. They are free to travel, demonstrate etc. The mayor of Warsaw has openly talked against the president many times and he is not in jail. Her parents travel freely, etc. I have visited twice and my DIL's family still lives there. One reason my DIL is keeping her citizenship there and here so they have a choice where they retire. I suspect they will retire there due to the healthcare and low cost of living. Take it easy! I was just trolling you a little. ;)
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 6:48pm
Just came by to say that while I was on the Dial A Ride helping my Mother to/from her physical therapy appointment (she had knee replacement surgery a few weeks ago and this was legit surgery as she was in a great deal of pain before the surgery) I received a phone call from one of my neighbors - the one below me on the phone tree we have on our block - informing me of the Trumpcare defeat and the human rights victory scored thereby. Color me profoundly grateful. There is much joy and even more relief throughout the 85006. Not just for the non passage of Trumpcare and the associated victory for basic human rights, but for his first scalding legislative defeat delivered to him by his own party. I personally am filled with joy to a level I have not known since falling in love with my husband, thought it's not quite that level of joy.
There will be those here who disagree with me, and that's fine. You have different life experiences than me and likely you are in a different social class and will therefore see things differently. I may not like this, but I get it. My take is that justice (for once) prevailed, and that for once, the system actually worked. Color me profoundly grateful and a tad surprised as America has taught me to always expect the worst possible outcome - which did not happen today for the lower social classes. I will light a candle at church on Sunday and pray some prayers of simple gratitude. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-24-17, 6:53pm
And after 7 years the republicans failed to repeal or replace the ACA. I guess they'll have to trust polluted air and water to kill people instead of lack of health insurance.At least Obamacare still stands. I gotta say not only am I surprised but for once I am profoundly grateful. Rob
Chicken lady
3-24-17, 6:54pm
My dh is giddy over the moon. I am laughing so hard because he has defied the normal formula by moving leftward as he ages. I was singing the country song about "operator please connect me to 1982..." Except I then went on to "I need to say hey [dh] want to see something really funny...."
We can breathe easy for another night at least.
I've heard that cliche' about progressives and conservatives, but I've never believed it. When you're young you're a generous, compassionate soul, and as you age, you somehow turn hard hearted and selfish, grasping your wallet like you can take it all with you? I've been surrounded by liberals all my life (one of my relatives was a governor--the joke about him was that someone bumped into him on the street and said "pardon me." And he said "Sure; what did you do?" Hahaha. :~)) and none of them have suddenly converted into money-grubbing misanthropes. (All right; I'm a misanthrope, but not a stingy one...:|() Maybe that's because most of us had the coveted "enough," and we weren't obsessed with getting more.
Republicans failed, Obamacare remains unsustainable, and the need for change remains. I predict Bernie's star continues burning brightly.
Republicans failed, Obamacare remains unsustainable, and the need for change remains. I predict Bernie's star continues burning brightly.
As of today Republicans have ownership in what Obamacare is as well.
Republicans failed, Obamacare remains unsustainable, and the need for change remains. I predict Bernie's star continues burning brightly.
Yup. In a way it's sort of sad, because we really do need some sort of health care reform. Even Hillary in the debates claimed that Obamacare needed some changes.
T's comment was something like, we'll just wait until Obamacare explodes. If that is the case, it's hardly like a leader to knowingly let a major part of our health system and budget devolve into who knows what sort of disastrous end. He has party control of both houses and the power to patch or change things for the better and all are just walking away. And the democrats, who represent maybe 40% or more of the peoples vote, might as well just call in sick as anything they might propose won't be considered.
I don't know if this opens the gates for some sort of Bernie care in some election in the future, but I'd say we're stuck with what we have because our system is too dysfunctional to change.
There are a lot of problems with ACA, with premiums going through roof and insurers pulling out. I wish everybody would say, Bipartisan--we gotta work together to fix this situation, and stop looking at this as a Repub/Dem p%%ing contest.
Maybe the president will get to that, once the smoke clears. It does not help to have people like Pelosi gloating, posturing, and ignoring the very real problems with the system as it stands. I am really disappointed in the Dems on this one. If ever there was a need for everyone to work together!
I was hoping they would start to look at the problem items and work on a solution...but clearly it lost so let's just drop it all and move on to another task we cannot solve- tax reform. If they thought health care was difficult and complicated tax reform will die a quicker death. Maybe they all need to sit down and figure out their core values, if any, and check each item as to whether or not it will enhance or detract. Are there any core values besides reelection and posturing?
The problem all along with trumpcare was that the republicans didn't want to solve the problem they were claiming to try and solve. The only things they wanted to solve was getting rid of the individual mandate and passing a big tax cut for rich people. Add to that the fact that the freedom to die caucus of their party didn't think the bill went far enough in making healthcare unavailable to people and it was obvious no good bill would be created. It's unfortunate but entirely rational for the dems to have just stood by and watched. It's not as though there was any chance in hell that their input would have been listened to. The ACA is imperfect, o be sure, but it's way better than what existed before, and it's way better than what this bill was. The problem the republicans have is that the ACA is about as close to a conservative plan to do healthcare as is possible. After all the basic concept came from the Heritage Foundation as a rational alternative to single payer.
Well said, jp1! And in fairness to President Obama, he said when it passed that the ACA was flawed, and just a starting point. With insurers involved, it was bound to be plagued with problems.
Sometimes I feel like some Republicans (especially Trump), just wanted to totally get rid of the ACA, because it represented Obama to them............like it had his cooties or something.
They want to throw the baby out with the bath water. Why approach the ACA plan with total distain for the entire thing?
iris lilies
3-25-17, 3:35pm
Sometimes I feel like some Republicans (especially Trump), just wanted to totally get rid of the ACA, because it represented Obama to them............like it had his cooties or something.
They want to throw the baby out with the bath water. Why approach the ACA plan with total distain for the entire thing?
