View Full Version : Book: Men Without Work: America’s Invisible Crisis
Nicholas Eberstadt’s very important book, Men Without Work: America’s Invisible Crisis.
John Mauldin has a good newsletter on this problem which is uniquely the US. Unmarried, without a high school diploma, etc has resulted in:
"10 million American men of prime working age (25 to 54) who have simply dropped out of the workforce, and the great majority of them have not only dropped out of the workforce, they have also dropped out from any commitments or responsibilities to society. It is not just the labor force they are not participating in; they are not participating in the normal ebb and flow of community life..."
"Male participation in the civilian labor force has been steadily dropping for 60 years, through boom and bust years, periods of inflation and deflation, Republican and Democratic administrations and congressional control; the trend seems to be relentless – except that it has been accelerating since 2009."
"in the 20 years to 1998, the mortality rate of middle-aged white Americans fell by about 2% a year. But between 1999 and 2013, deaths rose. The reversal was all the more striking because, in Europe, overall middle-age mortality continued to fall at the same 2% pace. By 2013 middle-aged white Americans were dying at twice the rate of similarly aged Swedes of all races (see chart). Suicide, drug overdoses and alcohol abuse were to blame."
"Between 1948 and 2015, the work rate for U.S. men twenty and older fell from 85.8 percent to 68.2 percent. Thus the proportion of American men twenty andy older without paid work more than doubled, from 14 percent to almost 32 percent."
plus almost the highest incarceration rate in the world and a criminal record makes so many unemployable and increases the number even higher.
As a change from the usual partisan threads of Simple Public Policy, do you see any changes that can occur locally and up to turn this situation around? Non-skilled jobs are going to decrease as more automation comes into play.
Limits on how long a criminal record exists? Changes in charging for drug use? Ideas?
This is a heart-breaking issue to me so that is why I am posting this. If it is forecast that up to a third of men 25-54 will be unemployed in the next decade and dropping out of the community, it should be triggering more interest, don't you think?
Ultralight
3-28-17, 6:18pm
"The future is female."
"The future is female."
UL, from your classes, you will be hearing about the impact of the family members who are dropping out of the workforce and the struggle for families to cope. No ideas to share?
This troubles me a lot too. There was a recent article in The Atlantic on this topic which I can't locate now but may have been about the same research. IMO, there are so many contributors - broken families, bad public schools, no higher education, no role models, drugs and a general sense that some males might have that they are no longer necessary as providers to family and/or community...so why even bother? And now with the pot laws in some states, add another thing to handicap any motivation to change.
Massachusetts passed CORI reform under Governor Patrick limiting how long certain minor offenses could show on a person's criminal background check.
Chicken lady
3-28-17, 8:58pm
Very specifically - my daughter's best friend is going to have a baby in August. The father of the baby is living with her with her family and he doesn't have a job and he doesn't help out with anything. He dropped out of school because "it wasn't for him."
meanwhile, the mother of his child is working two jobs and going to college. She is smarter, more attractive, and more competent in every way than he is (she literally found him on the side of the road - she stopped and changed his tire for him.)
i personally do not understand how he ever ended up in her bed. But more than that, I fail to understand why her parents are feeding him. They seem to think it is best that he stick around. They let him sit around playing video games. At my house, he would work or he would not eat. And he would do as he was told or leave, at gunpoint if necessary.
perhaps this is partly why my daughters never brought home any bums for us to feed.
my son in law works only part time. But dd loves her job, they are not in financial difficulty, and he does the housework. Which is good, because she's terrible at it. They are happy and I don't see his employment status as an issue.
my son used to work for a local construction company my dad called "second chance construction." They would literally hire anybody - as long as anybody was male and willing to work. It was astonishing the number of guys they had to fire.
I don't think cannabis is an issue. Alcohol has been legal for years; some people will abuse it, most people won't. Now it's the same with weed. Probably half the people using cannabis are doing so for pain relief, often using strains with no psychoactive effects whatsoever. Opioids, now--that may well be a factor, especially in some areas.
Exorbitant college costs, lack of jobs, general widespread malaise, all may be part of the problem. With for-profit prisons on the rise, you can be sure more and more people will have permanent blots on their records.
Ultralight
3-28-17, 9:53pm
Very specifically - my daughter's best friend is going to have a baby in August. The father of the baby is living with her with her family and he doesn't have a job and he doesn't help out with anything. He dropped out of school because "it wasn't for him."
meanwhile, the mother of his child is working two jobs and going to college. She is smarter, more attractive, and more competent in every way than he is (she literally found him on the side of the road - she stopped and changed his tire for him.)
i personally do not understand how he ever ended up in her bed. But more than that, I fail to understand why her parents are feeding him. They seem to think it is best that he stick around. They let him sit around playing video games. At my house, he would work or he would not eat. And he would do as he was told or leave, at gunpoint if necessary.
These guys are called "busters." And it is "good work" if you can get it! Schlubs like me put on our brown shoes and shuffle into work every day. Why? Why bother?
Ultralight
3-28-17, 9:54pm
UL, from your classes, you will be hearing about the impact of the family members who are dropping out of the workforce and the struggle for families to cope. No ideas to share? Men dropping out of the workforce and women are filling the open slots. Why complain? Jobs get done, the world turns.
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-17, 8:07am
Well it would not necessarily be any better if women couldn't find jobs. They are not all partnered much less with someone who could support them (though if I couldn't find work and ran out of money I might rely on a man while trying desperately to train for some kind of work (either that or go live with my elderly poor mom), I think such would just about kill my partner - he's doesn't have some plum white collar job, he's not that job secure, and his job is nearly killing him as is). And for a single woman joblessness = no income and desperation and as much so as it does for any man. Oh women are less likely to kill themselves, but much more likely to suffer depression. Of course there is no real evidence companies are falling all over themselves to hire women either, women's participation has increased probably entirely because less woman are housewives and stay at home mothers (more women graduating from college does have something to do with it probably though). And after a certain age both genders get age discriminated against in hiring though even then I've heard women more so. Single women have always historically hit retirement much poorer than married women or men or single men.
There should definitely be a limit on how much criminal background checking can be done except for crimes of significant badness (no drug use should not be there and no misdemeanors should).
Ultralight
3-29-17, 8:13am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXQf2f2Yxo
This video might have some clues to this social problem, though this is about why men are choosing not to get married.
Wow. I don't know what to think about that video. So no one has been able to address the barriers to marriage with drivers that resonate--like companionship, intimacy, shared values, a partner-in-crime, a longer life (many studies show that married men outlive their single counterparts).
That video makes me feel that men still view women as "chattel"--only good for sex & money (as long as the marriage is intact)--and "don't you even think about taking away my freedom and privacy, woman!"
