View Full Version : When goals fade away
Kind of a counterpoint to BikingLady's post about Financial Goals, what happens when those goals seem to become less and less realistic?
I have a little list on a scrap of paper I got from a hotel room probably 5 years ago or so, and it's called "I Will Retire When..." and I have a list of 6 milestones. Today I tried to figure out if my goals on this little list are even possible, and it seems REALLY optimistic--and they're not even huge goals! Most of you guys have already met them: No debt. Pay off house. Have XX in the bank. Pay XX towards kids' milestones (i.e. weddings--I don't have a huge amount budgeted there, I promise you).
But being a goal-oriented person, and also having the type of personality that is challenged with a problem, I grapple with, do I let go of my goal, adjust it, or go for it?
If I spend the next five years of my life pursuing this goal, will I be sorry? For it will take a lot of my life energy to accomplish.
If I give it up, will I be regretful? Or happier--just letting go of this desire to be the type of parent who was able to leave a little something. My mother couldn't. My father couldn't. Even the uncle, the Yale grad who made a fortune as a self-made businessman, let his family down when he died unexpectedly in his 60s, leaving his kids without a penny (he left it all to Wife #2). If I have this dream of being Uncle B... do I even have my ladder against the right wall, as Stephen Covey would say?
At this point in my life, I can either do the best I can for 5 years and hopefully get a decent Social Security payout that will keep me fed and housed; OR I can go the last lap full speed ahead and hope for the best.
Given my ambivalent attitude toward money, I don't know which path is more "me."
I guess I'm just trying to figure out where my life energy is best spent at this point in my life.
Self-protection is not just a goal, it is a necessity. Survival funding is a necessity.
Kids will have their weddings with or without your funding, kids will survive without you leaving them with $$$ when you die.
Are you confusing goals with dreams? Sorry to sound so blunt but I just don't understand. I invested after working, lived with thrift all my life, gave a lump sum to my kids to invest in their future and the rest is mine taking care of my needs and future
What is this need in you to be the fairy godmother? Who is taking care of you and your future?
ApatheticNoMore
5-31-17, 5:30pm
what would make you happiest? Isn't selling brother-in-laws house etc. helping? You did say moving to Vermont and selling your current house for one you could pay off there was an option you had considered, I don't know if you are still considering that. I probably wouldn't burn myself out chasing money personally.
What is this need in you to be the fairy godmother? Who is taking care of you and your future?
razz, I wish I knew. I think it's totally a self-respect thing. I don't think I'm confusing goals with dreams--my goals are (were) totally realistic given my earnings, and I feel I'll die a failure if I can't have something to show for all the hard work I've put in, all the money I've made, all the life energy I've expended. And why do we do it anyway? For our kids. For our families. For the next generation.
And frankly, the "kids milestone" part is a fraction, money-wise, of my other goals. I do not plan on being The Family Benefactor. Not by a long shot, at this point. I just want to do what I set out to do.
Chicken lady
5-31-17, 5:58pm
Dh did the math on retirement and he came up with an acceptable a range of "if He retires at point A and our expenses remain the same (adjust for inflation) and our investments pay off at the highest predicted level, he can live to be 96 and then I can collect his life insurance and run out of money at 98." To "if he retires at point B and we don't add any new bills other than average out of pocket medical for our ages and the investments pay off at minimum expected level we can both live to be nearly 120 before we run out of money." So we are shooting at point B, but once we get to point A, we are going to make the decision one day at a time.
We educated our kids. (Last year of tuition for last kid is in bank). We paid for one reasonable wedding (girl), will help with the second (boy) in September, and hope to be able to make a similar reasonable contribution to the third (girl).
i'd start with looking at your "pay off debt" goal. What are your fixed expenses? What part of the remaining income would it take to pay off that debt before your desired retirement date? What changes would be required and are you willing to make them?
I've never earned much money, and I have too much stuff of no monetary value, but but when I look at my family - if I died tomorrow, I'd be happy with "what I have to show for my life".