A large contingent of voters wanted to get rid of the ACA. Thats what they told the politicians, and thats why they were sent to D.C.
"Feeling" that this is all the idea of Donald Trump and/or Paul Ryan seems out of touch with reality to me.
Now, if we drill down to the details of what people wanted to be rid of, that seems to be all over the board. Hence, the Republican reaction--lacking cohesion and agreement.
Also, I would not characterize the House Republicans' approach in their AHCA as distain for the entire thing, since key elements such as the Basic requirements of any plan was included in debate, as were other elements that were kept such as pre-existing condition, children covered through age 26, and many others.
A large contingent of voters wanted to get rid of the ACA. Thats what they told the politicians, and thats why they were sent to D.C.
"Feeling" that this is all the idea of Donald Trump and/or Paul Ryan seems out of touch with reality to me.
Now, if we drill down to the details of what people wanted to be rid of, that seems to be all over the board. Hence, the Republican reaction--lacking cohesion and agreement.
Also, I would not characterize the House Republicans' approach in their AHCA as distain for the entire thing, since key elements such as the Basic requirements of any plan was included in debate, as were other elements that were kept such as pre-existing condition, children covered through age 26, and many others.
"Feelings" aren't always bad. You should try some. I know there are issues with the ACA. But some republicans hated Obama and everything he wanted. I think some in Congress were responding to that. And Trump's agenda and demand for speed has nothing to do with anyone other than himself, and his own need for attention and power.
A large contingent of voters wanted to get rid of the ACA. Thats what they told the politicians, and thats why they were sent to D.C.
"Feeling" that this is all the idea of Donald Trump and/or Paul Ryan seems out of touch with reality to me.
Now, if we drill down to the details of what people wanted to be rid of, that seems to be all over the board. Hence, the Republican reaction--lacking cohesion and agreement.
Also, I would not characterize the House Republicans' approach in their AHCA as distain for the entire thing, since key elements such as the Basic requirements of any plan was included in debate, as were other elements that were kept such as pre-existing condition, children covered through age 26, and many others.
All the politicians had to do was what trump campaigned on. Provide a plan that cost a fraction of the cost, lowered premiums and deductibles, and provided everyone coverage. He got loud applause when he told people about his beautiful plan to replace obamacare. It was going to be easy.
Well, now House Republicans can also take ownership for Obamacare as well.
Well, now House Republicans can also take ownership for Obamacare as well.
David Frum had it right when he tried to convince the republicans that opposing the ACA was a bad idea.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/the-republican-waterloo/520833/?utm_source=polfb
Sometimes I feel like some Republicans (especially Trump), just wanted to totally get rid of the ACA, because it represented Obama to them............like it had his cooties or something.
I had the same thought. There was some very negative Obama demonizing floating around and Obamacare was a nice big target to rally around. The individual mandate did not go over well among my conservative friends, regardless of it's benefits, which was also a big one. Plus Trump was promising a moon and stars healthcare plan.
gimmethesimplelife
3-25-17, 9:16pm
"Feelings" aren't always bad. You should try some. I know there are issues with the ACA. But some republicans hated Obama and everything he wanted. I think some in Congress were responding to that. And Trump's agenda and demand for speed has nothing to do with anyone other than himself, and his own need for attention and power.+1 Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-25-17, 9:30pm
Here's something interesting in regards to Trumpcare's fall, at least I think so. As I posted yesterday, I went to my Mother's physical therapy appointment with her on Dial A Ride as my husband was working and was unable to take her with his car as he has been doing - score him umpteen million points for being so kind as to do this. But once again I digress. On the Dial A Ride I received a call from the neighbor below me on the Block Phone Tree telling me the news of Trumpcare's failure. Soon after my Mother and I arrived at her physical therapy appointment which was located in another lower income zipcode, 85004. Realizing I was on home turf, when I first walked into the appointment with my Mother, I blurted out, "I'm so happy, I just found out the Trumpcare bombed. I'm so grateful", probably said a little louder than I should have. One of the Physical Therapy Assistants, a female, came over to me and hugged me and thanked me. And my Mother's Physical Therapist said that he had not heard this news yet but he was so glad as this physical therapy office works with many Mercy Care patients....Mercy Care being one of the Medicaid plans offered in the Phoenix area. And the Physical Therapy Assistant that has been working with my Mother, a young say 25 years old guy, clapped after I spoke my news.
I really appreciated this response from these health care professionals and even my Mother later told me that I was right about keeping to a similar zip code for her physical therapy. She saw the logic because if we had chosen a different area, a "nicer" area, a). I wouldn't have felt comfortable making my humanitarian remarks, and b). If I had made these remarks in a "nicer" area they may very well not have been received as they were in the 85004. Really, the zip codes don't have much to do with it - my point is that people's thoughts regarding health care do tend to correlate with social class and what people have seen/observed/experienced with American Health Care. Those familiar with the Dark Side of it are of course going to have a very different take than privileged individuals not familiar with the Dark Side of American Health Care.
At any rate, this particular Physical Therapy chain has my loyalty going forward now for it's humanitarian stance. Rob
iris lilies
3-26-17, 1:26am
I wonder if the feds will continue to pay for Medicaid patients in those sucker states that expanded Medicaid?
I wonder if the feds will continue to pay for Medicaid patients in those sucker states that expanded Medicaid?
I assume it will depend on whether the states passed medicaid expansion. As much as the feds under Ryan would like to kill off as many people as possible, they can't do that if it violates the federal law.
You must be really bummed that 21,000 people per year aren't going to die thanks to the failure of trump/ryan care...
iris lilies
3-26-17, 1:59am
I assume it will depend on whether the states passed medicaid expansion. As much as the feds under Ryan would like to kill off as many people as possible, they can't do that if it violates the federal law.