Now, I have to admit, my DD is hovering over the idea of marriage without landing anywhere, and she also has been turned completely off of having children based on her best friend's experience as a single mom. I have to admit my DD is as stubborn as she is self-assured, and it's a rare man who can put up with her demands. I'm not sure if she'll marry. Of course, I don't care, but I'm wondering if these "new values" cut both ways for both male and female--desire for freedom and space trumping desire for intimate and long-term commitment with another human being.
Are the economic and cultural stakes simply too low? If it becomes practical and socially acceptable to live off of others, all the while blaming forces beyond your control, why not defer adulthood indefinitely? Are these guys the mass-market equivalent of professional grad students?
If we think it needs to be "fixed", how do we go about doing that? Bring back military conscription, and give them a few years at the tender mercies of drill instructors to toughen them up? Tax the robots to give them a Universal Basic Income check so they can pay rent on their parents' basement? Government funded training or make-work for jobs they won't disdain? I'm not sure what the answer may be.
gimmethesimplelife
3-29-17, 9:24am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXQf2f2Yxo
This video might have some clues to this social problem, though this is about why men are choosing not to get married.Wow! I'm amazed that this video has been posted here and that Dr. Helen Smith's work has been referenced here. Let me explain why if I may.
I have been following www.mgtow.com for several months - it is a site for mostly straight men that I really don't fit into being gay and not having the same life experiences as the majority of the men who frequent this site. I only follow it as I have a few straight male friends who have seriously been burned in family court during nasty divorces. I am not one of those gay men who are anti-women - seriously, I was raised by a woman who could be a poster case for feminism - a woman who was almost born to be a servant to and a victim of men. So ladies here please understand I am not a woman hater and I am not siding against you. Seriously, I'm not.
That all having been said, I have had a bit of a revolutionary turn of thinking the past year or so. When I was growing up, I was teased, threatened, beaten up, shamed, you name it, for being gay and not being able to hide it well enough. I hung out more with girls as they were not as bad to me as boys were, so I grew up thinking that girls equal safety, girls equal better. What has really shattered this thinking for me was being exposed to straight men who have been through the cleaners/wringer of family court and how their ex-wives really viciously and vindictively treated them with the full backing of the laws and the courts. Anyone wanting full details, I will be glad to provide. It's not like I am anti women now but.....I have to say I am seeing things more from the straight male perspective in the sense that I believe there is inequality here that needs to be addressed and that the playing field these days - for the average Joe, not the elite or the extremely well to do and well connected - really does favor women, and at the expense of men. Not only that, I resent the societal implication that male equals potential rapist and or child molester - and I understand that such sentiment is even worse in Canada and Britain and Australia - for once, America is not the worst in something unpleasant. I also have a hard time forgiving ex wives who turn their children against their fathers in the case where the father is just an average everyday man who may have faults but is not a bad person.
I hope I have not made myself persona non grata to the ladies of this page - I don't believe all women are like this (but a shocker to me was that many men these days do believe this, ladies) - but there are some out there that are and once again, it's been a real stunner for me for once in my life to take the side of straight men on anything - but in this case I believe straight men have some legitimate grievances and society would be wise to listen and heed. Reason being - if enough men walk away, society will indeed collapse. Men do the heavy lifting in society - though this role has been diminished somewhat by technology - but they tend to do the more dangerous jobs - firefighters, police, construction work, military - etc - not that I am saying that there are no women in these roles and that women should not have these roles, I'm not saying that - what I am saying is that it is men that tend to have these roles even today. If enough men pick up their toys and go home (and more and more men are checking out of society as the deal society offers them vs. what women are offered is non-competitive, i.e., a better deal is offered for women than men as men see it) society is really going to hurt. Already more and more men refuse to marry or have children to protect themselves from anti-maie laws and the anti-male family court system. This is only getting worse. Anyone interested, a good reference point to explore these issues would be mgtow.com, but there are many other sites in the "manosphere" as it is called. Just google men checking out of society or men giving up on women and you will find a host of links/sites of related material. It's been a real eye opener for me and for once in my life, I ACTUALLY HAVE SYMPATHY for straight men - something I NEVER thought I would have. Never say never! Rob
PS Please understand, ladies of simplelivingforum.net, this was not meant as an anti-female bashing. I am not anti-women now - if anything, my views are more balanced than they used to be as I used to be anti straight men before having been exposed to the issues straight men are facing today. I'd say my views are much closer to 50/50 now than they once were and this is a place where I believe fairness can spring from. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-29-17, 9:37am
Wow. I don't know what to think about that video. So no one has been able to address the barriers to marriage with drivers that resonate--like companionship, intimacy, shared values, a partner-in-crime, a longer life (many studies show that married men outlive their single counterparts).
That video makes me feel that men still view women as "chattel"--only good for sex & money (as long as the marriage is intact)--and "don't you even think about taking away my freedom and privacy, woman!"
Now, I have to admit, my DD is hovering over the idea of marriage without landing anywhere, and she also has been turned completely off of having children based on her best friend's experience as a single mom. I have to admit my DD is as stubborn as she is self-assured, and it's a rare man who can put up with her demands. I'm not sure if she'll marry. Of course, I don't care, but I'm wondering if these "new values" cut both ways for both male and female--desire for freedom and space trumping desire for intimate and long-term commitment with another human being.I have a straight male friend, lower 30's of age, who I worked with at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon who now lives in hipster Portland. He tells me that these days in Portland it's almost an automatic assumption of young men and young women that there will be no walk down the aisle, no 2.5 kids, and no white picket fence. He tells me that neither young men or young women even want this - that everyone is simply going their own way and that the societal construct has radically changed just over the past five years. Oddly enough he tells me that the only people wanting marriage are gays and lesbians and that comment amazed me as I very much wanted marriage and am very proud to be married and am very protective of my marriage to another man. Given that his comment about gays mirrors my experience, I tend to believe the rest of what he has said, too. Rob
I know several men who have been locked up for not paying child support and they were never married. So that part of the video is bogus. Support is assessed based on a formula that does not take into account marital status.
He tells me that these days in Portland it's almost an automatic assumption of young men and young women that there will be no walk down the aisle, no 2.5 kids, and no white picket fence.
It takes all kinds, and people who think like that would probably make tragically lousy parents. But I have to say that despite all the work and worry involved I would't trade my wife and kid for all the fair trade coffee and artisanal cheese in the world.
