View Full Version : Protesting is so good for the soul.....
gimmethesimplelife
4-13-17, 9:49pm
Last night I took part in a protest against United Airlines and I have to say, this really was good for my soul and it is something I need to do much more often. I am hoping to see the demise of United Airlines due to their inexcusable actions - really, there is no excuse for United going forward to continue operations - and I am hoping in some very small way my participating helps to bring them down. In a very, very, very small way, of course. Rob
iris lily
4-13-17, 10:21pm
I heard this guy would be taking names and dragging people down the aisle on United.
Where can I sign up?
1726
I am looking forward to the science march in a couple weeks. I am making my grandbaby a onesie with something science on it, although she is not going to the march with me.
ToomuchStuff
4-13-17, 11:41pm
How often do you take a plane ride between airports in your zipcode?:confused:
ApatheticNoMore
4-14-17, 2:47am
oh I won't fly domestically (and really it's not like i'm doing a lot of foreign travel either). Just too carbon wasteful to justify, not a saint here, but that I can avoid, and so I do.
I have not flown since September 11th. The last flight I took they messed up my vegetarian meal order, then offered me leftovers from the half eaten plates of other passengers. That was on Northworst. However if I ever realize my dream of going to Hawaii I will fly at least once more.
All that is really required of airlines (that they have done very well) is to get us up in the air and down alive. I know that is what I pay for.
The employees' actions dealing with the passenger lacked communication skills and common sense. But the employees were also dealing with the pressure to get the plane in the air for all the other passengers and the "schedule" and probably not having the authority to offer much to entice one passenger to get off. I bet $2-3 thousand dollars cash would have moved many off the plane. Once they called for help from security, the employees lost any control to the security staff who roughly got the passenger off the plane.
Comes down to once a passenger is boarded and seating, they should only be allowed to negotiate to get them off unless a danger to all the other passengers.
I also wonder where the captain was in all of this but probably engaged in all the preflight duties to get a plane off safely. So a bad time all around to be dealing with this on a plane.
I love owning my own plane. No TSA, can leave when I want and generally go where I want. My baggage is always there and I can chose my passengers.
The last time I flew commercial just reaffirmed my decision. It was cramped and I had to listen to kids screaming for over a hour. The trip back the guy in front of me was so big he should have had two seats. He was half way into the isle and of coarse the Seat back was all the way back close to me.
Most airline travel today is generally just moving people as cheaply as possible.
United should have just continued to raise the offers for volunteers until someone agreed to accept. Or arranged other transportation for their employees.
im going to the airport today and fly somewhere for lunch. Maybe the Keys, or St. Pete. I'll decide later.
I haven't heard of any protest of United in SW Florida. Some might actually choose a different airline which would actually affect them. Or sell there stock.
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 9:16am
How often do you take a plane ride between airports in your zipcode?:confused:I'm going to display some class by ignoring your snark and answering this question seriously.
Living in the 85006, I have more of a connection to the airport and the airline industry than you would think. The airport in Phoenix is but a ten minute cab ride away from my house, given that I live right around the corner from an on ramp to State Route 51, which allows rapid access to the airport from the 85006. Given that my neighborhood overall is struggling and lower income, many folks here work lower end positions in food and beverage or janitorial at the airport, or for Swissport (international company that airlines contract to to have basic cleaning/food prep tasks done). The airport is one of the biggest employers in the 85006, and though I don't work for the airport, I often hear airport drama from stopping and talking to my neighbors - often over a free shot of El Presidente from some of the cooler neighbors.
My point is that a malevolent (sp?) airline such as United that negatively impacts Sky Harbour International Airport is a cause of concern in the 85006 and you'd better believe people here know all about it. Please don't make the often committed middle class and above mistake of believing folks of the lower classes are uniformed - this is often not the case in my experience - probably the average Joe or Jane in the 85006 knows more about the United Airlines fiasco that the average Joe or Jane in the 85016 (85016 being a neighboring higher income zip code) - this has nothing to do with intelligence but rather with economic survival, as the airport is a large employer in this zip code as I've already stated. Rob
Last night I took part in a protest against United Airlines and I have to say, this really was good for my soul and it is something I need to do much more often. I am hoping to see the demise of United Airlines due to their inexcusable actions - really, there is no excuse for United going forward to continue operations - and I am hoping in some very small way my participating helps to bring them down. In a very, very, very small way, of course. Rob
How will marching, chanting and sign-waving "bring them down"? The financial markets might. The flying public might. Their competitors might (Fly Southwest: we may lose your luggage, but we won't beat you up). But if righteous outrage had any practical utility I can think of any number of companies that would have been protested out of existence by now.
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 9:23am
I'm going to display some class by ignoring your snark and answering this question seriously.
Living in the 85006, I have more of a connection to the airport and the airline industry than you would think. The airport in Phoenix is but a ten minute cab ride away from my house, given that I live right around the corner from an on ramp to State Route 51, which allows rapid access to the airport from the 85006. Given that my neighborhood overall is struggling and lower income, many folks here work lower end positions in food and beverage or janitorial at the airport, or for Swissport (international company that airlines contract to to have basic cleaning/food prep tasks done). The airport is one of the biggest employers in the 85006, and though I don't work for the airport, I often hear airport drama from stopping and talking to my neighbors - often over a free shot of El Presidente from some of the cooler neighbors.
My point is that a malevolent (sp?) airline such as United that negatively impacts Sky Harbour International Airport is a cause of concern in the 85006 and you'd better believe people here know all about it. Please don't make the often committed middle class and above mistake of believing folks of the lower classes are uniformed - this is often not the case in my experience - probably the average Joe or Jane in the 85006 knows more about the United Airlines fiasco that the average Joe or Jane in the 85016 (85016 being a neighboring higher income zip code) - this has nothing to do with intelligence but rather with economic survival, as the airport is a large employer in this zip code as I've already stated. Rob
PS The protest was actually a lot of fun, and there were food and refreshments served, too, a nice touch I was not expecting. I recognized a few protestors from my time protesting Wells Fargo downtown this past Fall when it was revealed how criminally shady the Wells Fargo Brand truly is, and I also recognized several neighbors of mine in the 85006. We are thinking of starting a protest committee of some kind - a least a phone tree to let folks know of protests and an effort to start a car pool for those needing rides to a given protest. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 9:29am
How will marching, chanting and sign-waving "bring them down"? The financial markets might. The flying public might. Their competitors might (Fly Southwest: we may lose your luggage, but we won't beat you up). But if righteous outrage had any practical utility I can think of any number of companies that would have been protested out of existence by now.We are at least getting the message out that to fly United Airlines at this point is to subsidize pure evil that does not care whatsoever regarding basic human rights and basic human dignity. To use such a brand is simply not acceptable in the 85006 - we are trying to spread this message up the social class chain/ladder. Certainly our local protest against the United Airlines Brand was not the only such protest in the US. Maybe we can't realistically do much regarding bringing down the brand, either, but at least we are not sitting around doing nothing whatsoever and not voicing our outrage against the actions of this evil brand. At least our voices are adding to the groundswell of fury and rage against the evil United Airlines Brand - surely this is better than being guilty of doing nothing against the brand, provided one has the time to make it to a protest? Rob
PS The protest was actually a lot of fun, and there were food and refreshments served, too, a nice touch I was not expecting. I recognized a few protestors from my time protesting Wells Fargo downtown this past Fall when it was revealed how criminally shady the Wells Fargo Brand truly is, and I also recognized several neighbors of mine in the 85006. We are thinking of starting a protest committee of some kind - a least a phone tree to let folks know of protests and an effort to start a car pool for those needing rides to a given protest. Rob
Set up a phone app to connect protester with protests. You could call it Unter.
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 9:34am
Set up a phone app to connect protester with protests. You could call it Unter.Now this is a good idea! I don't know about the name of Unter but a phone app for protestors, especially given how dicey life in the US has become for so many of it's citizens/permanent residents, is really a great idea! Rob
We are at least getting the message out that to fly United Airlines at this point is to subsidize pure evil that does not care whatsoever regarding basic human rights and basic human dignity. To use such a brand is simply not acceptable in the 85006 - we are trying to spread this message up the social class chain/ladder. Certainly our local protest against the United Airlines Brand was not the only such protest in the US. Maybe we can't realistically do much regarding bringing down the brand, either, but at least we are not sitting around doing nothing whatsoever and not voicing our outrage against the actions of this evil brand. At least our voices are adding to the groundswell of fury and rage against the evil United Airlines Brand - surely this is better than being guilty of doing nothing against the brand, provided one has the time to make it to a protest? Rob
"Pure evil"? Like the Holocaust? Laying it on a bit thick, aren't you?
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 9:40am
"Pure evil"? Like the Holocaust? Laying it on a bit thick, aren't you?Certainly the evil of United Airlines is no match for what took place during the Holocaust. Granted. At this point I will make two comments, however. A. I did not pull a Sean Spicer and ever compare United Airlines in any way to anything that took place during this unfortunate period of world history (nor would i ever given being one generation away from the Austrian homeland), and B. What United Airlines actions did to the 69 year old physician involved is truly pure evil and I don't see calling this for what it is a laying it on thick in the slightest. If anything I'm being too nice and mild, but such befits my role here as a moderator and I have to keep the language in check to some degree. As I said above, certainly the actions of United Airlines are no match for the evil of the Holocaust.....that does not make these actions less than evil in their own right, however. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 9:49am
I heard this guy would be taking names and dragging people down the aisle on United.
Where can I sign up?
1726You can have him all to yourself IL.....LOL. He's really not my type and in all seriousness, I don't care to ever be dragged off a plane and caught up in a whirlwind of insanity through no fault of my own as the unfortunate Dr. Dao hae been, regardless of his pending and likely highly successful multi-million dollar winning lawsuit. I can just do without drama to this point, other than protesting against it's unfortunate occurrence due to turbo charged capitalism running amok. Other people's mileage may vary, though, and I do understand that. Rob
I have not flown since September 11th. The last flight I took they messed up my vegetarian meal order, then offered me leftovers from the half eaten plates of other passengers. That was on Northworst. However if I ever realize my dream of going to Hawaii I will fly at least once more.
Since they no longer provide food you won't have that problem again...
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 9:57am
Since they no longer provide food you won't have that problem again...When I flew British Airways to Heathrow two years ago this summer, on the direct Phoenix to Heathrow flight, I was in Economy and I was literally stunned at how good and how humane the service was. Seriously. They fed us twice (TWICE!!!) in Economy, with one snack in between and the drink cart went around four separate occasions and mini-bottles of wine were provided with the dinner service. In addition, I asked for a Coke once and was given one quickly and with no attitude whatsoever.
From this I learned one lesson: If you can pull off flying a foreign carrier to fly from point A to point B, by all means do so. To do so is a vote against the US Airline industry, and other than Southwest and Alaska Airlines, many similar votes against are a good thing, like Martha Stewart might say. Rob
iris lily
4-14-17, 10:07am
We no longer have direct service from St. Louis to any place in Europe, but if United was providing it, I would most definitely use it.
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 10:11am
We no longer have direct service from St. Louis to any place in Europe, but if United was providing it, I would most definitely use it.Such is your choice and your right, IL, and I'm not disrespecting that here. For myself, however, I would not be willing to take the risk of a flight with United Airlines. I'd much rather fly a foreign carrier for saner service and more generosity with food and drink, as I experienced with British Airways in Economy two years ago on the direct Phoenix to Heathrow flight they offer. Rob
......I asked for a Coke once and was given one quickly and with no attitude whatsoever.
From this I learned one lesson: If you can pull off flying a foreign carrier to fly from point A to point B, by all means do so. To do so is a vote against the US Airline industry.......
Coke is an American brand, being true to your principles you should have asked for Explosade (a UK sort of equivalent).
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 10:14am
Coke is an American brand, being true to your principles you should have asked for Explosade (a UK sort of equivalent).They only had US brands of soft drinks to offer, Alan, otherwise I would have chosen something foreign. Rob
ToomuchStuff
4-14-17, 10:21am
I'm going to display some class by ignoring your snark and answering this question seriously.
Living in the 85006, I have more of a connection to the airport and the airline industry than you would think. The airport in Phoenix is but a ten minute cab ride away from my house, given that I live right around the corner from an on ramp to State Route 51, which allows rapid access to the airport from the 85006. Given that my neighborhood overall is struggling and lower income, many folks here work lower end positions in food and beverage or janitorial at the airport, or for Swissport (international company that airlines contract to to have basic cleaning/food prep tasks done). The airport is one of the biggest employers in the 85006, and though I don't work for the airport, I often hear airport drama from stopping and talking to my neighbors - often over a free shot of El Presidente from some of the cooler neighbors.
My point is that a malevolent (sp?) airline such as United that negatively impacts Sky Harbour International Airport is a cause of concern in the 85006 and you'd better believe people here know all about it. Please don't make the often committed middle class and above mistake of believing folks of the lower classes are uniformed - this is often not the case in my experience - probably the average Joe or Jane in the 85006 knows more about the United Airlines fiasco that the average Joe or Jane in the 85016 (85016 being a neighboring higher income zip code) - this has nothing to do with intelligence but rather with economic survival, as the airport is a large employer in this zip code as I've already stated. Rob
So your really protesting 85006 people having jobs? The flying public, not buying tickets on United will effect united and then by default their employee's. So by joining this protest, it would seem you are doing what your worried about.
Your the only one bringing insults to intelligence in this conversation. I never said anything like that, and am simply trying to understand your thought process.
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 10:30am
So your really protesting 85006 people having jobs? The flying public, not buying tickets on United will effect united and then by default their employee's. So by joining this protest, it would seem you are doing what your worried about.
Your the only one bringing insults to intelligence in this conversation. I never said anything like that, and am simply trying to understand your thought process.Your comment as to whether I fly between airports in my zip code? Seriously, no snark or antagonism here - how would you take such a comment if it were directed towards you? In my case, give me some credit please, though I did call you out on the snark (and i will admit that i did so), I then continued to answer your question seriously.
My take is that this is a very serious issue - is snark appropriate here period? I can see that there will be some here who are not going to agree with me, and that's certainly your right. Granted. Just as I enjoy the right of not agreeing with you. Fair enough. That said, is snark appropriate in the case of this 69 year old Chinese physician's basic human rights being violated in the name of turbo charged capitalism running amok? My vote is a resounding NO, and my actions since this unfortunate event have shown my disgust and contempt for the inexcusable behavior of this unacceptable brand. At least words and actions match in my case - and this was not meant as a comment against you, Too Much Stuff, but as a comment against politicians in general and also against the CEO of United Airlines. Rob
PS I came back to add - I believe myself and other other protesters deserve a little credit, if for no other reason, we are doing whatever little we can to retaliate against United Airlines by trying via legal means to lower their share price - the only language those in power at any corporation can possibly understand, given how capitalism is set up these days. At least we are doing something.....what are you and or others doing in the name of human rights against the United Airlines brand?
Certainly the evil of United Airlines is no match for what took place during the Holocaust. Granted. At this point I will make two comments, however. A. I did not pull a Sean Spicer and ever compare United Airlines in any way to anything that took place during this unfortunate period of world history (nor would i ever given being one generation away from the Austrian homeland), and B. What United Airlines actions did to the 69 year old physician involved is truly pure evil and I don't see calling this for what it is a laying it on thick in the slightest. If anything I'm being too nice and mild, but such befits my role here as a moderator and I have to keep the language in check to some degree. As I said above, certainly the actions of United Airlines are not match for the evil of the Holocaust.....that does not make these actions less than evil in their own right, however. Rob
Was that United who ejected the guy so unceremoniously, or Chicago Department of Aviation cops? If you're looking for someone to label "truly pure evil" as the object of a cathartic protest session, would't your main grievance be with them?
And when we choose to call such incidents "pure evil", don't we cheapen the term for when it is legitimately called for? Do a few incompetent airline and municipal functionaries really equate to ISIS or the Khymer Rouge? Aren't you "attributing to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"?
ToomuchStuff
4-14-17, 10:41am
Humor.
As stated, I do not see your logic, only the funny in this.
http://i.imgur.com/kOCvLq6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bBPEyBh.jpg
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 11:04am
Humor.
As stated, I do not see your logic, only the funny in this.Please accept my assurance that there is no humour in this situation in the 85006, there is no humour here for Dr. Dao, and there is currently no humour for the United Airlines brand given the PR nightmare they face that will not go away, and given the huge multi-million dollar lawsuit settlement they will have to pay out given their basic lack of concern for basic human rights and basic human dignity. If Dr. Dao is smart he will refuse a gag order on his settlement, thereby inspiring others to sue airlines to end these abusive practices and to bring the CEO's and their boards back to accountability and an overall sense of slight fear and awe of those they are supposed to serve. Rob
iris lilies
4-14-17, 11:12am
http://i.imgur.com/kOCvLq6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bBPEyBh.jpg
Translation : At this place 42 Norwegians were executed by the German occupation forces
I think this may mean we should keep perspective about what real heroes look like. My own
interpretation is that crying whining man-children being dragged down an aisle of an airplane are not them.
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 11:14am
Was that United who ejected the guy so unceremoniously, or Chicago Department of Aviation cops? If you're looking for someone to label "truly pure evil" as the object of a cathartic protest session, would't your main grievance be with them?
And when we choose to call such incidents "pure evil", don't we cheapen the term for when it is legitimately called for? Do a few incompetent airline and municipal functionaries really equate to ISIS or the Khymer Rouge? Aren't you "attributing to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"?United Airlines is directly responsible for the situation they themselves created which at their mistake caused the aviation cop to board the plane in question in the first place. As a result, I seriously question the viability of United Airlines continuing as a going concern.....they seriously need to be forced to end operations and sell their plane stock to competitors for pennies on the dollar. Will this happen? No - in America money is far more important important that human rights or human dignity. What we can do is to sue, sue, sue them to within a fraction of a centimeter of their economic survival, use social media against their pure evil, and protest, protest, protest - not just against United Airlines but to inspire fear in the boards of other US carrier airlines.....a good dose of fear of economic ruin for airline CEOs and their cronies might be just what the Doctor ordered (word play intentional) in terms of passengers being treated both humanely and within the confines of the law. Economic ruin is the only feasible solution that serves human rights if US airlines don't knuckle under to human rights and human dignity of their passengers at this point. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 11:19am
Translation : At this place 42 Norwegians were executed by the German occupation forces
I think this may mean we should keep perspective about what real heroes look like. My own
interpretation is that crying whining man-children being dragged down an aisle of an airplane are not them.It is not quite the same situation, no....I'll give you that and agree with you here. That said, it is still unacceptably evil and needs to be addressed so that these abusive airline practices cease. I'd say the economic destruction of United Airlines would be such a good thing for so many people - to see a large company destroyed via their abusive practices would give hope to so many struggling people and might inspire some well deserved fear into the (expletive) that allow these abusive practices to take place in the first place. Looking the other way when confronted with evil does not make evil go away - I learned that one that summer I was eight when I learned that the law in America is applied based on skin color and social class. I'm certainly not going to look the other way here and will spend what time I can adding my voice to the chorus demanding justice against United Airlines. Rob
I think this may mean we should keep perspective about what real heroes look like.
