View Full Version : LGBT rights in the USA today...
I came across a nice article in the NY Times today, with some decent charts/maps:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/25/opinion/sunday/worst-and-best-places-to-be-gay.html
Also:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-signs-directive-banning-transgender-troops/ar-AAqI5bk
http://media.washtimes.com.s3.amazonaws.com/media/image/2016/11/01/Trump.jpg
flowerseverywhere
8-25-17, 8:37pm
Yes the article was very good. Today did you see guidance came out about transgender military ban? Just before the racist Arpaio was pardoned.
So so much for unifying the country. Liar.
Yes the article was very good. Today did you see guidance came out about transgender military ban? Just before the racist Arpaio was pardoned.
I did see the "guidance" - it's mentioned in my second post above.
I didn't see the pardon today. Wow. That's...quite a mistake on his part:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/opinion/trump-arpaio-pardon-arizona-sheriff.html?mcubz=3
I am so deeply angry and sad. I consider myself a very close ally, for all of my life, to the community. There is no way that all my support is going to make much of a difference in how much hate and discrimination there is.
I am so deeply angry and sad. I consider myself a very close ally, for all of my life, to the community. There is no way that all my support is going to make much of a difference in how much hate and discrimination there is.
The ACLU is taking the new royal pronouncement to court. It's not over 'til it's over.
It's almost like Trump throws out something like this every couple of days to keep everyone distracted, upset, and milling around ineffectively.
Good, i would love to donate but my effort is in running a meditation group with lots of people in recovery, LGBTQ, basically some people who really need us. Financially the facilitator group keeps the doors open. Recently we had several people from the community came and shared deeply how this is affecting them, i feel we did good work that night. A new person is female to male trans, really nice young guy. I feel very protective
It's almost like Trump throws out something like this every couple of days to keep everyone distracted, upset, and milling around ineffectively.
Oh yeah, i struggle to not react too much but just figuring it will be okay is also a bad choice
We need to focus on the issues we can and keep the pressure on our reps. Send money, send letters, send email, demonstrate, comfort panicky friends, and hope that this appalling situation will be resolved before the harm it causes becomes irrevocable.
gimmethesimplelife
8-25-17, 9:48pm
We need to focus on the issues we can and keep the pressure on our reps. Send money, send letters, send email, demonstrate, comfort panicky friends, and hope that this appalling situation will be resolved before the harm it causes becomes irrevocable.Jane, I'm looking into protesting with other 85006er's this evening in Phoenix in regards to the pardon. It's a start....now I truly feel awful that I skipped the protests when Trump was in town. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-25-17, 9:49pm
Yes the article was very good. Today did you see guidance came out about transgender military ban? Just before the racist Arpaio was pardoned.
So so much for unifying the country. Liar.Your last two sentences give me hope. Thank You, Flowerseverywhere (and I still love your screen name, btw) Rob
We need to focus on the issues we can and keep the pressure on our reps. Send money, send letters, send email, demonstrate, comfort panicky friends, and hope that this appalling situation will be resolved before the harm it causes becomes irrevocable.
Nicely said.
I fear, however, that the emotional harm this sort of stunt causes isn't easily fixable.
Me, I don't care personally. I have age, experience, resources, and "privilege" to pile upon privilege. Anti LGBTQ stuff isn't going to directly impact my life much, I can ignore it and insulate myself from it easily enough (unless perhaps I wish to live in one of those problematic zip codes in the orginal NYTimes article in this thread.). But the situation isn't the same for someone in a less-advantaged position, who may be vulnerable on many fronts to this nonsense.
I love your suggestion to comfort panicky folks.
iris lilies
8-25-17, 11:46pm
I came across a nice article in the NY Times today, with some decent charts/maps:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/25/opinion/sunday/worst-and-best-places-to-be-gay.html
"...allowing child welfare groups to refuse adoptions that contradict their “ 'sincerely held religious beliefs' "... seems like the right thing to do.
My gay friendly city passed legislation that could force the Catholic Church to hire pro-abortion counselors. That is stupid, and it over reaches. While that has nothing to do with LGBTetc
rights, it is an issue of the right ot carry out sincerely held ideals.
iris lilies
8-25-17, 11:55pm
The Westboro Baptist Church idiots are here, just down the street, protesting LGBTetc night at the Cardinals' game. I do not consider their ideas to be "sincerely held" and
I think their day is over, but no doubt some liberal fools will get all lathered up about the presence here of Westboro.
"...allowing child welfare groups to refuse adoptions that contradict their “ 'sincerely held religious beliefs'
Catholic Charities could have continued discriminating in their adoption policies, but they would have had to give up state funding, so they pulled the plug on adoptions. Over the years they have repeatedly tried to get government support for vouchers for their schools, or bus transportation, or adoptions, or their hospitals, among other things.
There should be a strong wall between church and state, and if you don't want to play by the government's rules don't expect their funding. If they're so strong in their beliefs they should put their money where their mouth is.
And if they really care about children instead of fighting their placement in happy homes they should deal with pedophile priests.
iris lilies
8-26-17, 7:49am
Catholic Charities could have continued discriminating in their adoption policies, but they would have had to give up state funding, so they pulled the plug on adoptions. Over the years they have repeatedly tried to get government support for vouchers for their schools, or bus transportation, or adoptions, or their hospitals, among other things.
There should be a strong wall between church and state, and if you don't want to play by the government's rules don't expect their funding. If they're so strong in their beliefs they should put their money where their mouth is.
And if they really care about children instead of fighting their placement in happy homes they should deal with pedophile priests.
Haha yes to this dealing with priest pedophiles.
But if you think that " the government's rules" are always benign,
I have a bridge to sell you. As Nanny G lumbers into the world of social engineering making rules and regulations right and left, Nanny screws things up. Or CAN screw it up.* Nanny may not know any better than those guided by the word of God.
I agree that a line between church and state is a good thing, but here, the state is dictating what the Church must do in continuing to do churchy type things where philosophy and idealogy reign. It is not as though the state has cornered All That Is
Correct. far from it.
I also happen to believe that gender is important, that both mothers and fathers in a home are important. That doesn't mean that every child must have a female and a male parent, and there are cases where kids who identify as gay would probably do better in a gay parented household But to ignore gender of parents out of a sense of the rightS of parents --it is wrong. Placement of a child for adoption is about what is right for the child. This emphasizes the wrong side of the equation.
It is fine with me if gubmnt agencies place children in homes of same gender parents. I dont think it is ideal in all situations and is even wrong for some kids, but the gubmnt is the gubmnt and their human services can be 2nd rate. It is too bad for kids who end up in their hands.
* the federal government was instrumental in promoting housing segregation by dictating loan rules that explicitly kept black people out of whte neighborhoods. The government did not want races to mix.
http://www.npr.org/2017/05/17/528822128/the-color-of-law-details-how-u-s-housing-policies-created-segregation
flowerseverywhere
8-26-17, 8:16am
Catholic Charities could have continued discriminating in their adoption policies, but they would have had to give up state funding, so they pulled the plug on adoptions. Over the years they have repeatedly tried to get government support for vouchers for their schools, or bus transportation, or adoptions, or their hospitals, among other things.
There should be a strong wall between church and state, and if you don't want to play by the government's rules don't expect their funding. If they're so strong in their beliefs they should put their money where their mouth is.
And if they really care about children instead of fighting their placement in happy homes they should deal with pedophile priests.
not only do I agree I also fear for any public money going to further religious causes. Some religions teach the women is subservient to men, arranged marriages, polygamy and so on. Believe in whatever god you want to. Don't fund these beliefs with taxpayer dollars by giving vouchers to pay for schooling. Because where does I stop. Will radical Muslim schools be funded? Schools that support gay conversion? Roman Catholic schools that for years not only shielded priests but routinely sent them to a new set of victims when they were found out?
We are on on a slippery slope
flowerseverywhere
8-26-17, 8:19am
I did see the "guidance" - it's mentioned in my second post above.
I didn't see the pardon today. Wow. That's...quite a mistake on his part:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/opinion/trump-arpaio-pardon-arizona-sheriff.html?mcubz=3
i missed the second article I was so distracted by the liar in chief with the rainbow flag.
And all the while I am hearing that the lower courts are being filled with very conservative judges. The racist, anti-gay, anti-woman agenda will continue for a long time.
flowerseverywhere
8-26-17, 8:22am
Your last two sentences give me hope. Thank You, Flowerseverywhere (and I still love your screen name, btw) Rob
despite the fact that every day lies come out of his mouth, I am amazed that people all across this nation think that he is doing great. Protests, letter writing and all are fine, but what can citizens who value freedom and equality do? I joined a local democratic club and while big on rage, solutions are a little thin.
and by the way, my yard is a jungle of flowers. No matter how sad I am I can see little buzzy stuff pollinating and flying around. It grounds me.
gimmethesimplelife
8-26-17, 8:52am
despite the fact that every day lies come out of his mouth, I am amazed that people all across this nation think that he is doing great. Protests, letter writing and all are fine, but what can citizens who value freedom and equality do? I joined a local democratic club and while big on rage, solutions are a little thin.
and by the way, my yard is a jungle of flowers. No matter how sad I am I can see little buzzy stuff pollinating and flying around. It grounds me.I wish there was a pic of your yard somewhere! I can totally relate. I spend a lot of time and effort on my yard too and at at the risk of sounding cocky - I have one of the better yards in my part of the neighborhood, and I've had neighbors tell me this before, too - it' not just my ego. And I very much understand about the grounding - I live smack dab in the middle of a metro area of 4.5 million people and I really need the grounding and the connection with nature that a yard can provide.....Rob
iris lilies
8-26-17, 8:57am
not only do I agree I also fear for any public money going to further religious causes. Some religions teach the women is subservient to men, arranged marriages, polygamy and so on. Believe in whatever god you want to. Don't fund these beliefs with taxpayer dollars by giving vouchers to pay for schooling. Because where does I stop. Will radical Muslim schools be funded? Schools that support gay conversion? Roman Catholic schools that for years not only shielded priests but routinely sent them to a new set of victims when they were found out?
We are on on a slippery slope
there will always be tension in keeping the government zfrom establishing religion as far as giving monies. That is worth watching and speaking up to elected officials.
I am uncomfortable with the idea of moving MORE money to religious institutions. But
I am also uncomfortable with a government dictating social policy that seems to me to be the fad of the moment.
so yeah, there is a slope, and it is slippery, and thats what we as citizens must do, reign in a government that overreaches.
I am also uncomfortable with a government dictating social policy that seems to me to be the fad of the moment.
