View Full Version : How to decide where to live
I think I have finally gotten DH on board to sell our house within the next year or two, pack up and go to VT. He shockingly said to me that if we sell both BIL and our houses, we can clear ALL debt (including mortgage debt) if we buy a house with a budget of $200k. So we're seriously considering just that. The idea that we could be in a place with no debt and then every project I take on is money in the bank.. wow.
Question is...how do I decide which of three routes to take:
#1: Small home on small piece of land (.25 to .5 acres) within 20 minutes to Burlington, more of a densely populated area but also closer to stores/amenities
#2: Bigger piece of land on one of the northern Lake Champlain islands; more remote, within an hour of Burlington.
#3: Buy land when we we see a good deal and build
You guys who have made moves recently, how did you decide where to go?? My gut tells me that I prefer being close to civilization, but I can see the value of a more remote place, too. This is definitely going to be a tough, tough decision.
Thoughts? Advice?
I think I have finally gotten DH on board to sell our house within the next year or two, pack up and go to VT. He shockingly said to me that if we sell both BIL and our houses, we can clear ALL debt (including mortgage debt) if we buy a house with a budget of $200k. So we're seriously considering just that. The idea that we could be in a place with no debt and then every project I take on is money in the bank.. wow.
Question is...how do I decide which of three routes to take:
#1: Small home on small piece of land (.25 to .5 acres) within 20 minutes to Burlington, more of a densely populated area but also closer to stores/amenities
#2: Bigger piece of land on one of the northern Lake Champlain islands; more remote, within an hour of Burlington.
#3: Buy land when we we see a good deal and build
You guys who have made moves recently, how did you decide where to go?? My gut tells me that I prefer being close to civilization, but I can see the value of a more remote place, too. This is definitely going to be a tough, tough decision.
Thoughts? Advice?
I will check in later with feedback on the 3 routes, but may I say, clearing all debt, including mortgage, and being able to take on what projects you select--
HOORAY FOR YOU!!! This is fantastic news and a great plan!
I will mention that there is a lot of snow drifting in the Champlain Islands- which could be a significant impediment if you need to travel to Burlington frequently, either for work or medical appointments. Its really beautiful there in the summer, but winter driving can be treacherous.
ToomuchStuff
8-14-17, 10:22am
Why those three options? Why not look at houses first, before limiting yourself to those three options?
Point being, if you found a house that you considered "perfect" on either point and you had to adapt to the other one, would it matter that you had already made up your mind the other way?
iris lilies
8-14-17, 10:30am
Why are you interested in "land?" What will you do with it?
Can you buy something cheaper and put the difference into retirement or emergency funds?
When I was young I lived paycheck to paycheck for a number of years (and sometimes unexpected expenses like car repairs exceeded the available funds.) Being able to have a financial cushion now is huge. The relief and peace of mind is enormous. If I had a choice, I would choose a smaller house/land and buy that peace of mind instead.
iris lilies
8-14-17, 10:51am
I dont have any wisdom to impart. I always look at real estate, but this week we looked a little more seriously than usual, in that we drove to a small town I love to look at a potential place (it was bad) and also drove across the river to look at a place in a mid sized city.
I am thinking of leaving here because so many of our friends have left, and another close friend will be gone in two years. She is finally moving out to the country to get acreage, but it is only 3 acres. Also,I now fear for the future of our neighborhood because no one volunteers any more, we can't fill board positions, people dont understand that the physical improvements they see are carried out by our neighvorhood organization, their taxes are not funding it.
I also tire of the political rhetoric surrounding crime in my city. It is not the crime itself that really bugs me, it is the apologetics surrounding it.
The easy fix for us is to move out to a country place with a few acres, easy peasy! But I *hate* the idea of driving everywhere, I will not move out to a place where I have to drive 40 minutes to get to civilization. What "civilization" means to me is architecture of note, and social institutions such as a public library, garden club, civic organizations for volunteer opportunities.
I really like Hermann, MO because it has all of that in a tiny package and it has scenic hills as well, where you can have a house on a hill and look at church spires that remind me of Europe. But I want acres. yes! an acre, in town. So that is pretty much impossible. Oh, I also want a small house, must be under 2,000 sq feet. Another cool thing about Hermann is that the passenger train goes from there to St. Louis. I would rent a small apartment in St. Louis if we bought real estate in Hermann.
There is a lot more I could say about where I am house hunting, maybe more later. But in the end, it is unlikely we will move.
already two sets of people who moved from our neighborhood are dreadfully unhappy, and one set has already moved back from the suburbs. The other couple may return, them from a country place. I know that I cant do country. I dont even want a weekend place in the country, its just more maintenance.
The closest I ever lived to "the country" was in a tiny coastal resort town. I don't need or want more land than it takes to buffer me from neighbors, and from a distance, country life has no appeal. I agree with Iris Lily that I need to be close to civilization, with all that entails.
If you live an isolated life on an island with harsh weather, will you just have to move again when age encroaches on you? I would pay close attention to your visceral reaction to each property you see. Don't go overboard with logic, but do consider the big picture.
I second the advice to consider more options, especially since it's a long-distance move. I've made three of those. Maybe rent for a while and try a couple of things first? I've bought land and built. Way too much trouble and headache. I've lived in remote places. Not at all what I call simple living. I don't even want to own anymore. I rent in town and love it. Lots of flexibility, and I can change my mind at any time -- buy, rent elsewhere, try other parts of town or state, etc. I'm debt-free too. It's great, but it's possible to trade one kind of freedom for another and end up strapped again.
catherine
8-14-17, 11:05am
IL, you brought up my sentiments exactly. The idea of a country place in the middle of nowhere seems really appealing, especially if there is SOME small town nearby. But I know myself well enough to know that I get claustrophobic in car-dependent places. That's why I love Ocean Grove, NJ, because it's an adorable town with Historic Landmark status, it's on the beach, very community-minded, but you can also walk to a train in about 10 minutes and be on your way to NYC. Problem is, even little tiny houses cost $300k.
So, that's also why I love Burlington, but we want a place that will entice the kids to visit us. That's why near/on the lake would be ideal. Tybee had provided a link to a house in just the right spot a while back and I actually pursued it a bit but while I was jerking around trying to decide, someone bought it. It was $134,000 (fits Geila's recommendation), was across the street from a beach in a nice community, and was only 20 minutes from the kids. The two downsides were it was on leased land (big red flag) and it was seasonal only.
Frankly, the seasonal thing doesn't bother me because I would just come back to NJ for the winter to see my other son/grandkids. I'd rent a winter place in OG. October-May rentals are very cheap on the beach.
But yeah, we keep seeing amazing values way up north, but there's a reason they're that cheap. I'd have to drive miles to get to a supermarket. Been there done that when I lived in upstate NY and I didn't like it a bit.
I like to visit the country, and even vacation there. But I like to live in a city. It would be nice to have some more space so that my neighbors wouldn't be so close by, but I find that gardening has not been restricted by having a small lot. For me anyway. I just have to be more selective on what I choose to have. Where I live, I could probably go car-free. The Costco trips (about 3 miles away) could be done on weekends or evenings with Dh and his car (or just the car!) I'm not a biker, so I'm not going to lug stuff home on a bike. Everything else is within walking distance or serviced by public transport. But I'm lazy, so I drive. But it's nice to have the option. And it's nice to have errands by a quick little thing instead of a multiple hour endeavor.
Catherine - what about a small place that has access to a community garden?
iris lilies
8-14-17, 11:07am
Across the river is a town I think is decaying, which is why I reject it as a place to move to, yet I hover around it because it has a neighborhood of fabulous old houses sitting on more than an acre. This one makes me weep, it is so beautiful! I have been watching it since it was listed in the $400,000s, now the price is dropping. But we wouldnt buy it, taxes are a horrific $8,000 annually.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1750-Liberty-St_Alton_IL_62002_M82572-73024
catherine
8-14-17, 11:10am
Catherine - what about a small place that has access to a community garden?
Burlington has The Intervale (https://www.intervale.org), a nationally-known organization/community garden network. If I had bought that house I looked into, I would have been within a couple of miles of one.
catherine
8-14-17, 11:12am
Across the river is a town I think is decaying, which is why I reject it as a place to move to, yet I hover around it because it has a neighborhood of fabulous old houses sitting on more than an acre. This one makes me weep, it is so beautiful! I have been watching it since it was listed in the $400,000s, now the price is dropping. But we wouldnt buy it, taxes are a horrific $8,000 annually.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1750-Liberty-St_Alton_IL_62002_M82572-73024
Wow, that's a beauty! Alton is a nice town--I was there when we were in St. Louis.
Catherine - do your kids need an incentive to visit?
And how about if your new lifestyle included visiting them for the day or weekend? Maybe they would really enjoy that. They get to play host and you and dh get to have fun adventures!
SteveinMN
8-14-17, 11:26am
To me the choice(s) come down to how you value simplicity. The house and the land (however much you have of either) will require maintenance in proportion to how much you have. Only you can determine how much time and money you'd want (or be able) to put into that. You likely won't take care of a 3-acre site with a push mower. Living lakeside implies at least a dock that is put in and taken out and maintained every year. A big house still has to be heated and repairs kept up. Would the place that's "out there" come with city water and sewer and gas and high-speed internet? Or do you even care about any of those? Millions of people don't. Millions of people do. What does resale look like? Again, do you care?
As even our outer-ring suburb friends age, they're seeing more and more value to the model we pursued: small house close to the city (and hospitals/doctors, mass transit, necessities [food market, drugstore, etc.] and interesting things to do that don't require getting in a car). We don't need to have one of every tool there is, we have choices when it comes to buying something (not just the food market in town), we aren't looked at askance if we don't attend the church in town or our daughter of color shows up with her family for a cookout. Then again, even though we're major introverts, we can be social enough to overlook the neighbor that thinks his leaf blower is History's Greatest Invention and we filter out the house that's 15 feet from one of our walls. That's the tradeoff we made. I would not suggest it works for everyone. But it seems to have more appeal to folks as they get older and less willing/able to reach their bootstraps. :)
iris lilies
8-14-17, 11:30am
Oh, also--
I am unable to live in a house constructed after 1970. My eyes explode or something from the ugliness. Haha, but it limits further my options. Theoretically, it is possible to build new a house that wouldnt make my eyes explode, but that would be a very expensive house indeed. On a positive note, I do not mind "dated" kitchens and the like, and I actually have developed a real fondness for original kitchens in circa 1960's ranches.
We live in the country- only 1 acre, but the other properties have more acreage so we see houses but aren't right next to them. The closest town with grocery, bank, library, barber is 10-15 minute drive over the mountain.. 2 larger towns are 30 minutes, Baltimore and DC are 90 minutes or 300 depending on traffic! I often think of moving to "town" but we have decided to age in place as much as possible until driving is impossible. We will hire lawn mower people and snow blowing people but as of now- 68yrs. old- we seem to be doing OK. I cannot move farther south than MD - and have no desire to move farther north either. The beach calls me and we have a condo there- 4 hours away- but we don't go and stay long. I think if I were alone I might go and stay all winter there. In the meantime I am doing some clearing out of stuff. That itself is never ending, but I do it knowing sometime we will need to downsize and just what exactly is the point of keeping so many things. We had the house interior painted which resulted in many items put into the attic and not returned to the freshly painted rooms. A good move, now to get them out of the attic and GONE.
IL, would you ever consider Galena, Illinois, or is it too far from your peeps?
