View Full Version : If you could reform welfare type benefits
flowerseverywhere
6-9-17, 7:08pm
What would you do with food stamps, cash benefits, Medicaid and so on?
for food stamps I advocate limiting what they could be used for. I know people would disagree with this, but items like soda, cookies and candy no way.
I would eliminate Medicaid and institute Medicare for all.
First I would say that anyone who wants specific input on how welfare benefits are used should be able to answer some related questions like,
What is the % of the state and federal budget that is actually spent on this type of assistance?
What is the % of people using these services who are minors?
What is the availability of childcare services for parents who are under work requirements to receive some of these benefits?
Have you known or ever spoken with anyone who has used these services and asked their experience?
and finally, I'd have that person and their family go on a SNAP food budget for 30 days to see how they fare; or as alternative, they could find out how many months/years the waiting list is for Section 8 housing. After this knowledge and first-hand experience they would be able to make an informed decision.
flowerseverywhere
6-9-17, 8:19pm
First I would say that anyone who wants specific input on how welfare benefits are used should be able to answer some related questions like,
What is the % of the state and federal budget that is actually spent on this type of assistance?
What is the % of people using these services who are minors?
What is the availability of childcare services for parents who are under work requirements to receive some of these benefits?
Have you known or ever spoken with anyone who has used these services and asked their experience?
and finally, I'd have that person and their family go on a SNAP food budget for 30 days to see how they fare; or as alternative, they could find out how many months/years the waiting list is for Section 8 housing. After this knowledge and first-hand experience they would be able to make an informed decision.
you didn't answer my question. Drinking soda, candy and cookies is not going to help anyone on welfare benefits. In case you have not noticed there is a war on public assistance by our current leaders. If you had a hand in reforming it what would you do to help people make the best of it.
Ps I grew up in foster care so I know what it is like to have nothing.
Disclaimer...I have no idea what it is to live on SNAP and Medicaid. We were poor when I was a kid but I didn't know that until I was an adult. There was always food to eat thanks to living on a farm and a creative Mom. She always made our clothes (for the girls) and I didn't envy my friends store bought clothes.
I get frustrated when a person using SNAP has cash for cigarettes and alcohol. I get frustrated at a shopping cart full of box meals, bags of chips and sugary cereals and not a fruit or vegetable in sight.
I am blessed with a wonderful career and a wage that pays taxes for these programs and I am most willing to do my part.
I don't know what the answers are. I have no intention of these programs stopping but obviously I would like to see change.
flowerseverywhere
6-9-17, 9:47pm
What spurred my question is we are at an out of state sporting tournament of adults. someone had an awful headache and could not find ibuprophin. I volunteered to go over to the grocery store,across the street. I got several requests to pick up stuff. Like bananas, oranges and nuts because the games were running late.
So so I go to the store and it is not in a nice neighborhood, but it was a nice store. It was racially mixed ofcaucasian, Asian, African American and hispanics. I get my stuff and stand in line. At the next register is a woman who,has a cart of cheap sugar laden junk. She checks out and the cashier says there is not enough money on her card. She whips out her phone and is screaming at someone about they did not give her right benefits. She starts swearing and the person on the other line hangs up. Well she stomps out of the store. Then three of the men in front of me are buying a soda, a candy bar and a small bag of chips respectively. They were using a card to get cash back and had to make a purchase. I know you cannot do this with snap benefits, it has to be cash benefits (welfare).
So so I look around and think what in the hell are we doing. How are we helping people? If you had a very limited amount of money how can you buy crap with it. How is that helping anyone?
I have tried to understand how Trump got elected, and I think this is one of them. When people go to work and struggle to pay their bills and see others getting stuff for not working (even when justified) I think it makes people very upset. There are a lot of generalizations of course but seeing this this morning really made me see a different side of things and why people are so mad enough to believe the promises of Trump. I can see these programs drastically cut just because of incidents like this have influenced the American people.
Whether we we like it or not, welfare reform is coming. Medical insurance changes are coming, particularly deep Medicaid cuts. So my question is, what can be done to make these necessary programs better.
ToomuchStuff
6-10-17, 1:14am
Based on my knowledge experiences, this would probably look more like a treatise then a post.
This is a long, complicated subject, that deals not just with finances, but values, beliefs, judgement, experiences, etc.
i would eliminate those programs, and switch over to a universal basic income setup.
I agree with bae.
Me, too.
i would eliminate those programs, and switch over to a universal basic income setup.
What does that mean Bae? And what does that look like?
BikingLady
6-10-17, 7:53am
I have always felt there should be nutritional value set for the foods purchased. On my soap box, I remember never being able to buy chips, candy or any not dinner items when we lived on Min Wage in 1980. I had a friend who would buy one candy bar a week and cut it in 7 sections so each day had a treat. Than again when the postal carriers sent the list of items they would like to see this year for the donations on it was Olive Oil, we all joked in our neighborhood that it was not too long ago that was luxury item, so I just do not know anymore.
Once I remember we had a posting about this and I mentioned why Chips and Pop at food banks, I got slammed I think because these made the people feel less like they were in need and the kids felt good getting these items. SO I guess the coin can be flipped a few ways?
i would eliminate those programs, and switch over to a universal basic income setup.
I completely agree.
i would eliminate those programs, and switch over to a universal basic income setup.
In the vain of a number of posts here - would the government tailor what the universal basic income can buy so people are forced to make the "right" choices?
iris lilies
6-10-17, 9:01am
In the vain of a number of posts here - would the government tailor what the universal basic income can buy so people are forced to make the "right" choices?
No, of course not, for many reasons.
and if they buy steak and lobster the first week, and run out of money the rest of the month, so be it.
I have been assured again and again here and elsewhere that poor people will marshall their resources so as to feed their family, pay the rent, and buy the shoes. There will be no buying of street drugs or gambling with the unversal income, the children will be fed and clothed.
so now that we have solved that, its only the pesky details to work out such as how much to give each person. Oh, yeah, and whete that money comes from.
