View Full Version : They rammed it through - and it's pretty ugly.
Here's to hoping it dies in the Senate. It would be sad to see something this bad, and this important, get pushed into law with only a 4 vote margin.
iris lilies
5-4-17, 3:43pm
Here's to hoping it dies in the Senate. It would be sad to see something this bad, and this important, get pushed into law with only a 4 vote margin.
Give us an idea of, say, 5 specific things you dont like about the Republican bill.
I'll start, with the caveat that the summary of the bill I heard has these points correct:
1). I like No Mandate. theoretically, that just never worked for me. It is just WRONG to require a resident of this country to buy a commercial product.The Supreme Court got that wrong. It is so much b.s.
2)
I like children staying on parents' policy up to age 26, that seems to be popular.
3) I like Slashing/burning of the long long long list of drugs and procedures thst every policy must cover for free. That is more b.s. People need to oay for this stuff, skin in the game.
4)
I did not catch exactly the deal about Medicaid expansion, but this bill seems go give states more leewy in determining qualifications for Medicaid as well as how they may address that. i like it, never am fond of the feds stepping on the toes of the states.
5) i like that an effort to address pre exisiting conditions is made. Can we acford it? Probably not, but we cant afford any ohe health "solutions" floated about.
Do I think any of this will work, work better, work worse, to keep costs down? Probably not. And there will be winners and losers as in all gubmnt programs.
now I need to go off and Google Rand Paul's reaction to this bill.
Give us an idea of, say, 5 specific things you dont like about the Republican bill.
The reinstatement of preexisting conditions for one. A big one. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/05/04/experts-pre-existing-coverage-house-gop-bill-would-fall-far-short/101278508/
Mostly it gets health insurance back to where it used be - the only people who can afford it are the ones that don't use it.
I think this covers some of it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2017/05/04/10-realities-of-the-gop-trumpcare-bill/#519b4e5c5470
I myself, unless my employer's insurance plan goes to hell, should duck the bullet. I mentioned a few months back my employer had decided to let me go next month, luckily a buyout plan my employer offered company wide superceded that. Along with a bit more money, I'll keep my insurance at what I'm currently paying until the end of 2018 - with option for continued coverage at a higher rate (but lower than market) until I'm 65. But there will be millions of folks out there not so lucky.
gimmethesimplelife
5-4-17, 7:33pm
In the 85006 we are NOT fans of this new and not improved Trumpcare Plan. Those who are not on Medicaid in the neighborhood mostly go to Mexico for their healthcare as it's close and much more humane and much less expensive, so probably other than Medicaid recipients - of which there are many in this zip code - there won't be much effect on others. That didn't sound right, what I mean is that the only effect will realistically be on Medicaid recipients as those who don't qualify for Medicaid in the 85006 mostly offshore health care to Mexico already. So Thankfully we have a way around Donald Trump, the Republican party, and how little human life means to the wealthy in America.
I fear for the many in zip codes similar in makeup to the 85006 that don't live close to the Mexican border - I wonder if there will be blood in the streets? Lack of access to health care to me is understandable grounds for unpleasantly violent uprisings - not that I condone such, but I most certainly can understand such when health care access is problematic. I really believe the Republican party does not have a grasp on how many people in this country stopped believing in it years ago and are just filling space here - I really believe the Republican party has no clue as to the numbers and how prevalent this is. Rob
In the 85006 we are NOT fans of this new and not improved Trumpcare Plan.
Have you read the bill yet? I still haven't figured out how much more of Alan's money I will be getting each year under this new proposal.
I wonder if there will be blood in the streets? Lack of access to health care to me is understandable grounds for unpleasantly violent uprisings - not that I condone such, but I most certainly can understand such when health care access is problematic.
Truly, it is a remarkable reality you inhabit....
Have you read the bill yet? I still haven't figured out how much more of Alan's money I will be getting each year under this new proposal. ...
I think under this plan Alan will get a bonus check; like most Republican schemes, it's designed to further enrich the comfortably off.
As Alan Grayson said--"The Republican health care plan: don't get sick. And if you do get sick, die quickly."
I think under this plan Alan will get a bonus check; like most Republican schemes, it's designed to further enrich the comfortably off.
At the moment, Alan is paying for nearly 100% of my (sorta lame) medical insurance, as I keep my income level low enough so that I get almost a complete subsidy. Under this new plan, it looks like they may have increased the income level that still qualifies you for subsidies, so that could be a win...
gimmethesimplelife
5-4-17, 8:31pm
Have you read the bill yet? I still haven't figured out how much more of Alan's money I will be getting each year under this new proposal.
Truly, it is a remarkable reality you inhabit....I live in the real world, Bae, as per my social class. Nothing more, nothing less. Just lower income reality served up with a smile and insightful inserts/advice. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-4-17, 8:35pm
I think under this plan Alan will get a bonus check; like most Republican schemes, it's designed to further enrich the comfortably off.