It's an interesting social phenomena and might be an interesting read. I'm sure the demographers and statisticians have some reasonable explanations. I don't know how much my anecdotal evidence is universal, but it was not so long ago that young men in my home town went to work in the steel mill or the packing plant. They were good jobs with wages that could afford a solid middle class life. Now, the mill is mostly gone and the packing plant uses cheap immigrant labor. Construction trades are also dominated by recent immigrants. Concrete work, roofing, and maybe house construction are no longer white middle class work, but there seems to be a shortage of skills like electricians and instrument technicians. I think the jobs are out there for the right skills or education, but some of the traditional male occupations are gone and aren't coming back.
It seems like stay at home parenting is no longer a popular "occupation"?
gimmethesimplelife
3-29-17, 9:56am
Wow! I'm amazed that this video has been posted here and that Dr. Helen Smith's work has been referenced here. Let me explain why if I may.
I have been following www.mgtow.com for several months - it is a site for mostly straight men that I really don't fit into being gay and not having the same life experiences as the majority of the men who frequent this site. I only follow it as I have a few straight male friends who have seriously been burned in family court during nasty divorces. I am not one of those gay men who are anti-women - seriously, I was raised by a woman who could be a poster case for feminism - a woman who was almost born to be a servant to and a victim of men. So ladies here please understand I am not a woman hater and I am not siding against you. Seriously, I'm not.
That all having been said, I have had a bit of a revolutionary turn of thinking the past year or so. When I was growing up, I was teased, threatened, beaten up, shamed, you name it, for being gay and not being able to hide it well enough. I hung out more with girls as they were not as bad to me as boys were, so I grew up thinking that girls equal safety, girls equal better. What has really shattered this thinking for me was being exposed to straight men who have been through the cleaners/wringer of family court and how their ex-wives really viciously and vindictively treated them with the full backing of the laws and the courts. Anyone wanting full details, I will be glad to provide. It's not like I am anti women now but.....I have to say I am seeing things more from the straight male perspective in the sense that I believe there is inequality here that needs to be addressed and that the playing field these days - for the average Joe, not the elite or the extremely well to do and well connected - really does favor women, and at the expense of men. Not only that, I resent the societal implication that male equals potential rapist and or child molester - and I understand that such sentiment is even worse in Canada and Britain and Australia - for once, America is not the worst in something unpleasant. I also have a hard time forgiving ex wives who turn their children against their fathers in the case where the father is just an average everyday man who may have faults but is not a bad person.
I hope I have not made myself persona non grata to the ladies of this page - I don't believe all women are like this (but a shocker to me was that many men these days do believe this, ladies) - but there are some out there that are and once again, it's been a real stunner for me for once in my life to take the side of straight men on anything - but in this case I believe straight men have some legitimate grievances and society would be wise to listen and heed. Reason being - if enough men walk away, society will indeed collapse. Men do the heavy lifting in society - though this role has been diminished somewhat by technology - but they tend to do the more dangerous jobs - firefighters, police, construction work, military - etc - not that I am saying that there are no women in these roles and that women should not have these roles, I'm not saying that - what I am saying is that it is men that tend to have these roles even today. If enough men pick up their toys and go home (and more and more men are checking out of society as the deal society offers them vs. what women are offered is non-competitive, i.e., a better deal is offered for women than men as men see it) society is really going to hurt. Already more and more men refuse to marry or have children to protect themselves from anti-maie laws and the anti-male family court system. This is only getting worse. Anyone interested, a good reference point to explore these issues would be mgtow.com, but there are many other sites in the "manosphere" as it is called. Just google men checking out of society or men giving up on women and you will find a host of links/sites of related material. It's been a real eye opener for me and for once in my life, I ACTUALLY HAVE SYMPATHY for straight men - something I NEVER thought I would have. Never say never! Rob
PS Please understand, ladies of simplelivingforum.net, this was not meant as an anti-female bashing. I am not anti-women now - if anything, my views are more balanced than they used to be as I used to be anti straight men before having been exposed to the issues straight men are facing today. I'd say my views are much closer to 50/50 now than they once were and this is a place where I believe fairness can spring from. Rob
I came back to add that a couple of months ago in my personal life a woman I know - not extremely well but better than an acquaintance - told me to "Man Up" about something.....here's a shocker. What I said was, "I'll be glad to once you check your female privilege at the door." To me, this was an appropriate response due to our conversation preceding this remark and her attempts at shaming me. You should have seen the reaction I received!!!!! What an eye opener that was.....and I really thought I had learned everything life had to teach me. Nope.....lifelong learning it is for the win. I sure have/had things to learn in this area.
iris lilies
3-29-17, 10:08am
I came back to add that a couple of months ago in my personal life a woman I know - not extremely well but better than an acquaintance - told me to "Man Up" about something.....here's a shocker. What I said was, "I'll be glad to once you check your female privilege at the door." To me, this was an appropriate response due to our conversation preceding this remark and her attempts at shaming me. You should have seen the reaction I received!!!!! What an eye opener that was.....and I really thought I had learned everything life had to teach me. Nope.....lifelong learning it is for the win. I sure have/had things to learn in this area.
I love it when victims argue over who is the bigger victim. I get out the popcorn.
but I suppose this is the flip side of conflict over who is a bigger hero (stronger, braver, etc.)
Humans are just naturally competitive.
iris lilies
3-29-17, 10:14am
Wow. I don't know what to think about that video. So no one has been able to address the barriers to marriage with drivers that resonate--like companionship, intimacy, shared values, a partner-in-crime, a longer life (many studies show that married men outlive their single counterparts).
That video makes me feel that men still view women as "chattel"--only good for sex & money (as long as the marriage is intact)--and "don't you even think about taking away my freedom and privacy, woman!"
Now, I have to admit, my DD is hovering over the idea of marriage without landing anywhere, and she also has been turned completely off of having children based on her best friend's experience as a single mom. I have to admit my DD is as stubborn as she is self-assured, and it's a rare man who can put up with her demands. I'm not sure if she'll marry. Of course, I don't care, but I'm wondering if these "new values" cut both ways for both male and female--desire for freedom and space trumping desire for intimate and long-term commitment with another human being.
Your daughter will be fine married or unmarried, it doesn't matter. Well, it matters when children come into the picture, but that is another discussion. It may well be that she doesn't marry. But then, she may marry.
I didn't get married until I was 35, same with DH. I was indifferent to getting married, didn't care either way. We are well suited to give each other the freedom we both need, which actually isn't much, we are both homebodies.He is a whole lot more flexible in lifestyle than I am, though. But then, I am the one to craft the interesting arcs of our lives, or so I think, haha.
If companies are hiring more women, it's because they can--and do--pay them considerably less, in the vast majority of cases.
If companies are hiring more women, it's because they can--and do--pay them considerably less, in the vast majority of cases.