I think about this a lot too and don't know the answer. As long as the big food corps have lobbyists, sugary junk food will be allowed, right? I read that the number of people on SSI/disability has soared in recent years since welfare as it was known was downsized. There are parts of the country where the majority of people are receiving disability checks. In that way, the expense is shifted to the government rather than the state. What I always wonder is why there are so many unmotivated souls out there?
you didn't answer my question. Drinking soda, candy and cookies is not going to help anyone on welfare benefits. In case you have not noticed there is a war on public assistance by our current leaders. If you had a hand in reforming it what would you do to help people make the best of it.
Ps I grew up in foster care so I know what it is like to have nothing.
I'm very wary of making value judgments vis-a-vis food. What the government deems "nutritious"--like skim milk and corn flakes--is decidedly not, IMO. If sugary processed foods are prohibited, who's to say that butter and bacon won't be? (OMG, it's the death fats! ;) ) Poor people are presumably adults, and can make those decisions for themselves.
Some sort of universal income is an appealing thought. I can see some irresponsible parents squandering the income money on drugs, alcohol or other useless or harmful trivia at the expense of the children. Whether the existing social welfare programs provide more encouragement to use the benefits for health care, nutritional food, education, or other general welfare for children depending on their recipient parents could probably be up for debate.
What I always wonder is why there are so many unmotivated souls out there?Path of least resistance?
... What I always wonder is why there are so many unmotivated souls out there?
You wonder why people are unmotivated to work endlessly at two or three Wal-Mart/Uber type jobs with few benefits, no union representation, and not a chance in hell of ever being able to get ahead or buy a house or pay for their medical care? It seems to me that for vast swaths of the working class, it's a miracle that there is any motivation at all.
You wonder why people are unmotivated to work endlessly at two or three Wal-Mart/Uber type jobs with few benefits, no union representation, and not a chance in hell of ever being able to get ahead or buy a house or pay for their medical care? It seems to me that for vast swaths of the working class, it's a miracle that there is any motivation at all.
Amen, Jane.
flowerseverywhere
6-10-17, 10:27am
You wonder why people are unmotivated to work endlessly at two or three Wal-Mart/Uber type jobs with few benefits, no union representation, and not a chance in hell of ever being able to get ahead or buy a house or pay for their medical care? It seems to me that for vast swaths of the working class, it's a miracle that there is any motivation at all.
When it was mandated that employers provide medical coverage there was a huge uproar. As I said, I am trying to listen to people who felt there was enough of a need for change that a candidate like trump is our president. What is the role of the federal government in mandating things like minimum wage, providing healthcare, and schools for example. I doubt many can argue the value of education but the question remains what is necessary for the government to mandate and/ or provide and how is it all paid for. Also, I cannot envision how universal basic income will be established and how it will solve the problems we have now. If people use their limited income now to buy cigarettes and soda now ( both have no positive value to meeting basic needs) how will that change? Will more people be able to buy houses? Is that even a right? Or is a two room apartment basic shelter for a family. Should free school lunch be eliminated with basic income?
With the current crew in office I hold little hope for any welfare type benefits to survive as they exist now.
you didn't answer my question. Drinking soda, candy and cookies is not going to help anyone on welfare benefits. In case you have not noticed there is a war on public assistance by our current leaders. If you had a hand in reforming it what would you do to help people make the best of it.
Ps I grew up in foster care so I know what it is like to have nothing.
Here's one reform: In polygamist towns like Colorado City it is common for the "wives" (wives in name only, not legally married) to claim they are single parents and in need of SNAP and other benefits. They are awarded these benefits which then allows the patriarchs to continue these fake marriages and continue reproduction of 10, 20 or 30 children per adult male. You the taxpayer are generously supporting all of this. Yet any crackdown is seen as being anti-religious. That's a reform I see that needs to happen.
In the vain of a number of posts here - would the government tailor what the universal basic income can buy so people are forced to make the "right" choices?
Nope.
Richard Nixon attempted a universal income bill back in the seventies. It was defeated mainly by Democrats who considered the amount insufficient and who were uncomfortable with the no-strings-attached aspect.
If you see making people eat their vegetables as the proper role of government, then a universal basic income approach probably won't work for you.
There may not be a single reason, but a lot of people are 2nd or 3rd generation welfare dependent and it has become their social norm.
What I always wonder is why there are so many unmotivated souls out there?
catherine
6-10-17, 11:28am
Amen, Jane.
Ditto
ApatheticNoMore
6-10-17, 12:03pm
Drinking soda, candy and cookies is not going to help anyone on welfare benefits.
it's not going to help anyone not on welfare benefits either truly, so at that point it is probably more consistent to argue for a sugar tax or something (remember the soda tax), to get a much larger part of the population with disincentives to consuming those things.
Aqua Blue
6-10-17, 12:48pm
Anyone read Hand to Mouth by Linda Terindo? Good first person read on being poor in the USA. I think a living wage woul d go along way to improving life for low income people.
I think if a bunch of rich, old white men smoking cigars behind closed doors in Washington D.C. had dreamed up a plan to make a huge class of people dependent on them, with such a victim mentality that they would never pose a threat to the status quo, they couldn't come up with a better plan that the welfare state. After a generation or two of believing that the responsibility for housing, food, health care, and other basic human necessities can be provided only by the government, there is no incentive to rise above this basic level. The children of the welfare state have an extremely difficult time breaking out of the cycle...they see no incentive. That's why I'd like to see the system re-worked in such a way that recipients are rewarded for working, with affordable day care, without getting food stamps or Medicaid cut if they work extra hours and make more money. And, re: restricting certain foods you can buy on food stamps: if WIC can restrict certain foods, why is that any different?
flowerseverywhere
6-10-17, 8:14pm
Nope.
