View Full Version : Will Trump behave himself at the G20 summit?
I'm not sure what to expect. I hope he's been briefed/cautioned to death what NOT to say. He'll probably want to be BFFs with Putin, but darn it, someone going with him will (hopefully) put a stop to it and ruin his fun.
Seriously.........I don't think Trump has any idea what to say or to whom. Let's keep our collective fingers crossed that he doesn't embarrass the U.S. again.
iris lilies
7-5-17, 4:32pm
I think it is a foregone conclusion that he will embarrass you, regardless of what he utters or doesnt utter.
Williamsmith
7-5-17, 4:34pm
I'm not sure what to expect. I hope he's been briefed/cautioned to death what NOT to say. He'll probably want to be BFFs with Putin, but darn it, someone going with him will (hopefully) put a stop to it and ruin his fun.
Seriously.........I don't think Trump has any idea what to say or to whom. Let's keep our collective fingers crossed that he doesn't embarrass the U.S. again.
Frankly, I think things are going just fine.
Iris Lilies.......you're so consistent!
You know, both of the previous comments show the huge divide there is. Even if I were 100% Republican (and I do have some Republican and some Democrat beliefs), I still wouldn't find Trump's behavior appropriate. And your comment IL, seems very curious to me. There's a matter of reasonable presidential behavior. Surely you can differentiate what is fairly decent/reasonable behavior from that which is not. I'm rather irritated by your comment. Why do you need to be so rude?
Williamsmith
7-5-17, 4:50pm
You know, both of the previous comments show the huge divide there is. Even if I were 100% Republican (and I do have some Republican and some Democrat beliefs), I still wouldn't find Trump's behavior appropriate. And your comment IL, seems very curious to me. There's a matter of reasonable presidential behavior. Surely you can differentiate what is fairly decent/reasonable behavior from that which is not. I'm rather irritated by your comment. Why do you need to be so rude?
CathyA.......were you as offended by President Clinton as you are Trump? Keeping in mind that receiving oral sex and ejaculating on the dress of a Whitehouse Intern while in the Oval Office is hardly.....Presidential. So the bar has already been set quite high...wouldn't you agree?
I'm not sure what to expect. I hope he's been briefed/cautioned to death what NOT to say. He'll probably want to be BFFs with Putin, but darn it, someone going with him will (hopefully) put a stop to it and ruin his fun.
Seriously.........I don't think Trump has any idea what to say or to whom. Let's keep our collective fingers crossed that he doesn't embarrass the U.S. again.
of course not and he will embarrass the US again.
I am afraid that the few things he has done which I agree with, will be overshadowed by his goofy behavior.
Only way to keep him from tweeting is to cut off his fingers...........
CathyA.......were you as offended by President Clinton as you are Trump? Keeping in mind that receiving oral sex and ejaculating on the dress of a Whitehouse Intern while in the Oval Office is hardly.....Presidential. So the bar has already been set quite high...wouldn't you agree?
OF COURSE I thought that was totally inappropriate!! But you just can't compare the 2 of them. Trump knows very little about anything political. He's self-centered and defiant. I could go on and on with adjectives. He's totally immature.
Clinton did a lot of good things, in spite of his total lapse of judgment with Lewinsky.......but there's still no comparison whatsoever between these 2 presidents.
It's not clear to me if the embarrassment feared here is stylistic or substantive.
On the issues, it's hard to see much new coming up. It's pretty clear that he doesn't like grand trade deals. His neoprotectionism clashes with Mrs. Merkel's neomercantilism. He upsets many of our NATO partners when he says (probably correctly) most of them aren't carrying their weight. There's the climate change thing. He rudely says out loud what the world has already known about Chinese currency fiddles. He generally rubs international elites the same wrong way he does American elites.
But none of this is new.
Teacher Terry
7-5-17, 5:58pm
He has only done one thing that I agree with and that is he recently sent 4k troops to Poland to protect them from Russia. Poland is only 1 of 5 European countries that are paying their fair share to Nato according to Trump. I agree that what Clinton did was not Presidential but really you can not even begin to compare that to the kind of President Trump is. He has not the slightest clue what he is doing and is rude and arrogant besides being stupid. Cathy I would be very shocked if he is able to hold it together, not look like a fool, not insult a few people/countries, etc but one can always hope >:(
iris lilies
7-5-17, 6:24pm
You know, both of the previous comments show the huge divide there is. Even if I were 100% Republican (and I do have some Republican and some Democrat beliefs), I still wouldn't find Trump's behavior appropriate. And your comment IL, seems very curious to me. There's a matter of reasonable presidential behavior. Surely you can differentiate what is fairly decent/reasonable behavior from that which is not. I'm rather irritated by your comment. Why do you need to be so rude?
You can be as irritated as you like, its a free country.
Do you really believe that the entire Presidential trip will go without amythhing that irritates you? What do you think the odds are of that? You are predisposed to being anmoyed by Trump, do you agree?
As far as differentiation, has there already been some action of the President in this
G20 summit that we need to dissect and determine as "decent/reasonable" or otherwise?
CathyA.......were you as offended by President Clinton as you are Trump? Keeping in mind that receiving oral sex and ejaculating on the dress of a Whitehouse Intern while in the Oval Office is hardly.....Presidential. So the bar has already been set quite high...wouldn't you agree?
I believe Clinton was inappropriate with one woman...not Presidential but Trump is offensive to ALL woman! Therein, lies the difference!
Williamsmith
7-5-17, 9:05pm
I believe Clinton was inappropriate with one woman...not Presidential but Trump is offensive to ALL woman! Therein, lies the difference!
Juanita Broaddrick, Paula Jones, Kathleen Wiley and Kathy Shelton ....that makes five but who's counting? Look, I agree....you have the right to choose who you are offended by but to say there's much of a difference is a stretch.
You can be as irritated as you like, its a free country.
Do you really believe that the entire Presidential trip will go without amythhing that irritates you? What do you think the odds are of that? You are predisposed to being anmoyed by Trump, do you agree?
As far as differentiation, has there already been some action of the President in this
G20 summit that we need to dissect and determine as "decent/reasonable" or otherwise?
"Predisposed"? I don't care what political side anyone is one. His personal behaviors should concern anyone and everyone. He's egotistical and unstable. I realize that republicans don't want to lose their advantage in the White House/Congress. But accepting or ignoring Trump's various irrational/self-serving/juvenile behaviors just doesn't make sense. I respect those republican congresspeople who believe in some of Trump's ideas/plans, but totally do not accept his behavior. And if you find nothing wrong with his behavior......well, that's your "right"........but I find it very curious that one might accept this continuing behavior in any U.S. president.
iris lilies
7-5-17, 9:45pm
"Predisposed"? I don't care what political side anyone is one. His personal behaviors should concern anyone and everyone. He's egotistical and unstable. I realize that republicans don't want to lose their advantage in the White House/Congress. But accepting or ignoring Trump's various irrational/self-serving/juvenile behaviors just doesn't make sense. I respect those republican congresspeople who believe in some of Trump's ideas/plans, but totally do not accept his behavior. And if you find nothing wrong with his behavior......well, that's your "right"........but I find it very curious that one might accept this continuing behavior in any U.S. president.
Are you expecting to find any of Trump's behavior at this conference acceptable?
What was the point of your thread here? I see it as a vent and that is no problem with that, but is that what you intended?
iris lilies
7-5-17, 9:50pm
I believe Clinton was inappropriate with one woman...not Presidential but Trump is offensive to ALL woman! Therein, lies the difference!
"Offensive to all women" is hyperbole. I know plenty of women for whom he is not "offensive," and I think you mean this as he is sexist. You dont get to speak for all women.
I find both Clinton's past attitude and Trump's attitude toward women offensive. They are both wrong and it's not just women who are offended. I think the best presidential comparison outside of womanizing is Nixon and Trump except Nixon created the EPA and Trump is working at dismantling it.
I could see Trump and Putin comparing wrestling holds at the summit.
I could see Trump and Putin comparing wrestling holds at the summit.
Personally I'm waiting to see the handshake. Not that I'd like a US president to fall flat on his face from a handshake but if Twump does then oh well. Maybe karma is real after all.
I could see Trump and Putin comparing wrestling holds at the summit.
Putin has written a pretty good book about competitive judo, holds high-ranked black belts in judo, karate, and sambo, and has experience in Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling. Some of the belts are not honorary - he legitimately competed in his youth. He's still pretty spry, and actively promotes the sports.
I think he'd break Trump in half with a handshake.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1fT_PProJAM/hqdefault.jpg
Putin has written a pretty good book about competitive judo, holds high-ranked black belts in judo, karate, and sambo, and has experience in Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling. Some of the belts are not honorary - he legitimately competed in his youth. He's still pretty spry, and actively promotes the sports.
I think he'd break Trump in half with a handshake.
One can only hope. :~)
Most of our presidents have had lovers--even, reportedly, Dwight Eisenhower, who is a favorite of mine. Clinton's indiscretions were only notable for being publicly revealed.
gimmethesimplelife
7-6-17, 10:46am
One thing I will say about Donald Trump - constant fear and shame and embarrassment of him and what he stands for has in it's own strange way been good for the 85006. Folks here are getting more unified, more willing to get involved in protesting, making calls, sending emails, writing letters, getting to know their neighbors - there was much of this going on before Trump due to justified terror of the police/police brutality but now the residents of the 85006 seem to realize that this is a price tag of living in America - insane government that works against you and not for you. By getting involved in The Resistance, I've had the chance to meet more of the neighborhood and it's really nice and heart warming to live in them middle of Central Phoenix but yet feel at times that I'm in a small town as I run across people I know often and stop and chat at least for a few minutes if I can.
So there's some good. But as far as Donald Trump's behavior overall? Seems to me by now we have been conditioned as a nation to expect nothing less than shame, and intense embarrassment and humiliation from this President. Par for the course with the Orange One in charge........Rob
PS I came back to add that maybe we of the 85006 can not change anything - but at least our actions don't add to the problem. There is some solace in that.
Williamsmith
7-6-17, 10:49am
Most of our presidents have had lovers--even, reportedly, Dwight Eisenhower, who is a favorite of mine. Clinton's indiscretions were only notable for being publicly revealed.
Having a secret paramour is patently different than using your position of power to take advantage of a young impressionable intern or to coerce or force sexual favors upon unwilling targets of opportunity. I am continually amazed at the lengths to which women will come to the defense of The Wizard of "Is".
It's interesting to see how all the knees are jerking before the man utters a single syllable.
Williamsmith
7-6-17, 11:00am
People like Rob.......are going to have to learn to pace themselves. Trump could very easily finish out this term and be elected again. By then, perhaps the media will have self destructed and we will get all the news via twitter. Kinda like returning to the telegraph and the pony express.
I like a lot of his stated policy. However, I can't picture inviting the Orange One to dinner.......but I would cook for his wife.
Having a secret paramour is patently different than using your position of power to take advantage of a young impressionable intern or to coerce or force sexual favors upon unwilling targets of opportunity. I am continually amazed at the lengths to which women will come to the defense of The Wizard of "Is".
Monica Lewinsky reportedly actively sought his attention. Also, she was hardly a timid virgin, having already enjoyed a five-year affair with a married man. I'm not excusing either of them, just pointing our that presidential indiscretions are the rule, not the exception.
It's interesting to see how all the knees are jerking before the man utters a single syllable.
Are you kidding me? He hasn't quit uttering single syllables! Believe it! lol!
Can you honestly say that you think his behavior is fine? It's not even sorta fine. It's just awful, and unacceptable in ANYONE.....but he's our Pre.......Pres......Presi...........I just can't say it!