I fell in love with this miner's cottage last week, at 312 Gear st, Galena:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/pmf,pf_pt/105619894_zpid/2-_beds/0-70000_price/0-257_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/42.51994,-90.186768,42.301182,-90.55584_rect/11_zm/
Across the river is a town I think is decaying, which is why I reject it as a place to move to, yet I hover around it because it has a neighborhood of fabulous old houses sitting on more than an acre. This one makes me weep, it is so beautiful! I have been watching it since it was listed in the $400,000s, now the price is dropping. But we wouldnt buy it, taxes are a horrific $8,000 annually.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1750-Liberty-St_Alton_IL_62002_M82572-73024
Amazing how much prices--and values--differ from place to place. Very stately from the outside, and apparently vast from inside!
iris lilies
8-14-17, 12:22pm
IL, would you ever consider Galena, Illinois, or is it too far from your peeps?
I fell in love with this miner's cottage last week, at 312 Gear st, Galena:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/pmf,pf_pt/105619894_zpid/2-_beds/0-70000_price/0-257_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/42.51994,-90.186768,42.301182,-90.55584_rect/11_zm/
that cottage is super cute! Too small for dailynliving though, and no land with it.
I have entertained Galena in my mind and even go there online occasionally to look at real estate. There, Hermann, Eureka Springs, all attractive little touristy river towns on hills. I would like a tourist town, I would volunteer during the festivals and etc, although I suspect we would tire of drunkenness in Hermann.
we always said we would retire in Tennessee, so I havent even looked there yet (online, of course.)
That's the downside of preferring suburbs--a lack of anything resembling architecture. Personally, I prefer contemporary houses (think of a random bunch of boxcars and garden sheds stuck together) or vacation cottages (think beachy; sandy floors). My house is kind of an amalgam of the two, but that's impossible to find where I'm headed (and hard to find here). And I do like a view.
Teacher Terry
8-14-17, 12:37pm
I would buy a small house in town so when you can't drive you don't have to move again. WE moved into town 5 years ago and love it. It is nice to be able to walk places. I have done rural living with land when I lived in upstate NY but I was young. All that driving especially in snow gets old.
When I was younger, I wanted the place in the country and still think about it. But the reality is that I detest driving in today's driving culture plus I like the choices that living in the city provides. I don't want to be too far removed when I get older and then have to make a huge move again. Also, practical things like municipal water and wastewater, trash service, etc. Don't want to think about things like wells and septic systems. I am sticking with my formula - inner ring suburbs (no newer than early 60s) in an economically healthy city/town with colleges and/or universities. I can grow veggies in my yard, keep chickens etc yet there are beautiful, wild places close by if I need to escape. My brother lives on four acres in a remote, mountainous area and I wonder about him as he gets older. If one of your choices is living outside a town with a 20 minute drive, that would be my pick for the long haul.
awakenedsoul
8-14-17, 9:29pm
The older I get, the more I realize that I seem to have what a lot of people want in a retirement home. The two houses posted here are absolutely gorgeous! Prices in California are so much higher than in other states. Very interesting thread. Especially the part about people moving back after not being happy in their new houses. Our personalities and needs change as we get older, too. I might just do what my parents did, and put money into my current home and garden.
When I was younger, I wanted the place in the country and still think about it. But the reality is that I detest driving in today's driving culture
A few people in this thread have mentioned not being huge fans of driving. Autonomous cars will change that. I'm not sure it will happen in our lifetimes, but they promise to alter the "I don't like to drive" equation. What they are unlikely to alter, however, is the time it takes to get from Point A to Point B and the relative expense of traveling longer distances. So there still will be that.
I like small towns better than suburbs and better than cities. They tend to be more affordable, and I am phobic about city driving, and you can get a bigger yard.
If it wer ejust I, and not I and my DH, who has a whole shop full of tools and is happiest with a farm, I would live in a small town with excellent public transportation, within an hour of one of my kids. I can't afford where they all live as they live in cities and it is too expensive.
My ideal small town has a pool, a good public park, a great library, a choice of churches, a good coffeehouse, and friendly, pleasant people.
My happiest houses have been in small towns, where I could ride my bike to the grocery and library. But again, with the husband I have, we are pretty committed to being out in the country.
My last several houses have been selected for ease of living with the dogs, so fenced in yard is a must.
A bus ride from my kids, and I would be in heaven.
ToomuchStuff
8-15-17, 11:36am
A few people in this thread have mentioned not being huge fans of driving. Autonomous cars will change that. I'm not sure it will happen in our lifetimes, but they promise to alter the "I don't like to drive" equation. What they are unlikely to alter, however, is the time it takes to get from Point A to Point B and the relative expense of traveling longer distances. So there still will be that.
I miss the logic of a car driving for you, causing you to be a fan of driving a car?
Teacher Terry
8-15-17, 1:07pm
Because you don't have the stress of actually driving but are merely a passenger.
I was clearly born too soon; I swoon over the idea of an auto-auto!
I miss the logic of a car driving for you, causing you to be a fan of driving a car?
Most people I know would rather have root canal than drive. For them, autonomous vehicles will be a godsend. Me, I think I'll keep my manual-transmission I-drive-it car as long as I can. :)
I would also be concerned about finding something that will be age in place-able. My parents, shortly after they retired, moved from the house I grew up in, not a large house or a large plot of land, but still, moved into a condo in an elevator building. They were torn between getting a condo and purchasing the house I was raised in (we had rented it for 22 years and the landlord was a few years older than my parents and looking to retire/sell). Ultimately the condo won out, and it soon proved a good thing when my mom broke her ankle. But they also loved it every time it snowed and shoveling had to be done or every time the lawn got mowed, by the resident manager, or when the roof needed to be replaced and someone else had to manage that, etc.
Personally I don't need land. I've lived in apartments in dense cities my entire adult life so any single family house will seem fancy-pants to me even if the neighbors are only 15 feet away like Steve's. The convenience of the city is just too enticing. I like that we have a Safeway and a butcher and a fruit/veggie stand and a nice wine store all within 2 blocks, a library a ten minute walk (or 5 minute lightrail ride) away, and so on. If we had land I might grow a few veggies and perhaps even some chickens so that we didn't have to buy store stale eggs, and might even mess around with some carpentry projects, but anything more than a quarter acre would probably be wasted on us. A college town that has decent amenities and services but is cheaper than San Francisco would be perfect. But that's me. Not necessarily anyone else. Everyone has their own priorities. No matter where it is, though, we will likely rent for at least a few months and make sure that we like being there. I don't want to be like Iris's friends and make such an expensive mistake as buying a place that I want to sell a couple years later.
Most people I know would rather have root canal than drive. For them, autonomous vehicles will be a godsend. Me, I think I'll keep my manual-transmission I-drive-it car as long as I can. :)While not self-driving, my current car is the smartest vehicle I've ever driven. If I want to make a phone call, I just tell it who to dial, issue voice commands to change audio or climate control, there are front facing cameras which monitor lanes and alert me if I get too close to one or the other, my cruise control adjusts itself to compensate for slower vehicles I may approach, while stopped at a traffic light it alerts me when the car in front of me moves and the manufacturer assures me that the car will automatically stop if something blocks my path although I've never tested that feature, my high beams automatically switch to low when oncoming traffic is detected.
My problem with that sort of technology comes from the fact that those systems sometimes turn themselves off during inclement weather such as a heavy rain which can adversely affect visibility. What would an autonomous car do in that case?
It isn't the driving I detest, it's the way most people drive now. Speeding, running red lights, cutting others off. Does that happen less in smaller cities? I read about the trains and subways of most other developed countries and wish we had those choices.
iris lilies
8-16-17, 9:14am
Someone asked our friend who moved back to the city "when did you decide to move back?" And she said "I didnt decide, DH decided that we were moving after watching me sit on the sofa and cry every night." They had moved to the best zip code in St. Louis and found there was no way to engage with neighbors.
Yesterday we visited our very close friends at their new country place. For them, it will be a good move because she has always wanted to have a huge garden, chickens, and maybe goats. She has lived for 30'years in a city house with a yard so tiny, there isnt even room to park a car. So, she is like me, making gardens all over the neighborhood, but never really owning any of it. Now she has a huge flat piece of land that can hold an orchard, a huge vegetable harden, chikcens, other small animals.
It isn't the driving I detest, it's the way most people drive now. Speeding, running red lights, cutting others off. Does that happen less in smaller cities? I read about the trains and subways of most other developed countries and wish we had those choices.
Not to mention everyone's pet peeve--drivers looking down at their phones, texting. It's no coincidence that TV spots selling cars usually show them on deserted roads.
Someone asked our friend who moved back to the city "when did you decide to move back?" And she said "I didnt decide, DH decided that we were moving after watching me sit on the sofa and cry every night." They had moved to the best zip code in St. Louis and found there was no way to engage with neighbors.
....
I'm afraid this will be me (though I'm not a crier...) if I leave Washington. I'm attached to this part of the world; it never gets old to me.
I wonder what it is that speaks to us about a place and makes us feel at home. I've always been fascinated by that topic - the sense of place. It seems to be missing in so much of the US. as geography, history and culture are rearranged, replaced and or/forgotten. It doesn't seem like most people care about such things anymore.
I heard somewhere that pigeons are attracted to the place where they were conceived. (Or maybe I hallucinated it, the concept seems crazy.)
For me, that would be Victoria, BC. Fairly close.
I need hills, water, vegetation. Los Angeles feels like a crater to me; I was uneasy the whole time I was there. San Francisco, I was happy as a local clam, and I was transfixed by the sound in Seattle. I was born in coastal Astoria, maybe that's the influence.
catherine
8-16-17, 12:26pm
I wonder what it is that speaks to us about a place and makes us feel at home. I've always been fascinated by that topic - the sense of place.
I agree. I think my tooling around on Ancestry.com has only solidified it for me. My ancestors landed and settled in Massachusetts and Connecticut and that's where 90% of us stayed. (I'm a rebel--I moved to New Jersey). It's one of the reasons going back to my New England roots by moving to VT appeals to me. If I had no kids and my DH wasn't around or didn't care, I'd probably move back to CT. I miss being near the water and near the family I have left there.
I wonder what it is that speaks to us about a place and makes us feel at home. I've always been fascinated by that topic - the sense of place.
DH and I had moved a lot in our lives, before and after we married. About 9 years ago (hard to imagine that long ago), DH and I talked to a realtor about moving closer to our children. After he left us with his sales proposal, DH got very quiet in the dining area and I, sitting in the living room. started to cry with a pain in my gut that I had never had about a place. He came and looked at me with the most beautiful tender expression on his face saying, "we're finally home, aren't we?" He was right.
I love this area because - let me count the ways- similar values to the community, lovely seasonal climate with mild winters, beautiful lake beaches, phenomenal year-round food production, accessibility by car/transit to all the art attractions I could want, walkability in my current home, feeling safe and secure, good services of all kinds... I needed some modification to my front concrete steps. A contractor was doing a large project next door so I walked over and asked his opinion on what was involved in the modification; $300 2 days later and it is done at the same time as the large job. Another quote I had received last fall for a much larger effort but the same result was over $2000. I also discovered halfway through that he had been a neighbour of mine when he was about 12 years old or so.
Is finding a 'sense of place' when things that are important to you line up together at one spot? Can you only find it if you explore by moving or by defining what is most important to you and looking for it? Or as we did, by the pain at the thought of leaving a treasured area?
Great thoughts, razz.
You are lucky to have had that visceral response to what you were feeling about moving.
I have to say there's no real love lost by leaving NJ. We don't have a strong social life here at all. But I do love my house. It looked like a crap hole for a couple of decades because we had no money in the early years. Now my kids come to visit and I think there's a part of them that feels cheated. We've finally had the means to fix it up a little. And I mean A LITTLE. It's still no palace. But there's also no more cracked 70's pink tiles in the bathroom; no more yucky scratched vinyl tile flooring, no more burned formica kitchen counter.
But I do have a yard with 3 raised beds, gardens with perennials I chose one at a time, a bathroom DH and I built ourselves after choosing to demo the old one on one New Year's Eve. We have our own home offices several rooms apart. We have a bazillion memories of our kids over the past 32 years.