You must be really bummed that 21,000 people per year aren't going to die thanks to the failure of trump/ryan care...
What does your first sentence mean? Some states have ACA expanded Medicaid, paid for by the feds for, what, 3 years?Something like that. When that time period runs out, whot happens then? I am not feeling the love of Republicans for paying out something that the ACA dictates no longer needs to be paid out from the Federal treasury.
I will ignore your second sentence.
ToomuchStuff
3-26-17, 8:48am
Some states have ACA expanded Medicaid, paid for by the feds for, what, 3 years?Something like that. When that time period runs out, whot happens then?
Then it comes out of the state budgets. How quickly will local taxes go up to cover it and effect the very poor people it is supposed to help.
Even the conservative libertarian republicans in AZ voted in Medicaid expansion. People are actually getting some healthcare lately in this state. I work at the 140 year old safety net hospital in Maricopa County. It's been good for our patients. Some of those republicans do have a heart. ;)
Chicken lady
3-26-17, 9:24am
Iris lilies, this is a sincere question - how do you think that the lower income people who might be dropped from Medicaid under a reduction in federal funding should get health care?
should they use emergency rooms since emergency rooms can't turn anyone away?
should they go without?
should private charities provide their care?
do you see a path for them to buy their own health care? Do you understand what a large percentage of their income would go to what would basically be catastrophic care (and why? What's tens of thousands in medical debt when you have no hope of ever retiring or improving your standard of living anyway? - what is needed is preventative care.)
do you have some other suggestion?
is the answer "I don't know" and if so, do you think it's a question that needs an answer?
gimmethesimplelife
3-26-17, 10:01am
I wonder if the feds will continue to pay for Medicaid patients in those sucker states that expanded Medicaid?If you are referring to the 31 states that dared to show some basic respect for basic human rights and basic human dignity via expanding Medicaid, it's seems that the answer is yes - at least for the time being. Who knows for how much longer, though? Paul Ryan has said that Obamacare is the law of the land for the forseeable future but I don't trust conservatives to allow human rights to stand - so I don't believe his statement here. But one thing you may agree with me on IL? Trumpcare going down in flames did show me that once in awhile, the system can work. I have to say I was a bit stunned by human rights and human dignity prevailing - I certainly never expect this in the United States. It was a good show and I'm so grateful that Trump did not get his way - hopefully this fiasco will block him or at least slow him down going forward - in the sense of passing anything to redirect money to the top and bypass the lower social classes and what still remains of the hollowed out middle class. One can hope, anyway. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-26-17, 10:03am
Iris lilies, this is a sincere question - how do you think that the lower income people who might be dropped from Medicaid under a reduction in federal funding should get health care?
should they use emergency rooms since emergency rooms can't turn anyone away?
should they go without?
should private charities provide their care?
do you see a path for them to buy their own health care? Do you understand what a large percentage of their income would go to what would basically be catastrophic care (and why? What's tens of thousands in medical debt when you have no hope of ever retiring or improving your standard of living anyway? - what is needed is preventative care.)
do you have some other suggestion?
is the answer "I don't know" and if so, do you think it's a question that needs an answer?I am eager to see IL's reply as I believe she means what she posts and is sincere in her beliefs. I wonder what her take on this - what seems to be such a basic and elementary question in a society where one can have the rug pulled out from underneath them at any moment through no fault of their own - will be? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-26-17, 10:07am
Even the conservative libertarian republicans in AZ voted in Medicaid expansion. People are actually getting some healthcare lately in this state. I work at the 140 year old safety net hospital in Maricopa County. It's been good for our patients. Some of those republicans do have a heart. ;)I have nothing but respect for Jan Brewer, former governor of Arizona, who stood up to her own party to get expanded Medicaid to pass. And i believe you are right, Tammy - scattered here and there there are some Republicans that have a heart. And not only have I but many of my friends and neighbors have had access to health care desperately needed due to this - so i will further say that not every last Republican is bad. There are a scattered few with some decency mixed with their conservative views and these scattered few I can respect. Rob
As Democratic congressman Alan Grayson famously said--"The Republican health care plan--don't get sick. And if you do get sick, die quickly."
gimmethesimplelife
3-26-17, 10:14am
What does your first sentence mean? Some states have ACA expanded Medicaid, paid for by the feds for, what, 3 years?Something like that. When that time period runs out, whot happens then? I am not feeling the love of Republicans for paying out something that the ACA dictates no longer needs to be paid out from the Federal treasury.
I will ignore your second sentence.IL. I am not picking on you here, and you certainly get to post as you wish and believe as you wish, ok? I'm with you on this much. I only wish to at this point ask - as someone from the lower social classes, why the snub on jp1's second question? Are not these 21K saved lives just as valid as yours, just as much worth saving? The nicest way I can put this is I don't understand your reluctance in answering this, and your bypassing this question? The nicest way I can put this is that such behavior does not serve conservatives well in that it gives the appearance of They Are Not Worth What My Life Is. It could very well be that such is not your stance - I mean, we have never met.....it's not like we go to the cheap Mexican deli at Food City every few weeks to catch up over Albondigas, you know? But bypassing this question makes it look like those 21K lives mean nothing to you, whether or not this holds true. No smark, no sarcasm, no hard feelings. It just comes across that way to someone in the lower social classes, and perhaps no one has ever pointed this out to you? That could very well be for all i know. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-26-17, 10:16am
As Democratic congressman Alan Grayson famously said--"The Republican health care plan--don't get sick. And if you do get sick, die quickly."And this is something I can never forgive conservatives for - how little they value human life if that human life in question should be of the lower social classes. Rob
Chicken lady
3-26-17, 10:42am
I'm going to guess that IL chose to ignore the second part because it was inflammatory. 21k not covered is not the same as 21k dead. Yes, people who are not covered generally die younger and more often from preventable causes, but it's not an absolute.
a woman I grew up with recently decided she couldn't handle her arthritis pain with over the counter and alternative treatment any longer (she had health care coverage,which doesn't apply to otc/alternative care) so she went to her (covered) Doctor - who told her the "arthritis" was end stage bone cancer. She was dead 4 days later. Without coverage (or with a busier schedule) she would have been just as dead without 4 days of warning.