Sadly, I think that is true. Now that redounds to becoming unemployment for the men, for the first time. Hard to feel a whole lot of extra sympathy; why should it be an outrage that men are not working, just as it is not an outrage that women have not been hired all these years. I don't think the future is male or female, I think the future is "underpaid and exploited." Gender neutral underpaid and exploited.
Sadly, I think that is true. Now that redounds to becoming unemployment for the men, for the first time. Hard to feel a whole lot of extra sympathy; why should it be an outrage that men are not working, just as it is not an outrage that women have not been hired all these years. I don't think the future is male or female, I think the future is "underpaid and exploited." Gender neutral underpaid and exploited.
Well said, Tybee.
Great video, ultra lite. It makes perfect sense. If I were a young man I'd probably make similar choices - it's a cost benefit analysis.
I also find it ridiculous that we still run debtors prisons.
Nonpayment of child support should not result in incarceration.
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-17, 12:49pm
first rule of patriarchy: EVERYTHING women do is wrong. Really EVERYTHING. She can't win. If a woman doesn't work she is a golddigger after a man to support her. Run away! And if she DOES work she is taking our (male) jobs that are OURS by right gosh darn it!!! How dare she! So then the basic economic question remains of how women are even supposed to live at all? Or are they? Meanwhile women still do more of the caretaking and other unpaid labor as they have always done.
And meanwhile BLS figures show total labor force participation down. What does that mean? That the decline in male jobs is NOT made up for entirely by women taking those jobs instead, otherwise aggregate of male and female labor force participation would not be flat rather than down, it just would have shifted some in who it consists of. Women may have taken some jobs from men, but less people are working period.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-17, 1:13pm
Wow. I don't know what to think about that video. So no one has been able to address the barriers to marriage with drivers that resonate--like companionship, intimacy, shared values, a partner-in-crime, a longer life (many studies show that married men outlive their single counterparts).
many people saw their parents marriages and were suitably unimpressed. And that's those who didn't see their parents divorces!
That video makes me feel that men still view women as "chattel"--only good for sex & money (as long as the marriage is intact)--and "don't you even think about taking away my freedom and privacy, woman!"
Of course, I don't care, but I'm wondering if these "new values" cut both ways for both male and female--desire for freedom and space trumping desire for intimate and long-term commitment with another human being.
oh and nothing about women seeing men viewing women as chattel and that factoring in their decision not to get involved? I hardly believed that a man could be kind, and not prone to scary anger/rage and blaming a woman for all their problems, and not misogynistic in some sense and etc.. Nor did I much believe a relationship could be good and not abusive or at least painful. But there are decent men out there not doing the misogynistic circle jerk, which is probably equivalent to the manosphere.
I think the lack of community and structure is huge in this discussion - for all of us. I am thinking of all the native peoples of the world whose cultures have been plundered - let's say Native Americans - beliefs,traditions and community support wiped out. They turn to substance abuse to suppress their sadness at the loss. Our culture emphasizes independence and acquisition as signs of success. That leaves a lot of people wandering around without a meaningful life to pursue.
Pinkytoe, I think about the native cultures a lot in that regard. Maybe the alcoholism is not about a genetic weakness or something we need to rush in as do-gooders. Just giving people back their legal land! Let people live cooperatively and supportively without making it some sign of failure to do that.
I went through divorce and I feel my experience did not have bias either way. However the legal and counseling system do not know how to handle abuse. I did get supported by the child family investigator and had something short of a restraining order put into his orders. I did not have to speak to him alone, have him in the house, and could have a 3rd party present at any time. Meanwhile the counselors we had for the kids encouraged me to hug him, OMG. My situation was not that bad but I know of some real serious situations where abusers use the legal system to continue the abuse. And yes, men and women can both be abusers.
The whole child support and money issue, honestly I would have preferred to earn a reasonable amount of money and not needed it. It was hard for me to accept but I truly did not get a job that paid enough. My progress in working and a career was halted due to the divorce and my plans had to be approved by lawyers. Actually a huge negative in my marriage and relationship with my mother was working. I got a lot of pressure to either not work, work and still do everything at home, work in fields that were traditionally female, and no support in changing that. My mom started telling me to quit jobs at 18, long before kids. So I went into education. I have support to work for lower wages and be 'helped', but when I tried other things that competed with my ex the situation got very dangerous.
I'm not sure the reluctance to marry is exclusively a male thing--obviously, since I made a conscious decision not to marry. I'd rather impose my own limits rather than have them imposed for me, I guess. I wasn't much impressed by the video--is having your own space a bad thing? Who cares if it's in the attic, or basement, or a spare bedroom. Silly.
I have a young relative in Portland who's not interested in marriage, but they've been in a relationship for years, and they work and go to school. I imagine society is changing in ways that discomfort elders used to the old ways. I'm not sure this is a bad thing.
gimmethesimplelife
3-29-17, 4:24pm
first rule of patriarchy: EVERYTHING women do is wrong. Really EVERYTHING. She can't win. If a woman doesn't work she is a golddigger after a man to support her. Run away! And if she DOES work she is taking our (male) jobs that are OURS by right gosh darn it!!! How dare she! So then the basic economic question remains of how women are even supposed to live at all? Or are they? Meanwhile women still do more of the caretaking and other unpaid labor as they have always done.
And meanwhile BLS figures show total labor force participation down. What does that mean? That the decline in male jobs is NOT made up for entirely by women taking those jobs instead, otherwise aggregate of male and female labor force participation would not be flat rather than down, it just would have shifted some in who it consists of. Women may have taken some jobs from men, but less people are working period.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htmAy carumba! What do we do as a society and as a species then? The straight men I know all seem to feel the same as your first line - damned if they do, damned if they don't. They feel there is no way for them to win nor have a healthy long-term monogamous relationship with a woman under the current legal, societal, and economic climate. This means nothing, but Steve Butera, someone who gave me untold grief in middle school and high school for being gay - GET THIS - he actually said he was jealous of me since my romantic/sexual involvements (his word, not mine) don't involve women. That was a trip to hear from him after all these years.
Anyway, ANM, I don't mean to take away any validity from what you have posted - I have no skin in this game as I am happily married to a man and I have no illusions about ever being middle class without leaving the United States, so much of this does not apply to me and I have to admit I'm glad for that. My point is only that men seem to feel the same too - that they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Maybe it's a good thing as with fewer people reproducing, the earth may get some kind of a break. We as humans are not very kind to this planet, you know? Rob
.