Giving equal rights to people regardless of their sexual orientation is not some fad. It is the march of history. Of course with the Supreme Court legalizing gay marriage you are going to have some backlash. But there is a definite generational divide on gay rights issues. In the longer scheme of things we will not be moving backwards.
It's almost like Trump throws out something like this every couple of days to keep everyone distracted, upset, and milling around ineffectively.
Gaslighting requires shaking the very foundations of what constitutes a "normal" reality. Trump, narcissist that he is, is very, very good at this.
I tried during the whole election to do all the things that are supposed to lead to peaceful change. The walls of corruption and entrenchment are very thick. It left me disheartened and depressed. I had to pull back, as it was eating me up.
My heart is breaking for all of us right now, as a nation.
Some of us think the problem is to much government.
It's almost like Trump throws out something like this every couple of days to keep everyone distracted, upset, and milling around ineffectively.
I really think he gets off on causing chaos. He's demented.
I watch CNN just to watch their heads explode. It's very entertaining.
Gaslighting requires shaking the very foundations of what constitutes a "normal" reality. Trump, narcissist that he is, is very, very good at this.
I lived through this personally, so in a way i saw some signs very early. But still so hard to work against
I lived through this personally, so in a way i saw some signs very early. But still so hard to work against
I just finished reading The Plot to Hack America. Now I'm really paranoid. There is a whole industry working to put out false reports, hack into websites, and infiltrate governments. Trump may be more than just a "useful idiot."
Watch the actions more than words, always. Trust your reality. Talk and follow real people. And remember you are not paranoid if they are really out to get you
gimmethesimplelife
8-26-17, 3:44pm
I tried during the whole election to do all the things that are supposed to lead to peaceful change. The walls of corruption and entrenchment are very thick. It left me disheartened and depressed. I had to pull back, as it was eating me up.
My heart is breaking for all of us right now, as a nation.I love your last sentence, Tybee.......I feel the same way, even with my issues with this country. Beyond what I may or may not think, we as a nation could be doing so much better.....Rob
And remember you are not paranoid if they are really out to get you
Who are 'they'? And why do they want to 'get you'?
Who are 'they'? And why do they want to 'get you'?
They are all the people trump put in his cabinet for the purpose of destroying the agencies they lead, rather than leading the agency in it's stated goal. Like an EPA head who doesn't seem inclined to protect the environment or a secretary of education who has zero experience with public schools. Or a head of the justice department that isn't interested in civil rights. Why they want to get us, I'm not entirely sure. In most cases, but not all, I'd imagine following the money would provide the answers. In the cases where it's not amount the money I imagine it's either about following the jesus or following the racism.
They are all the people trump put in his cabinet for the purpose of destroying the agencies they lead, rather than leading the agency in it's stated goal. Like an EPA head who doesn't seem inclined to protect the environment or a secretary of education who has zero experience with public schools. Or a head of the justice department that isn't interested in civil rights. Why they want to get us, I'm not entirely sure. In most cases, but not all, I'd imagine following the money would provide the answers. In the cases where it's not amount the money I imagine it's either about following the jesus or following the racism.
Oh, so it's definitely not paranoia then.
gimmethesimplelife
8-26-17, 4:26pm
Oh, so it's definitely not paranoia then.No, no it's definitely not. Rob
It's almost like Trump throws out something like this every couple of days to keep everyone distracted, upset, and milling around ineffectively.
Some slight of hand, a little smoke and a few mirrors and *poof* (wealth transfer complete).
"Attorney General Jeff Sessions has reversed a three-year-old Justice Department policy that protected transgender workers from discrimination under federal law.
In a memo to his U.S. attorney offices and agency heads, Sessions said that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not protect transgender people from workplace discrimination by private employers and state and local governments."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trump-administration-asks-court-to-toss-out-challenge-to-military-transgender-ban/2017/10/05/3819aec4-a9d5-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html
Teacher Terry
10-6-17, 12:46pm
The lunatics are at it again. We need to drain the WH and get back to respecting everyone. This administration just keeps being more awful everyday.
"Attorney General Jeff Sessions has reversed a three-year-old Justice Department policy that protected transgender workers from discrimination under federal law.
In a memo to his U.S. attorney offices and agency heads, Sessions said that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not protect transgender people from workplace discrimination by private employers and state and local governments."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trump-administration-asks-court-to-toss-out-challenge-to-military-transgender-ban/2017/10/05/3819aec4-a9d5-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html
Yes--the evil little elf has his sights set on gay people, cannabis users, and the undocumented, in no particular order.
I dont think it is ideal in all situations and is even wrong for some kids
Ouch. I'd be interested in hearing more about why you think it is less than ideal and even wrong in some situations.
iris lilies
10-28-17, 7:00pm
Ouch. I'd be interested in hearing more about why you think it is less than ideal and even wrong in some situations.
Gender matters. Some (many ? a number anyway) benefit from having a specific gender as parent, specifically a man, especially a father, in their house during formative years. For many reasons this is optimal, not the least of which is to learn to relate appropriately to persons of male gender.
There is the research that shows the single common characteristic of the prison population is a lack of father in their home. Not poverty. Not race. Not age. Lack of father.
I think that is significant.
I cant say that the extreme lack of fatherless homes has been of benefit to the underclass here in my crime ridden city.
not all children are the same and there are kids out there who long for fathers. Others dont care much about that factor. One size doesnt fit all, but I despair that Nanny G will get it right. Children who end up inthe social welfare system are probably screwed anyway.
not all children are the same and there are kids out there who long for fathers. Others dont care much about that factor.
I wonder how much of this is expectations. My mother grew up in Nazi Germany when all the men were away at war and few came back. She had no TV to show her other family structures and assumed it was normal to not have a father because none of the other kids had one around either. She has led a good life, but her older sister, who remembered her dad from prewar days, has struggled with depression, alcoholism, and other serious issues.
Is the research addressing gay parent households? I think there is a difference between an absence father (or mother) when there is one, versus having two moms or two dads.
Williamsmith
10-29-17, 6:19am
It all hinges on expectations. I can’t see what gender has to do with it. Is the interaction masculine or feminine? There are plenty of women who turn wrenches and plenty of men who do traditionally feminine things. If you look at LGBT relationships you’ll find the traits of traditional male/female roles. Kids are smart enough to figure it out along the way. As long as someone is is their life guiding them in their moral choices. I am happy to see anyone wanting to share their life with a child...no matter their sexual orientation. I have interviewed and interrogated plenty of criminal minds. Absentee or abusive parents are a common denominator.
Chicken lady
10-29-17, 7:38am
This is hitting pretty close to home for me.
my heartdaughter is bi. Her husband beat her. The state of Kentucky gave him their son 4 weekdays a week. He is making decisions that are harmful to the child (denial of educational services, denial of medical services, blocking legally required communication between the school and my heart daughter) things any normal human being would expect the court to consider in reopening a custody decision. The child loves his father, and in the absence of bruises, his mom supports that, she would never keep them apart.
but she can’t go back to court. She is now living with her girlfriend of 5 years, who fills the traditional “father” roll for their boy far better than his actual father. And she is fairly certain that rather than gaining enough control to get him the help he needs, she would lose him entirely.
after years of teaching, I will tell you, children need good men in their lives, and they need good women, and they need people who think that they are the most important things in the world, and they need those people to be their “parents” even if they are actually their grandparents, or their aunts or uncles or their older siblings. And I think they also benefit from androgynous and non binary roll models.
my bio Dd asked me once when she was in college “why did you never tell me that all of my heroines were lesbians?” And I said “ because it didn’t matter at first, and if you turned out to be straight (she did) I didn’t want you to identify with them less. They were good roll models.”
Thank you for posting this, Chicken Lady. You said it better than i could.
There are all kinds of families, most of them lacking in some way--i came up in a time of mostly uninvolved fathers--but it seems to me the important thing is that children get lots of love and support from the people who matter to them, regardless of gender.
iris lilies
10-29-17, 3:45pm
Is the research addressing gay parent households? I think there is a difference between an absence father (or mother) when there is one, versus having two moms or two dads.
I doubt gay parents were included but who knows. i heard the author of this research on NPR a few years ago.
If you mean a kid had a daddy in his life who then abandoned him, sure, that would do a number on the kid's head.
iris lilies
10-29-17, 3:48pm
Thank you for posting this, Chicken Lady. You said it better than i could.
There are all kinds of families, most of them lacking in some way--i came up in a time of mostly uninvolved fathers--but it seems to me the important thing is that children get lots of love and support from the people who matter to them, regardless of gender.
If all kinds of families are ok I wonder why social work standards exist at all, then. But again, you all know my opinion of Nanny G's ability to successfully socially engineer ANYTHING whether at a micro or macro level, so whatever.
Edited to add: dont forget, my discussion is in the context of foster parents for foster children. I just mentioned that research study because it was relevant to the gubmnt's position of cutting off agencies that provide only parental units made up of two genders.
If all kinds of families are ok I wonder why social work standards exist at all, then. But again, you all know my opinion of Nanny G's ability to successfully socially engineer ANYTHING whether at a micro or macro level, so whatever.
Edited to add: dont forget, my discussion is in the context of foster parents for foster children. I just mentioned that research study because it was relevant to the gubmnt's position of cutting off agencies that provide only parental units made up of two genders.
In general, I believe all kinds of families are OK, as long as they're loving and supportive. That's why so many people cobble them together from scratch. And I'm pretty skeptical of governmental oversight in these matters--it often seems to do more harm than good. But it's what we have.
Chicken lady
10-29-17, 6:13pm
I think the standards exist to assure safety, competence, and commitment to care. In that sense “all kinds of families” are not ok. Abusive families, neglectful families, probably families with untreated severe mental illness - not ok.
Someone adding children to a to a family to which they currently have no connection when that family does not have the time or space or resources to care for them - not ok.
but sizes and shapes and color and gender and marital status don’t mater to a kid at all compared to safety, love, security, support, belonging.... Heck, kids will chose love over safety every time.
love makes a family. Everything else is relative(s) ;)
While i agree that government oversight in this area is not necessarily that great as it exists currently the alternative would be worse. My grandfather, a little over 100 years ago lived through that. He'd been orphaned at a very young age and spent his childhood being shuffled among reluctant relatives who were resentful and abusive. Eventually he decided to do the only thing he could to stop it. He found a job, dropped out of school, and set off to make his way in the world. At age 11.
dont forget, my discussion is in the context of foster parents for foster children
Ah, I missed that. Thanks.
My grandfather also left home to support himself at the age of 11. His mother had died, and his father remarried an abusive stepmother, and he left. So even though his father was on the scene, it did not make up for the abusive stepmother.
