View Full Version : Why are there still Nazis, white supremacists etc?
Why are there still Nazis, white supremacists etc.?
The choice to be one could be affected by one's social dominance orientation. Take the quiz in the link below and see if your orientation aligns with your posts on this site. Share the results if you feel so inclined or not. I tried it and found I had 'low' social dominance orientation.
I feel strongly that people are equal in value but make poor choices. If someone has to tell me how much better they are than the rest of the world, I think that they are suffering from serious self-deception.
Personality trait of social dominance orientation https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2017/0814/Why-are-there-still-Nazis-These-eight-questions-can-help-explain?cmpid=ema:nws:Science%2520Weekly%2520%2808/17/2017%29&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ScienceNewsletter%20081717&utm_term=Science_final
The continued existence of people who hold openly white supremacist ideologies more than seven decades after the fall of the Third Reich can be explained, in part, through a social theory developed in the early 1990s. Social dominance theory seeks to explain how hierarchy-enhancing ideologies do not just drive social inequality, but are also a result of it. It suggests that a single personality trait, called social dominance orientation (SDO), strongly predicts a person’s political and social views, from foreign policy and criminal justice to civil rights and the environment. What's more, it offers insight into how ideologies such as racism, sexism, and xenophobia tend to arise from the unequal distribution of a society's resources.
“Social dominance theory provides a yardstick for measuring social and political ideologies,” says Felicia Pratto, who developed the theory with fellow psychologist Jim Sidanius.
Ultralight
8-18-17, 6:10pm
I was "low."
Teacher Terry
8-18-17, 6:39pm
Low for me too.
I got low, too, but honestly, as I market researcher, I have to ask, would anyone ADMIT to saying that some groups are better than others, or that equality isn't important in society?
The very language of the survey has embedded in it such implicit assumptions that it's hard to answer seriously.
For instance, Question #6: "It is unjust to try to make groups equal."
What is "just"? What is "equal"? What does "try to make" entail?
Bae, while I agree with your analysis of concern of the words chosen, do you think that those pro or against nazism,etc., do that depth of analysis or do they simply answer the question in terms of their understanding of just, equal etc and act accordingly?
Bae, while I agree with your analysis of concern of the words chosen, do you think that those pro or against nazism,etc., do that depth of analysis or do they simply answer the question in terms of their understanding of just, equal etc and act accordingly?
But different people will have quite different understandings of the terms, and so their answers may not be as easily placed on a "social dominance" scale as the survey makers hope...
To your question, I suspect most people have not read Rawls' "A Theory of Justice" and similar works.
I think if your view is that the great story of our country is its path towards more inclusiveness you will score low. But if to you the greatness of America is something else, like being able to own a bunch of guns, you might not. For the first time today I heard Tom Petty's version of Knocking on Heaven's Door with the reference to automatic weapons and I thought, only in America.
But different people will have quite different understandings of the terms, and so their answers may not be as easily placed on a "social dominance" scale as the survey makers hope...ome
To your question, I suspect most people have not read Rawls' "A Theory of Justice" and similar works.
I confess that I have not read that either. The problem with any discussion is finding an agreement on the meaning of terms. Most negotiation starts with that, i suspect, and proceeds from that point. Culturally people will believe their view is the correct one until someone convinces them to attend the negotiation table in reality or in thought. Rigid minds of whatever persuasion don't want to risk that they might be wrong and so avoid negotiation unless there is an over-riding reason to enter negotiation. In the meantime, society may be held hostage by the rigid minds if permitted to do so.
I got low, too, but honestly, as I market researcher, I have to ask, would anyone ADMIT to saying that some groups are better than others, or that equality isn't important in society?
Apparently some will when they are marching as a group with tiki torches.
iris lilies
8-19-17, 11:18pm
Bae, while I agree with your analysis of concern of the words chosen, do you think that those pro or against nazism,etc., do that depth of analysis or do they simply answer the question in terms of their understanding of just, equal etc and act accordingly?
Why does the survey use "groups" as their subject? I thought the questions were dumb, and ambiguous as well.Of course there are some "groups" that should not "dominate" ( whatever that means) in society. I mean really, do you want two and thre year old temper tantrum throwing children making laws?
Do you want convicted pedophiles running public schools?
Is it better for all if serial killers chose their own prison sentence?
etc.
goldensmom
8-20-17, 7:16am
I did not read the linked article but I think the answer to your thread title and first question is simply caused by evil (see dictionary definition). Called by various names, there has been and will always be evil groups and individuals in the world. I know that it is a popular theory to regard all people as basically good and evil is not a popular word but look around and you will see it is present and active in the world.