I'm going to guess that IL chose to ignore the second part because it was inflammatory. 21k not covered is not the same as 21k dead. Yes, people who are not covered generally die younger and more often from preventable causes, but it's not an absolute.
a woman I grew up with recently decided she couldn't handle her arthritis pain with over the counter and alternative treatment any longer (she had health care coverage,which doesn't apply to otc/alternative care) so she went to her (covered) Doctor - who told her the "arthritis" was end stage bone cancer. She was dead 4 days later. Without coverage (or with a busier schedule) she would have been just as dead without 4 days of warning.
The same thing happened to my SO's sister. I think it was a blessing that she didn't have to live with a diagnosis of cancer or barbaric treatments, though she might have received appropriate pain medication.
And this is something I can never forgive conservatives for - how little they value human life if that human life in question should be of the lower social classes. Rob
That attitude was apparently one we founded our country on, if the book White Trash is to be believed. That and Puritan values. What a winning combination that is! :sick:
I've come to believe that this country's basic values are greed, celebrity, and ignorance, which has culminated in the election of Donald Trump, who perfectly embodies all three.
early morning
3-26-17, 11:12am
I've come to believe that this country's basic values are greed, celebrity, and ignorance, which has culminated in the election of Donald Trump, who perfectly embodies all three.
Sadly, I can agree with your viewpoint, although I would add religious intolerance with a large dash of racism and misogyny. Earlier I may have put those additions down to "ignorance" but I see now that it isn't just being uninformed, it's a deliberate refusal to look at facts. I have to admit that I have become much more pessimistic about both the viability of our governmental system and about the long-term prospects of humanity in general, since this past election cycle.
I've come to believe that this country's basic values are greed, celebrity, and ignorance....
Only in the liberal areas. The rest of the country believes in liberty, self-determination and charity (to name just a few), which directly conflicts with the left's desire to impose their values on everyone else.
If these forums are a microcosm of the self-serving, self-righteous, mean-spirited values of the left, it's no wonder their party is in the governmental minority. It's an act of self defense.
Only in the liberal areas. The rest of the country believes in liberty, self-determination and charity (to name just a few), which directly conflicts with the left's desire to impose their values on everyone else.
If these forums are a microcosm of the self-serving, self-righteous, mean-spirited values of the left, it's no wonder their party is in the governmental minority. It's an act of self defense.
Odd you should say that. I've lately thought that "state's rights" are worth revisiting. I have faith in the ability of my state and the other West Coast states to get it right; that's why the idea of secession has so many fans here.
The Right believes in liberty? That's rich, what with the old white men in charge crafting ever more draconian laws around voting and women's reproductive rights, among others.
The Right believes in liberty? That's rich, what with the old white men in charge crafting ever more draconian laws around voting and women's reproductive rights, among others.
+1 Jane I find it interesting that conservatives fuss and fume about Government overreach, Nanny State and yet want to tell me how to take care of my life.
The Right believes in liberty? That's rich, what with the old white men in charge crafting ever more draconian laws around voting and women's reproductive rights, among others.The left has always confused the rights of the lives they create with their own. It's a quandary.
I'm going to guess that IL chose to ignore the second part because it was inflammatory. 21k not covered is not the same as 21k dead. Yes, people who are not covered generally die younger and more often from preventable causes, but it's not an absolute.
I agree that it was unfair for me to target Iris Lily. Iris, I apologize.
But my point and question in general are valid. Depending on what study you want to believe 21,000 additional dead people per year is a lowball number. And it really doesn't seem much of a stretch that 1 in 1,000 people who lose their insurance would die from treatable causes each year.
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/14/14921962/ahca-mortality-gun-homicides
No matter how one chooses to slice it and dice it the reality is that people who support a bill that causes people to lose their insurance so that a few rich people can get tax cuts are making an economic decision that 21,000 lives per year aren't worth as much as more money in the pockets of those few rich people.
early morning
3-26-17, 12:39pm
The left has always confused the rights of the lives they create with their own. It's a quandary.
It's quite clear, actually. Most of us on the left believe in self-determination, the ability to live as we wish without others telling us what we can and can't do, within the laws of our society. I am always confused by claims that the LEFT wants to infringe on the "rights of others" when in reality it's those particular "others" who wish to control the rest of us. It's preferable, from what I can see, for those on the right to support individual liberties ONLY as long as those liberties are ones they agree with. Own all the guns you want, just don't marry someone you love if you're gay. Pray in state supported institutions, but only as long as it's CHRISTIAN prayer. Don't have sex before marriage, but only if you're a woman. Don't discriminate against... Oh, never mind, that's freedom of whatever, discriminate away, as long as you're on the conservative side.
The left has always confused the rights of the lives they create with their own. It's a quandary.
Given defunding PP would cause likely cause net increase in abortions, plus however many deaths caused by lack of availability of affordable testing/treatment, I don't think life is what is being considered here.
Chicken lady
3-26-17, 1:07pm
Perhaps this should be a new thread, but I've often wondered why the religious right doesn't take the walgreen's/cvs approach -
take all all that money they are throwing at candidates and build health clinics across the street from planned parenthood. Offer all the same services except never mention abortion (except to condemn it) plus maybe offer some of the social services for newborns - clothes, breastfeeding outreach, diapers.... they offer at their crisis pregnancy centers.
try to do the healthcare part better, and then at least they can say, look, we don't want to take away the only source of Pap smears or birth control these women have, we offer a clinic right across the street that does all these things, respectfully and cheaper too!
or maybe not cheaper. I confess that I now shop at cvs now and then and never comparison shop at walgreen's anymore because of the decision not to sell cigarettes.
keep expanding the clinics until pp us irrelevant except for abortion services. Then come back with you federal funding arguement. I'm sure liberal groups can band together to offer women emergency help with abortion the same way crisis pregnancy centers offer emergency help with unplanned, sometimes unwanted (adoption referrals), unaffordable babies.