I've never earned much money, and I have too much stuff of no monetary value, but but when I look at my family - if I died tomorrow, I'd be happy with "what I have to show for my life".
Yes... this is where my ambivalence with money comes in. My mother died with nothing. I had given her $60 for Christmas 1996, and in January 1997 she was in a hospital bed dying. When I got there, she pulled out that $60 from under her butt, and she gave it to me. That was her inheritance. And I thank her profoundly for that. And yet... she didn't do what I did, and if she had, there would have been a lot more than $60 under her butt.
BikingLady
5-31-17, 6:07pm
Re Adjust the goals, that is what life is about.
I'm no goals expert, but don't you adjust as you go along? That would seem to me to me to be the practical--and logical--approach.
Chicken lady
5-31-17, 6:09pm
So, that sounds to me like this is less about reevaluating your goals, and more about regretting where the money you have already spent went.
that money is gone. All you can do is evaluate your current spending and make decisions you can be happy with.
OK, Catherine, now I understand.
When DD1 was born, I had the Near Death Experience which impacted my views permanently. At the end of each day, I would examine my activities especially involving the kids (2 eventually) and ask myself, "Have I done everything I could do for them today?" Every evening I did this. I set the goal for them that when they turned 16 years old, I would back off and let them make most of their decisions, good and bad. I helped with education costs as much as I could but had to put money aside for DH and myself as well. They owed nothing upon graduation due to their work, thrift and decisions. When they grew up as well-adjusted kids with lives of their own, I was pleased with their choices.
My goals were quite different than yours. Because I knew about life's vulnerabilities first-hand, I made sure they were as self-reliant as possible at the earliest age possible.
I have friends who are so involved with their kids' lives, finances and life decisions. Their kids check with them before making any serious decisions. The parents seem to need to be needed. They have not planned for an active life after kids leave the nest.
DH and I chose differently; I have no regrets or unfinished business and feel a success. Now, I continue working on my part to make a difference in the world as I have for the past couple of decades.
I love my kids but leave them to their lives. We are there for each other at all times as has been demonstrated, love them dearly but know that I am little more than their best and most vocal booster squad reminding them of how capable and wonderful they are. We talk weekly, visit several times a year as they live some distance away where their jobs take them.
My goal is to live my life independently and leave as little responsibility for them to deal with in the future. That means that I must take care of me!!!!!
The parents seem to need to be needed.
Thanks for the subject of my meditation over the next couple of days! That may be an important insight for me.
I'm in the "adjust it" category. So much has changed in the last five years--I would use the original goals and spend some time thinking about/journaling each goal and why you put it down 5 years ago and what you were after when you did that. Then think about your new reality now and examine the goal and see if you want to pursue it as is, adjust it, or let it go. I would do them each separately and spend some time with each goal. Some you may want to keep--there may be one that you want to pitch, or one that you want to adjust. Then adjust the list accordingly.
Ultralight
5-31-17, 7:34pm
I'm no goals expert, but don't you adjust as you go along? That would seem to me to me to be the practical--and logical--approach.
Be careful, or you might just adjust your way into having no real goal at all.
I picked up a book recently, "No Excuses!" It's about self-discipline. I tend to focus overly on the emotional aspects of life and could do with some good old-fashioned discipline. Not as punishment, but as a healthy component of a happy life. And as I was leafing through it, a quote stuck out to me:
"Most people think they have goals, but what they have are wishes." The author puts it this way: goals are something that we are actively working towards. We've identified what will move us towards the goal and we take action on that knowledge by making the decisions and taking the actions that help achieve it. Wishes are things we want and fantasize about but don't really take any action towards achieving.
I thought that was really interesting. I do a lot of wishful thinking that moves me nowhere. He has a point!
Anyway, the book has a whole section devoted to learning how to create a goal and move towards it. I haven't done it yet so can't really comment on it. But maybe for you, Catherine, it might be useful to think about the difference between a wish and a goal and see what comes up.
