Heresy at Google

[LDAHL]

I took a look at the leaked memo that the media keeps referring to as an "anti-diversity screed".

http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320

I must be missing some of the higher-pitched dog whistles here. The guy could have been slightly more sensitive, perhaps, but he seemed more interested in different ways to arrive at "diversity" rather than attacking the concept. I wonder how many of the people who want to treat it like Mein Kampf actually read it.

[ToomuchStuff]

I think you hit on the point, he wasn't sensitive. They want emotions as you can control and drive people with those and the ones in charge are then made to look smart. With reason and logic, you can't control as others have both different viewpoints as well as triggers that they use to control. He could have risen to a position of power with his own followers and that is not something they wanted.

[Alan]

I feel for the guy. He took the time and effort to address a societal problem from the standpoint of helping Google do a better job at being truly diverse, and was summarily fired for it.

Progressive environments will not / can not allow deviation from their core ideology, whether that's a company such as Google or any number of media conglomerates who have inaccurately reported on this issue in order to discredit the author. Perhaps if he hadn't presented himself as a 'classical liberal' he wouldn't have been targeted as harshly.

I have long believed the progressive philosophy of discrimination to achieve fairness, emphasis on feelings over reason and the showcasing of race/gender in all aspects of life have deprived the political party most responsible of the ability to govern as the common citizen shows their disdain for such narrowly focused ideologies by removing those party representatives from over a thousand offices nationwide.

From a 'classical liberal' who also enjoys irony, I say let progressive companies such as Google and the vast majority of all media continue down this path. Politically, it's good for the country even if individuals such as the author pay a heavy price for pointing it out.

[bae]

His analysis of the differences between men/women seemed full of just-so stories. Here's a more nuanced response to his thesis, by a non-Google employee:

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788


And as a bunny trail, the following line in the "memo" showed some of the author's own hidden bias/classism from his padded brogrammer bubble:

"Note, the same forces that lead men into high pay/high stress jobs in tech and leadership cause men to take undesirable and dangerous jobs like coal mining, garbage collection, and firefighting, and suffer 93% of work-related deaths."

It is not atypical for a fire department to have hundreds of applicants for a single open firefighting position, on the rare occasion a position is offered. Even small departments - a local nearby mainland town opened up two positions last year, and they got 1200 applicants. Jobs in the fire service are clearly objectively *not* "undesireable", and often are high-status positions. Except perhaps to spindly brogrammers.

[Tybee]

Really liked the Zunger commentary, thanks Bae for linking that. I agree completely with Zunger when he stated,
"Despite speaking very authoritatively, the author does not appear to understand gender."

[ApatheticNoMore]

So why are women not "good enough" for tech? Because we aren't smart enough at technical material, if it's that, oh good heavens grief, I work in tech, my mom was an engineer, her mom had a law degree - yea us dumb women we sure can't manage to master detailed technical material. I could more see women being turned off by other aspects though, if it's a 24/7 culture, if women want kids especially, they might seek more work-life balance. If it's super competitive that will appeal to some women but be a turn off for others etc..

And of course there is sexual harassment in *some* tech workplaces, Uber etc., it's pretty well documented. What woman would stay with that kind of BS goin on? One with low self-esteem sadly probably, the others probably get a better deal leaving those environments.


·Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men (also interpreted as empathizing vs. systemizing).

blah blah, like you can't intellectualize and systemize even when you are thinking about people, like they have never met an INTP female. It's probably an annoying trait really, but it's what INTP types naturally do.

[Williamsmith]

I'm curious if anyone here knows if Damore provided the internal memo to gizmodo or is the "leaker" unknown? The whole thing seems way too scripted to me. Damore had to know what a crap storm this was going to cause. If Google doesn't go after the leaker, it would be a tactical mistake. Because that was as harmful to the workplace conditions as the memorandum itself. I wouldn't be surprised if Damore had an income guarantee before he set this bomb off.

[bae]

It does rather seem like a scripted event.

[LDAHL]

Really liked the Zunger commentary, thanks Bae for linking that. I agree completely with Zunger when he stated,
"Despite speaking very authoritatively, the author does not appear to understand gender."