Well, today brings a happy bit of news....
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html
JaneV2.0
10-21-18, 12:44pm
Well, today brings a happy bit of news....
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html
There seems to be no end to the damage he and his henchmen can wreak.
There seems to be no end to the damage he and his henchmen can wreak.
This is just cruel - throwing a bunch of marginalized, at-risk people to the wolves just to inflame his base.
https://www.algbtical.org/triangle003.jpg
The Nation published an article recently, titled "For Trump, Cruelty Is the Point; The White House’s immigration policies are designed to maximize suffering."
And that goes for his entire agenda, IMO.
Teacher Terry
10-21-18, 1:46pm
Well this is terrible news.
I will never understand why it's anybody's business (and especially a political matter) what our sexual preferences are - as long as it involves two consenting people that aren't children. We are so hung up in this country that it feels like we are moving backwards.
Ultralight
10-21-18, 2:51pm
I will never understand why it's anybody's business (and especially a political matter) what our sexual preferences are - as long as it involves two consenting people that aren't children. We are so hung up in this country that it feels like we are moving backwards.
Free secular societies don't care who is boffing who as long as all are consenting adults.
But theocracies have a shit fit about people doing gay stuff. God no likey the guy on guy action.
And secular totalitarians -- who make themselves into national gods -- need scapegoats and minorities to vilify. It keeps the sheeple from focusing on real issues, like civil liberties.
This is just cruel - throwing a bunch of marginalized, at-risk people to the wolves just to inflame his base.
As I understand it, the idea is to define gender "on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable", as opposed to the variable definition instituted by the previous administration. I'm unclear how this throws anyone to the wolves.
Teacher Terry
10-21-18, 4:07pm
People get sex change operations and then the law says that they cannot use the bathrooms etc for their new gender.
As I understand it, the idea is to define gender "on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable", as opposed to the variable definition instituted by the previous administration. I'm unclear how this throws anyone to the wolves.
Once you get a bias involved, science is mutable. You can get some scientist somewhere to say anything you want, IMO.
It wasn't so long ago that doctors just arbitrarily assigned genders to intersex babies; they may still be doing it. Some of the stories emerging around this are tragic. Science is a tool, sometimes a blunt one.
As I understand it, the idea is to define gender "on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable", as opposed to the variable definition instituted by the previous administration. I'm unclear how this throws anyone to the wolves.
And i’m not surprised that you don’t understand.
As I understand it, the idea is to define gender "on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable", as opposed to the variable definition instituted by the previous administration. I'm unclear how this throws anyone to the wolves.
I have little faith that the administration, given their commitment to scientific integrity, will actually dig deeply enough to formulate something fair and reasonable.
For instance, I have odd genetics, and both male and female sexual components. You can see it in the DNA, or with intimate physical examination. Some decades ago, I might simply have been aborted, or "assigned" a gender at birth through surgery without my consent.
The article claims: "The agency’s proposed definition would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by the genitals that a person is born with, according to a draft reviewed by The Times.". This does not to me to be a policy based in scientific reality.
How does the government, in its infinite wisdom, account for endocrine abnormalities or genetic chimerism, for example? I suspect this is another of Trump's edicts designed primarily to torment people.
For instance, I have odd genetics...As does my grandson with Klinefelter Syndrome, or 47,XXY. He is sterile, does not produce testosterone as a typical male should and has a micro-penis and slightly enlarged breasts but he is definitely a boy. Interestingly enough, some medical researchers believe that George Washington was also a 47 XXY as he had all the physical characteristics (history is thankfully ignorant on the micro-penis part) and had no known offspring, although there is no question that he was also a male.
Teacher Terry
10-21-18, 6:36pm
Now often parents of these babies are no longer encouraged to pick a gender and do surgery but to wait and see which sex the child acts like, etc so the correct gender is chosen. Many heartbreaking stories when surgery was done on babies.
Many heartbreaking stories when surgery was done on babies.
Indeed. A friend of mine had to, as an adult, sue her childhood doctors to get her medical records. She found out that the "stomach" surgery she had when she was 3 was genital modification surgery and she went from being Charlie to being Cheryl and her family moved to a new town shortly after that. She went on to found the Intersex Society of North America. They put together an interesting documentary with a group of intersex individuals talking about their life experiences. They mostly seemed to have been deeply traumatized by their experiences. The one exception, a woman in her early 20's, had avoided that fate because her intersexness had not been discovered by someone else when she was young, but instead, was discovered by herself as a teenager. Because of this she had never gone through the trauma of unwanted surgery. She has both a penis and a vagina and identifies as female. I have no idea what her chromosomes would say she is under the administration's proposal.
gimmethesimplelife
10-21-18, 8:01pm
And i’m not surprised that you don’t understand.Me neither. Rob
And i’m not surprised that you don’t understand.
Me neither. Rob
The only not surprise I see is your assumption of facts not in evidence.
Teacher Terry
10-21-18, 9:26pm
JP, what a interesting story and so glad it worked out for her. Stories like that are why the administrations stance is so wrong
An interesting read might be Fausto-Sterling's:
https://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/images/library/sexing_the_body.jpg
flowerseverywhere
10-21-18, 10:30pm
I personally know two men who transitioned to women. Several lesbian and gay couples. Probably more I have no idea they are not in a monogamous heterosexual relationship. For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone feels they have a right to judge, criticize, interfere in the lives Of grownups who are not hurting anyone Two men who live in my son’s neighborhood are raising three adopted boys and you won’t find two more dedicated and involved parents. The kids are thriving in school, with friends and in life.
All of them worked hard hard their whole lives, are nice individuals, and have no idea of trying to convert anyone. Basically good human beings.
Hate is carefully taught and obviously some people are afraid, just plain mean, or ignorant. Or just plain hateful. Get over yourself. Homosexuality and cross dressing, so called effeminate behavior in men and masculine behavior in women or whatever has been going on since Moby Dick was a minnow. Maybe they just feel threatened by their own lack of masculinity or femininity.
flowerseverywhere
10-21-18, 10:35pm
As does my grandson with Klinefelter Syndrome, or 47,XXY. He is sterile, does not produce testosterone as a typical male should and has a micro-penis and slightly enlarged breasts but he is definitely a boy. Interestingly enough, some medical researchers believe that George Washington was also a 47 XXY as he had all the physical characteristics (history is thankfully ignorant on the micro-penis part) and had no known offspring, although there is no question that he was also a male.
this must be heartbreaking as there are so many mean people in this world, even as he brings your family great joy. Dealing with this makes me surprised in your posts here. You may be the greatest dad, husband and gramps, but your empathy often doesn’t show. Surely your family has benefitted from some help from social programs the republicans so much want to stop.
this must be heartbreaking as there are so many mean people in this world, even as he brings your family great joy. Dealing with this makes me surprised in your posts here. You may be the greatest dad, husband and gramps, but your empathy often doesn’t show. Surely your family has benefitted from some help from social programs the republicans so much want to stop.The Klinefelter Syndrome is such a minor part of who he is we barely notice it. The heartbreaking part is his other chromosomal disorder, Trisomy 9 Mosaic.
As for social programs, the only beneficial program to date (he's currently 21 years old) has been a state program which allowed him to stay in school until the age of 21 where his social skills were greatly enhanced. There are Federal programs which mainly seem designed to relieve the family from responsibility for his care although there's not a single person in his extended family willing to go that route. He continues to live at home and spends a day or two here each week as well as another day or two with his other grandparents which ensures that he has continuous care by people who love him.
I think that your (and several others) comment(s) about my empathy are unfounded, unless your definition of empathy requires an abandonment of personal responsibility. I believe government interference is a poor substitute for a loving family.
Teacher Terry
10-21-18, 11:27pm
Alan, vocational rehabilitation is a federal program administered by the states. Look into it. They help people with disabilities obtain employment congruent with their disability. They provide job coaching that fades out and natural supports in the work place. There also are sheltered workshops depending on the persons capabilities. It changes life’s no matter where the person lives.
Alan, vocational rehabilitation is a federal program administered by the states. Look into it. They help people with disabilities obtain employment congruent with their disability. They provide job coaching that fades out and natural supports in the work place. There also are sheltered workshops depending on the persons capabilities. It changes life’s no matter where the person lives.We are all well aware of those programs, some of which were part of his extended educational program which ended last year. Working, beyond basic personal maintenance, just doesn't seem to be something he's capable of doing.
Teacher Terry
10-21-18, 11:52pm
Sheltered workshops are places that people with severe disabilities find very rewarding.
Teacher Terry
10-21-18, 11:53pm
People are able to be friends with others with disabilities.
If this NYT article is correct, the administration believes that people like me simply do not exist. Or perhaps that we need to be placed into some binary bins.
Teacher Terry
10-22-18, 12:02am
Alan if younger people are truly committed it’s different. We would see parents keeping kids home that could work in some capacity and once they died being st the mercy of the state wasn’t pretty. However,if they were working or in a workshop plus in a group home than life was good. If you have family committed until he dies then that will work. Very unusual
Teacher Terry
10-22-18, 12:03am
Bae, pretty disgusting isn’t it?
People are able to be friends with others with disabilities.
He has lots of friends, some with disabilities and many without. He is involved in two groups, one sponsored by a local church and another one secular, where he socializes with others with disabilities and due to the excellent work with his very dedicated and long term teacher he is able to connect with everyone he meets. As an example, last year there was some concern he may not be able to graduate high school with the rest of his class so the teacher in charge of the special needs programs arranged a private graduation ceremony for him, his family and friends. There were over 300 people in attendance! We all cried during the entire event, myself included.
Teacher Terry
10-22-18, 12:33am
That’s awesome!
As for social programs, the only beneficial program to date (he's currently 21 years old) has been a state program which allowed him to stay in school until the age of 21 where his social skills were greatly enhanced. There are Federal programs which mainly seem designed to relieve the family from responsibility for his care although there's not a single person in his extended family willing to go that route. He continues to live at home and spends a day or two here each week as well as another day or two with his other grandparents which ensures that he has continuous care by people who love him.
It's not just additional years of schooling, but more costly special needs education with a lower student:teacher ratio.
And when he hits 26 and can no longer be on your medical insurance, how will that be covered?
flowerseverywhere
10-22-18, 7:15am
I think that your (and several others) comment(s) about my empathy are unfounded, unless your definition of empathy requires an abandonment of personal responsibility. I believe government interference is a poor substitute for a loving family.
government interference is a poor substitute for a loving family, but it is sometimes needed. And if there was no government interference what would all the abused, neglected and orphaned children do? Sex slaves? Street beggars? There are close to 500,000 kids in foster care any given day in the US so obviously there is a need
if several people have commented on you coming across as not having empathy perhaps you should pay attention. because I think we all believe that a loving family is the best for any child, sometimes it just is not possible to not have some government help. no matter how loving, hard working, and personally responsible you are.
