So what do we do about the police after Minneapolis?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm sure it's no great surprise to the regular posters here that I am very upset about the cold blooded murder of the Australian national recently in Minneapolis. Instead of going on and on about this tragic tale, I'd like to take a new angle and focus instead on what can actually be done about such incidents in the future in an attempt to spare innocent human life? I'm sure you'all have heard about fully charged smartphone blah blah blah - I won't repeat that here and now but one tip I've been given is to get a card from an attorney if possible and carry it with you at all times and in the unfortunate event you are hassled by the police for no legal reason whatsoever - show them ID at their request (they do have the legal right to ask for this and the legal right to expect you to provide such) and then neutrally state that you are unable to speak to them period, or any answer questions concerning any matter unless in the presence of an attorney. And then offer to hand the officers the attorney's card, first asking if they are going to freak out if this is all recorded for life protection. I believe it's really sad that society has sunk to this but A). It has, and B). I refuse risk my life via interacting with these people who have proven time and time again that their ranks include psychopaths with no regard for human life.

What tips do you have to protect your life from these people? After Minneapolis, we really do need to have a nationwide, across all social classes discussion regarding the evils of the American police and how to best position yourself to protect your lives and your property from them....and how to strike back against them in courts of law for top dollar. It's gotten to the point where I would not even discuss something neutral like the weather with a police officer - they are all about filling for profit prisons with generating as many arrests as possible and issuing as many tickets as possible to generate maximum revenue. Given this sorry state of affairs, is it not the sanest thing to do to flip the script and use THEM for top dollar settlements? I don't see much other use for the police at this point, given their rogue anti-citizen, them vs. us nature. Too bad Sanders did not win, I honestly believe he might have at least tried to curtail their power.

Anyone else have any ideas how to protect your lives and your property from these people? Rob

[iris lilies]

In general, it is a good idea for citizens to be vigilant about the overreach of government. Local police are the agents of local government. Police carry out the agenda of the dominant society, so it is important to keep an eye on that agenda and figure out where you fit in.

Today, in my neighborhood, I fit in the demographic that is the dominant social group, and that demographic is tax paying, law abiding ( for the most part) citizenry. The demographic that doesnt fit tends to be made up of minority males.

I understand that balance of power could change and I could find myself in the minority, the demographic that is not served by the local Gendarmes. I might move if that were the case and if I were mobile. Who knows?

This is all theoretical.

[LDAHL]

I'm sure it's no great surprise to the regular posters here that I am very upset about the cold blooded murder of the Australian national recently in Minneapolis. Instead of going on and on about this tragic tale, I'd like to take a new angle and focus instead on what can actually be done about such incidents in the future in an attempt to spare innocent human life? I'm sure you'all have heard about fully charged smartphone blah blah blah - I won't repeat that here and now but one tip I've been given is to get a card from an attorney if possible and carry it with you at all times and in the unfortunate event you are hassled by the police for no legal reason whatsoever - show them ID at their request (they do have the legal right to ask for this and the legal right to expect you to provide such) and then neutrally state that you are unable to speak to them period, or any answer questions concerning any matter unless in the presence of an attorney. And then offer to hand the officers the attorney's card, first asking if they are going to freak out if this is all recorded for life protection. I believe it's really sad that society has sunk to this but A). It has, and B). I refuse risk my life via interacting with these people who have proven time and time again that their ranks include psychopaths with no regard for human life.

What tips do you have to protect your life from these people? After Minneapolis, we really do need to have a nationwide, across all social classes discussion regarding the evils of the American police and how to best position yourself to protect your lives and your property from them....and how to strike back against them in courts of law for top dollar. It's gotten to the point where I would not even discuss something neutral like the weather with a police officer - they are all about filling for profit prisons with generating as many arrests as possible and issuing as many tickets as possible to generate maximum revenue. Given this sorry state of affairs, is it not the sanest thing to do to flip the script and use THEM for top dollar settlements? I don't see much other use for the police at this point, given their rogue anti-citizen, them vs. us nature. Too bad Sanders did not win, I honestly believe he might have at least tried to curtail their power.

Anyone else have any ideas how to protect your lives and your property from these people? Rob

Wouldn't it be a good idea to get a few facts about the case before defaulting to the usual language about "cold-blooded murder" and the "evils of the American police"?

[Williamsmith]

Rob, I would urge you to get to know a few of the police officers in and around your zip code. Prejudice is born out of fear and you need to be more rational in your approach to emotional topics.

Minneapolis has a very young police force , as many large cities do. Youth is great but it comes at the cost of lack of experience. The officer involved here is reported to have only 2 years experience and his partner only 1. In a city with the crime problems of Minneapolis, experience is invaluable. I can't know what really happened here yet and neither can you. But I will predict that "inexperience" will become an issue with pairing officers who ride together.

