Persistent panhandling with a child

[iris lilies]

You social workers and SJWs care to comment on the following?

In my neighborhood is a woman who panhandles with a child in tow. The little girl is about seven years old. I've seen this duo twice last week, I've seen them before, I distinctly remember seeing them last March on a Sunday when it was a nice day outside.


The last time I saw her, I watched where she was going, I got out of my car walked over to the business where she was headed, and I sat on a bench outside to listen to her spiel which went something like this " can you help me out with something? My daughter is hungry."


Having ascertained that she is in fact panhandling, I called the cops. It is wrong to parade a child around on the streets and as a prop. This is an ongoing gig, it is not a one time emergency request for help.


Comments? I posted this event on our neighborhood chat list and got a couple of responses which were surprisingly calm. No shit storm followed, a surprise for NEXTDoor. In another post I will tell you what I learned about this pair.

[bae]

See, if we had a system of publicly-funded childcare/daycare, this poor woman could work in peace!

[Ultralight]

This is messed up!

[Teacher Terry]

Child abuse plain and simple. States usually have laws on the books about how long a child can be kept out without shelter, food, water, etc. One summer when I lived in Wichita pro-lifers spent the entire summer with their kids outside in hot weather picketing an abortion doctor. Some local businesses went under because customers could not get to them. The next summer they tried that shit in Milwaukee, WI. The cops timed how long the kids were out and then arrested the parents and put the kids in foster homes. Needless to say they left Milwaukee and did not ruin the summer like they had in Wichita.

[iris lilies]

This is messed up!
But not unusual in my neighborhood.

[jp1]

The same thing happens here. There's one woman with one or both of her kids (maybe 4 and 5 years old) that's often near the entrance to the train station. I'm no more inclined to give to them than to anyone else. There's plenty of free food and services here so that no one will go hungry.

[iris lilies]

According to a neighbor who posted on Nextdoor (and took me to task for saying this mom was using her daughter) they live in a homeless shelter, presumably one downtown about a mile from my neighhborhood. The woman brings her child to my neighborhood because we have a nice public park that is safe for her daughter. Accordong to the post, the woman and her daughter are the nicest and most grateful people she knows, and they love dogs! They dont want money. This has been goong on for a couple of years. The woman has an illness and also cancer, and the daughter cant eat wheat or nut products, so that limits what they can get a food pantries. All this courtesy of a post on Nextdoor.

Meanwhile, another neighbor contacted me privately to say, yeah, the woman panhandles for money, he sees them do it. And he had some empathy for the pair until he observed them stealing dog biscuits from a bowl set outside at a restaurant, and they the offered a bIscuit to each dog they met up with. That is their "in" for talking to people on the street, they chat up the dog owner, and a lead in for asking for "something" (i.e. Money.)

It is hard to know what is really going on, but I think its not a bad move to call the police and let them interview this woman and sort it out. Often the police are well acquainted with street people of an area.

Teacher Terry, to your point, I dont know how long she keeps Allie out on the street, but I will say that the days I saw them were nice days, the weather was decent. Not too hot, not too cold. If they are coming from a shelter they may not be able to stay there during the day, but our downtown also has day shelters.

in the world of theft, stealing a few dog biscuits isnt a big deal, not like a shopping cart for instance! Haha.But it is more the routine of it hat bugs ne a little, still, if the little girl likes dogs, it is good entertainment for her to meet and pet dogs.

[iris lilies]

The same thing happens here. There's one woman with one or both of her kids (maybe 4 and 5 years old) that's often near the entrance to the train station. I'm no more inclined to give to them than to anyone else. There's plenty of free food and services here so that no one will go hungry.
In SF the only panhandler I gave money to was a woman who had a cat with ner. She seemed really off to me, but the cat got to me.

[catherine]

I always struggle with panhandlers. I was compelled to give a couple of bucks to someone the other day in LA, but most of the time I don't. When I was traveling into NYC on almost a daily basis with my kids I started packing an extra half sandwich and offering that to panhandlers, until I learned they weren't interested in tuna on rye.

I can't judge the woman with the child because I don't know the story. If she has other resources for survival at the woman's shelter, it does seem exploitative to parade her child around, but poverty forces some choices that none of us would normally make. So I suspend my judgement on those two.

[mamalatte]

My first thought was, what is the mother's alternative? Perhaps since there is no school during summer, she needs to keep the child with her all day? It might be preferable in some ways if she took the girl to the library or park or some other free place (if any), but that's not going to generate any $$. From the facts that you've given us, they seem to be in a pretty hard place and perhaps the mother is doing the best she can at the moment. I feel like I have read several times that many people can make more money "panhandling" than at low-paying entry-level-type jobs, and most such jobs also would not be compatible with the mom watching the girl, assuming she even could work if she has some sort of major illness. So, it kind of feels complicated to me. I feel for the girl and wish she had a better situation, but don't necessarily judge or feel angry at the mother. What did the cops say/do?