Rob should pay a visit to the Norwegian Resistance Museum in Oslo some day. Might provide some perspective.
I was unaware, for instance, that school teachers in Norway during the war were quite literally decimated(*) for refusing to agree to indoctrinate schoolchildren in The Official Beliefs. Considerable bravery. (* as in, 1 in 10 was selected to be sent to the camps if the teacher's union didn't sign up, which it didn't.).
Right up there with refusing to fly United and preferring non-Coca Cola soda products...
United Airlines is directly responsible for the situation they themselves created which at their mistake caused the aviation cop to board the plane in question in the first place. As a result, I seriously question the viability of United Airlines continuing as a going concern.....they seriously need to be forced to end operations and sell their plane stock to competitors for pennies on the dollar. Will this happen? No - in America money is far more important important that human rights or human dignity. What we can do is to sue, sue, sue them to within a fraction of a centimeter of their economic survival, use social media against their pure evil, and protest, protest, protest - not just against United Airlines but to inspire fear in the boards of other US carrier airlines.....a good dose of fear of economic ruin for airline CEOs and their cronies might be just what the Doctor ordered (word play intentional) in terms of passengers being treated both humanely and within the confines of the law. Economic ruin is the only feasible solution that serves human rights if US airlines don't knuckle under to human rights and human dignity of their passengers at this point. Rob
United has survived fiery crashes and terrorist attacks, it seems fairly likely to me that they will survive a dispute, however badly handled, with a poorly served passenger. I doubt he will be able to establish damages at the catastrophic level you're hoping for.
Is it possible that you're seizing on this particular incident as a proxy for your more general dissatisfaction with American Society and Capitalism?
Someone is going to have to explain to me--anti-corporatist socialist that I am--why everyone is in such a lather over this. I'm not up on every detail of what happened, but isn't it true that this guy refused a lawful order to leave the plane? If he felt he was being wronged, he could have hired a lawyer and sued the airline--indeed, I would have applauded him for doing so. It's also true that United's PR people screwed the pooch in a big way, and that Chicago cops are mostly thugs (I have personally witnessed their thuggery). But other than that, why all the fuss?
I'm guessing that this has more to do with air travel having become such a nightmare of psychological stress and physical discomfort. The incident itself was less important than its acting as a trigger for an outpouring of public rage.
Meanwhile, there are currently about a dozen major scandals brewing in Trumpland, any one of which would under Obama have kept the media in hysterics for weeks. And Orange Hitler has discovered that the quickest way to boost your popularity ratings is to bomb some furriners, giving cable news a nice supply of war porn.
I'm afraid the media is reverting to form.
Teacher Terry
4-14-17, 1:00pm
There is blame to go around for everyone involved with the United incident. They should have upped the payout until someone took the $. Or rented a limo to drive the employees the 4 hours to their destination, etc. Having said that I would have gotten off the plane. However, refusing to get off did not give the cops permission to drag him off and hurt him. I actually have been flying united a lot lately because my sons live in KS and I am having some expensive dental work done there as it is a third of the price. The employees have all been excellent. I fly with my 5lb dog (Cassie) so I told my friends that Cassie and I were watching the news and she made me promise to get off peaceably if that happened to us:~). Also the only real choices I have is Southwest who I like and United. However, SW has been about 200 higher per ticket so I won't be using them. On the last flight with United when we went to get on the plane we were told that they were out of overhead room so I had to give them my small carry on to check. So I was struggling to open it to remove my meds, was bending over and trying to not drop the dog who was in a sling carrier. The pilot saw me and stopped and helped me which was really nice.
Just going off the title of this thread "Protesting is good for the soul"
Not my soul so I resent being lumped into that statement a little. Turning on the news every day and seeing some new protest have it's 10 minutes of fame is just getting to me. I don't see the point other than the person who invented the "I protest...everything" T-shirt. That guy (or girl) is making some bucks. I know in history there were professional mourners paid to mourn at funerals...are there professional protesters that just hop from protest to protest? Putting on the ugly face, throwing their fist and trash in the air. I see public protests as mainly costing a lot of money. Ambulance and crew on standby, added police to break up fights and process disorderly, extra trash pick up, construction repairs, etc.
Rob, you mentioned how many in your zip-code depend on the airport for their income. If your airport loses United how many will be affected in your community? Every time we lose an airline it affects price of remaining airlines, available seats, etc... Heck, a bad few days of weather leaves people stranded for days because there aren't enough seats available...you really want that worse? I only see protesting this as having negative effect on future costs to us paying customers.
I know United's goal was to get out of the gate. The ripple effect is huge when a plane is late out of the gate. People protested over tarmac times, if they missed their take-off slot more delay problems. Yes. Everyone knows it could of been handled differently. Yes, Chicago security is crazy but they deal with crazy. No one wants to spend an extra hour in Chicago airport but why didn't people volunteer? Every time I've volunteered it worked to my benefit. I think what bothered me most is that everyone on the plane was quick to grab their phone and record but not do anything personally. Kind of like the video awhile back where there was an emergency un-boarding and everyone spent time videoing and grabbing personal belongings and luggage out of bins instead of getting off the plane. I would of gladly given up my seat and have in the past. People are just too darn selfish anymore it's all more about me and how everything affects me than looking for the good of man-kind. No wonder I barely turn on the news anymore.
Right now might be the best time to get a good deal and good treatment on a United flight. I'd give them a chance if it meant I could save some $. And I'd be sure to say "thank you" to the flight crew and step up and volunteer if they call for anyone to do so.
It won't be long until the doctor and CEO of United will be shown shanking hands and all smiles. A few Chicago cops may be reprimanded and all will be forgotten. The doctor will get a 6 or very low 7 figure settlement and gag order. No one will remember this in a few months.
gimmethesimplelife
4-14-17, 3:39pm
It won't be long until the doctor and CEO of United will be shown shanking hands and all smiles. A few Chicago cops may be reprimanded and all will be forgotten. The doctor will get a 6 or very low 7 figure settlement and gag order. No one will remember this in a few months.Au contraire. I will never forget and for the remainder of my life will tell the truth about United Airlines when the opportunity presents itself, hopefully impacting their balance sheet even if in a very small way. I will also be active against the United Airlines brand the remainder of my life via social media. Human rights and human dignity are worth that. Rob
Someone is going to have to explain to me--anti-corporatist socialist that I am--why everyone is in such a lather over this. I'm not up on every detail of what happened, but isn't it true that this guy refused a lawful order to leave the plane? If he felt he was being wronged, he could have hired a lawyer and sued the airline--indeed, I would have applauded him for doing so. It's also true that United's PR people screwed the pooch in a big way, and that Chicago cops are mostly thugs (I have personally witnessed their thuggery). But other than that, why all the fuss?
I'm guessing that this has more to do with air travel having become such a nightmare of psychological stress and physical discomfort. The incident itself was less important than its acting as a trigger for an outpouring of public rage.
Meanwhile, there are currently about a dozen major scandals brewing in Trumpland, any one of which would under Obama have kept the media in hysterics for weeks. And Orange Hitler has discovered that the quickest way to boost your popularity ratings is to bomb some furriners, giving cable news a nice supply of war porn.
I'm afraid the media is reverting to form.
I have a little trouble buying your assertion that the media is kinder to Trump than it was to Obama.
I think your theory of why the United incident has resonated so broadly is absolutely correct. Especially with the imagery that makes it so meme-able.
Au contraire. I will never forget and for the remainder of my life will tell the truth about United Airlines when the opportunity presents itself, hopefully impacting their balance sheet even if in a very small way. I will also be active against the United Airlines brand the remainder of my life via social media. Human rights and human dignity are worth that. Rob
So, there is no redemption possible in Rob's World?
Teacher Terry
4-14-17, 4:01pm
The problem is that people are constantly overreacting to everything that happens to them. It is a good thing it was filmed so there is evidence of what happened. People were yelling at the cops to stop but to physically intervene would have meant to be hurt too. The victim behaved badly too. United provides lots of jobs so it would be bad if they went under. Also it was one of their small partners that did this so they need some training too.
What happened to the other 3?
ToomuchStuff
4-15-17, 1:31am
Please accept my assurance that there is no humour in this situation in the 85006, there is no humour here for Dr. Dao, and there is currently no humour for the United Airlines brand given the PR nightmare they face that will not go away, and given the huge multi-million dollar lawsuit settlement they will have to pay out given their basic lack of concern for basic human rights and basic human dignity.
Your beginning to sound Trump like (HUGE). I didn't realize it was a human right to fly.>8)
Better go talk to your deity about that, and tell those people at the airport, that they need to donate their time, as it is a human right, so they shouldn't be making money off of it, either.:treadmill:
Someone is going to have to explain to me--anti-corporatist socialist that I am--why everyone is in such a lather over this. I'm not up on every detail of what happened, but isn't it true that this guy refused a lawful order to leave the plane? If he felt he was being wronged, he could have hired a lawyer and sued the airline--
He refused an order, now whether it was lawful or not, to be honest should be up to a court to decide. It was a mistake to tell the cops no, as they have the right to use force for their safety and to get the job done. Lawful gets decided after the fact in a court. (law part, verses enforcement parts) Besides the lawsuit against the airlines, I expect he has a criminal court appearance now for failure to comply, which could end up placing him on the government no fly list.
What happened to the other 3?Good question. If they know the airlines may need x number of seats, then why don't they reserve some seats on the plane.
Just heard on the news tonight that United now will reserve seats for crew in this situation at least one hour before a flight.
IshbelRobertson
4-15-17, 5:31am
Many airlines around the world have a policy of overbooking flights, hoping that no-shows and offers of cash/hotels will ensure the problem disappears! I know most British airlines do it.
Iceland Air has bumped me every single leg of this trip so far. To First Class. It's very odd- they have called me up to the counter after I am checked at in, usually just a few minutes before boarding. My only theory is that they had an empty 1st class seat, and throw it at me because they are nice people. I performed an emergency in-air medical intervention on one of their flights in Feb, perhaps they flagged me? Anyways, they are now my favorite airline.
Iceland Air has bumped me every single leg of this trip so far. To First Class. It's very odd- they have called me up to the counter after I am checked at in, usually just a few minutes before boarding. My only theory is that they had an empty 1st class seat, and throw it at me because they are nice people. I performed an emergency in-air medical intervention on one of their flights in Feb, perhaps they flagged me? Anyways, they are now my favorite airline.
You can sometimes improve the odds of that happening by treating gate personnel like human beings.
I used to occasionally get moved to first class when I traveled in uniform; which felt odd after getting spat at in college ROTC. Once, in an airport lounge a guy bought a round so he could tell me all about how the Air Force kept dropping bombs on him in Vietnam. I said we must have had our reasons, but bought him a drink by way of compensation, and we parted on friendly terms.
Here's a great article about the "between the lines" of this incident written by a pilot's wife
https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress.com/2017/04/11/i-know-youre-mad-at-united-but-thoughts-from-a-pilot-wife-about-flight-3411/
While the action of the security team (who were NOT United employees BTW) seem extreme, the article does help explain what led to it.
I admit to being a bit of an apologist for United. I just received my million mile card from them. Rob, I understand the anger and the whole "evil corporation" thing, but I just don't see United as evil. They completely botched the PR in this incidence, but to be honest, if I were to protest a corporation for wrong-doing, there would be several other companies in line before United.
(But, in line with the topic, I signed up for the Climate March on Washington on April 29 and I'm looking forward to it, and I'm glad they won't be checking my credentials for my in-flight carbon footprint because I might get hung from the Washington monument.)
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 10:44am
So, there is no redemption possible in Rob's World?I and the other protesters of the 85006 (actually to be fair, protesters came from all over the Valley, and not just my zip code) are not seeing behavior from United Airlines that would in any way justify the smallest chance at redemption. Best thing that could happen now is for the brand to go belly up and sell their planes to competitors for pennies on the dollar. I can't see justice being served any other way due to the actions of the United Airlines Brand which not only speak louder than words but scream from rooftops and can be heard from thousands of miles away - even in China there is much anger regarding the United Airlines Brand, and I'm very pleased and grateful to see this. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 10:46am
Iceland Air has bumped me every single leg of this trip so far. To First Class. It's very odd- they have called me up to the counter after I am checked at in, usually just a few minutes before boarding. My only theory is that they had an empty 1st class seat, and throw it at me because they are nice people. I performed an emergency in-air medical intervention on one of their flights in Feb, perhaps they flagged me? Anyways, they are now my favorite airline.I flew Iceland Air for my trip to Europe when I was 20 that my family in Austria paid for. I remember liking them - they were generous with food and beverage, too - but this was 30 years ago this May that I flew them. Rob
I and the other protesters of the 85006 (actually to be fair, protesters came from all over the Valley, and not just my zip code) are not seeing behavior from United Airlines that would in any way justify the smallest chance at redemption. Best thing that could happen now is for the brand to go belly up and sell their planes to competitors for pennies on the dollar. I can't see justice being served any other way due to the actions of the United Airlines Brand which not only speak louder than words but scream from rooftops and can be heard from thousands of miles away - even in China there is much anger regarding the United Airlines Brand, and I'm very pleased and grateful to see this. Rob
What about the city of Chicago? Shouldn't you also be demanding the mayor be thrown out, arrested, and sued? And let's not forget about his pension.
United handled this badly, but this is will soon be forgotten by the majority of travelers.
I am a little curious about your protest party's. Do the 85006 look at protesting as a social function? Do they have a committe to chose what the next protest is going to be for? Do they sell T shirts proclaiming their zip code?
iris lilies
4-15-17, 11:58am
What about the city of Chicago? Shouldn't you also be demanding the mayor be thrown out, arrested, and sued? And let's not forget about his pension.
United handled this badly, but this is will soon be forgotten by the majority of travelers.
I am a little curious about your protest party's. Do the 85006 look at protesting as a social function? Do they have a committe to chose what the next protest is going to be for? Do they sell T shirts proclaiming their zip code?
I, too, am surprised that the OP isn't framing this as another police brutality incident. The airport police, the higher ups including Mayor Ram, and ultimately the taxpayers should pay for this outrage.Or something like that.
Here's a great article about the "between the lines" of this incident written by a pilot's wife
https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress.com/2017/04/11/i-know-youre-mad-at-united-but-thoughts-from-a-pilot-wife-about-flight-3411/
While the action of the security team (who were NOT United employees BTW) seem extreme, the article does help explain what led to it.
I admit to being a bit of an apologist for United. I just received my million mile card from them. Rob, I understand the anger and the whole "evil corporation" thing, but I just don't see United as evil. They completely botched the PR in this incidence, but to be honest, if I were to protest a corporation for wrong-doing, there would be several other companies in line before United.
(But, in line with the topic, I signed up for the Climate March on Washington on April 29 and I'm looking forward to it, and I'm glad they won't be checking my credentials for my in-flight carbon footprint because I might get hung from the Washington monument.)
The problem with her perspective is that she ignored the one thing United could have done to solve the problem without resorting to the threat of government violence (and follow through of that threat) to enforce a civil contract. Bump up the offer to the point that someone will accept. If $800 flight credot doesnt cut it maybe $1000 cash or $1500 cash will. As onerously one sided as united's contract is with its customers it should be their duty to offer whatever it takes to get volunteers if they need to bump people. Taking the cheap way out that they did is about as anti-capitalist as can be.
What happened to the other 3?
Presumably they grudgingly accepted the "offer". Personally i wouldnt really call it an offer if the alternative to not accepting it is having the government carry out violence against you.
catherine
4-15-17, 12:22pm
The problem with her perspective is that she ignored the one thing United could have done to solve the problem without resorting to the threat of government violence (and follow through of that threat) to enforce a civil contract. Bump up the offer to the point that someone will accept. If $800 flight credot doesnt cut it maybe $1000 cash or $1500 cash will. As onerously one sided as united's contract is with its customers it should be their duty to offer whatever it takes to get volunteers if they need to bump people. Taking the cheap way out that they did is about as anti-capitalist as can be.
I do agree with that. I few hundred lousy bucks would have saved them a ton of money lost in angry customers.
ToomuchStuff
4-15-17, 12:39pm
The problem with her perspective is that she ignored the one thing United could have done to solve the problem without resorting to the threat of government violence (and follow through of that threat) to enforce a civil contract. Bump up the offer to the point that someone will accept. If $800 flight credot doesnt cut it maybe $1000 cash or $1500 cash will. As onerously one sided as united's contract is with its customers it should be their duty to offer whatever it takes to get volunteers if they need to bump people. Taking the cheap way out that they did is about as anti-capitalist as can be.
You might want to go back and reread her.
There are clauses in that contract, that are federally regulated rules (getting the flight crew to their plane to not delay air traffic). They enforced the contract, via a clause they have a legal argument and responsibility to use. If they didn't, and they delayed too long, then they are in violation of federal law.
You might want to go back and reread her.
There are clauses in that contract, that are federally regulated rules (getting the flight crew to their plane to not delay air traffic). They enforced the contract, via a clause they have a legal argument and responsibility to use. If they didn't, and they delayed too long, then they are in violation of federal law.
All the more reason to bump up the offer and get someone to volunteer so that they could get on with flying the plane. Government force isnt the right way to get your customers to do something. Offering up enough money is.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-united-legally-wrong-deplane-134223391.html
And as this article points out, the rules for bumping a passenger PRIOr TO BOARDING are dufferent from the rules allowing them to deplane someone who has legitimately been boarded. Untied appears to have breached their own toghtly worded contract of carriage when they did this.
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 9:18pm
It is right before 6PM now and I am about to leave for the airport in Phoenix to protest United Airlines with my husband (how did I get so lucky to end up with a man who understands???) and some other protesters from the 85006 including my cousin who I co-own a house with in the 85006 with and who is a frequent business traveller. All I can say tonight is that I am unable to respond to other posts regarding my protesting activity but I don't mean to ignore you - I will get back to you, especially to Float On, who raised some interesting points. Right now I am off to the airport to protest against the United Airlines brand with my husband and other protesters from the 85006. And I'm grateful for the food and beverage which I understand will be provided by Chicanos Por La Casa. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 9:28pm
What about the city of Chicago? Shouldn't you also be demanding the mayor be thrown out, arrested, and sued? And let's not forget about his pension.
United handled this badly, but this is will soon be forgotten by the majority of travelers.