Ultralight
5-31-17, 9:11pm
I picked up a book recently, "No Excuses!" It's about self-discipline. I tend to focus overly on the emotional aspects of life and could do with some good old-fashioned discipline. Not as punishment, but as a healthy component of a happy life. And as I was leafing through it, a quote stuck out to me:
"Most people think they have goals, but what they have are wishes." The author puts it this way: goals are something that we are actively working towards. We've identified what will move us towards the goal and we take action on that knowledge by making the decisions and taking the actions that help achieve it. Wishes are things we want and fantasize about but don't really take any action towards achieving.
I thought that was really interesting. I do a lot of wishful thinking that moves me nowhere. He has a point!
Anyway, the book has a whole section devoted to learning how to create a goal and move towards it. I haven't done it yet so can't really comment on it. But maybe for you, Catherine, it might be useful to think about the difference between a wish and a goal and see what comes up. Interesting stuff! Keep us posted.
ApatheticNoMore
5-31-17, 11:56pm
if the issue is inheritance, well won't the kids inherit the house or something anyway someday? (unless there is large mortgage or you choose the reverse mortgage route I guess). That is more than $60. Or was it a desire to leave them money before then? Hmm I may not understand the issue at all.
The thing about inheritance is it is nice, and young people do have it hard and are poorer than prior generations, so getting some money can help, but it's never a large part of what one remembers anyone by anyway.
When I think of my grandfather I think of negatives like how much he hated my father and how judgemental he was, then I think of just visiting my grandparents as a kid, their house and their presence and so on, I think of the drinks and cheese at night (not for me as a kid, and they did not have a problem with alcohol - but it was a ritual), I think of the food they made, and I think of how almost fanatically moral they tried to be (basically super aware of their actions on the world and others - that is the basis of it), and I think I have some of that trait myself, and it can be too much, and it's ok, and I know all the things it comes from. Money is nice, but not a large part of memory.
You need to decide what is more important....your future or the future of others. I don't have the impression you are ambivalent about money at all from your many posts. You've done things for others to your own detriment. If saving and/or giving to others is your only goal then you are on the right track.
If having a retirement that can support you and your needs is important you need to change your goals to focus on YOU and your relationship with money that takes care of you and not others and stop the bleeding. Hoping is tossing it up to the wind. Working towards it makes a lot more sense.
I am going to throw out a different perspective. And I will be using something of an analogy here.
As you know I am very involved with the minimalist community in my city. What I have noticed is that there is a split in the members of this community.
There are what I call the "practicing minimalists." These are the folks who have actively right-sized their lives -- they tossed stuff, donated stuff, sold stuff, etc. They changed their lives -- maybe sold the big house and live in a small apartment. They chose a couple things they are passionate about and excised the rest. This is how they live. They tweak and nuance their minimalist lifestyle; they practice minimalism deeply.
Then there is another portion of the community who really like the idea of minimalism. They really do! They read the books and blogs, they watch the YouTube videos. They come to meetings. They discuss minimalism and so forth.
But they don't actually right-size anything -- closets still overflow, garages are still full, schedules are still way too busy, and so forth. Then the pressure of minimalism just becomes another stress source. It becomes something they fail at and it disappoints them, brings them down.
And I think: "Minimalism, if it suits you, will give you a path toward a happier life. But if it does not suit you, then live the way that does. And don't beat yourself up about it too much."
Maybe being debt-free and living simply does not actually suit you that well. Or maybe there are just a few aspects of these ways of life that suit you, so adopt them and leave the rest.
Just a thought...