It's interesting to see how all the knees are jerking before the man utters a single syllable.
Actually he's already had his first press conference and it was as sad as the rest of his presidency.
It's interesting to see how all the knees are jerking before the man utters a single syllable.
A conditioned response based on previous experience.
From what I know, it will be interesting to see any outcome of his request to Russia and China over N. Korea. After bad mouthing China over trade and currency manipulation, not to mention starting the global warming hoax, he now needs some cooperation to deal with the nuclear threat. Other than bravado and bluff the U.S. really doesn't have many non-violent deterrents left in their options.
I've gotten the sense that Trump speaks his mind when he's away from leaders he doesn't like.......but has trouble being brave in their presence.
And the only time where he speaks like an educated grown-up is when he is reading verbatim from his notes......that I'm sure someone else wrote for him.
ApatheticNoMore
7-6-17, 12:28pm
I don't know that Trump will really have that much trouble with the rest of the world at a G20 summit (possibly protectionism though I wouldn't count on him for fighting reliably for that if that is what one wanted, possibly climate change). Mostly Trump may be a disaster for the poor citizens of the U.S., but frankly that really isn't a problem the rest of the world cares about, that is problem of the poor people living here. The rest of the world may care about trade and to a lesser extent about climate change (well of course money comes first).
Bill Clinton hmm, it's a different kind of disaster than Trump, Bill Clinton actually understood politics and much about the world, which doesn't mean all his policies were good, merely that he wasn't completely clueless. And so he had that going for him even with Lewinsky.
As for Lewinsky, basically all relationships with such an extreme power imbalance are somewhat exploitative (and no it's not the less powerful person's (Lewinsky's) fault). Extreme age differences like that where one person is still quite young, and the other much older, are almost always exploitative in a way (plus an intern and the president, talk about a power imbalance). So no it's not Lewinsky with the power, and yes it is a rather screwed up situation, but what can you do, it's legal and they are adults, and it might also be cruel to Hillary (duh, cheating on one's wife isn't usually being a good husband unless it's an open marriage) but neither did she divorce him.
gimmethesimplelife
7-6-17, 1:31pm
People like Rob.......are going to have to learn to pace themselves. Trump could very easily finish out this term and be elected again. By then, perhaps the media will have self destructed and we will get all the news via twitter. Kinda like returning to the telegraph and the pony express.
I like a lot of his stated policy. However, I can't picture inviting the Orange One to dinner.......but I would cook for his wife.We of the 85006 can be counted on to (in legal ways only) work against the Orange One having a second go at power. We can be counted on to agitate for Democrats only to be elected in 2018 so as to block the Orange One from further human rights reductions and further erosion of the value of US citizenship viewed the a lens of human rights and also the desirability of the citizenship to begin with.
I have a hard time believing that the 85006 is the only zip in this large country of over 300 million that will be mobilizing in such a way. Rob
iris lilies
7-6-17, 1:49pm
It's interesting to see how all the knees are jerking before the man utters a single syllable.
Maybe whats really bugging me is the level of hysteria and hyperbole directed toward Trump because I think will help to re-elect him in 4 years.
Just chill, people, and address actual events of the G20, not future fantasies.
gimmethesimplelife
7-6-17, 2:03pm
Maybe whats really bugging me is the level of hysteria and hyperbole directed toward Trump because I think will help to re-elect him in 4 years.
Just chill, people, and address actual events of the G20, not future fantasies.I disagree. Many people in the 85006 who can't work for LEGIT reasons are finding new satisfaction with life as part of The Resistance. I can't speak for the entire metro Phoenix area but in my zip....which I won't repeat again as you'all know it by now - there is a strong sense of ownership in working against the Orange One. To not work against him is to be guilty of quality of life reductions and quality of citizenship reductions and like most people in my zip code, I'm not OK with being quiet, looking the other way and being complicit in these reductions. Rob
... but now the residents of the 85006 seem to realize that this is a price tag of living in America - insane government that works against you and not for you. By getting involved in The Resistance,....
"The Resistance". How precious.
Rob, I know people who were in The Resistance. In France. During WWII. Where they faced a bullet in the back of the head in a dark alley as their reward every day and night.
I know people who in the secrecy of their homes produced and distributed underground political literature in the Soviet Union, their reward an all-expenses-paid trip to the Gulag or the psychological treatment center if their actions came to the notice of the authorities.
I know a fine old lady who went down to Birmingham one fine day in 1961...
I know a white civil rights attorney, working with William Kunstler, who almost got himself lynched defending people in the South one summer night.
"The Resistance"....
ApatheticNoMore
7-6-17, 2:20pm
although it's a little conceited there is a lot in the world and in this country to resist, the problem is "The Resistance" (tm) often seems to be mostly just a bunch of Democrats, who are at best merely a lesser evil most of the time. I know that's not everyone involved in protest etc. but it seems to be a decent chunk of people who call themselves "The Resistance".
Maybe whats really bugging me is the level of hysteria and hyperbole directed toward Trump because I think will help to re-elect him in 4 years.
Just chill, people, and address actual events of the G20, not future fantasies.
I think Rogar had it right. There seems to be a sort of Pavlovian response to the very thought of him in some quarters. It's like Trump is the villain they've been yearning for suddenly made flesh.
I've got no particular love for the guy, but am willing to wait for him to insult some leader or use the wrong fork before I fly into a sputtering rage.
Williamsmith
7-6-17, 2:40pm
We of the 85006 can be counted on to (in legal ways only) work against the Orange One having a second go at power. We can be counted on to agitate for Democrats only to be elected in 2018 so as to block the Orange One from further human rights reductions and further erosion of the value of US citizenship viewed the a lens of human rights and also the desirability of the citizenship to begin with.
I have a hard time believing that the 85006 is the only zip in this large country of over 300 million that will be mobilizing in such a way. Rob
Historically, the Democrats have been the ones to institutionalize "human rights reductions" and "further erosion of the value of US citizenship". Don't get me wrong...Republicans are pretty much guilty by omission in my book but you've been sold one large horse hockey puck and it has a big "D" branded on it. It must wear you out to see things so clearly, so succinctly and so convincingly and utterly hopeless all the time.
It must wear you out to see things so clearly, so succinctly and so convincingly and utterly hopeless all the time.
With a charged smart phone, Resistance is real!
(Well, until The Man presses a button in that van over there and disconnects the region from Skynet, as I saw happen several times when I was at Standing Rock... Or uses your location services to come roll you up... But I digress. Resist on!)
I disagree. Many people in the 85006 who can't work for LEGIT reasons are finding new satisfaction with life as part of The Resistance. I can't speak for the entire metro Phoenix area but in my zip....which I won't repeat again as you'all know it by now - there is a strong sense of ownership in working against the Orange One. To not work against him is to be guilty of quality of life reductions and quality of citizenship reductions and like most people in my zip code, I'm not OK with being quiet, looking the other way and being complicit in these reductions. Rob
Wouldn't it be nobler and more fulfilling to define yourself by what you're for rather than what you're against? Why make your identity derivative of someone else's, even in the negative sense?
This whole Trump delenda est thing will necessarily have a very limited life span. What happens when he's gone? Why try to cloak yourself in the glory of dead heroes by appropriating "the Resistance" rather than try to create a new legend from your own efforts?
I think Rogar had it right. There seems to be a sort of Pavlovian response to the very thought of him in some quarters. It's like Trump is the villain they've been yearning for suddenly made flesh.
I've got no particular love for the guy, but am willing to wait for him to insult some leader or use the wrong fork before I fly into a sputtering rage.
Hmmm.........I certainly haven't been yearning for this villain. And I think the majority of people in the U.S. were flabergasted when he showed up. Why the hell would anyone want this situation?
Yeah, I'll wait and see what happens. But wouldn't we be stupid to not use our past experience to go into the future with? Sure, I'm willing to overlook/forgive some things if people redeem themselves, but so far, I have no reason to be hopeful. He represents me. I think it's fair that some of us fear that Trump continues to be Trump and continues to represent many of us in ways we find totally objectionable. There's nothing wrong with that. But I'm sure you'll find something wrong with it.
Why try to cloak yourself in the glory of dead heroes by appropriating "the Resistance" rather than try to create a new legend from your own efforts?
http://i.imgur.com/oymWFZp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pZf6Szc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LD8j9au.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bZp9x5W.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bZp9x5W.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nCTSKXQ.jpg
Hmmm.........I certainly haven't been yearning for this villain. And I think the majority of people in the U.S. were flabergasted when he showed up. Why the hell would anyone want this situation?
Yeah, I'll wait and see what happens. But wouldn't we be stupid to not use our past experience to go into the future with? Sure, I'm willing to overlook/forgive some things if people redeem themselves, but so far, I have no reason to be hopeful. He represents me. I think it's fair that some of us fear that Trump continues to be Trump and continues to represent many of us in ways we find totally objectionable. There's nothing wrong with that. But I'm sure you'll find something wrong with it.
I think there's a difference between not being hopeful and announcing your delicious anticipation of all the outrages you expect him to commit.
Recently Trump appears to be having a little trouble just figuring out where he is.
"delicious anticipation"........those are your words. For me, it's more like "fear and embarrassment and disappointment, knowing how he has been up to now". I don't know where you get that those of us who find his behavior unacceptable have giddiness, hoping he will make his usual big mistakes.
He represents all of us.........and we have every right to expect more from him.
Recently Trump appears to be having a little trouble just figuring out where he is.
I was watching something online about showing various old interviews with Trump about political questions. He sounded much more with it than he is now. I think this job is sooooooo much more than he expected and it's getting really difficult for him to keep up.
I voted for a different candidate (not Sec. Clinton) but I do not understand any glee in watching an American president fail. I wish him only the best and success in keeping our nation safe.
I think Rogar had it right. There seems to be a sort of Pavlovian response to the very thought of him in some quarters. It's like Trump is the villain they've been yearning for suddenly made flesh.
I've got no particular love for the guy, but am willing to wait for him to insult some leader or use the wrong fork before I fly into a sputtering rage.
There have always been plenty of villains; we've really never had to yearn for them. Now we have a churlish authoritarian clod who surrounded himself with villains before deploying the wrecking ball in all directions. He's already insulted Angela Merkel and arm-wrestled Emmanuel Macron (not to mention taunting big swaths of Asia). It will be amusing to see what outlandish gaffes this trip produces.
Bae, it's true our resistance is not nearly as dangerous as others before it--and I hope it won't be. But that doesn't make it any less real. We can resist through the courts, by supporting candidates and causes, with the help of like-minded mayors and governors--as on the West Coast, and by encouraging the investigation of all the shady dealings (money laundering, election fraud) of this administration. And we can continue to make our voices heard in many different ways. I used to think our separation of powers and checks and balances would be enough to protect us from scoundrels and despots, but now I'm not so sure.
Bae, it's true our resistance is not nearly as dangerous as others before it--and I hope it won't be. But that doesn't make it any less real. We can resist through the courts, by supporting candidates and causes, with the help of like-minded mayors and governors--as on the West Coast, and by encouraging the investigation of all the shady dealings (money laundering, election fraud) of this administration. And we can continue to make our voices heard in many different ways.
That's "good citizenship", not "The Resistance".
That's "good citizenship", not "The Resistance".
Often it's the same thing.
Edmund Burke said "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
The denture thing was intriguing. There have always been people who said they could get radio transmissions through their fillings and they have been deemed crazy. Maybe they were not crazy after all. What was it about the dentures that allowed them to work as a radio?