ApatheticNoMore
3-26-17, 1:12pm
Given defunding PP would cause likely cause net increase in abortions, plus however many deaths caused by lack of availability of affordable testing/treatment, I don't think life is what is being considered here.
regardless of abortion or not, funding it through PP, a private organization is kind of a strange way to go about it. Of course like basic public health things like vaccines, the government should provide completely free birth control readily available to everyone.
early morning
3-26-17, 1:33pm
Of course like basic public health things like vaccines, the government should provide completely free birth control readily available to everyone.+1
Teacher Terry
3-26-17, 5:07pm
OUr Republican governor also did expanded Medicaid and thousands of people with no access to healthcare finally have it and many are children. When are we as a country going to stop believing that people with access to good healthcare are special little snowflakes and people without are lazy losers? Bad things happen to good, hardworking people all the time. We as a nation can't depend on charity to help the less fortunate. When much of Europe recognizes healthcare as a right why can't we?
rosarugosa
3-26-17, 7:14pm
I wouldn't categorize affordable or publicly funded healthcare as a right because there is after all a substantial cost & the labor of others involved in providing the care. I don't think I have a right to the fruit of Tammy's labor, for example. I think it's more appropriate to say that in this prosperous country I feel it's appropriate to publicly fund health care to make it available to all citizens and legal residents (and I know some would say for all residents, but resources are finite, so I myself would draw a line).
I've been fortunate to always have a decent medical plan as part of my employment compensation package, but that's been getting drastically more expensive for worse coverage, so I think the health care debate is relevant for all of us.
Exactly rosarugosa! Just like we fund public: police, fire, paramedic, school and library personnel. We recognize these as things that everyone needs and which everyone should have. If the rich want fancier versions they can buy them but at least everyone would have essential care. And things like utilities are heavily regulated because you don't usually have a choice in where to get your electricity or natural gas. (someone else already made this point better than I can) There's only one reason we don't have some kind of universal health care and sane drug pricing in this county and that's because lobyists (for the health insurance companies and big pharma) own our so called "representatives".
I was pleased to hear Bernie Sanders today tell Dana Bash that the age for Medicare should be lowered to 55. Bill Richardson floated this idea years ago. One problem with the bill that just was pulled was the huge cost increases for Americans 55 to 64. If you take the oldest, sickest people out of the private insurance market I think that would do a lot to make premiums affordable for everyone under 55, and would also help open up jobs for younger people. Some folks who are only working for the insurance could retire, and others could start their own businesses adding jobs.
gimmethesimplelife
3-26-17, 9:14pm
I was pleased to hear Bernie Sanders today tell Dana Bash that the age for Medicare should be lowered to 55. Bill Richardson floated this idea years ago. One problem with the bill that just was pulled was the huge cost increases for Americans 55 to 64. If you take the oldest, sickest people out of the private insurance market I think that would do a lot to make premiums affordable for everyone under 55, and would also help open up jobs for younger people. Some folks who are only working for the insurance could retire, and others could start their own businesses adding jobs.This makes so much sense to me - so much sense. I just wish it could happen! Just think how much less stressful that stretch of life between 55 and qualifying for Medicare now would be! And with people over 55 being very vulnerable to job loss and then having such a hard time finding anything else in this economy of nightmarishly turbo charged capitalism - implementing this would make the sting of turbo charged capitalism less evil and less nasty. Good luck with it actually taking place in the United States, however! I'm just glad that it's even being mentioned. Rob
iris lilies
3-27-17, 12:13am
Iris lilies, this is a sincere question - how do you think that the lower income people who might be dropped from Medicaid under a reduction in federal funding should get health care?
should they use emergency rooms since emergency rooms can't turn anyone away?
should they go without?
should private charities provide their care?
do you see a path for them to buy their own health care? Do you understand what a large percentage of their income would go to what would basically be catastrophic care (and why? What's tens of thousands in medical debt when you have no hope of ever retiring or improving your standard of living anyway? - what is needed is preventative care.)
do you have some other suggestion?
is the answer "I don't know" and if so, do you think it's a question that needs an answer?
My dogs ate my IPAD yesterday so it took me a while to get communications back up and running.
There is no one monolithic answer for every health problem in the United States, be it covered by insurance or not. And, insurance isn't access. So, sure, going without (which plenty do now) and using emergency rooms (which plenty do now) and using charitable services (which plenty do) are some choices.
But it in the theoretical overview, I am not in favor of more debt by the federal government. If additional social programs are necessary, don't grow deficit spending.
there is no price of a human life. There IS a price on the health services received. Looking at any human service without looking at the cost seems short sighted. There will always be a cost/benefit to any health service, just look at the gigabites of analysis in publicly funded health care programs both here and abroad.
iris lilies
3-27-17, 12:14am
I agree that it was unfair for me to target Iris Lily. Iris, I apologize.
But my point and question in general are valid. Depending on what study you want to believe 21,000 additional dead people per year is a lowball number. And it really doesn't seem much of a stretch that 1 in 1,000 people who lose their insurance would die from treatable causes each year.
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/14/14921962/ahca-mortality-gun-homicides
No matter how one chooses to slice it and dice it the reality is that people who support a bill that causes people to lose their insurance so that a few rich people can get tax cuts are making an economic decision that 21,000 lives per year aren't worth as much as more money in the pockets of those few rich people.
A little snark now and then doesn't hurt me, it keeps me fit for err, umm, edgy discourse.