Catherine, if you sit with the list for a little bit, is there one goal that leaps out at you that you are most in regret about?
flowerseverywhere
6-1-17, 7:24am
I have a little list on a scrap of paper I got from a hotel room probably 5 years ago or so, and it's called "I Will Retire When..." and I have a list of 6 milestones. Today I tried to figure out if my goals on this little list are even possible, and it seems REALLY optimistic--and they're not even huge goals! Most of you guys have already met them: No debt. Pay off house. Have XX in the bank. Pay XX towards kids' milestones (i.e. weddings--I don't have a huge amount budgeted there, I promise you
One day my daughter in law had a revelation. She is an only child and she told me in the back of her head she was counting on inheriting her moms paid off house and some money. But then she got to thinking. If her mom lived to her late eighties, like most of the women in the family did, the money could be gone from medical expenses or she herself would be in her late 60's so she better learn how to save herself. So while it is nice to think about leaving an inheritance, it is imperitive for kids to save themselves. Yes it is very hard. But you have to figure it out.
On weddings, are you going to deprive yourself to throw a big party? A wedding is the union of two people who love each other. A fairy tale fantasy guarantees no success of a marriage. Why would you even think that was a priority unless you would get satisfaction from throwing a fancy party?
so your other goals. Pay off mortgage. Money in the bank, no debt. All good goals but do your best. It is all you can do. If you don't work towards these goals what will you do with your money?
In five years where do you want to be
This thread is making me think about my goals and about goals I see others in my life working toward.
Goals are a tough business...
I have set goals and met many of them. I have set goals and failed too. Glory or agony -- these are what come from goals. haha
"In five years where do you want to be" This is the key point of the whole discussion, is it not? Maybe ongoing evaluation and resetting your goals, clarifying and editing those from 5 years ago to the key one for you at this point in your . What is it?
Teacher Terry
6-1-17, 1:38pm
I have also set goals and both achieved and failed. That is life. My parents helped us with $ occasionally when we were young and poor. I have done the same for my kids. My Mom lived until 90 so had spent all her $ and I was happy that she did. She pre-paid her funeral and told us to sell her car to pay to take everyone that came to a nice restaurant for a meal after the funeral. She was proud and did not want anyone paying for her. Big weddings are a waste of $. We have given the kids that got married a few thousand towards the cost. The size and price of the wedding is up to them. I hope I live long enough to spend all my $. Our home is paid for but recently we pulled 100k out for 30 years because interest is so low. If we get too old we may downsize again into a condo. WE are traveling, eating out, going to events and doing all the things we could not afford to do before. This is our time to live and enjoy. My kids are happy that we are finally getting to do the things we want and do not expect an inheritance.
Thank you for giving me a lot to chew on.
Here are my responses:
ANM: Yes, you are right. If I do those two things you mentioned--use all the proceeds of BILs house to pay off debt and then sell my house and downsize to a little house in VT, there is a LITTLE light on the horizon for accomplishing the last goal of the certain dollar amount I would like to achieve in the bank (which is not big, folks).
That leads me to UL and Gella (I have to get used to "UL" rather than "UA"--but I REALLY like the "minimizing" of your name. It's perfect for you.). This is something I've turned around in my head. Am I a simple living wannabe, a poseur for the simple life? Some of the people I admire most are: The Nearings, Mark Boyle, Peace Pilgrim, William Coperthwaite, Suelo, Dorothy Day, St. Francis... they all have one thing in common--they have nothing! (Almost nothing). I guess you can live your life in aspiration, but when do you just admit you'll never get to the top of THAT mountain? I really, really have to think about this and ask myself, what is it that is putting me at odds with my desire to be comfortable with almost nothing? I really have to work that out. Thanks UA.. oops, UL!
So, Gella, I have wishes, but those "wishes" are more related to the previous paragraph: wishes to live a truly simple life! I do have active monetary goals that I establish every year, work for, and achieve. So, my annual goals are not mere "wishes." My success in meeting these annual goals gives me a certain confidence I can achieve my 5-year goal of no debt, no mortgage, and a little money in the bank--if I pay the price. It's the price that I'm not sure I'm willing to pay. I like my job, but I'm growing a little weary of it, and I look at the next 5 years ahead and sometimes think.. really?? 5 more years? 100 more projects? Am I up for this? And of course, there's no guarantee that I will be the one to determine my "retirement" date. When you're freelance, you're as busy as your telephone at any given moment.