As Alan Grayson said--"The Republican health care plan: don't get sick. And if you do get sick, die quickly."I can not even begin to express my gratitude for living so close to Mexico so as to minimize my chances if becoming a victim to the American Health Care Industry post Obamacare. Words fall flat....I owe so much to Mexico that I will never be able to repay it. Just to be free from the last line of Jane's post here via crossing a border is, as the Mastercard commercial used to say, priceless. Rob
...I wonder if there will be blood in the streets? Lack of access to health care to me is understandable grounds for unpleasantly violent uprisings - not that I condone such, but I most certainly can understand such when health care access is problematic.
It sounds like you can hardly wait for the bloodshed. Will you be there filming it with your smartphone, or will you already have left the country?
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/505/362/3f4.gif
Words fall flat....I owe so much to Mexico that I will never be able to repay it. Just to be free from the last line of Jane's post here via crossing a border is, as the Mastercard commercial used to say, priceless. Rob
And your marriage, Mexico recognizes it all throughout the country, right?
I mean, not as important as Alan paying for your healthcare, but still....
gimmethesimplelife
5-4-17, 8:47pm
It sounds like you can hardly wait for the bloodshed. Will you be there filming it with your smartphone, or will you already have left the country?
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/505/362/3f4.gifI don't welcome bloodshed but see it as inevitable as long as the United States continues down it's turb-charged capitalistic/winner takes all path. I'm just a realist, Bae, but yes I'd like to be out of the country by the time this day arrives. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-4-17, 8:50pm
And your marriage, Mexico recognizes it all throughout the country, right?
I mean, not as important as Alan paying for your healthcare, but still....My husband and I are waiting to see if Pena Nieto's same sex marriage proposals pass or not.....should they pass, we would be legal throughout the Mexican Republic. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-4-17, 8:58pm
Just got a call from the neighborhood phone tree, from the person below me, in regards to a Trumpcare protest tomorrow. I don't care if it's going to be 106F tomorrow here, I'm in! Rob
I can not even begin to express my gratitude for living so close to Mexico so as to minimize my chances if becoming a victim to the American Health Care Industry post Obamacare. Words fall flat....I owe so much to Mexico that I will never be able to repay it. Just to be free from the last line of Jane's post here via crossing a border is, as the Mastercard commercial used to say, priceless. Rob Maybe Mexico should take better care of Mexicans. After all, the Mexican healthcare system sucks worse than the US system. Try going to live in Mexico as an average Mexican.
gimmethesimplelife
5-4-17, 10:49pm
Maybe Mexico should take better care of Mexicans. After all, the Mexican healthcare system sucks worse than the US system. Try going to live in Mexico as an average Mexican.Au contraire. For starters, Mexico isn't "taking care" of me as a citizen - though Mexico has had universal health care in place for all it's citizens since 2012, I am paying out of pocket - at costs which are much less than US prices at facilities that meet or exceed US Standards......yes, it's true, and yes, this is an very potent weapon against the US and how little human life means in this country. Avail yourself of it - or disempower yourself - only you can make the choice. Obviously, I've made my choice LOL. But I would agree that for the time being, for the average Mexican, things are more of a challenge, yes. At the rate the standard of living is tanking in the US, however, the day will come when Mexico and the US are even.....Rob
flowerseverywhere
5-4-17, 11:07pm
The median income in the US is around $57,000 dollars
once you pay your mortgage, utilities, food, tax money into social security , occasional new shoes for the kids and so on how much can you expect to spend on basic healthcare?
Because what I can see is people who get up every morning and go to work, send their kids to school, pay the required taxes are getting the shaft. Because your healthcare dollars are going to insurance companies, with big shiny buildings full of employees, CEO huge compensations packages, tons of paperwork and so on. In my case they can charge me 5x what a young person pays due to my age, even though my average MD contact is 2x/ year for routine bloodwork and preventative care. It is insane. These cowards passed this bill so they could go on recess and leave it to the senate to clean up their mess. Truly despicable human beings. Celebrating the rich getting richer, more people uninsured and higher rates for those who are elderly or have a preexisting condition. When you lay your head on your pillow tonight pray that you don't get a cancer, diabetes or cardiac diagnosis or you can lose everything.
ToomuchStuff
5-5-17, 12:12am
Lack of access to health care to me is understandable grounds for unpleasantly violent uprisings - not that I condone such, but I most certainly can understand such when health care access is problematic.
Why, so they can use the socialized medicine, paid for by taxpayers, in the corrections system?
A question for those who do not like HR 1628. What is it specifically that you do not like? Please cite the provision of the bill and not what you have heard from someone or on TV. Here is a link to the bill:
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-115hr1628rh/pdf/BILLS-115hr1628rh.pdf
I have an adult son who was deemed disabled as of 12-16. The weight off our shoulders for so many reasons was immense. We had 100% supported his medical and needs till this. I am scared for his care. I do not know much of how this will affect his medical:( I just don not know.......