In addition, I find it ironic that the Justice Department during the Obama years targeted many large cities and put them under a mandate to hire "ethnically diverse" new police officers that reflect the racial makeup of the communities they serve. While this is a goal with merit......it became preemptery to hiring "qualified" candidates. Recruiters commonly scoured neighborhoods looking to "develop" candidates that would satisfy the Justice Department. Recruitment most often uses carrots to tempt otherwise uninterested candidates into a career which they have no latent feelings for.

My guess is many social justice warriors are wringing their hands in disappointment over the fact that the offending officer was Somali born and black. The more important aspect probably will be that he simply was too on edge to be properly cognizant of his surroundings and too fearful for his own life to preserve the life of others.

And more importantly Rob, I am sure rather than this man being a "cold blooded murderer"..... he is probably wishing he accidentally shot himself instead. The District Attorney and the BCI will serve up justice.

Some things are just tragic and heartbreaking. We must try to do better. You must quit seeing the boogie man around every corner.

[catherine]

Williamsmith, without having the experience you have, those were kind of my initial thoughts. Apparently he was spooked by a loud sound. Not good to have a weapon in your hand when you're spooked and inexperienced, I'm sure. I also agree that he probably is feeling abject regret over this event.

Rob, I understand that you and your friends have had difficult encounters with law enforcement, but please try not to paint all tragic shootings with the same brush. I just watched one of my favorite authors/philosophers on Oprah last weekend, and he said that hate and fear arises when you don't recognize that you have never had the totality of "the other's" experience. Wisdom comes from knowing that if you had lived in the shoes of another, you would probably act in exactly the same way. The only way back to connection and interbeing is the ability to see that we are all mirrors of each other.

Here's the entire interview, which I loved: https://charleseisenstein.net/videos/oprah-winfrey-full-episode-interview-7-2017/

[Reyes]

The stereotyping is a bit much. Come on Rob, you and I am part of a group that have been harmed by such broad paint brush stereotyping, why do the same for another group?

I am interested to read more about this case as facts come forward.

[bae]

I find it odd that Rob didn't concern himself with the police-involved cold-blooded murder of Miosotis Familia, a 48 year old black woman, mother of 3, recently.

[iris lilies]

I find it odd that Rob didn't concern himself with the police-involved cold-blooded murder of Miosotis Familia, a 48 year old black woman, mother of 3, recently.
Black lives matter unless they are blue.

[bae]

...show them ID at their request (they do have the legal right to ask for this and the legal right to expect you to provide such)


Where did you get the idea that this is generally the law? You are not required, in most states, to carry ID or to provide it upon demand.



Anyone else have any ideas how to protect your lives and your property from these people? Rob

I guess I'd start out by developing an understanding of what rights I actually have, what the local laws are, what the Supreme Court has said, and so on.... The ACLU has some good introductory material available. So does https://www.flexyourrights.org/

[Teacher Terry]

I am sick of the killings of police and innocent civilians. I felt so bad for the black officer and her family. I feel terrible too for this latest victim. If I see a cop I smile and say Hi and keep moving. Many years ago there was a famous killing in New YOrk City in front of an apartment complex where everyone heard a woman screaming and just assumed someone else called the cops but no one did and she died. IN the past if I heard something going on and thought it warranted police action I would call. I would not anymore. And if I did call because someone was being raped/murdered I certainly would not give my name or walk outside of my house. My behavior has changed profoundly and it is based on what is happening here and all over the country. I have no clue why everyone has gotten so violent and it does seem like officers are inexperienced and above their heads in this job. I wonder if people have figured out how to beat the psychological test they are given to try to weed out the nut jobs. I really don't know what is going on but this needs to stop. I really hope this officer goes to prison for life and that example will finally wake up other officers that they can't shoot first, say they were afraid for their lives and get away with murder.

[Simplemind]