Shoot, razz, now you have me crying, too! :)
Teacher Terry
8-16-17, 1:54pm
IL: I am confused about your friend's reaction because she still lived in the same town and could visit her old neighbors. I could see if they had moved to a different town. I have lived only in 1 town where i was friends with my neighbors. My kids were small and at night we sat outside and watched them play and we became friends. We live in an old neighborhood and we are friendly with our neighbors. When I lived in suburbs you mostly don't know your neighbors.
iris lilies
8-16-17, 2:06pm
IL: I am confused about your friend's reaction because she still lived in the same town and could visit her old neighbors. I could see if they had moved to a different town. I have lived only in 1 town where i was friends with my neighbors. My kids were small and at night we sat outside and watched them play and we became friends. We live in an old neighborhood and we are friendly with our neighbors. When I lived in suburbs you mostly don't know your neighbors.
Here in our victorian village you know everyone, you see people all the time out and about. You go into neighborhood restaurants and there are people you know. You go to the movie theater across town and there are people you know. You go grocery shopping two moles away and there are people you know, easy.
Neighbors stop,and chat when they are outside. Be ause a lot of people park on the street, we see each other coming and going.
The formal appointment to see old friends means smeone has to call ahead, set a time, prepare the event, etc.
Sure, she can make a formal appointment to see people, but our concerts in the park, the Friday night cokctail parties, etc. are all informal drop -in events to see people you know.
she was unable to engage the attention of people in the snooty suburb. People dont know their neighbors in the suburbs, as you say.
Teacher Terry
8-16-17, 2:10pm
IL: I totally get it now. why did they ever move in the first place? It sounds awesome to me.
the place where they were conceived.
I was conceived in Denver and both sets of great-grandparents settled in Colorado. All of those ancestors including my parents are buried here. I always craved the sight of mountains and rivers. Being stuck in the flatlands of Texas never felt quite right though I grew to appreciate the terrain there and the friendliness of folks before the invasion of recent transplants. I do know that since we moved to this house in Colorado, that the little street we live on is 10 times friendlier and less pretentious so that feels more like home.
While not self-driving, my current car is the smartest vehicle I've ever driven.
Our daughter has a new car which has a lot of the driving-aid technology you mentioned. As someone who drives as if failure at the task would kill me, I find a lot of it unnerving -- the lights and buzzing that indicate the car is nearing a shoulder, the nav screen's switch to the corner cameras when turning, and, especially, the first time I was in the car when the automatic stop-start kicked in at a traffic light. I'm sure it's all a matter of getting used to it. I wonder, though, if I'm not getting out of all this tech what I should because I'm already attentive and moving my head while driving and all that.
I also wonder how much it's going to cost to replace an electric remote-control self-defosting tinted side-view mirror with a turn-signal indicator and a camera when someone knocks it off pulling out of the garage.
My problem with that sort of technology comes from the fact that those systems sometimes turn themselves off during inclement weather such as a heavy rain which can adversely affect visibility. What would an autonomous car do in that case?
I understand this is a topic of some discussion as these vehicles hit the road. What I've read most recently is that control is returned to the "driver" after some warnings. But the person in that seat may not be in a position of being ready to take control. Then what? Similarly, if all the cars drive themselves except in the really rough stuff, what kind of skills will new drivers need to acquire in coming years? And how will they keep them up without practice? Will license renewal depend on passing a random situational test in a driving simulator? The technology behind autonomous driving is interesting to me, but the social and design issues behind it fascinates me.
iris lilies
8-16-17, 2:54pm
IL: I totally get it now. why did they ever move in the first place? It sounds awesome to me.
They are 70 years old and had a 150 year old house of 4,000 sq ft in 3 stories plus basement.
It is interesting watching the original pioneers here age. Most of them have been moving out, but a few hunker down and find property here in imaginative ways. One couple took two tiny houses and connected them for their retirement home. Another couple built a small two story house, a sort of carriage house looking thing, in the extra lot of their huge old house. Another couple built a master suite on the first floor of their old Victorian house. Another couple is building a brand new comventional looking replica Victorian house, but it will have a full bath and master bedroom suite on the first floor. The owner said he will never need to go ipstairs.
All of these builds were to age out here, a neighborhood that has precious few small and one story dwellings.
Teacher Terry
8-16-17, 3:12pm
That is too bad that there are few smaller homes or ones with a bedroom on the first floor. If you had that you could just shut the 2nd floor off. My Mom never went upstairs except to clean before we would be coming home and sleeping in those rooms.
Hmmm. Maybe it's the introverts who inhabit the suburbs. Of course, the PNW is famous for its avoidance of social interactions anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
"48th in extroversion!" No wonder I love it here!
iris lilies
8-20-17, 9:03am
Well, after writing that there is no acreage in the town of Hermann that suits us, a property came on the market. We are seeing it today. Will let you know how it is, with photos!
catherine
8-20-17, 10:06am
Well, after writing that there is no acreage in the town of Hermann that suits us, a property came on the market. We are seeing it today. Will let you know how it is, with photos!
Oh, wow! Yes, keep us posted, IL!
We are going to VT next weekend and looking at a couple of places. There are a few places around the lake for $150k. If they are in nice communities, where I wouldn't feel isolated, and I could still grow stuff, and have a nice view, I'll be happy.
Here is a photo of the view from the back patio which faces East. That is the perfect orientation. It is one acre and it is just down the street from one of the oldest wineries in the country.
1885
Hmm, maybe this image is less blurry--edited to say well, now this one is upside down.
1886
Upside-down or right-side up, it looks beautiful! How was the house?
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb111/kprp/IMG_1330_zpshafexdns.jpg
Still trying before I move on to house description.
So, here is the Realtor.com listing.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1027-Stone-Hill-Hwy_Hermann_MO_65041_M74380-71491
The house is funky. It is funny, and has some parts I could get fond of. Has some parts that are pretty awful. It has been cobbled together over decades.
You people think I don't listen to you, haha, but I thought of razz's post on this thread the thread about moving. She talked about feeling unsettled without a home base. I might feel too unsettled if we had two domiciles.
Two houses could mean I dont live here nor there. I dont know.
This property is pretty damn big for a second home. dH rather likes it, and says that if we ever buy property in Hermann, this one is it. The location and setting (for
Hermann, not saying any place, just Hermann) is ideal. I need to shut up about Hermann if we dont buy this one, he says.
The land slopes, but not as badly as we feared. dH says we would terrace it. Grapes are grown all around us, on the hills.
Keep in mind that this is in the village of Herman, it is not out in the country.
I keep asking myself, why do I feel compelled to have huge lots of iris and lilies? What about deer, there are deer roaming these hills? That would affect my ability to grow lilies, deer eat lilies. But not iris! And not daffodils!!!
But my gut yesterday and today says: this s too much, another property to maintan is too much, and it isnt the best looking place on the block, so we would have some obligation to fix up the front. At least it is in a very very safe neighborhood and I know it would not be burglerized if we were gone from it a lot. too many eyes and ears watching it.
Can you buy it now, and decide later?
I love the view from the back yard. I see trees, though. I hope you wouldn't be cutting those.
One house is enough for me, I can't fathom having more. Unless the second were a condo in Maui or BC or something.
Can you buy it now, and decide later?
I love the view from the back yard. I see trees, though. I hope you wouldn't be cutting those.
One house is enough for me, I can't fathom having more. Unless the second were a condo in Maui or BC or something.
Its cheap enough that we could write a check. See, that is the problem with us and real estate, we are attracted to crappy little old houses that dont costs much to buy, but that ultimately cost a lot because they need tons of work.
No, we wouldnt cut those trees you see. There are some small scrubby trees close to the house that need to be taken down, but the land we want to plant is pretty much open. We would keep a couple of big trees by the house because they dont hurt anything.
Its cheap enough that we could write a check. See, that is the problem with us and real estate, we are attracted to crappy little old houses that dont costs much to buy, but that ultimately cost a lot because they need tons of work.
No, we wouldnt cut those trees you see. There are some small scrubby trees close to the house that need to be taken down, but the land we want to plant is pretty much open. We would keep a couple of big trees by the house because they dont hurt anything.
Sleep on it, then go with your instincts, say I.
I too love the funky old house look. I think that house is very workable. Love that huge porch and the kitchen is about the same size as the one I had earlier in life. It is just messy because it is full of stuff from many decades and there is too much stuff out (probably due to lack of storage).
More important are the bones of the house and the location. But I agree about having two houses. I would not do well with two. Twice as much worry and work since they are not static.
It sounds as though you are feeling your way through wants and cautions, IL. May I suggest that you add this question? What do I/we want when we are 80? Answer that first as all the investment of your time, efforts and love will give you what you aim for.
I love the house and I would buy it, but we have had two houses at times, over overlap where we bought first.
Would you consider buying it and renting it out for a couple of years in order to decide if you want to move there, or your neighborhood goes south?
I think it's a great house. Can't believe the price.
iris lilies
8-21-17, 10:55am
Would you consider buying it and renting it out for a couple of years in order to decide if you want to move there, or your neighborhood goes south?
I think it's a great house. Can't believe the price.
No to renting it, there is absolutely no advantage to that.
My neighborhood is only going south in ways that I and old timers recognize. The new people think they are in trendy cool land, and prices here will hold, for my lifetime, anyway.
Last night I watched a video of an acrimonious Hermann City Council meeting and became energized by it. haha! It reminded me of when we went to a neighborhood meeting here where I live, before we bought a house, and there was much shouting and controversy. I like being in an area where people fight for what they believe to be right for their village.
Dumping real estate in Hermann takes a long time. i know because I have watched that market for a long time. Once we buy something it will not be jettisoned easily.
SteveinMN
8-21-17, 12:50pm
Ahh, like so many big decisions, it does not arrive when you want it to.
The house looks good from the pictures. Good location, nice property.
How adaptable is the house to being a "forever" home? How's the Missouri wine business doing? What happens to property values if Stone Hill goes down (unlikely but I've seen company towns before and don't know how close Hermann is to one)? IOW what's the downside risk aside from managing a second property that may not be easy to get rid of? Would your current property be easy to sell? Would it be OK (for both of you) to move lock, stock, and barrel to Hermann if you decided you no longer liked where you were? Not that I need answers; these are just questions which come to my mind if I were considering making such a move.
Teacher Terry
8-21-17, 1:04pm
I would not want to have 2 houses permanently. But I like to feel settled. It also seems like you love your neighbors and that they are a big part of your social life. I would think you might regret giving that up like your friends did.
iris lilies
8-22-17, 9:28am
It sounds as though you are feeling your way through wants and cautions, IL. May I suggest that you add this question? What do I/we want when we are 80? Answer that first as all the investment of your time, efforts and love will give you what you aim for.
This is not a property for our 80's. Steep, big lot--nope. But I am likely to be dead by then, and DH will have to deal with it. We probably have 10-12 years there, assuming health remains good. On the other hand, it does have two bedrooms, bathroom and kitchen all on one floor.
Today I am thinking about the steep slope of the land, and I worry that it might do a number on my knees. It would be horrible to start up a big garden and find two years later the slope causes pain. But
I think regular exercise and strengthening muscle around the knee helps that.
If it turns out that I am the one left alone,
I will have no trouble selling it at a loss. We dont buy and hold real estate as investment. We dont pay much for properties.
iris lilies
8-22-17, 9:38am
Ahh, like so many big decisions, it does not arrive when you want it to.
The house looks good from the pictures. Good location, nice property.
How adaptable is the house to being a "forever" home? How's the Missouri wine business doing? What happens to property values if Stone Hill goes down (unlikely but I've seen company towns before and don't know how close Hermann is to one)? IOW what's the downside risk aside from managing a second property that may not be easy to get rid of? Would your current property be easy to sell? Would it be OK (for both of you) to move lock, stock, and barrel to Hermann if you decided you no longer liked where you were? Not that I need answers; these are just questions which come to my mind if I were considering making such a move.