Baldilocks
8-20-17, 8:23am
I did not read the linked article but I think the answer to your thread title and first question is simply caused by evil (see dictionary definition). Called by various names, there has been and will always be evil groups and individuals in the world. I know that it is a popular theory to regard all people as basically good and evil is not a popular word but look around and you will see it is present and active in the world.
I didn't read the thread either, but goldensmom and I are on the same page. I will take it to a more unpopular level and answer the question with a 3 letter word. SIN... Everyone wants peace, but no one wants the Prince of peace. Sorry, but It's Sunday. You have to expect a Christian to preach, just as you would expect a dog to bark. The good new's is, "love covers a multitude of sins." Ok, I'll go away now.
A lot of perfectly vile human beings cloak themselves in (fundamentalist, usually) religion--often, a refuge of scoundrels, IMO.
A lot of perfectly vile human beings cloak themselves in (fundamentalist, usually) religion--often, a refuge of scoundrels, IMO.
True, but many "saints" (declared and undeclared) have lived lives for others in ways that have truly enriched the world and been a beacon of hope. When it comes to religion, I agree with MLK that "many churches are social clubs with a thin veneer of religiosity" but I don't like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
In terms of evil, I remember reading M.Scott Peck's book, The People of the Lie a couple of decades ago and being both disturbed and curious. I had never really explored the concept of evil, but he posed some interesting theories about it. I still don't know exactly where I stand. The Dalai Lama would say the murderous terrorists are "mischeivous"; Thich Nhat Hanh says to acknowledge that we are one with them and to try to understand where they are coming from; and George Bush would call them "evil-doers."
Once we label someone "evil" we shut them out, and the "us vs them" story continues. It burns the bridge. Some people have walked that bridge to the other side, like the reformed white nationalist that was interviewed by NPR: http://www.npr.org/2017/08/13/543259499/a-reformed-white-nationalist-speaks-out-on-charlottesville
He is the founder of a group called "Life after Hate." Great interview.
T
In terms of evil, I remember reading M.Scott Peck's book, The People of the Lie a couple of decades ago and being both disturbed and curious. I had never really explored the concept of evil, but he posed some interesting theories about it. I still don't know exactly where I stand. The Dalai Lama would say the murderous terrorists are "mischeivous"; Thich Nhat Hanh says to acknowledge that we are one with them and to try to understand where they are coming from; and George Bush would call them "evil-doers."
I also read that book, chilling. It reminded me that although there are some threads of humanity in everyone to also not be too naive about evil. Being naive or too much of a doormat can have devastating consequences.
I like that you included 2 Buddhists. I have been truly struggling with Christianity the last year and a half. I have previously been very interfaith oriented, and have reached some peace right now. But still, not good feelings. I am all the way up to neutral (not on individuals I know). My mother, a life-long church attending Lutheran has said that it is amazing that anyone approves of Christianity anymore.
I am no longer participating in the generalized assumption that Christians are good people because of majority or the good people I know. And I am more likely to let my own religion drop into conversation as often as a Christian would drop in that they did something at church or about their religious holidays. I do NOT want any more assumptions that I am Christian. My daughter is dealing with very conservative Christians right now. She just deleted the bible verses that she is being texted. This is the family she is marrying into, although her fiance is not like this.
Gotta expect me to share too, (smile)
catherine
8-20-17, 11:31am
I also read that book, chilling. It reminded me that although there are some threads of humanity in everyone to also not be too naive about evil. Being naive or too much of a doormat can have devastating consequences.
I like that you included 2 Buddhists. I have been truly struggling with Christianity the last year and a half. I have previously been very interfaith oriented, and have reached some peace right now. But still, not good feelings. I am all the way up to neutral (not on individuals I know). My mother, a life-long church attending Lutheran has said that it is amazing that anyone approves of Christianity anymore.
I agree with you on the caution against being too naive or a doormat. I struggle with that, frankly.
Regarding the references to two Buddhists, I don't call myself a Buddhist, but I adhere to many of the teachings of TNH in particular. I went to see him in person twice, and both were amazing experiences. I read and re-read many of his books. As far as Christianity goes, I love the "fringe" Christians. If you still have SOME interest in Christian principles, I would recommend you read Richard Rohr, Anthony deMello, Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day. Those are my main Christian inspirations. Spiritually, I am definitely a Buddhist/Christian hybrid. I was raised Catholic, and it's hard to shake ALL of it out of me. I will be Catholic until I die in many ways.