I think I have two opposing forces when it comes to these issues: I am totally fine with anyone doing their own thing. I'm fine with my daughter never marrying, or ever having children. I align with most progressives on social issues. But I was raised Catholic, and not only that, my first ambition (in first grade) was to be a saint and then after that, a nun. My "bad boy" DH gave me some needed balance. My personal core is very traditional and I'll probably never stray from that. I am pro-choice but would never have an abortion myself (I'm far past that point anyway, but my value system was challenged in 1985, and prevailed).
I just find it interesting that marriage may be becoming almost irrelevant--except perhaps for, as Rob said, those in the gay community who he says are latching on to the promised land of love and intimacy.
The freedom thing is totally fine for the childless, and I get it. I would never marry again. But I believe that children benefit from two committed parents, and I hope that's where we can try to cling to the remnants of the "old school" ways. As I mentioned, DD's best friend chose a sperm donor and had a child. She owns a vegan bakery and now her life is just completely crazed with trying to manage home, work, family. Shoot me--I wish for some Prince Charming to swoop in and give her and her daughter a hand--just to give her some sleep if nothing else. (Obviously I'm being a bit flip about that, but I do believe she and her DD would benefit from some kind life partner).
Ultralight
3-29-17, 4:54pm
If companies are hiring more women, it's because they can--and do--pay them considerably less, in the vast majority of cases. Evidence, please.
Evidence, please.
“People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.” ~ Blaise Pascal
Evidence, please.
The evidence is overwhelming. I'm not going to do a data dump for you. Google is your friend.
It's true from the lowest to the highest job classifications, and has been forever.
I was lucky to be in a union, so was paid fairly.
Ultralight
3-29-17, 5:29pm
The evidence is overwhelming. I'm not going to do a data dump for you. Google is your friend.
It's true from the lowest to the highest job classifications, and has been forever.
I was lucky to be in a union, so was paid fairly. Is the pay gap about 7%?
Ultralight
3-29-17, 5:53pm
Wow! I'm amazed that this video has been posted here and that Dr. Helen Smith's work has been referenced here. Let me explain why if I may.
I have been following www.mgtow.com (http://www.mgtow.com) for several months - it is a site for mostly straight men that I really don't fit into being gay and not having the same life experiences as the majority of the men who frequent this site. I only follow it as I have a few straight male friends who have seriously been burned in family court during nasty divorces. I am not one of those gay men who are anti-women - seriously, I was raised by a woman who could be a poster case for feminism - a woman who was almost born to be a servant to and a victim of men. So ladies here please understand I am not a woman hater and I am not siding against you. Seriously, I'm not.
That all having been said, I have had a bit of a revolutionary turn of thinking the past year or so. When I was growing up, I was teased, threatened, beaten up, shamed, you name it, for being gay and not being able to hide it well enough. I hung out more with girls as they were not as bad to me as boys were, so I grew up thinking that girls equal safety, girls equal better. What has really shattered this thinking for me was being exposed to straight men who have been through the cleaners/wringer of family court and how their ex-wives really viciously and vindictively treated them with the full backing of the laws and the courts. Anyone wanting full details, I will be glad to provide. It's not like I am anti women now but.....I have to say I am seeing things more from the straight male perspective in the sense that I believe there is inequality here that needs to be addressed and that the playing field these days - for the average Joe, not the elite or the extremely well to do and well connected - really does favor women, and at the expense of men. Not only that, I resent the societal implication that male equals potential rapist and or child molester - and I understand that such sentiment is even worse in Canada and Britain and Australia - for once, America is not the worst in something unpleasant. I also have a hard time forgiving ex wives who turn their children against their fathers in the case where the father is just an average everyday man who may have faults but is not a bad person.
I hope I have not made myself persona non grata to the ladies of this page - I don't believe all women are like this (but a shocker to me was that many men these days do believe this, ladies) - but there are some out there that are and once again, it's been a real stunner for me for once in my life to take the side of straight men on anything - but in this case I believe straight men have some legitimate grievances and society would be wise to listen and heed. Reason being - if enough men walk away, society will indeed collapse. Men do the heavy lifting in society - though this role has been diminished somewhat by technology - but they tend to do the more dangerous jobs - firefighters, police, construction work, military - etc - not that I am saying that there are no women in these roles and that women should not have these roles, I'm not saying that - what I am saying is that it is men that tend to have these roles even today. If enough men pick up their toys and go home (and more and more men are checking out of society as the deal society offers them vs. what women are offered is non-competitive, i.e., a better deal is offered for women than men as men see it) society is really going to hurt. Already more and more men refuse to marry or have children to protect themselves from anti-maie laws and the anti-male family court system. This is only getting worse. Anyone interested, a good reference point to explore these issues would be mgtow.com, but there are many other sites in the "manosphere" as it is called. Just google men checking out of society or men giving up on women and you will find a host of links/sites of related material. It's been a real eye opener for me and for once in my life, I ACTUALLY HAVE SYMPATHY for straight men - something I NEVER thought I would have. Never say never! Rob
PS Please understand, ladies of simplelivingforum.net, this was not meant as an anti-female bashing. I am not anti-women now - if anything, my views are more balanced than they used to be as I used to be anti straight men before having been exposed to the issues straight men are facing today. I'd say my views are much closer to 50/50 now than they once were and this is a place where I believe fairness can spring from. Rob Rob: Do you think there is something just... sad, unsettling, and depressing about the MGTOW movement?
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-17, 6:02pm
Well something we would need evidence for is that companies preferentially hire women. Because I don't think they do. If women get hired because they have more formal qualifications, ok it's not fair in that it's not necessarily the greatest predictor of performance on the job, but what else are employers going to go by besides that and the interview? And would it really be any fairer? (I guess some kind of civil service testing is fair in it's way).
Sure anyone can come up with an anecdote of some underling who got hired because she was cute or something, but it's really not very applicable as a generalization.
Rob: Do you think there is something just... sad, unsettling, and depressing about the MGTOW movement?
I went through some of forums here - wow. I think the correct word would be "bitter". It may not be the primary focus, but they seem to attract very, very bitter men.
Wow, MGTOW seems like a very mean-spirited site. Scares me to think some men even think that way.
Ultralight
3-29-17, 6:22pm
Wow, MGTOW seems like a very mean-spirited site. Scares me to think some men even think that way. Mean-spirited indeed. I don't like that. It rubs me the wrong way.
I went through some of forums here - wow. I think the correct word would be "bitter". It may not be the primary focus, but they seem to attract very, very bitter men.
The market researcher in me wants to quantify these segments of men who are attracted to that site. Is this a cult? A trend? Outliers? A significant majority?
It also makes me question the cultural basis for this movement. The book Iron John was very popular a while ago, and that seemed to appeal to men who felt emasculated by society. My DH read it and liked it.