It wont be easy to get rid of in any case. Hermann is a tiny tourist town that struggles to keep civic institutions alive. You are so right to ask about the fiscal health of Stonehill Winery! I thought about that, what happens to my street if that place foes belly up? I suspect the winery would would not be empty long. It is a stunning old complex, but it is not huge like some of the old abandoned German breweries here in St. louis so it would not take mega millions to buy and run it.
I have to wonder how long this obsession with wine will last in the tourist industry. Hermann is a travel destination for people from the midwest, but its not a national destination. I have to confess that I do not like and do not drink
Missouri wines, but if I move to Hermann, that will change.
Don't underestimate the invigorating effect of moving to a new place and dealing with a new set of problems, and having a new set of discoveries. I have enjoyed that part of our peregrinations very much.
Maybe you could get a landscaping gig at the winery.
Don't underestimate the invigorating effect of moving to a new place and dealing with a new set of problems, and having a new set of discoveries. I have enjoyed that part of our peregrinations very much.
Maybe you could get a landscaping gig at the winery.
I love that positive attitude, Tybee, as DH and I are moving towards breaking through the trifecta of inertia, comfort and nostalgia in the quest for our "3rd stage of life" adventure. I'll keep that advice in mind.
iris lilies
8-22-17, 10:06am
Don't underestimate the invigorating effect of moving to a new place and dealing with a new set of problems, and having a new set of discoveries. I have enjoyed that part of our peregrinations very much.
Maybe you could get a landscaping gig at the winery.
oh dude, two years ago
I sat there drinking wine and saw their pallid, boring granny iris and thought " these people need some real iris" so yeah, a little volunteer landscaping is on my agenda.
catherine
8-22-17, 11:46am
oh dude, two years ago
I sat there drinking wine and saw their pallid, boring granny iris and thought " these people need some real iris" so yeah, a little volunteer landscaping is on my agenda.
Sounds like a win-win to me!! Maybe they'll pay you in wine! :devil: That's an offer I'd take!
IL, I looked up info on the Hermann Wine Trail and boy is that beautiful. It reminds me a lot of the Texas Hill Country. Good choice!
the trifecta of inertia, comfort and nostalgia
We are in the middle of having left those three things behind so just a reminder that the "getting there" can be a lot harder than you ever imagined. Dreaming about it is one thing...I guess if you have the luxury of keeping your other house, that's a different thing. We bought an older house (can't afford two houses) and are going on four months of discombobulation, discomfort and wondering about the future plus spending a LOT of money to make it feel like home and in some cases, just bring it up to code. But...no regrets. The thought of never trying this big move and remaining comfortable was not something I wanted to do. In my darker moments though, I dream of just renting:)
We are in the middle of having left those three things behind so just a reminder that the "getting there" can be a lot harder than you ever imagined. Dreaming about it is one thing...I guess if you have the luxury of keeping your other house, that's a different thing. We bought an older house (can't afford two houses) and are going on four months of discombobulation, discomfort and wondering about the future plus spending a LOT of money to make it feel like home and in some cases, just bring it up to code. But...no regrets. The thought of never trying this big move and remaining comfortable was not something I wanted to do. In my darker moments though, I dream of just renting:)
So glad you have no regrets, because I know that you've shared some of the struggles here. I totally get it. I can't afford two homes either, but I'm also very reluctant to just put the "for sale" sign on the front lawn tomorrow, even if this weekend's visit to VT convinces us that we've found the right place to buy. I saw a house within our budget online in the town we want to live in, and it's a good price for a 4-season house but still in a lake town (not on the lake, and there was no mention of deeded lake access). I tell DH not to be sucked in by the decorating because that's superficial and it artificially inflates the value of the property--but this little house was just my style. In fact our cabinets were the same color, the appliances were the same, and they also had the same built-in banquettes that we have. It has a nice flat yard with lots of space for raised beds. It feels like a mini-me of my house in NJ. And it's 4 season. We could sell our house and put a good amount in retirement and own this house outright. We'll see what happens this weekend.
Catherine, I hope this turns out for you; it sounds perfect.
It is so rare that a house is a good match for me that it's almost painful not to be able to just go for it.
iris lilies
8-23-17, 10:37am
I am STRONGLY ambivilent about buying this Hermann house. One day I am all in for it, the next day I am relieved that we didnt take it on.
One thing that has come out of discussions is that DH articulated he doesnt find going south in the winter appealing. I think he is right, that would not really work for us unless it was a winter vacation for no more than 3 weeks. We are strongly homebodies, we need a home base that is deep and wide. We take our stimulation from settling in deep roots and noirishing them. That is why a picturesque community, with strong institutions and liveliness, is important because that stimulates our imaginations and incolvement beyond t just our own property.
Our "big garden," while only 3/4 of a mile away from where I live, is really a different world. The brothers shooting each other over there is taking a toll on my fondness for the place. I am sick of that atmosphere. It is bothering DH too, probably more than it bothers me. We would sell that place and give up the land I rent from the city in order to have a "big garden" in Hermann.
edited to add:
We are going to Europe for two weeks, so if this house in Hermann sells while we are gone, that is fine, the decision is made for me.
Not having to dodge bullets would be a strong motivator for me...
catherine
8-23-17, 10:45am
I agree with you about going south in the winter. Doesn't appeal to me, either.
So, how are you going to make your decision? How do you do it with no regrets?
1. The Road Not Taken
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
5
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
10
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
15
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
catherine
8-23-17, 10:53am
Here are the items on my window shopping list this weekend:
#1: the main reason we decided to go up there to shop around this weekend: this is a steal for the area, but it can't ever be 4-season due to septic size. It needs work, but there is a possibility for rental income since it's in a really desirable summer lakefront area. Or we just live there from April to October and then get a off-season apartment on the Jersey Shore--splitting up our time between the VT kids and my NJ son.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/98-Goodsell-Pt_Colchester_VT_05446_M32393-47537
#2: This is the four-season one I mentioned that looks my style. We would pull up all roots in NJ and have the ability to just migrate up here for the long haul. DH would have to find a place to park a boat (he wants to get a cheap used one)
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/49-Rail-Rd_Colchester_VT_05446_M44620-80376
There are others, but these are the two that I'm most interested at the moment. My realtor is trying to get us out to the Champlain islands--South Hero and North Hero (the place in which Bernie Sanders bought a controversial summer home). But I'm worried about the isolation factor. We'll see.
iris lilies
8-23-17, 11:00am
Catherine, I hope this turns out for you; it sounds perfect.
It is so rare that a house is a good match for me that it's almost painful not to be able to just go for it.
Wow, you are picky! But that is fine, especially for a homebody.
I think of myself as adaptable to any house that meets my aesthetic requirements. I think of the house as being there,a permenant space, and I am just an occupier for the time being. I adapt to the house, not the other way around.
iris lilies
8-23-17, 11:06am
I agree with you about going south in the winter. Doesn't appeal to me, either.
So, how are you going to make your decision? How do you do it with no regrets?
Firstly, i accept that there will be regrets regardless of the road taken. DH and
i can make anything work, we are a powerful team when it comes to accomplishing stuff. But when we take on X, that means we dont do Y, and I will have some regrets for giving up Y.
but I do wonder about things like--my knees. My right hand which was giving me shooting pains yesterday after weeding.
How much longer do we have to traverse those slopes in Hermann? I am 63 years old. Fruit trees take 3-4 years to produce, so DH wouldnt see his orchard produce until then.
If his physical ability goes south, we are done. He is a working fool but this isnt a place we would want to hire bunches dne but we could certainly hire mowing done. The financial risk is something we can easily take on, yet running a full second property will take $$$.
Todays discussion has helped my chrystalize the central question: how do
I want to spend my time in the next few years? Three days a week in
Herman seems fine. The house itself has all hard surface floors (even if they are all,different, ugh!) so cleaning floors wouldnt be a big strain.
iris lilies
8-23-17, 11:20am
Here are the items on my window shopping list this weekend:
#1: the main reason we decided to go up there to shop around this weekend: this is a steal for the area, but it can't ever be 4-season due to septic size. It needs work, but there is a possibility for rental income since it's in a really desirable summer lakefront area. Or we just live there from April to October and then get a off-season apartment on the Jersey Shore--splitting up our time between the VT kids and my NJ son.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/98-Goodsell-Pt_Colchester_VT_05446_M32393-47537
#2: This is the four-season one I mentioned that looks my style. We would pull up all roots in NJ and have the ability to just migrate up here for the long haul. DH would have to find a place to park a boat (he wants to get a cheap used one)
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/49-Rail-Rd_Colchester_VT_05446_M44620-80376
There are others, but these are the two that I'm most interested at the moment. My realtor is trying to get us out to the Champlain islands--South Hero and North Hero (the place in which Bernie Sanders bought a controversial summer home). But I'm worried about the isolation factor. We'll see.
Both are really nice! That cabin is attractive because of the lake, but the 4 season house is stellar.
If you can squeese down to 7XX sq feet, good for you! That is proving to be impossible for us. DH, Mr. Fixit, needs to have a basement full of tools to fix stuff. Also, he doesnt let go of anything, so that worries me a little about having another house to fill up with crap.
catherine
8-23-17, 11:26am
Todays discussion has helped my chrystalize the central question: how do
I want to spend my time in the next few years? Three days a week in
Herman seems fine. The house itself has all hard surface floors (even if they are all,different, ugh!) so cleaning floors wouldnt be a big strain.
Yes, that's the big question! My life would be enriched by being in just enough house: I played with the idea of a condo or townhouse, but what I cherish now is being able to step outside freely, not see many neighbors, except the ones cutting through the park, and lie down on my lounger, reading a book and enjoying the fruits of my labor in terms of my little gardens, humble as they are.
I also want enough space so that DH and I don't feel like we're breathing all over each other 24/7.
But I don't want to have to clean 3 bathrooms, or huge swaths of flooring.
I want to be able to walk out the door and walk either with purpose (to a store for instance) or aimlessly (down a dirt path with the dog for instance). I want cultural amenities close by and enough people in the area for me to be able to find a few like-minded souls. I want to be able to take art classes or dance classes. I want to be able to volunteer on permaculture projects.
I want to spend more time with the kids up north for sure. I miss the casual conversations we have when they're down here on holidays.
I love the 4-season but would query the insulation quality in Vt area every time. A cold house can be miserable but if you go into it knowing that it will need to be done or not is very important.
I love the 4-season but would query the insulation quality in Vt area every time. A cold house can be miserable but if you go into it knowing that it will need to be done or not is very important.
We live in Northern Michigan in a small house, about the size of the 4-season one (I also LOVE that one, so pretty and so cool, move in ready!) and it is quite snug and warm all winter. We do live on a farm and we do insulate the outside with straw bales, which we then use in the garden. It has been a wonderful practice and saved us much in propane.
catherine
8-23-17, 12:15pm
We live in Northern Michigan in a small house, about the size of the 4-season one (I also LOVE that one, so pretty and so cool, move in ready!) and it is quite snug and warm all winter. We do live on a farm and we do insulate the outside with straw bales, which we then use in the garden. It has been a wonderful practice and saved us much in propane.
I love the idea of straw bales to insulate the house in the winter and garden in the summer! In fact if I were a few years younger, I'd buy a cheap piece of land and build a straw bale house. My permaculture teacher has built several, and believes them to be the best option for sustainable home building.
Another thing to consider (though we'd all rather not) is how we would get on in the place we choose if...we lost our significant other. I think I think too much:(
catherine
8-23-17, 12:39pm
Another thing to consider (though we'd all rather not) is how we would get on in the place we choose if...we lost our significant other. I think I think too much:(
I'm the opposite of iris lilies: I anticipate (though I hope not) that my DH will predecease me. His favorite picture, which he loves and hangs in his office, is a 17th century engraving of a guy sitting under a tree--fat, drinking, smoking, and smiling. So, yes, pinkytoe, I think that's a reasonable question. My uncle was a very successful real estate businessman and the family patriarch. He and his second wife built two gorgeous homes in CT and in Marathon, FL. Then he died at age 68. She wasted no time selling those properties and moving to a small house. So, I'd rather be able to stay put in a place that's comfortable to be in single or "partnered" than go through the grief of losing my husband AND my home.