If parents spend their stipend on cigarettes, drugs and booze, what happens to the kids?
flowerseverywhere
6-10-17, 8:17pm
I think if a bunch of rich, old white men smoking cigars behind closed doors in Washington D.C. had dreamed up a plan to make a huge class of people dependent on them, with such a victim mentality that they would never pose a threat to the status quo, they couldn't come up with a better plan that the welfare state. After a generation or two of believing that the responsibility for housing, food, health care, and other basic human necessities can be provided only by the government, there is no incentive to rise above this basic level. The children of the welfare state have an extremely difficult time breaking out of the cycle...they see no incentive. That's why I'd like to see the system re-worked in such a way that recipients are rewarded for working, with affordable day care, without getting food stamps or Medicaid cut if they work extra hours and make more money. And, re: restricting certain foods you can buy on food stamps: if WIC can restrict certain foods, why is that any different?
Intersting theory. People like me would want more stuff and a nice bank account so I would work for it. Unknown how many people would feel like me. Probably most of the people here.
flowerseverywhere
6-10-17, 8:19pm
Here's one reform: In polygamist towns like Colorado City it is common for the "wives" (wives in name only, not legally married) to claim they are single parents and in need of SNAP and other benefits. They are awarded these benefits which then allows the patriarchs to continue these fake marriages and continue reproduction of 10, 20 or 30 children per adult male. You the taxpayer are generously supporting all of this. Yet any crackdown is seen as being anti-religious. That's a reform I see that needs to happen.
that sounds terrible. Why I hate organized religion. Have as many kids as you want if you are willing to support them.
It seems to me like there could be a match between the underemployed and infrastructure improvement, maybe a little like the CCC. I"m sure there are plenty of people on the government gravy train, but plenty of others who would just like a decent respectable job and maybe learn some usable trade skills.
Chicken lady
6-11-17, 7:34am
I help at the food bank. One source of our food is food donated by grocery stores. The grocery stores get a government write off for the food. The margin on donuts and bread is very high. We get tons of donated "day old" baked goods. Sometimes the "day old" baked goods are a week old - the stores first try to sell them on their discount racks. Sometimes they have started to go moldy, sometimes they are smashed or the wrappers are torn. Many many unsold cakes and stale donuts. We have to sign for the full number or we get nothing.
we get very little produce. The margin on produce us very thin and I guess the government is stingy with it's "per pound" credit. Usually stores keep the produce until it is nearly compost. Then people don't take it. If you are already dealing with the challenges of poverty, you do not have the energy to cut the small usable piece off of 27 green peppers in order to cook food.
one of the other volunteers made me angry last week. He's solid suburban middle class. Plays golf regularly, good church going fellow. We close at 7. A man in a three tone (plus rust and primer) sedan with taped seats arrived at 7:02 to get food for a family of three. He was dirty not in the "unwashed" sense, but in the "I have been doing physical labor that involves dirt and grease" sense. We went back inside to fill his order. And after he left, this volunteer (who is sometimes late for his shift) shook his head in disgust and said "you give away free food and people can't even be bothered to get here on time to get it."
I thought, "you've never wanted for anything in your life, have you?"
we had a woman come in who was riding with a friend. They had been applying for jobs all day. The woman said she was trying to figure out how she was going to feed her kids over the summer, and I told her about the library lunch program. She said that sounded really nice, but she doesn't have a car and can't drive. There is no public transportation out here, so those jobs are non-starters. Even if she gets one, she will only be able to show up if her friend is at the same place, on the same schedule, and not sick.
i have lived in areas where all the kids went to church camp in the summer because it was free, the bus came through their neighborhood and picked them up and returned them, and camp included food. I once expressed surprise that a woman I knew had sent her child to a particular preschool. She said "they had an opening. Right now, I would send him to jack the ripper's preschool if they had an opening."
so, in my community, I would buy the library a bus and gasoline (or better, an electric bus and increase funding for their electric bill) I would create a better source and distribution system for fresh produce. the bigger the system, the more it is going to malfunction.
I thought, "you've never wanted for anything in your life, have you?"
so, in my community, I would buy the library a bus and gasoline (or better, an electric bus and increase funding for their electric bill) I would create a better source and distribution system for fresh produce. the bigger the system, the more it is going to malfunction.
You raise two good points..
1) Yes, people who have never walked in the other's shoes sometimes find it hard to empathize or understand. That's why often the poor are the most generous. I was meeting my DD for lunch yesterday, as she was driving from a photo shoot in Brooklyn back up to Burlington. When she was waiting to get through the tunnel, a homeless guy was weaving through the cars that were waiting in line. My daughter's window was open so she was a great target.
A man approached her and started talking to her, and asked if he could sing her a song, and she let him. Then she said, are you looking for money? And he said, "yes, miss anything you might want to give me!" So she got her wallet out and started fumbling for some money--she had no bills, and so she opened up her change purse and started to pull out the last few coins there.
When he saw her fumbling for the change, he said, "No, miss! I don't want to take your last money! I'll go ask someone else." And he left.
Point two about the local efforts: I agree there as well. Assessing the local needs and addressing those is probably the best way to go. How that breaks out on a federal level, I'm not sure. When I worked at a food bank, it was through the church. We would pick up the food from a county distribution warehouse and then bring it to the church, where the surrounding community could come and take it. But frankly, I don't think we got much produce either. I think the answer to that is community gardens. We have several in New Brunswick.
If parents spend their stipend on cigarettes, drugs and booze, what happens to the kids?
The other side of that is what if all you have is food stamps and your kid really needs a winter coat?
iris lilies
6-11-17, 9:49am
If parents spend their stipend on cigarettes, drugs and booze, what happens to the kids?
Please, this is not a concern. Many voices here and elsewhere say this wont take place. Yes, color me skeptical, but there it is.
Chicken lady
6-11-17, 10:01am
Look iris lilies, any time you turn food stamps into drug or beer money, you are going to take a hit on the exchange rate. Cash leaves more for food.
Look iris lilies, any time you turn food stamps into drug or beer money, you are going to take a hit on the exchange rate. Cash leaves more for food.
That's true, my brother-in-law buys EBT card balances for <50 cents on the dollar or sometimes with just a case of beer. If his sellers received cash from the government rather than the EBT credits, they could afford more beer as they receive food handouts from extended family and dumpster diving. BIL is then able to use the majority of his $1600 per month disability benefit (for back pain that doesn't exist) for heroin.