The job of police officer is not what it once was. It can be a job with more stress than you can imagine. Like any profession there are different levels of competency in even the most seasoned officers. These are human beings tasked with making irreversible decisions in a split second. If you are right you are a hero, if wrong you are a criminal. There are bad apples out there, I have known them. I have also worked next to those who have been put in that position, did what they were trained to do but were never able to work the street again. It crushed them and they have never been the same.
The few facts that we know in this case are disturbing but we don't know them all. Each individual case is judged on its merits and those involved should be held accountable. By and large the men and women called to this profession whole heartedly believe in the oath they took to uphold the law and do not believe themselves to be above it. It disgusts me to see people negatively judge the entire profession based on the actions of a few.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I am sick of the killings of police and innocent civilians. I felt so bad for the black officer and her family. I feel terrible too for this latest victim. If I see a cop I smile and say Hi and keep moving. Many years ago there was a famous killing in New YOrk City in front of an apartment complex where everyone heard a woman screaming and just assumed someone else called the cops but no one did and she died. IN the past if I heard something going on and thought it warranted police action I would call. I would not anymore. And if I did call because someone was being raped/murdered I certainly would not give my name or walk outside of my house. My behavior has changed profoundly and it is based on what is happening here and all over the country. I have no clue why everyone has gotten so violent and it does seem like officers are inexperienced and above their heads in this job. I wonder if people have figured out how to beat the psychological test they are given to try to weed out the nut jobs. I really don't know what is going on but this needs to stop. I really hope this officer goes to prison for life and that example will finally wake up other officers that they can't shoot first, say they were afraid for their lives and get away with murder.Bingo! You get it, TT. I wish you lived in my area and we could meet up for coffee and talk. I won't dispute that others posters here do have some valid points, but I have to say, TT, you get it. My hat is off to you (and I often wear hats once the weather cools off in October). Rob

[iris lilies]

I am sick of the killings of police and innocent civilians. I felt so bad for the black officer and her family. I feel terrible too for this latest victim. If I see a cop I smile and say Hi and keep moving. Many years ago there was a famous killing in New YOrk City in front of an apartment complex where everyone heard a woman screaming and just assumed someone else called the cops but no one did and she die...

.

you mean Kitty Genovese.

Recently I watched a documentary that busted that old canard, the one about no one called the cops. Actually, many people called and there was even someone with her when she died. The. narrative of uncaring. residents was put forth by one of the newspapers, maybe the NYT (imagine that!) but cant remember which one. That writer and his editor had an agenda.

Now, it is likely true that Kitty's injuries were so severe she didn't have a chance to live, regardless of when cops were called to come to the scene.

[Teacher Terry]

Yes IL. I could not remember her name. We read about this story when I was in grad school in the early 1990's. Interesting that the story was not correct. Good to know that it wasn't true.

[Ultralight]

Rob:

Why not do a ride-along with some police in your area?

I am more liberal than you, dude. But I can tell you that cops are not the nearly uniform murderous fiends you think they are.

Interact with some cops; have some conversations with them.

[LDAHL]

you mean Kitty Genovese.

Recently I watched a documentary that busted that old canard, the one about no one called the cops. Actually, many people called and there was even someone with her when she died. The. narrative of uncaring. residents was put forth by one of the newspapers, maybe the NYT (imagine that!) but cant remember which one. That writer and his editor had an agenda.

Now, it is likely true that Kitty's injuries were so severe she didn't have a chance to live, regardless of when cops were called to come to the scene.

I think it was Mark Twain who said "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".

I would be interested in knowing if police shootings are trending up or down. A quick google-recon seemed to yield mixed results.

In any event, hysterical vaporing over an event we yet know little about would not seem to serve any useful purpose.

[bae]

In any event, hysterical vaporing over an event we yet know little about would not seem to serve any useful purpose.

#Resistance

[Yppej]

My local police when I have lived in towns and small cities have helped me on several occasions. A lot, though not all, of the policing problems I see on the news are in big cities. Where do you live Rob?

[Ultralight]

My local police when I have lived in towns and small cities have helped me on several occasions. A lot, though not all, of the policing problems I see on the news are in big cities. Where do you live Rob? He lives in Phoenix.

[Teacher Terry]

At one point in time I lived in Milwaukee and my friend's husband was a cop and he had some bad things happen to him. domestic disputes were the worst of course. But during many years you just never heard or saw all these unarmed people being killed by cops. Now was that happening and we did not know because no instant access to information like we have now or are they increasing? If it was hidden then it is good it has come to light. However, if it is increasing then we need to get to the bottom of it and try to problem solve how things can be done better. It is a serious problem.

[iris lilies]

I think it was Mark Twain who said "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".

I would be interested in knowing if police shootings are trending up or down. A quick google-recon seemed to yield mixed results.

In any event, hysterical vaporing over an event we yet know little about would not seem to serve any useful purpose.

Haha to Mark Twain, our Missouri wag.

But I think you are wrong, hysterical vaporing IS the point. It is all about the feelings.

[Williamsmith]

At one point in time I lived in Milwaukee and my friend's husband was a cop and he had some bad things happen to him. domestic disputes were the worst of course. But during many years you just never heard or saw all these unarmed people being killed by cops. Now was that happening and we did not know because no instant access to information like we have now or are they increasing? If it was hidden then it is good it has come to light. However, if it is increasing then we need to get to the bottom of it and try to problem solve how things can be done better. It is a serious problem.