Williamsmith
7-6-17, 6:21pm
I must point out that if Trump does not reign over a mighty catastrophe, odds are very good his detractors will be mired in self pity for another seven plus years. The real story is not Trump's perceived inadequacies, ignorance, inexperience, haughtiness, ill preparedness, naivety, or outright crudeness and lack of education.......it is the Democrats are in disarray, have no viable option to point to within their ranks and must resort to taking Trump down in the public square rather than beat him in the arena of ideas. And if you do not live in a big city or the west left coast........you are rather satisfied with how this outsider is performing. It really is payback for the treatment Trumpeters were given during the prior administration what with all the high brow snootiness and apologetic touring of the world. It was such a slam dunk victory for HILLARY that the shock of her loss has sent her supporters into classic early stages of grief.....denial and anger.
The denture thing was intriguing. There have always been people who said they could get radio transmissions through their fillings and they have been deemed crazy. Maybe they were not crazy after all. What was it about the dentures that allowed them to work as a radio?
Radio receivers are remarkably simple things - Allied prisoners made some very clever crystal receivers out of nothing much more than razor blades and pencil leads. In the receiver in that photo, the dentures themselves were modified to hold components of the radio - the dentures themselves had no special properties.
I must point out that if Trump does not reign over a mighty catastrophe, odds are very good his detractors will be mired in self pity for another seven plus years. The real story is not Trump's perceived inadequacies, ignorance, inexperience, haughtiness, ill preparedness, naivety, or outright crudeness and lack of education.......it is the Democrats are in disarray, have no viable option to point to within their ranks and must resort to taking Trump down in the public square rather than beat him in the arena of ideas. And if you do not live in a big city or the west left coast........you are rather satisfied with how this outsider is performing. It really is payback for the treatment Trumpeters were given during the prior administration what with all the high brow snootiness and apologetic touring of the world. It was such a slam dunk victory for HILLARY that the shock of her loss has sent her supporters into classic early stages of grief.....denial and anger.
I agree that "trump is a lying grifter completely out of his depth", regardless of how true it is, is not a winning strategy for the democrats. But do ideas really win elections? They certainly didn't this time around. All trump had to do was tell his supporters that he didn't think they were losers and that they should blame brown skinned foreigners for all their problems and make absurd, obviously impossible promises like cheaper better healthcare and a wall to keep out those awful brown people, which would be paid for by those same brown people, with absolutely no details. If those kind of ideas are what win elections then we deserve exactly what we got from this election and the world will be better off when he finally kills our status as most powerful nation in the world. My only prayer at this point is that nothing happens. I've not seen anything in his demeanor or actions so far to indicate to me that he will be capable of acting rationally or in our best interest if something awful happens like North Korea successfully sending an ICBM at North America or some terrorist successfully executes a major attack inside our borders.
... capable of acting rationally or in our best interest if something awful happens like North Korea successfully sending an ICBM at North America ....
I wonder what the "proper" response would even be in such a situation?
I read somewhere that Seattle is a likely target for L'il Kim's missiles. That's got me looking at mid-Willamette Valley real estate...:help:
I wonder what the "proper" response would even be in such a situation?
If George W Bush is any indication the proper response is to make up a story(ies) to justify attacking a random country. Personally I'm not too concerned about proper. I'll be happy with rational and in our best interest.
If you get into some fringe news, like statements from Newt Gingrich, N. Korea seems as likely to create an EMP attack as a traditional attack. More bang for the nuke for a rogue nation with limited resources. I don't know if this is within their near future technical abilities, but it makes some sense. It would take some sort of wild insanity to attack the U.S. I don't know what approach would be "proper", but the mostly likely i can think of would be turning N. Korea into a wasteland. Which would make a mighty strong deterrent.
As far as Trump getting trigger happy, I could see a preemptive strike after creating some public hysteria.
If you get into some fringe news, like statements from Newt Gingrich, N. Korea seems as likely to create an EMP attack as a traditional attack.
15 years ago when I first started as an insurance broker there were a bunch of insurance carriers that were worried enough about EMP attacks that a bunch of property policies of clients had EMP exclusions on them. I haven't been a broker for over 8 years now so I have no idea if that's still the case but I doubt it. Perhaps now they all have exclusions for child sex rings in pizza parlor basements.
Being burdened with having worked in the field, I'm not too terribly concerned about the dangers of EMP, as portrayed in the media or by our more histrionic politicians.
ToomuchStuff
7-7-17, 1:49am
I don't know if this is within their near future technical abilities,
It would take a nuclear warhead and a missle to get it into the atmosphere. Yes, within future abilities.
There would be some fried electronics, but the fear has been there for so long, with the cold war, a lot of systems were hardened, IMHO.
flowerseverywhere
7-7-17, 5:47am
I suspect there are many people who are in the middle. If Trump would just stop tweeting some of the positive things that have come out of his early presidency would be evident.
For instance, illegal entry into this country is down. It has never made sense to me why people who sneak in are given preference over people who do things legally and are waiting patiently in line.
Food stamp use is down. Illegal parents who were getting benefits for their children are fading away, and some states have re instituted the work rule for able bodied adults without minor dependents that was waived by Obama. The working taxpayers deserve to feel like benefits they are paying for are being used properly.
Sanctuary cities are coming under fire Laws are laws.
The real tragedy as I see it is having a republican house, senate and president yet no meaningful legislation is happening. Where is the tax reform that was supposed to simplify the tax code? What a potential saving that would be if most of the IRS was not needed to sort out our complicated tax code. Where is the replacement for Obamacare we heard about for seven plus years and certainly from the president who frequently talked about his plan that will be cheaper coverage, better coverage for more people? And the whole coal mine thing.
Most of what this president has done is reversible with the swipe of a pen. Executive orders only go so far and can be reversed.
I will I'll acknowledge that the OP's point is well taken. We are touring around Canada for several months and I have heard more Trump ribbing here than in the states. The image that is being projected, by the media and the President is not a good one. Many people have said they will not go to the states when he is in power, and several have said they were outright disgusted to see him leading the country.
But Rob and all better get used to it. The Republican Party is raising money and gearing up for 2018 and 2020. In order for Democrats to get back into power they are going to need to get very good candidates starting at local levels and work their way up the chain.
But Rob and all better get used to it. The Republican Party is raising money and gearing up for 2018 and 2020. In order for Democrats to get back into power they are going to need to get very good candidates starting at local levels and work their way up the chain.
It does seem that the Democrats have somewhat neglected the state and local levels for the last twenty years or so. Where they have maintained their traditional local power bases, there are some significant and visible issues. The New York transit system. Detroit's financial collapse. The chronic Illinois/Chicago mess. San Francisco's level of inequality driving tech bus vandalism. You can only distract so much from that by removing old Confederate monuments or touting your municipal climate policy or declaring yourself a sanctuary from immigration law.
Say what you will, the Republicans are benefiting from their work at the local level, which used to be the Democrats' real strength.
...
Food stamp use is down. Illegal parents who were getting benefits for their children are fading away, and some states have re instituted the work rule for able bodied adults without minor dependents that was waived by Obama. The working taxpayers deserve to feel like benefits they are paying for are being used properly.
Sanctuary cities are coming under fire Laws are laws.
....
Illegal immigration has been trending downward for years. Food stamp use is declining? Job growth has been trending upward for years. Or maybe people are just giving up and starving to death; Trump has nothing to do with it. Sanctuary cities coming under fire? Good luck with that--sanctuary cities are fighting back. And by all means, let's cut off food to the children of undocumented workers, without whom this country's economy would probably tank.
This taxpayer is sick of her money going for pointless wars and limitless greed. Trump's main accomplishment is making himself rich at our expense.
The real tragedy as I see it is having a republican house, senate and president yet no meaningful legislation is happening. Where is the tax reform that was supposed to simplify the tax code? What a potential saving that would be if most of the IRS was not needed to sort out our complicated tax code. Where is the replacement for Obamacare we heard about for seven plus years and certainly from the president who frequently talked about his plan that will be cheaper coverage, better coverage for more people? And the whole coal mine thing.
I think we're seeing a couple of things. First, a CEO is a dictator, not a president and the skill sets aren't particularly similar.
Second, Trump inadvertently called the Republican's bluff earlier this week (last week?) when he said that if they couldn't agree on a replacement he wanted the senate to just do repeal now and worry about replacement later. Since the senate has declined to take up his offer obviously those thousand votes to repeal when Obama was still president were just for show and had about as much seriousness as Trump's promises of better, cheaper healthcare, a beautiful wall, more dying fossil fuel jobs.
Sanctuary cities are coming under fire Laws are laws.
Please point me to the law that says local law enforcement has to assist with immigration issues.
Williamsmith
7-7-17, 10:17am
Please point me to the law that says local law enforcement has to assist with immigration issues.
This is the applicable law: Section 1373 of Title VIII of the United States Code. It requires local law enforcement to share immigration status with INS. The question isn't whether there is a law defining local jurisdiction responsibilities to the Federal immigration enforcement officials......it is whether the President has the authority to attach a punishment in the form of an executive order to withhold federal funding to local jurisdictions that refuse to allow their employees to provide the information required by the law. There is no penalty written into the law by Congress. Is it within the preview of the President constitutionally to hold federal funding for all manner of categories of grants including Medicare for failure to assist by providing information? Or is it up to Congress whose role was outlined strictly by the Constitution as that of determining the dispersal of federal funds collected? I could see Congress withholding federal grant money for law enforcement agencies that have a policy no to provide information to immigration but for the President to type out an executive order regarding withholding all funding ....seems a stretch to me.
Teacher Terry
7-7-17, 2:02pm
In our state single people can only get food stamps for 3 months. This is intended to help them until they can find work and 3 months is the time they give you. YOu also can qualify for economic aid of 200/month for 3 months. This helped many of our clients. Now that I am retired I am not sure if this has changed here or not. I sure hope not. Our country wastes billions on wars, helping other countries, etc yet we let our own people suffer. Some people truly lack empathy.
This is the applicable law: Section 1373 of Title VIII of the United States Code. It requires local law enforcement to share immigration status with INS.
Does Federal law require local law enforcement to *determine* immigration status though? Or to hold people on suspected immigration violations, at local expense, until ICE arrives? My county just passed one of those (silly-IMO) "sanctuary county" laws, and the text seems to address the unfunded-mandate portion of the problem, as well as reinforce that our local law enforcement doesn't inquire about immigration status or maintain records of such things unless they are connected with some other crime.
flowerseverywhere
7-7-17, 2:25pm
In our state single people can only get food stamps for 3 months. This is intended to help them until they can find work and 3 months is the time they give you. YOu also can qualify for economic aid of 200/month for 3 months. This helped many of our clients. Now that I am retired I am not sure if this has changed here or not. I sure hope not. Our country wastes billions on wars, helping other countries, etc yet we let our own people suffer. Some people truly lack empathy.
i don't lack empathy. Just have been trying to figure out why people are thrilled Trump won and think he is doing great.
flowerseverywhere
7-7-17, 2:29pm
And by all means, let's cut off food to the children of undocumented workers, without whom this country's economy would probably tank.
This taxpayer is sick of her money going for pointless wars and limitless greed. Trump's main accomplishment is making himself rich at our expense.
But that is not the way many Trump supporters see it.
iris lilies
7-7-17, 2:38pm
i don't lack empathy. Just have been trying to figure out why people are thrilled Trump won and think he is doing great.
The stock market is doing great.
I didnt vote for him and don't like him, but I think at those who are not recognizing positive economic news ushered in by Donald Trump are myoptic to the detriment of this country.
As a wag said today, "there is nothing that upsets progressives like real progress.."
Teacher Terry
7-7-17, 2:40pm
I don't know anyone that is thrilled. It sounded to me like you were listing his accomplishments like it was a good thing and actually it is all bad.
The stock market is doing great.
