View Full Version : Charlottesville
This was my hometown from ages 2 to 4 while my dad attended the University of Virginia. Being so young I remember a few things about it none bad, but my parents have recalled over the years the segregation in student housing, employment options, and the churches, as well as one minister who told the congregation heaven would be segregated.
So I'm not that surprised that things erupted there today. It's sad.
Wondering why so many young men?
Wondering why so many young men?
I'm thinking older men are:
a) less likely to travel across the country to be obnoxious in groups
b) less likely to participate in Twitter/Facebook/... echo chambers that encourage them to do so
c) less likely to look good in snazzy Nazi outfits
d) more likely to have family, jobs, and responsibilities they don't want to screw up by play-acting
Williamsmith
8-12-17, 8:58pm
At the risk of being shunned, let me first say what is unnecessary to say....today's events as I have read about them are truly disgusting. But not historic at all.
I ask though, does the Constitutional protections for dissent only apply to segments of our society or can someone or group however wrong minded be permitted to express their beliefs without being attacked? Peaceful protest, agreed.
The nexus of this is the decision to remove statues representative of prominent figures of the Confederacy. Robert E. Lee was a revered and quite honorable statesman of Virginia and fought not to preserve slavery but for Virginia. These were "men of their times."
How can we be for the selective tidying up of history? Nine of our first twelve Presidents were slave holders. Should we remove all references to them? Washington? Jefferson? Jackson?
Is it surprising that certain elements of society would be inflamed to anger over the purging of historic monuments? Should we clear Gettysburg Battlefield of all references to the Confederacy?
Removing these statues and placing them in some kind of rogues gallery museum has been suggested. I would hope we are sophisticated enough to interpret history in the right context without selectively censoring it.
I would hope we are sophisticated enough to interpret history in the right context without selectively censoring it.I fear that ability has been lost forever.
I ask though, does the Constitutional protections for dissent only apply to segments of our society or can someone or group however wrong minded be permitted to express their beliefs without being attacked? Peaceful protest, agreed.
I believe the Supreme Court weighed in on that quite some time ago:
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/432/43.html
The ACLU took quite a bit of heat over that one:
https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie
iris lilies
8-12-17, 10:48pm
Erasing history has gone to absurd lengths:
http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2017/07/lynch_elementary_schools_will.html
the tl;dr is a family named Lynch gave land years ago for several schools to be built in Oregon. Now that school board, apprehensive of the charged nature of the word "lynch," will be changing the names of the schools.
Alrighty then.
ToomuchStuff
8-13-17, 1:39am
I fear that ability has been lost forever.
When only researchers and historians are capable of context, it makes me remember the quote: Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
The ACLU took quite a bit of heat over that one:
https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie
Which brings this to mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ukFAvYP3UU
So take the statues, and don't allow the flags the soldiers fought under on their graves, the next step will be removing info from their headstones; eventually, history starts getting whitewashed, and we will start trying to force other countries to hide their pasts.
I've been down that discussion with my family after discussing one sibling who can't stand to watch black and white shows we all would remember from our childhood. It turned into a discussion about people we watched and how things they said/did/etc. wouldn't be tolerated today, but was common in those times. Large names like Bob Hope.
I think it is best to understand history, we don't have to think the same would happen today, that is not agreeing with it (where I think people get confused).
Can you think of any other countries that have statues or monuments to the losing side in a civil war of theirs?
Washington, Jefferson, Jackson et al are not known for treason. Lee was.
To quote the bumper sticker, "You lost 150 years ago. Get over it."
It's the Civil War, or as I saw on a monument in a town near me, The War of the Rebellion. It's not The War Between the States. It was long and bloody and not some genteel disagreement led by the honorable man of his times Lee. It was about slavery from the get go. People knew that because of events in Bleeding Kansas.
When my dad was at UVA the professors said that Thomas Jefferson couldn't have had sex with Sally Hemings because he was too honorable a man. It must have been a male relative of his with similar DNA. There's a long history of denial of facts in the South using the cloak of supposed honor.
I have driven past signs to the Stonewall Jackson Shrine in Virginia. We have shrines up north, for example La Salette. They are for God, not people, certainly not traitors.
And the other side that doesn't carry our flag but an anarchist banner are anything but patriotic themselves. Sad on both sides.
flowerseverywhere
8-13-17, 7:25am
What will change this ugly white supremacy attitude?
I don't know, but I just read several articles at Fox, NYT, and CNN and their comments. The hate that some people write in their comments is breathtaking, and I mean that in the worse way.
we travel a lot. Go through any rural area of the south and you will see gigantic confederate flags flying in front of houses or on poles in pick up trucks. I don't understand what the purpose is? Maybe someone can enlighten me.
I can understand both sides of the controversy of statues of Lee, for instance, but I am not sure what the solution is. I do know large groups of white men chanting anti-Jew and anti-black slogans is despicable and shameful. The craziest thing is Trump not condemning them when his own daughter, son in law and grandchildren are Jewish. But they live their lives with guards, in secure facilities and transportation. And he has to placate Miller and Bannon and pander to his base.
The revision of history is going on world -wide. People who changed the access to education for the masses who had limited opportunities before but were reflecting the thinking of their era had schools named after them. to honour their contribution to the good of all. They also instituted abusive practices and schooling taking aboriginal children from their families - those children belonged nowhere as a result caught between two civilizations. The names of the schools are now being changed.
Russia is rewriting the history cleansing the story of Stalin and his terrible abuse of the population.
May I suggest that one not confuse two separate issues.
There is the deliberate attack of a definite thought or belief - white supremacy opposed to freedom of thought and equality of all citizens, governing action. That results in terrorism and terrorist acts. That leads to murder of innocents in their own church and campaigns promoting that belief as acceptable and tolerated in one's society That is unacceptable and must be opposed vigorously.
Then there is the revision of history. There needs to be a discussion and review of the legality, the impact and need for change. There is the legal process for all of that as Bae indicated in his links.
Don't blur the line between the two totally separate issues.
ETA - think about a fox and a chicken. Should they be equally free to move, live and have their being? Absolutely! Are their life's agendas totally compatible? But if the fox marches into the chicken house and asserts its demands on the chickens' space, boundaries are needed and must be enforced at the highest level, IMHO anyway.
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace
One thing I love about Buddhism is the concept of non-clinging. "Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. [They] are guiding means; they are not absolute truth." (Thich Nhat Hanh)
The sectarianism we are seeing this weekend is dangerous and scary. Senseless violence.
This article talks about Lee, and why he is not an honorable man or deserving of a statue:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/
A person's character is most clearly revealed not by how they treat their equals or superiors, but their subordinates.
Washington, Jefferson, Jackson et al are not known for treason. Lee was.
To quote the bumper sticker, "You lost 150 years ago. Get over it."
.
I think it could be argued that this is a revisionist outlook. In the context of the times, the States believed the Union was a compact between the States to create a Federal government to represent their collective interests. Those States who eventually decided the Union was no longer representing them effectively saw secession as a logical and reasonable response. It became treason after the fact.
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace.
To follow that to a logical conclusion, do you ever wonder why the Federal Government continues to allow the States to exist?
It's a pity we didn't let them secede.
This pathetic need to assert superiority because of race or ethnic background--and backing it up with violence--is an absolute admission of inferiority, IMO.
Trump's "all sides" comment was probably written for him by a Fox staffer. I bet Bannon, Gorka, and Miller were beside themselves with glee. Disgusting.
Trump's "all sides" comment was probably written for him by a Fox staffer. I bet Bannon, Gorka, and Miller were beside themselves with glee. Disgusting.
Indeed. That pathetic coward is perfectly capable of string together the words radical Islamic terrorism, so I know he has at least enough mental accuity to have uttered the words white nationalism. But since these dicks were a key part of his base he won't call out their behavior. the plausible deniability that his non-racist supporters weilded during the campaign is no longer believable.
Williamsmith
8-13-17, 10:02am
In order the understand the response by some to the removal of Confederate statues, you must be willing to read the perspective defined by the naming of the war....."The War of Northern Agression."
As far as the unrest and protests.......not all people are really who they say they are....and many are paid or sponsored by political entities.
So you're saying democrats staged a nazi rally to make trump look bad? Unbelieavable
I liked the Charlottesville city manager's comments at the news conference yesterday. Instead of blaming outside agitators, he asked people to reach across divides and get to know people of different backgrounds.
In order the understand the response by some to the removal of Confederate statues, you must be willing to read the perspective defined by the naming of the war....."The War of Northern Agression.".
The Confederates fired first at Fort Sumter.
ToomuchStuff
8-13-17, 10:24am
So you're saying democrats staged a nazi rally to make trump look bad? Unbelieavable
Did he say that, or is that your supposition? Remember this thread and who it turned out to be was not who people were expecting:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?14673-All-the-Attacks-on-Jewish-Places&highlight=cemetary
You need evidence to know who is behind it. I expect some of these people are what we consider ignorant, some are professional protester types, and some would go there just to watch for stuff burning. I've known too many people that were in the military, and would defend any of these peoples rights to say stuff they wouldn't want their kids to hear, but would not defend violent actions.