Catherine, I believe you need to keep looking. Leased property? Is that common in Vermont?
I think you need a little more space (but what do I know?) I see pros and cons in both houses, but I bet you can find something that comprises what you want--with civilization included.
If I were to choose, it would be the first one, I think. I like the leafy privacy. It reminds me of the first house I lived in, on a street called the Ridge Trail on the Oregon Coast. And I'm a fool for water views; I proved that when I bought a house that had one.
iris lilies
8-23-17, 12:42pm
Another thing to consider (though we'd all rather not) is how we would get on in the place we choose if...we lost our significant other. I think I think too much:(
I already think about that. I would jettison all real estate if Dh died and buy something appropriate to my new situation.Alsthough it is possible that I would hang on to our current house, dont know.
It is far more difficult to decide about real estate when he, or I, become physically frail, and gradually fade in effectiveness.
Dont you think I have thought about him dying and then "his" side of the garden space is also mine? We are always in competitin for space.
catherine
8-23-17, 12:53pm
Catherine, I believe you need to keep looking. Leased property? Is that common in Vermont?
I think you need a little more space (but what do I know?) I see pros and cons in both houses, but I bet you can find something that comprises what you want--with civilization included.
If I were to choose, it would be the first one, I think. I like the leafy privacy. It reminds me of the first house I lived in, on a street called the Ridge Trail on the Oregon Coast. And I'm a fool for water views; I proved that when I bought a house that had one.
Yeah, the "leased" thing is a problem for me. The first one is on owned land, which makes it a plus. And leased land is not common at all in Vermont--I believe just maybe in areas like Malletts Bay where investors had the foresight to buy up land and then collect the "leasing fees" from people. Some of the leased land is fairly risk-free--i.e. 20 or 40 year leases. But in other cases, leased land really puts you at risk. There was an article and video in the local newspaper how homes owned by generations of families were destroyed after the landowners evicted the families.
And yes, to your point, and also, IL's point, the space thing would be a challenge, but the idea is to DOWNsize. How can I save money if I expect to live in 2,000 sq feet forever?? I would love to just pull the trigger and get rid of the crap that's polluting my garage and basement. But, you have a point. I'll report back on our reconnaissance tour.
My brother's cottage (in Milton) is on leased land. The original family owned a whole big parcel with waterfront, and has collected rent from a whole bunch of folks, at least since I was a kid.
My brother's cottage (in Milton) is on leased land. The original family owned a whole big parcel with waterfront, and has collected rent from a whole bunch of folks, at least since I was a kid.
Yup. I remember you talking about Milton, and I'd be willing to look there. Looks like the only houses in Milton on Lake Champlain are way above my budget. I'm sure that the leased land thing is really about being able to get a cheap summer cottage if you're the lessee, and being able to charge a good amount of money for the lot, if you're the lessor.
iris lilies
8-23-17, 1:52pm
...And yes, to your point, and also, IL's point, the space thing would be a challenge, but the idea is to DOWNsize. How can I save money if I expect to live in 2,000 sq feet forever??...
sigh, just last night I talked with my 67 year old friend who, still working, cant live on her Social Security income. She also must have a downsized retirement house between 1500 and 2000 sq ft. She "must" have it because she WANTS it. It is just her in the household of 3,000 sq ft, no one else but she has 5 dogs, none of them small. She doesnt maintain the house she has, it needs a lot of work.
I talked to her about costs of maintenance but she doesnt recognize it. She also wants acreage, around 5 acres. This is someone who never does any exercising, ever. She walks from her house to her car, that is it.
She will have to hire out all work. It makes no sense to me.
Iris lilies, it does not make sense but is so very common. My mother in law always said she wanted to live way out in the country. But she needed a lot of services to even live in the town in a tiny house. The two did not mesh at all. Thankfully, we got her here in a senior apartment where she has or can get all the services she could need until a nursing home or hospice.
Another thing to consider (though we'd all rather not) is how we would get on in the place we choose if...we lost our significant other. I think I think too much:(
Not at all, pinkytoe. That's an important consideration in discussing any long-term/"forever" home.
Friends of ours are looking at relocating somewhere in the northern Midwest in the next year or two. He's about 15 years older than she is. He has to be within commuting distance of a branch of the company at which he works. She can work at home. She has some serious chronic illnesses. He himself has back issues serious enough to miss work for days sometimes. They'd like some "acreage".She doesn't want to drive, so they can't be too far from town. So how much space -- which she really cannot care for and which he will have to manage, work schedule and back pain permitting -- do they go for? How far out do they move, away from "amenities", medical specialists -- and family? Does such a property exist for the money they have to spend on it?
It's a juggling act. And, while it's a little early for them at their age, they do need to think about one of them being in the house solo, particularly her. They're smart to consider this before spending what money they have on a property that may not be easy to unload at anything resembling its purchase price.
When I went to visit my aunts and cousins in CT a couple of weeks ago, I as marveling at my aunt/cousin's home (I'm always marveling at it. It's just gorgeous. It was a nursery/landscapt business--they have a ton of land, several outbuildings, and a huge farmhouse. They BEGGED me to stay because no one occupies at least half of the house.
A few years ago, they were afraid they'd have to sell. My cousin teaches piano lessons. My aunt had retired from her electrolysis business. They had no money and it was hard to come up with the property taxes. So after exploring downsizing, they decided on a reverse mortgage. Once my aunt dies, I don't know what my cousin will do. She said that the reverse mortgage can keep her there for a long time, maybe the rest of her life. I've heard reverse mortgages are a bad deal financially, but in her case, it might be the best option.
But there's quite a difference between 750 sq ft and 2000. Maybe split the difference and shoot for 1375? That's about the ideal size for me, so maybe I'm projecting...
But there's quite a difference between 750 sq ft and 2000. Maybe split the difference and shoot for 1375? That's about the ideal size for me, so maybe I'm projecting...
Well, my husband's pick is closer in size to your ideal size: this one is 1191 sq. ft, and it's a really cute house, right across the street from the water, but I'm afraid it's too far north for me.
https://farmandforest.com/listing/4651815/54-the-pines-north-georgia-vt-05478/
I would hope to be able to fit into something less than 1,000 if I can find something affordable in a vibrant community.
The outside is lovely, but apparently Vermonters love being "notty!" Which might drive me batty.:help:
Otherwise, the size and location work for me.
I've lived in less than 1000 sq ft before, so I suppose I could do it again if I had to.
The outside is lovely, but apparently Vermonters love being "notty!" Which might drive me batty.:help:
Otherwise, the size and location work for me.
I've lived in less than 1000 sq ft before, so I suppose I could do it again if I had to.
Yeah, shiplap is the new knotty pine according to Joanna and Chip on HGTV. I don't mind it much.
Realtor just emailed us that she set up 4 appointments, so I'm really excited.
Wow that's a lot of knotty pine... Personally I'd have to paint most of it white because I think winter inside that house would seem kind of dark. Or maybe just get a lot of LED lighting to make it bright and cheery without going broker paying for electricity. Otherwise it looks like a pretty cool place.
Wishing you fun and joy in your explorations this weekend! It is all part of the adventure of being alive when you go searching for the next step to take in making your home base. It is not the house that makes a home but the thought of the people living in it whatever size or location is chosen.
Catherine--how is the house hunt going? Report back when you get a chance!
Catherine--how is the house hunt going? Report back when you get a chance!
We're still up here--we'll be flying back this afternoon, but I'm satisfied with the touring around we did.
On Saturday, we met the realtor who took us to the run-down camp for $149 which is right in Mallett's Bay. It was REALLY run down, but in addition, there were other problems. It has long rows of very steep steps, which DH didn't like at all, especially for the grandkids. There is no septic. It's a plastic 1000 gallon tank that has to be removed once a year. It would require a ton of money to seal cracks and replace windows. There was barely enough parking for one car. Although I was willing to consider a fixer upper, this one is not the right one.
We also saw two on South Hero. One of those two was even worse than the first one we saw in Malletts Bay, and at $269k we said no thanks. We drove in and drove out. The third one had a beautiful view of the lake and a nice gentle slope to the water so that grandkids could easily tip-toe in without having to navigate stairs down a cliff. Again, DH was not taken by the house itself--looked like it hadn't been touched since the 60s--which doesn't bother me, but the neighborhood just didn't feel right.
We also headed up through Milton and Georgia and saw a nice little house in a cute lake community for $134k. It was very remote though. We drove for miles and miles without seeing ANY business at all. We also drove south to Charlotte and Ferrisburg, but we keep going back to Malletts Bay as the best bet.
But we did see one house that was really amazing. It was seasonal, but it was really perfect. On a very private promontory on an island peninsula right off Mallett's Bay. The house was just adorable, and it had an outside deck and easy access to the lake. It was nestled in the trees, and no lawn to mow. You could feel like Robinson Crusoe, but you drive off the small island and you are right in the heart of Malletts Bay with amenities right there, and my son only 12 minutes away. We brought the kids with us and they just went wild for this one.
Problem is: the island has been owned by the same family for 140 years. They lease the land. This whole lease thing seems weird to begin with, but the lease land in this situation would feel like being a sharecropper for the lord of the manor.
Also, as you might expect with such a perfect house, it was above my budget, but if I sold my NJ residence it would still put money in my pocket. And the house will definitely appreciate.
My instinct is to wait out the winter, get BIL's house sold (closing will be mid-late September), decide if we want to cut bait in NJ, and then buy something in February or March.
Thanks for asking!
What a productive trip! I really like the way you are thinking it all through. That leased land thing is a real conundrum-- there is one in Maine on leased land and due to your comments about leased land, I was taking it off the possible list.
You sure don't want to spend a lot of money to feel like "a sharecropper for the lord of the manor", lol,
catherine
9-18-17, 10:06am
Part II of the Vermont house hunting.
Another productive weekend. We drove up the eastern side of Lake Champlain and explored all the towns and all the neighborhoods/houses I had put on my list to drive by. We were able to yay/nay each one.
So yesterday we went up to the Champlain Islands, and I found a house that I really like!! My son in particular has been hounding me ever since we saw it.
Pros:
direct waterfront
cute house
Year round
Concrete dock
Guy wants to sell his boat for only $1500
No dangerous drop-off to beach, but set back
Lots of great southern exposure for growing
Intersting land concept: you own 1/4 acre, but share 2 acres with 10 families, reducing taxes
Great family spot
Cheap
Cons
A little farther than I want to be
I'd have to sacrifice the Burlington vibe for a remote island vibe and I'm not 100% sure what that will be like.
Don't know if I'll like those other 9 families
Not really a great place to get sick in (to jp1's point--not "age-in-place-able"). I'm healthy, but DH has some issues.
My son is ALL ABOUT IT, but I told him, it's really a case of me asking the question "Who am I??" City girl or country girl? Where am I going to be happy? How do I figure that out before I spend a lot of money?
Insights?
Part II of the Vermont house hunting.
Another productive weekend. We drove up the eastern side of Lake Champlain and explored all the towns and all the neighborhoods/houses I had put on my list to drive by. We were able to yay/nay each one.
So yesterday we went up to the Champlain Islands, and I found a house that I really like!! My son in particular has been hounding me ever since we saw it.
Pros:
direct waterfront
cute house
Year round
Concrete dock
Guy wants to sell his boat for only $1500
No dangerous drop-off to beach, but set back
Lots of great southern exposure for growing
Intersting land concept: you own 1/4 acre, but share 2 acres with 10 families, reducing taxes
Great family spot
Cheap
Cons
A little farther than I want to be
I'd have to sacrifice the Burlington vibe for a remote island vibe and I'm not 100% sure what that will be like.