It's been an interesting turn of events, with the conservatives so bent on repealing the ACA and when it finally comes down to it, many parts seem like a pretty good idea to keep. I think people have grown to like the concept of some form of universal coverage. Maybe there will be a time under different politics when single payer insurance will finally make the most sense. Unfortunately it looks like we are stuck with a deal that hurts the elderly and will make health insurance unaffordable to some.
flowerseverywhere
5-5-17, 8:29am
A question for those who do not like HR 1628. What is it specifically that you do not like? Please cite the provision of the bill and not what you have heard from someone or on TV. Here is a link to the bill:
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-115hr1628rh/pdf/BILLS-115hr1628rh.pdf
section103 title 1
no Medicaid funding for women's non abortion health services at a place that may also provide abortions. Essentially cuts Access to poor women's health care like mammograms, Pap smears and birth control.
Another attempt for for a bunch of self righteous "christians" to regulate a legal procedure through the back door. No federal monies are allowed to pay for abortions as it is, which I agree with. But it is not my business what other women do. Unless of course unwanted babies are adopted or cared for throughout their childhood. I do want women to be able to get whatever preventative health care service they need. Defunding planned parenthood non abortion services is evil. Where are these women going to get care?
gimmethesimplelife
5-5-17, 8:30am
I've been reading online that Trumpcare is likely to die in the Senate.....let's all cross our fingers and hope for the best. I will be protesting tonight if the bill hasn't been killed by this late afternoon.....I encourage everyone here to do the same - get your voice heard - take to the streets to save lives and to put human life over the rich getting richer. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-5-17, 8:36am
Why, so they can use the socialized medicine, paid for by taxpayers, in the corrections system?Look throughout the course of human history. Ignore me and look at history, and you will see that repeatedly when a given society places little value of human rights and human dignity, bloodshed eventually follows. I personally believe we are not far from it at this point - though I don't have a crystal ball and I don't read the future. Certainly Trumpcare proves how little human life means in America - though this is no great surprise to me, I knew this down to my DNA when I was 14. I will admit that ObamaCare did give me some hope but the problem with ObamaCare is that one party has to remain in power for human rights to matter and there is no guarantee that the Democrats will remain in power for human rights/human life to continue to matter - as you can see Clinton lost to Trump last November, thereby placing human rights/human life at great risk.
Not to be inflammatory here, but.....and no snark either......i really don't understand what your comment about the corrections system has to do with violent uprisings when the people have had enough? Rob
iris lilies
5-5-17, 8:39am
section103 title 1
no Medicaid funding for women's non abortion health services at a place that may also provide abortions. Essentially cuts Access to poor women's health care like mammograms, Pap smears and birth control.
Another attempt for for a bunch of self righteous "christians" to regulate a legal procedure through the back door. No federal monies are allowed to pay for abortions as it is, which I agree with. But it is not my business what other women do. Unless of course unwanted babies are adopted or cared for throughout their childhood. I do want women to be able to get whatever preventative health care service they need. Defunding planned parenthood non abortion services is evil. Where are these women going to get care?
I wish Planned Parenthood would not position itself as a political football. Theoretically I support PP and used to actually donate $. I think their public relations strategy is wrong, or perhaps their supporters are off kilter and are running on a path that PP doesnt condone, who knows. But they do this to themselves.
I wonder how that law is intended to be carried out, by organization or by facility? For instance, there is a well known abortion-providing PP facility in my city, but there are satillite PP facilities that dont do abortions. Will all facilities be denied Medicaid patients?
This is what happens when both political parties use Big government to run society. The party in power pushes their agenda.
Look throughout the course of human history. Ignore me and look at history, and you will see that repeatedly when a given society places little value of human rights and human dignity, bloodshed eventually follows. I personally believe we are not far from it at this point - though I don't have a crystal ball and I don't read the future. Certainly Trumpcare proves how little human life means in America - though this is no great surprise to me, I knew this down to my DNA when I was 14. I will admit that ObamaCare did give me some hope but the problem with ObamaCare is that one party has to remain in power for human rights to matter and there is no guarantee that the Democrats will remain in power for human rights/human life to continue to matter - as you can see Clinton lost to Trump last November, thereby placing human rights/human life at great risk.
I know that for you, and others, this is a human rights issue. To others, it's a money issue, as in who pays. Tell me, do you have a right to other peoples money? Do you have a right to the sweat from a medical technicians brow? Must others always be responsible for your needs? If so, what is your responsibility other than voting for politicians who promise to redistribute other peoples assets to your benefit?
Not to be inflammatory here, but.....and no snark either......i really don't understand what your comment about the corrections system has to do with violent uprisings when the people have had enough?
I think it's a cause and effect thing.
I would like a country of available affordable health insurance (since single payer will never get thru) AND, if the person's choice is to not pay for it, they have the responsibility to pay up front for any medical services including emergency care that they want others to provide to them. Why should our medical system pay for those who want to "wait for the need"? They should then save for the need.