In Bly's view their failure has to be seen to have its roots in the modern collapse of millenia-old ways of living and working. Bly dates the roots of the present grief to the rise of industrialization in the early nineteenth century. Once, young men could work alongside their fathers. This is the characteristic way fathers teach their sons; not face to face, but shoulder to shoulder. Now most sons hardly know what their fathers do at work. Fathers disappear early in the morning and return in the evening exhausted, irritable, frustrated from the demands and abuses of the workplace. They are even mean or drunk. Or they simply run away, and make their absence complete. Thus the father boys see is not so admirable, nor what one would want to emulate: he is almost pathetic.
Yet in our society, parents are often the only models boys have. Caring relations between men have broken down at every level, not just within the family. Men rarely rely on one another. Nor do older men feel an obligation to help and encourage younger men as they come along. On the contrary, competition rules almost every relation between men. (Source: The Sixties Project)
Is it the inherent exploitation in the workplace? The insular world of technology? Alienation from community? Misplaced aspirations in terms of materialism? Or just a bunch of guys with bad experiences with relationships?
Ultralight
3-29-17, 6:28pm
Well something we would need evidence for is that companies preferentially hire women. Because I don't think they do. If women get hired because they have more formal qualifications, ok it's not fair in that it's not necessarily the greatest predictor of performance on the job, but what else are employers going to go by besides that and the interview? And would it really be any fairer? (I guess some kind of civil service testing is fair in it's way).
Sure anyone can come up with an anecdote of some underling who got hired because she was cute or something, but it's really not very applicable as a generalization.If companies can pay women so much less, then why don't they hire only women?
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-17, 6:33pm
Or just a bunch of guys with bad experiences with relationships?
i'm going with that ding ding ding, sure some people may legitimately have bad divorces, but I bet you find just as many who have never even been married.
Is it the inherent exploitation in the workplace?
nah then they would be posting on a political website (leftist of course which has always recognized such things, or well something like Trumpist sad to say). But really I don't think people would post there because they hate workplace exploitation, since it's easier to post somewhere focused on political issues (whatever politics one attributes it to) without so much baggage.
The insular world of technology? Alienation from community?
I don't think any of that helps.
Ultralight
3-29-17, 6:36pm
The market researcher in me wants to quantify these segments of men who are attracted to that site. Is this a cult? A trend? Outliers? A significant majority?
It also makes me question the cultural basis for this movement. The book Iron John was very popular a while ago, and that seemed to appeal to men who felt emasculated by society. My DH read it and liked it.
Is it the inherent exploitation in the workplace? The insular world of technology? Alienation from community? Misplaced aspirations in terms of materialism? Or just a bunch of guys with bad experiences with relationships?
Speculate. Please. I would be interested to know.
Speculate. Please. I would be interested to know.
Thanks, but I'm hardly qualified. Give me a bunch of money and I'll go out and research and let you know what I find out. There's definitely no one answer. Any speculation I would give would be totally biased, because I have a lot of questions about our political and social structure.
I do think modeling is important--meaning good paternal role models. I remember one of my NYC colleagues talking about his community in a poor black fatherless neighborhood, and how rudderless his black male friends were. At the same time, I grew up "poor" in a way (that is, cashless for an extended period of time) with a father who chose the drink over his family. I have three brothers. Two are solid middle-class family men. One had/has serious issues with life. But we're in that older generation. What would have happened if they had been raised when my kids were raised?
I think J.D. Vance "Hillbilly Elegy"offered a lot of insight when he said that it is extremely difficult to understand why some get along and others flounder, but he said that your parents don't have to be the ones to be the role models. If you have some surrogate, that makes all the difference.
I know we're not just talking poverty--we're talking expectations and disappointments. We're talking being autonomous vs being forced into submission either by the workplace or by your significant other. How do we come to feel empowered in our lives? What keeps us from feeling that way? I don't know.
That being said, my personal bias is against the culture at this time. I'm sorry that women can be the gold-digging, vengeful b's that some men may have experienced but that has a lot to do with cultural modeling, too. There is no way that those women represent the majority.
Ultralight
3-29-17, 7:21pm
Thanks, but I'm hardly qualified. Give me a bunch of money and I'll go out and research and let you know what I find out. There's definitely no one answer. Any speculation I would give would be totally biased, because I have a lot of questions about our political and social structure.
I do think modeling is important--meaning good paternal role models. I remember one of my NYC colleagues talking about his community in a poor black fatherless neighborhood, and how rudderless his black male friends were. At the same time, I grew up "poor" in a way (that is, cashless for an extended period of time) with a father who chose the drink over his family. I have three brothers. Two are solid middle-class family men. One had/has serious issues with life. But we're in that older generation. What would have happened if they had been raised when my kids were raised?
I think J.D. Vance "Hillbilly Elegy"offered a lot of insight when he said that it is extremely difficult to understand why some get along and others flounder, but he said that your parents don't have to be the ones to be the role models. If you have some surrogate, that makes all the difference.
I know we're not just talking poverty--we're talking expectations and disappointments. We're talking being autonomous vs being forced into submission either by the workplace or by your significant other. How do we come to feel empowered in our lives? What keeps us from feeling that way? I don't know.
That being said, my personal bias is against the culture at this time. I'm sorry that women can be the gold-digging, vengeful b's that some men may have experienced but that has a lot to do with cultural modeling, too. There is no way that those women represent the majority. When I was a kid, my mother (in one of her lucid moments) said: "You don't need role models. Be your own role model. Think for yourself and act accordingly."
Now... did that advice serve me well? It is up for debate. But I will say it hit home with me when I was a kid and I think it probably gave me a rationale to be a different kind of cowboy, so to speak.
When I was a kid, my mother (in one of her lucid moments) said: "You don't need role models. Be your own role model. Think for yourself and act accordingly."
Always hesitate to take any advice that sounds like it came from a bumper sticker. Sounds to me like she was setting you up for a lifetime of solipsism.
A guy can think for himself while still looking for positive examples to consider modelling himself on. It doesn't need to be mindless imitation. I think there's plenty of evidence out there of what happens to kids who grow up without positive role models.
To antidote all the gloom of the earlier video, this amazing video about the puffer fish and his efforts to seek a mate is a delight.
http://www.wimp.com/pufferfish-have-a-strange-mating-ritual/
gimmethesimplelife
3-30-17, 11:10am
Personally I find the MGTOW movement not entirely inappropriate. I would agree some of the posters/members there are a bit out there and a little over the top with their beliefs. That said, I have with interest read some of the introduction stories whereby these men introduce themselves and go into their history that brought them to the mgtow site to begin with.