I don’t think I could live in a world where someone reaches rock bottom (especially through no fault of their own) and there was no one to give them a hand up.
I don't see anywhere that Alan was advocating child abandonment. But that may be due to my own lack of empathy.
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gimmethesimplelife
10-22-18, 9:00am
I remember once in the Spring of 2007 I was reading a copy of the Arizona Republic (the Phoenix newspaper) and there was an article in it regarding gay marriage being legal in Mexico City as of a few weeks before the article was written and there was a photo of two men, Mexican nationals, getting married. Imagine how it felt realizing that Mexico - yes Mexico, (At least Mexico City anyway, as this did not go nationwide and has not as of yet though there is hope for this under Lopez Obrador) - was light years ahead of many American municipalities......things have gotten better since 2007, I do have to admit that. Rob
PS Came back to add - To give America some credit for once, I am very grateful that after a long, long, long struggle that gay/lesbian marriage is legal in the United States, and I'm perhaps even more grateful that gays and lesbians can serve openly in the military. I also very firmly believe that having tasted legally recognized Basic Human Rights, should the Trump Administration try to take away this Civil Rights Progress......not only blizzards of lawsuits like never seen before but some souls starting over in other countries that maintain these rights....perhaps through regular immigration, potentially political asylum should things get really really threateningly nasty. We'll see though I am glad that Trump has publicly declared the marriage issue to be settled law. Rob
Came back yet again to add - I'm not proud that gay/lesbian marriage took longer to become legal in Austria than it did in the United States, either. One country I have a great deal of respect for in this area - Uruguay. Went against the church and made same sex marriage legal before some wealthier, more liberal countries did. Uruguay gets my two thumbs up and has for a number of years. Rob
if several people have commented on you coming across as not having empathy perhaps you should pay attention. I think it just means that I should probably take a short break from these "Oh woe is me, I'm being victimized again" threads. Carry on.
Mexico City, IIRC, is home to some eight million Mexicans, so that's no small accomplishment.
JaneV2.0
10-22-18, 12:00pm
I just came across a review of this book: The Autobiography of a Transgender Scientist, by Ben Barres, MIT Press (2018)
It might make for interesting reading; he looks like an admirable example of someone who dealt with gender identity issues.
Miss Cellaneous
10-22-18, 4:41pm
I had two thoughts when I read that NYT article.
1. What about intersexed babies? I believe current research suggests letting these children grow up and decide for themselves if they wish to identify as male, female, or both. Which this law would not allow. In fact, this law doesn't seem to take certain scientific facts into consideration.
2. The continuing, on-going utter and blatant hypocrisy of those in government who claim to want fewer regulations, fewer laws, more choice/freedom for individuals, but who also dream up things like this, a law that will limit and constrict many people. It seems that less regulation is out the door when more regulation can do harm to people--more restrictive immigration and abortion laws, for example, as well as this proposal.
I want to know, what difference does it make? If someone born with male genitalia identifies more as a woman and chooses to live their life as a woman, how does this affect anyone else? It's their own business. it does not affect my life in the slightest. And if it makes their life better, surely that is a good thing?
I'm far more worried about other things, like all the untrained gun owners out there, than the off-chance I might have to share a public restroom with a transgender person.
I think it just means that I should probably take a short break from these "Oh woe is me, I'm being victimized again" threads. Carry on.
Said by the most empathetic person ever.
Teacher Terry
10-23-18, 12:55am
Ypejji, Alan’s grandson will qualify for SSI and Medicaid due to his severe disability. The reason for the extra years of school is because the pace of learning is slower. It is money well spent.
Special needs programs can be very expensive. Some towns encourage families with special needs children to move elsewhere because it is a budget buster for them. Maybe these are costs that should be Federalized so they can be spread over a larger population.
Teacher Terry
10-23-18, 11:57am
States get federal money for education.
iris lilies
10-23-18, 1:55pm
Special needs programs can be very expensive. Some towns encourage families with special needs children to move elsewhere because it is a budget buster for them. Maybe these are costs that should be Federalized so they can be spread over a larger population.
Growing the Federal govnment is not a good idea.
We send $1 to Washington and it comes back to us in what amount? $.65? $. 72? .$.54? Something like that.
yea, special education programs are expensive. In my region, eveyone with a special needs kid moves to South
county because the school district there has well developed Sp Ed programs. Our own city public school,system, despite very high per pupil funding, cannot produce these programs.
My island had its first Pride event this weekend.
It was organized on short notice, by some young folks in the community, who weren't familiar with the normal protocols and methods followed to secure the Village Green, advertise events, and schedule around the busy summer/tourist event chaos. With some additional support, they managed to pull it off.
Saturday is the day of our Farmer's Market on the Green, and was also the Solstice Parade, which marks really the transition point between locals-dominated events, and touristy events. After the Solstice Parade, our locals-events are weird, as you feel like an animal in the zoo as twice as many tourists stand around watching our quaint ways as there are islanders participating. The Pride event was scheduled for the next day, Sunday.
Only two weeks before the event, in additional to social media outreach, physical posters went up in town. On billboards, and posted in the windows of many shops in the village.
So, this is the most "progressive" county in the state, and it is a pretty progressive state.
Nonetheless, posters were torn down (*), and some merchants had angry people in their stores yelling at them for daring to put up the notices in the windows. Several notices of trespass were served, the Sheriff had to remove several people, and law enforcement is now investigating some hate crimes that occurred.
The event itself went off very nicely, the weather was good, several great bands showed up to play at the bandstand during the day, local community service groups set up booths to raise awareness of available services and resources, there were also educational booths for various LGBTQIA+ issues, and there were some nice speeches. Only one person acted out during the event, and the Sheriff and Fire Department quickly resolved the situation.
It was an explicitly non-commercial event, so there were no vendors there, as seems to be the case these days in more mainstream Pride events. The coop grocery store across the street kindly had an array of inexpensive food/drink items ready if people were motivated to walk 100 feet.
It was a great shame to see the pre-event hate, but the event itself was very welcoming to all.
(*) Also, someone replaced many of the event posters with this:
2843
My island had its first Pride event this weekend.
...
(*) Also, someone replaced many of the event posters with this:
2843
Ha! Predictable level of literacy and aesthetics. (Is that supposed to be a pentagram or something?)
Ha! Predictable level of literacy and aesthetics. (Is that supposed to be a pentagram or something?)
I thought perhaps it was the anarchist symbol. This particular poster design might be the result of a false-flag operation, as it is so over-the-top silly - we never caught a good video image of this troublemaker.
Yes--looks like the anarchist symbol. I thought the "horns" were upside-down. False flag makes some sense.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/29/business/fifth-third-bank-florida-voucher-trnd/index.html
"Florida's Tax Credit Scholarship lets companies make tax-deductible contributions that funds vouchers to private schools for low-income students. The program sparked backlash following an Orlando Sentinel investigation that found 83 of 1,000 private religious schools, which accepted the vouchers, had anti-LGBTQ policies, including banning students from attending the schools or expel them for their sexual orientation."
Apparently, the next hot issue is puberty blockers for trans kids:
https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/1/29/21083505/transgender-kids-legislation-puberty-blockers
It would be nice if doctors, parents, and the children involved were allowed to make such decisions without government getting involved.
iris lilies
1-29-20, 1:34pm
Apparently, the next hot issue is puberty blockers for trans kids:
https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/1/29/21083505/transgender-kids-legislation-puberty-blockers
It would be nice if doctors, parents, and the children involved were allowed to make such decisions without government getting involved.
I will admit it worries me that hormones and anti-hormones are given to children based on their conviction of the moment. But medically, I do not know what is reversible and what isnt.
I regularly see in dogs effects of early neutering (lack of appropriate hormones) that negatively affects their bone development, so I cannot believe these treatments are all benign.
But in the end I prefer the government stay out of a medical treatment where patient, parent, and physician are involved. Some kids get better parenting than others. That’s the breaks, who kids draw for a parent is a crapshoot.
I see this as a societal swing far away from treatment of gender-ambiguous kids decades ago, where doctors decided a gender for the patient based on physical characteristics. I realize it is a different situation, but over all, societally similar. I will bet there’s lots of adults who wish the government had stepped in to keep doctors from making permanent changes to their tiny bodies.
And if mommy lets her 11-year-old decide he’s a girl today well OK and if that action permanently changes his body, I am not sure that is ok. Medically treating these kids seems like a complex issue and I’m glad i dont have to make any decisions in that arena.
It's a difficult and complicated issue, that's for sure.
Teacher Terry
1-29-20, 3:44pm
I think it’s a bad idea to give kids hormones, etc. Let them grow up and decide as adults. I didn’t neuter max until he was 11 months and hadn’t grown for 3 months. A dog I spayed at 6 months had a unusual growth spurt at 2 and back pain for life.
Apparently, the next hot issue is puberty blockers for trans kids:
https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/1/29/21083505/transgender-kids-legislation-puberty-blockers
It would be nice if doctors, parents, and the children involved were allowed to make such decisions without government getting involved.
I have a trans-niece. I do hope they do hormone blockers soon. The male hormone onset of large bone structure etc cannot be reversed. If she were to decide in a year, that she really wants to be male, stop the blockers and the body proceeds with testosterone driven biology. I worked with a trans woman last year. Her challenge at work was exactly that large male bone structure that made her "stand out".
Blockers are desirable initially for pre-hormone teens rather than going straight to estrogen/testosterone treatment and seldom will a provider prescribe the hormones immediately as this decision can be temporary.
A 2008 study found 61% desisted from their transgender identity before reaching the age of 29,[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition#cite_note-17) and a 2013 study found 63% desisted before age 20.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition#cite_note-18) A 2019 clinical assessment found that 9.4% of patients with adolescent-emerging gender dysphoria ceased wishing to pursue medical interventions and/or no longer felt that their gender identity was incongruent with their biological sex within an eighteen-month period.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition#cite_note-19)
It is a challenging time for the immediate family. I'm grateful my niece is alive. Prior to this decision he had been a severe cutter having hidden it for 18 months until a friend turned him to the Nurse at school. My nephew took him to counseling where she remains a regular client and for that I continue to be grateful.
I know there's a window for hormone-blocking; which is why legislation like this is so cruel.