Thought policing doesn't work as only individuals change themselves.
We are seeing here the fruits of identity politics. Mindless tribalism centered around pulling down or defending each others' symbols. If history is truly "the set of lies we agree upon", then I suppose it makes a certain kind of sense. And not just at the street thug level. There are entire academic disciplines that aim at reinterpreting history to fit some ideological template. Was Marse Robert a chivalrous defender of his homeland or a sword of oppression? I'm inclined to the later view myself, although I'm sure he'll keep the iconoclasts and hagiographers busy for centuries. That being said, if they want statues of Stonewall Jackson in Richmond or of Lenin in Seattle, I'm not particularly moved to violent anger either way. That requires a certain kind of thinking (or perhaps of feeling).
Should outraged people be demanding the destruction of Napoleon's Tomb? The Brandenburg Gate? The statues of Havelock or Clive or Napier in Trafalgar Square? Does Europe have the right attitude here in recognizing history for all its bloody-handedness? In Milwaukee, not a very old city by world standards, we have monuments to Leif the Lucky, Erastus B. Wolcott, Douglas Macarthur, the Fonz, Abraham Lincoln, Pere Marquette, von Steuben, Gandhi and assorted other notables who I'm sure must have offended someone at some point.
None of this seems worth fighting or killing over. Washington and Jefferson committed treason and won. Lee and Jackson committed treason and lost. History is what it is, and doesn't much care about the changing value judgments of future generations.
Washington and Jefferson committed treason and won. Lee and Jackson committed treason and lost.
Do they have statues of Washington and Jefferson in England?
I have no problem with peaceful demonstrations, whether I agree with them or not; speaking out is a right we all still have. I have a big problem with someone purposefully driving their vehicle as fast as possible into a crowd of people they don't agree with. That he has been charged with only 2nd degree murder, and for a fraction of the mayhem he caused, is perplexing to me.
Governor McAuliffe said what Trump should have--there is no place for Nazis, Neo-Nazis, White Nationalists, etc. here. We've been a pluralistic society since the Pilgrims sat down to Thanksgiving dinner with the "Indians."
Did he say that, or is that your supposition? Remember this thread and who it turned out to be was not who people were expecting:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?14673-All-the-Attacks-on-Jewish-Places&highlight=cemetary
You need evidence to know who is behind it. I expect some of these people are what we consider ignorant, some are professional protester types, and some would go there just to watch for stuff burning. I've known too many people that were in the military, and would defend any of these peoples rights to say stuff they wouldn't want their kids to hear, but would not defend violent actions.
Thought policing doesn't work as only individuals change themselves.
But that thread involved one person doing something. Charlottesville was most certainly not one fake nazi trying to stir up trouble. It was a lot of real nazis. And sure, they have a right to say whatever stupid shit they want. And I have the right to call them assholes and the president a coward for not calling them out by name with his deflective "all sides" idiocy. Bottom line is he needed the racist thug vote to get elected and actively courted them in his campaign.
Do they have statues of Washington and Jefferson in England?
No. Trophies for losers is an American phenomenon.
Do they have statues of Washington and Jefferson in England?
Yes.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/299801095/
ToomuchStuff
8-13-17, 10:46am
Bottom line is he needed the racist thug vote to get elected and actively courted them in his campaign.
And????
He needed the same thing that Hillary, or any of the other candidates needed. Enough votes from the electorate. We don't have a system for us who think none of the candidates were good.
But that is separate from violence over a statue I think.
Do they have statues of Washington and Jefferson in England?
Yes. At least with regard to Washington.
https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/george-washington-in-trafalgar-square/
No. Trophies for losers is an American phenomenon.
Nonsense. Napoleon lost. William Wallace lost. Any number of fondly remembered losers have their monuments.
iris lily
8-13-17, 10:58am
Yes. At least with regard to Washington.
https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/george-washington-in-trafalgar-square/
Dude, you beat me to it.:)
We have one of these Houdin statues of Washington in my neighborhood park just two blocks from me. We all spend our own money to maintain and preserve it, the city cannot afford to take care of statuary. The latest fix up of George was to recast and install his walking stick.
I vaguely remembered that there was one of these statues (there are six in the world) in Europe, but i was thinking it was in France. Glad to see it is promenantly placed in London.
1863
ApatheticNoMore
8-13-17, 10:58am
Can we even say the statues were historical and should remain for that reason without knowing the historical background of why and when they were put up? I don't think so. Some statues that I've read about being taken down were put up in fairly modern times (at least into the 20th century) for explicitly racist reasons by explicitly racist groups. So their whole purpose was divisiveness. Not that the statue really had that much to do with it, you don't have those types of rally because you are concerned about historical preservation.
Peaceful protest it wasn't, and not just in some vague way of some alleged violence who knew who it came from etc.., I mean groups were literally fighting each other in the streets, while the cops did not interfere. Trump is an idiot but it seems to me there was a heck of a lot of stuff being managed badly by the local law enforcement that is a lot more immediately relevant. Outside agitators there may have been, possibly on all sides, but note some people are so quick to charge that the counter-protestors were outside agitators but the white power folks were natives. If true it wouldn't say much good at all, so the racists are all natives? Uh congrats ....
And????
He needed the same thing that Hillary, or any of the other candidates needed. Enough votes from the electorate. We don't have a system for us who think none of the candidates were good.
But that is separate from violence over a statue I think.
And, if the racist thug vote weren't enough, he had the Russian hacker vote to push him across the finish line.
iris lily
8-13-17, 11:02am
Lets see, Air B n B can cut off business from people whose ideology they dont like, but bakers have to serve people whose idealogy they dont like.
That doesnt seem consistent to me.
ApatheticNoMore
8-13-17, 11:03am
there is no evidence of any voting machines being hacked by Russians.
And????
He needed the same thing that Hillary, or any of the other candidates needed. Enough votes from the electorate. We don't have a system for us who think none of the candidates were good.
But that is separate from violence over a statue I think.
And he actively courted their vote and now he won't call their behavior unacceptable because they are his most reliable supporters. Without them he doesn't have many left.
ToomuchStuff
8-13-17, 11:12am
there is no evidence of any voting machines being hacked by Russians.
Who needs evidence? Emotion doesn't, maybe they could use that schools name and form a "Lynch" mob.>8)
And he actively courted their vote and now he won't call their behavior unacceptable because they are his most reliable supporters. Without them he doesn't have many left.
So? How many presidents needed popularity while in office? That to me seems to be more about after office and the value of speaking/book deals, etc.
I learned something today about the Washington statues. Thank you. I stlll wouldn't want one of Lee in my city, and I liked seeing those of Communist dictators and Saddam Hussein get toppled.
Who needs evidence? Emotion doesn't, maybe they could use that schools name and form a "Lynch" mob.>8)
So? How many presidents needed popularity while in office? That to me seems to be more about after office and the value of speaking/book deals, etc.
So it doesn't bother you that we have a white nationalist president?
Do they have statues of Washington and Jefferson in England?There's a statute of Washington in Trafalgar Square. The story goes that since George Washington once said he'd never stand on English ground, the statue stands on soil imported from America.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/e6/ec/77e6eca86bcc9a134031eef21cbbb3be.jpg
there is no evidence of any voting machines being hacked by Russians.
The Washington Post did an analysis. Detroit voting records seem murky. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/06/were-2016-vote-counts-in-michigan-and-wisconsin-hacked-we-double-checked/?utm_term=.0b344285968e Otherwise, there's no direct evidence. I remain suspicious.
I remain suspicious.
Why do you remain suspicious?
Teacher Terry
8-13-17, 2:21pm
Trump decided to court ignorant, racist people so he will not call them out now. He needs his voter base. Ugh!
Why do you remain suspicious?
Because a lot of our polling places/voter machines can be easily flipped, and Russia is well-known for interfering in other countries' political affairs.
We need to go back to traceable universal paper ballots, IMO.
Russia has a long history with der Gropenfuhrer...
flowerseverywhere
8-13-17, 2:41pm
Lets see, Air B n B can cut off business from people whose ideology they dont like, but bakers have to serve people whose idealogy they dont like.
That doesnt seem consistent to me.
The difference is in the groups. One is a hate group that wants to get rid of and suppress those of specific race, color or religions.
The other group is asking for a wedding cake to celebrate love and commitment. How does the concept of being lbgtq hurt anyone. They are not telling anyone they should be lgbtq by asking to bake a cake .
Lets see, Air B n B can cut off business from people whose ideology they dont like, but bakers have to serve people whose idealogy they dont like.
That doesnt seem consistent to me.
I have no idea what this is in reference to, but off the top of my head I'd be willing to provide more latitude of choice to accept/decline customers when the business is that of someone having people come stay in their home. Now if the baker regularly invites their clients for a sleepover (perhaps some do this to get to know the customer better before they are willing to bestow them with the blessing of a wedding cake) maybe I'd understand their reticence at serving a gay couple.
edited to add:
Ah, now I see the story. I also suppose we'll see over the coming weeks a story of at least one butt-hurt american nazi who was recognized from all the photos* and gets fired.