I didnt vote for him and don't like him, but I think at those who are not recognizing positive economic news ushered in by Donald Trump are myoptic to the detriment of this country.
As a wag said today, "there is nothing that upsets progressives like real progress.."
In another thread, Rob made an interesting comment about the market:
"About your ending Trump quote, as seen from the realities of life in the 85006: It is true the stock market has been doing well, VERY WELL in fact, of late. Now for the reality of the 85006: The stock market truly no longer trades on economic fundamentals and these high valuations are way above historical averages and are begging for a correction, especially since as I said the market today is not trading on economic fundamentals but instead speculation."
I have been wondering the same thing, will this "Trump market" turn? Are you at all concerned about that, IL? I don't know what to think, myself.
iris lilies
7-7-17, 2:58pm
In another thread, Rob made an interesting comment about the market:
"About your ending Trump quote, as seen from the realities of life in the 85006: It is true the stock market has been doing well, VERY WELL in fact, of late. Now for the reality of the 85006: The stock market truly no longer trades on economic fundamentals and these high valuations are way above historical averages and are begging for a correction, especially since as I said the market today is not trading on economic fundamentals but instead speculation."
I have been wondering the same thing, will this "Trump market" turn? Are you at all concerned about that, IL? I don't know what to think, myself.
Oh hell yeah, the market is inflated. Lets all enjoy the ride while we are feeling rich, ok? Of course it will come down.
Didnt it drop anout 10% a few weeks ago and news sources like the NYT could barely contain their glee? But I was a little relieved, I like it to come down and be a bit more stable over several years.
but whatever, it is going to do what it is going to do.
iris lilies
7-7-17, 2:59pm
I don't know anyone that is thrilled. It sounded to me like you were listing his accomplishments like it was a good thing and actually it is all bad.
"It" isnt really all bad.
Teacher Terry
7-7-17, 3:25pm
IL: it is not all bad if you have lots of $ and don't care what happens to other people. Children, elderly, disabled are the ones that will be hurt the most by many policies they are trying to push through. Like Kelly Conway said: those lazy people should get jobs with health insurance. I bet the job market is big for old people with dementia and kids.
iris lilies
7-7-17, 4:18pm
IL: it is not all bad if you have lots of $ and don't care what happens to other people. Children, elderly, disabled are the ones that will be hurt the most by many policies they are trying to push through. Like Kelly Conway said: those lazy people should get jobs with health insurance. I bet the job market is big for old people with dementia and kids.
Yes! And people will die!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWhbUUE4ko
Yes! And people will die!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWhbUUE4ko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUCILq6J2yU
"And then releasing the vultures".
Yes! And people will die!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWhbUUE4ko
I guess now we know why there aren't any funny republican comedians. I doubt most people find it funny to think about people dying because rich people needed a tax cut. Although now that I think about it, Reagan's press secretary thought people dying was something to make jokes about. But since they were just gay men I guess it was ok.
I guess now we know why there aren't any funny republican comedians. I doubt most people find it funny to think about people dying because rich people needed a tax cut. Although now that I think about it, Reagan's press secretary thought people dying was something to make jokes about. But since they were just gay men I guess it was ok.
i thought it was great.
i thought it was great.
It's nice to know that you think it would be funny if trump's wealthcare bill passes and my friend Amy's breast cancer reoccurs that she would be forced to either die or go bankrupt paying entirely out of pocket for treatment for a pre-existing condition.
I bet you and paul ryan have a blast together at kegger parties.
Williamsmith
7-7-17, 10:44pm
Does Federal law require local law enforcement to *determine* immigration status though? Or to hold people on suspected immigration violations, at local expense, until ICE arrives? My county just passed one of those (silly-IMO) "sanctuary county" laws, and the text seems to address the unfunded-mandate portion of the problem, as well as reinforce that our local law enforcement doesn't inquire about immigration status or maintain records of such things unless they are connected with some other crime.
I have to wonder if your local officials take their role of protecting public safety seriously or if they are more interested in making a social justice statement at the cost of victimizing those they took an oath to serve.
They obviously don't realize the security threat caused by such policy and the exposure of taxpayers to the expense of dealing with repeat offenders of the criminal alien kind. To say nothing of the risk of monetary settlements for the victimization of citizens killed, injured or otherwise fallen prey to an illegal who was recently in local police presence and failure to determine status when reasonable suspicion existed or worse....ignored at the order of officials information that would lead a trained officer to learn the status through one simple query of NCIC.
By the way, that simple query is routinely made on minor traffic infractions. As part of that query....the Immigration Violator File identifies criminal aliens whom immigration authorities have deported and aliens with outstanding warrants of removal.
Local and State Law Enforcement are the eyes of ICE and force multipliers. Without them....the Mission of INS cannot be fulfilled. The Supreme Court has upheld the cooperative nature of immigration enforcement and supports the Federal Right to preempt local policy on this.
It is both financially wreckless and ethically indefensible to foster sanctuary policy. The fact is, law enforcement would have to not only turn a blind eye.....they would actually have to intentionally neglect to do their job in order to obey sanctuary policies that forbid providing information or detaining for 48 hrs on emergency commitment.
On the other hand, california experienced a 10% drop in hit and run accidents after we started allowing undocumented people to get driver's licenses. Having a whole group of people terrified of interacting with law enforcement might not be the best in terms of them doing their jobs of keeping people safe.
I have to wonder if your local officials take their role of protecting public safety seriously or if they are more interested in making a social justice statement at the cost of victimizing those they took an oath to serve.
Ya think?
Especially as this county is *right on the border*, and has historically been a major smuggling route for goods and people.
When ICE set up their checkpoints at the ferry landing on the mainland a few years ago, so they checked every single person here travelling "to the USA" from here, they caught a *lot* of people with outstanding warrants who had figured this was a good place to hide. They also irritated a lot of law-abiding citizens who were trying to go about their daily business travelling entirely within the US on state highway facilities...
It's nice to know that you think it would be funny if trump's wealthcare bill passes and my friend Amy's breast cancer reoccurs that she would be forced to either die or go bankrupt paying entirely out of pocket for treatment for a pre-existing condition.
I bet you and paul ryan have a blast together at kegger parties.
my wife had breast cancer. I just plan to keep paying the health insurance premiums. or I'll pay out of pocket.
I don't remember people dieing in the streets 8 years ago.
Several studies have shown that among people who lose their health insurance roughly 1 in 1,000 die every year d to lack of healthcare. You can do the math for what that means if 24 million people lose their insurance.
I'm glad you can afford to pay out of pocket if pre-existing condition exclusions come back. As a freelance journalist I doubt that my friend has that option.
I don't remember people dieing in the streets 8 years ago.
Have you looked? Poor people dying doesn't make the news.
I have friends who have had to go bankrupt because they couldn't afford their medical bills. My BIL was admitted to the hospital with extremely high blood pressure (220/120). If he didn't have Obamacare he wouldn't have been able to afford the treatment.
I'm sure there are a million stories.
On the topic of entitlements, here's an article that was posted on CNN today (http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/07/opinions/ivanka-trump-paid-family-leave-opinion-coontz/index.html) about First Daughter speaking up for paid family leave
I heartily endorse Ivanka Trump's argument that the real test of an entitlement program is whether it is an investment in the security and prosperity of all Americans. From my point of view, that is a far better use of resources than adding to the nest eggs of the children of the super-rich, who are already quite entitled enough.
Several studies have shown that among people who lose their health insurance roughly 1 in 1,000 die every year d to lack of healthcare. You can do the math for what that means if 24 million people lose their insurance.
I'm glad you can afford to pay out of pocket if pre-existing condition exclusions come back. As a freelance journalist I doubt that my friend has that option.
Everyone makes choices. I never expected others to provide for me, so worked and saved to take care of myself and family. I would have much prefered to be a golf pro or porn star, but I wouldn't have been able to pay the bills.
How many of that 24 million number are people that chose not to have healthcare? How many were going to die soon anyway? Nobody lives forever. How many choose to pay for cell phones, beer and weekends off instead of working and saving?
The rich have always had a quirky sense of humor--witness "dead peasant insurance." Hahaha, oh rolling on the floor with laughter. So funny.
The mass of us are just "peasants" and "useless eaters" to them.
Have you looked? Poor people dying doesn't make the news.
I have friends who have had to go bankrupt because they couldn't afford their medical bills. My BIL was admitted to the hospital with extremely high blood pressure (220/120). If he didn't have Obamacare he wouldn't have been able to afford the treatment.
I'm sure there are a million stories.
On the topic of entitlements, here's an article that was posted on CNN today (http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/07/opinions/ivanka-trump-paid-family-leave-opinion-coontz/index.html) about First Daughter speaking up for paid family leave
I heartily endorse Ivanka Trump's argument that the real test of an entitlement program is whether it is an investment in the security and prosperity of all Americans. From my point of view, that is a far better use of resources than adding to the nest eggs of the children of the super-rich, who are already quite entitled enough.
according to this article, the top eight reasons for high blood pressure are lifestyle choices. I'm sure many of the million stories are the same.
So if you have high blood pressure, and you--in part--caused it, you should just die. Got it.
One, and I think arguably the most important, reason for high blood pressure is stress. And poor people have that in spades.
Some minorities are prone to HBP, possibly exacerbated by the afore-mentioned stress.
When did we sink to the point that finger-pointing and judging replaced actual health care? Not a world I'm happy to live in.
Everyone makes choices. I never expected others to provide for me, so worked and saved to take care of myself and family. I would have much prefered to be a golf pro or porn star, but I wouldn't have been able to pay the bills.
So one of my friends who went bankrupt with a heart attack actually is a golf pro, a teaching pro. Gee, if ALL the golf pros decided to get a REAL job and stop being 50-hour-a-week-working deadbeats, who the heck would be around to teach all the rich people how to play?
ETA, as far as your accusing my BIL of not being deserving of healthcare because he probably did it on himself, he had this emergency AFTER spending a year of his life watching his diet, adopting a running program, and losing 60 lbs. But he *is* completely stressed out about losing his home. Let's make him feel even worse and take away his ability to deal with a huge, expensive, unanticipated medical event, so that when he sells his home and get a small windfall, he can just pass that along to the hospital.
Everyone makes choices. I never expected others to provide for me, so worked and saved to take care of myself and family. I would have much prefered to be a golf pro or porn star, but I wouldn't have been able to pay the bills.
How many of that 24 million number are people that chose not to have healthcare? How many were going to die soon anyway? Nobody lives forever. How many choose to pay for cell phones, beer and weekends off instead of working and saving?
It'll be sure and castigate my friend for choosing to get breast cancer the next time I talk to her.
Everyone makes choices. I never expected others to provide for me, so worked and saved to take care of myself and family.
I bet this guy has said the same thing plenty of times.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/08/24/less_government_more_freedom_t_shirt_firefighters_ thanked_washington_state.html
Yet there he is gratefully thanking the government employees who are paid by taxpayers subsidizing his decision to live in a fire zone.
Everyone makes choices. I never expected others to provide for me, so worked and saved to take care of myself and family. I would have much prefered to be a golf pro or porn star, but I wouldn't have been able to pay the bills.
How many of that 24 million number are people that chose not to have healthcare? How many were going to die soon anyway? Nobody lives forever. How many choose to pay for cell phones, beer and weekends off instead of working and saving?
I'm troubled by this idea that those who will die without adequate access to healthcare are somehow improvident and lazy. When I had my sudden, life-threatening illness, I was working three jobs and my husband was working two jobs.