Don't know if I'll like those other 9 families
Not really a great place to get sick in (to jp1's point--not "age-in-place-able"). I'm healthy, but DH has some issues.
My son is ALL ABOUT IT, but I told him, it's really a case of me asking the question "Who am I??" City girl or country girl? Where am I going to be happy? How do I figure that out before I spend a lot of money?
Insights?
I think direct waterfront is wonderful for resale, and for your own use, of course. I think it is hard to go really wrong with direct waterfront. Year round is essential, I think. And a boat? So cool!
Would it be something you could resell or rent out if you got up there and your needs changed, and your found that it was too remote?
I thought where we moved would be too remote but now that I'm here, I feel like it is the center of the world and it no longer seems remote at all. So that can happen, your perspective can change as you grow accustomed to a new home.
I go for accessibility to services every time especially since I see people your age buying access to Lake Erie with great excitement. Shortly I am hearing of the challenges of getting to services like groceries, banking, healthcare especially in winter and then they sell and move back to where services are more readily available.
Some leave it too late and are trapped as the move is too much to cope with and they have lost their willingness to drive 3/4 of an hour. The problem is that they then don't know what else they should do - retirement homes or apartments in town. Neither is that appealing to me and nice apartments are in short supply.
ToomuchStuff
9-19-17, 9:39am
Part II of the Vermont house hunting.
Another productive weekend. We drove up the eastern side of Lake Champlain and explored all the towns and all the neighborhoods/houses I had put on my list to drive by. We were able to yay/nay each one.
So yesterday we went up to the Champlain Islands, and I found a house that I really like!! My son in particular has been hounding me ever since we saw it.
Pros:
direct waterfront
cute house
Year round
Concrete dock
Guy wants to sell his boat for only $1500
No dangerous drop-off to beach, but set back
Lots of great southern exposure for growing
Intersting land concept: you own 1/4 acre, but share 2 acres with 10 families, reducing taxes
Great family spot
Cheap
Cons
A little farther than I want to be
I'd have to sacrifice the Burlington vibe for a remote island vibe and I'm not 100% sure what that will be like.
Don't know if I'll like those other 9 families
Not really a great place to get sick in (to jp1's point--not "age-in-place-able"). I'm healthy, but DH has some issues.
My son is ALL ABOUT IT, but I told him, it's really a case of me asking the question "Who am I??" City girl or country girl? Where am I going to be happy? How do I figure that out before I spend a lot of money?
Insights?
Have you looked past the cute factor? Had an inspector?
Only $1500? Without knowing more, that could be an expensive rowboat/canoe, or a really needs work pontoon. (which would then be an expensive rowboat)
No dangerous drop off, also means that it is pretty level, and has there ever been flooding there? How far did it go up and how often is that rated to happen? (flood plain)
"Interesting land concept" Sounds like a term for a shared driveway. Great only in theory. What do you know about the other people? Do they live there, or is this a "camping spot", where they then think they can just come over and use your stuff? WHO maintains it (mowing, etc) and WHO spends the money mowing, etc. Who is in charge of collecting all the money from everybody to pay the taxes?
What is "a little farther". Have any pets that need vet services (and how close are they)? What services are needed by your spouse and how far away? City or country girl, well shouldn't that be COUPLE?
We have lived in the country at various distances from things. The house that was in upstate NY and remote from a grocery story (16 miles to grocery) and up side of a mountain on a dirt road really bothered me. Driving in winter was so horrible and I felt stranded a lot, living there alone much of the time. To get to a Target was an hour and half so we seldom went.
The house in SC on an island, 6 miles to grocery and 10 miles to town felt great because there was never a winter driving problem, just rain, and then you didn't go. IT was 50 minutes to the Bluffton Target and Hilton Head, but it was a pleasant, happy drive and we went a lot.
The house in MI is 15 miles from anything like a vet or doctor, although there is a gas station a mile from house, where you can buy mile and eggs, so you never feel stranded. This has felt like a very nice distance. Eveyrthing is within half an hour drive, including our wonderful airport. In the winter, I can feel very stranded and hate it when we get snowed in. I imagine Champlain Islands would be like that. HOw far to Burlington airport?
I tend to care most about airport and hospital. We are close enough to each.
If I had family nearby, airport would not matter, and I would be happy anywhere up to an hour drive. Public transportation would be a great thing. Do the islands you are looking at have elder transport-- some towns in Maine do, to drive you to doctor apt and grocery and things like that, with a little notice. That would make a big difference. There was terrible public transportation and cabs where we lived in upstate NY, but that was pre-uber.
Oh, and I disagree about the country girl/country couple thing. My husband and I feel differently about these distances and driving etc. and only time we ever chose wrong was when we neglected to factor in my strong feelings of unhappiness when in the remote remote location. Even a couple of miles closer to town, on a paved road, would have made a huge difference. So each party needs to think that through for themselves.
We've also known several couples who had plans to retire somewhere more scenic and/or remote and as they aged found that the medical access (or lack thereof) made the move less appealing. In all cases, they opted to stay in the city and age in place. Another thing to consider is home upkeep as you age.
Teacher Terry
9-19-17, 1:05pm
We moved into town 5 years ago from the burbs. I like to be close to everything. WE once shared a driveway entrance with the neighbor and it became a nightmare quickly because she was an alcoholic and he was crazy. He would block the entrance and we could not get our cars in or out. Legally not a lot we could do as we both owned it. WE finally cut the trees down on the other side of our house and drove over our lawn and on the sidewalk over the curb to get to the street when he would block us in. Fun times-not>:(
I would never live far away from amenities/necessities--at any age. Being within walking distance would be nice, but a short drive would be OK.
Thanks, everyone. You all raised really good points, and I'll address a few:
In terms of amenities:
3 minutes to the library
4 minute drive to a decent sized supermarket (small, really but they have everything I would need)
4 minute drive to a gas station
4 minute drive to church
4 minute drive to weekly farmer's market
6 minute drive to the nearest vet
6 minutes to a bank
13 minutes to the island medical center
30 minutes to Costco
34 minutes to UVM Medical Center/Hospital
35 minutes to Burlington Downtown
Regarding the shared space.. that is a concern, because I don't know the neighbors. You own your own land--small 1/4 or 1/3 acre plots, but the surrounding land, including lakefront, is 1.7 acres and is shared. The 10 families have their own little patch they're responsible for mowing.
Haven't had an inspector yet, but of course would get one after an offer would be made and accepted, and of course the sale would be contingent on an inspection
The couple who owns it put a lot of work into it. It's very small--600 sq ft. But seems to be pretty solid. It's not sitting on cinderblocks, like one of the houses we looked at.
We saw the boat. Of course that would not be a big deal, but my DH looked at it and it's a fine boat for just getting out into the lake and fishing. It has two motors.
Of course, I still have several concerns. You can't really swim in the lake--I don't know the algae content but there are lots of weeds. However, a top state park is only 10 minutes away.
I am really concerned about the neighbors. It's a small community as I said--10 families. That worries me, but it's not a deal breaker.
It's a very cute little home, but it's not a fancy family lake house by any means. There would only be room for one other couple/guest. I'd also be concerned about clutter.. it's like a big tiny house.
Oh, gosh, I really don't know. Here's a link to a video of the island. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww__UbkrIBU
iris lilies
9-19-17, 8:00pm
Those 4-6 minutes drives seem VERY short to me. Those are walking distance drives.
In my world, 7 ish minutes drive means 25-30 ish minutes walk. Just enough for an aerobic workout.
Those 4-6 minutes drives seem VERY short to me. Those are walking distance drives.
In my world, 7 ish minutes drive means 25-30 ish minutes walk. Just enough for an aerobic workout.
They're about a mile and half to two miles. But there are no traffic lights.
is there a bridge to the main land or a ferry?
is there a bridge to the main land or a ferry?
There is at least one main causeway from the Burlington area mainland to South Hero. It's actually an amazing drive across the lake--flanked by the Green Mountains and the Adirondacks.
But there are also ferries--there is a Grand Isle ferry to Plattsburgh NY, where there are lots of other "city" amenities.
For me, that would be a great location, but that is a very personal decision, no right or wrong.
It sounds like your biggest concerns are size of house and the big unknown of the neighbors. Is there a HOA, and someone you could talk to from the association, to scope out what the group is like?
The house would be too small for me, but I assume you could expand it if you found it so. The location sounds pretty good. Go with your instincts.
mschrisgo2
9-20-17, 3:31pm
As for the house itself, for me it would depend on how much built-in storage you have inside the 600 sq ft. As for guests, I'm assuming summer/good weather, can you add a screened in porch? I have very fond memories of sleeping in the screen room with cousins at my grandparents' home. :)
As for the 10 families, well, you'd all have to get along, and not be "best friends" - how long have they all lived there? and why is the current seller moving?
catherine
10-26-17, 5:28pm
Part II of the Vermont house hunting.
Another productive weekend. We drove up the eastern side of Lake Champlain and explored all the towns and all the neighborhoods/houses I had put on my list to drive by. We were able to yay/nay each one.
So yesterday we went up to the Champlain Islands, and I found a house that I really like!! My son in particular has been hounding me ever since we saw it.
Pros:
direct waterfront
cute house
Year round
Concrete dock
Guy wants to sell his boat for only $1500
No dangerous drop-off to beach, but set back
Lots of great southern exposure for growing
Intersting land concept: you own 1/4 acre, but share 2 acres with 10 families, reducing taxes
Great family spot
Cheap
Cons
A little farther than I want to be
I'd have to sacrifice the Burlington vibe for a remote island vibe and I'm not 100% sure what that will be like.
Don't know if I'll like those other 9 families
Not really a great place to get sick in (to jp1's point--not "age-in-place-able"). I'm healthy, but DH has some issues.
My son is ALL ABOUT IT, but I told him, it's really a case of me asking the question "Who am I??" City girl or country girl? Where am I going to be happy? How do I figure that out before I spend a lot of money?
Insights?
So, we got two emails. Yesterday: Realtor sends us a link to an adorable house in the town we really prefer, but it's on leased land. It's also about $50k above our budget. Also not year round. Otherwise really great. I've been reading up on pros and cons of leased land, and I really don't think I want to go that route.
Today: get an email from the owners of the above house. Can't remember how much I shared about them, but they are a young couple with a little baby. They made a ton of upgrades to this little home to make it as cute as it is. But they had to move to FL for financial reasons, and so they rented out for the time being. The email stated that their income in FL is nowhere near the income they could get in VT. Not only that but the renters have not paid them, and they are now in a terrible predicament. They wrote to us asking if we would still be interested in purchasing before spring, because they are going to be exploring foreclosure, and their hearts are broken.
We had actually put in an offer on this home, which they turned down because they rented it out just before we made the offer. But now, when push comes to shove, I am not sure I'm ready to commit. I would definitely be interested in renting for a few months to see how I like it. If I like living on Lake Champlain in the winter, I know it's a keeper.
Any thoughts on how to make this a win-win situation? I'm excited, but with trepidation.
Maybe ask them if you could rent it for 6 months for the price of the mortgage payment and maybe a little extra. That will give you the chance to see if you like it and they get cash coming in.
SteveinMN
10-26-17, 6:55pm
I would walk away.
First, in your own words, "leased land. It's also about $50k above our budget. Also not year round". Three things you're not happy about already.