I am a little curious about your protest party's. Do the 85006 look at protesting as a social function? Do they have a committe to chose what the next protest is going to be for? Do they sell T shirts proclaiming their zip code?A quick response - given that I am from the lower social classes, is it not my moral obligation to protest against United Airlines and the evil that this brand represents? Would I not be just as guilty as United Airlines is, understanding America as I do coming from the lower social classes, if I chose not to protest? Coming from the lower social classes and seeing America clearly as I do, how could anyone realistically expect me and my husband and others from the 85006 not protest? Appalling as it may seem to the upper social classes, I am all about human rights before profit. Deal. We of the 85006 have certainly had our share of profit over basic human rights FOR FAR TOO LONG. (capitalized to show respect for my husband and my in-law from Mexico, and to my Mother, an immigrant from Austria). Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 9:47pm
Your beginning to sound Trump like (HUGE). I didn't realize it was a human right to fly.>8)
Better go talk to your deity about that, and tell those people at the airport, that they need to donate their time, as it is a human right, so they shouldn't be making money off of it, either.:treadmill:
He refused an order, now whether it was lawful or not, to be honest should be up to a court to decide. It was a mistake to tell the cops no, as they have the right to use force for their safety and to get the job done. Lawful gets decided after the fact in a court. (law part, verses enforcement parts) Besides the lawsuit against the airlines, I expect he has a criminal court appearance now for failure to comply, which could end up placing him on the government no fly list.
Good question. If they know the airlines may need x number of seats, then why don't they reserve some seats on the plane.I am trying my best to accept that this was not a direct attack against the lower social classes in America and I am trying to believe, as best as I can, that this was not a direct insult to all the victims of the United States of America, and America's need to keep people from the lower classes down as best as possible to increase profit as much as possible for the upper classes. My husband, my Mother, and my in laws wish me to be brutally honest with you but......this site has been good to me and I will leave any retaliation against you to karma and walk away. And yes, those of the lower social classes are capable of incredible displays of class on a daily basis. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 9:50pm
Pulling into the Sky Harbour Airport in Phoenix now, at least for parking. Wish me a bitchin' meaningful protest of basic human rights and basic human dignity against what America truly is......Rob
So this one incedent from a company that employs thousands makes the whole company evil. They called the cops to get the doctor off the plane since he refused, and this is an attack on the lower classes.
i agree they handled it badly. But protesting for the downfall of a company for this is just silly.
Have fun fun at your protest.
Wish me a bitchin' meaningful protest of basic human rights and basic human dignity against what America truly is......Rob
Just saw this on Facebook moments before reading your post. On the spur of the moment and with your history of hundreds of similarly themed posts, it seems appropriate.
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17903835_1470290646357150_2630207267468685609_n.jp g?oh=00069333f9d596209d3ecbe202106d0a&oe=594F675C
You seem infatuated with victimhood and class. Evidently since childhood. How's that working out for you?
He will never leave Alan. He is part of the identity politics that is so popular now. He is a victim, that explains his lot in life.
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 10:50pm
Just saw this on Facebook moments before reading your post. On the spur of the moment and with your history of hundreds of similarly themed posts, it seems appropriate.
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17903835_1470290646357150_2630207267468685609_n.jp g?oh=00069333f9d596209d3ecbe202106d0a&oe=594F675CI'd love to start over in Chile with my husband and both our extended families if for no other reason, the affordable health care Chile offers, both socialized and private. I am enough of a realist to comparison shop America on these terms and I'm afraid America fails such tests. No excuse for this period, but I knew that at the age of 10 - such is not news for me at this late date. Rob
PS But at least the protest is going well, and there is support from many different zip codes, not just the 85006. Gives me some hope. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 11:10pm
I, too, am surprised that the OP isn't framing this as another police brutality incident. The airport police, the higher ups including Mayor Ram, and ultimately the taxpayers should pay for this outrage.Or something like that.There is something here to be said in regards to police brutality, IL, and multi million dollars settlements with the city of Chicago certainly are appropriate to keep the Chicago police in check going forward and to keep basic human rights and basic human dignity a top consideration going forward. You have a point - certainly there is much cash-in-able liability here in regards to the city of Chicago. However, the evil United Airlines Brand did draw first blood and so should be retaliated against first. Such is only fair, no? Rob
iris lilies
4-15-17, 11:44pm
There is something here to be said in regards to police brutality, IL, and multi million dollars settlements with the city of Chicago certainly are appropriate to keep the Chicago police in check going forward and to keep basic human rights and basic human dignity a top consideration going forward. You have a point - certainly there is much cash-in-able liability here in regards to the city of Chicago. However, the evil United Airlines Brand did draw first blood and so should be retaliated against first. Such is only fair, no? Rob
I find your arguements ridiculous. So, no.
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-17, 11:54pm
I find your arguements ridiculous. So, no.As do I for your lack of concern for basic human rights/dignity and for your stated continued support of the United Airlines brand going forward. However, realistically, do EITHER of our opinions matter going forward? What matters to the United Airlines brand at this point is the court of public opinion (not looking good here in Phoenix, AZ, but I can't speak for the rest of the country), not looking good in China, one of the brand's largest markets, and I rather believe (most importantly) not looking good in a court of law. What really matters now is to increase negative publicity in regards to this brand and to increase public pressure for a HUGE lawsuit settlement, in the range of above $300 million USD or so, so that other corporations also begin to live in fear of the general public. We shall see, IL, but at the moment it does not look as if this brand is going to get off easy. You can partially thank persons such as myself and my cousin and my husband, and even my Mother, who says she will protest tomorrow (though I don't believe she should so soon after her knee replacement, you know?) Rob
ToomuchStuff
4-16-17, 1:22am
https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-united-legally-wrong-deplane-134223391.html
And as this article points out, the rules for bumping a passenger PRIOr TO BOARDING are dufferent from the rules allowing them to deplane someone who has legitimately been boarded. Untied appears to have breached their own toghtly worded contract of carriage when they did this.
Arguments for the court, not for on the plane, unless your a lawyer. As an example, I have seen a lawyer go through a police DUI checkpoint and he knew what buttons he could press to push the issue. One of the officers recognized him and knew to leave it alone. But I also know of horror stories where lawyers crossed the line. The average Joe, I wouldn't recommend armchair lawyering.
A quick response - given that I am from the lower social classes, is it not my moral obligation to protest against United Airlines and the evil that this brand represents? Would I not be just as guilty as United Airlines is, understanding America as I do coming from the lower social classes, if I chose not to protest? Coming from the lower social classes and seeing America clearly as I do, how could anyone realistically expect me and my husband and others from the 85006 not protest? Appalling as it may seem to the upper social classes, I am all about human rights before profit. Deal. We of the 85006 have certainly had our share of profit over basic human rights FOR FAR TOO LONG. (capitalized to show respect for my husband and my in-law from Mexico, and to my Mother, an immigrant from Austria). Rob
As do I for your lack of concern for basic human rights/dignity and for your stated continued support of the United Airlines brand going forward. However, realistically, do EITHER of our opinions matter going forward? What matters to the United Airlines brand at this point is the court of public opinion (not looking good here in Phoenix, AZ, but I can't speak for the rest of the country), not looking good in China, one of the brand's largest markets, and I rather believe (most importantly) not looking good in a court of law. What really matters now is to increase negative publicity in regards to this brand and to increase public pressure for a HUGE lawsuit settlement, in the range of above $300 million USD or so, so that other corporations also begin to live in fear of the general public. Rob
So your d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't protest and hope economically this airline is destroyed financially and ruins your zip codes major employer? And this is because of some imaginary self imposed class system, you believe is out to get you? No, no obligation other then what you self impose upon yourself.
I am trying my best to accept that this was not a direct attack against the lower social classes in America and I am trying to believe, as best as I can, that this was not a direct insult to all the victims of the United States of America, and America's need to keep people from the lower classes down as best as possible to increase profit as much as possible for the upper classes. My husband, my Mother, and my in laws wish me to be brutally honest with you but......this site has been good to me and I will leave any retaliation against you to karma and walk away. And yes, those of the lower social classes are capable of incredible displays of class on a daily basis. Rob
No one can help you with what YOU believe. That is up to YOU. I deal with real people, in real life. Some victims of rape, incest, attempted murder, burglary, theft, etc. Others are perpetrators, Pedophile, murderers, thieves, abusive people of various sorts. You wish to retaliate for what YOU perceive as an injustice, go ahead, what can you do other then form a protest in front of your computer (like to see that,:laff:)!
I'd love to start over in Chile with my husband and both our extended families if for no other reason, the affordable health care Chile offers, both socialized and private. I am enough of a realist to comparison shop America on these terms and I'm afraid America fails such tests. No excuse for this period, but I knew that at the age of 10 - such is not news for me at this late date. Rob
You cannot force others to go with you (inlaw's and that is their choice). So are you going to actually get information about immigrating to there while you are there, or is there something that is going to make you a victim and unable to do that?:doh::treadmill:
ToomuchStuff
4-16-17, 1:25am
Just saw this on Facebook moments before reading your post. On the spur of the moment and with your history of hundreds of similarly themed posts, it seems appropriate.
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17903835_1470290646357150_2630207267468685609_n.jp g?oh=00069333f9d596209d3ecbe202106d0a&oe=594F675C
Where is the tantrum crying kid meme, with the they won't let me Calexit post?
ToomuchStuff
4-16-17, 1:33am
I find your arguements ridiculous. So, no.
Could you at least point to arguments? He has yet to even state what "human rights" were violated.
Pulling into the Sky Harbour Airport in Phoenix now, at least for parking. Wish me a bitchin' meaningful protest of basic human rights and basic human dignity against what America truly is......Rob
Nope. I find your position absurd.
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 7:44am
I think, after many years, that I understand inherently why this country does not work for me. Strangely enough being part of this board has helped me to understand this. For America to work for you, you have to be OK with the doctor on United Airlines being bloodied up and violently dragged off that infamous United Airlines flight. This goes way beyond mere protesting of the United Airlines brand - we could be talking about any brand here, realistically. What has dawned on me is that to believe in America in it's current form you have to either be OK with this violent treatment of a legally paid passenger OR be willing to look the other way. I am unable to do either, and realistically, I am doomed to never fit into this society other than at a surface level, and this only provided I keep my mouth shut.
No snark here - I really have to thank both United Airlines and also the conservatives on this board for making this crystal clear to me. At a very basic level I just don't fit into this society as I am unwilling to gloss over, ignore, or look the other way regarding such callous and heinous injustice. For me there are no excuses for United Airlines and this society, if one wishes to fit in, expects one to make up excuses or just find some other way to go along with intense injustice. No can do. At least I get this on a level down to my DNA now. Rob
PS I just came back to add that I'm not complaining here - I'm very grateful that I don't fit into this society now that I see this more clearly and I very much like what this says about me as a person. Thanks to those persons and the United Airlines Brand who helped me see this.
Arguments for the court, not for on the plane, unless your a lawyer. As an example, I have seen a lawyer go through a police DUI checkpoint and he knew what buttons he could press to push the issue. One of the officers recognized him and knew to leave it alone. But I also know of horror stories where lawyers crossed the line. The average Joe, I wouldn't recommend armchair lawyering.
I absolutely agree with you. Once United had decided to use violence to get him off the plane it was game over and his options were to either give up or be bloody right, to warp an English phrase. His likelihood of winning was roughly the same as the people who think that they will be able to successfully use their second amendment rights if the time ever comes to overthrow our government. Which is to say, pretty much zero. My point was only that United was wrong and he was right. It wasn't that that means anything until the inevitable trial.
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 7:49am
Arguments for the court, not for on the plane, unless your a lawyer. As an example, I have seen a lawyer go through a police DUI checkpoint and he knew what buttons he could press to push the issue. One of the officers recognized him and knew to leave it alone. But I also know of horror stories where lawyers crossed the line. The average Joe, I wouldn't recommend armchair lawyering.
So your d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't protest and hope economically this airline is destroyed financially and ruins your zip codes major employer? And this is because of some imaginary self imposed class system, you believe is out to get you? No, no obligation other then what you self impose upon yourself.
No one can help you with what YOU believe. That is up to YOU. I deal with real people, in real life. Some victims of rape, incest, attempted murder, burglary, theft, etc. Others are perpetrators, Pedophile, murderers, thieves, abusive people of various sorts. You wish to retaliate for what YOU perceive as an injustice, go ahead, what can you do other then form a protest in front of your computer (like to see that,:laff:)!
You cannot force others to go with you (inlaw's and that is their choice). So are you going to actually get information about immigrating to there while you are there, or is there something that is going to make you a victim and unable to do that?:doh::treadmill:My in laws do wish to leave the US (my husband's parents) and even my mother is thinking this country is getting to be too much for her to deal with - the United Airlines incident was just one of many things making her feel ill at ease about remaining in the United States. It would be easier for her to remain here given her age of 75 - she's getting up there to adjust to a new society, you know? My point here is that no forcing in needed in this case. As to my husband, he sees this country for what it is, is here to save money, and the only really nice thing he has to say about it is that he's grateful it's not as violent as Mexico - yet. As to the other issues in your post, I will come back to them later. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 7:58am
Could you at least point to arguments? He has yet to even state what "human rights" were violated.Ummm.....you really are OK with Dr. Dao being blooded up and violently dragged off that United Airlines flight??? Ay carumba, all I can say is that I'm sorry if that is truly the case, and that my mind reels with this - if it indeed the case that you are truly OK with how this Doctor was treated by United Airlines. Rob
iris lilies
4-16-17, 8:22am
Ummm.....you really are OK with Dr. Dao being blooded up and violently dragged off that United Airlines flight??? Ay carumba, all I can say is that I'm sorry if that is truly the case, and that my mind reels with this - if it indeed the case that you are truly OK with how this Doctor was treated by United Airlines. Rob
Of course I am not "OK" with the passenger in this case being bloodied while dragged out. It is too bad he didn't go on his own steam, he could have saved himself grief and injury. It is too bad he was injured while being removed. And OF COURSE it is a public relations nightmare for United Airlines.
I wonder how how much of his stubbornness in not leaving the plane had to do with privilege associated with his decades of class privilege as a physician, married to a physician? But given his immigrant background, hard to know. He had to be very hard working (and stubborn! Haha) to get where he is.
Rob, you mention upthread an idea of this being an assault on the lower classes. You are all wet for that idea, this guy isn't a member of your downtrodden brethren..
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 8:33am
Just going off the title of this thread "Protesting is good for the soul"
Not my soul so I resent being lumped into that statement a little. Turning on the news every day and seeing some new protest have it's 10 minutes of fame is just getting to me. I don't see the point other than the person who invented the "I protest...everything" T-shirt. That guy (or girl) is making some bucks. I know in history there were professional mourners paid to mourn at funerals...are there professional protesters that just hop from protest to protest? Putting on the ugly face, throwing their fist and trash in the air. I see public protests as mainly costing a lot of money. Ambulance and crew on standby, added police to break up fights and process disorderly, extra trash pick up, construction repairs, etc.
Rob, you mentioned how many in your zip-code depend on the airport for their income. If your airport loses United how many will be affected in your community? Every time we lose an airline it affects price of remaining airlines, available seats, etc... Heck, a bad few days of weather leaves people stranded for days because there aren't enough seats available...you really want that worse? I only see protesting this as having negative effect on future costs to us paying customers.
I know United's goal was to get out of the gate. The ripple effect is huge when a plane is late out of the gate. People protested over tarmac times, if they missed their take-off slot more delay problems. Yes. Everyone knows it could of been handled differently. Yes, Chicago security is crazy but they deal with crazy. No one wants to spend an extra hour in Chicago airport but why didn't people volunteer? Every time I've volunteered it worked to my benefit. I think what bothered me most is that everyone on the plane was quick to grab their phone and record but not do anything personally. Kind of like the video awhile back where there was an emergency un-boarding and everyone spent time videoing and grabbing personal belongings and luggage out of bins instead of getting off the plane. I would of gladly given up my seat and have in the past. People are just too darn selfish anymore it's all more about me and how everything affects me than looking for the good of man-kind. No wonder I barely turn on the news anymore.
Right now might be the best time to get a good deal and good treatment on a United flight. I'd give them a chance if it meant I could save some $. And I'd be sure to say "thank you" to the flight crew and step up and volunteer if they call for anyone to do so.With all due respect, Float On, I am going to agree to disagree with you. If for no other reason, I see protesting as a very good thing in the sense that is a relief valve for everyday people confronted with the true inequality and injustice that the United States dishes out while hypocritically calling itself a beacon of freedom and opportunity. Perhaps protesting in and of itself will not accomplish much, but if this relief valve were to be taken away, imagine how much more violence and crime there would be.
I do agree with your point about professional protesters to a point - but also I disagree, too. Let me explain. Last Fall I participated in a few protests of the Wells Fargo Brand when their illegal behaviors were brought to light. Now that my season is winding down and I have a little more time, and now that heinous injustice has taken place about this United Airlines plane in question, I am protesting against United Airlines, too. Does this make me a "professional" protester? Where is the line drawn as to what constitutes protesting "professionally"? Both situations above - Wells Fargo and United - deeply shame me to be an American citizen as they show what America really is all about under the nice sounding words. True, not everyone nor every brand stoops to these levels, I will grant that.....but this behavior is increasingly common and the lack of human rights behind it and the expectation that we as citizens should be OK with the lack of rights behind it - No. I can't give this/do this. I deserve better, and I hold myself to a higher standard. This is non negotiable for me. Long story short, at least protesting is a chance for me to legally voice my anger and rage at the system for allowing such to take place, for even ENCOURAGING such to take place. What is so bad about my protesting then, when framed this way?
As to United's impact in the 85006, it is minimal as United has a minimal imprint on Sky Harbour (the Phoenix airport). United is not one of the big players here - those would be American (due to it's takeover of US Airways which was headquartered here) and Southwest, which is the dominant player in aviation here. The major airlines are all represented here with minimal imprints for most, with a few international airlines too, such as British Airways with it's one direct flight to London. At any rate, United could leave this airport and another airline could take over it's slots and there would be no real consequence due to the minimal imprint United has here. That said, you have a point regarding United Airlines in zip codes similar to the 85006 in communities in which United has a big imprint. I'm not sure but I think Houston and Chicago are big United imprint cities? I don't have a quick answer for you other than at least in Texas at the moment it's not hard to find a lower end replacement job. In Chicago to lose such a job would bite, I will give you that.