ToomuchStuff
3-27-17, 2:22am
bypass the lower social classes and what still remains of the hollowed out middle class.
Rob
I never understand why you think a lower economic class (the working poor), has any social status attached to it, and that the middle class does not. Correlation is not causation. You can be a lower economic class, and your "social" class would be much different.
21k not covered is not the same as 21k dead. Yes, people who are not covered generally die younger and more often from preventable causes, but it's not an absolute.
a woman I grew up with recently decided she couldn't handle her arthritis pain with over the counter and alternative treatment any longer (she had health care coverage,which doesn't apply to otc/alternative care) so she went to her (covered) Doctor - who told her the "arthritis" was end stage bone cancer. She was dead 4 days later. Without coverage (or with a busier schedule) she would have been just as dead without 4 days of warning.
But my point and question in general are valid. Depending on what study you want to believe 21,000 additional dead people per year is a lowball number. And it really doesn't seem much of a stretch that 1 in 1,000 people who lose their insurance would die from treatable causes each year.
Any stats on people who die every year, who have insurance, and are fighting the insurance companies for something (procedure, medicine, etc), while they delay, so they don't have to pay the bill?
How about another example of something I am curious about....
A friend of ours (anyone here study engineering?), survived the Hyatt collapse. The person had not worked for their company for long enough to have their medical/disability coverage yet. The person worked 3 more years, at 85% of being a quadriplegic, to get to that point, while the investigations/rehab/lawsuit and eventual trial happened. If the whole medicare thing would have happened then, what would have happened once the suits were settled? Who would get the money for their care, past as well as future and who would control it?
Perhaps this should be a new thread, but I've often wondered why the religious right doesn't take the walgreen's/cvs approach -
take all all that money they are throwing at candidates and build health clinics across the street from planned parenthood. Offer all the same services except never mention abortion (except to condemn it) plus maybe offer some of the social services for newborns - clothes, breastfeeding outreach, diapers.... they offer at their crisis pregnancy centers.
try to do the healthcare part better, and then at least they can say, look, we don't want to take away the only source of Pap smears or birth control these women have, we offer a clinic right across the street that does all these things, respectfully and cheaper too!
or maybe not cheaper. I confess that I now shop at cvs now and then and never comparison shop at walgreen's anymore because of the decision not to sell cigarettes.
keep expanding the clinics until pp us irrelevant except for abortion services. Then come back with you federal funding arguement. I'm sure liberal groups can band together to offer women emergency help with abortion the same way crisis pregnancy centers offer emergency help with unplanned, sometimes unwanted (adoption referrals), unaffordable babies.
Call me confused by this, but I thought the religious right had tried that very thing, only to end up in courts these last few years as lawsuits were filed to get the church funded organizations to pay for birth control/abortion, etc. etc. etc. Let alone those who are not a religion, but religious member and own a business they run based on their beliefs. Maybe if they did a Jim and Tammy Baker thing, broke off from their churches, made their business part of their "church", they could then get out of the costs/lawsuits, etc. while doing the whole Scientology thing. Can't say I know much about this linked site, as I mostly remember hearing these back and forths on NPR the last few years.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/feb/10/health-care-law-catholics-birth-control/
"But it’s unlikely to apply to a range of other church-affiliated organizations such as hospitals, universities and charities."
Chicken lady
3-27-17, 5:33am
That was insurance. I'm talking about point of service clinics. You can't force a clinic to provide a certain service. Maybe to provide a service they offer to anybody, but not to add services. Although, they would have to provide birth control, or it wouldn't work. So I guess they would lose the Catholic Church as support. Not most of the Catholics I know however.
So what have we learned from the past few days?
That under the American system, you can't govern as a caucus of one no matter how many threats you issue?
That a sizable minority of the GOP values ideological purity over getting at least some of what they want?
That an entitlement once created, however flawed, is very difficult to eliminate?
That people who value equality over freedom are quick to infer unsavory motives and heartlessness to people who value freedom over equality?
That everyone has a favorite default villain?
That nobody's opinion on abortion is changeable at this point in history?
That executive orders and declining to enforce uncongenial laws (as with Obama and illegal immigration) may be more effective than a frontal assault?
So what have we learned from the past few days?
That under the American system, you can't govern as a caucus of one no matter how many threats you issue?
That a sizable minority of the GOP values ideological purity over getting at least some of what they want?
That an entitlement once created, however flawed, is very difficult to eliminate?
That people who value equality over freedom are quick to infer unsavory motives and heartlessness to people who value freedom over equality?
That everyone has a favorite default villain?
That nobody's opinion on abortion is changeable at this point in history?
That executive orders and declining to enforce uncongenial laws (as with Obama and illegal immigration) may be more effective than a frontal assault?
Nice executive summary!
Nice executive summary!
On to tax reform!
gimmethesimplelife
3-27-17, 10:01am
[QUOTE=LDAHL;266127]On to tax reform![/QUiOTE]I mean this sincerely when I say I am looking forward to tax reform. This topic does not have life and death urgency to me as health care does so it's much easier for me to take a non-activist role on this topic. Judging from the shocker of Trumpcare folding - I for one expected it to pass - I don't know how effective Trump can be going forward with big plans or a bold agenda. Then again, what do I know, I thought Trumpcare was going to pass. Like many of my friends and neighbors (I'll skip the zip code reference for once) things in general have become so survival based since 2008, and especially since this last election, that it's hard to get riled up over a non-survival issue such as taxes. For those still clinging to the middle class here (be grateful the game of musical chairs hasn't dislodged you yet!) I can understand that for you, taxes are going to be of much more importance than for me as I don't pay as much as you in the middle class do. Taxes are going to interfere with what you can save to perhaps get out of the rat race sooner and I can see why lower tax rates would be something to cheer about for the middle class.