Our welfare state funds a thriving black market economy.
catherine
6-11-17, 10:20am
That's true, my brother-in-law buys EBT card balances for <50 cents on the dollar or sometimes with just a case of beer. He's then able to use the majority of his $1600 per month disability benefit (for back pain that doesn't exist) for heroin.
Our welfare state enables a thriving black market economy.
When my brother asks me for money, I always have to weigh whether he will be using it for food or alcohol. I will sometimes give him the benefit of the doubt, and he'll use it to get drunk. But then there are the times that he uses it to get help. It's like playing roulette.
He's definitely been a part of that black market economy, but he would dead otherwise. He doesn't have the mental bootstraps to pull himself out of his financial situation. So, maybe he'd be better off dead, so he could help decrease the surplus population.
When my brother asks me for money, I always have to weigh whether he will be using it for food or alcohol. I will sometimes give him the benefit of the doubt, and he'll use it to get drunk. But then there are the times that he uses it to get help. It's like playing roulette.
He's definitely been a part of that black market economy, but he would dead otherwise. He doesn't have the mental bootstraps to pull himself out of his situation. So, maybe he'd be better off dead, so he could help decrease the surplus population.BIL calls my wife every so often looking for money, usually because he's neglected his utility payments and is on the verge of being dis-connected. In those cases, my wife pays the utility company, never giving money to him as that almost certainly wouldn't solve the problem at hand.
It's always a gamble dealing with people like him. We believe it is often the worst thing you can do to enable an abuser but on the other hand, do you want them to go without heat in winter or water? My BIL has the mental bootstraps, but lacks the motivation to change his situation. It's a challenge for those of us on the periphery.
catherine
6-11-17, 10:30am
BIL calls my wife every so often looking for money, usually because he's neglected his utility payments and is on the verge of being dis-connected. In those cases, my wife pays the utility company, never giving money to him as that almost certainly wouldn't solve the problem at hand.
It's always a gamble dealing with people like him. We believe it is often the worst thing you can do to enable an abuser but on the other hand, do you want them to go without heat in winter or water? My BIL has the mental bootstraps, but lacks the motivation to change his situation. It's a challenge for those of us on the periphery.
Agreed, Alan. Very challenging and sad to watch.
ApatheticNoMore
6-11-17, 10:39am
When she was waiting to get through the tunnel, a homeless guy was weaving through the cars that were waiting in line. My daughter's window was open so she was a great target.
I would not look kindly on that guy and he's the last homeless person I would ever give money to. There is a guy like that where I drive, they are going to create an accident as I see it, someday someone paying less attention, entirely by accident and not deliberately is probably going to hit that guy with their car. Why? Because they are @#$# wandering in the middle of a busy crazy street between cars begging for money. Yea maybe mentally ill and so on, but that's one behavior I WON'T reward. Because someday someone (maybe also being rather stupid and not paying enough attention to hazards) is going to have running over someone on their record and maybe cause a bigger accident with other cars as well, because of homeless guy thinks wandering between cars in traffic makes sense.
ApatheticNoMore
6-11-17, 10:56am
This illustrates another reason why it's a blessing to have government programs and long may they continue, because it's unlikely a miracle will happen where without them even the irresponsible people on them suddenly get responsible. So in reality many would become the responsibility of their loved ones, and frankly not all of their loved ones are in as good a financial position to help out as catherine and Alan. So it's not really truly the irresponsible people that are punished much less reformed by cutting benefits. It's responsible people with big hearts. So kind of the best of people that this society has to offer are the ones that get the punishment.
(Usual disclaimer: I don't believe everyone taking benefits is irresponsible, some just can't get work that pays enough etc.. Afterall if we REALLY believed in everyone working we would tailor our policies to making sure there were living wage jobs - or even just jobs - for everyone that wants them, and that's the last thing we do and we don't even take the most minimal measures to prevent existing jobs from leaving the country etc.. So we're not really serious about that. But regardless it's perfectly fair to stipulate that a few irresponsible people do exist, they may be a minority of those taking benefits, but nontheless. And regardless of whether a person is entirely irresponsible or just can't find work that pays enough to live, without benefits they either die as surplus population or become the responsibility of their loved ones who are often barely above water themselves).
If parents spend their stipend on cigarettes, drugs and booze, what happens to the kids?
What happens to those kids today when people *not* on benefits choose to poorly-raise their children?
I go into a lot of homes without the inhabitants having time to gussy up the place. There's a lot of horrible things going on behind closed doors, even in the nicest neighborhoods...
iris lilies
6-11-17, 9:31pm
I dont know what changes I would make, if any. A big important change was made in 1995 under
Republican Congressional leadership when the AFDC program was eliminated and financial support after 5 years was cut off to mothers with children. To me, and to the American public who supported this policy change, it changed the path of lifetime welfare dependance.
I dont understsnd why people choose to have children with no visible means of support, but that's life. I also dont understand why people choose a life dependent on paltry governmrnt handouts because it is a life of struggle, but again, people will do as they will.
I like the idea of universal basic income, but the devil is in the details.I expect there would be all Kinds of unintended consequences that progressives would poo poo but that would matter in our societal fabric.
As far as the polygamy families collevting welfare, I say what an odd focus on such a tiny, tiny portion of the population. So Lainy, you would deny welfare payments to women with children because of what sounds like philosophical differences betwern you and them? Would women who deliberately choose not to legally marry at all get a free pass from you, then? I ask because there are a whole lot more of them. Im not sure polygamous wives can even be counted.
flowerseverywhere
6-11-17, 10:11pm
What happens to those kids today when people *not* on benefits choose to poorly-raise their children?