About people not getting up to volunteer to get off the plane and smartphone videoing instead - let us be grateful that such took place. The smartphone video will help Dr. Dao's litigation against the United Airlines Brand - it also shows the world a true side of the United States and gives the world a chance to debate if it wants to emulate this American behavior or not - and for all we know, positive change may be forced upon the airline industry via consumer anger and rage spilling over into either new more consumer friendly airline laws and/or legal consumer retaliation impacting corporate balance sheets. Really, a smartphone that is fully charged can be such an effective tool against what America has become that I'm of the opinion it should be mandatory that all adults have one on them at all times for self protection. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 8:51am
It won't be long until the doctor and CEO of United will be shown shanking hands and all smiles. A few Chicago cops may be reprimanded and all will be forgotten. The doctor will get a 6 or very low 7 figure settlement and gag order. No one will remember this in a few months.With all due respect, I disagree. I won't be forgetting this incident ever - not for the remainder of my life. Should United Airlines ever come up in conversation for the remainder of my life, I will say something along the lines of - yeah, that airline that likes to see their passengers viciously attacked - or something similar. Here is a case in point. I have for many years advised people to avoid State Farm insurance as over 20 years ago they lost a lawsuit in regards to discrimination against female employees. I have been able to steer a few customers away from State Farm over the years by advising them of this lawsuit and by asking if this is a company that would like to subsidize, given their discriminatory nature as proven via the years ago lawsuit. Point being - I don't let such go and have no problem both remembering such incidents and in using them against a particular brand in question. I consider this a public service of sorts....kind of like friends don't let friends drive drunk, but in this case, friends don't let friends fly United's hostile and threatening skies. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 8:59am
I do agree with that. I few hundred lousy bucks would have saved them a ton of money lost in angry customers.And this is at the crux of why United Airlines is facing the nightmare that it is. Being too cheap to part with a few hundred dollars certainly cost them much, much, much more in terms of nightmares, aggravation, and monetarily, also. I seriously doubt their reputation, which was not all that great to begin with, will ever fully recover. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 9:24am
Of course I am not "OK" with the passenger in this case being bloodied while dragged out. It is too bad he didn't go on his own steam, he could have saved himself grief and injury. It is too bad he was injured while being removed. And OF COURSE it is a public relations nightmare for United Airlines.
I wonder how how much of his stubbornness in not leaving the plane had to do with privilege associated with his decades of class privilege as a physician, married to a physician? But given his immigrant background, hard to know. He had to be very hard working (and stubborn! Haha) to get where he is.
Rob, you mention upthread an idea of this being an assault on the lower classes. You are all wet for that idea, this guy isn't a member of your downtrodden brethren..I'm sorry if I was unclear, IL. This is not an attack per se on the lower social classes, and I did not intend to make such a statement. I only stated that coming from the lower social classes, I am morally obligated to protest against United Airlines and it's very aggressively hostile and ultimately financially unwise actions. It doesn't matter to me which social class the victim comes from - coming from my background I see myself as morally obligated to protest. Who else has a more honest take on the United States than someone from the lower social classes, when you get right down to it? This is why it is so important for people such as myself to protest brands such as United when they show themselves for what they truly are. Rob
Really, a smartphone that is fully charged can be such an effective tool against what America has become that I'm of the opinion it should be mandatory that all adults have one on them at all times for self protection. Rob
Mandatory? As in, with force of law? As in, if you refuse to have one, armed agents of the state will eventually show up to drag you off, and will kill you if you resist sufficiently, as they inexorably move through their response force continuum? Nice! I love to see what sorts of things people are willing to kill others for... Or rather, the sorts of things they are willing to have their hired help kill for...
[QUOTE=Alan;267327]Just saw this on Facebook moments before reading your post. On the spur of the moment and with your history of hundreds of similarly themed posts, it seems appropriate. ...
For many, if not most of us, emigrating is not possible, so we do what we can to change the system. Including protesting.
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 9:29am
[QUOTE=Alan;267327]Just saw this on Facebook moments before reading your post. On the spur of the moment and with your history of hundreds of similarly themed posts, it seems appropriate. ...
For many, if not most of us, emigrating is not possible, so we do what we can to change the system. Including protesting.I wish there was a "like"button I could click for this true and intelligent post. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 9:30am
Mandatory? As in, with force of law? As in, if you refuse to have one, armed agents of the state will eventually show up to drag you off, and will kill you if you resist sufficiently, as they inexorably move through their response force continuum? Nice! I love to see what sorts of things people are willing to kill others for... Or rather, the sorts of things they are willing to have their hired help kill for...??? Bae, with all due respect, ???, how did you go from a mandatory smartphone to armed agents of the state, from zero to sixty in less than five seconds? Just trying to understand. Rob
Do you understand what happens when "mandatory" gets enforced against a non compliant person?
Do you understand your moral skin-in-the-game when you ask that something be made "mandatory" in our laws?
iris lilies
4-16-17, 9:37am
??? Bae, with all due respect, ???, how did you go from a mandatory smartphone to armed agents of the state, from zero to sixty in less than five seconds? Just trying to understand. Rob
Words have meaning. "Mandatory" has a meaning.
You used it. What do you think it means?
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 9:39am
Do you understand what happens when "mandatory" gets enforced against a non compliant person?
Do you understand your moral skin-in-the-game when you ask that something be made "mandatory" in our laws?Ok then, to be clear: I meant mandatory in the sense that to have a fully charged smartphone on you at all times would be an act of common sense in a country such as the United States. So Mandatory here equals conforming to common sense. Not to armed agents of the state. I hope this is now clear? Rob
PS I came back to add that the smartphone video taken aboard that infamous United Airlines plane? A wonderful bit of human rights video in the sense that without it, the United Airlines Brand would be free to continue to victimize paid passengers.
Ok then, to be clear: I meant mandatory in the sense that to have a fully charged smartphone on you at all times would be an act of common sense in a country such as the United States. So Mandatory here equals conforming to common sense. Not to armed agents of the state. I hope this is now clear? Rob
That is why I asked the second question in the post you responded to:
" Mandatory? As in, with force of law? "
Thank you for clarifying your Humpty-Dumpty approach to language.
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 9:46am
That is why I asked the second question in the post you responded to:
" Mandatory? As in, with force of law? "
Thank you for clarifying your Humpty-Dumpty approach to language.We all have our flaws, Bae. At least in my case, of the two of us, I am the one doing something for human rights via showing up at the airport to protest the recent United Airlines sitch. I'm doing something......can you make that statement? This is meant as food for thought and not criticism. Rob
We all have our flaws, Bae. At least in my case, of the two of us, I am the one doing something for human rights via showing up at the airport to protest the recent United Airlines sitch. I'm doing something......can you make that statement? This is meant as food for thought and not criticism. Rob
I've been in Norway and Finland for about a month doing fieldwork, in part documenting LGBTQ traditions in the Sami shamanic practices. And in my spare time visiting the various Resistance, War, and Holocaust museums/centers in the cities.
So, no, nothing as amazing as protesting United Airlines for the outrage-of-the-day...
gimmethesimplelife
4-16-17, 10:00am
I've been in Norway and Finland for about a month doing fieldwork, in part documenting LGBTQ traditions in the Sami shamanic practices. And in my spare time visiting the various Resistance, War, and Holocaust museums/centers in the cities.
So, no, nothing as amazing as protesting United Airlines for the outrage-of-the-day...Fair enough, Bae...you are out there doing something and even though we don't often agree, I do respect that. That said, my protest against United Airlines goes beyond The Outrage Of The Day category......it is completely unacceptable that a paid passenger could be treated this way. Believable, as I see America for what it is, but still very much unacceptable, and at a level way way way beyond Outrage Of The Day. Rob
For many, if not most of us, emigrating is not possible, so we do what we can to change the system. Including protesting.
I have no problem with protesting, well, protesting done smartly. I engage in private protests daily through my choices of companies I support, movies I will not pay to watch or philosophies I refuse to accept as mainstream. This all seems right and proper to me.
In this particular case, protesting United Airlines for their foolishness seems proper as well, although I don't understand all of the ancillary motivations Rob has mentioned. A stupid action by one company and it's agents is seemingly seen as an assault on social classes and a condemnation of an entire country, not just by Rob but according to him, by an entire zip code as well. It doesn't pass the reasonable person test.
Based upon years of commentary through hundreds of public posts on this forum railing against a long held perception of second class citizen status (starting at the age of 8, or sometimes 10, it seems to vary), I'm thinking a little root cause analysis may be in order.
ToomuchStuff
4-16-17, 10:15am
I think, after many years, that I understand inherently why this country does not work for me. Strangely enough being part of this board has helped me to understand this.
So you looked in the mirror, read your own posts and realized it isn't the world, but you.:idea:
Oh wait, back to what others consider delusional behavior....
My in laws do wish to leave the US (my husband's parents) and even my mother is thinking this country is getting to be too much for her to deal with - the United Airlines incident was just one of many things making her feel ill at ease about remaining in the United States. It would be easier for her to remain here given her age of 75 - she's getting up there to adjust to a new society, you know?
Well, they aren't on here, so no, we don't know. All I could say from that is they may be not wanting to argue with you and patting you on your head and sending you on your way, or they could be actually agreeing with you.
No, she is your excuse, crutch, self imposing restriction you will use to complain, until she passes, and then you will probably use the excuse "I am getting up there in years, and it is easier". If she really wanted to, then it would be more uncomfortable to stay then to go, this goes for you as well.
Excuses, excuses, excused. Life isn't easy and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo
Ummm.....you really are OK with Dr. Dao being blooded up and violently dragged off that United Airlines flight???Can you show anyone's actual words who said that here? Self delusion I think, and wanting to put words in peoples mouths.
With all due respect, Float On, I am going to agree to disagree with you. If for no other reason, I see protesting as a very good thing in the sense that is a relief valve for everyday people confronted with the true inequality and injustice that the United States dishes out while hypocritically calling itself a beacon of freedom and opportunity. Perhaps protesting in and of itself will not accomplish much, but if this relief valve were to be taken away, imagine how much more violence and crime there would be.
I do agree with your point about professional protesters to a point - but also I disagree, too. Let me explain. Last Fall I participated in a few protests of the Wells Fargo Brand when their illegal behaviors were brought to light. Now that my season is winding down and I have a little more time, and now that heinous injustice has taken place about this United Airlines plane in question, I am protesting against United Airlines, too. Does this make me a "professional" protester? Where is the line drawn as to what constitutes protesting "professionally"? I deserve better, and I hold myself to a higher standard. This is non negotiable for me.
Really, a smartphone that is fully charged can be such an effective tool against what America has become that I'm of the opinion it should be mandatory that all adults have one on them at all times for self protection. RobProtesting is about freedom of speech, assembly and expression. It does not mean get your way, or things are always fair, or even that you have a choice in the matter (some things are not your responsibility or right). Professional protester is a job, with pay of some kind. You "season" leaves you open for a "season" to get that gig. You hold yourself to such a high standard as "lower social class">8):doh:, good grief!
By the way, where is my check from you for my mandatory smart phone. You mandate it, you supply it and the funds for it, you better get off the board and find a better paying or work more hours job, since you have multiple people here, you will be supplying. And my phone choice is a Blackphone if I have to carry a smartphone.
With all due respect, I disagree. I won't be forgetting this incident ever - not for the remainder of my life. Should United Airlines ever come up in conversation for the remainder of my life, I will say something along the lines of - yeah, that airline that likes to see their passengers viciously attacked - or something similar. Here is a case in point. I have for many years advised people to avoid State Farm insurance as over 20 years ago they lost a lawsuit in regards to discrimination against female employees. I have been able to steer a few customers away from State Farm over the years by advising them of this lawsuit and by asking if this is a company that would like to subsidize, given their discriminatory nature as proven via the years ago lawsuit. Point being - I don't let such go and have no problem both remembering such incidents and in using them against a particular brand in question. I consider this a public service of sorts....kind of like friends don't let friends drive drunk, but in this case, friends don't let friends fly United's hostile and threatening skies. Rob
This means your not rewarding changed behavior, not that your punishing them for bad behavior, as that is what the lawsuit is. I don't understand how you think you will find any company of size that everybody will only do things you agree with, or there is no bad people in. By that standard, did you ever steal anything? (as a kid, early lesson, taken a pen or pencil from work, etc) Iris Lillies view that you put words in her mouth by your title, instead of protesting is good for MY soul. Well now your a thief and should have no rights to this board, as no one appointed you to speak for them here.
Forgetting, forgiving, and rewarding positive behaviors are not the same things.
ToomuchStuff
4-16-17, 10:30am
Ok then, to be clear: I meant mandatory in the sense that to have a fully charged smartphone on you at all times would be an act of common sense in a country such as the United States. So Mandatory here equals conforming to common sense.
Common Sense is an oxymoron, that people can't even agree to what it means. I view it as more important to be able to pay my bills, support myself, etc. then to have and electronic phallus that I see people stroking all day, instead of doing their work. I know I find trying to pull myself up from working class (and to heck with social class), as something I would consider common sense. I also see learning and trying to use language properly so people actually know what I am saying, common sense.
Teacher Terry
4-16-17, 2:15pm
Rob, I don't know many people that think that what was done to the doctor was right. However, to hope an entire company folds by the actions of a few employees is ridiculous. These big companies employ many people and shit is going to happen. Yes United's CEO responded stupidly and will probably lose his job and I am ok with that. This country give us the right to speak freely, protest, etc. People daily are risking their lives to get here. All countries have problems. There is no utopia because all humans are flawed as will be the governments, etc.
So the latest news is United recently kicked off a couple who were going on a honeymoon to Costa Rica because they would not listen to flight attendant instructions to return to their assigned seats. They repeatedly tried to sit in upgraded seats--not first class but "Economy Plus." They didn't think it was a big deal.
Yes, United is the Big Bad Airline, but look what they have to put up with. These people didn't pay for upgraded seats, but they thought they were entitled to them, just because. They didn't obey the flight attendants' instructions to move back to their own row. As a frequent flier, these kinds of fliers drive me nuts. They're the ones who will put their carry-on in the overheads in the front of the plane even though their seats are in the back, just so they don't have to carry them down the aisle. They're the ones who will not obey a simple request to turn off their cell phones. It may sound like such a stupid thing to kick off a couple because they wanted to steal seats they didn't pay for, but how is that different from any other kind of purchase where you take what you pay for and you're not entitled to more just because you feel like it?
I could never be a flight attendant. People can be so selfish and rude on airlines.
gimmethesimplelife
4-17-17, 11:06am
So the latest news is United recently kicked off a couple who were going on a honeymoon to Costa Rica because they would not listen to flight attendant instructions to return to their assigned seats. They repeatedly tried to sit in upgraded seats--not first class but "Economy Plus." They didn't think it was a big deal.
Yes, United is the Big Bad Airline, but look what they have to put up with. These people didn't pay for upgraded seats, but they thought they were entitled to them, just because. They didn't obey the flight attendants' instructions to move back to their own row. As a frequent flier, these kinds of fliers drive me nuts. They're the ones who will put their carry-on in the overheads in the front of the plane even though their seats are in the back, just so they don't have to carry them down the aisle. They're the ones who will not obey a simple request to turn off their cell phones. It may sound like such a stupid thing to kick off a couple because they wanted to steal seats they didn't pay for, but how is that different from any other kind of purchase where you take what you pay for and you're not entitled to more just because you feel like it?
I could never be a flight attendant. People can be so selfish and rude on airlines.Catherine, I'm glad you posted this as reading this inspired me to do further research and this does seem to be a reliable account of what took place on this flight. If so, I can't hold this against the United Airlines Brand, much as i'd like to. Just as you need "standing to sue" to be able to sue, an activist such as myself should have "standing to engage" in activism - i.e., a justifiable reason for doing so. This is not such an example and I will admit I was all fired up about this after hearing about it at 6 AM this morning in line for discounted menudo at the Mexican Deli at Food City.
United Airlines really does have a lot of my friends and neighbors extremely pissed off as what happened to Dr. Dao is a perfect example for many people of both what is wrong with America and how America truly is, but in this particular case I can't fault United and there are those out there faulting United for this. I wish to be reasonable in my activism and this particular incidence does not lend me "standing to engage" in activism. I continue activism against the United Airlines brand but I will not add this incident to the list of grievances against the brand. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-17-17, 11:15am
Rob, I don't know many people that think that what was done to the doctor was right. However, to hope an entire company folds by the actions of a few employees is ridiculous. These big companies employ many people and shit is going to happen. Yes United's CEO responded stupidly and will probably lose his job and I am ok with that. This country give us the right to speak freely, protest, etc. People daily are risking their lives to get here. All countries have problems. There is no utopia because all humans are flawed as will be the governments, etc.I agree with this general jist of what you have posted and I further agree that when humans are involved, there will be flaws. Points granted. Where I veer off course with what you have posted is that I personally believe that what happened to Dr. Dao is a perfect example of how America really is and what America truly stands for. Maybe not quite so much in the past, but these days, definitely. This is one reason so many in the 85006 are out for the economic collapse of the brand and are wishing their planes are sold to competitors for pennies on the dollar - to send a message that there are limits and there are consequences for exceeding the limits.
It may be unfortunate for the brand, but United Airlines has really created a situation in which those of the lower social classes - and per IRS statistics, over half of all Americans make less than 30K a year these days - see United Airlines as a perfect example of why America doesn't work for them and of course, they are filled with understandable ill will. I'd advise all corporations going forward, no exceptions, to put a lid on such behavior as the anger out there against the inequality and blatant lack of opportunity in the United States is only increasing, and more and more people are rightfully directing the blame at corporations.....don't be surprised in the coming years to see much more anti-corporate activism against other brands displaying such blatant disrespect for human rights and human dignity. Rob
PS Came back to add - given that I have no faith whatsoever that corporations will learn lasting lessons from the United Airlines fiasco, and given that I believe there will be a marked increase in anti-corporate protesting going forward, and given that I am now 50 years of age - provided I keep my health (?), my later years before leaving the US could be quite interesting.....I mean this in a positive way, too.
catherine
4-17-17, 11:34am
Catherine, I'm glad you posted this as reading this inspired me to do further research and this does seem to be a reliable account of what took place on this flight. If so, I can't hold this against the United Airlines Brand, much as i'd like to. Just as you need "standing to sue" to be able to sue, an activist such as myself should have "standing to engage" in activism - i.e., a justifiable reason for doing so. This is not such an example and I will admit I was all fired up about this after hearing about it at 6 AM this morning in line for discounted menudo at the Mexican Deli at Food City.
United Airlines really does have a lot of my friends and neighbors extremely pissed off as what happened to Dr. Dao is a perfect example for many people of both what is wrong with America and how America truly is, but in this particular case I can't fault United and there are those out there faulting United for this. I wish to be reasonable in my activism and this particular incidence does not lend me "standing to engage" in activism. I continue activism against the United Airlines brand but I will not add this incident to the list of grievances against the brand. Rob
I thought that this headline simply made good media fodder, given the incident last week--and of course the headline didn't suggest that the couple might have been jerks. I don't want to disparage your activism either, because I'm not always waving the banner for Corporate America believe me! I just thought that there really were two sides to the Dr. Dao story. I myself have been in situations in which they called for involuntary bumping. If they had bumped me from a flight that would have delayed my getting to work I would have been really upset, but I usually leave wiggle room (i.e. I don't take the last flight that's going to get me there). I don't count on the airlines to get me to work on time.