*nazi pro-tip, wear a hood to avoid being identified
To follow that to a logical conclusion, do you ever wonder why the Federal Government continues to allow the States to exist?
No, because I don't cling to an identity as a New Jersayan, and I don't think many people have that kind of fealty to their states. Maybe there are Texans who would fight to remain Texans, and Iowans who would fight to remain Iowans, but generally we aren't defined by the state we live in. It's true that there are different cultures that define some broad regions. A Northeasterner is going to be culturally different from a Southerner, but I still think it's our country that defines who we are more than our state. In general, I'm very suspicious of nationalism. I know you fought for our country, Alan, as did my husband, and I am very grateful. But clinging to our labels or dogmas and then defending them with violence is a sad waste.
Men in my family traditionally did their military duty without complaint or seeking deferments. All the same, I feel more loyalty to my neck of the PNW woods than I do to the increasingly dysfunctional "United" States.
Men in my family traditionally did their military duty without complaint or seeking deferments. All the same, I feel more loyalty to my neck of the PNW woods than I do to the increasingly dysfunctional "United" States.
+1
I have no problem with peaceful demonstrations, whether I agree with them or not; speaking out is a right we all still have. I have a big problem with someone purposefully driving their vehicle as fast as possible into a crowd of people they don't agree with. That he has been charged with only 2nd degree murder, and for a fraction of the mayhem he caused, is perplexing to me.
Governor McAuliffe said what Trump should have--there is no place for Nazis, Neo-Nazis, White Nationalists, etc. here. We've been a pluralistic society since the Pilgrims sat down to Thanksgiving dinner with the "Indians."
So he's OK with antifa and black lives matter?
The Washington Post did an analysis. Detroit voting records seem murky. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/06/were-2016-vote-counts-in-michigan-and-wisconsin-hacked-we-double-checked/?utm_term=.0b344285968e Otherwise, there's no direct evidence. I remain suspicious.
more votes than voters. 95%" to Hillary. 3% to Trump. Damn Russians.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2016/12/18/detroit-ballots-vote-recount-election-stein/95570866/
Men in my family traditionally did their military duty without complaint or seeking deferments. All the same, I feel more loyalty to my neck of the PNW woods than I do to the increasingly dysfunctional "United" States.
I suspect General Lee and others of his era felt the same. Be careful in these times you're not considered guilty of treason and erased from history.
Oh Lee will not be erased from history any more than Hitler. But you don't find statues of the Fuhrer in Germany.
This fixation on self-esteem, where even 150 years after the fact losers must be coddled, and told that the enslavement and brutalization of millions of hunan beings for which they fought, somehow had some salvageable honor to it, is pathetic.
iris lilies
8-13-17, 4:34pm
The difference is in the groups. One is a hate group that wants to get rid of and suppress those of specific race, color or religions.
The other group is asking for a wedding cake to celebrate love and commitment. How does the concept of being lbgtq hurt anyone. They are not telling anyone they should be lgbtq by asking to bake a cake .
yes, I understand that one is Good and one is Bad.
I should have been more clear. I was referring to a legal requirement that a business must give service to someone who holds an ideology disliked by the business owner. It is the legal requirement that is the problem.
The Supreme Court is hearing the baker's case sometime soon, and I hope even Ruth Bader Ginsburg would not agree with your statement as a legal argument, but then who knows what she will come up with, I suppose anything to support the Good while sacrificing constitutional principle is ok.
Oh Lee will not be erased from history any more than Hitler. But you don't find statues of the Fuhrer in Germany.
This fixation on self-esteem, where even 150 years after the fact losers must be coddled, and told that the enslavement and brutalization of millions of hunan beings for which they fought, somehow had some salvageable honor to it, is pathetic.
Here is an interesting op-ed piece in the Times, which relates to what you said Yppej: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opinion/charlottesville-and-the-bigotocracy.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
The bigotocracy is angry that slavery is seen as this nation’s original sin. And yet they remain depressingly and purposefully ignorant of what slavery was, how it happened, what it did to us, how it shaped race and the air and space between white and black folk, and the life and arc of white and black cultures.
If our Native American friends are right, and it takes 7 generations to erase the "original sin" of our fathers, we still have roughly 50 years to go before we work all this out.
When my kids were very small, I went with my DH on one of. his sales calls to Charlotte, NC. We were in the hotel elevator with an older white gentleman. We went up one floor, door opened, and a black family walked on. We went up one more floor, and that same black family walked off. The door closed, and the white gentleman said to us (within earshot of my young children, of course): "Glad that stench is gone. I don't just hate n---s, I despise them."
I have never forgotten that. I know that racism is sometimes more hidden in places like New York than NC but still. I was flabbergasted. He was talking to total strangers, assuming we would agree with him because we were white. I don't know what might have pumped him up with that kind of hate in his life, but it's just a horrible waste of energy,
I suspect General Lee and others of his era felt the same. Be careful in these times you're not considered guilty of treason and erased from history.
And my commemorative statue toppled...
yes, I understand that one is Good and one is Bad.
I should have been more clear. I was referring to a legal requirement that a business must give service to someone who holds an ideology disliked by the business owner. It is the legal requirement that is the problem.
The Supreme Court is hearing the baker's case sometime soon, and I hope even Ruth Bader Ginsburg would not agree with your statement as a legal argument, but then who knows what she will come up with, I suppose anything to support the Good while sacrificing constitutional principle is ok.
Being gay or transgendered doesn't qualify as an ideology, so refusing to provide a wedding cake is more like refusing counter service to people of color. Personally, I'd take my business elsewhere and broadcast the baker's bigotry among my friends, but it makes a good test case...
Teacher Terry
8-13-17, 5:08pm
I won't shop at Hobby Lobby because they don't want to provide birth control through their insurance to their employees. If you run a business you don't get to choose your customers.
yes, I understand that one is Good and one is Bad.
I should have been more clear. I was referring to a legal requirement that a business must give service to someone who holds an ideology disliked by the business owner. It is the legal requirement that is the problem.
The Supreme Court is hearing the baker's case sometime soon, and I hope even Ruth Bader Ginsburg would not agree with your statement as a legal argument, but then who knows what she will come up with, I suppose anything to support the Good while sacrificing constitutional principle is ok.
So you think the supremes made the wrong decision in Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States?
I won't shop at Hobby Lobby because they don't want to provide birth control through their insurance to their employees. If you run a business you don't get to choose your customers.
I support your decision to conduct your daily business according to your values but wonder why you reserve some rights to yourself and not to others.
Teacher Terry
8-13-17, 6:44pm
Alan, as a consumer of services I can certainly choose who to patronize but as a business owner absolutely not. When my parents had a small summer resort they did not discriminate. If you wanted to rent a cabin great.
Alan, as a consumer of services I can certainly choose who to patronize but as a business owner absolutely not. Are all those 'No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service' signs illegal?
Are all those 'No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service' signs illegal?
That was a sanitation issue for public health standards not a personal choice.
That was a sanitation issue for public health standards not a personal choice.
Also, it applies to everyone.
iris lilies
8-13-17, 7:34pm
Being gay or transgendered doesn't qualify as an ideology, so refusing to provide a wedding cake is more like refusing counter service to people of color. Personally, I'd take my business elsewhere and broadcast the baker's bigotry among my friends, but it makes a good test case...
So, you think the same baker would make a cake for ME knowing that I ordered it for my friends' wedding (two gay men) even though he just turned down the same gay men for the same service? I think he would turn down my business as well, and that is not discriminating against me, it is refusing to support an ideology.
But we wont know if he would refuse my business because this is a theoretical, we will never know.
Also, if the same baker who refused to provide a wedding cake for my friends' wedding was happy to sell them bagels, he is not discriminating against them but is protesting an idea.
iris lilies
8-13-17, 8:07pm
So you think the supremes made the wrong decision in Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States?
I dont know! i will have to look it up, will let you know.
This whole discussion started because some people complained that their heroes were not being treated fairly. Their approach was highly questionable, avoidable and caused unnecessary deaths. That is what is considered as local terrorism.
The question that comes to my mind is:
Since most statues of the past or public recognition were of people who are products of their era, typical flawed human beings;
since most were men creating policies and governments which were patriarchal and discriminatory against more than 50% of the population;
since society has now somewhat evolved to recognize that women, those of colour, the indigenous and others are now legally and legitimately part of todays society;
what do you suggest to manage those who wish to return to the past era and hold these flawed but important leaders of their time up as an example to follow today?
So, you think the same baker would make a cake for ME knowing that I ordered it for my friends' wedding (two gay men) even though he just turned down the same gay men for the same service? I think he would turn down my business as well, and that is not discriminating against me, it is refusing to support an ideology.
But we wont know if he would refuse my business because this is a theoretical, we will never know.
Also, if the same baker who refused to provide a wedding cake for my friends' wedding was happy to sell them bagels, he is not discriminating against them but is protesting an idea.