I'm not sure Zunger understands what a manifesto is. It didn't read like one to me. A bit sophomoric to be sure, but not the evil statement of principles that all the bold warriors must strike down. I understand that Google needs to be ready for the next lawsuit and that VPs for Diversity gotta eat too, but summary execution seems a bit extreme in this case.

I long for the simpler times when the only ideology corporations needed to worry about was shareholder value.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I found that zunger article pretty whatever, I mean most of the entire people in this office I am working in (dev - just code monkeys) spend most of their days alone at their desks, it is true you might do less of this if you get promoted to management, but promotions anywhere are few and far between because they always need more worker bees than managers (best to start at a *very* small company if that is what one is after, a small but growing company - by the time a company is mid-sized it's often hopelessly rigid). Maybe Google isn't, but I have to tell you a lot of companies hiring are a lot more boring than Google. Most people do not get promoted upward to bigger and better (though there is always sending out resumes of course).

If you are lucky you may have some opportunities to work with people, if not, less so. I always enjoy when I get to work with people, but I can't really say it's much of the job. Those who work more exclusively with people aren't necessarily paid more and might be paid less (if they aren't management either for instance - business analysts are working more with people but the pay isn't necessarily any higher).

[bae]

I long for the simpler times when the only ideology corporations needed to worry about was shareholder value.

In 1991, My boss and I were both sent to the week-long boot-camp for sexual harassment issues, gender issues, equal opportunity employment/management practices, and so on.

Which was hilarious. As he, though a vice-president, had only a single employee - me. I had precisely zero employees, I did all my department's work with cleverness and guile.

But, as was explained, even in the early '90s, a single mis-step could cost the shareholders a fortune, so it was advisable to cross all our i's and dot all out t's.

[Alan]

I'm curious if anyone here knows if Damore provided the internal memo to gizmodo or is the "leaker" unknown? The whole thing seems way too scripted to me. Damore had to know what a crap storm this was going to cause.

The crap storm was already in progress. The Dept of Labor has been actively investigating (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/07/google-pay-disparities-women-labor-department-lawsuit)Google and a group of 60 women are currently suing them for discriminatory pay practices (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/08/google-women-discrimination-class-action-lawsuit). I'm guessing lots of people with access to the memo had incentive to leak it.

[LDAHL]

In 1991, My boss and I were both sent to the week-long boot-camp for sexual harassment issues, gender issues, equal opportunity employment/management practices, and so on.

Which was hilarious. As he, though a vice-president, had only a single employee - me. I had precisely zero employees, I did all my department's work with cleverness and guile.

But, as was explained, even in the early '90s, a single mis-step could cost the shareholders a fortune, so it was advisable to cross all our i's and dot all out t's.

Lest you create a hostile work environment for yourself and sue the company?

[bae]

Lest you create a hostile work environment for yourself and sue the company?

They certainly gave us detailed instructions on how to do so!

It came in pretty handy, I will say, at my next company, when my (female) boss refused to let me take my family medical leave time upon the birth of my daughter, and told me I wouldn't have my job if I did... Got to retire a few years early because of that!

[Zoe Girl]

How interesting, today was staff training for the new school year. We are in an urban school district with a diverse student body and staff. Today was all about diversity and inclusivity. I went to sessions on talking about color, gender and one on special needs. I think we do a good job with this really. I feel pretty comfortable talking about things I did not know how to talk about a couple years ago. Sometimes we do not come to an agreement or some feelings are still difficult, but we are trying! Last year I was in the process of hiring a staff who is muslim, one of my staff said directly she would have a problem with her. The candidate ended up getting a different job, but today that staff who had an issue was at staff training with hundreds of people, including staff in hijabs and a sikh staff with a really interesting hat. It is my opinion that we need to increase our willingness and comfort in order to give our kids a good education.

On a totally different note, I had my testy staff person back the first day after summer break. She already is on the edge with her tone. So I would not be pleased to have any of my staff writing a 10 page public statement about policies. There are professional standards for communication, and our department has ways to have these conversations. As someone pointed out in a thread I started, being listened to is not the same as agreeing. Today I was challenged by my staff, I listened and I didn't agree. Maybe this young man had expressed himself and the answer was simply no.