View Full Version : The north korea problem
This author seems to have a well reasoned solution to dealing with north korea.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/24/how-to-take-down-kim-jong-un-215411
The short version:
-Kim Jong Un is obsessed with getting nukes not because he wants to use them against us, but because he wants to continue to exist and not to become the next Saddam Hussein.
-Work to get more information to the north korean people about life outside their country to foment an eventual resistance.
-Convince the north korean elites that we will support them when they realize the time has come to abandon the regime so that they won't follow Kim into a deadly war that will have no winners.
-Plan for a "tear down this wall" point where the DMZ gets ended and the country reunified, and all that that will entail.
If we had a reasonably politically experienced president from either party I'd feel reasonably confident that things would play out this way in some fashion. I hope there are enough experienced people still hanging on in our government to steer things in some form in the direction of this author's suggestions. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
BikingLady
8-11-17, 4:57am
I am very worried about this situation.
gimmethesimplelife
8-11-17, 7:05am
I am also very worried about this problem. My take is that both Kim Jong Un is not playing with a full deck and neither (though I personally believe to a lesser degree) is Donald Trump. I don't know if either truly understands the potential consequences of their rhetoric. I also don't understand how close (or far away) we may be from nuclear war due to this situation and the personalities involved. It's very scary to me, it really is. I wish I had constructive feedback but I'm just dazed over this and bluffing my way through the motions of life as best I can.
Nuclear was is not something that can be changed or have the risks of lessened by activism in my zip code and on this one I feel truly powerless and I don't like and also resent the feeling. What's good however in a strange way is I feel kinship with people much higher up in social strata - nuclear war would kill us all - it's not going to care about zip codes or social class. It's a bit refreshing to be dealing with something horrible that could potentially happen that is not discriminatory by social class - but that doesn't change the fact that the worst that could happen is unthinkable. Will cooler heads and logic prevail? I don't want to be paranoid or alarmist but I just don't know. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-11-17, 7:07am
I am very worried about this situation.Biker Lady, you and me both. Rob
BikingLady
8-11-17, 8:44am
Ok shame on me, but I have been hitting all news sites often ,really often just to read the headlines to see if....
I have been reading prepper boards once again, because what if...
I try to remind myself that I think there takes more than one person here in the USA to push the button, probably wrong...
Over there who really knows
Sad Eyed Lady
8-11-17, 9:14am
I was a child during the Cuban Missiles Crisis and the cold war with Russia. I was frightened every time a plane went over thinking we would be bombed, and the first time I heard a sonic boom - well I just knew that was it. Children hear the news their parents watch and aren't able to understand everything, so it makes it so scary. Now listening to this, I still don't understand fully or know what to make of it and it is still scary. As someone else pointed out here, hopefully cooler heads and logic will prevail.
Williamsmith
8-11-17, 9:50am
It does make one appreciate Ronald Reagan even more. This is one of those rare cases when you don't know whether to laugh or cry.
The last time it happened to me I was clearing my sidewalk with my brandy spanking new monster snow thrower and ran over the cable used to leash the dog. It tore the auger completely out of the housing.......so instantly I had the dilemma......I layed down on the garage floor and rolled back and forth laughing. Then I cried.
I like the cartoon that depicts Krazy Kim and The Orange Protagonist of Peril both in trench coats with ballistic missiles protruding out like penises. They are each looking at each other comparing who has the biggest one. In the background in a yellow mushroom cloud.
Oh for the simple days of "Duck and cover!"
I hear plenty without even trying to hear it. Really, what can I do about it anyway? I just live my life and recognize what I can't control. As in the serenity prayer.
ToomuchStuff
8-11-17, 10:10am
It does make one appreciate Ronald Reagan even more. This is one of those rare cases when you don't know whether to laugh or cry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFCABnWlN8E
Just shake your head.
Moral of the story - never make a joke about serious matters especially if someone is taping the words said. Some things accidentally recorded by open, very sensitive, mikes have caused embarrassment more recently as well, I am told.
It'd be nice if Congress stepped up and repealed and replaced the War Powers Authorization, and reclaimed their Constitutional mandate...