Yes, I did make a lifestyle choice and leave my first husband, who had threatened to kill his first ex-wife. He was mentally unstable, but he was pulling in four hundred thousand dollars a year and owned his own private plane. The bills were paid while we were there--but when we left, he wasn't going to buy health insurance for the children, even though he was court ordered to do so. Dealing with him over the years of the divorce definitely raised my blood pressure, especially when he stalked me and I had to get a protective order.
The lifestyle choice that resulted in the life-threatening illness? Uh, wrong grandparent with family history of lung disease? Father who smoked three packs of day when I was growing up, and now has emphysema, and by the way, I am expected to use my resources to care for him, as well?
I think this kind of social Calvinism will lead either to universal health care or assisted/encouraged suicide program for Americans. And my money is on the latter.
iris lilies
7-8-17, 11:28am
Each time the government makes major policy like the ACA, there are winners and there are losers. A lot of people considered themselves losers when the ACA went into effect because they actually lost something--a service, a good price, etc. And a LOT of people didnt even sign up for ACA health insurance even though IT WAS THE LAW!!! Why is that if the ACA is such a good thing? I don't u derstand, hmmm.
Just shows how THE LAW works as a stick, not so good.
Personally, we find that the ACA/public exchange policy we have works fine in that the premiums are half the cost of our COBRA policy. But we havent really tested the health care services it covers, so who really knows if it is adequate in that regard.
The point of the "People will die" video is to suggest that perhaps reason as well as empathy should guide public policy. I see no reason or objectivity in Senator Warren's declarations from the podium that PEOPLE WILL DIE!!! Is perfect fodder for parody.
Teacher Terry
7-8-17, 11:32am
Many illnesses run in families. If you get hit by a bus when you are young and are paralyzed from your neck down you are not going to have the resources to provide for your family. Some of you need to pull your head out of your ass and realize that many people work hard and still have horribly bad things happen to them that is beyond their control. Many jobs now don't even come with health insurance. I have seen people go bankrupt even with medical insurance if they have cancer due to inability to work, large deductibles, co-pays, etc. Especially if the cancer keeps coming back. I had friends where her insurance came back 8x's and then he got cancer. Eventually they lost a paid for home because they took $ out of it to pay for medical expenses and then other expenses when too sick to work. They had health insurance. She first wqas unable to work due to being too sick. She loved to work so went back as soon as she was well. Unfortunately, her brain no longer worked right and after 2 years was fired. The doctors thought she had chemo brain but eventually after man years realized she had early onset alzheimer's. These people did everything right yet died broke. He sold everything they had before dying to pay all creditors. I eventually had to apply for Medicaid to pay for her nursing home care because her monthly pension and SS did not pay the whole bill. So this couple did everything right but it did not matter.
ApatheticNoMore
7-8-17, 11:41am
I'm troubled by this idea that those who will die without adequate access to healthcare are somehow improvident and lazy.
EVEN IF they were it hardly seems a Death Penalty worthy crime, not when so much else that is far worse goes unpunished. At best you can say such things are anti-social (not that we really need as much work as is done but it's fair enough to want widespread participation in what work is necessary) but a lot of other things are MUCH MORE anti-social (most anything that pollutes our shared environment surely is) and yet people get rich off that.
I can't say I would know what it is like to date (never even mind marry) someone earning 400k as I doubt I've ever dated anyone making 6 figures period. But he sounds like a really horrible person, so good you got away.
The lifestyle choice that resulted in the life-threatening illness? Uh, wrong grandparent with family history of lung disease? Father who smoked three packs of day when I was growing up, and now has emphysema, and by the way, I am expected to use my resources to care for him, as well?
chose wrong parents obviously.
---
as for those who want to be porn stars, noone stopped them from getting into that career if they really think it is all that, of course that is assuming they have the qualifications. :laff:
iris lilies
7-8-17, 11:47am
Also, frankly, it doesnt help my empathy to hear ad nauseum how one member of our group here despises the taxpayers of the U.S.A. for their lack of "human dignity" and yet sucked down a good quarter of a million $ in hospital care in recent years with no charge to him.
While I don't expect groveling thanks, I do expect simple recognition that he was taken care of. But his drumbeat of "not good enough, never good enough, despicable" leads me to think that there are a lot of people out there with unrealistic expectations of how much things cost and how much the taxpayer is willing to give. This attitude is extremely wearing.
This topic really burns me, and points out the flaws in the whole system. A system where you have a choice of wearing the golden handcuffs and get employer-based healthcare, or starting a business and being lucky enough to make the money to pay the exorbitant premiums on your own. These two choices demand a Plan C. In my mind that Plan C is one which provides an equal safety net to ALL people regardless of source of employment. The employer-based insurance system is a vestige of the end of 19th century/beginning of the Industrial Age when insurance was something brand new and it gave manufacturers a good perk for their employees. But it makes no sense now in an economy where those very jobs in manufacturing are dwindling fast, and where technology and lack of transparency in healthcare has driven costs exponentially higher.
There are flaws in the ACA, but there are also serious flaws in the foundation of the healthcare system, which poorer or unluckier people shouldn't have to pay for. We are creative and innovative people--we can come up with something better.
Yes, if you work for a company and reap their benefits, that's great, but it doesn't make you better or more deserving of a healthy life.
iris lilies
7-8-17, 11:59am
Many illnesses run in families. If you get hit by a bus when you are young and are paralyzed from your neck down you are not going to have the resources to provide for your family. Some of you need to pull your head out of your ass and realize that many people work hard and still have horribly bad things happen to them that is beyond their control. Many jobs now don't even come with health insurance. I have seen people go bankrupt even with medical insurance if they have cancer due to inability to work, large deductibles, co-pays, etc. Especially if the cancer keeps coming back. I had friends where her insurance came back 8x's and then he got cancer. Eventually they lost a paid for home because they took $ out of it to pay for medical expenses and then other expenses when too sick to work. They had health insurance. She first wqas unable to work due to being too sick. She loved to work so went back as soon as she was well. Unfortunately, her brain no longer worked right and after 2 years was fired. The doctors thought she had chemo brain but eventually after man years realized she had early onset alzheimer's. These people did everything right yet died broke. He sold everything they had before dying to pay all creditors. I eventually had to apply for Medicaid to pay for her nursing home care because her monthly pension and SS did not pay the whole bill. So this couple did everything right but it did not matter.
This is a lot of story, but I am not sure it relays the point you think you are making.
Isnt the main point: your friends were ill, your friends were taken care of? The end.
For more detail, they spent their own momey on their own care services before the taxpayers kicked in to take care of them.
if we all expect to blow our money on beer, weed, fast cars and fast women OR ELSE save it up for our legacy death gift, using none of it on our own health care, then taxes will have to be raised on everybody, not just The Rich. That level of support isnt built into the current system. Teresa May looked across the pond, at us, and suggested something similar in the U.K. And she was shouted right down. Once Nanny G. gives out a big soft blanket gift, it is dastardly jard to take it back. Thats what the Republicans in Congress and finding out. There are many enemies if the ACA but everyone wants to keep their gift piece and chuck the rest.
iris lilies
7-8-17, 12:25pm
This topic really burns me, and points out the flaws in the whole system. A system where you have a choice of wearing the golden handcuffs and get employer-based healthcare, or starting a business and being lucky enough to make the money to pay the exorbitant premiums on your own. These two choices demand a Plan C. In my mind that Plan C is one which provides an equal safety net to ALL people regardless of source of employment. The employer-based insurance system is a vestige of the end of 19th century/beginning of the Industrial Age when insurance was something brand new and it gave manufacturers a good perk for their employees. But it makes no sense now in an economy where those very jobs in manufacturing are dwindling fast, and where technology and lack of transparency in healthcare has driven costs exponentially higher.
There are flaws in the ACA, but there are also serious flaws in the foundation of the healthcare system. We are creative and innovative people--we can come up with something better.
Yes, if you work for a company and reap their benefits, that's great, but it doesn't make you better or more deserving of a healthy life.
First of all, working for a company that picks up the cost of "exorbatant premiums" is just part of negotiated compensation. Either you, the employee, eats the $10,000 annual premium per person or the company eats it, its not magic accounting. I wouldnt term that simple computation of compensation " golden handcuffs."
The "handcuff" part comes in for pre-existing conditions, in a work encirnment where health screening is not required to get health insurance. So yeah, people with pre existing conditions may be stuck in that corporate role for the sake of their healt insurance. That is not an enviable position. But it IS the reality of life in these United States.
I actually would like to have a serious conversation about "pre existing conditions" because I have questions, but I have learned this is not the place for that, I would be assured almost immediately of the "people will DIE!" type of rhetoric. Sigh.
Anyway, in the general, I agree with you that our health system could be changed, and possibly for the better. But because all change agents dont talk abput the effect on the bottom li e of the U.S. budget, I am skeptical that we can afford their desired changes.
I wouldnt term that simple computation of compensation " golden handcuffs."
I've always wondered why Republicans aren't more in favor of a non-employer-based single-payer system, because I truly believe a lot more people would start small businesses if they weren't glued to their jobs because it's the only way they can afford healthcare. Sure, a lot of people also just like the steady paycheck, but I know other people who feel tied to their jobs because of the healthcare benefits--especially if they have families.
So if you have high blood pressure, and you--in part--caused it, you should just die. Got it.
One, and I think arguably the most important, reason for high blood pressure is stress. And poor people have that in spades.
Some minorities are prone to HBP, possibly exacerbated by the afore-mentioned stress.
When did we sink to the point that finger-pointing and judging replaced actual health care? Not a world I'm happy to live in.
you are more than welcome to give them as much of your money as you wish.
Health care is a service. You should pay for that service.
I would joyfully pay more taxes to provide basic health care for everyone. (Of course, that's a pretty hollow statement now that I pay much less in taxes than I used to--but I would have joyfully paid then, too.) We could cut the defense budget to make that happen. Haha. But seriously, if we got the (expletive deleted) insurance companies out of the mix, went back to not-for-profit health care, arm-wrestled greedy Pharma CEOs to bring drug costs down (and surely we could cut drug costs in a major way by just saying no to the mostly useless and harmful potions that make up the bulk of pharmaceuticals fouling our waterways), used expensive tests judiciously, and took a more practical and less profit-driven approach to health care, we could certainly make it happen.
(Geez--run-on sentence, much? I think that's a record.)
you are more than welcome to give them as much of your money as you wish.
Health care is a service. You should pay for that service.
Before profits and greed got in the way, most people could and did pay for medical services. I'm old enough to remember those times.
Before profits and greed got in the way, most people could and did pay for medical services. I'm old enough to remember those times.
like colleges, it was before the government got involved.
I've always wondered why Republicans aren't more in favor of a non-employer-based single-payer system,...
As a lapsed Republican, and a lapsed employer, I've always wondered why the heck people want employers involved in their healthcare, or their health insurance. They don't (or typically didn't) ask that the employer provide their food, shelter, transportation, energy, or most of the other essentials of modern life. (I understand historically how we ended up in this place, it just seems absurd.)
When I budgeted for a new employee, I budgeted a certain total amount for the position. I wasn't providing health benefits out of magic money, it was money that otherwise would have gone into salary. In fact, I issued every employee a statement of benefits with their paychecks, breaking down the dollar cost of all the "free" benefits they were receiving.
On the "people are going to die" front - bad news for y'all: everyone's going to die, sooner or later.
like colleges, it was before the government got involved.
If you'd ever been in a back room of a focus group to find out how much families would be willing to sacrifice for 3 months of their loved ones lives (could we charge $10k a treatment? Would they take out a second mortgage? Let's do a cost analysis on the # of people who would be willing to pay $14k a treatment vs $10k), you'd know you can't just pin it all on the government.