Second, now there's the drama of a potential foreclosure. Which the young couple could exercise at any time, especially since they seem to be quite stretched financially and neither houses (they now own two) nor babies are immune from very expensive issues that may trip it and foreclosure doesn't release them right away from their obligation. I don't know what the laws for foreclosure are in Vermont; it would be good to be familiar with them before pursuing this transaction. What happens to the land-lease agreement in case of foreclosure? Are you prepared for all the (long-distance) bureaucracy that can accommodate a foreclosure (I've bought two; I have an idea)? If you rented the house for six months, would you be willing and able to move someplace else once the foreclosure redemption period was over -- if you had not found a way to purchase it somehow and assuming the house was ready for sale by then?
You could ask the young couple to learn more about short sales. It is possible (here in Minnesota; again, can't speak to Vermont, and, again, there's that pesky 'you-don't-own-the-land' issue) that the young couple could convince their lender that a short sale is preferable to foreclosure and for your agent to work with their agent/lender to present you and DH as qualified (pre-approved, willing to buy the house as-is, etc.) buyers willing to buy this house. The lender still gets to decide who buys, but if the young couple can present a package that minimizes the lender's costs, they might go for it.
But if you don't really love the lease and partial-year bits, is it worth all this?
catherine
10-26-17, 7:01pm
I would walk away.
First, in your own words, "leased land. It's also about $50k above our budget. Also not year round". Three things you're not happy about already.
Second, now there's the drama of a potential foreclosure. Which the young couple could exercise at any time, especially since they seem to be quite stretched financially and neither houses (they now own two) nor babies are immune from very expensive issues that may trip it and foreclosure doesn't release them right away from their obligation. I don't know what the laws for foreclosure are in Vermont; it would be good to be familiar with them before pursuing this transaction. What happens to the land-lease agreement in case of foreclosure? Are you prepared for all the (long-distance) bureaucracy that can accommodate a foreclosure (I've bought two; I have an idea)? If you rented the house for six months, would you be willing and able to move someplace else once the foreclosure redemption period was over -- if you had not found a way to purchase it somehow and assuming the house was ready for sale by then?
You could ask the young couple to learn more about short sales. It is possible (here in Minnesota; again, can't speak to Vermont, and, again, there's that pesky 'you-don't-own-the-land' issue) that the young couple could convince their lender that a short sale is preferable to foreclosure and for your agent to work with their agent/lender to present you and DH as qualified (pre-approved, willing to buy the house as-is, etc.) buyers willing to buy this house. The lender still gets to decide who buys, but if the young couple can present a package that minimizes the lender's costs, they might go for it.
But if you don't really love the lease and partial-year bits, is it worth all this?
Sorry if I misled you, Steve.
The leased land seasonal house is NOT the one the young couple are trying to save. That was another house.
Basically, to clarify, I prefer to live in Town A. It's very close to my son, and close to basic amenities. DH wants to live where he can fish and boat. Those homes in Town A seem to be almost 100% on leased land. Downsides of leased land: hard to get a mortgage. Hard to sell. Don't appreciate as much as the land itself. Upside: you get to live in a nice house in a great, desirable area without having to pony up hundreds of thousands of dollars for prime real estate. That was where House A was.
So we started looking in Town B. Found House B last September on owned land, on the water, 12 month, in our budget. Fell in love, made an offer, but they said that they were forced to take the first offer: a rent or buy, and the rental offer came first. I was bummed, and wrote to the couple (my realtor would shoot me) and said that if they were ready to sell next year (Spring 2018), we would love for them to reach out to me. So they reached out, much sooner than I expected them to.
iris lilies
10-27-17, 12:02pm
Catherine, I don't see any huge red flags with a plan to rent the lake place during the winter to check it out.
I think it is a given that sharing 2 acres with 12 other families Will involve some conflict. That is not reason enough in my mind to avoid it. I guess I would enter that situation with the idea that DH and you would be doing more than "your fair share " in maintaining that land and if that is OK with you, that is the way it is. It is impossible to fairly allocate maintenance like that in a completely even handed way.
Williamsmith
10-27-17, 1:00pm
Catherine, you seem sure this is the right direction as far as location. But within your location.....Do you feel you have exhausted your search?
And are you and DH .....of one mind?
frugal-one
10-27-17, 1:46pm
$50,000 over budget... how much longer will you have to work to make this up?
catherine
10-27-17, 1:48pm
$50,000 over budget... how much longer will you have to work to make this up?
No, that's not the house in question. The house in question (House B) is right on budget.
SteveinMN
10-27-17, 2:36pm
Sorry if I misled you, Steve.
I certainly could have read it wrong, too. :)
The clarifications appear to remove some of the reasons I provided to keep on walking. It looks like it leaves just the not-inconsequential issues of having to wait for the house to either sell short or go through foreclosure and whatever contractual obligation may remain for the non-paying renters (also assuming they didn't wreck the place on their way out the door). If those are workable, you may have found yourself a house...
I'm cautiously optimistic for you.
catherine
10-27-17, 6:04pm
I'm cautiously optimistic for you.
Thanks, Jane. I'm cautiously optimistic, too.
And Steve, I don't know if they'd let it get to the short sale stage.. maybe they have to. But I think they're HOPING they can sell quickly. Sometimes banks don't act that fast. If they do go to short sale, obviously that could advantage us.
I'm struggling with the fact that we actually made an offer on the house in September, so now why am I gun-shy? Then again, this morning when I was turning it over in my mind, I did a google map and saw a business very nearby (within 10 minute walking distance) and it was this really awesome farm/greenhouse. They sell plants, produce, and their own pasture-raised grassfed beef. Practically right next door!!
SteveinMN
10-28-17, 8:50pm
And Steve, I don't know if they'd let it get to the short sale stage.. maybe they have to. But I think they're HOPING they can sell quickly. Sometimes banks don't act that fast. If they do go to short sale, obviously that could advantage us.
I reacted to:
young couple with a little baby. They made a ton of upgrades to this little home to make it as cute as it is. But they had to move to FL for financial reasons, and so they rented out for the time being. The email stated that their income in FL is nowhere near the income they could get in VT. Not only that but the renters have not paid them, and they are now in a terrible predicament. They wrote to us asking if we would still be interested in purchasing before spring, because they are going to be exploring foreclosure, and their hearts are broken.
It doesn't sound like they're swimming in money. If they are exploring foreclosure, which will damage their credit rating for years and may do a figurative number on their taxes if/whenever they lose the property (some states tax as income the loan amount forgiven), then a short sale can circumvent the worst effects on them.
It depends on how much money they need to get out of the transaction and how long they can cover two mortgages and maintenance and insurance (if the house is empty) until the property closes. It also depends on the laws in Vermont regarding renters who don't pay (how long they have to redeem their debt, the months the legal eviction process takes, etc.). And -- minor consideration -- it also depends on nothing serious happening to the housing market between now and then.
Hard to say they could pull a quick sale out of that.
catherine
10-28-17, 9:14pm
I agree, Steve. I think they're in for a tough road. Such a shame that they had signed the lease with the other people JUST before they met us, because we were willing to rent for 3 months until the mortgage went through. So they would have had cash flow AND a house sale. I do want to make this a win-win. I really don't want to take advantage of their unfortunate situation.
Do you like the house enough to want to go through with the deal? Maybe try not to worry about them and helping them and really focus on what you want.
catherine
10-29-17, 10:06am
Do you like the house enough to want to go through with the deal? Maybe try not to worry about them and helping them and really focus on what you want.
I know. Point well taken.
We're speaking with the realtor today. She has told me that realtors always do whatever they can to keep buyers and sellers apart. Now I see why. We met them, and their baby, and they were so sweet, and yes, I have to admit it's hard to be dispassionate about their misfortune but I'll do the best I can.
I didn't mean you should not feel for them or like them or want to help, just that I was getting unclear message about if you really really like the house and would be satisfied with it--do you love the house enough to really want to buy it--do you both love it enough? That's what I was trying the say, justfocus on the house itself and whether you will be satisfied--knowing it is REALLY hard to know that without moving there.
catherine
10-29-17, 10:31am
I didn't mean you should not feel for them or like them or want to help, just that I was getting unclear message about if you really really like the house and would be satisfied with it--do you love the house enough to really want to buy it--do you both love it enough? That's what I was trying the say, justfocus on the house itself and whether you will be satisfied--knowing it is REALLY hard to know that without moving there.
Well, my thought is a good rent-to-buy thing, where a significant % of the money would go toward down payment if we decided to purchase in the spring, would be the best. But at the same time, I really do like the house a lot, and I haven't seen anything close in my price range. I think I'm cautious because honestly, it's out of the frying pan with the IRS and back into the fire with another mortgage until we sell the New Jersey house. I am getting pressure mostly from my family. DH LOVES it and is on it like a pit bull, and one of my sons in particular calls me every day citing the advantages of it.
I do love it, I really do. It would enable a more simple life in many ways. The thing I'm most worried about is being able to live small. But it's a great opportunity.
iris lilies
10-29-17, 10:40am
I know. Point well taken.
We're speaking with the realtor today. She has told me that realtors always do whatever they can to keep buyers and sellers apart. Now I see why. We met them, and their baby, and they were so sweet, and yes, I have to admit it's hard to be dispassionate about their misfortune but I'll do the best I can.
I know how you feel.
I feel so badly for the youngish family who own that house we talked about buying. I want to --but I wont-- contact the real estate agent to ask her to tell them that their house is cool, it is quirky, it has charm and the only reason we didnt buy it is because we decided Hermann was just too small to live in permenantly (and two regular size houses are a strain.) I even fantasize about offering them full price since their asking price is low and a few thousand dollars makes no difference to us but probably makes a big difference to them.
The dad in that family was offered a good job in tiny Hermann, they moved from out of state there, and then his job was eliminated.
On the flip side with the mortgage question, there are definitely risks to selling NJ if you don't have a house to go to, and this sounds really, really good.
If you love it, and it gets you closer to a more simple life, than awesome--good luck and sending good thoughts for a good outcome for all!
iris lilies
10-29-17, 10:45am
The thing about "small living" is that I always assume I could build an outbuilding to hold The Stuff and to house The Activities. I also plan very large 3 season porches on smallish houses. These additions that cost $25,000 -$60,000 are a way to ease into a property that otherwise hits all of the points.
catherine
10-29-17, 10:56am
The thing about "small living" is that I always assume I could build an outbuilding to hold The Stuff and to house The Activities. I also plan very large 3 season porches on smallish houses. These additions that cost $25,000 -$60,000 are a way to ease into a property that otherwise hits all of the points.
The owner already built 3 outbuildings for storage! Since they bought it 4 years ago, they put in new windows, renovated the bathroom (it has a fabulous refurbished clawfoot tub), built-in shelves, added insulation, added a mudroom and expanded the kitchen, put in new appliances, added fruit trees and shrubs perennial hedges and vegetables gardens, a pergola and a fire pit.
catherine
10-29-17, 11:07am
On the flip side with the mortgage question, there are definitely risks to selling NJ if you don't have a house to go to, and this sounds really, really good.
If you love it, and it gets you closer to a more simple life, than awesome--good luck and sending good thoughts for a good outcome for all!
Thanks! .. We'll see what happens. I tend to trust the Universe, and I do think it's weird that this comes around JUST when we've put the other house behind us.
iris lilies
10-29-17, 7:48pm
Thanks! .. We'll see what happens. I tend to trust the Universe, and I do think it's weird that this comes around JUST when we've put the other house behind us.
I think it is very smart of you to be careful about taking on snother mortgage when you already have one mortgage.
If you can sell the NJ place quickly, it should end up ok. But as you well know the bottom can drop out of the real estate market on a dime.
Some of the issues I see as problematic: listing your NJ house at a price to sell, your DH panicking and asking for silly high price. Your BIL sabotaging the sale as he lives there and doesnt keep the place up (in my mind, you and DH are off in Vermont.) Probably there are other issues that could interfere.
iris lilies
10-29-17, 8:29pm
P.s. Has the house next door actually closed?
catherine
10-30-17, 2:14pm
P.s. Has the house next door actually closed?