Tybee, my biggest regret is not having built up a strong retirement fund. (Well, I was on my way to a fairly decent retirement until I mortgaged my MILs house and wound up losing probably $250k about 7 years ago. What would that have been worth now?) In fact, it's scarily paltry. It's keeping those handcuffs on.
And razz, teacher Terry, and flowerseverywhere, thanks for your understanding and input. Please understand that I am NOT expecting to put a whole lot of money towards these "big parties"! My oldest son basically eloped--we bought them dinner at a nice local restaurant, and I gave $3,000 to my second son. I have two more kids left. I AM going to give them SOMETHING when they get married. That is important to me. They don't ask for anything--they're not "takers."
On the subject of inheritances, I can live without leaving them much money. One thing I certainly have learned is that no one is as good a steward of your money than you are. It's just human nature to get a windfall and veer towards irresponsibility (maybe not the people on this board, but..). And, as I said, the $60 my mother gave me back on her deathbed meant the world to me. Estates are just a PIA and a reason for ill will among family members. I would just like to be able to have a little bit of money outlive me.
I truly am going to consider all your questions and probes. Thanks again for your input!!!
ETA: I guess the upside of this is, if I fail miserably in my monetary goals, I may wind up living an austere, simple life after all!
I think it perfectly reasonable to adjust goals. Life changes, things happen, priorities change, etc. Being flexible is good:-)
Teacher Terry
6-1-17, 7:34pm
One of the problems is that we don't know how long we will live. I would not want to work right up until I die. I still work 10 hours/week but I love it. I would not want to be working f.t. at almost 63. Also like you say Catherine you may not control your retirement date. I have seen people keep working 1 more year and then get sick and die. On the other hand it is nice to have some $ to do fun things in retirement that you could not afford before. I understand losing $ in real estate because it happened to us too. No easy answers. It looks like you are being totally reasonable about the kids weddings. Only 2 of our 5 have married. Some may never or not care about wedding.
Goals are something to achieve - they also help set realistic expectations. One of the first things I see in setting goals is it's obvious I'm not going to be able to order everything that's on the menu. So I have to start picking and choosing which ones are most important to me, and which ones are actually achievable.
. . .
Tybee, my biggest regret is not having built up a strong retirement fund. (Well, I was on my way to a fairly decent retirement until I mortgaged my MILs house and wound up losing probably $250k about 7 years ago. What would that have been worth now?) In fact, it's scarily paltry. It's keeping those handcuffs on.
Okay, that is where I would start, spend some time around those insights, and see what the regret is telling you about re-prioritizing. You sound conflicted--"handcuffs" is negative, and it sounds like you are envisioning other ways to spend the next five years, but that you are concerned with the lack of a strong retirement fund.
I figured since I quoted the author of No Excuses! I might as well have it be an accurate quote rather than what I remembered from glancing at it a few months ago. Here is what he actually says:
"... people with goals accomplish so much more than people without them. The tragedy is that most people think that they already have goals. But what they really have are hopes and wishes. However, hope is not a strategy for success, and a wish has been defined as a 'goal with no energy behind it." (Brian Tracy)
To your point Catherine, you've recognized that maximizing your salary is clearly a goal and one that you work at consistently. The other items might be hopes and wishes.
On your children's wedding gifts, how about reducing your gift to $1000 per child? That seems like a reasonable amount given your circumstances. Which leads to, are they aware of your circumstances? If not, maybe it's time for an honest conversation with them about your debt situation and lack of retirement funds.