We are devolving into an old China model where you paid or did not get it. They have started to develop a medical insurance model.
From what I've read, there seems little chance it will come out of the Senate in anything like its present form.
gimmethesimplelife
5-5-17, 9:16am
One good thing - my season has started to slow down again with the heat coming and the resulting lack of tourism/business travel/conventions in town. This has one upside I can see - I'm not working tonight so I will have the ability to join the Trumpcare protest! One great thing about our current President - he gives us so much to protest about, it's almost like we are spoiled for choice! Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-5-17, 9:18am
From what I've read, there seems little chance it will come out of the Senate in anything like its present form.I've read this online, too - BUT....the Senate does remain GOP controlled and therefore can't be trusted to factor the human rights and human dignity of working people into their equations. I hope for the best of course but from a common sense perspective have zero faith in the current Senate. Rob
ToomuchStuff
5-5-17, 10:41am
Not to be inflammatory here, but.....and no snark either......i really don't understand what your comment about the corrections system has to do with violent uprisings when the people have had enough? Rob
By that statement, those I have known that have killed, should be walking around free. Those that burn someones house to the ground should also be doing so.
If someone committed violence towards you, you would expect them not to be punished?:doh:
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-17, 11:05am
Please cite the provision of the bill and not what you have heard from someone or on TV. Here is a link to the bill:
that's completely silly, people don't have to read the entire of bills etc., noone does that for most anything so it's an absurd standard. Yea if the only citations are nothing but Huff Po there are better sources, but a decent newspaper will do as one of those better sources.
Health care, like any economic good, is subject to scarcity. We could ration it by government fiat, the way many countries do. We could try reducing demand through abortion and euthanasia, or passing eat-your-vegetables laws. We could try increasing supply by investing in our medical capital base or conscripting talented people into health care, or through medical tourism. We could ration it by price.
I suspect that our long march from price rationing to government fiat that began in the sixties will eventually end in some sort of tax payer funded system (of what quality, I don't know). It's just too easy politically to justify it as a sacred "right" rather than as just another commodity. My hope is that when that happens we at least allow people who wish to pay more for better care to do so rather than create a socialized closed system.
It's just too easy politically to justify it as a sacred "right" rather than as just another commodity. My hope is that when that happens we at least allow people who wish to pay more for better care to do so rather than create a socialized closed system.In that case, people who pay their own way will have better outcomes than people who do not, reinforcing the idea that "lower social classes are not worthy of basic human rights in this capitalistic system", and the struggle will continue. In our current political state, it seems better to ration healthcare, maybe patterned after the VA system.
Health care, like any economic good, is subject to scarcity. We could ration it by government fiat, the way many countries do. We could try reducing demand through abortion and euthanasia, or passing eat-your-vegetables laws. We could try increasing supply by investing in our medical capital base or conscripting talented people into health care, or through medical tourism. We could ration it by price.
I suspect that our long march from price rationing to government fiat that began in the sixties will eventually end in some sort of tax payer funded system (of what quality, I don't know). It's just too easy politically to justify it as a sacred "right" rather than as just another commodity. My hope is that when that happens we at least allow people who wish to pay more for better care to do so rather than create a socialized closed system.
That's why I think the Medicare for all thing makes sense - set a floor - and then allow people to purchase add-ons if they choose to.
That's why I think the Medicare for all thing makes sense - set a floor - and then allow people to purchase add-ons if they choose to.
And it would be a lot cheaper, too. Our (failed) for-profit model is the most expensive in the world, by far.
iris lilies
5-5-17, 11:53am
That's why I think the Medicare for all thing makes sense - set a floor - and then allow people to purchase add-ons if they choose to.
Sure, theoretically I could get behind. But the devil is in the details.
What constitutes the "floor" and are there any fiscal restraints using the taxpayers' dime? What keeps deficit spending from growing? Does anyone care about that?
I don't think for a moment that tiered health care system would work here in the U.S. Not for a second. Racial inequality.. Class beatdown. etc etc. Nope, we all have to be equal and all have equally shitty gubmnt provided health services.
In that case, people who pay their own way will have better outcomes than people who do not, reinforcing the idea that "lower social classes are not worthy of basic human rights in this capitalistic system", and the struggle will continue. In our current political state, it seems better to ration healthcare, maybe patterned after the VA system.
As I understand it, the VA rations care by slotting veterans into a series of categories based on whether various conditions were service-related, their severity, availability of resources and the veteran's income. The level of care provided seems to vary from excellent to atrocious, depending who you talk to.
I would be interested to see how that might apply on a national scale. The political class would certainly have many hours of fun arguing over who was more deserving.
And it would be a lot cheaper, too. Our (failed) for-profit model is the most expensive in the world, by far.
Is it really cheaper, or do government price controls simply force providers to charge more to other customers to make up the difference? That wouldn't be an option with a single-payer system.