If you'd ever been in a back room of a focus group to find out how much families would be willing to sacrifice for 3 months of their loved ones lives (could we charge $10k a treatment? Would they take out a second mortgage? Let's do a cost analysis on the # of people who would be willing to pay $14k a treatment vs $10k), you'd know you can't just pin it all on the government.
If the families wanted to pay, that is fine. But I read somewhere that the majority of healthcare cost were from the final few months. Maybe we need to accept that we can't afford to keep everyone alive for that last month or two.
Medical bills are the number one cause for American families to declare bankruptcy. Here's an article about this:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2014/02/18/medical-bankruptcies-are-still-problem-here-what-to-expect.html
Here is a relevant quote:
But medical bankruptcy doesn’t just happen to the uninsured. In fact, research shows that many people who file for bankruptcy due to exorbitant medical costs have existing health insurance.
“It’s not just the medical bills it’s really everything around the bills that insurance won’t cover,” says Ethan Austin, co-founder of Internet-based fundraising service GiveForward. He says 78% of people that file for medical bankruptcy had insurance.
Also, frankly, it doesnt help my empathy to hear ad nauseum how one member of our group here despises the taxpayers of the U.S.A. for their lack of "human dignity" and yet sucked down a good quarter of a million $ in hospital care in recent years with no charge to him.
While I don't expect groveling thanks, I do expect simple recognition that he was taken care of. But his drumbeat of "not good enough, never good enough, despicable" leads me to think that there are a lot of people out there with unrealistic expectations of how much things cost and how much the taxpayer is willing to give. This attitude is extremely wearing.
To be fair, I believe he was willing to put in a few hours at his local charity to give back. If he put in 8 hrs a week for this at $15 an hour, he would be all square after 40yrs.
Medical bills are the number one cause for American families to declare bankruptcy. Here's an article about this:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2014/02/18/medical-bankruptcies-are-still-problem-here-what-to-expect.html
Here is a relevant quote:
But medical bankruptcy doesn’t just happen to the uninsured. In fact, research shows that many people who file for bankruptcy due to exorbitant medical costs have existing health insurance.
“It’s not just the medical bills it’s really everything around the bills that insurance won’t cover,” says Ethan Austin, co-founder of Internet-based fundraising service GiveForward. He says 78% of people that file for medical bankruptcy had insurance.
How many people have an emergency Fund? Wasn't there a study that said even the poor spend 40% of their money on luxury items.
How many people have an emergency Fund? Wasn't there a study that said even the poor spend 40% of their money on luxury items.
I am not familiar with that study-- can you remember when you saw that, so we can look for a link?
Here's an article from 2016 about emergency funds:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/21/66-million-americans-have-no-emergency-savings.html
It's focused on a 3 months fund, that could cover 3 months. They talk about percentages of people who have saved that much-- but of course, if you get hit with a life threatening illness, 3 months savings is going to go fast, and you have lost wages, lost abilities, lost future income, along with the medical bills.
Also, frankly, it doesnt help my empathy to hear ad nauseum how one member of our group here despises the taxpayers of the U.S.A. for their lack of "human dignity" and yet sucked down a good quarter of a million $ in hospital care in recent years with no charge to him.
While I don't expect groveling thanks, I do expect simple recognition that he was taken care of. But his drumbeat of "not good enough, never good enough, despicable" leads me to think that there are a lot of people out there with unrealistic expectations of how much things cost and how much the taxpayer is willing to give. This attitude is extremely wearing.
First, I expect that quarter of a million figure was wildly inflated on paper, but still--how the hell do medical "care" providers get off charging such exorbitant amounts? I'd love to see an accounting of actual costs, minus profit margins, kickbacks, and padding. The one time I had an operation, some forty years ago, I was charged $70 for a light used in the surgical theater. Really? But back then, I could have easily paid for the whole thing. Not any more.
If the families wanted to pay, that is fine. But I read somewhere that the majority of healthcare cost were from the final few months. Maybe we need to accept that we can't afford to keep everyone alive for that last month or two.
My father-in-law passed away last month, in his 90s. He had quite good insurance. He had terminal cancer, and was in good shape when he passed away. He decided to go out while still in possession of some dignity and intellect, and so out out strength of will simply stopped eating and drinking to precipitate the end. I talked with him quite a lot over this decision. If he had engaged in heroic treatments, he would have lived another 6-12 months likely. One of the factors, though not the main one, was when he saw how much his final months were going to cost, even with his insurance.
He was frugal to a fault. He had accumulated a significant estate over the years, though his only employment throughout his life was as a college professor. He left the bulk of his estate to a research institution he founded, an organization that meant a great deal to him, and when he saw that he'd burn through a huge pile of assets during his last months on Earth, he thought he'd rather preserve the capital for them, than "waste" it on himself.
My mother-in-law passed away the previous year, and her decision and actions were quite similar.
I don't know that I disagree with their actions. If you are elderly, the last months of your life can be very very expensive. Both parents were in hospice care, but the expenses are still heroic. And if the patient wishes treatment instead, I imagine the costs are even more special - the dose of the cutting-edge cancer medication that they were arranging for my father-in-law was going to be > $20k. (And it would be easy to shriek "Greed! Profits!", but I simply have no foundation to analyze the cost situation for that medication.)
How many people have an emergency Fund? Wasn't there a study that said even the poor spend 40% of their money on luxury items.
With all due respect, dmc, do you know how hard it is for someone making subsistence wages to build up an emergency fund that will cover a heart attack? How do they cover that, and also save for a house? For their children't education? Let's take me for example, in 1995. I earned 28k, and I was the breadwinner, essentially. My net pay twice a month was $1008. I had $27.74 taken out for federal tax, $51.82 for SS, $12.12 for Medicare, $12.58 for NJ state income tax, and $11.34 for SDI. I also "chose" to have $172.22 deducted for my family health plan, $2.65 for LTD, 5.51 for STD, and I parted with $20.16 for my 401k. That left me with a net of 691.93, or $1383.86/mo. Out of that, I had to pay rent. I had to buy food. My husband's income was sporadic, so we couldn't count on it.
First of all, as you can see, there's no way I could have found 40% of that pay to blow on stuff. And I'd really like to see the source for the statistic you quoted. Do you know how hard it is to even save a couple of hundred bucks when you're living like this? And how many couple of hundred bucks a month does it take to pay for a heart attack? 10 years worth.
I am not familiar with that study-- can you remember when you saw that, so we can look for a link?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/low-income-families-spend-40-of-their-money-on-luxuries-2017-06-28?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo
I don't know that I disagree with their actions. If you are elderly, the last months of your life can be very very expensive. Both parents were in hospice care, but the expenses are still heroic. And if the patient wishes treatment instead, I imagine the costs are even more special - the dose of the cutting-edge cancer medication that they were arranging for my father-in-law was going to be > $20k. (And it would be easy to shriek "Greed! Profits!", but I simply have no foundation to analyze the cost situation for that medication.)
My mother-in-law died in Vermont, on the last day of our annual family vacation, at Bennington Hospital. We had to make a decision to either let her go, or put her through surgery. It was interesting because it was a Friday night, and the hospital was what you would imagine for a small VT hospital, and there was only one surgeon there, a doctor who was well on in years himself. He gently counseled us on the value of sparing my MIL the surgery, and to discern whether it should be done just because it's available and MIGHT give her a few months, or whether it's her time to go. We decided to let her go and she died the next day.
I've always wondered what if we had been in New Jersey and had taken her to one of the big academic teaching hospitals in the area? Would they have pushed for surgery? Would the dialogue have been different? Would we have made a different decision?
I think we made the right one. She was frugal to a fault, too.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/low-income-families-spend-40-of-their-money-on-luxuries-2017-06-28?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo
Thanks!
iris lilies
7-8-17, 1:41pm
First, I expect that quarter of a million figure was wildly inflated on paper, but still--how the hell do medical "care" providers get off charging such exorbitant amounts? I'd love to see an accounting of actual costs, minus profit margins, kickbacks, and padding. The one time I had an operation, some forty years ago, I was charged $70 for a light used in the surgical theater. Really? But back then, I could have easily paid for the whole thing. Not any more.
yes, my friend who pays cash for extensive medical treatments Including cancer treatment, negotiated her $240,000 hospital bill down to $75,000 cash payment. That was the amount for two surgeries in a ten day hospital stay when she was hit by a car. But she is not the norm by any means.
My mother-in-law died in Vermont, on the last day of our annual family vacation, at Bennington Hospital. We had to make a decision to either let her go, or put her through surgery. It was interesting because it was a Friday night, and the hospital was what you would imagine for a small VT hospital, and there was only one surgeon there, a doctor who was well on in years himself. He gently counseled us on the value of sparing my MIL the surgery, and to discern whether it should be done just because it's available and MIGHT give her a few months, or whether it's her time to go. We decided to let her go and she died the next day.
I've always wondered what if we had been in New Jersey and had taken her to one of the big academic teaching hospitals in the area? Would they have pushed for surgery? Would the dialogue have been different? Would we have made a different decision?
I think we made the right one.
What an interesting story. I think you are quite right, it probably would have been different in NJ, and not for the better.
Teacher Terry
7-8-17, 1:45pm
Some wealthy people do not care about others. Until his family experiences real tragedy he will never understand or care about the plight of others. You can't make someone have a conscience or have empathy. Bae, I have had family members die from cancer with hospice at home and it was not expensive because they were not seeking treatment. Yes there was some expense for the home health aid to bathe them twice/week and a nurse a few times week also. I think both your MIL and FIL saved themselves a lot of suffering by going early as it is very painful to die of cancer. I have seen it happen too many times. IL: yes some pre-existing conditions are caused by lifestyle but many are caused by genes. Everyone on my Mom's side of family get HBP at about age 31. Despite healthy living, good diets, regular exercise they still all get it. One of my sons who is very healthy, hikes all the time etc got it at 31. I got it at 50 despite not being overweight and walking 6 miles a day. All my sibs have it too. Everyone on my Mom's side of the family has died of cancer. If we are going to start judging others by lifestyle then we also will have to decide who is worthy and who is not. Yes Rob should feel grateful for his HI paying his bills. If we had single payer he would never have to worry about it. We spend a small fortune on defense and helping other countries instead of our own people. We could easily fund HI with that $. IL: my friend's story was to illustrate that eventually you run out of $ for healthcare. The poor man worked until a year before he died. He worked when incredibly sick at age 66 trying to keep the paycheck rolling in. No one should have to do that.
Teacher Terry
7-8-17, 1:46pm
Catherine, you made the right decision.
Okay, having looked at the link, and it's an interesting story, for sure, here is quote:
"People who make the most money spend the biggest chunk of their incomes on luxury goods, but even the poorest households spend a significant amount on luxuries, according to an analysis released The wealthiest families (the top fifth of earners) spend around 65% of their incomes on luxury goods and 35% on necessities, according to the study, which looked at spending habits between 1984 and 2014. Middle-income households weren’t far behind: They spend 50% on luxuries and 50% on necessities.
Even the lowest-income families (the bottom fifth of earners) spend 40% on luxuries and 60% on necessities, according to the study’s author, Torsten Slok, chief international economist for Deutsche Bank Securities."
But I am very confused by what follows;
"It’s worth noting that by the specialized nomenclature of the dismal science, even eating at McDonald’s is a luxury — that is, we do it more as our incomes rise — while smoking and lottery-ticket buying are categorized as necessities. For its part, the Deutsche Bank report explicitly defined luxuries as goods or services consumed in greater proportions as a person’s income increases and necessities as those goods or services that make up a smaller proportion of spending as a person’s income increases."
The way that is written, lottery tickets and smoking are necessities--which does not make sense. It would follow if you made 10,000 a year, McDonald's would take up more of your money than if you made 100,000?