This craziness makes me very nervous, and makes me want to step up my plans to downsize and move to one of the Lake Champlain islands, where I can always swim to razz's house if all hell breaks loose. You guys up north aren't planning to build a wall anytime soon, are you?
I just hope I am directly in the line of fire and die immediately. We're about 60 miles west of DC so that could happen.
Chicken lady
8-11-17, 4:32pm
Nuclear winter as a solution to global warming...
"some say the world will end in fire
some say ice..."
Robert Frost
This craziness makes me very nervous, and makes me want to step up my plans to downsize and move to one of the Lake Champlain islands, where I can always swim to razz's house if all hell breaks loose. You guys up north aren't planning to build a wall anytime soon, are you?
Come on in. Some people even paddle-boarded across Lake Erie recently. No walls here.
I scanned the article quickly and did not see the word assassination. Couldn't one of our precision weapons hone in on Kim when he's showboating at a parade or something?
Mattis and Tillerson seem to be talking rationally. I wish someone would put some duct tape on Trump's mouth. He's unbelievable.
Oh, look--now he's considering using military force in Venezuela.
He reminds me of a dull-witted child playing with toy soldiers, except somebody may get hurt here.
And he has every reason in the world to divert attention from his money laundering/election fixing/Russian collusion.
gimmethesimplelife
8-11-17, 10:21pm
Oh, look--now he's considering using military force in Venezuela.
He reminds me of a dull-witted child playing with toy soldiers, except somebody may get hurt here.
And he has every reason in the world to divert attention from his money laundering/election fixing/Russian collusion.I just read about the potential military intervention in Venezuela....beam me up Scotty, I'm seeing no signs of intelligent life with this Presidency.......Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-11-17, 10:21pm
Mattis and Tillerson seem to be talking rationally. I wish someone would put some duct tape on Trump's mouth. He's unbelievable.I couldn't have said this any better myself! Rob
And he has every reason in the world to divert attention from his money laundering/election fixing/Russian collusion.
That crossed my mind too.
Kim should realize Trump only cares about his base/America first. I think he would risk a war others have avoided out of concern for South Korean civilian casualties. But Kim is too much of a megalomaniac to get it. I wonder if any of his own people have tried to take him out, or if they will now.
Given that Kim's a mental case all logic might be out, but I've wondered what he could stand to gain by instigating a war or attack? The closest I could come is uniting a broken country against a common, if not invented, enemy.
Obama got some heat for being weak on foreign policy. Even if you take Trump out of the equation the guys driving the bus are more hawkish than we've seen for a while and the our generals seem to have a lot of say in it. That seems to be what the majority of voters wanted, but when it comes down to it becoming reality I wonder if it's a little like the ACA where opinion changes once you get there.
Like someone said, never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
One thing that troubles me - if you remove names and countries out of all the current threats, you really can't tell whether they were made by Kim Jong Un - or Donald Trump.
One thing that troubles me - if you remove names and countries out of all the current threats, you really can't tell whether they were made by Kim Jong Un - or Donald Trump.
Yeah, but he started it.
ToomuchStuff
8-12-17, 8:50am
Given that Kim's a mental case all logic might be out, but I've wondered what he could stand to gain by instigating a war or attack?
How could he instigate a war in a place that we are still at war with? (The Korean war never ended)
BikingLady
8-12-17, 9:18am
I woke up this morning, checked the news, saw we had not bombed or been bombed, so I went running. Crazy to start a day that way:(
Kim Jong Un has been making those pronouncements for some time. Prudent adults ignore him.
Yeah, but he started it.
I was wondering which 'he' in particular was being mentioned. At first, I thought Roger was adding a touch of humour. Has the US not been doing military exercises in the neighbourhood? This whole exercise has a long history behind it going back decades.
China does not want more North Koreans refugees flooding across the border, South Korea doesn't want to lose its progress, Japan doesn't want nuclear in its neighbourhood. The current p!ssing match is very foolish/childish and benefits no one.
I was wondering which 'he' in particular was being mentioned. At first, I thought Roger was adding a touch of humour.
Yes. You know how it is when the fighting kids get sent to the office and they each say, he started it.