A lot of perfectly vile human beings cloak themselves in (fundamentalist, usually) religion--often, a refuge of scoundrels, IMO.
A lot of perfectly vile people cloak themselves in all manner of labels, poses and assumptions. I like what Jonah Goldberg recently wrote on the subject:
The simple truth is that history isn’t simple: The universe isn’t divided into the Forces of Goodness and the Forces of Evil. That divide runs through every human heart and, therefore, every human institution. Recognizing this fact is the first step toward humility and decency in politics and life. But we live in a tribal moment where people ascribe good and evil to vast swaths of humanity based upon the jerseys they wear. Sometimes, the jerseys do make the case. Wear a Klan hood or a swastika and I will judge the book by the cover. But just because you think you’re morally justified to punch a Nazi, don’t expect me to assume you’re one of the good guys.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file/450624/trump-last-straw-charlottesville-antifa-alt-right-battles
A lot of perfectly vile human beings cloak themselves in (fundamentalist, usually) religion--often, a refuge of scoundrels, IMO.
I actually got to see this on the way to counter-protesting yesterday - small group in front of the Boston library in Copley Square listening to someone going on about God and sin and primarily about homosexuals - if you remove the "Lord"'s and "God"'s and "Jesus"'s from what he was saying it really wasn't all that different than what the fascists have been saying.
catherine, on a personal level I wish you no harm, I appreciate that you have read people in my tradition. However I have an issue overall. As short and sweet as I can, I DO know Christianity. I have read many flavors of it. I grew up in a Christian household, I was baptized and confirmed against my protests. I have handled politely the Christians who show up at my door, make billboards, put Bibles in every hotel room. It is pretty hard to be in the US without being very aware of Christianity. I ended up with family that accepted this, after 20 long years of having churches recommended to me every time I moved. My kids were questioned in school for telling people they were atheist. I would not accuse you of this, however I have experienced a lot of arrogance. Like I would be a Christian, in fact a good person, if I just really understood the Christian faith.
After years of working at interfaith attitudes I ultimately think that the core tenets of Christianity and Buddhism are incompatible. We can agree on big humanitarian issues. There are so many non-issues in Buddhism that are a constant news item because of Christians and other faiths. Buddha is not Jesus in disguise. The 8-fold path and precepts are not just a version of the 10 commandments. I say this from teaching/facilitating a meditation group for the last 3 years and practicing for the last 30 years. Experiencing and supporting others in a deep fundamental change is a profound process. It is wonderful to watch the layers of suffering drop away, a deep relaxation and focus. We grow, sometimes slowly and imperfectly, in the actual practices that support acting in the world in a way that addresses our communal suffering. The roots of things like fascism are in deep personal and collective suffering. I think a few more people should be looking into Buddhism, but I have little hope that we will get beyond making excuses for the really bad Christians.
Whew, that was a dump out huh. At least it wasn't a post about work :)
catherine, on a personal level I wish you no harm, I appreciate that you have read people in my tradition. However I have an issue overall. As short and sweet as I can, I DO know Christianity. I have read many flavors of it. I grew up in a Christian household, I was baptized and confirmed against my protests. I have handled politely the Christians who show up at my door, make billboards, put Bibles in every hotel room. It is pretty hard to be in the US without being very aware of Christianity. I ended up with family that accepted this, after 20 long years of having churches recommended to me every time I moved. My kids were questioned in school for telling people they were atheist. I would not accuse you of this, however I have experienced a lot of arrogance. Like I would be a Christian, in fact a good person, if I just really understood the Christian faith.
After years of working at interfaith attitudes I ultimately think that the core tenets of Christianity and Buddhism are incompatible. We can agree on big humanitarian issues. There are so many non-issues in Buddhism that are a constant news item because of Christians and other faiths. Buddha is not Jesus in disguise. The 8-fold path and precepts are not just a version of the 10 commandments. I say this from teaching/facilitating a meditation group for the last 3 years and practicing for the last 30 years. Experiencing and supporting others in a deep fundamental change is a profound process. It is wonderful to watch the layers of suffering drop away, a deep relaxation and focus. We grow, sometimes slowly and imperfectly, in the actual practices that support acting in the world in a way that addresses our communal suffering. The roots of things like fascism are in deep personal and collective suffering. I think a few more people should be looking into Buddhism, but I have little hope that we will get beyond making excuses for the really bad Christians.