How is participating in a legal contract--or for that matter, an informal one--an "ideology?" It is clear to me that the one with the (narrow, rigid) ideology is the baker. And I defy him or her to find anything Jesus said on the matter. It seems many ideologues pick and choose which of their doctrinal hills to die on. Not many seem to be railing at the money-changers, for example.
Williamsmith
8-13-17, 8:20pm
I'm not defending white supremacist groups, neo Nazis or militias for that matter. My barracks was targeted for bombing by a militia group. My good fortune and by proxy the rest of my fellow officers were spared because I successfully investigated the murder of the granddaughter of the group leader which resulted in a conviction. The timing of it all was quite incidental but perhaps not ........if you believe in those things.
No, I am defending a principle. It is ironic that those who arrayed against the white supremacists sought to suppress their views by force. Which is exactly the way one might define a facist in the first place. State censorship based on viewpoint is extremely misguided. Perhaps the most important groups that should be defended are such disgusting hate mongers. If they can be free to speak...then none of the very valuable opinions of others will ever be encroached upon.
ThIs time around you may identify with the suppression of this speech and censorship. The next time around it may be your own and it will be that fact which makes it easier for authorities to oppress you later.
Whether the President has created a fertile ground for hate groups to embolden themselves....that is a worthy discussion. I don't choose to see a Russian under every bed or hacking every computer but you are free to.
If you can't see that both parties are politicizing a tragedy and the necessity of shielding yourself from propaganda...then you will not be able to participate in level headed debate.
This whole discussion started because some people complained that their heroes were not being treated fairly. Their approach was highly questionable, avoidable and caused unnecessary deaths. That is what is considered as local terrorism.
The question that comes to my mind is:
Since most statues of the past or public recognition were of people who are products of their era, typical flawed human beings;
since most were men creating policies and governments which were patriarchal and discriminatory against more than 50% of the population;
since society has now somewhat evolved to recognize that women, those of colour, the indigenous and others are now legally and legitimately part of todays society;
what do you suggest to manage those who wish to return to the past era and hold these flawed but important leaders of their time up as an example to follow today?
I know! Let's have a theme park for our "heroes" who have become passe'. Put 'em all in one place. Venerate them all you like. Or, alternatively, stash their statues in out of the way places. Maybe we could have one in Fremont, down the street from Lenin.
I think this weekend's toxic shenanigans had very little to do with Robert E Lee, and everything to do with the opportunity to spew hatred openly. It must have been exhilarating for those who have been forced to stifle themselves the last twenty or thirty years or be thought socially out of step. They're back in vogue now, thanks to Trump, Bannon, Gorka, and Miller.
It's important to know who your enemy is, so I'm all for these throwbacks speaking their piece. And openly.
I agree that counter-protesters should have sat on their hands until they had to defend themselves. I suspect the great majority of them did
Time will tell how deeply Russia insinuated itself into our election process. If indeed an investigation is even done.
iris lilies
8-13-17, 8:37pm
How is participating in a legal contract--or for that matter, an informal one--an "ideology?" It is clear to me that the one with the (narrow, rigid) ideology is the baker. And I defy him or her to find anything Jesus said on the matter. It seems many ideologues pick and choose which of their doctrinal hills to die on. Not many seem to be railing at the money-changers, for example.
I cant tell if you really dont understand or ? It is an idealolgy that same sex persons should have the same freedom to marry as heterosexual couples have. Our legal environment in the U.S. allows the baker to disagree. He may state his disagreement out loud and the brownshirts wont cart him off. Will the Supreme court allow him to express his disagreement by turning down business? We shall see.
It may be "rigid idealogy "and Bad, but that isnt the issue I am arguing, it is the issue for f his legal right.
and I think you are absolutely right that shining sun on unaccaeptable acts is the best thing for society.
There is an interesting discussion to be had about just how much you want to ret-con the past to make it conform to today's standards, or to punish old dead people for the crimes of their time.
My daughter's university had a big broo-ha-ha the past several years over Woodrow Wilson, who was a previous President of the University, and had some things on campus honoring his horrible memory and actions.
https://www.princeton.edu/vpsec/trustees/Wilson-Committee-Report-Final.pdf
My daughter's university had a big broo-ha-ha the past several years over Woodrow Wilson, who was a previous President of the University, and had some things on campus honoring his horrible memory and actions.
https://www.princeton.edu/vpsec/trustees/Wilson-Committee-Report-Final.pdf
I remember that. For the record, I concur with the University's recommendation.
iris lilies
8-13-17, 9:07pm
I don't think that historical markers, statues, monuments to earlier times, and etc. need to go on and on and on. They don't need to live on forever, contemporary circumstances can render them irrelevant or useless.
The public schools in Oregon that are all called Lynch could change their name and I wouldn't care because, as a school board member said, the school system doesn't even own that Lynch donated land anymore. Maybe they want to honor Barack Obama and name schools after him. OK, whatever.But that is not what happened, the schools were renamed to get rid of the word Lynch. That is the sole reason they were renamed. And that is just ridiculous.
what do you suggest to manage those who wish to return to the past era and hold these flawed but important leaders of their time up as an example to follow today?
Deprogramming. Awareness and monitoring. The mother of this weekend's killer had no idea he had Nazi sympathies though one of his former teachers did.
It is ironic that those who arrayed against the white supremacists sought to suppress their views by force.
It's the white supremacists who want their protests to start a violent race war - e.g. Dylan Roof. Nikki Haley got it right when she got rid of the Confederate flag.
I think this weekend's toxic shenanigans had very little to do with Robert E Lee, and everything to do with the opportunity to spew hatred openly.
AM Joy? I can't recall exactly which commentator, was saying on TV today that some of these statues were erected not in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, when it would have been seen as treasonous, but during the Sixties to send an anti-Civil Rights message.
Deprogramming. Awareness and monitoring.
Chairman Mao would be proud.
Chairman Mao would be proud.
You're assuming this is by the government. I was writing about family members. As a mother I would have a very hard time forgiving myself for not being aware that something was so amiss in my son's life that he would try to murder dozens of people.
I cant tell if you really dont understand or ? It is an idealolgy that same sex persons should have the same freedom to marry as heterosexual couples have. Our legal environment in the U.S. allows the baker to disagree. He may state his disagreement out loud and the brownshirts wont cart him off. Will the Supreme court allow him to express his disagreement by turning down business? We shall see.
It may be "rigid idealogy "and Bad, but that isnt the issue I am arguing, it is the issue for f his legal right.
and I think you are absolutely right that shining sun on unaccaeptable acts is the best thing for society.
At this point in time, the right of same-sex couples to marry is not an "ideology," it is the law of the land. Capitalism is an ideology.
At this point in time, the right of same-sex couples to marry is not an "ideology," it is the law of the land. Capitalism is an ideology.
Indeed. And at one point in the past allowing interracial couples to marry was an ideology too. And the arguments against that "ideology" were remarkably similar to the ones trotted out before same sex marriage became the law of the land.
iris lilies
8-13-17, 10:13pm
AM Joy? I can't recall exactly which commentator, was saying on TV today that some of these statues were erected not in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, when it would have been seen as treasonous, but during the Sixties to send an anti-Civil Rights message.
My city's monument to the war between the states was erected in 1912 by the Daughters of the Confederacy. About that time veterans from that war would've been dying off like flies due to old age and I'm sure that had something to do with daughters literally honoring their (dying off) fathers.
That monument, after much ballyhoo, was removed last month. It found a home in the Civil War Museum here. I think that is a good place for it.
So no, here our monument wasnt making a statement about the civil rights movement.
Williamsmith
8-13-17, 10:46pm
We have a lot of work ahead of us if we are to rid this country of every trace of anything that honors the Confederacy. We've got statues to tear down, buildings to rename, parks to clear, battlefields to remove from the National Park Service, roads to rename, laws to change, people to round up who fly the confederate flag and arrests to be made for anyone spouting out secessionist propaganda. We've got to build interment camps, deprogramming work gettos and gulags. If we are to purge this terrible history from our nation so that no one will ever know what evil existed and there will be not the slightest evidence of it......we need to get to work now!
iris lilies
8-13-17, 10:57pm
So you think the supremes made the wrong decision in Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States?
That was the right thing.:)
Williamsmith
8-13-17, 10:59pm
Or in other words, If the KKK shows up for a hate parade and there's nobody there to hear their hate speech......was anyone offended?
We have a lot of work ahead of us if we are to rid this country of every trace of anything that honors the Confederacy. We've got statues to tear down, buildings to rename, parks to clear, battlefields to remove from the National Park Service, roads to rename, laws to change, people to round up who fly the confederate flag and arrests to be made for anyone spouting out secessionist propaganda. We've got to build interment camps, deprogramming work gettos and gulags. If we are to purge this terrible history from our nation so that no one will ever know what evil existed and there will be not the slightest evidence of it......we need to get to work now!
I had the very intense experience of visiting Dachau. Evils like slavery and genocide should not be forgotten, but they and their perpetrators should not be celebrated either.
