View Full Version : Flag protocol
It seems like more and more people don't put their hand over their heart during the national anthem. Why do you think this has changed? just a society shift or are people less patriotic than they were 20 years ago? I don't really have any ideas. This "horrible" trend is discussed often among my older friends..I tend to see it as not particularly a lessening of patriotism, but just a society shift.
Well, if the POTUS has to be prodded by his (immigrant) wife, as if he were a child, why should we the people care?
To be honest, I haven't paid attention to this as a trend.
I don't say the Pledge. And I'm very ambivalent about the "patriotism" of "saluting the flag".
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/rules-about-how-to-address-us-flag-came-about-because-no-one-wanted-to-look-like-a-nazi-180960100/
Nice article.
I was raised Mennonite where we questioned whether we should pledge allegiance to anyone other than God himself. There were all kinds of levels of standing, reciting, singing, hand on heart, or the lack of any of the above. It was left up to each individual conscience.
I modify the pledge, omitting the phrase "under God" and inserting "the goal of" before "liberty and justice for all".
Many years ago I swore a solemn pledge to protect and defend the constitution of the United States. The American Flag, as a symbol of the country I volunteered to serve, deserves the respect and honor I've pledged.
During my service days, I saluted the flag during Reveille and Retreat or when it passed by. As a veteran, I placed my hand over my heart during flag ceremonies, while reciting the Pledge or during the National Anthem. As a result of the National Defense Authorization Act of 2008, I can now do either at will, and I do, proudly.
I recall that in public schools we had to say the pledge of allegiance every morning and there was a flag guard to raise and lower the flag daily. We all had to put our hands over our heart. Perhaps patriotism as such isn't "taught" in schools anymore. I don't really know but I doubt it. We also had Texas patriotism rubbed in our noses as we had to sing "The Eyes of Texas" after the pledge.
ToomuchStuff
6-30-17, 12:28am
Bae, thanks for the article.
I haven't saluted in a long time. This is in part due to a debate that started long ago, about things such as burning the flag, and while people in our school were debating this, the schools procedure to raise the flag was not inline with what it preached. They drug the flag across the ground when they went to hang up the flag.
BikingLady
6-30-17, 5:16am
Changing values over all. Yes at my ripe old age I remember the pledge over the speaker on the wall and we all stood with hand over heart. Now however looking at old black and white pictures of little kids doing this, It looks very strange.
Many years ago I swore a solemn pledge to protect and defend the constitution of the United States. The American Flag, as a symbol of the country I volunteered to serve, deserves the respect and honor I've pledged.
During my service days, I saluted the flag during Reveille and Retreat or when it passed by. As a veteran, I placed my hand over my heart during flag ceremonies, while reciting the Pledge or during the National Anthem. As a result of the National Defense Authorization Act of 2008, I can now do either at will, and I do, proudly.
I'm with you. As far as the flag is concerned, my view hasn't changed since I was eight years old. I think of the flag on the Moon. I think of Rick Monday snatching the flag from a couple of vermin trying to burn it in the outfield. I think of the flag they'll drape over my coffin.
I think people have every right to question or disrespect or even desecrate the flag and its meaning. I just don't think they have any power to detract from it.
I modify the pledge, omitting the phrase "under God" and inserting "the goal of" before "liberty and justice for all".
Likewise, I skip the "under God" part. But I'm with bae. I don't like loyalty oaths. I don't recall the last time I saluted the flag.
Patriotism is generally a pose people assume, IMO. It's what people do--actions, not words--that count.
Our local Indivisible group is reciting the pledge of allegiance before every meeting now. I did not do this in high school--part of Vietnam era protest--and don't feel comfortable doing it now. It will keep me from attending their meetings to see what is going on there, and these were Bernie people in my town.
I think it is odd that this is back, in this form.
Our local Indivisible group is reciting the pledge of allegiance before every meeting now. ....
I think it is odd that this is back, in this form.
Perhaps it is a defensive response to those who try to insist that anti-government protest means protestors are anti-American.
I remember years ago reading an internet poster who said that if he pasted, say, an anti-war sticker on his car bumper, he made sure to paste an American flag sticker right next to it. Seems to remind people that protest is as American as our flag.