Unfortunately it's little more serious then a school yard fight. Some of the talking heads have compared it to the Cuban missile crisis. So far I think it is just bluster and not that serious, but time will tell. There are definitely some new elements in play compared to past and recent history.
I lived in Seoul for a couple of years, along with about 15 million other people. I am thinking these days of my former English students and their children and neighbours and friends.
Oh, look--now he's considering using military force in Venezuela.
He reminds me of a dull-witted child playing with toy soldiers, except somebody may get hurt here.
And he has every reason in the world to divert attention from his money laundering/election fixing/Russian collusion.
I thought what he said was that he wouldn't rule out the use of military force. And why should he? Why deny yourself any options for a future that is impossible to predict?
I would be disappointed in a President who ruled out the use of military force against Canada in any future conflict.
iris lilies
8-13-17, 1:23pm
I thought what he said was that he wouldn't rule out the use of military force. And why should he? Why deny yourself any options for a future that is impossible to predict?
I would be disappointed in a President who ruled out the use of military force against Canada in any future conflict.
Or California. If they become traitorous and secede.
I would be disappointed in a President who ruled out the use of military force against Canada in any future conflict.
We've done so in the past several times.
Or California. If they become traitorous and secede.
There's nothing wrong with contingency planning. A friend of mine who's into wargaming was telling me of a California secession game he plated a few weeks ago. Apparently about two thirds of the State's area is occupied by red state voters, with most of the rebels clustering around a few coastal cities. The game assumed about half the National Guard would swing each way, but personnel at the larger federal military installations would stay loyal. The coastal cities soon had issues with water, power and food as outside supplies were reduced and ports blockaded. Several foreign powers issued protests and sanctions, but had little ability to project meaningful power into the theater. Demonstrations and protests in support of California were sometimes violent but manageable. The economy suffered, and refugees were a problem, but the State was pacified over the course of about three months with relatively little in the way of major engagements.
Or California. If they become traitorous and secede.
I would think Alaska. Remember how Todd Palin was a member of a secessionist party and Sarah attended their convention with her?
There are also separatist movements in Hawaii and Puerto Rico.
There's nothing wrong with contingency planning. A friend of mine who's into wargaming was telling me of a California secession game he plated a few weeks ago. Apparently about two thirds of the State's area is occupied by red state voters, with most of the rebels clustering around a few coastal cities. The game assumed about half the National Guard would swing each way, but personnel at the larger federal military installations would stay loyal. The coastal cities soon had issues with water, power and food as outside supplies were reduced and ports blockaded. Several foreign powers issued protests and sanctions, but had little ability to project meaningful power into the theater. Demonstrations and protests in support of California were sometimes violent but manageable. The economy suffered, and refugees were a problem, but the State was pacified over the course of about three months with relatively little in the way of major engagements.
While that must've been an enjoyable fantasy game I suspect that if we decide to secede we will likely not attempt to do so by taking up our muskets. That was done in the past and shown to be an ineffective method. And that also strikes me as more of a redstate style of secession. All we'll have to do is point out how much more bigly he'll win in 2020 without us and trump will get out his magic executive order pen and proclaim us no longer American.
While that must've been an enjoyable fantasy game I suspect that if we decide to secede we will likely not attempt to do so by taking up our muskets. That was done in the past and shown to be an ineffective method. And that also strikes me as more of a redstate style of secession. All we'll have to do is point out how much more bigly he'll win in 2020 without us and trump will get out his magic executive order pen and proclaim us no longer American.
LDAHL'S post had me getting somewhat depressed; this is much more encouraging. After all, the Left Coast is anything but Trump country--maybe he would just let us slink away. Viva Cascadia!
LDAHL'S post had me getting somewhat depressed; this is much more encouraging. After all, the Left Coast is anything but Trump country--maybe he would just let us slink away. Viva Cascadia!
Yup. I'd sign up for Cascadia in a flash. As long as we draw the line far enough north :-)
While that must've been an enjoyable fantasy game I suspect that if we decide to secede we will likely not attempt to do so by taking up our muskets. That was done in the past and shown to be an ineffective method. And that also strikes me as more of a redstate style of secession. All we'll have to do is point out how much more bigly he'll win in 2020 without us and trump will get out his magic executive order pen and proclaim us no longer American.