At any rate, tax reform is something I can watch with interest that will not get me all riled up and I'm glad for that. It will be interesting to read the commentary from others, both here and in the papers and magazines and online about tax reform. Maybe I'll learn something here as since it's not a survival issue for me, I can step back and absorb without fear. Rob
[QUOTE=LDAHL;266127]On to tax reform![/QUiOTE]I mean this sincerely when I say I am looking forward to tax reform. This topic does not have life and death urgency to me as health care does so it's much easier for me to take a non-activist role on this topic. Judging from the shocker of Trumpcare folding - I for one expected it to pass - I don't know how effective Trump can be going forward with big plans or a bold agenda. Then again, what do I know, I thought Trumpcare was going to pass. Like many of my friends and neighbors (I'll skip the zip code reference for once) things in general have become so survival based since 2008, and especially since this last election, that it's hard to get riled up over a non-survival issue such as taxes. For those still clinging to the middle class here (be grateful the game of musical chairs hasn't dislodged you yet!) I can understand that for you, taxes are going to be of much more importance than for me as I don't pay as much as you in the middle class do. Taxes are going to interfere with what you can save to perhaps get out of the rat race sooner and I can see why lower tax rates would be something to cheer about for the middle class.
At any rate, tax reform is something I can watch with interest that will not get me all riled up and I'm glad for that. It will be interesting to read the commentary from others, both here and in the papers and magazines and online about tax reform. Maybe I'll learn something here as since it's not a survival issue for me, I can step back and absorb without fear. Rob
I think you may be ignoring half the equation.
You have some pretty strong opinions on entitlement programs and the evils of income inequality. Even if you are in the large portion of the population that pays little or nothing in federal taxes (leaving Social Security aside for the moment), shouldn’t you have corresponding strong opinions on where the resources for social spending or income redistribution come from?
If you regard subsidized health care, etc., as a matter of "survival", shouldn't you be equally concerned about where the subsidies come from?
Teacher Terry
3-27-17, 1:23pm
We pay plenty in taxes but I won't get as riled up about that issue as I did healthcare because the latter is life and death. I also expect people like me to get screwed so rich people can get richer. IL: may be your ipad getting eaten was a message from the universe to quit digging a hole bigger:~).
iris lilies
3-27-17, 1:40pm
We pay plenty in taxes but I won't get as riled up about that issue as I did healthcare because the latter is life and death. I also expect people like me to get screwed so rich people can get richer. IL: may be your ipad getting eaten was a message from the universe to quit digging a hole bigger:~).
Naw, my IPAD being eaten was a sign of the times. Lazy, non-productive dogs who are living the welfare dream fail to appreciate what they have and they tear up everything around them. They both need some skin in this game. Yesterday I booted them outdoors to do security patrol. They need more of that work to keep them contributing members of our little home society.
Thanks Iris for the humor. The politics swirling around is not funny but our rescues and pets sure are. They give us some balance.
Teacher Terry
3-27-17, 1:47pm
I like that attitude IL:~). When I tell my 4 dogs to get a job my DH says they have a job which is to love me and walk me daily.
We pay plenty in taxes but I won't get as riled up about that issue as I did healthcare because the latter is life and death.
If you regard a program as "life and death", shouldn't you also regard whether it is financially sustainable as life and death?
We look at the creation of new benefits as meritorious, but we look at efforts to make sure they're solvent as cruel.
Teacher Terry
3-27-17, 4:27pm
On one of my forums someone published what someone in the US would pay in federal taxes making the same amount of someone in Europe and there was very little difference in the amounts. So we spend more then Europe, do not have universal healthcare and have worst outcomes. You do not have to go broke providing healthcare for everyone.
There you go, being logical again! Surely any increase in federal taxes would be more than offset by a decrease in insurance premiums. And people could relax and not worry about losing their house if they got sick.
There you go, being logical again! Surely any increase in federal taxes would be more than offset by a decrease in insurance premiums. And people could relax and not worry about losing their house if they got sick.
Under that scheme, would the 40 plus % of citizens not currently paying federal taxes be required to do so?
Teacher Terry
3-27-17, 5:36pm
It would not be that hard to look at Canada and Europe to answer those types of questions and do what they do. It is a model that we need to copy.
gimmethesimplelife
3-27-17, 7:58pm
It would not be that hard to look at Canada and Europe to answer those types of questions and do what they do. It is a model that we need to copy.This is the sanest post regarding the insane topic of US Healthcare that I have ever seen on this board, and that includes my posts. You succinctly state something so obvious and so common sense that is over the heads of so many Americans who have sadly chosen to drink the Kool Aid. Ay carumba.....but at least there are scattered folks out there who see the truth in what you have posted and this does give me some hope. Rob
Teacher Terry
3-27-17, 8:07pm
Rob, why we are trying to reinvent the wheel is beyond me. We have models that have been working for a long time and they are not bankrupting the countries and having better outcomes for less $. Poland is not a wealthy country at all and they can afford it.
Under that scheme, would the 40 plus % of citizens not currently paying federal taxes be required to do so?
That's a popular rightie talking point, but it's not true--like many of them--if you count payroll taxes:
https://mises.org/blog/myth-half-americans-dont-pay-federal-taxes
That's a popular rightie talking point, but it's not true--like many of them--if you count payroll taxes:
https://mises.org/blog/myth-half-americans-dont-pay-federal-taxes
I wasn't counting payroll taxes. I'll amend the question for clarity: Under that scheme, would the 40 plus % of citizens not currently paying federal income taxes be required to do so?
You mean the oligarchs with crafty tax lawyers? The corporations that evade taxes with addresses in the Caymans? If you're dirt poor, you probably won't be paying much in taxes--except for regressive ones like sales tax, and the taxes that come out of your paycheck. I have no idea how people avoid taxes--I pay mine--and I doubt that many do, Mitt Romney's snide commentary aside. If you're concerned that some middle-income person somewhere isn't paying what you consider their fair share, maybe you should work for more and better-paying jobs in this country.