The other thing that stuck out was the debt situation and how you are not really in control of that. Meaning, you carry a large burden of debt on the house owned by your husband and his brother. Yet you have no equity or ownership in said house. How did that happen? That arrangement is disturbing to say the least. It seems to me that you are sacrificing yourself for the benefit of these two men. And in fact, the large debt you are carrying in service of that house is beyond your control because you have no say in how, when or if the house will ever be sold to eliminate that debt. And even if the house gets sold, will the proceeds go towards relieving you of the debt? I don't know how those two men managed to get you to bankroll their asset, but it's a very sweet deal for them and quite a bitter one for you. I might be wrong and misreading the situation, but from what a recall, your hands are tied here. So that would have a huge impact on whether or not you can achieve the goal of being debt free.
iris lilies
6-2-17, 2:40pm
You all are giving the OP good advice. I am stuck at a basic level of not understanding her either/or premise:
...At this point in my life, I can either do the best I can for 5 years and hopefully get a decent Social Security payout that will keep me fed and housed; OR I can go the last lap full speed ahead and hope for the best...
It seems to me that the OP has no choice right now. She has to work until the BIL the house is sold. I will admit that I am pigheaded and I honestly can't see any other choice. When the BIL house is sold, debt can be retired, and at that point OP can consider options, one of which may be to stop working.
I will say Catherine at this point that if you looking ahead five years at work seems like a long slog, it is likely that 12 months from now, visualizing an additional 4 years will appear unbearable.
I wish for you to get out from your debt and that will provide options for you.
You all are giving the OP good advice. I am stuck at a basic level of not understanding her either/or premise:
...At this point in my life, I can either do the best I can for 5 years and hopefully get a decent Social Security payout that will keep me fed and housed; OR I can go the last lap full speed ahead and hope for the best...
It seems to me that the OP has no choice right now. She has to work until the BIL the house is sold. I will admit that I am pigheaded and I honestly can't see any other choice. When the BIL house is sold, debt can be retired, and at that point OP can consider options, one of which may be to stop working.
I will say Catherine at this point that if you looking ahead five years at work seems like a long slog, it is likely that 12 months from now, visualizing an additional 4 years will appear unbearable.
I wish for you to get out from your debt and that will provide options for you.
I hear you, IL. Yes, I know that Door #1 is getting out of debt. No question. Door #2 is somehow getting this mortgage paid or paid off (via downsizing). Door #3 is making it to 70 in good health and with clients who are still with me. I truly don't see any other option other than to "slog through" UNLESS I buy a tiny house and park in one of my kids' yards. That's my last resort choice.
Gella, I can't go through my backstory one more time about how I got suckered into this mess (as a willing volunteer, I admit). If I were talking to Dave Ramsey, he would smack me upside the head for at least 5 major financial transgressions I've made in the past 10 years.
OK, gotta go do an interview.
Catherine, I don't know if you found the the advice that could be the "magic key" for you, but it seems like there are a lot of useful comments. I really appreciated reading your question and the responses because I'm starting to look at a similar question in my own life.
I like how Chicken lady put it: "Dh did the math on retirement and he came up with an acceptable a range of "if He retires at point A and our expenses remain the same (adjust for inflation) and our investments pay off at the highest predicted level, he can live to be 96 and then I can collect his life insurance and run out of money at 98." To "if he retires at point B and we don't add any new bills other than average out of pocket medical for our ages and the investments pay off at minimum expected level we can both live to be nearly 120 before we run out of money." So we are shooting at point B, but once we get to point A, we are going to make the decision one day at a time."
I'm 64 and am surprised/dismayed at the degree to which I am running out of gas professionally. In a way the last few years have been the highest growth of my career in terms of gaining new skills and experiencing new challenges...but the soul-sucking stress elements have taken over ever larger portions of my days. Part of my dilemma is that I live in and LOVE a high cost metro area---so I feel like a large part of the whole purpose of retirement before "Point B" is reached would not exist if I had to move to a different location.
(Although my "Point B" has lower numbers than Chicken lady's "Point B," it is the same idea.)
So--thanks for posting this and thanks to everyone who responded.
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