I'm trying to think of an example from history where a political entity divested itself of territory simply for being annoying. Apart from the constitutional issues around a US president evicting states by executive order, I think if Trump had that kind of power he would simply partition California into new states for a more congenial electoral situation.
Apart from the constitutional issues around a US president evicting states by executive order, I think if Trump had that kind of power he would simply partition California into new states for a more congenial electoral situation.
True enough. But given trump's obvious lack of concern about the constitution or rule of law generally it wouldn't surprise me if he tried to do it. Especially if someone told him it would make people think he was the Best President Ever by doing so. And it'd certainly be simpler than trying to split the state up, considering that even Fresno, Merced and Stanislaus counties in the heart of the Central Valley, went for Clinton. There's only so much republican electoral chicanery that can be done when almost twice as many people of a given population voted for the democrat.
Williamsmith
8-15-17, 1:09pm
True enough. But given trump's obvious lack of concern about the constitution or rule of law generally it wouldn't surprise me if he tried to do it. Especially if someone told him it would make people think he was the Best President Ever by doing so. And it'd certainly be simpler than trying to split the state up, considering that even Fresno, Merced and Stanislaus counties in the heart of the Central Valley, went for Clinton. There's only so much republican electoral chicanery that can be done when almost twice as many people of a given population voted for the democrat.
I believe God must believe in "Chicanery!" Or the Rust Belt.....not sure which.
I believe God must believe in "Chicanery!" Or the Rust Belt.....not sure which.
As the beer commercial (and beer commercials never lie) says, we're God's Country. Although I would have hoped that God might have looked more favorably on Marco Rubio. I've been reading that Mrs. Clinton is thinking of becoming a Methodist Minister. Maybe that will help close the gap.
The Democrats wouldn't have to lean so heavily on the chicanery excuse if they hadn't lost a thousand state legislative seats since Obama took office.
Actually the dems don't need chicanery. California has a non-partisan redistricting commission. And yet with no chicanery the democrats have 39 congressional seats compared to 14 republicans here. Yes our coastal liberal elite cities are big, but they aren't THAT big. I can only assume that in many other states the chicanery starts low and works its way up. gerrymander the state legislative districts, then once you get your fraudulent state house majority gerrymander the federal congressional districts. As W. would say: Mission accomplished. At least if the mission is to thwart majority rule.
Both the presidency and the senate popular votes in 2016 strongly favored democrats and house republicans only got 51.4% of the popular vote. All the talk of this being a conservative nation is highly bloviated.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/10/democrats-won-popular-vote-senate-too/93598998/
https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/13247/popular-vote-for-the-2016-house-election
If the popular vote for house seats had been equally divided around the country dems would have 211 house seats, not 193. That 18 seat difference is largely the result of republican chicanery.
I am in Maryland, a very blue state, but live in the western area which is ultra red. Our state legislators did the very same kind of gerrymandering to create a voting district that was red and turned it blue by making it a spider shape. I am a democrat and found it an unfair thing to do. So I wonder if it is going on in other blue states, too. Really, isn't there some sensible, mathematical way to divide it so votes reflect people's votes?
Williamsmith
8-16-17, 8:54am
Actually the dems don't need chicanery. California has a non-partisan redistricting commission. And yet with no chicanery the democrats have 39 congressional seats compared to 14 republicans here. Yes our coastal liberal elite cities are big, but they aren't THAT big. I can only assume that in many other states the chicanery starts low and works its way up. gerrymander the state legislative districts, then once you get your fraudulent state house majority gerrymander the federal congressional districts. As W. would say: Mission accomplished. At least if the mission is to thwart majority rule.
Both the presidency and the senate popular votes in 2016 strongly favored democrats and house republicans only got 51.4% of the popular vote. All the talk of this being a conservative nation is highly bloviated.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/10/democrats-won-popular-vote-senate-too/93598998/
https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/13247/popular-vote-for-the-2016-house-election
If the popular vote for house seats had been equally divided around the country dems would have 211 house seats, not 193. That 18 seat difference is largely the result of republican chicanery.