I go into a lot of homes without the inhabitants having time to gussy up the place. There's a lot of horrible things going on behind closed doors, even in the nicest neighborhoods...
i just asked because the basic income could theoretically replace free breakfast and lunch for school kids depending on how it is structured.
i am guessing in the long run it would eliminate a whole lot of workers and jobs that would save money that way. People to verify and administer welfare benefits, people who make school lunches, in fact part of the philosophy could be to eliminate school lunches all together. Plus heating assistance and so on. Interesting how many things that the US does as a country that could be eliminated. Plus getting rid of the complicated social security system. Imagine everyone getting the set amount regardless of work history or disability status. Would make it much easier on employers for sure and those who figure all this stuff out. What would happen to kids who have illegal parents but were born here. Just think of all the complicated programs that the government administers that reach into the fabric of our lives.
Williamsmith
6-12-17, 4:26am
I must admit a struggle regarding government's role as a welfare state. As a LEO in a largely rural area, I hated the trailer parks. Lots of people making bad choices that turn into crimes there. Not much happiness and lots of poverty supported by government programs. All these programs do is create lifestyle choices. What you see is a product of these programs and some of it is hard to look at. First you have retailers of junk food and cigarettes and the government lotteries, the local bars. How do you look in the mirror and say.....this is it, this is my life with no light at the end of the tunnel. There isn't much left to feed the kids with. They are dirty and roaming the countryside getting in trouble, breaking into places, stealing, maybe using drugs. It is a real crap fest. But they are contained in their little corner of the community where the rest of us don't have to look at them.
Sprinkled in amongst them are people who are working for real bare minimum wages. Living month to month in a dog eat dog environment. Maybe they escape and get a marginal house in a difficult neighborhood. I don't see the government has done anything but set up a game with rules to break in order to survive.
So here is a real life example. I have three children. One just bought a quarter million dollar house in Texas. He and his wife work in the food service industry. My daughter is a state employee with a husband that works in a privately owned janitorial supply company. They just bought a nice ranch home. And my oldest who works in tool and die, divorced with child support, lives with a girl friend who also works in tool and die. They are looking at buying a $19,000 trailer in a seedy trailer park. All three were raised with the same opportunity, given the same financial supports. And have turned out markedly different due to......choices.
All three were raised with the same opportunity, given the same financial supports. And have turned out markedly different due to......choices.
Well, there are many out there interested in regulating our choices in ways both profound and trivial. They feel they have a superior understanding of our "best interests", and would like to do us the favor of imposing it on us.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”― C.S. Lewis (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1069006.C_S_Lewis), God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology) (http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1241712)
Well, there are many out there interested in regulating our choices in ways both profound and trivial. They feel they have a superior understanding of our "best interests", and would like to do us the favor of imposing it on us.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”― C.S. Lewis (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1069006.C_S_Lewis), God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology) (http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1241712)
I'm just curious, do you feel that "moral busybodies" cut across party lines, or do think that's the purview of only one party? I'm only asking because I certainly see it on both sides. If the two major parties in this country were Libertarians and Anarchists, I think we'd be safe from political moral undertones, but otherwise, I'll take the moral busybodiness of being my brother's keeper over the moral busybodiness of telling women what to do with their bodies, and telling people whom they should be permitted to marry.
ETA: I do really love C.S.Lewis and his writings; I actually agree with the quote in principle.
I've lived in a trailer park and a house on a lake, and everything in between in my adult life. I've been poor and I've been rich. I've had great health insurance and I've lived for four years with 3 kids with none.
Having lived on both sides, I've got to say that I have as many gripes about the rich neighbors as I do the poor neighbors. People are people.
I have some great memories from the trailer park days. It's not all bad there.
When my husband delivered pizza for four years it was the working poor who tipped the best and the wealthy who treated him like he was invisible and gave no tip.
Just food for thought ...
iris lilies
6-12-17, 9:49am
I've lived in a trailer park and a house on a lake, and everything in between in my adult life. I've been poor and I've been rich. I've had great health insurance and I've lived for four years with 3 kids with none.
Having lived on both sides, I've got to say that I have as many gripes about the rich neighbors as I do the poor neighbors. People are people.
I have some great memories from the trailer park days. It's not all bad there.
When my husband delivered pizza for four years it was the working poor who tipped the best and the wealthy who treated him like he was invisible and gave no tip.
Just food for thought ...
Speaking of pizza, food, and thought--
I do look in a fair number of dumpsters, I will admit it, it is a leftover mindset from the days when I dumpster dived. Anyways, I am continually amazed at rhe number of pizza boxes in the dumpsters in the poor neighborhood where I have a garden.
We have probably had pizza delivered two times in the 26 years we lived here. It is an expensive, fattening habit. While I wont want or expect the gubmnt to makes regulations against it, I can judge the hell out of that activity.
It is nice that these poor people not only throw away their money on take out
pizza but they also give big tips to the delivery guy. God Bless America! We have choices here.
I'm just curious, do you feel that "moral busybodies" cut across party lines, or do think that's the purview of only one party? I'm only asking because I certainly see it on both sides. If the two major parties in this country were Libertarians and Anarchists, I think we'd be safe from political moral undertones, but otherwise, I'll take the moral busybodiness of being my brother's keeper over the moral busybodiness of telling women what to do with their bodies, and telling people whom they should be permitted to marry.
ETA: I do really love C.S.Lewis and his writings; I actually agree with the quote in principle.
I think that it always has and always will be a bipartisan temptation. Republicans thought Prohibition was a good idea. I think everybody likes to adopt brother's-keeper righteousness when they want to impose rules. In the case of abortion, I suppose your moral perspective on which brother you're keeping depends on whether you assign the fetus human status or not.
I think at the present time I would give the Left honors in the moral busybodiness category, what with the sometimes violent censorship on college campuses, various virtue-signalling parades, sin taxes, "call out culture", efforts to ban everything from Big Gulps to handguns, etc. Look at Bernie Sanders' recent diatribe against Russell Vought for an example of righteous indignation in nasty practice.
That is not necessarily reflecting well on the GOP, however. They seemed to have drifted into a sort of amoral whatever-works period that may cost them in the long run. "The best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity".
Just food for thought ...