Realizing that every story has two sides, from reading of what some of these men have been through from their ex-wives and the family courts - if even 50% of it is true, I can't blame them for joining the mgtow movement and giving up on modern women. (Please keep in mind this is coming from a very liberal and openly gay man who is not anti-female by nature). What some of these men have been through should be downright criminal, and I feel I owe an apology to straight men everywhere (not that straight men are suddenly angels incapable of fault and not that straight men don't bring their own set of issues and baggage to the table in a male/female situation) for being so automatically anti straight men for so many years. That's bad on me.
Like anything else, there will be extremists and those who go too far with it. YMMV - there are those on this board for example who find my political beliefs extreme and over the top, where to me they are everyday cold blooded common sense. Once again, you get to see things the way that works for you and your mileage may vary. That said, the general gist of the mgtow movement I understand - even as a gay male. My take is that society overall is anti-male and has been getting worse and worse this way the last twenty or so years. I can't blame this group of men for calling society out on this - it should have happened sooner. What this means for young ladies I don't know....unless the anti-male divorce and family court laws change, unless there is equal sentencing for crimes committed by men and women (women tend to get shorter sentences even for heinous felonies), unless so many other things change, I can't blame men for picking up their toys and giving up on society in a bid to have peace and quiet and harmony. And an increased quality of life due to less aggavation/worries/issues. I really can't blame men for responding/reacting this way.
I found this utterly amazing that some of the straight males who were so awful to me growing up have been very decent and human to me since I met up with them at my high school reunion back in 2014. One of them told me that I'm lucky to be gay as "women and marriage fail a cost/benefit analysis". This coming from Scott McGinn, who was a very popular football player/general A Hole back in the day. I have to say I was floored to hear that coming from him of all people as young women were all over him back in the day. Turns out he's been cleaned out twice in divorce court/family law court and he wants nothing to do with women any longer and is teaching his sons (who he barely ever gets to see due to his ex-wife's lie to the court about a DV claim) as best he can to avoid women like a plague.
It's really awful things have come to this....but men are merely changing and adapting to the realities they face in this social, political, legal, and economic climate. Though I may not share the same struggles with these men, I can't blame them for going their own way. I can't blame them for walking away from society, walking away from women, walking away from relationships period, in general just walking away from years of societal conditioning. What this means for women going forward, or for society in general, I don't know but my guess is that it's not good. And the wonderful thing about it is that no shots are being fired, there is no yelling or screaming going on on street corners, not rioting or protesting or looting - just men collectively walking away from women and society. The Y chromosome in me instinctively respects that, especially the non-violence of this peaceful non-compliance with society and it's expectations. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-30-17, 11:20am
Great video, ultra lite. It makes perfect sense. If I were a young man I'd probably make similar choices - it's a cost benefit analysis.It really is a cost/benefit analysis.....things have come down to this these days. I don't know if that's good or bad, actually, only that it is this way now for many men. Asi es la vida. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-30-17, 11:22am
I also find it ridiculous that we still run debtors prisons.
Nonpayment of child support should not result in incarceration.I could not agree with you more, Tammy. But there's a cynical part of me that says that we must keep private prisons filled so that those politicians with links to these corporations can continue to prosper. At a human cost that should be criminal in a "civilized" society such as ours. Rob
catherine
3-30-17, 11:27am
It really is a cost/benefit analysis.....things have come down to this these days. I don't know if that's good or bad, actually, only that it is this way now for many men. Asi es la vida. Rob
This is why I'm so interested in the gift economy, as utopian as it is. Money driving relationships just does not seem right.
iris lilies
3-30-17, 11:40am
To antidote all the gloom of the earlier video, this amazing video about the puffer fish and his efforts to seek a mate is a delight.
http://www.wimp.com/pufferfish-have-a-strange-mating-ritual/
that was beautiful!
http://www.dceaglecam.org/ Baby hatched yesterday and another on the way. I can't stop watching this video of the eagle cam in Washington...
iris lilies
3-30-17, 11:43am
How does prison work in the gift economy?
catherine
3-30-17, 11:58am
How does prison work in the gift economy?
I'm talking about the gift economy relative to relationships and work in this thread. Honestly, I don't know how it works in the prison system. I googled it but couldn't find anything off hand, but I'll get back to you on that.
In the meantime, this is a pretty good overall summary of Eisenstein's Sacred Economics:
https://wegotthenumbers.org/resources/non-fiction-books/sacred-economics/
All I'm saying is, I never understood why money alone would drive people to love or hate another human being, or why people who lose money would jump off a bridge. Only if money becomes part of you like an arm or a leg would you be that entangled in it. At that point money ceases to be "a means of exchange" and becomes what I consider to be an addiction.
gimmethesimplelife
3-30-17, 12:06pm
I'm talking about the gift economy relative to relationships and work in this thread. Honestly, I don't know how it works in the prison system. I googled it but couldn't find anything off hand, but I'll get back to you on that.
In the meantime, this is a pretty good overall summary of Eisenstein's Sacred Economics:
https://wegotthenumbers.org/resources/non-fiction-books/sacred-economics/
All I'm saying is, I never understood why money alone would drive people to love or hate another human being, or why people who lose money would jump off a bridge. Only if money becomes part of you like an arm or a leg would you be that entangled in it. At that point money ceases to be "a means of exchange" and becomes what I consider to be an addiction.Catherine, I think I can shed a male perspective on this if I may? Money is power to men - sheer power. Power can be taken many ways. In my case, money equals not having fear of lack of access to health care, the ability to walk away from situations that don't work for me or are actively toxic, the ability to not have to deal with that which repulses and repels me....think along those lines. For me, money is not a sexual or relationship oriented thing - it's about having the power to walk away from that which does not work for you. I don't consider this type of thinking about money to be an addiction - it's using money as a vehicle to avoid that which does not work for you.
That having been said, however, other men out there use/view the power of money in other ways, some of which I personally find repulsive/don't agree with. As with anything else, YMMV. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
3-30-17, 12:28pm
Catherine, I think I can shed a male perspective on this if I may? Money is power to men - sheer power. Power can be taken many ways. In my case, money equals not having fear of lack of access to health care, the ability to walk away from situations that don't work for me or are actively toxic, the ability to not have to deal with that which repulses and repels me....think along those lines. For me, money is not a sexual or relationship oriented thing - it's about having the power to walk away from that which does not work for you. I don't consider this type of thinking about money to be an addiction - it's using money as a vehicle to avoid that which does not work for you.
That having been said, however, other men out there use/view the power of money in other ways, some of which I personally find repulsive/don't agree with. As with anything else, YMMV. Rob
yea I don't think your view of money is exclusively male at all, I think some men have some ways of seeing money that are different (to compete more, to impress women etc.), but there is nothing gendered at all in seeing it your way, in fact seeking security out of money is probably more of a female thing if anything, but with increasing economic insecurity probably more prevalent everywhere.
iris lilies
3-30-17, 12:30pm
Oh for heaven's sake, money buys options in life. It is that simple.