Is it really cheaper, or do government price controls simply force providers to charge more to other customers to make up the difference? That wouldn't be an option with a single-payer system.
Exactly. IMO, profit has no place in the commons--public schools, prisons, health care, infrastructure...
One good thing - my season has started to slow down again with the heat coming and the resulting lack of tourism/business travel/conventions in town. This has one upside I can see - I'm not working tonight so I will have the ability to join the Trumpcare protest! One great thing about our current President - he gives us so much to protest about, it's almost like we are spoiled for choice! Rob
I hope watching this disgusting celebration of naked greed will galvanize the apathetic into action.
Exactly. IMO, profit has no place in the commons--public schools, prisons, health care, infrastructure...
What does "profit" mean?
I'm not working tonight so I will have the ability to join the Trumpcare protest! One great thing about our current President - he gives us so much to protest about, it's almost like we are spoiled for choice!
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/9d/9d6bcf9c8f79f329e4f662c40c3d17864755f7e90ed3cdf0eb f314beba127cce.jpg
Exactly. IMO, profit has no place in the commons--public schools, prisons, health care, infrastructure...
agreed 100%
Sure, theoretically I could get behind. But the devil is in the details.
What constitutes the "floor" and are there any fiscal restraints using the taxpayers' dime? What keeps deficit spending from growing? Does anyone care about that?
I would ask the same about the tax cuts they have lined up on the prospect of killing Obamacare.
I don't think for a moment that tiered health care system would work here in the U.S. Not for a second. Racial inequality.. Class beatdown. etc etc. Nope, we all have to be equal and all have equally shitty gubmnt provided health services.
We have a system that kind of works now - and people (some folks in Congress excluded) who are very attached to this system. I'd be curious what the impact would be expanding it to broader age ranges.
If Medicare isn't working, maybe we should just kill it? Let people pay for their own late life/end of life care as well.
It just feels not right with me that the republicans are taking soooooo much joy in removing any trace of Obama's 2 terms. It's almost as if it doesn't matter what the substance is that they are removing........but only that they ARE removing it.
They strike me as little kids taking tantrums a lot.......very immature and closed-minded.
Speaking of immature.............there's Trump. What an embarrassment he is for this country. He's a dorkmeyer.
It just feels not right with me that the republicans are taking soooooo much joy in removing any trace of Obama's 2 terms. It's almost as if it doesn't matter what the substance is that they are removing........but only that they ARE removing it.
Sort of like statues of inconvenient historical figures being pulled down around the country, and buildings and streets getting renamed....
“It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.”
agreed 100%
Curious what moving to for profit police and fire would be like. Property taxes would plummet. And people would be individually able choose whether to have these services or not.
There have been stories of buildings allowed to burn down because the local fire fees were not paid. Not in big urban areas but in local volunteer units.
Curious what moving to for profit police and fire would be like. Property taxes would plummet. And people would be individually able choose whether to have these services or not.
if our representatives wanted to really solve the problem of healthcare, they would follow the money and do what it takes for universal healthcare.
But, no they are being bought off by those who are profiting now. My opinion.
Curious what moving to for profit police and fire would be like. Property taxes would plummet. And people would be individually able choose whether to have these services or not.
We have historical models for both, even in the USA, to examine.
Fire is an interesting case, in that your burning structure poses risk to other structures, so there's a commons/externality issue to examine. The first fire brigades didn't really strive to put out the fire and save the structure - they used hooks and ladders and teams of men and horses to *pull down* the burning building and perhaps nearby ones, to save entire blocks or perhaps the whole city from the danger posed by the individual burning structure.
During one part of the for-profit era of firefighting in the USA, competing "gangs" of firefighters would converge on a structure, and fight to see who would get to put it out. The rule was first-to-establish-water-supply-and-put-water-on-the-fire got the job, and made the profit. This became so silly (the building was often lost while the "discussion" was occurring on the streets outside) that eventually people started contracting with specific for-profit fire brigades. You can still see medallions on older buildings on the East Coast that indicate which brigade the home owner had agreements with.
There have been stories of buildings allowed to burn down because the local fire fees were not paid. Not in big urban areas but in local volunteer units.
They aren't "volunteers" if they are holding out for pay, eh?
They aren't "volunteers" if they are holding out for pay, eh?
Was it for pay? Or things like equipment costs, etc.?
Added: maybe other costs? http://whnt.com/2015/08/12/volunteer-fire-departments-push-for-fire-service-fee-in-franklin-county/
Sort of like statues of inconvenient historical figures being pulled down around the country, and buildings and streets getting renamed....
“It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.”
I know that quote, we are off by a few years but there are some similarities.
Exactly. IMO, profit has no place in the commons--public schools, prisons, health care, infrastructure...
But if government forces prices low enough for long enough, won't supply decline?
And who gets to decide what "the commons" includes? It's "greed" when people object to being taxed, and it's not greed to demand people be taxed for your benefit.