Likewise, I skip the "under God" part. But I'm with bae. I don't like loyalty oaths. I don't recall the last time I saluted the flag.
Patriotism is generally a pose people assume, IMO. It's what people do--actions, not words--that count.
Loyalty oaths and generally all kowtowing are done by two kinds of people - the ones who really believe, and the ones who lie about it. And often many seem more concerned with getting people to join the lie than actually believing. I'll be respectfully silent, but I'm not joining in.
Thanks for the discussion, it gives me something to think about. I live in the upper Midwest where pretty much everyone feels everyone has to be just like them to be an American! I tend to be more live and let live, that we aren't in the middle of WWII anymore, which seems to be where they are frozen.
awakenedsoul
7-4-17, 4:04pm
I always enjoyed reciting the pledge of allegiance in school as a young girl. We also used to sing songs following it: The National Anthem, California Here I Come, and America the Beautiful. It gave our morning a positive start and structure. We also did exercises. The whole routine made me feel happy and ready to start learning.
I still put my hand over my heart and honor these traditions. I appreciate the athletes who publicly do the same. I have lived and worked all over the world, and am really thankful that I was born here. (especially now.)
I am not comfortable with "public displays of patriotism". Around here it seems many of the public displays are done by people who seem to be less accepting of different people and ideas. I remember when Bush invaded Iraq and all of a sudden at noon the radio had "patriotic" songs, really war promotion songs. It made me edgy and uncomfortable. I KNOW there are people with love in their hearts for our country, but I think most of them aren't ostentatious about it, just quiet patriots doing the right things to better the world. In truth, I don't like public displays of affection or religion or politics. I remember when they put "under God" in the pledge, I must have been in second grade as I had learned it in first grade, then needed to add those words. Our mornings started with the pledge and a bible reading (public school). I did love learning all the patriotic songs . I don't know if they still learn those in schools.
We also used to sing songs following it: California Here I Come,
I wonder how many states have songs like that. We didn't sing ours every day, but when I was a kid everyone had to learn the Colorado song in elementary school. To this day that song still makes me happy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kuCnrSkeao
awakenedsoul
7-6-17, 12:20am
Me, too. Children love singing and dancing. I still sing those songs in my kitchen every morning. It's a reminder to me of how I felt, naturally, as a child. It's also a way of setting my intention. I want to stay positive in my feelings about this country and its future.
We also used to do these funny dances at lunchtime. It was very healthy. The teacher, Mr. Hoover, brought out a stereo to the playground. I think it was every Friday. We absolutely loved it. It was simple choreography, and easy to learn: The Hokey Pokey, that kind of thing...
iris lilies
7-6-17, 7:33am
Our local Indivisible group is reciting the pledge of allegiance before every meeting now. I did not do this in high school--part of Vietnam era protest--and don't feel comfortable doing it now. It will keep me from attending their meetings to see what is going on there, and these were Bernie people in my town.
I think it is odd that this is back, in this form.
I think that's an nterestng choice of activity, but a good one. It serves to unify intent of the group, to remind them that they all are there to advance progress of the U.S.
Maybe a rousing chorus of God Bless America (oh wait, God is there, nope) or My Country Tis of Thee
would serve the same purpose. It is just that God Bless America is the easiest of the three anthems to,sing. i didnt mention Star Spangled
banner because it is ridiculous to sing.
I think that's an nterestng choice of activity, but a good one. It serves to unify intent of the group, to remind them that they all are there to advance progress of the U.S.
Maybe a rousing chorus of God Bless America (oh wait, God is there, nope) or My Country Tis of Thee
would serve the same purpose. It is just that God Bless America is the easiest of the three anthems to,sing. i didnt mention Star Spangled
banner because it is ridiculous to sing.
I love our national anthem! It's so gloriously defiant and bloody-minded.
Williamsmith
7-6-17, 9:58am
I am not especially zealous when it comes to displaying the flag. I own one that was raised and flown in Iraq. Standing before the flag does not inspire me to national patriotism......it reminds me of individual sacrifice that has happened to benefit me and my comfortable position. For that I place my hand over my heart and remember thankfully.