Well.... not quite, but we're getting there. It has been one PIA after another. BIL: looked at me like a deer in the headlights, asking "so, you mean, they'll sleep here Tuesday night?" (Two days before closing). "Yes, once we go to 'the meeting' that means we can't come back to the house." (duh.. and this was the third time he asked me about that).
He also looked at me blankly when I I told him he had to be packed up and ready to move out in 3 days. This house has been under contract for 3 MONTHS!!!" When he AND DH said, "Well, we didn't know," I wanted to knock their skulls together. Did they think they were going to get 30 days notice???
So, there are a few things up in the air right now. We were supposed to close tomorrow, but DH couldn't get the POD removed fast enough, and although we have made all the repairs the buyer has asked for, we still have to replace two electric receptacles, which DH says he is going to do. He CAN do it, but the question is WHEN? These two brothers, as endearing as they are, were not raised to handle stress in any way, shape or form. I was held up from being involved because it's not my house, but basically DH has told me that I better just take over. It's too much for him.
iris lilies
10-30-17, 2:34pm
Well.... not quite, but we're getting there. It has been one PIA after another. BIL: looked at me like a deer in the headlights, asking "so, you mean, they'll sleep here Tuesday night?" (Two days before closing). "Yes, once we go to 'the meeting' that means we can't come back to the house." (duh.. and this was the third time he asked me about that).
He also looked at me blankly when I I told him he had to be packed up and ready to move out in 3 days. This house has been under contract for 3 MONTHS!!!" When he AND DH said, "Well, we didn't know," I wanted to knock their skulls together. Did they think they were going to get 30 days notice???
So, there are a few things up in the air right now. We were supposed to close tomorrow, but DH couldn't get the POD removed fast enough, and although we have made all the repairs the buyer has asked for, we still have to replace two electric receptacles, which DH says he is going to do. He CAN do it, but the question is WHEN? These two brothers, as endearing as they are, were not raised to handle stress in any way, shape or form. I was held up from being involved because it's not my house, but basically DH has told me that I better just take over. It's too much for him.
Then, I fear for you in having responsibility for two houses/mortgages again since it is all on your shoulders.
What in god's name will your BIL do when he has to find a place to live on his own after you remove his place to live (your house in NJ?) you will have to forcibly remove him. How else can this scenario go? I would imagine that your DH is enthusiastic enough about the Vermont lake property that he will go there easily, but will he do everything necessary to sell the NJ housw?
I wont even ask what ya'll are doing with a POD, I i just assume it is another thing you are paying for, storing BIL's stuff.
But it does sound as though you are almost to the finish line with the sale of this house, yay!
catherine
10-30-17, 2:40pm
I wont even ask what ya'll are doing with a POD, I i just assume it is another thing you are paying for, storing BIL's stuff.
But it does sound as though you are almost to the finish line with the sale of this house, yay!
No, BIL pays for the POD.
Yes, Yay indeed!! God help us, we're almost there!
Hmm..if this was my story, I would sell the house you're in after the one next door closes and then rent for a while in your new locale. I speak from experience.
catherine
10-30-17, 5:11pm
Hmm..if this was my story, I would sell the house you're in after the one next door closes and then rent for a while in your new locale. I speak from experience.
That's probably the safest way to go, pinkytoe. I'm just trying to hedge my bets by holding on to the sure thing.
Hi!! I haven't been on the forums for awhile, but I need to address some of your concerns re: living in the Islands ( as we natives call them) or in Malletts Bay where my husband and I currently reside. First of all, most of the homes in the Islands are not on leased land. Those that are, are 99 yr leases. Homes on leased land are seasonal camps, not year round houses. What may be a 4-6 min drive in the summer can easily be 20-30 mins in the winter depending on the weather. Living in the islands in the winter is a feat unto itself. None of the restaurants are open year round, with the exception of the Irish pub in South Hero and Blue Paddle Bistro. There is plenty to do in the summer but, if you want to eat out or got the movies or the theater, you will either go to St Albans (route 78 is a wild drive in the winter) or into Burlington. It can take more than an hour in the winter to drive the 35 miles. The Ferry to NY is year round, and the only operating winter Vermont Ferry. The drive to Plattsburgh is approx 1 1/2 hrs one way by car. If the wind is high or there is little visibility due to blowing snow or a fierce storm the causeways will be closed . Island people are fiercely independent, and will help out their neighbors in an instant. They are very active in their communities, and will stand by their convictions. Many of the islanders are farmers and have been in the same families for over 100 years. The school system is excellent, but does not have a high school and may never have one. The kids and their families get to pick which town they want to have their high school education in. Usually Colchester or Essex. One of the main reasons for this is the families want their kids to get off the island and go to town to see what life is like there.It is my happy place, and has been for many years, altho I no longer liver there.
Mallets Bay is a very interesting town. My husband has resided there for a good part of his life. We presently live in his late parents home. We have a couple of restaurants that have made it past the 2 year mark, and do well in the summer, not so much in the winter. The town is presently looking at the 20 year plan, and I am not a fan of the rotary that is being planned for Blakely Rd and Lakeshore Drive. It is a pricey town to live in as we are ( and the isalnds, Charlotte, Shelburne, and Ferrisburgh) in a Gold Town. This is the tax plan based on the amount of lakeshore in the particular town. Property taxes are very high. Schools are excellent. We have a bike path that goes from the old airport to the lake front in Burlington. It also goes to the bike ferry owned by Localmotion and connects to the Island Rail Trails which are on the old railroad beds and end in Alburgh if I am not mistaken. Spaulding East shore and West shore are seasonal homes and are not allowed to be lived in during the winter. Coates Island as you know is owned by the same family for 140 years. There are some year round homes but most are seasonal, therefore the reason for leased land. Coates Isalnd has a very interesting and rich history, it used to be a dairy farm. For the most part, leased land is not an issue, unless the owner dies and the surviving children, decide to make those leases null and void, as many on Lakeshore Drive found out this past winter. I highly suggest that you read the local town newspapers, it will give you more insight. They are: The lake Champlain Islander and the Colchester Sun. They are both on line
As far as aging in place goes in the islands , there is a huge network of healthcare resources. CIDER has a senior center, and is also the main place for daily meals. Meals on Wheels are delivered every day. There are at least 2 senior living centers, that I am aware of. Visiting Nurses of Grand Isle Chittenden county has a huge presence there. The Island Health Center is brand new, replacing the old one on Rt 2 where the VNA is. You are not locked in to just one hospital, Northwestern in St Albans is an excellent hospital, and has great doctors.
And yes, you can swim in the lake. There have been issues in the past with Asian milfoil and the towns spend money every so many years to eradicate it. There is a giant weed harvester in the Pelot Point Bay. As far as algae goes, some years we have it and some years we do not.
Whatever your endeavors are in Vermont, I hope you find what you are looking for. Don't forget we have the most awesome farmers markets of any state!! Farm to Table and Eat and Buy local ARE who we are!! Not to mention the local craft sales/fairs. The craft shows are juried and there is a website that you can join for all of the latest info. Don't forget tourism is our number one business. Skiing is a huge industry and provides jobs for many families in those areas.
Wow, thank you for this, mamarazz! Invaluable to have the insights from someone who lives there!
I love Malletts Bay because it is such a nice lakeside "town" but so close to Burlington! If we lived there, we'd just zip down the Beltline and be at my son's house on North Champlain Street in 10 minutes. As I wrote in the earlier post, I really liked Coates Island, but the leases are very short, and that makes me nervous. And I don't like the idea of not owning the land. But it does make those beautiful areas more affordable. We are also looking at a seasonal home on Mills Point. BTW, I did read up on the Lakeshore Drive lease issues. My son sent me the articles, and I watched a youtube video with the homeowners who lost their homes.
But there's the side of me that finds living in the Islands really appealing, too! I do appreciate the warnings about the winter, and the time it will take to get to the mainland. My realtor lives in South Hero, so she tends to be biased toward that area. As you know, it's pretty expensive if you want waterfront. The home we're interested in is in Grand Isle, on The Gut. We'll see.
Anyway, we're still not closed on BIL's house. I don't even want to go into the latest crisis. In a nutshell, BIL never paid his sewer taxes this year ($875), and A WEEK AGO, on October 26, unbeknownst to us, the township sold a tax lien certificate for the property. Do you believe it???!!!! So NOW the title insurance company has to untangle it and find out how much BIL is going to have to pay to redeem the tax lien.
And that's not all, but I don't have the strength to relive this stuff in writing. I'm just hoping we can close THIS week.
iris lilies
11-5-17, 2:20pm
Catherine, all of us here are rooting for you.
I hope this firms up your spine to politely but clearly move BIL our of your sphere of responsibility.
Teacher Terry
11-5-17, 3:11pm
So sorry Catherine. I hope you close quickly. BIL is a total loser.
Thanks, IL and Terry. I know I'll get through it. It's just so aggravating when your very simple expectations are not met.
[Deleting my rant because it already served its purpose]
Thanks again for the well-wishes. This too shall pass. I feel no animosity toward him, because I really feel he has something missing mentally, so I can't really fault him. It's just aggravating and a big waste of my time. He doesn't want to live with us, but he has made NO arrangements to do anything during all this time. He hasn't even looked for any apartments or sublets. I told him he should take his money and buy a cheap condo in FL, but he doesn't want to do that. He wants to live in San Diego. He makes minimum wage in a seasonal job, and he thinks he'll be able to live in San Diego.
Teacher Terry
11-5-17, 4:28pm
Wow that is a lot of stress for you! Probably 3/4's of those clothes don't fit anymore. I think you will need to move yourself to get rid of him:|(. One day this will all be a not so fond memory. It does sound like he is not very capable of making good decisions.
ToomuchStuff
11-6-17, 2:26am
Time for a wheelbarrow, and lighter fluid (or what appears to be).;)
That might also make him very afraid to move in with you or continue to live next door.
That house next door is really hanging on! Maybe it's time to go over and smudge it or something and release it to the universe. This is a really good argument against moving in next to a family member, as you end up with kind of a compound thing going on, and it gets really complicated to sell one of the houses.
Gosh I am so sorry this is turning out to be so involved. Sending good thoughts your way to get the house sold and the situation straightened out. So, so sorry you are having this stress right now.
Am sending good wishes to you that this mess gets straightened out this week!
Thanks, Tybee and TooMuchStuff! I know it will be over soon, but the sooner the better!
There is no way BIL will move in with us at this point (he was without power for a night and he never asked if he could spend the night with us); nor will DH have him at this point. It's a shame. Yes, Tybee, another Dave Ramsey rule is never go in with family on stuff like this. I'm rethinking my own dream of a compound.
catherine
11-11-17, 9:34am
Update: Closing is DEFINITELY on Tuesday!!! We're transferring the title and signing Power of Attorney at our lawyer's office on Monday. We don't even have to be at the closing.
Coincidentally, we heard from the owners of the lake house that their tenants are leaving on Wednesday and they will put the house back on the market at that point. This is a huge decision. I'm feeling SO pulled to Vermont, and to this house in particular, but it requires us to carry two mortgages until we sell our house. But every time I read something else about life in Grand Isle, my heart goes aflutter.
I still haven't answered the title question for myself, but I think I'm getting there..
Update: Closing is DEFINITELY on Tuesday!!! We're transferring the title and signing Power of Attorney at our lawyer's office on Monday. We don't even have to be at the closing.
Coincidentally, we heard from the owners of the lake house that their tenants are leaving on Wednesday and they will put the house back on the market at that point. This is a huge decision. I'm feeling SO pulled to Vermont, and to this house in particular, but it requires us to carry two mortgages until we sell our house. But every time I read something else about life in Grand Isle, my heart goes aflutter.
I still haven't answered the title question for myself, but I think I'm getting there..
Excellent news! Fingers crossed for Tuesday!
SteveinMN
11-11-17, 10:47am
Congratulations! May everything go smoothly!
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