Teacher Terry
7-8-17, 1:49pm
Thanks DMC for pointing out that eating is a luxury whereas smoking and lottery tickets are necessities. Total garbage study!thumbsup!
Those are not DMC's categories, they were the categories of Deutschebank. It was how DB defined luxuries that I was questioning, not something DMC asserted.
DMC is wealthy and could give a shit about anyone else.
That seems to be a personal attack, and outside the forum guidelines.
Bae, I have had family members die from cancer with hospice at home and it was not expensive because they were not seeking treatment.
I guess I'm lying then, since I helped both of them set up and manage their hospice and care situations, and was there helping care for them, and saw the bills with my own lying eyes, and had to manage both of their estates.
(And boy, my lying eyes saw some serious predatory practices in the elder care/home health care industry....)
Personally, I would prefer a reasonably-priced fee for service system with deductibles assigned on a sliding scale. I would prefer to deal directly with my doctor, without interference. (Actually, I would prefer to stay healthy enough to avoid the whole matter.)
iris lilies
7-8-17, 2:20pm
That seems to be a personal attack, and outside the forum guidelines.
)
" couldnt give a shit" it is pretty close to a personal attack, close enough for TT to consider editing it, especially since it isnt truthful or factual. Dmc IS kinda wealthy, though, that part is true.
Thank you, Teacher Terry for your consideration.
I would prefer to deal directly with my doctor, without interference.
Right?
(Actually, I would prefer to stay healthy enough to avoid the whole matter.)
So say we all :-)
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 2:27pm
It's nice to know that you think it would be funny if trump's wealthcare bill passes and my friend Amy's breast cancer reoccurs that she would be forced to either die or go bankrupt paying entirely out of pocket for treatment for a pre-existing condition.
I bet you and paul ryan have a blast together at kegger parties.Thank You for your humanity displayed here, JP1....it gives me some hope for human beings yet. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 2:29pm
The rich have always had a quirky sense of humor--witness "dead peasant insurance." Hahaha, oh rolling on the floor with laughter. So funny.
The mass of us are just "peasants" and "useless eaters" to them.Plus One Trillion, possibly more. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 2:42pm
Also, frankly, it doesnt help my empathy to hear ad nauseum how one member of our group here despises the taxpayers of the U.S.A. for their lack of "human dignity" and yet sucked down a good quarter of a million $ in hospital care in recent years with no charge to him.
While I don't expect groveling thanks, I do expect simple recognition that he was taken care of. But his drumbeat of "not good enough, never good enough, despicable" leads me to think that there are a lot of people out there with unrealistic expectations of how much things cost and how much the taxpayer is willing to give. This attitude is extremely wearing.IL, IL, IL......How unfortunate it is that we BOTH hold US Citizenship, no? Say we were Canadians, living outside of Vancouver (I vote for Surrey as when I was in Europe two years ago, Surrey, BC, Canada, is where I portrayed myself as being from, it's a classy name and most of the world likes Canada and Canadians)....this whole convo would be unnecessary as our lives would be worth socialized medicine. Just as this convo would be unnecessary in ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON. If you choose to believe that the American way of not caring the slightest bit about the next person is acceptable, I can not change your mind - that's your deal. Please don't judge me one iota for rejecting this line of thinking 100% and caring for my fellow man/woman and believing they are worth access to health care, too, funded by the collective. I saw through America at the age of 8 (very grateful for this, too!!!) and such thinking as yours I have pretty much been incapable of for 42 years now (as of this August 17th).
My point is that you get to think as you wish in regards to this issue. Just understand that not everyone is going to agree with you nor will everyone else share your opinion. Good thing you don't live in the 85006 - you would find yourself socially isolated here as your views - at least as far as health care goes - would be considered threatening. Though I'm sure there are numerous zip codes in the US where my views would also be seen as threatening. As I've said for years - Karl Marx was right about one thing: It all boils down to social class. Which is especially cruel in the United States as those remaining in the middle class in the US can find themselves knocked off this perch in the blink of an eye, quickly learning how abusive your line of thinking can be for those no longer on said financial perch. Rob
IL, IL, IL......How unfortunate it is that we BOTH hold US Citizenship, no? Say we were Canadians, living outside of Vancouver (I vote for Surrey as when I was in Europe two years ago, Surrey, BC, Canada, is where I portrayed myself as being from, it's a classy name and most of the world likes Canada and Canadians)....this whole convo would be unnecessary as our lives would be worth socialized medicine. Just as this convo would be unnecessary in ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON. If you choose to believe that the American way of not caring the slightest bit about the next person is acceptable, I can not change your mind - that's your deal. Please don't judge me one iota for rejecting this line of thinking 100% and caring for my fellow man/woman and believing they are worth access to health care, too, funded by the collective. I saw through America at the age of 8 (very grateful for this, too!!!) and such thinking as yours I have pretty much been incapable of for 42 years now (as of this August 17th).
My point is that you get to think as you wish in regards to this issue. Just understand that not everyone is going to agree with you nor will everyone else share your opinion. Good thing you don't live in the 85006 - you would find yourself socially isolated here as your views - at least as far as health care goes - would be considered threatening. Though I'm sure there are numerous zip codes in the US where my views would also be seen as threatening. As I've said for years - Karl Marx was right about one thing: It all boils down to social class. Which is especially cruel in the United States as those remaining in the middle class in the US can find themselves knocked off this perch in the blink of an eye, quickly learning how abusive your line of thinking can be for those no longer on said financial perch. Rob
And yet your still here. And how many from the 85006 came from somewhere else? And when you say funded by the collective, don't you really mean someone else.
i do enjoy reading your post though, very interesting.
" couldnt give a shit" it is pretty close to a personal attack, close enough for TT to consider editing it, especially since it isnt truthful or factual. Dmc IS kinda wealthy, though, that part is true.
Thank you, Teacher Terry for your consideration.
im a straight white male. I'm used to being attacked. No big deal.
Good thing you don't live in the 85006 - you would find yourself socially isolated here as your views - at least as far as health care goes - would be considered threatening.
Good gracious! That sure sounds like a fun community to live in. Civic-minded, celebrating diversity, and full of community spirit...
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 4:00pm
im a straight white male. I'm used to being attacked. No big deal.Ouch. DMC, I've read your reaction here and I've read what apparently IL posted before.....and all I am going to say is....please...let us all play at least neutral in the sandbox. If I can swallow my resentment of America for having me live in fear 24/7/365 of the United States due to the economic terrorism that was American health care before ObamaCare made things saner for me and the millions of easily expendable folks like me holding US citizenship....is it a far stretch for me to call for civility? You don't have to agree with or see things my way or any other poster's way - just neutral to other poster's takes. One kind way I can put this is that you don't know what someone else's struggles are, no? Just want to keep things somewhat civil here, this is the extent of my agenda. Thank You in advance for understanding. Rob of the 85006
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 4:03pm
Good gracious! That sure sounds like a fun community to live in. Civic-minded, celebrating diversity, and full of community spirit...Bae, exactly! How would you like to come on down and join our next protest? I'll be glad to let you know the cause, the date, and the time, and closer to the actual protest, if food and beverage are to be provided by a Valley charity or if you are on your own for food and beverage....Rob of the 85006
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 4:26pm
And yet your still here. And how many from the 85006 came from somewhere else? And when you say funded by the collective, don't you really mean someone else.
i do enjoy reading your post though, very interesting.No snark here at all....seriously. I'm glad you found my post here interesting. This actually gives me some small amount of hope for the human race....Thank You for that. Rob of the 85006
There you go Bae. You can start looking for your outfit now. Food And beverage included, maybe you could even get in a little looting.
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 4:39pm
There you go Bae. You can start looking for your outfit now. Food And beverage included, maybe you could even get in a little looting.Now, DMC.....was there any reason for this? Why the assumption that I agree with protestors looting? Seriously. This is uncalled for. I invite you to go back into my posting history where during the elections last year I stated more than once I was against looting. I really don't appreciate the assumption that I am OK with looting based on the beliefs I hold.....You get to believe as you wish and I understand that I have to accept this in my role as moderator....flip the script a bit and here's the deal....you get to hold your beliefs, too, even if I have disagreed with such beliefs since the age of 8 during the summer of 1975.
Whatever. It is however totally inappropriate to mention looting....I don't wish to ban you but I will bring this up behind the scenes with other moderators as this is truly too disrespectful to the struggles of the lower social classes. Nothing personal.....but this crosses the line and for once I am calling human rights/human dignity. How could I live with myself if I didn't? And finally, about my outfit....it is on hold for the joyous day of a Trump impeachment....what is so hard to understand about that? I will not be wearing my Westside Thrift Shop Outfit until the joyous day of Trump's impeachment. Rob
Bae, exactly! How would you like to come on down and join our next protest?
No thanks. I don't feel like being shunned, or socially isolated, for my views if they happen to be different from those of The Speaker For The 85006. I wouldn't feel it to be a safe space.
I don't wish to ban you but I will bring this up behind the scenes with other moderators as this is truly too disrespectful to the struggles of the lower social classes. Nothing personal.....but this crosses the line and for once I am calling human rights/human dignity. How could I live with myself if I didn't? Rob of the 85006
Seriously???
You need to step down as a moderator then Rob. Or the owner of the board needs to remove you.
Now, DMC.....was there any reason for this? Why the assumption that I agree with protestors looting? Seriously. This is uncalled for. I invite you to go back into my posting history where during the elections last year I stated more than once I was against looting. I really don't appreciate the assumption that I am OK with looting based on the beliefs I hold.....You get to believe as you wish and I understand that I have to accept this in my role as moderator....flip the script a bit and here's the deal....you get to hold your beliefs, too, even if I have disagreed with such beliefs since the age of 8 during the summer of 1975. Whatever. It is however totally inappropriate to mention looting....I don't wish to ban you but I will bring this up behind the scenes with other moderators as this is truly too disrespectful to the struggles of the lower social classes. Nothing personal.....but this crosses the line and for once I am calling human rights/human dignity. How could I live with myself if I didn't? Rob of the 85006
i didn't say you were ok with looting. But many of the protest from the lower classes include looting and burning these days. Do you not watch the news?
As far as banning, I really don't care. If it will make you feel better, go ahead.
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 5:13pm
Seriously???
You need to step down as a moderator then Rob. Or the owner of the board needs to remove you.So it is acceptable then to assume I am looting as a feature of protesting? This assumption does not equate with harrassment? I will admit I don't live in your area of Washington State but here in the 85006, such an assumption equates with harrassment. I expect an apology not from you but from DMC. DMC truly crossed the line big time here and on this one I am going to call him on it....not for me so much as I realize that DMC and I will never be drinking shots of Presidente while hearing of Trump's insults to Mexico and it's people from other residents of the 85006....I bring this up only because it is so disrespectful to so many law compliant protestors I am privileged to know in the 85006. Their bravery and willingness to protest the numerous evils in the current American landscape deserves at a rock bottom minumum neutrality. This one is non-negotiable in my book after having lived in fear of the United States for years. Rob of the 85006
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 5:18pm
i didn't say you were ok with looting. But many of the protest from the lower classes include looting and burning these days. Do you not watch the news?
As far as banning, I really don't care. If it will make you feel better, go ahead.It is not for me to ban you, nor do I wish to hold such power. All I ask for
is for basic respect for the social classes beneath you. Are you capable of such? Truly based on my experience with you to date I rather doubt it. You really did cross the line when assuming that I was part of looting just for joining protests with other residents of the 85006.....This was completely unacceptable. Non-negotiable here is this stance. Rob
So it is acceptable then to assume I am looting as a feature of protesting? This assumption does not equate with harrassment? I will admit I don't live in your area of Washington State but here in the 85006, such an assumption equates with harrassment. I expect an apology not from you but from DMC. DMC truly crossed the line big time here and on this one I am going to call him on it....