Better training Terry. But it's going to cost lots of money. Money which these cities most certainly do not have. Would you take money from the school district, how about welfare, or transportation? The fact is, so much emphasis has been placed on technology to solve that problem and at the cost of basic police procedure, street tactics. They put a twenty pound bat belt on these kids and expect them to sort through a pyramid of use of force options. It's way too overwhelming and I am surprised more of this doesn't happen. Plenty of good officers are spending there own money on training so as not to find themselves in this mess.

[Yppej]

Why not take all the money wasted on the war on drugs and use it for training? Drugs can be treated as a medical issue. The Senate realized it should be, adding money for treatment of opioids to its failed bill, and Obamacare did by expanding Medicaid so more addicts are covered.

[LDAHL]

Haha to Mark Twain, our Misouri wag.

But I think you are wrong, hyterical vaporing IS the point. It is all about the feelings.

If each of these incidents is just a bloody Rorschach test for too many of us, then we're pretty much doomed.

[Tybee]

Rob, what do you feel should be done to help with this problem and who should do it?

What positive things can you suggest to deal with these problems of police brutality, and lethal interventions? I don't think anyone is arguing that there are real problems here.
So what do you feel should be done? We need police officers, so how do you propose to have the police officers integrate more successfully into the communities they are policing?

[dmc]

We should make the 85006 a test trial for the future. Ban all police from entering, the citizens don't want them. And with the money saved they can equip all the 85006 with smart phones for their defense. They can then use the phones videos to sue any wrongdoers.

If anyone from the police enter the zip codes they could lose their pensions.

[Teacher Terry]

Use some of the massive amount of $ we spend on defense to train officers. I am disturbed that the 2 cops involved in this training are saying they heard a loud noise and thought it was a trap. They are already preparing their defense to get away with murder. Since they are given a huge benefit of the doubt with being cops this will probably work.

[Tybee]

Use some of the massive amount of $ we spend on defense to train officers. I am disturbed that the 2 cops involved in this training are saying they heard a loud noise and thought it was a trap. They are already preparing their defense to get away with murder. Since they are given a huge benefit of the doubt with being cops this will probably work.

Or maybe they are preparing their defense because they thought they heard a loud noise and thought it was a trap. I would hope people are still innocent until proven guilty.

[Teacher Terry]

Tybee, maybe. Once she did her civic duty by calling it is too bad she just didn't go back to bed. It is just getting too dangerous to do otherwise unfortunately. Maybe Australia is not having this type of problem so she was unaware of how things in the states are.

[bae]

We should make the 85006 a test trial for the future. Ban all police from entering, the citizens don't want them.

I'm surprised police, fire, and EMS still respond to some neighborhoods.

I have a bullet-resistant vest in my emergency response gear, but it is meant to be used in quite exceptional circumstances, not worn every day in my encounters with our local citizenry. I understand there are some departments in America where fire/ems are issued the vests for routine wear. I don't think I'd work or live in a place like that willingly.

[Williamsmith]

Or maybe they are preparing their defense because they thought they heard a loud noise and thought it was a trap. I would hope people are still innocent until proven guilty.

Having your sidearm out on your lap while still in the patrol car is a risky tactic. First the patrol vehicle blocks your field of view, second the configuration of equipment inside the vehicle becomes an impediment to presenting your firearm in a responsive way and in a safe manner and three reholstering while seated is not a good practice. Imagine you get into a high speed chase quite unexpectedly. Reholstering under duress or worse trying to hold onto an unsecured weapon is poor tactics. The energy forces developed in a vehicle chase are greater than your ability to grip a weapon especially on deceleration and impact.

I think a jury will get the chance to sit in the patrol car in question, in a dark alley without interior and exterior lights. I think at least one of those jury members might be convinced that it could have been an accidental discharge. Any good defense attorney will research any explanation that removes men's rea or guilty intent.

That the officer was merely covering a perceived threat and could have easily bumped his strong hand into the computer and radio equipment or accessories. Police departments have increasingly gone to smaller mid size vehicles and increasingly crammed more equipment inside so that the passenger officer has very little room to maneveur.

An experienced officer may have chosen to first arrange to meet the complainant and then seek the offender. Or perhaps opted to park the patrol car and do a foot search. Ones personal safety is paramount but it can't impede your ability to safely get the job done.

And the design, make and manufacture of the firearm in question along with any reports of accidental discharge .....court testimony by armourers and experts will be key to the defense.

[Williamsmith]

Rob, when you cross the border into Mexico......don't let your guard down.

http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-murders-20170721-story.html

[Williamsmith]

Police Chief resigns ...... focus on training and education did not have desired effects. This is going to help any defense tactics should this officer be charged.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/janee-harteau-minnesota-police-chief-resigns-amid-justine-damond-shooting-controversy/

[ToomuchStuff]

Simple solution to a complex problem......
stop all crime.