Deprogramming is a word I chose because families used it to try to help family members caught up in cults and brainwashed by them. These white supremacist, neo-Nazi groups are death cults hoping to foment a race war. Should that happen they are greatly outnumbered by decent people and they would be killed.
I know the FBI watches these groups, but as with radical Islamic terrorists they can't watch and catch them all. It is up to those in their social circles to try to deradicalize them, so they aren't someday in the position of the Unabomber"s brother, who had to turn in a family member to save others' lives.
Ultralight
8-14-17, 6:25am
I was unplugged from Friday night until now. I had only vague knowledge of a clash of some kind in VA.
After reading about it this morning, it sounds like a right-wing terrorist attacked a group of people, killing one and injuring many others.
WS, in response to your concern re freedom of association, may I offer the following:
when my mother saw what free assembly in Germany triggered leading up to WW2, she was deeply concerned and ever after feared strong emotionalism and the mindless hate that was in control at that time. She left before WW2 after marrying my father. After her passing, I went to Germany and toured the country trying to understand her perception of the world and the consequences. In so many places, I saw huge differences in approach to life (Frankfurt wanted business and rebuilt accordingly, Munich wanted beauty and soul resulting huge tourism benefits) but every part expressed their remorse for enabling and being unable to control the hate at the appropriate time and the consequences that arose. I found that many people tried to stem the rise of hate and persecution and lost their lives in the process. This is not just a topic of conversation for me.
WS and all those who are defending the hate propagandists' freedom of assembly, where and how do you or will you draw the line? Can you draw the line? Germany could not despite the efforts of many courageous people of all persuasions. Germans were and are very smart and capable people. Many countries, including the US, bought into the hypnotic influence of that hate and denied sanctuary to those fleeing the hate.
Do not underestimate the power of hate especially with the easy communication provided by social media of today to assemble and overwhelm a society.
Princeton took a very careful thoughtful approach and is providing leadership. Free assembly is a right as is individualism but they also have obligations and responsibilities that we seem to be forgetting.
Without meaning disrespect to any, I go back to my analogy of foxes demanding free assembly in a chicken house. A chicken house has function, service, production with pecking orders and hierarchy but it works usually quite well. Foxes have an entirely different agenda, the intimidation of and destruction of the both the chickens and its peaceful activity. How should the chickens defend themselves? When? who should do this?
Germany didn't construct a defence system and was overrun by hate. That is what is happening when I read and see images of the US residents arming themselves against each other in fear. Is that what you see and want? This is not intended to be inflammatory but a serious question as I live nearby and don't want the hypnotic effect to spill here.
Well said, razz. I appreciate your perspective with regard to your own personal family history. It is frightening to me how quickly people can be swayed to hate, especially if they need someone to blame for their own misfortune.
Oprah had that famous segment with Jane Elliott. I saw it the first time it was broadcast, and couldn't believe it. In less than 30 minutes, Jane Elliott had managed to convince several audience members that blue-eyed people are inferior. It was astounding, actually. So if one TV guest with an absurd hypothesis can do that in 30 minutes to unsuspecting people, what can a group of highly motivated people with an agenda of hate do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOTxammRTw
Ultralight
8-14-17, 8:37am
when my mother saw what free assembly in Germany triggered leading up to WW2, she was deeply concerned and ever after feared strong emotionalism and the mindless hate that was in control at that time.
Free assembly triggered what? The holocaust?
America has problems, it sure does. But the freedoms of assembly and speech are perhaps the best things America has going for it.
This is not just a topic of conversation for me.
WS and all those who are defending the hate propagandists' freedom of assembly, where and how do you or will you draw the line?
Do not conflate speech and violence. Do. Not. Do. It.
Your totalitarian urge will not help this situation.
Bad ideas get crested by good ideas (if ever). Bad ideas never get crested or crushed by your totalitarianism.
Princeton took a very careful thoughtful approach and is providing leadership. Free assembly is a right as is individualism but they also have obligations and responsibilities that we seem to be forgetting.
Oh, do tell us what these responsibilities "we" seem to be forgetting are.
A government with the power to silence the ass hats like the Klan has the power to silence other groups later, when the wind shifts.
Ultralight
8-14-17, 8:44am
It's a pity we didn't let them secede.
No, it is a pity we did not FUBAR the Confederates.
WS, in response to your concern re freedom of association, may I offer the following:
when my mother saw what free assembly in Germany triggered leading up to WW2, she was deeply concerned and ever after feared strong emotionalism and the mindless hate that was in control at that time. She left before WW2 after marrying my father. After her passing, I went to Germany and toured the country trying to understand her perception of the world and the consequences. In so many places, I saw huge differences in approach to life (Frankfurt wanted business and rebuilt accordingly, Munich wanted beauty and soul resulting huge tourism benefits) but every part expressed their remorse for enabling and being unable to control the hate at the appropriate time and the consequences that arose. I found that many people tried to stem the rise of hate and persecution and lost their lives in the process. This is not just a topic of conversation for me.
WS and all those who are defending the hate propagandists' freedom of assembly, where and how do you or will you draw the line? Can you draw the line? Germany could not despite the efforts of many courageous people of all persuasions. Germans were and are very smart and capable people. Many countries, including the US, bought into the hypnotic influence of that hate and denied sanctuary to those fleeing the hate.
Do not underestimate the power of hate especially with the easy communication provided by social media of today to assemble and overwhelm a society.
Princeton took a very careful thoughtful approach and is providing leadership. Free assembly is a right as is individualism but they also have obligations and responsibilities that we seem to be forgetting.
Without meaning disrespect to any, I go back to my analogy of foxes demanding free assembly in a chicken house. A chicken house has function, service, production with pecking orders and hierarchy but it works usually quite well. Foxes have an entirely different agenda, the intimidation of and destruction of the both the chickens and its peaceful activity. How should the chickens defend themselves? When? who should do this?
Germany didn't construct a defence system and was overrun by hate. That is what is happening when I read and see images of the US residents arming themselves against each other in fear. Is that what you see and want? This is not intended to be inflammatory but a serious question as I live nearby and don't want the hypnotic effect to spill here.
With respect, this isn't an argument against fascism so much as an argument for a different brand of the same basic mindset. When you arrogate the power to define and stifle "hate" to some group within or without government, you've already yielded to the "totalitarian temptation". The rest is just detail. Neither you nor I nor any appointee to a Social Justice Tribunal should be trusted with that power.
Williamsmith
8-14-17, 8:55am
WS, in response to your concern re freedom of association, may I offer the following:
when my mother saw what free assembly in Germany triggered leading up to WW2, she was deeply concerned and ever after feared strong emotionalism and the mindless hate that was in control at that time. She left before WW2 after marrying my father. After her passing, I went to Germany and toured the country trying to understand her perception of the world and the consequences. In so many places, I saw huge differences in approach to life (Frankfurt wanted business and rebuilt accordingly, Munich wanted beauty and soul resulting huge tourism benefits) but every part expressed their remorse for enabling and being unable to control the hate at the appropriate time and the consequences that arose. I found that many people tried to stem the rise of hate and persecution and lost their lives in the process. This is not just a topic of conversation for me.
WS and all those who are defending the hate propagandists' freedom of assembly, where and how do you or will you draw the line? Can you draw the line? Germany could not despite the efforts of many courageous people of all persuasions. Germans were and are very smart and capable people. Many countries, including the US, bought into the hypnotic influence of that hate and denied sanctuary to those fleeing the hate.
Do not underestimate the power of hate especially with the easy communication provided by social media of today to assemble and overwhelm a society.
Princeton took a very careful thoughtful approach and is providing leadership. Free assembly is a right as is individualism but they also have obligations and responsibilities that we seem to be forgetting.
Without meaning disrespect to any, I go back to my analogy of foxes demanding free assembly in a chicken house. A chicken house has function, service, production with pecking orders and hierarchy but it works usually quite well. Foxes have an entirely different agenda, the intimidation of and destruction of the both the chickens and its peaceful activity. How should the chickens defend themselves? When? who should do this?
Germany didn't construct a defence system and was overrun by hate. That is what is happening when I read and see images of the US residents arming themselves against each other in fear. Is that what you see and want? This is not intended to be inflammatory but a serious question as I live nearby and don't want the hypnotic effect to spill here.
I don't mean to make this complex. In answer to where I myself draw the line, it is where protest turns to hurting people and destroying property. Our Constitution provides for dissent and allows protest. Every jurisdiction provides for application for permit of a lawful gathering to express beliefs. Who gets to decide what is acceptable dissent and protest?
When neo Nazis, white supremacists conspire to or actually hurt people and destroy property then I expect law enforcement to take action.
ToomuchStuff
8-14-17, 10:42am
WS, in response to your concern re freedom of association, may I offer the following:
when my mother saw what free assembly in Germany triggered leading up to WW2, she was deeply concerned and ever after feared strong emotionalism and the mindless hate that was in control at that time. She left before WW2 after marrying my father. After her passing, I went to Germany and toured the country trying to understand her perception of the world and the consequences.