Step down.
It is not for me to ban you, nor do I wish to hold such power. All I ask for
is for basic respect for the social classes beneath you. Are you capable of such? Truly based on my experience with you to date I rather doubt it. You really did cross the line when assuming that I was part of looting just for joining protests with other residents of the 85006.....This was completely unacceptable. Non-negotiable here is this stance. Rob
Rob. ^ This is you, crossing the line. Repeatedly.
Step down.
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-17, 5:54pm
What part of being assumed to be a looter for simply protesting being unacceptable to an extreme don't you understand, Bae? Rob of the 85006
What part of being assumed to be a looter for simply protesting being unacceptable to an extreme don't you understand, Bae? Rob of the 85006
Step down.
iris lilies
7-8-17, 7:09pm
im a straight white male. I'm used to being attacked. No big deal.
Well, I kinda thought that. :)
Williamsmith
7-8-17, 11:45pm
Some day we will have a single payer healthcare system simply because we failed to agree on how to fix this horrible system we have now. Whether Obamacare is so abhorrent because it was a rush job or because it was intended to place us in a favorable frame of mind for accepting single payer.......doesn't matter.....it will be irrelevant. What this thread proves is we are incapable of problem solving without finger pointing and so we will look for a model to adopt. Well, lucky for us, there are plenty to choose from and before we kill each other over it.......we ought to pick one and commit for the sake of preserving the superpower we still are. Moving along the same path is sure ruin. After all folks...this isn't rocket science.....it's just healthcare.
iris lilies
7-8-17, 11:46pm
Some day we will have a single payer healthcare system simply because we failed to agree on how to fix this horrible system we have now. Whether Obamacare is so abhorrent because it was a rush job or because it was intended to place us in a favorable frame of mind for accepting single payer.......doesn't matter.....it will be irrelevant. What this thread proves is we are incapable of problem solving without finger pointing and so we will look for a model to adopt. Well, lucky for us, there are plenty to choose from and before we kill each other over it.......we ought to pick one and commit for the sake of preserving the superpower we still are. Moving along the same path is sure ruin. After all folks...this isn't rocket science.....it's just healthcare.
I think you are probably right about this, and for the reasons you state.
I think you are probably right about this, and for the reasons you state.
Ayup.
I am however cautious about adopting "a proven model", as generally the countries that are brought up as exemplars are markedly-different from the USA in some significant ways. I've made a bit of a semi-professional hobby the past several years visiting many of these places to get a sense for how they run things, and while some are fabulous, their experience and constraints aren't quite comparable.
(To be fair, I'm also country-shopping, like Rob, but perhaps for rather different reasons... I even got a job offer out-of-the-blue from one of the Nordic nations.)
Ayup.
I am however cautious about adopting "a proven model", as generally the countries that are brought up as exemplars are markedly-different from the USA in some significant ways. I've made a bit of a semi-professional hobby the past several years visiting many of these places to get a sense for how they run things, and while some are fabulous, their experience and constraints aren't quite comparable.
(To be fair, I'm also country-shopping, like Rob, but perhaps for rather different reasons... I even got a job offer out-of-the-blue from one of the Nordic nations.)
I used to think we, as a country, were capable of crafting our own improved version of health care, complete with choice and cost containment. I'm pessimistic these days. American isn't as exceptional as we keep asserting it is, IMO--we're still basking in our post WWII glory, I'm afraid.
Teacher Terry
7-9-17, 3:02pm
Post edited. Bae, I never ever said you were lying. I just reported what happened with my family and recently my good friend. When first on Hospice they billed Medicare for all her meds and we paid very small co-pays. Her small pension of 1950 covered her care and her meds, etc. It was not until she went into a more secure smaller side of the home because she required more care that we needed Medicaid to step in and pay for the almost doubling of the rent at the home. Since she died I just finished up paying the small co-pays that were left. I had to put her in a home a hour from us because they were the only decent place that would accept her small income for payment. Even the dumps in our town would not take her income and wanted about double. I am upset that 2 hard working people got the shaft. Now some will argue they paid their bills but I argue if medical bills had not taken all their $. I could have put her in a home in town so I could have seen a lot more of her which would have been good for her instead of just going weekly. I don't care that they left heirs with no $ and neither do his kids. I just care that there was not enough $ to provide her with care in this town. Others would have visited also but when people work f.t. they are not willing to drive an hour each way so had no visitors but us.
Some day we will have a single payer healthcare system simply because we failed to agree on how to fix this horrible system we have now. Whether Obamacare is so abhorrent because it was a rush job or because it was intended to place us in a favorable frame of mind for accepting single payer.......doesn't matter.....it will be irrelevant. What this thread proves is we are incapable of problem solving without finger pointing and so we will look for a model to adopt. Well, lucky for us, there are plenty to choose from and before we kill each other over it.......we ought to pick one and commit for the sake of preserving the superpower we still are. Moving along the same path is sure ruin. After all folks...this isn't rocket science.....it's just healthcare.
I think you're right on that. The Rugged Individualists and Eternal Victims will argue for a few more years, but in the end government scope creep and entitlement marketing will -probably win out. Hopefully, there will still be some free-market supplement options allowed at the margins.
ToomuchStuff
7-10-17, 10:59am
What part of being assumed to be a looter for simply protesting being unacceptable to an extreme don't you understand, Bae? Rob of the 85006
You made the assumption. You need to step down or be removed.
iris lilies
7-10-17, 11:29am
You made the assumption. You need to step down or be removed.
Or at least dial back the faux-victim talk. Rob, no one called you a looter. That looting happens in conjunction with protesting is hardly a shocking disclosure.
Terry, what a difficult situation--my heart goes out to you.
Yes, Terry, Freshstart, you guys are on the frontlines here. SO hard. And Terry--for stepping up for your friends--I am in awe.
gimmethesimplelife
7-10-17, 12:23pm
Or at least dial back the faux-victim talk. Rob, no one called you a looter. That looting happens in conjunction with protesting is hardly a shocking disclosure.In my world, protesting does not automatically equate with looting. Matter of fact, there was no looting going on last Fall when I protested against the Well Fargo Brand when their evil came to light, nor was there any looting at the United Airlines Brand protests I recently was part of. It's a stereotype - and one I'll admit is perpetuated by the media, that looting always takes place at protests. Not so. I am living proof of otherwise. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-10-17, 12:26pm
Yes, Terry, Freshstart, you guys are on the frontlines here. SO hard. And Terry--for stepping up for your friends--I am in awe.+1 Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-10-17, 12:27pm
Terry, what a difficult situation--my heart goes out to you.+1 Rob
Terry: I also admire you for your selfless friendship.
Rob: I agree that it's pretty insulting to equate protesting with looting. There have been tons of peaceful protests in history--although some have turned violent by the protestees (I guess that's not a word--it got rejected by spellcheck. I'm thinking in particular of all the non-violent protests by King, Gandhi and Mandela)
gimmethesimplelife
7-10-17, 1:33pm
Terry: I also admire you for your selfless friendship.
Rob: I agree that it's pretty insulting to equate protesting with looting. There have been tons of peaceful protests in history--although some have turned violent by the protestees (I guess that's not a word--it got rejected by spellcheck.)Thank You, Catherine. I appreciate your take on this and your kind words. Rob
I don't think Occupy was marked by looting, either.
ApatheticNoMore
7-10-17, 1:36pm
It's kind of like someone who is convinced all black people are looters. Is it worth wasting time arguing with them? Only if it was an honest mistake (they don't get out much or something and so kind of don't know anything). But it's usually not.
Now I question how *effective* much protesting is but ...
gimmethesimplelife
7-10-17, 1:36pm
I don't think Occupy was marked by looting, either.Bingo! Though I will say the one area where the Occupiers did not play nice in the sandbox.....they left a lot of garbage behind.....not especially good PR. Rob
The Occupy people I know, and yes, they still get together, although they have morphed into the Indivisible people, are staunch environmentalist plus Northern Michiganders, and they leave no trash, anywhere.
ApatheticNoMore
7-10-17, 1:41pm
Bingo! Though I will say the one area where the Occupiers did not play nice in the sandbox.....they left a lot of garbage behind.....not especially good PR. Rob
that's the stereotype (maybe some truth), about how messy Occupiers were (oh and smelly!), now I approached an Occupy encampment and it was indeed messy and filled with smelly people! And then I realized that wasn't really the encampment but just a park on the way there that was full of homeless people! (and no Occupiers right there because it wasn't the encampment).
Haha, that's your real urban realities there. Would anyone even notice Occupy litter in all the background litter? Part of the cleaning up thing is if one is made to evacuate in the middle of the night or whatever by the police, there isn't actually ANY TIME to clean up one's stuff. That is what happened with many Occupy encampments. Of course Occupy also did welcome actually seriously marginalized people like homeless as well.
Protests are often infiltrated by the lawless--e.g. the anarchist groups that regularly show up. I suspect that there are paid (or not) provocateurs, too, who turn up just so the narrative can be set to "see, those violent hippies are at it again." Most of us who protest are resolutely peaceful. I was in an anti-war march in Seattle with 10,000 of my closest friends that was completely without incident. Also without influence, unfortunately.
gimmethesimplelife
7-10-17, 1:50pm
It's kind of like someone who is convinced all black people are looters. Is it worth wasting time arguing with them? Only if it was an honest mistake (they don't get out much or something and so kind of don't know anything). But it's usually not.
Now I question how *effective* much protesting is but ...ANM, I get your point and I agree as to is it worth arguing with such people in the first place.....One of the more interesting quirks in my personality is that I could care less what such people think of me - I stand up for my husband, my in-laws, my Mother, and the many folks I am privileged to know in the 85006 way before I stand up for myself. That was what this spat here between myself and other regular posters here was about, at least from my side of things. But I agree......I am not going to change minds here. It's hard not to stand up for others against injustice, though. Rob
Teacher Terry
7-10-17, 1:51pm
Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it:)) Diane never had any kids and most of her family was dead so really no one to help. Her DH had kids in the neighboring state. Finally the last 8 months they did help with him. I would want someone to help me if I was in that situation. Interestingly enough this couple doggy sat for us when they were well and the dogs all loved them. A week after Diane died my favorite dog died so I told her to go be with them. A few nights later they all appeared in my dream together.
I don't think Occupy was marked by looting, either.
That's right.
Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it:)) Diane never had any kids and most of her family was dead so really no one to help. Her DH had kids in the neighboring state. Finally the last 8 months they did help with him. I would want someone to help me if I was in that situation. Interestingly enough this couple doggy sat for us when they were well and the dogs all loved them. A week after Diane died my favorite dog died so I told her to go be with them. A few nights later they all appeared in my dream together.
Oh, that is so nice, very encouraging to hear
Protests are often infiltrated by the lawless--e.g. the anarchist groups that regularly show up.
As I've mentioned, I show up for the regular Washington State Patrol's anti-riot/protest training sessions, to be one of the role-playing protesters. It's sort of fun getting water-cannoned, tear gassed, batoned, and tackled/arrested, all by people trying to learn to do so in a reasonably-safe fashion for all concerned.
In my chats with the WSP folks, they also believe there is a core of agitators who show up at pretty much every protest with the intent to incite disharmony of various sorts. They spend a fair bit of effort trying to identify these "frequent flyers"...
Looks like the protesters at the G20 had a good time. Only several hundred police officers injured. And Some looting and rioting.
All in good fun.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/08/europe/g20-protests/index.html
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