With flying, sh*t happens all the time. Just a week or two ago--the weekend of April 7, my DH and two of my sons were supposed to go to Florida for a golf trip. They had paid quite a bit of non-refundable monies for the flight and for the house rental. Then the weather intervened, and it happened to be Spring Break weekend, and the result was my DH wound up being the ONLY one who made it down there (he flew United). Meanwhile, my son and his two friends could not get rebooked on Spirit Air after the flight was cancelled and they lost the whole weekend. My other son from Burlington missed his connection in Newark, and his golf clubs wound up in Houston. DH wound up turning around and coming home because there were no flights for the others all weekend. It was a real bummer. I could blame the airline, or I could blame God for the weather, or all those kids going to Ft. Lauderdale. But it was just an unfortunate turn of events.
I see that United has put new policies in place, so I hope they've learned from their mistakes.
Teacher Terry
4-17-17, 11:45am
Because shit happens is one reason when I go to KS for dental work I leave myself lots of wiggle room. I have to fly through Denver as there are no non-stops. So I leave on Wed for a Fri appointment.
I agree with this general jist of what you have posted and I further agree that when humans are involved, there will be flaws. Points granted. Where I veer off course with what you have posted is that I personally believe that what happened to Dr. Dao is a perfect example of how America really is and what America truly stands for. Maybe not quite so much in the past, but these days, definitely. This is one reason so many in the 85006 are out for the economic collapse of the brand and are wishing their planes are sold to competitors for pennies on the dollar - to send a message that there are limits and there are consequences for exceeding the limits.
It may be unfortunate for the brand, but United Airlines has really created a situation in which those of the lower social classes - and per IRS statistics, over half of all Americans make less than 30K a year these days - see United Airlines as a perfect example of why America doesn't work for them and of course, they are filled with understandable ill will.
I have real trouble believing that the impoverished masses of any zip code are seething with outrage over this incident. I doubt many have no greater concern than the treatment of a doctor by an airline. The whole thing seems more like a "rich peoples' problem" to me. If "the lower social classes" see this as "the perfect example of why America doesn't work for them", then we are in better shape than I thought we were.
One thing UA might want to do is to make it a policy that all doctors fly free (since having a doctor on board is a good thing) and that all honeymooners get upgraded for free.
That's my feedback for UA, also free!
ApatheticNoMore
4-17-17, 12:07pm
I bet any study would show the poor in the U.S. don't travel much, that it's really outside their realm. The exception would be seeing family I guess. And even then how do they travel? How does the cost of a plane ticket compare to greyhound bus? I can't say I've compared them, might not be much difference.
(i.e. I don't take the last flight that's going to get me there). I don't count on the airlines to get me to work on time.
but how is one to even know this if they don't fly a lot? Don't assume frequent flyer knowledge applies to non-frequent flyers. And if the plane service is more reliable elsewhere (I don't know if it is but train and bus service is) don't expect foreigners to know it either. I've taken Amtrak a bunch of times, I KNOW the trains almost never run on time, that the schedule published is an idealized schedule assuming the normal delays don't happen, but people who have never taken the train before don't know this.
catherine
4-17-17, 12:20pm
but how is one to even know this if they don't fly a lot? Don't assume frequent flyer knowledge applies to non-frequent flyers. And if the plane service is more reliable elsewhere don't expect foreigners to know it either.
I just think it's common sense to allow extra time. The most reliable airline in the world will cancel or delay flights due to bad weather. I think Dr. Dao's extreme behavior was.... extreme. Just as United should have handled things differently, so should have he.
Tybee, UA doesn't owe those honeymooners an apology or a nickel towards a free flight.
Catherine, my point was about proactive public relations, not about what they owed anyone, or if they owed anyone.
catherine
4-17-17, 12:40pm
Catherine, my point was about proactive public relations, not about what they owed anyone, or if they owed anyone.
Yeah, I get that, but I wouldn't want to encourage bad behavior by other people who may want to squat in upgraded seats :)
One thing UA might want to do is to make it a policy that all doctors fly free (since having a doctor on board is a good thing) and that all honeymooners get upgraded for free.
That's my feedback for UA, also free!
I'd rather have a paramedic or a wilderness/remote EMT on a plane helping me for a sudden medical event than a random doctor. The event I helped with mid-air had a doctor present, an OB, who was useless for the situation, and who had no diagnostic skills. (Problem turned out to be blood-sugar related, simply going through the drilled checklist produced the answer and provided a remedy. Doctor was still scrambling trying to figure out how to take a blood pressure under stress...)
After looking up the crime rate in the 85006 I'd be much more concerned with my neighbors than a airline.
I agree with Bae. Just like nurses specialize, so do docs. We get good at what we do everyday, and we only do a tiny percentage of the whole thing. Additionally, docs delegate to nurses and nurses delegate to techs - so the simple but essential assessments outside of a controlled hospital or clinic setting can confound the best of us.
I'd take an EMT any time over a doc or nurse.
And that was way off topic but I find it more interesting than the rest of this arguing. :D
gimmethesimplelife
4-17-17, 9:40pm
Off to protest United Airlines again....I understand there is donated horchata once again and also carne asada being provided tonight for the protesters. Tonight was a bit of a moral slash ethical decision for me as I had to turn down a shift offered to me to participate.....I did the survival math, factored in my Mother and how she raised me to be, factored in my husband and in-laws, factored in how dicey health care has been in this country for me before Obamacare, and made the only logical choice and decided to protest. Of course with a fully charged smartphone to download any issues that hopefully will not arise to the ACLU and to the Internet at large.
Gotta say though this whole United Airlines issue has made me closer to all my relatives, my husband and in-laws, my Mother, and beyond that, to my friends and neighbors in the 85006. Truly I wear my zip code tonight as a badge of honor. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-17-17, 9:45pm
After looking up the crime rate in the 85006 I'd be much more concerned with my neighbors than a airline.I beg to differ with you. I'd trust a random resident of the 85006 over a random resident of a much higher class, lower crime rate zip code any day. Reason? The type of crime committed in the much "nicer" zip code. America has taught me, barring evidence to the contrary, to trust recent immigrants and lower income folks over those in the "nicer" areas. All that really differs is that the residents of the nicer zip codes will serve lesser sentences for any crimes committed (and caught for) and will tend to have longer life spans in "nicer" surroundings. No thanks. I'll take the 85006 any day over such hypocracy. Rob
http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/zip-code/arizona/phoenix/85006
gimmethesimplelife
4-17-17, 10:11pm
http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/zip-code/arizona/phoenix/85006Ay carumba, not much time to respond as we are pulling onto Buckeye Road on the protester carpool (real close to parking and the meetup area/networking area for tonight's protest, and I understand that we have a large turnout from one of Tempe's (a suburb, close in) struggling zip codes). I don't understand your point - in the sense that I have lived in the 85006 for years with no crime issues - nor have any of my immediate neighbors - so your data to date does not apply to my block. I would live in the 85006 ANY day over some of the Valley's "nicer" zip codes. Rob
It just seems strange that you have a problem with America, but are happy to live in a poor, high crime area.
Have fun at your protest, I have not seen any reports of protest in the news. Stay safe.
iris lilies
4-17-17, 10:51pm
http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/zip-code/arizona/phoenix/85006
Wow, that source shows the 85006 to be higher in crimes against persons than my zip code here in the murder capital of the U.S.
Yay, Rob! I bow to your superior toughness.
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 8:34am
Wow, that source shows the 85006 to be higher in crimes against persons than my zip code here in the murder capital of the U.S.
Yay, Rob! I bow to your superior toughness.IL, I've always been a strong person in many ways. You can see that here in some of my posts as I am quite capable of holding my own against opposition and don't at all mind holding unpopular beliefs providing that I truly believe in said beliefs.
But to the main point of your post here - I'm not buying that crime is this bad in the 85006.....I have had nothing stolen or had any criminal incidents against me take place since living in the 85006 years ago. I do know of some folks who have had their cars stolen - Phoenix was an auto theft capital back in the mid to late 90's but I undertand that's cooled off a bit now. Drugs would be the big deal here - selling and possession and of course crimes committed for money to buy drugs - but like I said, I have not been a crime victim since living here and my block has been crime free (other than one neighbor having some patio furniture stolen two years ago). A lot of this has to do with not being out and about late at night - thereby protecting yourself from both thugs AND the police (in the 85006 we often debate which group is worse - police or those they arrest?) Having nothing to do with drugs in any way shape or form helps, too, as does being on good terms with all your neighbors and getting involved in the neighborhood. It's really not all that bad in the 85006. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 8:40am
It just seems strange that you have a problem with America, but are happy to live in a poor, high crime area.
Have fun at your protest, I have not seen any reports of protest in the news. Stay safe.It's not strange if you stop and think.....I know too much about how America really works to ever fit into a "nicer" area - and in a said "nicer" area there would be no peace for me as I would ALWAYS feel the need to watch my back 24/7/365, once again because I know too much about America and how it really works. At least I don't have to watch my back 24/7/365 in the 86006 and here I often witness human decency and kindness in action - it would be too soul depleting to give that up to live in a Watch Your Back 24/7/365 zip code. No can do. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 8:58am
I have real trouble believing that the impoverished masses of any zip code are seething with outrage over this incident. I doubt many have no greater concern than the treatment of a doctor by an airline. The whole thing seems more like a "rich peoples' problem" to me. If "the lower social classes" see this as "the perfect example of why America doesn't work for them", then we are in better shape than I thought we were.Some of the anger is due to the fact that it is so almost impossible these days to accomplish anything in America, so why even bother trying? I'm not sure I agree with the why bother trying part, but yes, it is almost impossible to accomplish anything in America. I can vouch for this personally and I see it every day in the 85006. However, here we have someone - a doctor - who has managed to make something of himself in the eyes of this highly questionable society - good for him. Look at how America treats him regardless!!! Were it not for smartphone video this incident would have been completely swept under the rug - such is how America works. The anger felt in the 85006 has a lot to do with how pointless and meaningless living in America truly is these days, and yes, there is a great deal of anger in the 85006 over this unfortunate United Airlines incident. The overall 85006 take is that this incident is yet more proof that America doesn't work for most of it's citizens/permanent residents unless they are in the 1 percent. Though there is also gratitude in the 85006 for smartphones being affordable now and trickling down to this zip codes so as to protect yourself against America and such incidents.
This is not a rich people's problem. This is a problem of an entire country really not working well for the majority of it's citizens/permanent residents, and of more and more of the country waking up to this fact. Rob
Off to protest United Airlines again....I understand there is donated horchata once again and also carne asada being provided tonight for the protesters. Tonight was a bit of a moral slash ethical decision for me as I had to turn down a shift offered to me to participate.....I did the survival math, factored in my Mother and how she raised me to be, factored in my husband and in-laws, factored in how dicey health care has been in this country for me before Obamacare, and made the only logical choice and decided to protest.
What's the logical connection between a doctor's spat with an airline and the state of American health care?
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 9:18am
What's the logical connection between a doctor's spat with an airline and the state of American health care?The link for me personally is this: Due to my fear of the United States (for not being worth affordable access to health care in the US before ObamaCare) i of course will factor these years of terror into any financial decision such as do I give up a shift to protest the United Airlines brand. Along with the other variables I mentioned that factored into my decision to protest again last night. Years of lack of access to health care will ALWAYS factor into any economic decision I make - I will NEVER be able to "unsee" these years. Would you realistically expect me to do otherwise, given that I am essentially a decent human being? Rob
Some of the anger is due to the fact that it is so almost impossible these days to accomplish anything in America, so why even bother trying? I'm not sure I agree with the why bother trying part, but yes, it is almost impossible to accomplish anything in America. I can vouch for this personally and I see it every day in the 85006. However, here we have someone - a doctor - who has managed to make something of himself in the eyes of this highly questionable society - good for him. Look at how America treats him regardless!!! Were it not for smartphone video this incident would have been completely swept under the rug - such is how America works. The anger felt in the 85006 has a lot to do with how pointless and meaningless living in America truly is these days, and yes, there is a great deal of anger in the 85006 over this unfortunate United Airlines incident. The overall 85006 take is that this incident is yet more proof that America doesn't work for most of it's citizens/permanent residents unless they are in the 1 percent. Though there is also gratitude in the 85006 for smartphones being affordable now and trickling down to this zip codes so as to protect yourself against America and such incidents.
This is not a rich people's problem. This is a problem of an entire country really not working well for the majority of it's citizens/permanent residents, and of more and more of the country waking up to this fact. Rob
Almost impossible to accomplish anything in America? You may be able to vouch for that personally, but there are millions of others who give the lie to that assertion every day. Many of them came here illegally to accomplish something.
"America" did not do anything to that doctor. America is not a person. You're freighting a single incident of bi-lateral stupidity with some kind of transcendent importance that simply doesn't exist in reality.
You may regard your own life in America as "pointless and meaningless", but I think you're making a generalization that doesn't apply to others. And blaming "America" for a pointless life is ridiculous. Meaning is not something that can be delivered by a government entitlement program.
The link for me personally is this: Due to my fear of the United States (for not being worth affordable access to health care in the US before ObamaCare) i of course will factor these years of terror into any financial decision such as do I give up a shift to protest the United Airlines brand. Along with the other variables I mentioned that factored into my decision to protest again last night. Years of lack of access to health care will ALWAYS factor into any economic decision I make - I will NEVER be able to "unsee" these years. Would you realistically expect me to do otherwise, given that I am essentially a decent human being? Rob
So you hate and fear America for failing to provide you with inexpensive health care. United Airlines is part of America. Therefore United Airlines is the enemy?
The link for me personally is this: Due to my fear of the United States (for not being worth affordable access to health care in the US before ObamaCare) i of course will factor these years of terror into any financial decision such as do I give up a shift to protest the United Airlines brand. Along with the other variables I mentioned that factored into my decision to protest again last night. Years of lack of access to health care will ALWAYS factor into any economic decision I make - I will NEVER be able to "unsee" these years. Would you realistically expect me to do otherwise, given that I am essentially a decent human being? Rob
So, even though the other citizens of the United States pay the majority of your health care needs through subsidies (which many of them do not qualify for), you still hate the United States? All this time later, I still fail to see the logic in that.
Your continuing resentment at not being served by your fellow Americans early enough and on a greater scale leads me to question your definition of "decent human being". Different outlooks I guess, but maybe that's just me.
The description of the festive atmosphere at your several protests, mainly through your emphasis on food and drink, makes me think the protests are more of a social outing in the 85006. A day off work is always cause for celebration, glad you're having fun.
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 9:44am
So, even though the other citizens of the United States pay the majority of your health care needs through subsidies (which many of them do not qualify for), you still hate the United States? All this time later, I still fail to see the logic in that.
Your continuing resentment at not being served by your fellow Americans early enough and on a greater scale leads me to question your definition of "decent human being". But maybe that's just me.
The description of the festive atmosphere at your several protests, mainly through your emphasis on food and drink, makes me think the protests are more of a social outing in the 85006. Glad you're having fun.Alan, a quick question for you: What is it about my insistence that if you wish to have my loyalty, I expect access to affordable health care for both myself and the masses in general? Every other developed country on this planet provides such access - why is my expectation for such as a price tag to anything remotely resembling loyalty such an issue/problem/inexcusable evil for conservatives such as yourself? This is something I will never understand from a basic, common sense perspective. Ball in your court, etc. Rob
PS Just came back to add that the protests are of course serious events, though there is some networking, meeting new people, socializing and getting to know others going on, and this does tend to center around food and drink, yes. This is just a portion of the protest and not the main reason for attending/participating, however. It's just one aspect of the experience and not the reason for the experience overall.
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 9:52am
So you hate and fear America for failing to provide you with inexpensive health care. United Airlines is part of America. Therefore United Airlines is the enemy?It is amazing to me how conservatives can not understand something to me which seems so simple as breathing air. Ay carumba. My point once again is that I will NEVER be able to "unsee" all the years of fear I lived in in America due to lack of access to affordable health care so that the wealthy could become wealthier - this is an abuse I would not have had to tolerate in ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD. (due to every other developed country, and even a few developing countries, offering access to affordable health care to citizens). I am incapable of forgiving America for this abuse - I believe in basic human rights and basic human dignity far too much to ever forgive such - so of course these years of needless terror so that others could become wealthier will factor into ANY financial decision I make. That's just living common sense, and that's also living my values. This stance is completely non-negotiable, as I believe in basic human rights and basic human dignity. Rob
Alan, a quick question for you: What is it about my insistence that if you wish to have my loyalty, I expect access to affordable health care for both myself and the masses in general? Every other developed country on this planet provides such access - why is my expectation for such as a price tag to anything remotely resembling loyalty such an issue/problem/inexcusable evil for conservatives such as yourself? This is something I will never understand from a basic, common sense perspective. Ball in your court, etc. Rob
I think there's value in self-reliance and a certain amount of selfishness in expecting others to shoulder your responsibilities. I don't think it should be encouraged by a redistributionist government, but rather reserved for those in need through no fault of their own.
And just so you know, I have no desire for anyone's loyalty, it comes at too high a cost.
http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/zip-code/arizona/phoenix/85006
I would've thought that with all his years in power that Sheriff Joe would've gotten things cleaned up by now. I guess that tent jail wasn't such a success after all.
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 10:17am
I would've thought that with all his years in power that Sheriff Joe would've gotten things cleaned up by now. I guess that tent jail wasn't such a success after all.LOL You said it.....I'm so glad to see Penzone in and the atrocity that is Tent City being dismantled. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 10:21am
I think there's value in self-reliance and a certain amount of selfishness in expecting others to shoulder your responsibilities. I don't think it should be encouraged by a redistributionist government, but rather reserved for those in need through no fault of their own.
And just so you know, I have no desire for anyone's loyalty, it comes at too high a cost.I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree with you, Alan. No great surprise here but I see your stance as causing this citizenship to be less competitive with/less desirable than many others due to access to health care issue (though I will admit for the winners under ObamaCare as IL calls them (and no snark here, I've already conceded that she has a point on this) things are not as dire as they once were). Now health care insecurity has spread upwards from the lower social classes so many more people are experiencing what i know about America already. Rob
It is amazing to me how conservatives can not understand something to me which seems so simple as breathing air. Ay carumba. My point once again is that I will NEVER be able to "unsee" all the years of fear I lived in in America due to lack of access to affordable health care so that the wealthy could become wealthier - this is an abuse I would not have had to tolerate in ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD. (due to every other developed country, and even a few developing countries, offering access to affordable health care to citizens). I am incapable of forgiving America for this abuse - I believe in basic human rights and basic human dignity far too much to ever forgive such - so of course these years of needless terror so that others could become wealthier will factor into ANY financial decision I make. That's just living common sense, and that's also living my values. This stance is completely non-negotiable, as I believe in basic human rights and basic human dignity. Rob
I understand you harbor a lot of resentment about the health care system. What I don't understand is how you apply that resentment to a dispute over a seat on a Chicago to Louisville flight.