I would agree with UL here, Free assembly did not cause the holocaust. Economics, from the costs of the first world war, with people looking to cause people to react emotionally, without rationality or critical thinking, had more of an effect, then just bunching people together. Put critical thinkers in a group and emotional people in a group and run it as an experiment.
I've talked to my neighbor about the war quite a bit, as he was born in Germany, during it. I've talked to a friend about Japan's involvement as he is from there and won't visit my home, since Truman walked up my shared with his cousin driveway. I have a friend that after school, went into the military, and after, became a white supremacist and tried to recruit another friend, whose grandfather ran one of those camps. His grandfather was brought over with scientists, as well as the V2 rockets that his camp produced. He didn't join, as hate is a learned trait. React with logic and not emotionally and your much harder to control.
No, it is a pity we did not FUBAR the Confederates.
Would you fubar your sister? How about your mother and father? That was a war, between people in the same families. I had family by the tree info I have, on both sides.
"Oh, do tell us what these responsibilities "we" seem to be forgetting are."
A late dear friend, Godfrey John, wrote an article that resonated with me and applies to humanity in general. I quote:
Benjamin Disraeli wrote - Individuals may form communities but it is institutions alone that can form a nation" - a corollary to peace, order and good government... For too long the strident cries of 'My rights! My rights!'have deafened ears to the voice that whispers "My duty! My duty!"As Buckminster Fuller stressed in The Coevolution Quarterly, humans have a cosmic exam to pass... Life on this planet will not depend on who we elect to represent us. It will depend on the decisions you and I make in our own self-critical examination. Fuller poses this question: "Is this truly for the many or just for me". Our future depends on a concept of freedom that has now become a paradox. Freedom as moral obligation which means love, not human rights per se. The very derivation of the word 'free' is the old Norse 'frithr' which means 'love'. The highest expression of freedom, then, is the highest expression of love.
"Free assembly triggered what? The holocaust? " Free assembly with no checks and balances triggered emotion, then targets to hate, then fear and hypnotic compliance. We each have several layers of intelligence - the reptilian which is concerned with fight and flight; the limbic system which is emotional; the neocortex which is rational. If all are in operation, we are mental healthy and at peace. However, between the limbic and neocortex is the amygdala. In intense emotion, the amygdala shuts off the neocortex and rational thought is blocked. Sometime readhttp://https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=The+hostage+at+the+table
"America has problems, it sure does. But the freedoms of assembly and speech are perhaps the best things America has going for it."
I totally agree and have stated on this site, the importance of the example of how openly this is all going on in the US whereas similar activities elsewhere around the world are hidden. We are all on this journey with the US learning and showing the way. Where are the checks and balances that are needed. Princeton, in the link that Bae posted on this thread, openly addressed the concerns, the emotions, the options and the decision made with the why, the how, the when etc. That is leadership at its finest, IMO anyway.
"Your totalitarian urge will not help this situation."
I see myself as so opposed to totalitarianism but rather the tremendous importance of each individual's intelligence and conscious effort to oppose vigorously the hypnotic influence of hate-mongering which leads to mob rule when emotionalism take over and rational thought is blocked. All my questions are asking, "How may this be prevented? What checks and balances are needed to be developed now?
Germany was unprepared for this in the 1930's and the law enforcement agencies were neither trained nor had it been part of the preparation. It sounds as though neither were those in Charlottesville which is very unjust to them. What needs to change in your opinion?
iris lilies
8-14-17, 11:52am
"Oh, do tell us what these responsibilities "we" seem to be forgetting are."
A late dear friend, Godfrey John, wrote an article that resonated with me and applies to humanity in general. I quote:
Benjamin Disraeli wrote - Individuals may form communities but it is institutions alone that can form a nation" - a corollary to peace, order and good government... For too long the strident cries of 'My rights! My rights!'have deafened ears to the voice that whispers "My duty! My duty!"As Buckminster Fuller stressed in The Coevolution Quarterly, humans have a cosmic exam to pass... Life on this planet will not depend on who we elect to represent us. It will depend on the decisions you and I make in our own self-critical examination. Fuller poses this question: "Is this truly for the many or just for me". Our future depends on a concept of freedom that has now become a paradox. Freedom as moral obligation which means love, not human rights per se. The very derivation of the word 'free' is the old Norse 'frithr' which means 'love'. The highest expression of freedom, then, is the highest expression of love.
"Free assembly triggered what? The holocaust? " Free assembly with no checks and balances triggered emotion, then targets to hate, then fear and hypnotic compliance. We each have several layers of intelligence - the reptilian which is concerned with fight and flight; the limbic system which is emotional; the neocortex which is rational. If all are in operation, we are mental healthy and at peace. However, between the limbic and neocortex is the amygdala. In intense emotion, the amygdala shuts off the neocortex and rational thought is blocked. Sometime readhttp://https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=The+hostage+at+the+table
"America has problems, it sure does. But the freedoms of assembly and speech are perhaps the best things America has going for it."
I totally agree and have stated on this site, the importance of the example of how openly this is all going on in the US whereas similar activities elsewhere around the world are hidden. We are all on this journey with the US learning and showing the way. Where are the checks and balances that are needed. Princeton, in the link that Bae posted on this thread, openly addressed the concerns, the emotions, the options and the decision made with the why, the how, the when etc. That is leadership at its finest, IMO anyway.
"Your totalitarian urge will not help this situation."
I see myself as so opposed to totalitarianism but rather the tremendous importance of each individual's intelligence and conscious effort to oppose vigorously the hypnotic influence of hate-mongering which leads to mob rule when emotionalism take over and rational thought is blocked. All my questions are asking, "How may this be prevented? What checks and balances are needed to be developed now?
Germany was unprepared for this in the 1930's and the law enforcement agencies were neither trained nor had it been part of the preparation. It sounds as though neither were those in Charlottesville which is very unjust to them. What needs to change in your opinion?
what does the bolded mean? You think Charlottesville law enforcement could have kept an idiot from driving his car into a crowd?
I see myself as so opposed to totalitarianism but rather the tremendous importance of each individual's intelligence and conscious effort to oppose vigorously the hypnotic influence of hate-mongering which leads to mob rule when emotionalism take over and rational thought is blocked. All my questions are asking, "How may this be prevented? What checks and balances are needed to be developed now?
Germany was unprepared for this in the 1930's and the law enforcement agencies were neither trained nor had it been part of the preparation. It sounds as though neither were those in Charlottesville which is very unjust to them. What needs to change in your opinion?
I certainly agree with you that politics is downstream of culture, and I certainly think alt-right culture is an ugly thing indeed. Where we part ways is the idea that you can impose "checks and balances" on a culture through the application of force to suppress what may be fairly viewed as "hate" (or at least its expression). How can we expect the police to patrol the hearts and minds of men? The law jailed Hitler, and he took the opportunity to write Mein Kampf.
If there is a struggle, it is within the greater culture, and it won't be won with kinds of weapons we can issue to the police.
Williamsmith
8-14-17, 12:23pm
Look a little higher up the ladder to the leadership of the law enforcement agencies for lack of preparedness or orders to stand down and the politicians who were eager to get this conflict started in order to further their agenda.
what does the bolded mean? You think Charlottesville law enforcement could have kept an idiot from driving his car into a crowd?
The idiot, as you call him, was caught up in the emotion of it all probably reinforced by online contacts, I suspect, but that answer will come out at some point. Do I believe that he would have done this after thinking rationally about doing this. What the impact on his family in its community would be? If he could actually kill someone? No.
What steps could have anticipated and averted this tragedy? I don't pretend to have the answers to individual questions like this one but I am sure enforcement agencies around the world are examining them. What do Boston and its agencies do now to prepare for the Boston marathon as a result of the recent attack? Perhaps I am naive but I do believe that when such tragedies occur, the attending enforcement agencies at all levels do an in-depth review and try to see what could have been done differently to achieve a better result. It is very painful for those who are dedicated and committed to protecting society to go through terrible tragedies like this.
Williamsmith
8-14-17, 12:37pm
Also be aware that there is an anti fascist movement from the left and they are equally as culpable.
https://www.wired.com/2017/02/neo-nazis-face-new-foe-online-irl-far-left-antifa/
Also be aware that there is an anti fascist movement from the left and they are equally as culpable.
https://www.wired.com/2017/02/neo-nazis-face-new-foe-online-irl-far-left-antifa/
Interesting that hate wears many colours of shirts. Whatever the colour, personal responsibility for society and one's thoughts, feelings and actions remains. Note my signature.;)
Teacher Terry
8-14-17, 12:49pm
The police were not prepared and came too late. They should have anticipated that there would be a ton of protestors and been ready.
The police were not prepared and came too late. They should have anticipated that there would be a ton of protestors and been ready.
Whenever someone starts bloviating about "all sides" or "both sides," ask them if they remember the Women's March. It wasn't that long ago.
I never showed up at a demonstration or a rally with a long gun or a club.
I agree; police should have done their research on the proclivities of neo-Nazi thugs and made an appropriate show of force.