Good one!
catherine
6-12-17, 10:36am
I think that it always has and always will be a bipartisan temptation. Republicans thought Prohibition was a good idea. I think everybody likes to adopt brother's-keeper righteousness when they want to impose rules. In the case of abortion, I suppose your moral perspective on which brother you're keeping depends on whether you assign the fetus human status or not.
I think at the present time I would give the Left honors in the moral busybodiness category, what with the sometimes violent censorship on college campuses, various virtue-signalling parades, sin taxes, "call out culture", efforts to ban everything from Big Gulps to handguns, etc. Look at Bernie Sanders' recent diatribe against Russell Vought for an example of righteous indignation in nasty practice.
That is not necessarily reflecting well on the GOP, however. They seemed to have drifted into a sort of amoral whatever-works period that may cost them in the long run. "The best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity".
To be honest, I hadn't caught up with the Sanders' diatribe, so I looked it up: Pretty good summary in The Atlantic:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/bernie-sanders-chris-van-hollen-russell-vought/529614/
Well, that is disappointing about Bernie, because I'm with you on that. I'm also with you on the censorship on college campuses, and a couple of other examples you pointed out. Just this morning, I was telling DH that I really didn't feel it was right for the people on the stage at the Tonys to act as if they were at the Democratic Convention. The theater community is known for it's "passionate intensity"--I think it's misplaced when you do something like stand on the stage at a curtain call and ambush a Republic VP. So you have me there.
But aside from the Bernie attack on Vought, why do we call a huge segment of the Republican Party the Moral Majority if not for their interest in using their morals as a political platform?
To be honest, I hadn't caught up with the Sanders' diatribe, so I looked it up: Pretty good summary in The Atlantic:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/bernie-sanders-chris-van-hollen-russell-vought/529614/
Well, that is disappointing about Bernie, because I'm with you on that. I'm also with you on the censorship on college campuses, and a couple of other examples you pointed out. Just this morning, I was telling DH that I really didn't feel it was right for the people on the stage at the Tonys to act as if they were at the Democratic Convention. The theater community is known for it's "passionate intensity"--I think it's misplaced when you do something like stand on the stage at a curtain call and ambush a Republic VP. So you have me there.
But aside from the Bernie attack on Vought, why do we call a huge segment of the Republican Party the Moral Majority if not for their interest in using their morals as a political platform?
I think that last part was truer thirty years ago than it is today. At this point, it seems to me that the GOP doesn't know what they stand for and the Democrats only know what they stand against.
Does it matter that 2/3 of people receiving government assistance work or live in a household with a working adult, and that in half of those cases it's a fulltime job that pays so little that they are still eligible for benefits?
http://www.ibtimes.com/two-thirds-people-welfare-are-working-or-have-family-member-whos-working-2292060
I think that last part was truer thirty years ago than it is today. At this point, it seems to me that the GOP doesn't know what they stand for and the Democrats only know what they stand against.
Perhaps because I'm specifically a target of the religious conservative voters of the republican party I'm more sensitive to them, but I disagree with your assessment. There's a sizable portion of the GOP base that are very focused on telling other people how to live their lives. If they were going the way of the dodo bird Pence wouldn't be VP today. Pence was the best choice Donald Trump could make to solidify their support.
catherine
6-12-17, 11:00am
I think that last part was truer thirty years ago than it is today. At this point, it seems to me that the GOP doesn't know what they stand for and the Democrats only know what they stand against.
You're probably right.
Although...
I watched a really good movie this weekend--The Free State of Jones, with Matthew McConaughey about a a group of rebels during the Civil War who became disenchanted and formed their own micro-government against the Confederacy, upholding equality and property rights. I admire the people who stand up with passionate intensity to move things forward in the best interest of the oppressed. Being against oppression is the same as being for freedom, and I think we all want freedom.
To be honest, I hadn't caught up with the Sanders' diatribe, so I looked it up: Pretty good summary in The Atlantic:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/bernie-sanders-chris-van-hollen-russell-vought/529614/
I agree completely with Bernie. This is a pluralistic country. It never has been a "Christian nation," and personal religious belief/superstition/mythology has no place in it. I found Vought's initial commentary appalling. I have no doubt he'll carry this attitude with him into his position.
I find it funny that this underlying meme of "personal responsibility" that is always applied to any individual receiving government benefits is never applied to the financier class.
E.g., when AIG had to be rescued by our federal tax dollars, the shareholders recouped every penny they had invested. Where is the "personal responsibility" there?
Perhaps because I'm specifically a target of the religious conservative voters of the republican party I'm more sensitive to them, but I disagree with your assessment. There's a sizable portion of the GOP base that are very focused on telling other people how to live their lives. If they were going the way of the dodo bird Pence wouldn't be VP today. Pence was the best choice Donald Trump could make to solidify their support.
I think that people holding "traditional values" are still a significant element of the GOP base. They're just not the decisive element they used to be, else a sleaze like Mr. Trump would not have done as well as he did in the primaries.
I find it funny that this underlying meme of "personal responsibility" that is always applied to any individual receiving government benefits is never applied to the financier class.
E.g., when AIG had to be rescued by our federal tax dollars, the shareholders recouped every penny they had invested. Where is the "personal responsibility" there?
Yeah, that baffles me, too. The grifting that goes on within that demographic is epic--just look at the Trump family--yet people go on endlessly about the hardscrabble class like it's their job.
catherine
6-12-17, 11:33am
I agree completely with Bernie. This is a pluralistic country. It never has been a "Christian nation," and personal religious belief/superstition/mythology has no place in it. I found Vought's initial commentary appalling. I have no doubt he'll carry this attitude with him into his position.
I'm a bit moderate when it comes to the government staying out of faith issues. I think The Atlantic did a good job of explaining how his belief that Jesus is the only path to salvation is not an attack on the dignity of other believers. He was working for a Christian college at the time. I truly don't believe that this argument is relevant for his position, or a reason to disqualify him.