You mean the oligarchs with crafty tax lawyers? The corporations that evade taxes with addresses in the Caymans? If you're dirt poor, you probably won't be paying much in taxes--except for regressive ones like sales tax, and the taxes that come out of your paycheck. I have no idea how people avoid taxes--I pay mine--and I doubt that many do, Mitt Romney's snide commentary aside. If you're concerned that some middle-income person somewhere isn't paying what you consider their fair share, maybe you should work for more and better-paying jobs in this country.LOL, if you start your reply concerned that someone or some entity isn't paying what you consider to be their fair share, you should probably just stop there rather than accuse me of thinking like you. :doh:
Anecdotes and stories about crafty tax lawyers aside, the Tax Foundation reports that the top 1% pays about 37.9% of total federal taxes and the top 5% pays about 58.6% Of course, what you consider "fair" is subjective.
https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2015-update/
Chicken lady
3-28-17, 9:09am
I have never minded paying federal taxes until now. My new goal is to donate as much as I can afford to non-profits doing work I think needs to be done in part in order to pay as little tax as possible. Also, I am really trying to find a way to afford solar power and get the tax rebate - So, trump has turned me into a republican.
LOL, if you start your reply concerned that someone or some entity isn't paying what you consider to be their fair share, you should probably just stop there rather than accuse me of thinking like you. :doh:
You seemed concerned that we "little people" (Leona Helmsley) were getting away with something--i.e. 40% not paying their fair share. I'm just pointing out that 1) that isn't true, and 2) the greedy rich* in this country often go to extremes to avoid doing just that.
*Not to be confused with the responsible rich who do pay what they owe, and give back even more.
One must remember that everyone pays sales tax. The poor are not exempt from that one.
One must remember that everyone pays sales tax. The poor are not exempt from that one.
And renters indirectly pay property taxes via their landlords. Actually taxes of all kinds are passed onto consumers as part of the cost of what they buy. Just because people aren't sending money directly to the government does not mean they are not paying taxes.
gimmethesimplelife
3-28-17, 10:43am
One must remember that everyone pays sales tax. The poor are not exempt from that one.True, but there is a way around that if they are willing. What many poor do is buy everything they can at yard sales and charity based thrift shops - both are exempt from sales taxes in Arizona. Obviously a yard sale is not going to charge sales tax but charity based thrift shops in this state don't charge sales tax, either. One I can recommend that is close to you, Tammy, is Maggies at 16th Street and McDowell, on the SW corner of the street just west of the Circle K there. I have gotten killer deals on furniture there on half off days and also scored some items for resale on ebay where of course I've claimed and payed taxes on the profits - but at least I was able to buy without tax. There are to this date workarounds to get out of sales tax.....anyone not liking this, my comeback is - and your dear leader is immune from scrutiny, then? No comprende, no entiende. Asi es la vida. Rob
So, if the majority of taxes some people pay are local, city/county/state, should the entitlement they seek be local as well?
At my last job my income was below the median for the state by a little bit and taxes were my largest expense - Federal income tax, state income tax, Medicare tax, Social Security tax, property tax, excise tax, gas tax, sales tax, tax on my phone bill, on my internet bill, on my cable bill, and taxes called fees to have utility service, get a license, register a car, visit a park or drive on certain roads. Then there unfunded government mandates for auto insurance, health insurance, carbon monoxide detectors, etc. It sure seems like taxation has become increasingly regressive.
flowerseverywhere
3-28-17, 4:12pm
So, if the majority of taxes some people pay are local, city/county/state, should the entitlement they seek be local as well?
it would make it interesting here in Florida. We have no state income tax and property/school taxes are less than 1/3 of what we paid in NY. By buying little new we pay little sales tax. The state makes its money by hotel and tourism taxes. Cars last a long time on pothole free relatively flat roads. And the roads themselves don't need plowing and sand/salting and associated labor and equipment costs. The gas taxes are way less than in other states, as are the cigarette taxes, although we do not smoke. Since the weather is nice, we walk and bike way more than we ever would up north which again decreases the tax we pay. It is an interesting structure. Not where I live, but many gated communities have the responsibility of their own road maintenance. Lots of toll roads that get tourists too. It is a very different structure than many states. Also, we pay county school taxes, not to our local town school.
ApatheticNoMore
3-28-17, 4:24pm
Thrift store purchases are taxed here. So no I don't think it's really so easy to get out of. On the other hand people are so sick of social problems persisting, that taxes, even regressive ones are actually quite popular on the ballot lately (might not be if nothing get done about the issues they were passed to address, but right now they are). Anyone who really thinks local sales taxes go to whoever our dear leader is (Trump?) is just misinformed, they go for state or often very specific local issues they were passed for.
gimmethesimplelife
3-28-17, 6:24pm
Thrift store purchases are taxed here. So no I don't think it's really so easy to get out of. On the other hand people are so sick of social problems persisting, that taxes, even regressive ones are actually quite popular on the ballot lately (might not be if nothing get done about the issues they were passed to address, but right now they are). Anyone who really thinks local sales taxes go to whoever our dear leader is (Trump?) is just misinformed, they go for state or often very specific local issues they were passed for.Hi ANM. What I meant about the dear leader bit is that Mr. Trump to date refuses to release his tax returns for scrutiny.....(why and what is he hiding?)...which is much worse than my ditching sales taxes at charitable thrift stores, at least in my book. Of course I understand that sales taxes don't go to Trump. Sorry I was not more clear on this. Rob
ToomuchStuff
3-29-17, 11:00am
So, if the majority of taxes some people pay are local, city/county/state, should the entitlement they seek be local as well?
Wait, shouldn't California just cover it all?:D
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.