It really is a difficult issue. I wonder how much ongoing research is being done to pinpoint the cause of this phenomenon.
iris lilies
1-29-20, 5:16pm
I have a trans-niece. I do hope they do hormone blockers soon. The male hormone onset of large bone structure etc cannot be reversed. If she were to decide in a year, that she really wants to be male, stop the blockers and the body proceeds with testosterone driven biology. I worked with a trans woman last year. Her challenge at work was exactly that large male bone structure that made her "stand out".
Blockers are desirable initially for pre-hormone teens rather than going straight to estrogen/testosterone treatment and seldom will a provider prescribe the hormones immediately as this decision can be temporary.
A 2008 study found 61% desisted from their transgender identity before reaching the age of 29,[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition#cite_note-17) and a 2013 study found 63% desisted before age 20.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition#cite_note-18) A 2019 clinical assessment found that 9.4% of patients with adolescent-emerging gender dysphoria ceased wishing to pursue medical interventions and/or no longer felt that their gender identity was incongruent with their biological sex within an eighteen-month period.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition#cite_note-19)
It is a challenging time for the immediate family. I'm grateful my niece is alive. Prior to this decision he had been a severe cutter having hidden it for 18 months until a friend turned him to the Nurse at school. My nephew took him to counseling where she remains a regular client and for that I continue to be grateful.
Thanks for this explanation. So, if I understand then, hormone blockers are thought to be relatively benign since they stop sexual development temporarily.
Also if I understand correctly, a super high percentage, 60+%, backtrack from wanting to change genders.
Thanks for this explanation. So, if I understand then, hormone blockers are thought to be relatively benign since they stop sexual development temporarily.
Also if I understand correctly, a super high percentage, 60+%, backtrack from wanting to change genders.
This is the way I understand the current line of thought by Trans experts.
I suspect it will be 20-40 years before we know if hormone blockers cause damage or "simply" the delay as current thinking goes. Blocking is considered more relevant to prevent testosterone as those developments cannot be reversed. Female development is considerably less obvious other than breasts and the current thought is "simple mastectomy" if the trans male wants a flat chest. Many simply use binders rather than surgery and seem to be very comfortable with that choice.
The visual is what causes so much of the struggle in society. Bruce Jenner was always rather feminine. As a woman though, his male stature is distracting and overtly obvious. This is what today's young trans females are trying to figure out.
My niece is not concerned. She is simply blissful to be living female. She is not overt or verbal. In her eyes it's a simple difference and mostly internal for her. She dresses very generically-continuing with jeans and t shirts as always. No desire/need for pink, sparkly, dresses, heels...nothing girly for her.
We're in a large redneck family and we have a reunion this summer. It's going to be interesting to say the least. DH and I have sought counseling to better support her and assist family transition. We'll see how it goes!
Teacher Terry
1-29-20, 7:08pm
Thanks for explaining Gard. I am glad you are supporting her.
So, on the 4th anniversary of the Pulse nightclub shootings, Trump has eliminated anti-discrimination provisions for LGBTQ folks in healthcare and health insurance. Well played, Trump, well played...
https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/06/12/hhs-finalizes-rule-section-1557-protecting-civil-rights-healthcare.html
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/06/12/868073068/transgender-health-protections-reversed-by-trump-administration
Teacher Terry
6-14-20, 4:09pm
Bae, just when you think the orange moron can’t go lower he does.
He's reversed protection for bears in Alaska. I can't read the details.
He's truly a despicable individual.
So, on the 4th anniversary of the Pulse nightclub shootings, Trump has eliminated anti-discrimination provisions for LGBTQ folks in healthcare and health insurance. Well played, Trump, well played...
https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/06/12/hhs-finalizes-rule-section-1557-protecting-civil-rights-healthcare.html
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/06/12/868073068/transgender-health-protections-reversed-by-trump-administration
Yeah--he likes the symbolism in committing outrageous acts on relevant dates--like scheduling one of his Hitleresque rallies on Juneteenth in a city known for its historical massacre of blacks.
happystuff
6-14-20, 5:56pm
Just received my mail-in ballot. I'll do my share to get him - and others - gone.
gimmethesimplelife
6-14-20, 9:55pm
Bae, just when you think the orange moron can’t go lower he does.Nonething Trump does could surprise me any more. Nothing. Rob
iris lilies
6-14-20, 10:53pm
Just received my mail-in ballot. I'll do my share to get him - and others - gone.You’re voting in the presidential election in June?
Who is the Democratic candidate? Is it old Joe, or did they pull someone better out of their hat at the last minute?
I ask because you seem to be in a time warp of the future.
happystuff
6-15-20, 7:31am
You’re voting in the presidential election in June?
Who is the Democratic candidate? Is it old Joe, or did they pull someone better out of their hat at the last minute?
I ask because you seem to be in a time warp of the future.
No time warp here - you are making incorrect assumptions. I said I received my mail-in ballot, NOT that I was voting in the presidential election in June. It is my primary ballot and I will be doing my share to get him and others gone by VOTING - starting now... in June.
iris lilies
6-15-20, 9:25am
No time warp here - you are making incorrect assumptions. I said I received my mail-in ballot, NOT that I was voting in the presidential election in June. It is my primary ballot and I will be doing my share to get him and others gone by VOTING - starting now... in June.
oh the primary! I forget that some states are still dealing with their primaries. Thanks!
happystuff
6-15-20, 10:17am
oh the primary! I forget that some states are still dealing with their primaries. Thanks!
:+1:
So, on the 4th anniversary of the Pulse nightclub shootings, Trump has eliminated anti-discrimination provisions for LGBTQ folks in healthcare and health insurance. Well played, Trump, well played...
https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/06/12/hhs-finalizes-rule-section-1557-protecting-civil-rights-healthcare.html
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/06/12/868073068/transgender-health-protections-reversed-by-trump-administration
I thought the provisions in question, namely the use of 'gender identity' as a basis of discrimination, never went into effect due to a court ruling in 2016. If that's correct then the change in question now brings federal policy into line with court rulings.
That understanding seems to be confirmed in the HHS.GOV link you provided although the NPR link seems to blame the current administration even though the provisions were effectively eliminated by federal courts during the previous administration. I wonder why they would leave the two federal court rulings in 2016 part out? Weird huh?
Stochastic Terrorism in Colorado Springs.
JaneV2.0
11-21-22, 10:45pm
Stochastic Terrorism in Colorado Springs.
There seems to be a lot of that going on these days, though it's hardly ever acknowledged.
Thankfully, there were a couple of good guys without guns in the crowd who nipped his plans in the bud.
Thankfully, there were a couple of good guys without guns in the crowd who nipped his plans in the bud.
I understand that one of the good guys was an Army veteran who used the attacker’s gun to bludgeon him.
I was pleased to learn this, as a USAF firearms instructor once advised me that my most effective use of an M-16 would be as a club.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 10:45am
Stochastic Terrorism in Colorado Springs.
“Stochastic terrorism” is the new free-speech bludgeoning tool adopted by the left. I just learned it myself in a Scientific American opinion piece (oddly, not scientific at all ) about Christopher Rulo and his CRT awareness reporting.
catherine
11-22-22, 10:48am
“Stochastic terrorism” is the new free-speech bludgeoning tool adopted by the left. I just learned it myself in a Scientific American opinion piece (oddly, not scientific at all ) about Christopher Rulo and his CRT awareness reporting.
Can you inform the ignorant? In what context is it being used? What does it mean?
littlebittybobby
11-22-22, 10:58am
Okay---I'm all for those alphabet people having zackly the same limited rights and protections I have. Yup. But yeah---for us and the Pols in D.C. to be squabbling about the incident in Doo Doo Town or wherever, is micro-managing the situation. They caught the guy, now electrocute him, and get it over with. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
My understanding was that “stochastic terrorism” has become fashionable as a way to lay the blame for an individual act of terror on somebody’s rhetoric. The reasoning is that such speech makes violence statistically likely to occur. It is used mainly by the mostly peaceful political left.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 11:22am
My understanding was that “stochastic terrorism” has become fashionable as a way to lay the blame for an individual act of terror on somebody’s rhetoric. The reasoning is that such speech makes violence statistically likely to occur. It is used mainly by the mostly peaceful political left.
Yes, please do not speak your ugly thinky-thoughts. Your speech will incite random, unpredictable violence at any time throughout our land, at any place, and YOU will be responsible!
So therefore, you need to STFU.
This is what Wikipedia says. In my mind it seems to be used more by the far right inspired by extreme Republican political talk, i.e. Jan.6 or Pelosi. In an opinion piece in today's NYT, the article claims it was "only a matter of time" as in predictable, and clearly placed blame on far right fixations on the LGBTQ communities. I don't see much room for quibbling on the issue.
While the exact definition has morphed over time, it has commonly come to refer to a concept whereby consistently demonizing or dehumanizing a targeted group or individual results in violence that is statistically likely, but cannot be easily accurately predicted.
Yes, please do not speak your ugly thinky-thoughts. Your speech will incite random, unpredictable violence at any time throughout our land, at any place, and YOU will be responsible!
So therefore, you need to STFU.
Plus, it sounds more science-y than “bad vibes”, “dark energy” or “evil spirits”.
catherine
11-22-22, 12:24pm
Responses as predicted.
Yes, so we should all just say "Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me." Until, of course, they do.
Thanks to Mike Pompeo I predict that the next, or at least one of the next, random totally unexpected targets of violence that republicans will say couldn't possibly be predicted will be Randi Weingarten.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 12:45pm
Responses as predicted.
Just balancing the ledger, my friend.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 12:49pm
Thanks to Mike Pompeo I predict that the next, or at least one of the next, random totally unexpected targets of violence that republicans will say couldn't possibly be predicted will be Randi Weingarten.
The random, totally unexpected violence of David Dorn’s St. Louis death had NOTHING to do with the geographically and time aligned Black Lives Matter protests in the street.
NOTHING. We can’t predict these events of crowd violence and mob mentality.
Yes, so we should all just say "Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me." Until, of course, they do.
Yes. One can pick out a marginalized group, repeatedly accuse them of all sorts of outlandish things, introduce (and perhaps pass) legislation that attacks their very existence, use the group as a focus point to rally your supporters, and then...
... look shocked, shocked I tell you, that some crazy went off and decided that because the group was abducting Christian children and sacrificing them to demons in the basement of a pizza parlor that it was time to act...
And if anyone complains, why, they're just trying to shut down free speech, right? Probably they too are enemies of society....