Whether or not we personally feel repulsed by the "superstition" of Christian salvation or by any other religious dogma, I think we have to keep the context in mind, and I think Bernie overstepped his bounds on this count. Otherwise, he's perfect. :)
Maybe I feel the way I do because I spent to much time as a devout Catholic. Even though I no longer subscribe to the cornerstone belief that's in question here, I still find myself a "defender of the faith" on occasion.
Being against oppression is the same as being for freedom, and I think we all want freedom.
I think that's true, although different people have different views on what constitutes both "oppression" and "freedom". The people who made anonymous death threats against that pizzeria that gave the wrong answer to a theoretical question about catering gay weddings are not, I think, in the same category as the people who held Little Round Top or waded ashore at Omaha Beach.
I agree completely with Bernie. This is a pluralistic country. It never has been a "Christian nation," and personal religious belief/superstition/mythology has no place in it. I found Vought's initial commentary appalling. I have no doubt he'll carry this attitude with him into his position.
Would you have the same objection to a believing Muslim who professed similar beliefs?
The whole kerfuffle reminded me of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine had to grapple with the situation of having a boyfriend who believed she was going to Hell. I can work with people whose moral bookkeeping system classifies me as "damned". I don't see why a theological litmus test needs to be applied to the Director of OMB.
catherine
6-12-17, 11:52am
Yeah, that baffles me, too. The grifting that goes on within that demographic is epic--just look at the Trump family--yet people go on endlessly about the hardscrabble class like it's their job.
Yup. Money as a yardstick of personal worth and entitlement is just plain wrong.
There's a moral statement that I'll gladly take to the bank.
...
Whether or not we personally feel repulsed by the "superstition" of Christian salvation or by any other religious dogma, I think we have to keep the context in mind, and I think Bernie overstepped his bounds on this count. Otherwise, he's perfect. :)
Maybe I feel the way I do because I spent to much time as a devout Catholic. Even though I no longer subscribe to the cornerstone belief that's in question here, I still find myself a "defender of the faith" on occasion.
I'm sure my ancestors--an inordinate amount of whom were Christian clergy--would disapprove, but religious beliefs like the kind expressed by Vought seem as antiquated to me as torchlight. That they were uttered before a like-minded audience makes no difference to me. I'm on the rolls of the Catholic Church through no agency of my own.
"Traditional values" are arguable, I guess. I believe in the traditional values of honesty, kindness, charity--and yes, self-reliance--but not in the persecution of people for their sexuality or for their reproductive decisions. Or for their religion, for that matter, though I believe religion is best practiced, as Jesus suggested, alone in a closet (Matthew 6:6).
Does it matter that 2/3 of people receiving government assistance work or live in a household with a working adult, and that in half of those cases it's a fulltime job that pays so little that they are still eligible for benefits?
http://www.ibtimes.com/two-thirds-people-welfare-are-working-or-have-family-member-whos-working-2292060
Makes you wonder is the assistance for the people receiving it? Or for the employers so they can pay low wages?
Or for their religion, for that matter, though I believe religion is best practiced, as Jesus suggested, alone in a closet (Matthew 6:6).
I suspect your ancestors would chide you for misreading that particular text.
Matthew was referring to prayer, not the complete practice of the faith. Actions informed by faith should probably be the most important and visible aspect. Saint Francis said (or at least is said to have said) something like we should preach the gospel, using words where necessary.
Makes you wonder is the assistance for the people receiving it? Or for the employers so they can pay low wages?
I'm reading $2.00 a Day: Living on Almost Nothing in America and their assertion is that there are more active stamp collectors in America than welfare recipients, since TANF replaced the old system. Interesting read.
I suspect your ancestors would chide you for misreading that particular text.
Matthew was referring to prayer, not the complete practice of the faith. Actions informed by faith should probably be the most important and visible aspect. Saint Francis said (or at least is said to have said) something like we should preach the gospel, using words where necessary.
You're probably right, and I agree completely with the idea that deeds speak much more loudly than (often hypocritical and self-serving) words.
I suspect your ancestors would chide you for misreading that particular text.
Matthew was referring to prayer, not the complete practice of the faith. Actions informed by faith should probably be the most important and visible aspect. Saint Francis said (or at least is said to have said) something like we should preach the gospel, using words where necessary.
That is one of my peeves with religious text - on the one hand you have people thumping it and "this is what it says and it was handed down from a divine source so we have to follow it as written!". And then when someone else points out something it says, they are told "oh - but that's not really what it means so we have to do something different from what it says".
iris lilies
6-12-17, 12:53pm
One things I wish we could do here is debate the actual posts of the actual people who post here.
debating all of those religious crazies, who dont come here or post here, seems silly.
Just my wish, no one will oay any mind to it.
I like this idea, IL, so I am definitely paying mind to it! I will try to do that going forth, I think its a great suggestion.
Anyway, to get back to the OP, not having to be in the position to micromanage people's spending choices with my moral choices while still providing a safety net is exactly why I'm in favor of the Universal Basic Income.
That is one of my peeves with religious text - on the one hand you have people thumping it and "this is what it says and it was handed down from a divine source so we have to follow it as written!". And then when someone else points out something it says, they are told "oh - but that's not really what it means so we have to do something different from what it says".
That is true in many cases, but the section of the Sermon on the Mount that starts with " when you pray" doesn't seem all that ambiguous to me.
So here is a real life example. I have three children. One just bought a quarter million dollar house in Texas. He and his wife work in the food service industry. My daughter is a state employee with a husband that works in a privately owned janitorial supply company. They just bought a nice ranch home. And my oldest who works in tool and die, divorced with child support, lives with a girl friend who also works in tool and die. They are looking at buying a $19,000 trailer in a seedy trailer park. All three were raised with the same opportunity, given the same financial supports. And have turned out markedly different due to......choices.
Yes, I think money-sense is hard-wired in a way. I've told this story before, but I love it, so bear with me: When my DS was 7 and my DD was 6, the three of us lived in a hotel in a mall in St. Louis for 3 months. Can you imagine LIVING in a mall with two children? I knew I had to set limits, so I gave them each a $5/week allowance.
DS spent his $5 as soon as he got it and often asked for an advance.