Whew, that was a dump out huh. At least it wasn't a post about work :)
Do not be the judge of people; do not make assumptions about others. A person is destroyed by holding judgments about others.
Gautama Buddha (http://www.azquotes.com/author/37842-Gautama_Buddha)
In terms of evil, I remember reading M.Scott Peck's book, The People of the Lie a couple of decades ago and being both disturbed and curious. I had never really explored the concept of evil, but he posed some interesting theories about it.
This is a useful book, and I've recommended it to folks. I've found it personally and professionally helpful. Along with Gavin de Becker's "The Gift of Fear".
catherine, on a personal level I wish you no harm, I appreciate that you have read people in my tradition. However I have an issue overall. As short and sweet as I can, I DO know Christianity. I have read many flavors of it. I grew up in a Christian household, I was baptized and confirmed against my protests. I have handled politely the Christians who show up at my door, make billboards, put Bibles in every hotel room. It is pretty hard to be in the US without being very aware of Christianity. I ended up with family that accepted this, after 20 long years of having churches recommended to me every time I moved. My kids were questioned in school for telling people they were atheist. I would not accuse you of this, however I have experienced a lot of arrogance. Like I would be a Christian, in fact a good person, if I just really understood the Christian faith.
After years of working at interfaith attitudes I ultimately think that the core tenets of Christianity and Buddhism are incompatible. We can agree on big humanitarian issues. There are so many non-issues in Buddhism that are a constant news item because of Christians and other faiths. Buddha is not Jesus in disguise. The 8-fold path and precepts are not just a version of the 10 commandments. I say this from teaching/facilitating a meditation group for the last 3 years and practicing for the last 30 years. Experiencing and supporting others in a deep fundamental change is a profound process. It is wonderful to watch the layers of suffering drop away, a deep relaxation and focus. We grow, sometimes slowly and imperfectly, in the actual practices that support acting in the world in a way that addresses our communal suffering. The roots of things like fascism are in deep personal and collective suffering. I think a few more people should be looking into Buddhism, but I have little hope that we will get beyond making excuses for the really bad Christians.
Whew, that was a dump out huh. At least it wasn't a post about work :)
I would beg to differ that Buddhism and Christianity are incompatible. Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk, was best buds with TNH--in fact he died while at an interfaith conference. One of my favorite books is "Benedict's Dharma" in which notable Buddhists talk about common elements between Buddhism and the Rule of St. Benedict. If you read Anthony deMello, if you didn't know he was a Jesuit priest you wouldn't be able to tell if he was Hindu, Buddhist or Christian. His life message is about awareness. Because you are a Buddhist, I know I don't have to remind you that the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. ;)
Chicken lady
8-20-17, 2:38pm
Yesterday a stranger's 6 y.o. brought me a book to read to her. She said "it's about thanksgiving because it has pictures of Indians and people." I told her "Indians are people. And this isn't a very good book. Do you know Amelia Bedelia?"
Why are there still Nazis? "Give me a child until he is 7 and he is mine for life"
We can agree to disagree on this. I know that there are many who see agreement, and i have read some of the arguments. I am not judging Christians in a negative way, just taking each person as they come. I think assuming that someone is interested in interfaith without some evidence is a type of pre judgment.
Meanwhile i just really love what i practice.
We can agree to disagree on this. I know that there are many who see agreement, and i have read some of the arguments. I am not judging Christians in a negative way, just taking each person as they come. I think assuming that someone is interested in interfaith without some evidence is a type of pre judgment.
Meanwhile i just really love what i practice.
Yesterday a stranger's 6 y.o. brought me a book to read to her. She said "it's about thanksgiving because it has pictures of Indians and people." I told her "Indians are people. And this isn't a very good book. Do you know Amelia Bedelia?"
Why are there still Nazis? "Give me a child until he is 7 and he is mine for life"
Do you know the book Encounter? It is about Columbus but from a different perspective. Probably not at a 6 yo level.
We can agree to disagree on this. I know that there are many who see agreement, and i have read some of the arguments. I am not judging Christians in a negative way, just taking each person as they come. I think assuming that someone is interested in interfaith without some evidence is a type of pre judgment.
Meanwhile i just really love what i practice.
I think it's wonderful that you practice and teach mindfulness. The world definitely needs more of that!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y3Q7H2urto
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