Teacher Terry
4-18-17, 12:29pm
Like Alan I am for helping people that can't help themselves but not for helping those that don't want to work hard. I was young, poor and a single, divorced mom at one point. I could have went on welfare and received all sorts of freebies but instead I worked a crappy job to support my son and myself. I was lucky to have family help and went to college to get a good job, etc. There is more opportunity in this country then in many. Getting somewhere requires hard work and sacrifice. Some people lack the abilities, skills, etc and will need help but not everyone. I am for single payer health care and think one day we will have it. I probably won't live to see it. However, just because we are lacking in one area does not mean we are a horrible country. All countries have issues. We have talked about this with my DIL from Poland where they have great healthcare but not enough jobs for it's people and the pay is low. When we visit the prices are so cheap for us but not for the people that live there. We shop in the best stores and eat at the most expensive restaurants while there which is not something we do in the states. Sorry Rob but utopia is a dream.
Rob, if your mother died tomorrow, how long would it take for you and your SO to apply for residency in Mexico?
And here's the important question: do you/would you meet the Mexican requirements for residency, including the all-important financial one?
I read this morning that the CEO of united is taking full responsibility and saying that they are turning a corner in their approach to all things customer service related.
value in self-reliance and a certain amount of selfishness in expecting others to shoulder your responsibilities.
The problem with that argument is that you assume that all people who who wind up with health care needs aren't self-reliant and they actually expect others to shoulder their responsibilities.
You're in pharma, Alan, as I am. I interview patients, and these past two weeks I have been interviewing people with rare auto-immune disorders. Here's a snapshot:
Patient A: 39 year old former funeral home director who loved her job but who now can't even get in a car to drive. No job. No insurance. No way to get the treatments that will actually help her. She recently downsized into a small apartment-it's all she can afford.
Patient B: 41 year-old former high-powered founder of an international branding company with a million dollar home he has to sell because he was suddenly struck with this weird disease. He can't work. He can't even get off the couch. He desperately misses his old life. At least he has insurance.
Patient C: A 55 year old woman who has had this disease since college. She can't afford the best treatment. She hates the burden she is to her family. She hates feeling like an imposition, that she's not the person she should be. So in spite of her disease, she gets herself to a part-time job with a compassionate employer and works until 1, at which point, she's totally spent for the day.
I interview these patients and I spend my whole ride home praying, "There but for the grace of God go I." As a citizen and extended neighbor of these people, I will offer my taxes so that Patient A might be able to get back to her funeral home, and Patient B will be able to potentiate his abilities in leadership and marketing, and Patient C can have her family to dinner without feeling like she's a failure as mother and wife.
Teacher Terry
4-18-17, 2:30pm
Yes catherine people can work hard and do everything right and then something totally out of their control happens and their lives fall apart. I saw this in my work when I worked for the state helping people with disabilities get back to work. People can have lots of $ saved but it does not last when you have no job, income, health insurance, etc. It really is sad.
The problem with that argument is that you assume that all people who who wind up with health care needs aren't self-reliant and they actually expect others to shoulder their responsibilities....
Actually, No. I know and understand that there are many people who through no fault of their own are unable to provide for their healthcare needs. I sympathize with them and fervently believe society should provide a safety net to ensure their needs are met. On the other hand, there are an equal or higher number of citizens who are simply content to let others pay for their needs. I find it irresponsible to encourage them, especially if their loyalty is monetized and available to the highest bidder.
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 4:38pm
Rob, if your mother died tomorrow, how long would it take for you and your SO to apply for residency in Mexico?
And here's the important question: do you/would you meet the Mexican requirements for residency, including the all-important financial one?Hi Tradd, long time no see here, just wanted to start by saying hi. As to your post - my husband is still a Mexican citizen and has a Mexican passport. He is free to return to Mexico at will whenever he wants - it is I that would have to apply for permanent residency in Mexico. We are waiting to see if Pena Nieto's proposals to legalize gay marriage throughout the entire country pass - now it's legal in Mexico City and a few other areas but not the entire country. If it passes, we understand there is to be an immigration sponsorship provision - that would be my easy way in legally, perhaps. We shall see. Barring that, Chile or Uruguay would be of interest and would work. Rob
We are waiting to see if Pena Nieto's proposals to legalize gay marriage throughout the entire country pass - now it's legal in Mexico City and a few other areas but not the entire country.
Not legal in the entire country?!?!
How could you even consider a country that doesn't support basic human rights and basic human dignity like that?
How could you ever forgive them?
gimmethesimplelife
4-18-17, 4:48pm
Not legal in the entire country?!?!
How could you even consider a country that doesn't support basic human rights and basic human dignity like that?
How could you ever forgive them?Mexico has universal health care for all effective as of 2012....how's that for a start, Bae? Rob
Mexico has universal health care for all effective as of 2012....how's that for a start, Bae? Rob
So you don't care about all the fundamental human rights and dignities? I'm not sure how health care trumps your right to marry your spouse, but....
Is there some ranking of which rights matter?
flowerseverywhere
4-19-17, 11:29pm
Actually, No. I know and understand that there are many people who through no fault of their own are unable to provide for their healthcare needs. I sympathize with them and fervently believe society should provide a safety net to ensure their needs are met. On the other hand, there are an equal or higher number of citizens who are simply content to let others pay for their needs. I find it irresponsible to encourage them, especially if their loyalty is monetized and available to the highest bidder.
where did you get your information that an equal or higher number of Medicaid or other government health recipients are gamers rather than worthy recipients. I am curious to see your source.
where did you get your information that an equal or higher number of Medicaid or other government health recipients are gamers rather than worthy recipients. I am curious to see your source.
+1. Given how hideously expensive healthcare is when it isn't subsidized by an employer I'm curious as well.
gimmethesimplelife
4-22-17, 10:57am
There has been another unsavory incident, this time on American Airlines (much greater of a concern in the 85006 as American Airlines is one of the big players at the Phoenix Airport) involving an overly aggressive flight attendant going off on a female passenger with crying children. It seems as if American Airlines handled the incident MUCH better than United handled theirs, I'll give them that and I doubt protests against American will be organized, and if they are, I will not attend as I believe I don't have standing to engage in activism based on the facts.
I guess the overall point of this post is that air travel is just a nightmare overall these days - though I will say I've flown Southwest and never once felt this on Southwest - and I will say that on my flights in 2015 with British Airways, TAP Portugal, and Iberia, I did not feel this either. Rob
I flew back to the USA on Iceland Air yesterday.
I helped with one minor medical event (elderly lady couldn't make it up the steep stairs to the craft, slipped, gashed her leg - I caught her as she was falling, kept injuries to the "minor" level, and cleaned up the wound for her.).
Another passenger twisted a knee badly in-flight, I did assessment, provided what treatment was possible in the air, splinted the limb so she could be more comfortable and get off the plane, and called ahead when we landed in Seattle to get Someone Who Cared to meet her for transport to somewhere to deal with her knee properly, as she'd already had multiple knee surgeries on that knee. Frankly, most of the treatment consisted of calming the patient down, and chatting with her multiple small children as we were working - we had one of the kids help "fix Mommy", and the kid seemed so very empowered and proud of herself.
The flight attendants offered to take my details down, so they could reimburse me for the supplies I used, which I thought was a nice touch, though not necessary. But they did talk me into some of those nice Icelandic mini-hamburgers.
So, not so much of a nightmare, at least for me. Glad I always pack along at least some minimal medical supplies - gloves, gauze, some Coflex tape. (TSA has never hassled me about this, oddly, though the gear could have other quite obvious practical uses...) And also glad I carry appropriate ID, they seemed very intent on seeing some sort of medical ID before allowing access to the patient, and the Captain had to give the OK to proceed. They were very well organized upon arrival, they had trained staff with a special aisle-chair to evacuate the patient down the narrow aisle, so I got to see a new-to-me piece of gear.
(Also of note for Iceland Air's customer service - I arrived at Helsinki airport *far* too early, and was condemned, I thought, to sitting outside security until someone arrived to open up their counter so I could check my bag. One of their pilots happened to wander past, took pity on me, opened up their counter with the help of the Aeroflot person at the next counter, and checked my bag for me, so I could get to the secure side of the airport, where the nice restaurants were. An unnecessary but appreciated kindness.)
iris lilies
4-22-17, 11:26am
Icelandic Air is making a big push for customers thru cheap fairs. DH flew Icelandic to Rejevek last fall, to get to Switzerland.
Icelandic Air is making a big push for customers thru cheap fairs. DH flew Icelandic to Rejevek last fall, to get to Switzerland.
They have been offering some amazing deals, and they make it very easy/worthwhile to stopover for a day->week in Iceland on your way to wherever. And if you are not stopping over, their passenger-shuffling transport model of "everyone flies into Reykjavik, then swaps to the plane leaving Reykjavik in 60 minutes to their final destination" works extremely well, they have worked out all the steps with the customs/immigration/... folks, and it's very smooth.
United has already settled. Looks like they will stay in business. As I said, this will soon be forgotten.
gimmethesimplelife
4-28-17, 8:22am
United has already settled. Looks like they will stay in business. As I said, this will soon be forgotten.I beg to differ, dmc, with all due respect. I will never forget this, as i've stated before, and will bring it up whenever appropriate in conversation for the remainder of my life. It is my moral and ethical duty as an adult and a decent human being to do so and I expect no less from myself. One way to put this is you know that saying "Friends don't let friends drive drunk"? In this case, friends don't let friends fly the Hostile and Threatening Skies of the United Airlines Brand. Rob
PS Came back to add that a big lesson here for the middle class and above that we in the 85006 (and many similar US zip codes, nothing makes the 85006 special) already know - smartphone video used in conjunction with social media can really level the playing field and lend you human rights against turbo-charged capitalism. I'm hoping that this lesson spreads upwards in the social classes. Rob
Here is the email I got from United this week. The subject line read "Actions Speak Louder Than Words."
Dear Ms xxx,
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
So, the uproar did result in positive change.
I am not understanding why this has become a class issue for you, Gimmethesimplelife. It was horrible that United bumped the passenger and called the police and manhandled him. It was horrible when the other airline manhandled the poor mom with her babies,and I really liked that guy that stood up for her. I had similar treatment once from Delta and contemplated suing but I didn't want to get caught up in that negativity, even though it left a really lasting dislike of Delta, and flight attendants in general.
But why is this a class issue, why a lesson for the middle class and above? I'm just not following. By the way, the doctor would be considered an upper class representative because he is a doctor, which is a powerful social position. He has already gotten a lot of money for his assault, which is great, but someone with a lot of money got more money from his attackers, but why would you consider this something that is a victory for the poor? I am just lost here.
gimmethesimplelife
4-28-17, 8:55am
I am not understanding why this has become a class issue for you, Gimmethesimplelife. It was horrible that United bumped the passenger and called the police and manhandled him. It was horrible when the other airline manhandled the poor mom with her babies,and I really liked that guy that stood up for her. I had similar treatment once from Delta and contemplated suing but I didn't want to get caught up in that negativity, even though it left a really lasting dislike of Delta, and flight attendants in general.
But why is this a class issue, why a lesson for the middle class and above? I'm just not following. By the way, the doctor would be considered an upper class representative because he is a doctor, which is a powerful social position. He has already gotten a lot of money for his assault, which is great, but someone with a lot of money got more money from his attackers, but why would you consider this something that is a victory for the poor? I am just lost here.The smartphone thing? I am a big believer in the lower classes always having a fully charged (or very close to it) smartphone on their person at all times - at least when they are out and about - as it is the lower classes that experience more police brutality than anyone else as i have posted again and again on this board. Some posters here may be sick of hearing this from me by now and I can't say as I blame them as I have gone on and on about this one. But you asked so I am answering. With smartphone video, one can legally retaliate against the police and the municipality the police work for, reaping huge settlements and cashing in on what America has become. Plus if the video goes viral, there is the added benefit of the entire world having the chance to see point blank in no uncertain terms what America truly is for it's lower classes, which gives the world a chance to reflect on whether it wishes to embrace American values/rhetoric or mercifully kick such to the curb.
Smartphone video can be a blessedly powerful thing. My heartfelt advice is to never leave home without this power - not in the political, legal, and economic climate we face in America today. To not have a smartphone with video capability on your person at all times is to allow yourself be unnecessarily vulnerable to the United States. To anyone not agreeing with this, I ask you this question: Do you honestly think United Airlines would have made any policy changes or paid out a dime as a settlement to Dr. Dao without the video of the incident having gone viral? Of cource not, without the video the entire incident would have been swept under the rug as is the American way. Use smartphone video to empower yourself against the American way.....and this is not necessarily a social class thing - it's an empowerment against what America has become thing. Unfortunately, it is the lower social classes that need this empowerment the most - but I'd argue that EVERYONE these days in American needs this empowerment.....some more than others, mind you, but no one is truly immune from America and what it has become these days. Rob
Thanks for clarifying that, Rob--so it is related to the smartphone and police brutality. That makes sense.
I respectfully disagree with you about "America and what it has become these days."
We are America, in my opinion. We the people.
Thanks for clarifying that, Rob--so it is related to the smartphone and police brutality. That makes sense.
I respectfully disagree with you about "America and what it has become these days."
We are America, in my opinion. We the people.
Yeah, I saw the movie Rosewood the other day--the movie about the massacre in the black community in Florida over a false accusation of rape. It may not seem like we've made progress since then, but we have. Sadly, there were no Smartphones, and no viral videos back then.
iris lilies
4-28-17, 1:20pm
I beg to differ, dmc, with all due respect. I will never forget this, as i've stated before, and will bring it up whenever appropriate in conversation for the remainder of my life. It is my moral and ethical duty as an adult and a decent human being to do so and I expect no less from myself. One way to put this is you know that saying "Friends don't let friends drive drunk"? In this case, friends don't let friends fly the Hostile and Threatening Skies...Rob
I often wonder why your friends let you live in these United States, toxic as they are. Maybe you dont have very good friends? Hmmmm.
United has already settled. Looks like they will stay in business. As I said, this will soon be forgotten.
I don't think it will be forgotten anytime soon. It was a very racist and ageist act as well, in my opinion, thinking the small and elderly Asian guy would be easy to boot off the plane. United was incredibly inhumane in their act against this poor man. I found the whole thing horrifying, just how awful this act was against a customer that was already seated on the plane. I and family members, neighbors and friends will never fly United again. Thank God in this age of great technology this terrible act was on video for the world to see, without it United would have done nothing. The apology letter from United that Catherine posted above is crap in my opinion. Too little too late!
I was appalled when I read that Dr. Dao was 69. So not only did they knock his teeth out and give him a concussion--considering his age, they could have killed him. All because he wanted to go home to his patients. I'm glad United has cleaned up their act--including proscribing hired thugs. I hope this sends a message to corporations everywhere.
I'm sure there will be a few who chose not to fly United. If no one from the 85006 ever flys them again I don't think they will notice.
But the majority of flyers will chose by the cost of the fare and the flight times. Not by the carrier.
They handled this badly, but how many thousands of passengers had a good experience flying with United?
Most trips out to around 1400 miles I fly myself, I rarely fly Commercial. If I was flying farther or really needed to get somewhere, I would fly any carrier that Would meet my needs. Or make it a two day flight in my own plane. So it really doesn't effect me much.
But the majority of flyers will chose by the cost of the fare and the flight times. Not by the carrier.
If fares are within the same ballpark and my preferred carrier (Alaska, Jetblue or Southwest) has a flight schedule that works for me I will avoid United. Thankfully most of my flying is up and down the west coast so I can generally avoid United.
They handled this badly, but how many thousands of passengers had a good experience flying with United?
Lately? Probably not many. Even before this current debacle they were, at least in my experience, one of the worst airlines out there. The rows are closer together than any of my preferred carriers, the change and luggage fees more exorbitant, the boarding process designed not for efficiency but to make sure the unimportant passengers (those that don't suffer United regularly) get last crack at the overhead bins and checked luggage delivery post flight painfully slow.
Regardless of airline my standard response when someone asks how my flight was is "we arrived without crashing so it was great." United has so far been at least able to meet my minimal standard. My preferred airlines aren't super awesome, but unlike United they usually beat that minimal standard.
If fares are within the same ballpark and my preferred carrier (Alaska, Jetblue or Southwest) has a flight schedule that works for me I will avoid United. Thankfully most of my flying is up and down the west coast so I can generally avoid United.
Lately? Probably not many. Even before this current debacle they were, at least in my experience, one of the worst airlines out there. The rows are closer together than any of my preferred carriers, the change and luggage fees more exorbitant, the boarding process designed not for efficiency but to make sure the unimportant passengers (those that don't suffer United regularly) get last crack at the overhead bins and checked luggage delivery post flight painfully slow.
Regardless of airline my standard response when someone asks how my flight was is "we arrived without crashing so it was great." United has so far been at least able to meet my minimal standard. My preferred airlines aren't super awesome, but unlike United they usually beat that minimal standard.
I honestly can't remember the last time I flew United, so I can't comment on how they rate. The last time I flew commercial It was not a good experience. Between the TSA, and trying to keep fares as cheap as possible it's not a pleasant experience. But it still beats driving on a long trip.
gimmethesimplelife
4-29-17, 9:42am
I don't think it will be forgotten anytime soon. It was a very racist and ageist act as well, in my opinion, thinking the small and elderly Asian guy would be easy to boot off the plane. United was incredibly inhumane in their act against this poor man. I found the whole thing horrifying, just how awful this act was against a customer that was already seated on the plane. I and family members, neighbors and friends will never fly United again. Thank God in this age of great technology this terrible act was on video for the world to see, without it United would have done nothing. The apology letter from United that Catherine posted above is crap in my opinion. Too little too late!Thank You, Yarrow. Your post here gives me some faith in humanity. And I'm glad someone else sees technology as the vehicle towards getting the word out and holding corporations accountable for their behavior.....You are so right, without the smartphone video here that went viral, nothing at all would have been done. It is so important to hold corporations accountable as United Airlines has been held accountable - I believe that if I don't hold a given abusive corporation accountable, I'm really in a way just as guilty as they are.
Amazing, too, this role of technology - I see it as a curse often due to the automation of many jobs, but here technology actually aids basic human rights and basic human dignity. It's only been the last couple of years that I have come to understand that technology has it's upsides, too. I'd be willing to bet that Dr. Dao would agree with this right now - and that Oscar Munoz, CEO of United, is cursing the smartphone video that proved to the world what the United Airlines brand truly stands for/what it's all about. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-29-17, 9:45am
I was appalled when I read that Dr. Dao was 69. So not only did they knock his teeth out and give him a concussion--considering his age, they could have killed him. All because he wanted to go home to his patients. I'm glad United has cleaned up their act--including proscribing hired thugs. I hope this sends a message to corporations everywhere.