OTOH, the first week we were there, DD saw a pencil case she really wanted in the Disney Store, but it was $30. So she decided to save up for it. Week after week she stockpiled her $5 bills, until she had the $30 she needed for the pencil case. I took her down to the store, and she took the pencil case off the rack, looked in her wallet at the bills, looked at the pencil case, looked at the bills, and then put the pencil case back. At 6 years old, she knew about money vs life energy. It is funny how different people are in the same family.
ApatheticNoMore
6-12-17, 1:29pm
Anyway, to get back to the OP, not having to be in the position to micromanage people's spending choices with my moral choices while still providing a safety net is exactly why I'm in favor of the Universal Basic Income.
I question how it will work and whether it will be inflationary, for instance imagine everyone gets a $1000 check in the mail from the government, nice huh? But imagine rents go up $1000 soon after - well then so much for actually being any better for that check. Maybe affordable housing would have been a better idea (actually not an idea that has had much success either as far as I know, but you get where I'm going, goods in kind might actually work better. One could see healthcare being another inflationary thing and we might be better off with goods in kind aka universal healthcare. etc.).
I don't really favor micromanaging whether the poor are buying health food or not. I suppose this is supposed to be some kind of compromise position. Ok it's hardly the end of the world to restrict potato chips and candy and cookies (it's just kind of arrogant to pretend middle class people never eat those things, but there are worse sins). But I'm not sure who one is even compromising with. I mean if the current congress wants to cut benefits, they probably aren't going to just cut them for buying cookies. And true AFDC welfare was already eliminated (a compromise?), but it doesn't stop anyone from wanting to cut food stamps, however it really did increase poverty including of course of children.
Someone at the grocery store might be angry at someone using their food stamps to buy Snickers bars, eh well Snickers bars don't provide nutrition, and the angry person maybe needs to grow up. Maybe they work hard at a sucky horrible job for their income and good for them I guess, but getting angry at the person buying Snickers bars isn't actually going to improve THEIR situation in any way. Maybe they need political solutions to improve it (like say the overtime law Obama proposed as they are working a bunch of uncompensated overtime), but cutting food stamps won't do it. So how long should one privilege them doing this in the voting booth because "they feel angry" even if it does no good? (yes of course they and anyone have a right to vote, I mean the concerns are not worthy of much is all, voting out of unthinking anger really isn't all that)
BikingLady
6-12-17, 1:31pm
Universal Basic Income, what is this?
just read above post, but do not understand this plan.
In this profit-driven country, I agree with the ever-practical ApatheticNoMore that landlords and others would just jack up prices to cash in on the phenomenon.
You can have my Snickers bar when you pry it from my cold dead hand.
You can have my Snickers bar when you pry it from my cold dead hand.
Yeah--as treats go, Snickers at least has some nutritional value, aside from tasting good.
Yeah--as treats go, Snickers at least has some nutritional value, aside from tasting good.
Life is for enjoying; not masticating leaves.
Update to my earlier post: Lyle Jeffs arrested.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/15/533051035/lyle-jeffs-polygamist-accused-of-fraud-arrested-after-nearly-a-year-on-the-run
My hope is that they can shut down these towns where raping of 13 year old girls is underwritten by taxpayers because of adult males gaming government food stamps and other benefits.
My hope is that they can shut down these towns where raping of 13 year old girls is underwritten by taxpayers because of adult males gaming government food stamps and other benefits.
Hmm, I thought you were talking about sanctuary cities or certain Islamic enclaves, but I'm now guessing not.
ToomuchStuff
6-15-17, 5:07pm
i would eliminate those programs, and switch over to a universal basic income setup.
I am interested in what you mean by this, as universal could mean every member of this country, which includes minors. Also I don't see how this would actually be saving any money, as the cost would be what? (and what would the consequences be to social security, or all that money people paid into under the program)
In response to so many other posts...
There is instances of what I would view of fraud, that I am aware of (couple doesn't marry, house only under ones name, while the other gets benefits), as well as instances that have been suspended due to fraud (people selling benefits for $.50 on the dollar and the store collecting the full 100%, without the inventory moving). One program I am aware of, stopped in excess of 7 figure fraud in my state.
Then you have all the loopholes that people who are on, or have been in the system, tend to know. (if you buy a food before you cook/heat it, you can buy it, but if it is already cooked, you can't)
I have known people who became eligible for the system and used it for their benefits, while they then qualified for some other programs, paid their way through school, and became functional members of society.
While someone else I know, spews hate at anything Republican, loves Democrats and says he does so much better under their rule, which he does, because his (now former/retired just a couple months ago) job, receives benefits of these programs and targets that audience (grocery store, in poor area). Yet he complains about his very customers and can't make the connection. He consistently would argue with another friend of mine, until that friend of mine pointed out, he owned a time clock, while the other worked for one (different viewpoints/issues the one had no comprehension of).
I've been approached by those wanting to sell their "benefits" for cash.
Had a discussion yesterday, with a friend, who has an employee, who can't pay for his stuff, and is always taking time off or leaving work early (did again yesterday, after complaining he can't pay his bills) and doesn't make the connection.
When this thread first started, I had had a conversation with an acquaintance and a mutual friend about one of our former baseball players, who went on to work for the Yankees and he spent his entire $25 million dollars from them, on a house in L.A. and was broke in two years (kind of have to have money to live on, you know).
Money is a tool and there are lots of those who are throughout the spectrum, that will be stupid with it.
Going to stop here, like I said earlier, this could be really long.
I think that people holding "traditional values" are still a significant element of the GOP base. They're just not the decisive element they used to be, else a sleaze like Mr. Trump would not have done as well as he did in the primaries.
While I agree with you that the religious right has lost the culture war they don't realize it yet. People like me, adults with financial independence, don't suffer their BS much npanymore, but they are still doing their best to screw over the lives of the vulnerable in the LGBT community like teenagers.
https://thinkprogress.org/texas-governor-signs-religious-freedom-lgbtq-youth-discrimination-bill-749cf6b94ec0
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