The house we bought came with a giant telescoping flagpole (at least to top of second floor) set in concrete in the entry garden amidst the roses. It must have held a huge American flag with a previous owner. I kidded to DH that we ought to irritate the neighbors and fly all kinds of flags - a Texas flag, a gay flag, skull and cross bones. We could do that back in Austin with nary a hitch but it would not sit kindly with the folks on this street.
The house we bought came with a giant telescoping flagpole (at least to top of second floor) set in concrete in the entry garden amidst the roses. It must have held a huge American flag with a previous owner. I kidded to DH that we ought to irritate the neighbors and fly all kinds of flags - a Texas flag, a gay flag, skull and cross bones. We could do that back in Austin with nary a hitch but it would not sit kindly with the folks on this street.
Ha! Fly all three at once. That will scramble their brains.
Williamsmith
7-6-17, 6:28pm
The house we bought came with a giant telescoping flagpole (at least to top of second floor) set in concrete in the entry garden amidst the roses. It must have held a huge American flag with a previous owner. I kidded to DH that we ought to irritate the neighbors and fly all kinds of flags - a Texas flag, a gay flag, skull and cross bones. We could do that back in Austin with nary a hitch but it would not sit kindly with the folks on this street.
I live in a community where the only flag permitted to be flown is the official flag of the United States. It is in writing.
I live in a community where the only flag permitted to be flown is the official flag of the United States. It is in writing. I don't know... I like living in a place where you can let your freak flag fly! ;)
William, there was something in the news recently about someone is a community such as yours and they made him take down his Marine Corps flag. He flew the US flag, higher of course, as well.
I live in a community where the only flag permitted to be flown is the official flag of the United States. It is in writing.
Ick :-(
William, there was something in the news recently about someone is a community such as yours and they made him take down his Marine Corps flag. He flew the US flag, higher of course, as well.
Wow! Where is Lee Greenwood when you need him?
I live in a community where the only flag permitted to be flown is the official flag of the United States. It is in writing.
I assume this is an HOA rule? Imagine the howls if an HOA tried to impinge on the 2nd amendment as much as this does on the first.
ToomuchStuff
7-7-17, 12:54am
I assume this is an HOA rule? Imagine the howls if an HOA tried to impinge on the 2nd amendment as much as this does on the first.
While a HOA is a contract, in some respects, there is a comparison with places like CA and cities like Chicago.
While a HOA is a contract, in some respects, there is a comparison with places like CA and cities like Chicago.
If the HOA were just a covenant I would agree with you about it being a contract. But it's not. It's more like a creepy super-local government that wants to micro-manage everyone in their jurisdiction with the primary concern being keeping up property values. I've never lived in one and never will. Just as no one ever said on their death bed "I wish I'd spent more time at the office" I doubt many people on their death bed have said "I wish I'd done more to maintain my neighborhood's property values." At least in CA I'm able to hang out whatever flag I choose.
ToomuchStuff
7-7-17, 1:31am
If the HOA were just a covenant I would agree with you about it being a contract. But it's not. It's more like a creepy super-local government that wants to micro-manage everyone in their jurisdiction with the primary concern being keeping up property values. I've never lived in one and never will. Just as no one ever said on their death bed "I wish I'd spent more time at the office" I doubt many people on their death bed have said "I wish I'd done more to maintain my neighborhood's property values." At least in CA I'm able to hang out whatever flag I choose.
Because you agreed to letting them control you, by contract.
Relative living in a neighborhood, where there was one. His neighbor had been there long enough, he choose not to join it when it was formed. In a way, he had the best of both worlds, as the group kept up property values, but he didn't have to check to do landscaping, or paint colors, etc.
My view on them, involves two words the second of which is off.
Williamsmith
7-7-17, 10:30am
It is a restriction outlined by the bylaws of the HOA which you become a member of as soon as you own property within the private community. I don't fly flags.....so the restriction means nothing to me except that I will say it is nice to know that the Nazi flag or a Communist flag won't be flying nearby....or for some the confederate stars and bars. There are certainly sacrifices one must make but they are restricted to outside matters. My extensive firearms collection is in no danger. I moved here for the privacy. I don't have people soliciting at my door, he media isn't free to walk up to my porch and ask me about some case I worked on that is unsolved, there are eyes constantly everywhere alert to any strangers or potential burglars or thieves and My investment is protected by a group of board members who have only the interest of the community in mind. It's a give and take.
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