Repeat as necessary.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 12:57pm
Yes. One can pick out a marginalized group, repeatedly accuse them of all sorts of outlandish things, introduce (and perhaps pass) legislation that attacks their very existence, use the group as a focus point to rally your supporters, and then...
... look shocked, shocked I tell you, that some crazy went off and decided that because the group was abducting Christian children and sacrificing them to demons in the basement of a pizza parlor that it was time to act...
And if anyone complains, why, they're just trying to shut down free speech, right? Probably they too are enemies of society....
Repeat as necessary.
Everyone can tell anyone else to STFU as far as I’m concerned, whatever. You are not the boss of me, to continue the playground rhetoric of sticks and stones.
It’s when the government gets involved that we all need to pay attention. The Democratic Party operatives in the white House have been flirting with that for years. Frankly, I’m shocked that Trump didn’t make a big effort to tamp down free speech, specifically anti-Donald speech. Maybe he did and we just don’t know about it. It seems right up Donald Trump’s alley.
You could establish a Disinformation Governance Board and staff it with Oberlin graduates and NPR senior correspondents. You could adopt Canadian style Human Rights Tribunals. You could send Dave Chappelle to a Supermax facility and carpet bomb Fox News.
But crazy people will still do crazy things.
I was pleased to learn this, as a USAF firearms instructor once advised me that my most effective use of an M-16 would be as a club.
The buffer tube assembly is generally considered too fragile for that.
The M1 Garand rifles the US Army provided me are considerably stouter, have a solid hardwood stock with a gnarly metal butt plate, and the M1905 bayonet, which they also provided, has a 16" blade (*). Perhaps a wiser choice for use as an impact tool.
(*) I find the later-model M1 bayonet, which is a M1905 cut down to 10", balances better and is handier as a camp tool. Grandpa told me though the M1905 was preferred when he was in the Pacific in WWII, as the foes faced had longer rifles and bayonets themselves.
It’s when the government gets involved that we all need to pay attention.
Well, you better start paying attention. It's been a record several years for the introduction of anti-LGBTQ legislation by political leaders. Most of the bills aren't getting anywhere, yet, but the introduction and debate process does seem to be great red meat being thrown to the base to attract votes and $$$ donations.
https://www.aclu.org/legislation-affecting-lgbtq-rights-across-country
iris lilies
11-22-22, 1:12pm
You could establish a Disinformation Governance Board and staff it with Oberlin graduates and NPR senior correspondents. You could adopt Canadian style Human Rights Tribunals. You could send Dave Chappelle to a Supermax facility and carpet bomb Fox News.
But crazy people will still do crazy things.
This piece of ridiculousness was not only laughable, it was scary. It was one step beyond Obama’s website set up for people to tattle on others who dissed the President.
Again, I am shocked that DJT didn’t adopt these efforts. This lack certainly was not due to his principled stance.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 1:13pm
Well, you better start paying attention. It's been a record several years for the introduction of anti-LGBTQ legislation by political leaders. Most of the bills aren't getting anywhere, yet, but the introduction and debate process does seem to be great red meat being thrown to the base to attract votes and $$$ donations.
https://www.aclu.org/legislation-affecting-lgbtq-rights-across-country
speech? This is about the feds limiting speech? How so?
About the trans kid medicalized treatment thing, I honestly do not understand how a physician “treats” trans kids without drugs or surgery.
I once asked the question of someone on the MMM site who claimed to have experience in this realm and never got an answer, but I did get lots of unhelpful attitude. My context in asking was: if I were a parent I would want to know about treatment i.e. surgery and medications.
The buffer tube assembly is generally considered too fragile for that.
The M1 Garand rifles the US Army provided me are considerably stouter, have a solid hardwood stock with a gnarly metal butt plate, and the M1905 bayonet, which they also provided, has a 16" blade (*). Perhaps a wiser choice for use as an impact tool.
(*) I find the later-model M1 bayonet, which is a M1905 cut down to 10", balances better and is handier as a camp tool. Grandpa told me though the M1905 was preferred when he was in the Pacific in WWII, as the foes faced had longer rifles and bayonets themselves.
I think if you were to ask him the poor man would say I was deadlier with a pool noodle than anything involving pulling a trigger.
I understand that one of the good guys was an Army veteran who used the attacker’s gun to bludgeon him.
I was pleased to learn this, as a USAF firearms instructor once advised me that my most effective use of an M-16 would be as a club.
:D
Yes. One can pick out a marginalized group, repeatedly accuse them of all sorts of outlandish things, introduce (and perhaps pass) legislation that attacks their very existence, use the group as a focus point to rally your supporters, and then...
... look shocked, shocked I tell you, that some crazy went off and decided that because the group was abducting Christian children and sacrificing them to demons in the basement of a pizza parlor that it was time to act...
And if anyone complains, why, they're just trying to shut down free speech, right? Probably they too are enemies of society....
Repeat as necessary.
Except the perpetrators aren't crazy; they know exactly who they're attacking, and why.
This piece of ridiculousness was not only laughable, it was scary. It was one step beyond Obama’s website set up for people to tattle on others who dissed the President.
Again, I am shocked that DJT didn’t adopt these efforts. This lack certainly was not due to his principled stance.
I think the guy thrives on hate speech, both his and others’ directed at him.
The average yahoo is free to spew his hate speech among the like-minded, but is it too much to ask that our elected leaders at least temper theirs? Marjorie Taylor-Greene stating--with no evidence at all--that Democrats have started killing Republicans? Trump and others incessantly banging on about evil immigrants and asylum-seekers? The ceaseless anti-trans narrative that suggests they somehow harm children? A lot of public figures are on the record saying Democrats should be killed--(Ted Nugent, MTG, Trump retweet). Perfectly OK?
(Don't shoot--I'm an independent!)
iris lilies
11-22-22, 3:22pm
The average yahoo is free to spew his hate speech among the like-minded, but is it too much to ask that our elected leaders at least temper theirs? Marjorie Taylor-Greene stating--with no evidence at all--that Democrats have started killing Republicans? Trump and others incessantly banging on about evil immigrants and asylum-seekers? The ceaseless anti-trans narrative that suggests they somehow harm children? A lot of public figures are on the record saying Democrats should be killed--(Ted Nugent, MTG, Trump retweet). Perfectly OK?
(Don't shoot--I'm an independent!)
It’s not ok, and we address that by voting the bastards out. But let us not go down the path of the righteous Austrians who throw their Wrong-thinkers in jail.
It’s not ok, and we address that by voting the bastards out. But let us not go down the path of the righteous Austrians who throw their Wrong-thinkers in jail.
How’d that ‘vote MTG out’ thing work out? Or the ‘don’t vote for the presidential candidate that mocks disabled people and calls mexican immigrants rapists and murderers’ thing. Since one of our political parties has figured out that whipping up hatred and fear is a successful electoral strategy there’s not much to be done beyond pointing out that collectively they are a bunch of mean, shitty people who don’t care that their words cause harmful actions.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 3:57pm
How’d that ‘vote MTG out’ thing work out? Or the ‘don’t vote for the presidential candidate that mocks disabled people and calls mexican immigrants rapists and murderers’ thing. Since one of our political parties has figured out that whipping up hatred and fear is a successful electoral strategy there’s not much to be done beyond pointing out that collectively they are a bunch of mean, shitty people who don’t care that their words cause harmful actions.
Well see,JP, you have only one vote because you’re one person. There’s a couple hundred million others who also will vote not necessary based on the sticks and stones words.
But if you’d rather have your guy in the White House just throw the wrong thinkers in jail…yikes.
It’s not ok, and we address that by voting the bastards out. But let us not go down the path of the righteous Austrians who throw their Wrong-thinkers in jail.
That worked somewhat in the last election; I hope it's a continuing trend.
Maybe less-rabid Republicans could stand up and condemn at least the most egregious examples. Not holding my breath.
But if you’d rather have your guy in the White House just throw the wrong thinkers in jail…yikes.
I don't see wrong thinkers being thrown in jail right now. I do see the floor in a place I've been to strewn with bodies and covered with blood.
Hand-wringing about "OMG, we're gonna be censored" seems a bit....precious.... at the moment.
Shame.
Well see,JP, you have only one vote because you’re one person. There’s a couple hundred million others who also will vote not necessary based on the sticks and stones words.
But if you’d rather have your guy in the White House just throw the wrong thinkers in jail…yikes.
I’m not saying throw them in jail. I’m suggesting that republicans who claim to find them offensive need to actually show that it’s unacceptable by not voting for the turds. Otherwise I’ll continue to assume that those voters are cool with their politicians being bullies who get people killed.
I’m not saying throw them in jail. I’m suggesting that republicans who claim to find them offensive need to actually show that it’s unacceptable by not voting for the turds. Otherwise I’ll continue to assume that those voters are cool with their politicians being bullies who get people killed.
I may be a bit behind on my daily outrage consumption, can you tell me what Republican politicians have said to cause the latest 'crazy guy with a gun' event?
iris lilies
11-22-22, 4:51pm
I don't see wrong thinkers being thrown in jail right now. I do see the floor in a place I've been to strewn with bodies and covered with blood.
Hand-wringing about "OMG, we're gonna be censored" seems a bit....precious.... at the moment.
Shame.
Does this mean you do not agree with the junk spewed by nut jobs, but more importantly, you do not support their right to say it?
Gaslighting.
Oh, is that where we are now, making accusations against anyone asking simple questions?
Does this mean you do not agree with the junk spewed by nut jobs, but more importantly, you do not support their right to say it?
Sophistry.
catherine
11-22-22, 4:57pm
I don't think it's an issue of free press vs censored press. It's an issue of more people claiming their right to say and do outrageous things because the political atmosphere grants permission. It's an issue of the previous political leadership and some of the present-day acolytes leading by example, and in this case, hateful, incendiary example. I'm sure there are many people who are happy to take the lid off their violent predilections because, after all, the former President's mocking, jeering, shunning, and outlawing sends a clear message that it's OK.
Oh, is that where we are now, making accusations against anyone asking simple questions?
Sophistry.
Hmm, I guess so.
Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group. (American Library Association)
I may be a bit behind on my daily outrage consumption, can you tell me what Republican politicians have said to cause the latest 'crazy guy with a gun' event?
"...the latest 'evil guy with a gun...'" fixed it for you.
If you enter "Republican anti-gay rhetoric" into a search engine, you'll get a wealth of information back.
From the first article cited:
This past election, Republican candidates ran on a platform that characterized queer and transgender people as “groomers.” They targeted the families that support them as criminals. And many of the candidates talking like this won their races. In less than a decade, the right has managed to breathe new life into an old, dangerous narrative — queer and transgender people are threats to children and to the health of the nation. This strategic scapegoating is by design. It galvanizes white, conservative GOP voters by stoking the basest of emotions — fear of erasure.