But if government forces prices low enough for long enough, won't supply decline?
I's a shame there are no other countries that have tried that sort of model,so that we could learn from their experiences...
Curious what moving to for profit police and fire would be like. Property taxes would plummet. And people would be individually able choose whether to have these services or not.
Not sure about police, but every building owner with a mortgage would be forced to buy a fire service subscription by their bank if there wasn't a public fire department.
And in reality, there are private fire services in this country. Not many, but a few. My employer has firefighters on staff that go to homes insured by us and spray foam on them when forest fires are encroaching. It's cheaper than paying millions to rebuild after the fire.
if our representatives wanted to really solve the problem of healthcare, they would follow the money and do what it takes for universal healthcare.
To paraphrase Thomas Sowell, there is no "solution" for health care. There are only trade-offs. We are faced with a situation of near-infinite demand and finite supply. We are ill-served by politicians pretending to be saviors.
I's a shame there are no other countries that have tried that sort of model,so that we could learn from their experiences...
At some point, all of them have had to deal with quality and service constraints. They simply have different problems.
Not sure about police, but every building owner with a mortgage would be forced to buy a fire service subscription by their bank if there wasn't a public fire department.
And in reality, there are private fire services in this country. Not many, but a few. My employer has firefighters on staff that go to homes insured by us and spray foam on them when forest fires are encroaching. It's cheaper than paying millions to rebuild after the fire.
This book presents some interesting historical information about private infrastructure in America:
http://www.independent.org/images/books-hires/voluntary_city_1800.jpg
I's a shame there are no other countries that have tried that sort of model,so that we could learn from their experiences...
I just investigated in person several "reference standard" nations with "good" health/benefits programs for their citizens and immigrants. They each have about the same population of my current state, and considerably less socio-economic/cultural diversity, different settlement patterns, and very different histories.
So I'm not sure they would serve as a model for a nation as large and complex as the USA. Interesting case studies though.
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-17, 2:55pm
OTOH there are probably zero nations of any size that have made the U.S. model work very well (including the U.S. as it's quite flawed here and always on the verge of getting worse - it's permanent crisis - as just the very high cost of medical care alone - larger percentage of GDP than almost anywhere without much to show for it, will drive that). So smaller non-comparable nations versus nothing at all (no the Swiss model is not the U.S. model).
OTOH there are probably zero nations of any size that have made the U.S. model work very well (including the U.S. as it's quite flawed here and always on the verge of getting worse - it's permanent crisis
What does "getting worse" mean? What's the trend of life expectancy in the USA, with our horrid system?
https://www.infoplease.com/us/mortality/life-expectancy-age-1850-2011
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-17, 3:08pm
Getting worse is the AHCA. Bad is under the ACA that some areas only have ONE insurer right now (that's single payer without accountability there). Bad is that under the ACA people do fall though the cracks in getting medical care. Bad would be if the ACA actually did enter a death spiral of it's own accord (but that is much debated and the people who say it will are far from unbiased like the head of Aetna who withdrew from the ACA). Bad is that health care costs are driving Medicare costs up (the Fed gov does have a lot of leeway there to handle increased costs but ... it's a very expensive health care system we have and having more expensive healthcare that most anywhere else does mean less money for other things).
Getting worse is the AHCA. Bad is under the ACA that some areas only have ONE insurer right now (that's single payer without accountability there).
That certainly seems like how it is going in my county. Then again, a single organization is also busily buying up all the healthcare services in the area too.
it's a very expensive health care system we have and having more expensive healthcare that most anywhere else does mean less money for other things).
Perhaps we could cut our military budget in half, and spend the savings there on medical care and bridges and other such useless things?
iris lilies
5-5-17, 3:21pm
Insurance company was pulling out of 94 counties in Iowa so that there would be NO insurance carriers. Hows about dem apples?
The ACA mandates what must be covered. The ACA mandates that everyone must buy the product. Only, not everyone buys the product. Untenable business environment ensues.
For the most powerful country in the world, our life expectancy is dismal:
https://www.infoplease.com/world/health-and-social-statistics/life-expectancy-countries-0
But "stakeholders" are happy with our system, yes indeedy!
For the most powerful country in the world, our life expectancy is dismal:
How do you draw the conclusion of "dismal" from that dataset?
The US number from it is 79.68 years. Placing it at #43 on the list, which *looks* horrible. But look at the actual shape of the curve. There are a lot of quality nations clustered around that point, +/- one year of life expectancy. There are some obvious outlying data points as well at either end of the curve.
"Dismal" doesn't seem a warranted conclusion.
(You might find it interesting to break down the US dataset by income/education/race/zip code, and see if anything pops out...)
The ACA mandates what must be covered. The ACA mandates that everyone must buy the product. Only, not everyone buys the product. Untenable business environment ensues.
This is fun. Lets see how many more reasons we can come up with for single payer! I'll start with a couple.