My hope is that corporations realize that they are not immune from smartphone video and that smartphone video levels the playing field for the little people more than corporations believe it does. I rather doubt it, though - there will need to be many more similar incidents before any real and lasting change is going to take place. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-29-17, 11:05am
I often wonder why your friends let you live in these United States, toxic as they are. Maybe you dont have very good friends? Hmmmm.Ouch IL...ouch.....that was a low blow. Please don't comment in such a way about my friends.....I will look the other way at most comments directed towards myself (and have repeatedly on this board) but I have to draw the line at my friends. No snark here....just please refrain from such in the future. Rob
iris lilies
4-29-17, 11:41am
Ouch IL...ouch.....that was a low blow. Please don't comment in such a way about my friends.....I will look the other way at most comments directed towards myself (and have repeatedly on this board) but I have to draw the line at my friends. No snark here....just please refrain from such in the future. Rob
Ok, and besides your friends are probably fine and want the best for you. Perhaps it is your own logic, "friends wont let friends..." that is off.
my own friends cannot, literally, keep me away from self defeating behaviours, so
I think it is an empty advertising slogan, but effective as advertising.
ToomuchStuff
4-30-17, 1:05am
Ouch IL...ouch.....that was a low blow. Please don't comment in such a way about my friends.....I will look the other way at most comments directed towards myself (and have repeatedly on this board) but I have to draw the line at my friends. No snark here....just please refrain from such in the future. Rob
What line? What, you leave the country you hate?:laff:
Your friends are welcome to join here and speak for themselves, the same as those in charge of United that you have been talking bad about, and the LEO's who removed the passenger are.
You can do nothing but look the other way, as you have no authority to do anything, especially since you have also been talking about people who are not here.
Pot, kettle.
http://www.insidehook.com/nation/old-cia-jet-sale
This would seem to be the perfect plane for United to add to their fleet. The flight attendants could deal with annoying passengers by saying "It's all about perspective, folks. Just shut up and be glad we aren't treating you the way the previous owners treated their passengers."
Teacher Terry
4-30-17, 11:45am
In the past year I have been flying United a lot because they offer the best price and schedule for going to KS from here. A month ago right before getting on the plane we were told to leave our small carry-ons and they would put them under the plane. I was trying to get my meds out and not drop my tiny dog on the ground and the pilot stopped to help me. All the flight attendants have been nice too. I am not going to stop flying them. Of course the incident was horrible but we are talking about a very big company that employs many people. Southwest has always been nice to fly with but I am not going to pay more to do that.
You can do nothing but look the other way, as you have no authority to do anything, especially since you have also been talking about people who are not here.
Pot, kettle.
Rob is a moderator. Respect his authority.
In the past year I have been flying United a lot because they offer the best price and schedule for going to KS from here. A month ago right before getting on the plane we were told to leave our small carry-ons and they would put them under the plane. I was trying to get my meds out and not drop my tiny dog on the ground and the pilot stopped to help me. All the flight attendants have been nice too. I am not going to stop flying them. Of course the incident was horrible but we are talking about a very big company that employs many people. Southwest has always been nice to fly with but I am not going to pay more to do that.
I think you're right. I make choices based on price and convenience on the assumption that the rest is a crap shoot anyway.
In my experience of commercial air, much more misery seems to have been inflicted by my fellow passengers than by the airlines' staff. I suppose that's more or less inevitable when you cram many strangers into an uncomfortable enclosed space for hours at a time. It tends to be a test of character that many of us fail in different ways. The incident in question seems to have been a perfect storm of mutual idiocy and media hype.
Teacher Terry
4-30-17, 1:28pm
When I fly I also go with a good attitude. I am choosing to do it so no need to be grumpy. I am always nice to everyone I encounter because there is no reason not to be. One time when we were flying to Europe 3 days in advance for my son's wedding and due to the airlines missed our connecting flight. There was no bad weather. My other son and husband and I stood in a long line for hours and was told when it was our turn nothing could be done to get us there for the wedding. Then my head started to swivel and I got very assertive but not nasty. I told them I did not care how they did it, get a supervisor, put us on another airline but we had paid 1400 each and I flew plenty of time in advance to get there. It was late at night and the employees just wanted to go home. My son said to give up and I told him to shut up and basically held up the line until they got a supervisor and put us on another airline. We ended up arriving Fri night for a Sat wedding with no clothes/luggage, etc. We quickly bought clothes on Sat. Our luggage took 4 days to catch up with us but I submitted receipts for everything we bought and was reimbursed. I agree that other passengers are often worse then the employees.
Teacher Terry, that is what we had to do in the 80s when our flight to NY was cancelled and the first answer was they, TWA, could not get us to Europe for the start of our TWA tour. After about 45 minutes, we had alternative arrangements (thankfully only carryons) and 24 hours later arrived just as tour was starting. I was persistent and would not leave the counter until a solution was found.
Teacher Terry
4-30-17, 1:58pm
Sweetana: glad you did not miss your tour. I think the key is to hold up the line so they will finally make you happy to get rid of you.
ToomuchStuff
5-1-17, 12:25am
Rob is a moderator. Respect his authority.
I can't help but hear that in a voice that my nieces and nephews said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbebjUYItKw
I've seen a dozen of those over the years, no idea how long have they been on, but that always brings a chuckle.:laff:
On the more serious note, talking about people that are not here, well the rules apply to everybody. Someone with that title as well.
If we are talking about what hurts us, it hurts me when Gimmethesimplelife bashes what he refers to as "America," as I am America as are my family and friends, and my ancestors,and we do none of the things that those men do who assaulted Dr. Dao, nor would we. It hurts because my relatives fought and died for this country, for my freedom--thank you, Uncle Bry.
So something to consider, how one labels things and who one may be insulting.
The way I see it, I spent seven years in an unflattering uniform precisely for people like Rob. I'm a First Amendment absolutist. Unless all of us are free to insult, label, discomfit, annoy and misrepresent each other, then ultimately none of us are. The fact that Rob can sneer and complain about his conception of America doesn't detract from its glory. It adds to it; and to the debt we owe the people who paid in blood for the freedoms, however abused, that we enjoy.
The way I see it, I spent seven years in an unflattering uniform precisely for people like Rob. I'm a First Amendment absolutist. Unless all of us are free to insult, label, discomfit, annoy and misrepresent each other, then ultimately none of us are. The fact that Rob can sneer and complain about his conception of America doesn't detract from its glory. It adds to it; and to the debt we owe the people who paid in blood for the freedoms, however abused, that we enjoy.
I agree. The First Amendment is a precious thing. Half of my ancestors were fresh off the boat, but the other half came here before the Revolutionary War, and we have a long history of fighting in the many wars since--and being dutiful citizens. That doesn't keep me from criticizing many of the actions taken by the government; in some cases, I agree with Rob. I might be happier elsewhere, but it's far too late to find out.
Good point, LDAHL, and thank you for fighting for our freedom as Americans.
It still hurts to have my country's name insulted; hard not to take it personally.
Good point, LDAHL, and thank you for fighting for our freedom as Americans.
It still hurts to have my country's name insulted; hard not to take it personally.
I would hasten to say that my service was basically as an accountant with a security clearance. I lay no claim to the honor earned by better men than me.
I forget who it was that said "A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me."?
IshbelRobertson
5-1-17, 10:28am
I have to say If I disliked my country of birth, then I would live elsewhere, wher the values of said country suited me better! Feeling unhappy on a constant basis cannot be good for one's sense of well-being.
The only country I would consider at present would be Australia.
Reality check.
My parents moved from the country of my birth in Africa to ensure that their children had better options for the future moving us to Canada. I am passionate about the joy of their choice and the wonderful consequences for me and now my children.
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-17, 11:29am
Good point, LDAHL, and thank you for fighting for our freedom as Americans.
It still hurts to have my country's name insulted; hard not to take it personally.I am not bashing you here with what I am about to post, Tybee, and I hope you understand this.....here goes. I have always found thinking along the lines of what you have posted here impossible to understand. I was essentially raised to never believe in any country and to always have a way out and a bag packed - please understand that my Mother was born in Salzburg, Austria, in 1942 during World War 2. Her first memory is of people screaming at her because she was not moving fast enough towards the bomb shelter under her apartment building during a night of American and British bombing raids over Salzburg. I was raised to look brutally at any country - for me citizenship all boils down n to A). What is the tax rate, B). Is socialized medicine part of the deal, and C). What other social welfare is part of the deal, along with D). How much obsession to productivity is part of the deal (i.e., how much paid time off is human life worth?). Framed this way, I'm sure most people could grasp that America is not going to hold up well against many other countries.
As far as changing my thinking, nope, not going to happen. It's unfortunate that i did not and will not be raising children as I would pass this on to them.....to me it's Common Sense For The Soul. At any rate, such is how I think and that's not going to change at this late date. I will however fess up to some hyprocricy (sp?) here - I've seen enough in my 50 years that I could never be truly loyal to any one country - a given country would only be renting me for the time being, and to me, that's how people should view citizenship.
I'm very grateful my Mother kindly passed on these basic life lessons to me at a very young age - just think how many people never learn these lessons until they are much older or the many who never do.....I am very fortunate in this regard. Rob
PS Something else my Mother passed on to me that is such Common Sense - at periods of time when your life seems to be going well - work on packing a second bag.....don't ever take stability for granted and never expect it to last. Wonderful life advice and so liberating, really, if you can accept it down to your DNA.....
Rob, I think what I am trying to express to you is that you thought IL was speaking ill of your friends. When you speak ill of America, to me, you are speaking ill of my beloved country and all my ancestors who have lived here since the 1600's, and all my relatives who have served the country, some of whom have died, some of whom, like my father-in-law, lived but were in the hospital for a year with his face blown away, after he saved his men in the Hurtgen forest, or my son's grandfather, who was shot by by a Japanese sniper after the war had ended, or my uncle, shot down over Normandy and buried at the American cemetary there, or my father, who ran off and changed his birth certificate to be a Marine at the age of 15, then fought in China. Like LDAHL, he won't take any credit because he says other men like my father-in-law were braver, but he was shot at, too; they just missed.
You say you cannot understand my point of view; I understand yours, but you need to try a little harder to understand what you are saying, and how it is received.
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-17, 11:50am
Rob, I think what I am trying to express to you is that you thought IL was speaking ill of your friends. When you speak ill of America, to me, you are speaking ill of my beloved country and all my ancestors who have lived here since the 1600's, and all my relatives who have served the country, some of whom have died, some of whom, like my father-in-law, lived but were in the hospital for a year with his face blown away, after he saved his men in the Hurtgen forest, or my son's grandfather, who was shot by by a Japanese sniper after the war had ended, or my uncle, shot down over Normandy and buried at the American cemetary there, or my father, who ran off and changed his birth certificate to be a Marine at the age of 15, then fought in China. Like LDAHL, he won't take any credit because he says other men like my father-in-law were braver, but he was shot at, too; they just missed.
You say you cannot understand my point of view; I understand yours, but you need to try a little harder to understand what you are saying, and how it is received.Unfortunately, this is where social class comes in for me and in a big way.....i have lived too long in fear of America not to be brutally honest about it. This is why I am so quick to protest something horrendous such as the United Airlines incident that triggered this thread to begin with. If America wishes to portray itself as a beacon of freedom and opportunity, fine....I am OK with this but I expect follow through and not the reality that most of us face these days.
What I will say is that in the past, this country was once a much more humane place and even though socialized medicine was not part of the package, at health care was not the nightmare that it is today for so many people. Although our lives in America have never been worth a humane amount of paid time off (do some research as to paid time off in other countries, including Mexico) at least the pace of life wasn't so crushing and devastating to the soul. In short, this country at one time was worth fighting for to some degree - today it just does not pass a cost/benefit analysis for many people, and if the truth hurts.......I'm glad I can be agent to pass the truth along, it's what little I can realistically do to try to affect some basic change as a humanitarian.
I do understand down to my DNA what I am saying - you have a choice as to how to receive my message, this is true and most certainly this is your right, I will grant you that and I have no wish to take this away. OTOH, your message also is vulnerable to the filter of how it is received - this street goes two ways. Not everyone who has suffered so that the wealthy can become wealthier (an unfortunate aspect of American life starting with the Reagan years) is going to be receptive to your message. As I said, this street very much works two ways. I can grasp that if things are going well for you, you have no desire to rock the boat and if I were in that situation, and not raised the way I was, I might very well believe the same. I guess my point is that you can't expect loyalty when it fails a cost/benefit analysis.....realistically, this is asking for too much. But at the same time I do believe you are entitled to disagree with me and I don't take that away from you. Not everyone has had my life experiences, not everyone lives in the 85006 and has the chance to frequently see straight thought this country, not everyone is willing to think instead of just go along with the line society wishes you to accept. I get all of this. And I don't hold your beliefs against you, either.......Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-17, 11:52am
Ok, and besides your friends are probably fine and want the best for you. Perhaps it is your own logic, "friends wont let friends..." that is off.
my own friends cannot, literally, keep me away from self defeating behaviours, so
I think it is an empty advertising slogan, but effective as advertising.Fair enough, IL, I am letting it go. As I've posted before, I very much believe you mean well....I've posted this more than once. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-17, 11:58am
Rob is a moderator. Respect his authority.I am a banquet server and I live in the 85006.....in the eyes of this society I am nothing special, Bae. Moderator is just a part I play here, it has no real authority and since this board has calmed down a great deal from how things once were, nor should the role carry much if any authority. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-17, 12:07pm
Back to the jist of this thread if I may: I'm thinking some of you have seen the full page ad taken out recently by the CEO of United Airlines detailing changes at United to stave off more PR nightmares? Does anyone here have any faith whatsoever that these changes will actually be implemented, if so, across the board, and that they will stick for any length of time? Count me as a no, based on my life experiences with Corporate America. But that's a predictable response coming from me - what do you'all think of United's claimed changes? Rob
iris lilies
5-1-17, 12:19pm
Back to the jist of this thread if I may: I'm thinking some of you have seen the full page ad taken out recently by the CEO of United Airlines detailing changes at United to stave off more PR nightmares? Does anyone here have any faith whatsoever that these changes will actually be implemented, if so, across the board, and that they will stick for any length of time? Count me as a no, based on my life experiences with Corporate America. But that's a predictable response coming from me - what do you'all think of United's claimed changes? Rob
What I think: I am not invested in this and I care as little as I do for any other corporate action.
Teacher Terry
5-1-17, 12:26pm
Yes I think they will really try to be better because it is costing them $. It sounds like your Mom was rightfully paranoid after what happened to her. However, I find it sad that she passed this down to you. I think paying attention to what is happening in the world is great but to always have a bag packed is paranoid. As I have said before there is no utopia. I have been married 3x's and all 3 served in the military as did most of the men in my family going back generations. I am proud of their sacrifice. All countries just like companies are made up of individuals with some doing bad and some good. One thing that does bother me is that the middle class is shrinking and more $ is being moved to the top 1%. To be a strong country we need more of a middle class. Rob, you identify with poor people and maybe that is one of the reasons you have not been as successful as you could have been since you did go to college. Also I came from a blue collar working family and there is never any shame in doing any type of work. Despite marrying young and having 3 kids I worked hard and ended up with a career. People come to the US because there is opportunity.
Back to the jist of this thread if I may: I'm thinking some of you have seen the full page ad taken out recently by the CEO of United Airlines detailing changes at United to stave off more PR nightmares? Does anyone here have any faith whatsoever that these changes will actually be implemented, if so, across the board, and that they will stick for any length of time? Count me as a no, based on my life experiences with Corporate America. But that's a predictable response coming from me - what do you'all think of United's claimed changes? Rob
A few local employees dealt badly with a passenger behaving badly, and now the Company is spending some money to improve public perceptions. It's hard for me to get excited over this, and won't change my behavior in any way.
iris lilies
5-1-17, 12:38pm
A few local employees dealt badly with a passenger behaving badly, and now the Company is spending some money to improve public perceptions. It's hard for me to get excited over this, and won't change my behavior in any way.
Well, thats fine for you and me, we arent humanitarian activists, SJWs from the 85006.
- for me citizenship all boils down n to A). What is the tax rate, B). Is socialized medicine part of the deal, and C). What other social welfare is part of the deal, along with D). How much obsession to productivity is part of the deal (i.e., how much paid time off is human life worth?). ......
.......
I've seen enough in my 50 years that I could never be truly loyal to any one country - a given country would only be renting me for the time being, and to me, that's how people should view citizenship.
What do you bring to the table for whichever country would be willing to "rent" you? I remember you told us once you'd be willing to volunteer a few hours a week at an animal shelter in return for free medical care, in effect providing dozens of dollars of value to a private entity in return for hundreds of dollars of return from the public. From an immigration perspective, are you worth the cost?
P
I am a banquet server and I live in the 85006.....in the eyes of this society I am nothing special, Bae. Moderator is just a part I play here, it has no real authority and since this board has calmed down a great deal from how things once were, nor should the role carry much if any authority. Rob
Good luck finding a country that will meet your needs that will take you. To bad your mom didn't instill some personal responsibility into your DNA.
You can always get everyone in the 85006 to group together and pay for a group health insurance plan, you can even set up a sick leave pool. All it takes is money, but of coarse it means you may also have to pay.
Alan can carry the weight of only so many.
Good luck finding a country that will meet your needs that will take you. To bad your mom didn't instill some personal responsibility into your DNA.
I just spent a fair bit of time in the Nordic nations. Nations that routinely score in the top rankings of "happiest places to live". Nations that have comprehensive arrays of "free" services they offer their citizens and immigrants. Nations that are pretty good about accepting immigrants.
It might be interesting for Rob to look at what these societies expect out of immigrants in return. And dig a bit into the history of how they got here, and where their system is heading.
I'll give him a wee hint though - if he shows up, hat-in-hand, with his attitude of "I'm shopping for a country that best serves me", without skills that are in demand or capital to invest in a business, it will be interesting, unless he's claiming refugee status... And even as a refugee, there are expectations.
My understanding was that most countries (including our immediate neighbors) review the value proposition of requests for citizenship more pragmatically than we do.
I have to say If I disliked my country of birth, then I would live elsewhere, wher the values of said country suited me better! Feeling unhappy on a constant basis cannot be good for one's sense of well-being.
It must feel strange to consider the possibility that you could change countries without moving an inch.
IshbelRobertson
5-1-17, 5:05pm
Well, I've lived in various parts of England...!