Ed note: the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual, often married men
That worked somewhat in the last election; I hope it's a continuing trend.
Maybe less-rabid Republicans could stand up and condemn at least the most egregious examples. Not holding my breath.
It would also be helpful if Democrats stopped writing checks to help the “rabid” sort of Republicans win their primaries against the other sort.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 9:06pm
"...the latest 'evil guy with a gun...'" fixed it for you.
If you enter "Republican anti-gay rhetoric" into a search engine, you'll get a wealth of information back.
From the first article cited:
This past election, Republican candidates ran on a platform that characterized queer and transgender people as “groomers.” They targeted the families that support them as criminals. And many of the candidates talking like this won their races. In less than a decade, the right has managed to breathe new life into an old, dangerous narrative — queer and transgender people are threats to children and to the health of the nation. This strategic scapegoating is by design. It galvanizes white, conservative GOP voters by stoking the basest of emotions — fear of erasure.
Ed note: the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual, often married men
I don’t think LGBTQ people abuse minors at any bigger rate than hetero men do, but of course there’s more heterosexual pedophiles because there’s just more heterosexual men in the world.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 9:12pm
Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group. (American Library Association)
And that’s the tricky part, determining when speech directly incites criminal activity.
Black Lives Matters leaders have no responsibility for the wreckage and mayhem caused during their “peaceful “protests. Anti-police speechifying has no consequences I need to notice. Yet, police Captain David Dorn is dead. What an unfortunate coincidence.
iris lilies
11-22-22, 9:55pm
Whataboutism.
I will admit that I find what aboutism to be a dull argumentative tactic and so I often don’t bother with rejoinders because like I said, it’s boring. But David Dorn was at the top of my mind because we had out-of-state guests here this week and we talked about him.
I may be a bit behind on my daily outrage consumption, can you tell me what Republican politicians have said to cause the latest 'crazy guy with a gun' event?
Ok groomer.
Our vigil, winding down.
https://i.imgur.com/nAH8otX.jpg
And now Mx Aldrich is reported to be non-binary, which would seem to potentially put some commentors in a quandary. Can we accept that as a fact that only mean-spirited Republicans and other bigots would dare refute or will we need to re-evaluate his/their motive and influences? As for me, I'm sticking with 'he's crazy'.
gimmethesimplelife
11-23-22, 12:04pm
Something happened in this area recently that stunned me. Now I am out at work but also very low key. I do not take LGBT activism (or police activism, either) into the workplace. I just don't.
I was stunned the other day when the GM non-chalantly asked me if I'd be bringing my husband (yes, he did say husband) to the off site no alcohol holiday gathering. This one question really showed me how much LGBT rights have advanced in this country, regardless of what happened in Colorado Springs. And yes we will be attending - but very low key. Rob
And now Mx Aldrich is reported to be non-binary, which would seem to potentially put some commentors in a quandary. Can we accept that as a fact that only mean-spirited Republicans and other bigots would dare refute or will we need to re-evaluate his/their motive and influences? As for me, I'm sticking with 'he's crazy'.
He does seem to have a fairly standard crazy guy biography. But I don’t suppose that’s a barrier to attributing his actions to vile emanations from deplorable rhetoric. It’s one of those unfalsifiable propositions we so often see in the culture wars.
iris lilies
11-23-22, 12:22pm
Mx Aldrich’s motivations:
1. Mx adopts non binary identity on the advice of his attorneys to lessen the hate crime element of his dastardly act
or
2. Mx adopts non binary persona some time ago, hates himself for it, wants to shoot up his influencers
or
3. Mx happily adopts non binary persona some time ago ( months? Years?) and having been to this club several times, knows the layout and it is just a familiar place for him to act out
or
4.Mx be crazy
pick one, or name others if not on this list
iris lilies
11-23-22, 12:23pm
Something happened in this area recently that stunned me. Now I am out at work but also very low key. I do not take LGBT activism (or police activism, either) into the workplace. I just don't.
I was stunned the other day when the GM non-chalantly asked me if I'd be bringing my husband (yes, he did say husband) to the off site no alcohol holiday gathering. This one question really showed me how much LGBT rights have advanced in this country, regardless of what happened in Colorado Springs. And yes we will be attending - but very low key. Rob
That is nice, Rob.
iris lilies
11-23-22, 12:29pm
Ok groomer.
Mildly funny play on words. I will give you a B-.
JaneV2.0
11-23-22, 12:41pm
#1 was my first take on it, but time will tell. Very few of these monsters are what I would call crazy. He could very well be a self-hating non-binary person stirred by all the hateful rhetoric we stew in.
The pace of positive change can be discouraging, Rob, but yes, we've come a long way in my lifetime.
It's entirely possible to imagine a situation in which the shooter falls into multiple categories *at the same time*:
1) is non-binary
2) is crazy
3) was radicalized by the growing anti-LGBTQ rhetoric of our political leaders spilling into the real world
iris lilies
11-23-22, 1:35pm
It's entirely possible to imagine a situation in which the shooter falls into multiple categories *at the same time*:
1) is non-binary
2) is crazy
3) was radicalized by the growing anti-LGBTQ rhetoric of our political leaders spilling into the real world
Yes, I accept that more than one could be true at the same time.Certainly there are seemingly disparate elements that can be woven into the narrative of your ( the generic you) choice, using imagination and hope.
It's entirely possible to imagine a situation in which the shooter falls into multiple categories *at the same time*:
1) is non-binary
2) is crazy
3) was radicalized by the growing anti-LGBTQ rhetoric of our political leaders spilling into the real world
Is it still gaslighting to imagine only a few of those categories?
Is it still gaslighting to imagine only a few of those categories?
Come now...
For myself, I have enough trouble discerning the motivations of (superficially) sane minds, much less confidently explaining how insane minds are programmed by the angertainment industry.
For instance, there are FBI agents walking the halls of my kid’s high school this morning. A shortened day was further shortened by a bomb threat. The feds are involved because the threat was traced to somewhere in Canada. I could see this, along with the Pelosi attack, as clear evidence of a pattern of Canadian violence. Or I could just wait for further details. I find it takes less effort to wait for details to emerge than try to build onto a pre-existing narrative with mismatched parts.
littlebittybobby
11-23-22, 2:43pm
Okay---Darn Right, LDAHL! Send up the B-52's to avenge this! In case you kids don't know and don't care, there has been a mass-murder at an employee break room in Cheseapeake, Va. with 6 down. The suspect allegedly committed suicide. It mighta been the work of an idealistic member of an anti-walmart-employee hate group! I'll have to see the Tee-vee reports and the made-for-tee-vee movee, before I'm convinced, though. Anyway, the killer didn't slash his victims with a knife, or throw gas on them and light it, or take an axe to them or run them down in the parkin' lot. . Nope. Thankfully, a handgun was used! Aren't you Gladd? As I write this, the ink is drying on paperwork organizing a WEDSVG(Wallymart Employee Deranged Supervisor Victims Group), and asking for cash contributions. The goal is $50 million, but hopefully more. Just remember: Inside every black cloud is a silver lining. Yup.. Hope that helps you some. Thankk me.
Another tragedy. That's what happens when you live in a hate-based society.
littlebittybobby
11-23-22, 4:07pm
Another tragedy. That's what happens when you live in a hate-based society.Yup. Prolly so. Truthfully, what's going on is our own internal undeclared vietnam-style war. Our "troops" haven't got a national cause to fight for overseas, so it's each man to himself, fighting as a commando. Guerrilla warfare. Why can't we all just get along, and be satisfied with watching Football? But yeah--the reason I offer that theory is that I've listen to accounts of young kids out of high school who immediately signed up for military service, and were shipped off to fight in foreign wars. They were just gullible and idealistic kids, who thought boy---this will be an adventure! Stuff like that. Hope that helps you some. It seems to be a syndrome, that affects some people, like Charles Whitman or Lee Oswald. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
For myself, I have enough trouble discerning the motivations of (superficially) sane minds, much less confidently explaining how insane minds are programmed by the angertainment industry.
For instance, there are FBI agents walking the halls of my kid’s high school this morning. A shortened day was further shortened by a bomb threat. The feds are involved because the threat was traced to somewhere in Canada. I could see this, along with the Pelosi attack, as clear evidence of a pattern of Canadian violence. Or I could just wait for further details. I find it takes less effort to wait for details to emerge than try to build onto a pre-existing narrative with mismatched parts.
Indeed. It takes crazy rationalization to watch a bunch of politicians and their supporters in the media vilify and demonize groups of people for years and then those groups become targets of violence. And frankly those same politicians can take their worthless ‘thoughts and prayers’ and shove them up their sorry, hateful asses.
And frankly those same politicians can take their worthless ‘thoughts and prayers’ and shove them up their sorry, hateful asses.
The mood amongst the < 40 years olds at our vigil last night was very much leaning in the "it's time to pick up a hammer and start smashing things, no more thoughts and prayers are wanted..." direction. Previous events have had a more peace-hugs-and-unicorn sorta vibe.
Me, I've been providing self-defense training to LGBTQ folks since the 1980s, because I don't see "society" stepping up to protect folks, and indeed, these days the direction appears to be going the opposite, in parts of the USA.
Even here, we had one drive-by last night of a large dually diesel pickup truck(*) flying a giant American flag from the bed. This is driven by one of the same fellows who is no longer welcome at the medical centers, grocery stores, and pharmacy here because of his trespasses during an anti-mask event he helped organize. I'm sure that's not connected to why he honked his horn, "rolled coal", and shouted incomprehensible words from his truck last night while folks were silently mourning. At 8PM on our main 15mph street, in an otherwise dark and closed(**) village.
"Very fine people on both sides"...
(*) which I've never ever seen on a job site here, or towing anything.
(**) they pretty much roll up the sidewalks here at 7PM in the winter.
Ted Cruz's teenage daughter came out as bi earlier this year. And today she attempted suicide. While we don't know at this point what drove her to do that the reality is that statistically LGBTQ youth are significantly more likely to attempt suicide than their straight counterparts. I hope that she finds the support and love that she, and all LGBTQ youth, need to get through what is a difficult time in most LGBTQ people's lives. It might also help her and all the other LGBTQ teens out there if republicans stopped demonizing LGBTQ people in general...
flowerseverywhere
12-8-22, 8:04am
Jp1, I agree so much with you on this one. These controversial lawmakers have families and they make their life anything but normal.