The idiot, as you call him, was caught up in the emotion of it all probably reinforced by online contacts, I suspect, but that answer will come out at some point. Do I believe that he would have done this after thinking rationally about doing this. What the impact on his family in its community would be? If he could actually kill someone? No.
So what would you do? Operate a massive domestic spying program to monitor his online contacts and step in before their pernicious impact could manifest itself?
iris lilies
8-14-17, 2:07pm
The police were not prepared and came too late. They should have anticipated that there would be a ton of protestors and been ready.
Terry,
no shots were fired, no property was damaged. In the crazy world of protesting, that is pretty amazing, considering that a high percentage of protestors had guns.
I dont like agreeing with Terry Mcauliife, but that was his take on it as well.
what exactly do you expect police to do, rush in there and wrestle people to the ground? Wont that escalate it all? Wont that hurt people?
During tribute protests to the Sainted One, Michal Brown, police here deliberately did not engage with protestors and they allowed property to burn to the ground. The idea here was people are more important than buildings.
You regularly bemoan police brutality. I cant understand your position, and apparently the position of others here, that cops who did not touch protestors were (once again,) the bad guys. Jeez. I repeat: no shots fired, no property damaged. That is a damned good record.
That a young woman killed by the guy who drove a car theough the crowd is very sad. Cops cant be blamed for that one.
A young black man was badly beaten by a group of armed thugs who were apparently too cowardly to challenge him to a fair fight. Only one of them has been identified so far. I bet that wasn't the only case.
ApatheticNoMore
8-14-17, 2:23pm
During tribute protests to the Sainted One, Michal Brown, police here deliberately did not engage with protestors and they allowed property to burn to the ground. The idea here was people are more important than buildings.
if that was policy so be it I guess, but the problem here wasn't failure to protect buildings but failure to protect PEOPLE - if people were fighting each other in the streets as has been reported and the police didn't step in then ...
The police were not prepared and came too late. They should have anticipated that there would be a ton of protestors and been ready.
What, precisely, *should* the police have done, and when?
What should their rules of engagement have been?
I serve as a training crowd member for the Washington State Patrol when they do their riot training (one year we got to be zombies for an hour too, just for fun). It's tricky business, the police can't just wade into a lawful gathering and start going at it with batons...
iris lilies
8-14-17, 2:50pm
What, precisely, *should* the police have done, and when?
What should their rules of engagement have been?
I serve as a training crowd member for the Washington State Patrol when they do their riot training (one year we got to be zombies for an hour too, just for fun). It's tricky business, the police can't just wade into a lawful gathering and start going at it with batons...
clearly, the sentiment here is that police need to protect the righteous and beat up the Bad guys.
How they tell that in a crowd of dunderhrads is beyond me.
Referring again to our many protests honoring Michael Brown, Gentle Giant and now Saint, cops suggested that protestors go home after dark because thats when things heated up, bad nicks showed up. Fights, gunshots, beatings ensued, buildings burned. But not by the police and national guard.
In the crowds here, supposedly with everyone holding more or less the same values, shit went down and people hurt other people. Sometimes it is smart to just stand back and observe the goons marchng their little marches, waving their little flags, and spewing their little chants of hatred. Fighting over turf isstupid.
So what would you do? Operate a massive domestic spying program to monitor his online contacts and step in before their pernicious impact could manifest itself?
We each have the responsibility for our thoughts, feelings and actions. When emotions take over, rational thought is blocked. Again, using the Princeton approach, public initiatives to address the concerns may, and I say, may, reduce those who get caught in the spiral. Some others here can better speak to how this is addressed with troubled young people around the US now.
clearly, the sentiment here is that police need to protect the righteous and beat up the Bad guys.
How they tell that in a crowd of dunderhrads is beyond me.
How big is the Charlottesville police department?
How many people arrived to demonstrate? And how many arrived to counter-demonstrate?
Two officers died in a helicopter crash during the festivities.
http://cdn.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/DHDxRAvXsAAbs1T.jpg
https://media.tmz.com/2017/08/13/0813-hellicopter-crash-police-men-virgina-state-police-4.jpg
Lt. H. Jay Cullen, 48, and Trooper-Pilot Berke M.M. Bates, 40.
Again, using the Princeton approach, public initiatives to address the concerns may, and I say, may, reduce those who get caught in the spiral.
The Princeton approach was possible because the students weren't dressed up like the hoplites of Epaminondas, lining up and fighting each other in the streets, which gave the University time to discuss matters with words instead of mace, water cannons, and tanks.
The Princeton approach was possible because the students weren't dressed up like the hoplites of Epaminondas, lining up and fighting each other in the streets, which gave the University time to discuss matters with words instead of mace, water cannons, and tanks.
I agree. That is where leadership comes into play. This is going to come with time, I am positive, but how many more must be harmed, how many young men sent as fresh meat' into prison first? The need has been demonstrated, will leadership step up to the plate and offer a better model of conduct to follow as Princeton did before the next rally?
I have great faith in the intelligence of man but sometimes, I do question my faith. The alternative though, is not acceptable.
I am out of this thread permanently.
Teacher Terry
8-14-17, 4:42pm
I didn't say the police should act like thugs and start hitting people but a bigger presence initially would have shown that they could control the crowd is things got out of hand. If their department is not big enough then they could have asked the National Guard for assistance. It should have come as no surprise to the leaders that removing the statue was going to be a huge problem. How about a little pre-planning?
The Princeton approach was possible because the students weren't dressed up like the hoplites of Epaminondas, lining up and fighting each other in the streets, which gave the University time to discuss matters with words instead of mace, water cannons, and tanks.
Princeton also had the advantage of Woodrow Wilson being perhaps a less polarizing figure, especially among the neoconfederate intellectual elite, than Bobby Lee. Certainly not to the extent of reviving the Sacred Band of Thebes.
Here's a first-person account. Apparently the Neo-Nazis came prepared to bust heads and the police enabled them.
https://medium.com/@_chelleshock/notes-on-charlottesville-25e5e156173b
Here's a first-person account. Apparently the Neo-Nazis came prepared to bust heads and the police enabled them.
https://medium.com/@_chelleshock/notes-on-charlottesville-25e5e156173b
Tricky to trust any reports coming out of the incident at this time, given the amount of disinformation that's flying around.
Ultralight
8-14-17, 6:46pm
Tricky to trust any reports coming out of the incident at this time, given the amount of disinformation that's flying around.
But bae! What if the report confirms exactly what you want to believe!?
But bae! What if the report confirms exactly what you want to believe!?
Then I am compelled to redouble my skepticism.
Ultralight
8-14-17, 6:52pm
Then I am compelled to redouble my skepticism.
I support this.
Here's a photo from the incident. (Allegedly).
Notice that both the antifa and the fa forces seem to have shields and weapons. Note also the body language and actions of the crowd around the two hoplite armies. (The antifa folks have clearly done a better job with their fashion coordination, the fa side seems a bit ragtag and in need of discipline.)
http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2017/08/063_830762776-e1502562907959-635x357.jpg
These recent events remind me of some of the reality TV shows littering my cable subscription, complete with viewers and other observers taking sides, promoting their favorite antagonists and talking trash about the opposition.
I'd be happy to ignore the KKK, White Supremists, BLM, Nazis, CAIR, Muslim Brotherhood, ANTIFA and any other group advertising their grievance to a bloodthirsty media, as well as any person or group who demands that I condemn one more than another. They're all shitheads!
Here's a photo from the incident. (Allegedly).
Notice that both the antifa and the fa forces seem to have shields and weapons. Note also the body language and actions of the crowd around the two hoplite armies. (The antifa folks have clearly done a better job with their fashion coordination, the fa side seems a bit ragtag and in need of discipline.)
http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2017/08/063_830762776-e1502562907959-635x357.jpg
Can you point out the antifa side's weapons? I admit I'm getting old so perhaps my vision isn't what it once was, but I'm only seeing some fashionable shields on that side.
http://www.sfexaminer.com/white-supremacist-patriot-rally-coming-san-francisco-counter-protest-already-planned/
It'll be interesting to see how things play out in one of the most liberal cities in the country in a couple of weeks.
These recent events remind me of some of the reality TV shows littering my cable subscription, complete with viewers and other observers taking sides, promoting their favorite antagonists and talking trash about the opposition.
I'd be happy to ignore the KKK, White Supremists, BLM, Nazis, CAIR, Muslim Brotherhood, ANTIFA and any other group advertising their grievance to a bloodthirsty media, as well as any person or group who demands that I condemn one more than another. They're all shitheads!
and like the reality TV shows the media is giving them what they want, attention. And I agree that all the groups you mentioned are shitheads. And you probably missed quite a few. It would be better to just ignore them, as long as they are not hurting anyone or destroying property. Let them rant and rave, if no one came to the rally, who would they fight with.
Here's a photo from the incident. (Allegedly).
Notice that both the antifa and the fa forces seem to have shields and weapons. Note also the body language and actions of the crowd around the two hoplite armies. (The antifa folks have clearly done a better job with their fashion coordination, the fa side seems a bit ragtag and in need of discipline.)
http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2017/08/063_830762776-e1502562907959-635x357.jpg
Looks like somebody raided a community theater prop room.