[sweetana3]

We have had several situations here. One neighborhood found a family with two preteen girls living under a bridge (very obviously homeless). Long story, gave them all the info to get help and got a counselor involved and the police. Found them shelter and such. Many people worked on this and one many got to know the family. However, there was some issue that prevented the family from showing up and taking advantage. They disappeared. We speculated on what was the reason and felt so bad for the kids but will never know.

We also have a family that panhandles around town at various corners with one or more kids in tow. Talked to the police and they will check and call CPS if necessary but the police told us it is often not productive. In most instances, it is purely a money making effort (like a dog in tow) since those with kids get first priority on help.

Keep written info in your car on services available in your area to hand out. I think you will find that most only want money.

[Zoe Girl]

I pass a dozen homeless persons a day on a regular basis, all singles. I have seen a change over the 8 years I have lived in this are, the people are looking less rough around the edges or permanently homeless. I know that the youth homeless drop-in center lost some funding for the first time in 30 years and has had to shorten hours. I was doing some work there but they were not open enough hours to make it possible.

I have seen one family with teenagers who come to the corner which is also a small convenience store. Most people are not standing on a property like that or affecting a business. I did see a lady get out of her car to talk to them, she looked upset. I don't know everything like in your situation but I almost called someone, by the looks they are either really beat down by life or have some mental challenges as a whole family. I would like to think we have resources in Denver, but with the insane population boom I think people at risk follow the expected prosperity and often get stuck. Still I may have called to make sure they got resources. In our child abuse training we are careful to point out the poverty is not abuse. So a child without a coat in the winter is abuse if parents refuse to get one but not abuse if they need help to get a coat.

[Tammy]

Excellent distinction .... poverty is not abuse.

[iris lilies]

...What did the cops say/do?

the cops didnt get here in time to see the mom/daughter duo, they had moved on to a different street.

[Tybee]

the cops didnt get here in time to see the mom/daughter duo, they had moved on to a different street.
I think it is really good you called. Children are defenseless. I think that sometimes, their needs overrule the parent's needs (to panhandle, to have freedom to wander and panhandle, to be homeless--whatever their situation.) Sometimes a situation needs to be looked into, for the good of the child.

[iris lilies]

I think it is really good you called. Children are defenseless. I think that sometimes, their needs overrule the parent's needs (to panhandle, to have freedom to wander and panhandle, to be homeless--whatever their situation.) Sometimes a situation needs to be looked into, for the good of the child.

Yes, that for sure.

Now for me, the real question is: do I call cops again, when i see them panhandling? Now that I kinda/sorta know a bit about their background, and I kinda/sorta have ascertained that they are not sleeping on the street--do I call to report just the pandhandlong?

I probably will. I am insensitive that way. Bottom line: I do not want panhandlers in my neighborhood. The reason wHY this mom/daughter duo hang out in our park is because it is "safe" (according to the person who knows them.)

Our park is "safe" because concerned and involved citizens like me work to keep the riff raff out.

[JaneV2.0]

As far as I know, panhandling--with or without children--is often a legal activity. Here it is, anyway, as long as you're not aggressive or blocking foot traffic. If mom is making extra money legally, it's likely to help the child.

[bae]

As far as I know, panhandling--with or without children--is often a legal activity.

Yup. Panhandling and vagrancy laws are notoriously difficult to craft without causing Constitutional troubles.


"Those generally implicated by the imprecise terms of the ordinance -- poor people, nonconformists, dissenters, idlers -- may be required to comport themselves according to the lifestyle deemed appropriate by the Jacksonville police and the courts. Where, as here, there are no standards governing the exercise of the discretion granted by the ordinance, the scheme permits and encourages an arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement of the law. It furnishes a convenient tool for "harsh and discriminatory enforcement by local prosecuting officials, against particular groups deemed to merit their displeasure."... It results in a regime in which the poor and the unpopular are permitted to "stand on a public sidewalk... only at the whim of any police officer."

[iris lilies]

As far as I know, panhandling--with or without children--is often a legal activity. Here it is, anyway, as long as you're not aggressive or blocking foot traffic. If mom is making extra money legally, it's likely to help the child.
Yes, agressive panhandling is a problem, but determining what "agressive " is is tricky. But in this case this is not aggressive even if it is predictable, persistent behavior. It isnt as though cops will arrest her even if she was determined to be "aggressively" pamhandling. Arrests do not happen.

Someone moving through our neighborhood panhandling, on the move, not parked in one place, is a very low level public disturbance. But panhandling grows as a problem as more and more people join in. That hasnt happened with her, she doesnt bring friends.

it did happen in a nearby neighborhood with a commercial center, to the point where that neighborhood ( not the city) spent lots of miney putting up collection boxes for people to slip money into. This was supposed to keep them from rewarding panhandlers individually. The money went to institutions that served street people. My neighborhood cant afford that solution, such as it is as a solution.