If you all want to label options as "power" then that is fine, it is just another label.
yes, someone who had the option of not working for The Man might feel pretty unhappy if his ex stole all of his money and he had to go back to work, slamming those life energy hours toward The Man.
ApatheticNoMore
3-30-17, 12:33pm
otoh his ex may have spent decades dedicated to raising THEIR children pretty much, but unpaid labor is not money so ... but if the courts seek some compensation for the woman who choose unpaid labor in this case, it is not without some justification.
The most "you go girl" anecdote I ever heard, was of a divorce with no kids, the woman had worked for years to put her husband through professional school (I think it was med school in his case too) with an agreement (not a legal contract) it would eventually be her turn to go to school. But they divorced (irreconcilable differences whatever). And part of the alimony was full payment for her to go to medical school. She became a doctor. Woo hoo!
iris lilies
3-30-17, 12:37pm
otoh his ex may have spent decades dedicated to raising THEIR children pretty much, but unpaid labor is not money so ... but if the courts seek some compensation for the woman who choose unpaid labor in this case, it is not without some justification.
Sure, I am speaking of the theoretical idea that someone is foolish for being attached to money.
i think it is foolish to NOT be attached to money.
But it as in all aspects of life, balance is key.
catherine
3-30-17, 12:39pm
Oh for heaven's sake, money buys options in life. It is that simple.
If you all want to label options as "power" then that is fine, it is just another label.
That's true, IL. Unfortunately, though, why do people throw themselves into the lobby of the Marriott if they have no money? Rob, money=power is just a construct--basically what IL said. It's an idea you put in your head.
Money is a tool for some, and an identify for others. Too many people feel absolutely no sense of self-worth simply because they may be broke or poor. That's a waste of human capital.
Ultralight
3-30-17, 5:01pm
otoh his ex may have spent decades dedicated to raising THEIR children pretty much, but unpaid labor is not money so ... but if the courts seek some compensation for the woman who choose unpaid labor in this case, it is not without some justification. While she was raising THEIR children I bet that dude was just sitting on his duff in the basement playing video games for years. I doubt he was out there working, paying the bills, and shoulder that huge burden. Maybe she should have to get a job and pay him alimony so he doesn't have to keep working outside the home.
ApatheticNoMore
3-30-17, 5:13pm
only after years of being out of the workforce she probably isn't eligible for very much job wise at least not that will earn much money. That's why they would give alimony for one thing. Because she did the unpaid work and that is bound to leave one behind and in a bad way career wise.
Simplemind
3-30-17, 6:22pm
We have three kids. Two are in their early 30's and one is early 20's. All are in stable relationships, all have jobs. One owns a home and the other two don't want to be saddled with the responsibility of home ownership. All three and their partners have decided to be childless. One has a dog and the other two don't even want the responsibility of pet ownership. After working on downsizing both our parents (and they have watched) we didn't want their stuff and our kids even more so.
I was a single parent by choice. I didn't ask for child support and he was OK with that. Years later HE wasn't OK with that and he started to pay. It was nice but not necessary and I put it in the bank for college. Back in the day (22 years ago) he would have had to pay 1K a month for support. No way did it cost me that much and I didn't think it was fair.
Society has changed so much in such a short period of time..................
Ultralight
3-30-17, 7:01pm
only after years of being out of the workforce she probably isn't eligible for very much job wise at least not that will earn much money. That's why they would give alimony for one thing. Because she did the unpaid work and that is bound to leave one behind and in a bad way career wise.She made a bad decision?
Chicken lady
3-30-17, 7:16pm
Yep, she married the wrong guy and then she trusted him to follow through on their life plan and she didn't secretly squirrel away money in case something changed and she was left in a difficult position.
had I chosen a career path I could now be making close to 100k a year. It was important to both of us to have a parent at home with the kids. If I went back to work full time now, I would be making 18-30k with additional education required to bring me back to meeting all certification requirements.
the first three years we had kids he was in school and I supported all of us while providing almost all of the child care (took the baby(s) to work with me - a perk of my $7.50/hr job)
She made a bad decision?
This is a very old and exhausted argument, UL. Your social work courses should advise on this.
If you want future workers, someone has to provide care to ensure a good start. Standards have improved but not everyone can afford today's cost of childcare. Hence, maternity leave for a year in Canada.
I chose to be home for 6 years to ensure that they got the proper start. I did try working but the price on their well-being was too high in DH and my opinion.
When I retired, the timeout I took for childcare reduced my benefit from the federal pension plan by about a third less. In addition, I was occasionally unemployed as DH's employment moved him around.
It is not all about $$$$$$$ and simple accounting. Life has demands, family has demands, community has demands that don't compute with your clinical detached and uninformed observation. But women do pay a price when they stay home and provide childcare and many other services benefitting the community.
Ultralight
3-30-17, 7:41pm
This is a very old and exhausted argument, UL. Your social work courses should advise on this.
If you want future workers, someone has to provide care to ensure a good start. Standards have improved but not everyone can afford today's cost of childcare. Hence, maternity leave for a year in Canada.
I chose to be home for 6 years to ensure that they got the proper start. I did try working but the price on their well-being was too high in DH and my opinion.
When I retired, the timeout I took for childcare reduced my benefit from the federal pension plan by about a third less. In addition, I was occasionally unemployed as DH's employment moved him around.
It is not all about $$$$$$$ and simple accounting. Life has demands, family has demands, community has demands that don't compute with your clinical detached and uninformed observation. But women do pay a price when they stay home and provide childcare and many other services benefitting the community.I think you made a good choice to stay home. If you think you can have everything in life in abundance, you're mistaken. Education? Career? 3 kids? A husband? Friends? Other family? Hobbies? Leisure? You can have a couple in abundance. You can have a few in moderate amounts. Or you can have watered down, stretched thing versions of them all. You make your choices.
Ultralight
3-30-17, 7:42pm
Yep, she married the wrong guy and then she trusted him to follow through on their life plan and she didn't secretly squirrel away money in case something changed and she was left in a difficult position.
had I chosen a career path I could now be making close to 100k a year. It was important to both of us to have a parent at home with the kids. If I went back to work full time now, I would be making 18-30k with additional education required to bring me back to meeting all certification requirements.
the first three years we had kids he was in school and I supported all of us while providing almost all of the child care (took the baby(s) to work with me - a perk of my $7.50/hr job)I think you made a good choice to stay home.
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