Tricky to trust any reports coming out of the incident at this time, given the amount of disinformation that's flying around.
If you can't trust a freelance writer person with a lot of projects, who can you trust?
Williamsmith
8-15-17, 9:18am
I have been part of the riot control element of law enforcement. There was a major prison riot I recall (That got very ugly- hostages and plenty of assaults) , a G20 summit in Pittsburgh (some property damage to banks), some local militia protests against the United Nations, second amendment rally, ....each of these events has its own flavor and potential for violence. We trained, we hoped for the best. Sometimes it all worked out nicely, sometimes we took our name tags off and quit playing nice in the sandbox. That's the nature of these events.
From what I have read and the pictures I have seen......I would not have been too intimidated by the elements present. It could have been a wonderful episode of Monty Pythons Flying Circus with the characters involved. Had it not been for one act of domestic terrorism, it would have been forgotten by cable news before the next shift of anchors came in.
The mainstream news propagandists do our country a great disservice by harping on these things interminably. CNN and FOX are the first two representatives of this I can think of. I don't watch them. I can't stomach their rhetoric. And when you start nodding in agreement and finding yourself repeating their mantras on either left or right....you surrender your obligation to determine for yourself right and wrong. Finger pointing is totally worthless.
I think law enforcement is quite capable of dealing with the clashes between these two groups of silly protestors given the right leadership. But what is likely to develop as a sort of offshoot is an uptick in domestic terrorism...and that we can ill afford not to be prepared for. I suspect most of the resources are being spent on Islamic terrorism prevention but historically we have a quite capable group of nutcases willing and able to commit terrorist acts in order to further their warped agenda.
Thats the sorry relavence to Charlottesville, not the current meme.
Can you point out the antifa side's weapons? I admit I'm getting old so perhaps my vision isn't what it once was, but I'm only seeing some fashionable shields on that side.
We cannot see the hands of the fashion-oriented side in that photo. Other photos from the incident show pepper spray and other things being shot past similar shields, so I would not assume their hands are empty.
Furthermore, the shields themselves are quite lethal weapons. I study HEMA, and in almost every shield+weapon system the shield is not a passive protective device, but is used as a *very* effective impact weapon. The edge of the shield is particularly troublesome.
Any thoughts on the body language displayed by the onlookers and the participants themselves?
Any thoughts on the body language displayed by the onlookers and the participants themselves?Street Theater before an adoring crowd.
Williamsmith
8-15-17, 1:06pm
Street Theater before an adoring crowd.
"This is going to get me to 100K followers on my YouTube channel !"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4828672/Masked-antifa-swarm-Berkeley-rally-assaulting-several.html
Looks like we have liftoff....
ToomuchStuff
8-28-17, 1:25am
Isn't violence a form of hate? Should we push for this to be investigated/prosecuted as a hate crime?
Street Theater before an adoring crowd.
They do seem to be expressing their support for universal brotherhood through a sort of malign performance art. Mad Max costumery and expressionist dance in the service of whichever anarcho-nihilist or neomarxist ideology they think they're serving.
Much more stylish than the Army Surplus/Offensive Lineman couture of the similar idiots they like to think of as their opposites.
What is the significance of the animals on the signs?
Isn't violence a form of hate? Should we push for this to be investigated/prosecuted as a hate crime?
Why not as run-of-the-mill criminal assault? Otherwise we get into and endless loop of "I hate those haters for hating, therefore I will hit those hateful haters hatefully".
I think we should prosecute the act and not the motivation behind it. Otherwise we're in the position of criminalizing thought.
ToomuchStuff
8-28-17, 9:45am
I think we should prosecute the act and not the motivation behind it. Otherwise we're in the position of criminalizing thought.
We already do criminalize thought. Hence hate crime laws. Murder is murder, but if someone is killed because of their protected religion or "race" (instead of human), it can and does get prosecuted as a "hate" crime.
We already do criminalize thought. Hence hate crime laws. Murder is murder, but if someone is killed because of their protected religion or "race" (instead of human), it can and does get prosecuted as a "hate" crime.Hate crime legislation is absolutely a form of thought crime prosecution, and anyone who objects is either a racist or homophobe or some other popular label. It's the slipperiest of slopes.
Hate crime legislation is absolutely a form of thought crime prosecution, and anyone who objects is either a racist or homophobe or some other popular label. It's the slipperiest of slopes.
We already differentiate the "level" of murder based on what we believe the person was thinking at the time. Is that not the same thing?
We already differentiate the "level" of murder based on what we believe the person was thinking at the time. Is that not the same thing?
I think that goes more to the capacity of the murderer to understand the choice he or she was making. Calmly planning and executing a crime being considered more serious than acting in a sudden fit of rage or due to some mental defect. In my mind, there should be little difference between planning a murder for profit or for ideological reasons.
Is it possible the antifas are paid by the right wing to disrupt? It plays right into their hands.
Is it possible the antifas are paid by the right wing to disrupt? It plays right into their hands.
That's what I was thinking. As much as the thought of punching a Nazi in the face appeals to me, that kind of thing is unhelpful to our cause.
Is it possible the antifas are paid by the right wing to disrupt? It plays right into their hands.
Is it possible the Nazi-LARPers are paid by the left wing to disrupt? It plays right into their hands.
Is it possible the Nazi-LARPers are paid by the left wing to disrupt? It plays right into their hands.
That's an idea that probably plays well in some circles. Bannon, Duke, and company are pretty convincing, though.
Is it possible that the extremist violent agitators on *all* the sides are being paid/influenced/organized by People Who Don't Have Any Of Our Best Interests At Heart?
Is it possible that the extremist violent agitators on *all* the sides are being paid/influenced/organized by People Who Don't Have Any Of Our Best Interests At Heart?
I see the malevolent hand of the pepper spray industry in all this, probably in unholy alliance with the American Tear Gas Association, Russian Intelligence and Space Alien Lizard Overlords, Inc. The signs are all there for those with the courage to see them.
I see the malevolent hand of the pepper spray industry in all this, probably in unholy alliance with the American Tear Gas Association, Russian Intelligence and Space Alien Lizard Overlords, Inc. The signs are all there for those with the courage to see them.
Indeed so! And it's no coincidence that so many of those eclipse viewing glasses were recalled as "unsafe"...
https://mindreels.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/they_live_23.png
Is it possible that the extremist violent agitators on *all* the sides are being paid/influenced/organized by People Who Don't Have Any Of Our Best Interests At Heart?
I think Occam's Razor applies here. You have a few Yahoo's on one side and a lot of Yahoo's on the other side engaging in ideological virtue signaling, with an element of Blood and Circuses thrown in to entertain the masses.
Indeed so! And it's no coincidence that so many of those eclipse viewing glasses were recalled as "unsafe"...
https://mindreels.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/they_live_23.png
I think Mrs. Clinton covers that in her new book. It was the lizards! The lizards!
Indeed so! And it's no coincidence that so many of those eclipse viewing glasses were recalled as "unsafe"...
https://mindreels.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/they_live_23.png
Oh yeah, they're Rowdy too.
I think Occam's Razor applies here. You have a few Yahoo's on one side and a lot of Yahoo's on the other side engaging in ideological virtue signaling, with an element of Blood and Circuses thrown in to entertain the masses.
Just depends which dog whistle frequency you're tuned for?
Just depends which dog whistle frequency you're tuned for?Dan Rather would know.
I think Occam's Razor applies here. You have a few Yahoo's on one side and a lot of Yahoo's on the other side engaging in ideological virtue signaling, with an element of Blood and Circuses thrown in to entertain the masses.
To be fair, government at various levels in this country have a long-standing tradition of infiltrating groups of citizens to gather intelligence, and sometimes to provoke them to action so arrests could be made. During the Civil Rights era in the 1960s, I suspect some groups were made up entirely of agents from different departments spying on each other :-)
https://www.thenation.com/article/wonderful-american-world-informers-and-agents-provocateurs/
Fun related video on this from a couple years ago:
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/spies-of-mississippi/
To be fair, government at various levels in this country have a long-standing tradition of infiltrating groups of citizens to gather intelligence, and sometimes to provoke them to action so arrests could be made. During the Civil Rights era in the 1960s, I suspect some groups were made up entirely of agents from different departments spying on each other :-)
https://www.thenation.com/article/wonderful-american-world-informers-and-agents-provocateurs/
Fun related video on this from a couple years ago:
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/spies-of-mississippi/
I have an uncle who claims Donald Trump is a provocateur in the pay of the Democratic National Committee with a mission to destroy the GOP. He may drink his breakfast most mornings, but if I ever see Trump rip off a mask to reveal Elizabeth Warren I won't be able to say I wasn't warned.
Dan Rather would know.
Or Kenneth.
Or Kenneth.
Did anyone ever find out what the frequency was? I've long wondered...
I just watched "The Free State of Jones." It provides an alternate Southern perspective.
"He died in honor."
"No Will, he just died."
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