So, your arguements is ...there happen to be a few more of you then there are of us.....and that gives you the right to govern ideologically over the rest of us. What ever happened to representative government? Does it offend you that tiny Rhode Island gets the same representation as big and famous California? Talk of this being a liberal nation is high falutin. What with the Orange One presiding. Oh that's right.....Putin.
There's a column in the New York Times today that speculates on the possibility of civil war (somebody polled some "experts"). Personally, I think that's ridiculous. There was a much higher level of tension and violence fifty years ago than there is today. Maybe it's the alt-media whipping up the gullible over issues like Confederate bric-a-brac, but we seem to get more excited over our differences than the last few generations. We seemed to have moved from "I think we should do this, and here's why" to "As a (insert identity here) I am offended by your position and feel I must silence you".
I think we're still basically a center-right country. Our liberal party is probably to the right of what Europeans would probably consider left wing. People like to talk about taking their ball and going home, but I think most of that can be put down to histrionics.
Williamsmith
8-16-17, 9:59am
There's a column in the New York Times today that speculates on the possibility of civil war (somebody polled some "experts"). Personally, I think that's ridiculous. There was a much higher level of tension and violence fifty years ago than there is today. Maybe it's the alt-media whipping up the gullible over issues like Confederate bric-a-brac, but we seem to get more excited over our differences than the last few generations. We seemed to have moved from "I think we should do this, and here's why" to "As a (insert identity here) I am offended by your position and feel I must silence you".
I think we're still basically a center-right country. Our liberal party is probably to the right of what Europeans would probably consider left wing. People like to talk about taking their ball and going home, but I think most of that can be put down to histrionics.
I agree that the likelihood of civil war is remote. We have a very capable standing army that would restore a semblance of order. I do see a counter arguement though. Although Lincolns inauguration triggered South Carolina to secede...he was articulate and single minded when it came to holding the Union together. Our current Tyrant of Tweet .....not so much. I don't think he could hold a fractious garden club together over disagreements about a watering schedule.
So, your arguements is ...there happen to be a few more of you then there are of us.....and that gives you the right to govern ideologically over the rest of us. What ever happened to representative government? Does it offend you that tiny Rhode Island gets the same representation as big and famous California? Talk of this being a liberal nation is high falutin. What with the Orange One presiding. Oh that's right.....Putin.
I'm all for representative government. Gerrymandering intentionally does just the opposite.
One area where Americans seem to be self-segregating is military service. More and more, the people entering (and staying) in the military are the children of military members. You're seeing more articles lately talking about the formation of a "warrior caste" whose values may not necessarily reflect those of America at large. You have to wonder what their attitude might be toward Utopian separatists in California or Aryan puritans in Idaho. It's hard for me to picture today's officer corps shaking hands and riding off to their respective states as they did in 1860. They might have more in common with one another than be divided by whatever is at issue on some sad future day.
Williamsmith
8-16-17, 11:21am
One area where Americans seem to be self-segregating is military service. More and more, the people entering (and staying) in the military are the children of military members. You're seeing more articles lately talking about the formation of a "warrior caste" whose values may not necessarily reflect those of America at large. You have to wonder what their attitude might be toward Utopian separatists in California or Aryan puritans in Idaho. It's hard for me to picture today's officer corps shaking hands and riding off to their respective states as they did in 1860. They might have more in common with one another than be divided by whatever is at issue on some sad future day.
True, but the Utopian Separatists in California should be careful about uniting against confederate monument protectionists. A review of the history of California and that of San Fransisco in particular would provide ample justification for Mexicans, legal and illegal, documented and documented, to demand many monuments be removed commemorating the rebellious settlers who took Mexican territory from them. Not to mention the offensive state flag depicting the bear ...which was the flag flown by traitorous rebels.
Apparently the North Koreans just lobbed a missile over Japan.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/28/japanese-government-warns-north-korea-missile-headed-toward-northern-japan-report-says.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-japan-missile-over-test-launch-kim-jong-un-trump-latest-news-updates-a7917401.html
Apparently the North Koreans just lobbed a missile over Japan.
This could make a great distraction for another pardon. How about Jared Kushner's dad?
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