Remove the mandates. Only older and sicker people buy coverage. Premiums skyrocket. Market collapses.
Remove most required coverages. People get sick and die from non covered illnesses or go broke trying to pay out of pocket.
This is fun. Lets see how many more reasons we can come up with for single payer! I'll start with a couple.
Remove the mandates. Only older and sicker people buy coverage. Premiums skyrocket. Market collapses.
Remove most required coverages. People get sick and die from non covered illnesses or go broke trying to pay out of pocket.
I loathe the confounding of health care with insurance.
Is comparing simple mortality statistics necessarily a meaningful comparison of health care systems? If, for instance, Americans shoot one another dead more frequently than residents of more placid countries, is that really the fault of our health care system? Or if we drive more cars more miles and therefore crash into one another more often than residents of more rail-bound nations, is that the fault of our health care system? Or if we operate accident-prone industries such as logging, construction or commercial fishing on a grander scale? Or log more miles in small private aircraft?
For the most powerful country in the world, our life expectancy is dismal:
https://www.infoplease.com/world/health-and-social-statistics/life-expectancy-countries-0
But "stakeholders" are happy with our system, yes indeedy!
Maybe we should all pack our bags and move to Monaco. I do actually live on Monaco Dr.
i wonder what it takes to immigrate? I'm sure they will take us all, and I'm sure the cost of living is low.
Maybe we should all pack our bags and move to Monaco. I do actually live on Monaco Dr.
My remote rural county typically ranks best-in-the-state for overall health (an index they calculate using more factors than just life expectancy), and usually is on the national best-of list.
For many of the same reasons Monaco is #1 worldwide...
I just checked, all you need is to open a bank account in Monaco. 1 million euros, I'm not sure if this is per person. And get a 1 year lease or buy property. There are some other things, but those are the first things that pop out. And proof of health insurance.
I wonder how much the dues are at the local country club? And I would need a boat to fit in.
I wonder how much the dues are at the local country club? And I would need a boat to fit in.
That whole Mediterranean tie-up procedure always confounds me, I'm sticking to Scandinavia when I escape.
ToomuchStuff
5-6-17, 12:14am
That's why I think the Medicare for all thing makes sense - set a floor - and then allow people to purchase add-ons if they choose to.
Businesses are not required to accept Medicare, anymore then the law requires them to accept cash. For that as a whole model to work, your going to have to make up an infrastructure of government employee's (example the military), Doctor's and nurses, etc. etc. etc.
That also means your going to have to fund their education via taxes, or setup government/non profit schools.
Businesses are not required to accept Medicare, anymore then the law requires them to accept cash. For that as a whole model to work, your going to have to make up an infrastructure of government employee's (example the military), Doctor's and nurses, etc. etc. etc.
That also means your going to have to fund their education via taxes, or setup government/non profit schools.
Then how does it work at all now?
ToomuchStuff
5-6-17, 11:29am
Then how does it work at all now?
The companies can choose whose/what insurance plans to work with. (hence, do you accept my insurance)
Accepting private insurance, is not the same as accepting medicaid. Private insurance pays higher as medicaid tends to pay the same across the board, where costs may not be the same (rural community where they may have to fly you out to a big hospital, to an urban community where you have the resources, as an example).
Then they charge x, and agree to y with the insurance companies so they make money, or more if someone pays out of pocket/full price.
Doctors, nurses, etc. who are not scholarship recipients or work through, or get paid for by someone else, tend to take out personal education loans, and pay their own way. They then go to work for someone, or start their own practice in association to someone (typically for their equipment), and have to cover their costs, education, and make profit, which they get to keep, spend, do as they see fit.
I loathe the confounding of health care with insurance.
What alternative would you suggest as a way for people to pay for health care? If we all had equal medical expenses insurance wouldn't be necessary. But we don't. I haven't used my health insurance in 8 years, except for a prescription for generic antibiotics when I was having oral surgery. On the other hand, SO racked up $500,000 in medical bills between July 2015 and August 2016 and still takes a prescription that costs several thousand per month. He's not cured and there are more expensive procedures scheduled to try and resolve this. Without insurance or charity to pay for all that he would be dead.
What alternative would you suggest as a way for people to pay for health care? If we all had equal medical expenses insurance wouldn't be necessary. But we don't. I haven't used my health insurance in 8 years, except for a prescription for generic antibiotics when I was having oral surgery. On the other hand, SO racked up $500,000 in medical bills between July 2015 and August 2016 and still takes a prescription that costs several thousand per month. He's not cured and there are more expensive procedures scheduled to try and resolve this. Without insurance or charity to pay for all that he would be dead.
That can't be right - see? (why do these folks keep pretending "access" and "accessible" are the same thing?)
Rep. Raul Labrador (R-Idaho) drew intense jeers at a town hall Friday when he defended the GOP’s ObamaCare repeal plan by claiming nobody dies due to lack of access to health care.