I'm Scots. I don't want to be anything else.
flowerseverywhere
5-1-17, 7:48pm
All this talk about I would move to x country makes me wonder how many countries want any more people knocking at their door. If you have something to offer, such as large sums of money to bring with you, a highly specialized and in demand skill (physician, nurse, engineer, computer expertise for example) are two reasons you might be allowed in on a more than temporary basis. People who will give socially and economically to the country of their desires and make the country stronger. Speaking their language fluently, knowing their history and culture, and abiding by their customs would be huge pluses along with whatever else you can bring. . Dealing with their quota of refugees is more than most can handle right now.
Remember the girl who wanted desperately to move to New Zealand. She and her son (he had a name like hawk) and husband moved there. She had a yoga business and he worked too. After several years their visa was not renewed. It seemed from her reports i that they were hard working contributors who were not looking for benefits, did not want to have a bunch of kids off the government dime, but they were told goodbye.
It it is like everything in life. You get out of it what you put into it. I myself love America, but I don't like everything about it. I have travelled all over the world and although Western Europe and Australia are lovely, I have no desire to move there. This is my home. I can crab about what I don't like, or ignore it, or try to improve it. I choose the third option. To the best of my ability.
Ultralight
5-1-17, 10:25pm
I just spent a fair bit of time in the Nordic nations. Nations that routinely score in the top rankings of "happiest places to live". Nations that have comprehensive arrays of "free" services they offer their citizens and immigrants. Nations that are pretty good about accepting immigrants.
It might be interesting for Rob to look at what these societies expect out of immigrants in return. And dig a bit into the history of how they got here, and where their system is heading.
I'll give him a wee hint though - if he shows up, hat-in-hand, with his attitude of "I'm shopping for a country that best serves me", without skills that are in demand or capital to invest in a business, it will be interesting, unless he's claiming refugee status... And even as a refugee, there are expectations. You get a lot of good stuff in those places, but you do have to take some real initiative and put in the effort. Learning the language would probably be high on the list of to-dos.
I have to say If I disliked my country of birth, then I would live elsewhere, wher the values of said country suited me better! Feeling unhappy on a constant basis cannot be good for one's sense of well-being.
The only country I would consider at present would be Australia.
But would they take you?
ApatheticNoMore
5-1-17, 11:35pm
put in effort yea, but of course those who do the worst in the American system (the poor) are those least ABLE to put in the effort most of the time. They simply lack the resources in every sense of the word (yes money but not just money, but things like time - a very important resource, things like hope after being ground down by poverty, even things like knowledge and exposure to different possibilities etc., sometimes even health). So it becomes those who can easily escape (and if we're honest this is probably the top 20% of income earners that have the easiest path out) have no real pressing NEED to as they will probably be ok regardless (but might still get some additional benefits from leaving - more generous retirement system etc.).
It may not just be an American problem though, I've heard that even most of Syrians who made it to Europe were often middle class and up. The poorer Syrians even if they escaped Syria may not have escaped the middle east (a lot of middle east countries took in a ton of Syrians).
IshbelRobertson
5-2-17, 4:02am
But would they take you?
Yes.
We thought about trying to go to Canada because of friends in Newfoundland, but I don't think they would want us at this point because we don't have stellar health and we're over 50. Admittedly, it was a romantic idea having to do with land prices and the glories of universal health care. Unfortunately, I think it's like a loan, if you need one, you don't qualify.
The few times I have been to Canada it has seemed like the people are extraordinarily nice, and culturally like a good fit, plus the beauty of the country, the clean air--anyway, that is where I would go, but it's too far of a drive to the grandchildren, too. I did have one ancestor who died in a Canadian prison camp back in the Revolutionary War, and I found one great-great grandmother who was French Canadian and then adopted by a family in New York after her parents died. That's about it for me and Canada.
IshbelRobertson
5-2-17, 10:00am
We have lots of family there and are financially attractive to Aus. I wouldn't want to move there permanently as I am a typical red-haired, peely-wally skinned Celt. The sun and I prefer to be only nodding acquaintances!
I'm told that Australia took several of my ancestors some time ago, and they didn't even want to go.
LDAL Pretty good! Made me laugh.
IshbelRobertson
5-2-17, 5:16pm
I'm told that Australia took several of my ancestors some time ago, and they didn't even want to go.
The witnesses at my wedding sum up Australia to me. The female: Greek, aged six when her family emigrated from Corinth. Her parents opened Greek restaurants in Adelaide at a time when Aussie cuisine consisted of a T-bone steak topped with a fried egg as breakfast; husband... Well the manacle scars from his ancestors were still fresh in his family lore... As Aussies say ... They live in 'God's Own Country'! Both highly successful, I met them when we all worked in London. We're still friends, decades later.
Right after I graduated college, Australia was offering great deals to American immigrants with technical skills, but when I investigated, the sexist and racial issues there led me to setting elsewhere. I'm hoping this has improved over the past few decades?
IshbelRobertson
5-3-17, 4:45am
Let's just say there is room for improvement, but the racism is less overt... Ditto sexism.
No country is perfect, including my own!
ToomuchStuff
5-3-17, 10:22am
Let's just say there is room for improvement, but the racism is less overt... Ditto sexism.
No country is perfect, including my own!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg6CTFwOalc
I remember him saying that and how you all are doing fine in Ireland, with a north and south fighting each other, without anybody of color involved.:laff:
IshbelRobertson
5-3-17, 12:28pm
One of my favourite comedians, appearing on one of my favourite programmes HIGNFY.
gimmethesimplelife
5-5-17, 9:47am
Ay Carumba, now it looks as if Delta has taken a page from the United Airlines playbook by kicking a family off a plane in California.....I don't know if there will be protests as the locally the big issue is Trumpcare.....but I feel guilty letting Delta slide for this heinous, evil act without a protest, it's as if I'm condoning this behavior and I don't care to live with that. Rob
I don't know if there will be protests as the locally the big issue is Trumpcare.....but I feel guilty letting Delta slide for this heinous, evil act without a protest, it's as if I'm condoning this behavior and I don't care to live with that. RobYou could become a pro, there's money to be made in protest.
You could become a pro, there's money to be made in protest.
Just ask the ringers they bused in for Trump rallies! :cool:
You could become a pro, there's money to be made in protest.
That's true. Mrs. Clinton is starting up a new "Resistance" PAC, so you know there must be good money to be made in the protest industry.
ToomuchStuff
5-5-17, 10:43am
You could become a pro, there's money to be made in protest.
Your not the only one that has mentioned that. Although if he is good enough at it, he may end up having to pay for others with higher taxes.
You could become a pro, there's money to be made in protest.
Once we have a guaranteed basic income in place, we'll all have plenty of time to protest as much as we want! It'll be great!
And think of all the time we'll save grocery shopping!
http://spotlight-z.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Empty-Shelves-660x420.png
I've always managed to attend protests around my work schedules; snark not appreciated. >:(
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-17, 2:44pm
I've always managed to attend protests around my work schedules; snark not appreciated. >:(
when I worked in certain high profile areas, I just had to step outside as it was not infrequent occurrence. Danger there is the entire company you worked for can see you as you are right there protesting where nearly everyone in the company walks from the office to get to their car, so not without living dangerously.
gimmethesimplelife
5-5-17, 9:10pm
You could become a pro, there's money to be made in protest.Alan, I really don't know how to take this comment....I really don't. Point here is that I am not after money when I protest, I am merely trying to make the world a better place by vocalizing my desire for change of some sort. There is nothing in it for me but clean and quite pure motives, nor would I want money for my protesting.....Rob
ToomuchStuff
5-6-17, 11:53am
Alan, I really don't know how to take this comment....I really don't. Point here is that I am not after money when I protest, I am merely trying to make the world a better place by vocalizing my desire for change of some sort. There is nothing in it for me but clean and quite pure motives, nor would I want money for my protesting.....Rob
So you could get money for supporting causes you believe it, pay taxes on it, and then give it to causes you support or use it to support yourself.
Alan, I really don't know how to take this comment....I really don't.
You mentioned you were passing up an opportunity for paid employment during the hours of the protest. My thought was that if you prefer outside events over income generating activities, maybe you could combine the two. There are groups which will pay you to stand around and look angry. Seems like a win/win to me.
You mentioned you were passing up an opportunity for paid employment during the hours of the protest.
Seems to me there would be higher bang-for-the-buck opportunities to protest just across the border in Mexico:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/americas/mexico/report-mexico/
Chicken lady
5-6-17, 1:03pm
paid protest as a force for social change - those with more money than time can support those with more time than money in advocating social change -
this is can go many ways,
change doesn't happen/isn't enough:
people with money continue to financially support people with time
change happens:
time and money become more equitably distributed and people advocate only for causes that matter to them personally
People with money are happy with the new balance and protest is carried on only by those who consider it the best use of their time
people with time are happy with the new balance and stop protesting because they don't need the money
people with time are less happy and people with money are more happy with the the new balance and people with time continue protesting but against their own interests because they can't afford principles
at least one of these is bad.
edited to add - one if my daughter's friends is essentially a paid protester. She is 26 years old, her parents still support her,and she travels around protesting and getting arrested. (Her parents are also covering her fines/bail.)
paid protest as a force for social change - those with more money than time can support those with more time than money in advocating social change -
I guess it's the other side of the "bought-and-paid-for politician as a force for social change" coin :-)
paid protest as a force for social change - those with more money than time can support those with more time than money in advocating social change -
If get paid enough as a protester, you get called a lobbyist. And you get invited to come protest.
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-17, 10:40pm
You mentioned you were passing up an opportunity for paid employment during the hours of the protest. My thought was that if you prefer outside events over income generating activities, maybe you could combine the two. There are groups which will pay you to stand around and look angry. Seems like a win/win to me.With all due respect, I would refuse any compensation for my protesting activities other than donated food and drink.....I can't be America if I am protesting against America, you know? Not only do I deserve better but so do all the people I protest for in the 85006. Clearly you don't understand class loyalty, Alan....but to your credit I have observed that people who have been able to dodge living in fear of America don't as a rule understand class loyalty. As your President would tweet, and often has, SAD. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-17, 10:50pm
Once we have a guaranteed basic income in place, we'll all have plenty of time to protest as much as we want! It'll be great!
And think of all the time we'll save grocery shopping!
http://spotlight-z.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Empty-Shelves-660x420.pngBasic income will have to happen eventually to keep society safe for the upper one percent.....eventually things will get to this point and if the very upper percentage has any common sense (highly debateable) there will be a basic income scheme of some kind eventually. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-17, 10:50pm
I've always managed to attend protests around my work schedules; snark not appreciated. >:(Same here, and I really appreciate your classy response, Jane! Rob
With all due respect, I would refuse any compensation for my protesting activities other than donated food and drink.....I can't be America if I am protesting against America, you know? Not only do I deserve better but so do all the people I protest for in the 85006. Clearly you don't understand class loyalty, Alan....but to your credit I have observed that people who have been able to dodge living in fear of America don't as a rule understand class loyalty. As your President would tweet, and often has, SAD. RobAre you sure it's class loyalty? Class is not an ideology, what you describe seems more like a celebration of perceived victimization. I find the whole concept confusing.
I find it interesting that he has been evidently raised as a victim. Is this the way those that end up in the 85006 feel. I remember at a very young age being taught that if I wanted something I needed to plan and work toward that goal. If things didn't work out it was generally from poor planing or lack of effort.
If if I wanted nice things I shouldn't expect others to give them to me.
flowerseverywhere
5-7-17, 8:18am
This discussion has turned ugly and mean. and it does not need to be.
Since the Election I have been trying hard to talk to people who voted for and still support Trump. It is very difficult to keep my mouth shut and try to learn about others peoples views, no matter if I think they are wrong. If all we do is criticize and bully people who do not think like us our society is doomed.
People are raised differently. Their life experiences shape them. If we were all the same life will be dull.
Rob, I disagree with a lot of your viewpoints. I don't agree the solution is to have big lawsuit settlements. cradle to grave support by a government is not feasible or even desirable. I do believe it is wrong for the richest in our country get immensely richer, while the most vulnerable, like the sick and poor are allowed to get sicker and poorer, at the same time running up the deficit. Because cutting taxes, increasing military and infrastructure spending doesn't add up.
I still think we are the greatest country in the world. Surely we can do better in managing our money than what we do. And surely we can be a kinder, ore tolerant and civilized society as we work out our differences.
Flowers everywhere, You stated my feelings well. thanks.
Rob's interplay with Alan, bae, and sometimes LDAHL is a most interesting dynamic. It is one of my favorite parts of being on this forum.
Rob's interplay with Alan, bae, and sometimes LDAHL is a most interesting dynamic. It is one of my favorite parts of being on this forum.
I think that comes from radically divergent perspectives. Can access to any scarce economic resource be a "right"? I tend to think of rights in terms of areas where government is prohibited from interfering rather than areas where it is required to interfere.
Does some people having more than others constitute an intolerably unfair situation, or does it simply reflect variations in individual talent, discipline or luck? I'm inclined toward the latter view.
Are we owed something from our countrymen, or is that a bargain we are constantly renegotiating through the political process? I'm not inclined to see "America" as a sort of entity that bears guilt requiring anyone's forgiveness.
Are we ripe for a revolution of angry zip codes? I sincerely doubt it.
It just seems like playground bullying to me, and not in the least entertaining, or an "interesting dynamic." Unless the "mean girls" is an interesting dynamic.
It just seems like playground bullying to me, and not in the least entertaining, or an "interesting dynamic."
That's OK, I don't feel bullied by anyone's insistence that they have a "right" to their neighbor's industriousness, or that anyone not living in poverty is an evil oppressor or that those people who prefer a republican form of government are racist, homophobic, xenophiles and cretins. On this version of these forums, we're allowed to disagree, so it's all good.
Chicken lady
5-8-17, 12:28pm
So Alan, how do you feel about the government interfering with the right of drug dealers To earn a living based on market demands and the right of their customers to choose what goes into their bodies?
I am genuinely curious as to your viewpoint.
iris lilies
5-8-17, 12:39pm
It just seems like playground bullying to me, and not in the least entertaining, or an "interesting dynamic." Unless the "mean girls" is an interesting dynamic.
I think it is great that Rob has found something to energize him and give his life meaning.
He likes Protesting and communing with neighbors in the 85006, and that is a good thing. I am sincere in that because I really am annoyed when healthy, first world people cannot seem to lead lives of purpose and contentment. I always wnder who they expect to be their mothers, to tell them what to do with their lives. We only get one life here, people!
That I think his purpose is misguided is of secondary importance although that wont keep me from arguing his logic.
Apathy is the disease of modern society and many indulge in it. Totally agree with IL's viewpoint.
ApatheticNoMore
5-8-17, 12:50pm
I wonder how effective protesting actually is in changing anything anymore (I'm not against it, I just wonder if it's very effective). But if one is in it for their soul, maybe it doesn't matter. The thing about a corporation though is however harmful they might be in other ways, they do somewhat have to maintain decent PR as regards the customer experience unless they are a total monopoly, so it might be one of the areas where there is more influence.
So Alan, how do you feel about the government interfering with the right of drug dealers To earn a living based on market demands and the right of their customers to choose what goes into their bodies?
I am genuinely curious as to your viewpoint.
I'm not sure where that came from but I'll do my best to accommodate with one caveat, if this is a test of some sort please let me know my final grade after you've had a chance to score me.
In my view, you can't have a discussion of man-made rights without also discussing the accompanying responsibilities. If you (the generic you of course) want to spend your days pumping opiates, or whatever your drug of choice may be, into your body. I say, go for it, it's your body you should do with it as you will. That's the "rights" side of the equation.
Now lets say that due to you exercising your "right" to consume your drug of choice, you become a burden on your family and society. I believe the counter-balancing "responsibility" of your "right" means that you must live with the consequences. There should be no expectation that your fellow citizens will finance your choices or the consequences of the same.
If you feel that you shouldn't have to bear the consequences alone and expect your neighbors (through the government's forcible collection and re-distribution of earned income) to take care of you, then you must also accept the need to regulate your "rights" through the application of appropriate laws to limit your friends and neighbors liability.
So, with that said, I'll always believe that if you want to take drugs, you should be able to do so. If you want to sell your excess to your friends, then you should be able to do so, but, if you want me to support your choices by any means other than personal approval, you have to live up to the rules society will put in place to protect itself from you.
I'm not sure where that came from but I'll do my best to accommodate with one caveat, if this is a test of some sort please let me know my final grade after you've had a chance to score me.
In my view, you can't have a discussion of man-made rights without also discussing the accompanying responsibilities. If you (the generic you of course) want to spend your days pumping opiates, or whatever your drug of choice may be, into your body. I say, go for it, it's your body you should do with it as you will. That's the "rights" side of the equation.
Now lets say that due to you exercising your "right" to consume your drug of choice, you become a burden on your family and society. I believe the counter-balancing "responsibility" of your "right" means that you must live with the consequences. There should be no expectation that your fellow citizens will finance your choices or the consequences of the same.
If you feel that you shouldn't have to bear the consequences alone and expect your neighbors (through the government's forcible collection and re-distribution of earned income) to take care of you, then you must also accept the need to regulate your "rights" through the application of appropriate laws to limit your friends and neighbors liability.
So, with that said, I'll always believe that if you want to take drugs, you should be able to do so. If you want to sell your excess to your friends, then you should be able to do so, but, if you want me to support your choices by any means other than personal approval, you have to live up to the rules society will put in place to protect itself from you.
I'm trying to imagine the "drug dealer or opiate addicted" reading that explanation*. All I can hear in my mind is "whoa dude".
*agreed
I agree with Alan re drugs. Get as buzzed, addled, high as you like--just don't let your decision adversely affect me--or society--and we'll do fine.
I'd love dabble in DMT if it were legal. Ditto psilyocybin and others.
And I agree with IrisLily too. I support anyone's right to discuss/argue/advocate--I just don't like the not-so-subtle undertones of "love it or leave it" (not so easy for most of us) and jibes of "slacker" because not everyone wants to work themselves to death in the service of our corporate masters. I always liked "change it or lose it" but I'm afraid it may be too late for that.
Chicken lady
5-8-17, 2:26pm
Not a test, simply curious. There is a spectrum from "the government shouldn't regulate anything" through "the government should regulate things I have issues with" to "the government should be our mom."
i just picked a point that falls near the center and often demonstrates logical inconsistency and wondered what your stance was. So, if I have to evaluate it, I'd say: logically consistent. Which I rather expected from your other writings.
There is always a cost to society if people get addled and buzzed etc., on whatever the drug Someone has to clean up the mess, legal, medical or a combo. If I come across someone who had OD's, I have to decide to intervene or not, call 911 or walk away, use the antidote if available or not. Drugs are very self-centred weapons against society and I mean weapons. There is always a cost. Abuse has a cost. How it is handled is a very different issue.
[QUOTE=JaneV2.0;268721]I agree with Alan re drugs. Get as buzzed, addled, high as you like--just don't let your decision adversely affect me--or society--and we'll do fine.
I'd love dabble in DMT if it were legal. Ditto psilyocybin and others.
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