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/332188-gop-rep-nobody-dies-because-they-dont-have-access-to-healthcare
There's already a website up to prove them wrong:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mail-ashes-trumpcare_us_590b9bc3e4b0d5d9049ad475
This Website Will Mail Your Ashes To The GOP If Trumpcare Kills You. Really.
The companies can choose whose/what insurance plans to work with. (hence, do you accept my insurance)
Accepting private insurance, is not the same as accepting medicaid. Private insurance pays higher as medicaid tends to pay the same across the board, where costs may not be the same (rural community where they may have to fly you out to a big hospital, to an urban community where you have the resources, as an example).
Then they charge x, and agree to y with the insurance companies so they make money, or more if someone pays out of pocket/full price.
Doctors, nurses, etc. who are not scholarship recipients or work through, or get paid for by someone else, tend to take out personal education loans, and pay their own way. They then go to work for someone, or start their own practice in association to someone (typically for their equipment), and have to cover their costs, education, and make profit, which they get to keep, spend, do as they see fit.
The thing is, Medicare is working - so why not for someone who is 64? Or 60? or 50?
What alternative would you suggest as a way for people to pay for health care?
If we as a nation (or even as we an individual state, or heck, or a county or city) decide that health care is a service that should be provided to all, then single-payer for the baseline level of essential services, and remove the insurance industry from system. I don't see why they need to exist at all under those circumstances.
ToomuchStuff
5-6-17, 1:04pm
The thing is, Medicare is working - so why not for someone who is 64? Or 60? or 50?
:confused:
How does the fact it works for some, have anything to do with Doctors offices choosing to participate or not?
:confused:
How does the fact it works for some, have anything to do with Doctors offices choosing to participate or not?
So it doesn't work and we should kill it? Agreed, it's not everything to everyone. I was just saying there is a program there, it's in place, it's being used, why not expand who has access to it? And we seem to have shot off on a tangent.
ToomuchStuff
5-6-17, 3:09pm
So it doesn't work and we should kill it? Agreed, it's not everything to everyone. I was just saying there is a program there, it's in place, it's being used, why not expand who has access to it? And we seem to have shot off on a tangent.
I didn't get that from your post. My point was simply with the program in place, you also have to find a doctor that accepts it.
I have a friend in his 60's that was thankful for it, but still had to wait about 6 months to find a dentist that accepted it and when he could get in. If your wanting to force it across the board, the for profit thing needs to be pulled out of healthcare, then those who took the debt to get into healthcare and the ones who hold the debt for profit, need to be compensated. (and then will still have the choice to leave, if that is the only way to continue to practice)
If we as a nation (or even as we an individual state, or heck, or a county or city) decide that health care is a service that should be provided to all, then single-payer for the baseline level of essential services, and remove the insurance industry from system. I don't see why they need to exist at all under those circumstances.
I agree with you completely. And I think it would probably be a better system for a good majority of the people involved. Obvious examples of the minority being insurance company shareholders, and their senior management. Also, depending on the structure and complexity of how the single payer system was set up, hospital and medical practice claims administrative personnel might not make out so well.
I'm not holding my breath that we'll have single payer in my lifetime though.
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-17, 10:44pm
I'm all ready for the Monday protest here in Phoenix regarding TrumpCare. This protest will be so cool as it's Valley Wide and not just limited to those living in fear of America in lower income zip codes, but will include people forced to live in fear of the United States from higher end zip codes. I so am glad about this as I have business cards from Mexican dentists and doctors I can pass around to increase human rights and do some good for humanity.....I love being of service in this kind of way, it's kind of like karma against the United States and I'm all down with that. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-17, 10:57pm
We have already started community outreach in the 85006 regarding affordable doctors and dentists in Nogales, Los Algodones, and Mexicali, Mexico. We as a zip code no longer have faith in the United States to value human life and of course, are forced by the United States to offshore ourselves for basic human rights and basic human dignity. Welcome to American citizenship for the lower social classes and welcome to what America is truly all about - I knew this when I was 14 years old and find it amusing that much much much older folks are finally discovering the truth about the United States, though I do say better late than never, you know? At least Mexico exists for affordable medical and dental, and if Trump ruins this for the lower social classes, perhaps this can be escalated into political asylum claims for one for one of the better countries? It's worth a shot, given the givens. And yes, America has sunk to this for a good half of it's citizens. Rob
Political asylum based upon the cost of fillings? I'll bet that's a first. ;)
flowerseverywhere
5-7-17, 12:22am
The thing is, Medicare is working - so why not for someone who is 64? Or 60? or 50?
medicare works but it is not free. If you qualify by paying into the system for the allotted time, your premium is about $135/month. That sounds Ok until you factor in the 80% they pay, and the 20% you owe. Plus you need a part D that pays for drugs. Figuring out what the maximum out of pocket you would pay is like figuring out your taxes. Confusing. And not cheap. But bigly better than nothing. Believe me.
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