We were in a chipotle once in Northern Washington DC area. Suddenly the secret service came in, checked the restrooms and walked among the diners. They stationed themselves around the restaurant and Obama's teen daughter came in. She was with a group of friends and they were acting like teenagers having fun.
Can you imagine Barron Trump doing that?
The polarizing, demonizing speech of people like Ted Cruz, Trump, and Mark Meadows must be very hard on their families. Especially on teens who have so much societal pressure on them.
I don't like Cruz and I feel so awful for that poor you girl trying to navigate normal teenager stuff with a father like hers.
But I guess the midterms showed people are tired of Gay, Black, non Christians, even woman who medically need an abortion being demonized. The "Trump is just being Trump" excuse to dismiss uncivility, meanness and hate of segments of our citizens has been rejected across the country. With inflation and the unpopularity of Biden it should have been a red wave. Start treating all human beings like they are equal and valued members of our society.
iris lilies
12-8-22, 4:36pm
Jp1, I agree so much with you on this one. These controversial lawmakers have families and they make their life anything but normal.
We were in a chipotle once in Northern Washington DC area. Suddenly the secret service came in, checked the restrooms and walked among the diners. They stationed themselves around the restaurant and Obama's teen daughter came in. She was with a group of friends and they were acting like teenagers having fun.
Can you imagine Barron Trump doing that?
The polarizing, demonizing speech of people like Ted Cruz, Trump, and Mark Meadows must be very hard on their families. Especially on teens who have so much societal pressure on them.
I don't like Cruz and I feel so awful for that poor you girl trying to navigate normal teenager stuff with a father like hers.
But I guess the midterms showed people are tired of Gay, Black, non Christians, even woman who medically need an abortion being demonized. The "Trump is just being Trump" excuse to dismiss uncivility, meanness and hate of segments of our citizens has been rejected across the country. With inflation and the unpopularity of Biden it should have been a red wave. Start treating all human beings like they are equal and valued members of our society.
Perhaps the voters are tired of everyone being demonized, and using the personal problems of a 14 year old girl to beat your favorite hobby horse, the evil mean Republicans, is one kind of tiresome trope.
Fortunately, the Respect for Marriage act passed even though most of the evil mean Republicans voted against it. Would love to hear their reasoning. They'd probably say--with straight faces--that civil rights should be left up to the states. Missed your chance to be a mensch, Lindsey. I was pleasantly surprised to see Senator Romney voted in favor.
It seems there are so many more proclaimed bi or trans teens these days. Recently found out that my 13yo male nephew now identifies as she when previously he was they. I remain accepting of any person's gender identity but nevertheless confused...
It seems there are so many more proclaimed bi or trans teens these days. Recently found out that my 13yo male nephew now identifies as she when previously he was they. I remain accepting of any person's gender identity but nevertheless confused...
According to older, wiser people who have transitioned--like Buck Angel--young people should think and think again before taking any irreparable steps. Even chemical ones.
At least proclaiming yourself bi isn't immutable.
iris lilies
12-8-22, 5:59pm
According to older, wiser people who have transitioned--like Buck Angel--young people should think and think again before taking any irreparable steps. Even chemical ones.
At least proclaiming yourself bi isn't immutable.
Buck is certainly making the social media rounds these days telling tales of caution about medicalized transition and extreme surgeries too early.
His is considered hate speech, however. Which is one reason why the accusation of “hate speech “ lobbed at me doesn’t have much meaning to me.
Same with my girl Blair White, canceled on Youtube (technically, “ demonitized”) for her truth telling about de transitioning too early.
The Number of detransitioners on YouTube is high, but I know that the answer to that kind of hate speech is well, that’s a tiny percentage of transitioners and besides they have been pressured to detransition.
Who knows maybe so. My current favorite De-transitionor is Daisy Chadra who said she transitioned to male because she didn’t like the traditional roles women were supposed to take on. After living just a few years as a man, she has since transitioned back to being a young woman. This was not until after she cut off her breasts. But now she’s the mother of a baby that she produced in her own womb, and she has long blonde curls and a male partner, and is talking on YouTube about how she’s attracted to the idea of stay at home mom and wife.
You can’t make this shit up.
Fortunately, the Respect for Marriage act passed even though most of the evil mean Republicans voted against it. Would love to hear their reasoning. They'd probably say--with straight faces--that civil rights should be left up to the states. Missed your chance to be a mensch, Lindsey. I was pleasantly surprised to see Senator Romney voted in favor.
In the evil mean Republican circles I move in, the main objection I hear is that the bill provides insufficient protections for individuals who don’t want to provide services or support.
Some doctors and other scientists with questions about COVID vaccines are tiptoeing out of the closet now, too. I'm not sure how/when valid concerns became hate speech.
Related:
https://juliaserano.medium.com/anti-trans-grooming-and-social-contagion-claims-explained-a511a93b042f
flowerseverywhere
12-8-22, 6:25pm
Perhaps the voters are tired of everyone being demonized, and using the personal problems of a 14 year old girl to beat your favorite hobby horse, the evil mean Republicans, is one kind of tiresome trope.
maybe. But then there would have been the red wave they were predicting.
Instead most republicans did not support this act protecting all Americans equally, regardless of their religious beliefs. It also protects interracial couples. Ted Cruz did not support it, as most Republicans did not. I’m not sure what they are afraid of. No one is telling them they have to marry a same sex partner, or have an abortion or marry someone outside their race. Why is it so important to them?
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/29/ted-cruz-john-cornyn-same-sex-marriage-bill-senate/
Related:
https://juliaserano.medium.com/anti-trans-grooming-and-social-contagion-claims-explained-a511a93b042f
I don't understand the conservative obsession with transsexuality, or the focus on "grooming," which has never seemed to have anything to do with the subject at hand. But I guess it works to fire up their base.
iris lilies
12-8-22, 7:45pm
I don't understand the conservative obsession with transsexuality, or the focus on "grooming," which has never seemed to have anything to do with the subject at hand. But I guess it works to fire up their base.
And yet, you have expressed some concerns about medicalized transitioning of minors.
I consider promotion of medicalized gender transition to minors, along with minimizing very real negative effects of hormonal therapy, to be “grooming. “
And yet, you have expressed some concerns about medicalized transitioning of minors.
I consider promotion of medicalized gender transition to minors, along with minimizing very real negative effects of hormonal therapy, to be “grooming. “
Supporting transitioning is what you understand "grooming" to be? I think of it as a kind of seduction process in pedophilia.
I am concerned about the prevalence of medicalized transition in adolescents, whose brains aren't even close to being fully developed..
I am concerned about the prevalence of medicalized transition in adolescents, whose brains aren't even close to being fully developed..
Prevalence. Interesting word. I'm curious....
How many adolescents are there in the USA?
How many of them identify as trans?
How many of them are on puberty blockers?
How many Dominoe's Pizza locations are there for each adolescent on blockers in the USA?
( 25 million between ages of 12-17. ~300,000. ~5,000, or, about 0.02% of the adolescent population. 3.77 locations/person. )
Totally unrelated - how many kids in America today suffer from malnutrition which impacts development? I have more questions...
Maybe I should have written "increasing incidence" instead of "prevalence."
Yes--malnutrition could explain many things.
Perhaps the voters are tired of everyone being demonized, and using the personal problems of a 14 year old girl to beat your favorite hobby horse, the evil mean Republicans, is one kind of tiresome trope.
And perhaps LGBTQ people are tired of being targeted for demonization by republicans. I'll make an offer. If your team stops demonizing people like me I'll stop calling them out for being shitty human beings for doing so. Until your politicians agree to that deal I will keep calling them out.
iris lilies
12-8-22, 11:44pm
And perhaps LGBTQ people are tired of being targeted for demonization by republicans. I'll make an offer. If your team stops demonizing people like me I'll stop calling them out for being shitty human beings for doing so. Until your politicians agree to that deal I will keep calling them out.
You may continue to call out any speech you find repugnant, I support you at that. Unlike members of “your team “ who like to silence conflicting views, I don’t intend to silence you.
ApatheticNoMore
12-9-22, 12:47am
I don't think a 14 year old's experience means much either, except to her. Even if her parents are indeed horrible to live with, bad parents are found throughout the political spectrum, I have no doubt.
As for silencing though, it goes on on both sides, are we really supposed to believe Fox news (much less Newsmax etc.) gives equal and fair time to Democrats and liberals? I mean really. And that's basically what is being called "silencing conflicting views".
You may continue to call out any speech you find repugnant, I support you at that. Unlike members of “your team “ who like to silence conflicting views, I don’t intend to silence you.
Perhaps I should just start calling you groomer. After all it seems kind of suspicious that you don’t have kids and that you used to be a librarian. What are you trying to hide groomer? You seem kind of creepy.
iris lilies
12-9-22, 1:50am
Perhaps I should just start calling you groomer. After all it seems kind of suspicious that you don’t have kids and that you used to be a librarian. What are you trying to hide groomer? You seem kind of creepy.
Hunh?
iris lilies
12-9-22, 1:53am
I don't think a 14 year old's experience means much either, except to her. Even if her parents are indeed horrible to live with, bad parents are found throughout the political spectrum, I have no doubt.
As for silencing though, it goes on on both sides, are we really supposed to believe Fox news (much less Newsmax etc.) gives equal and fair time to Democrats and liberals? I mean really. And that's basically what is being called "silencing conflicting views".
oh no no no. When you say basically what has been called “silencing conflicting views is the fact that Fox News doesn’t bring up a complete in view…” No.
Silence is demonetizing Blair White. Silence is shutting down a comic and pulling him off stage when he makes a joke about gay men even though the joke is sympathetic to gay men. Silencing is removing tweets, posts, threads, IG stories, YouTube videos from social media platforms in the hundreds and perhaps thousands and banning their authors.
rosarugosa
12-9-22, 6:20am
What about that pathetic piece of work, Vicky Hartzler?
iris lilies
12-9-22, 1:05pm
What about that pathetic piece of work, Vicky Hartzler?
I had to look up to see what Vicki did. She’s not my congressional person but she is in the next door district. You mean she was crying about the latest Congressional bill about same-sex marriage?
ApatheticNoMore
12-9-22, 1:51pm
I don't see social media as fundamentally different than Fox news. If Fox news can present one perspective then social media can if it wants to as well. I'd bet anything that Fox news reaches a MUCH LARGER audience as well, so what are we even talking about, if Fox has greater reach then it's much more important.
iris lilies
12-9-22, 4:17pm
I don't see social media as fundamentally different than Fox news. If Fox news can present one perspective then social media can if it wants to as well. I'd bet anything that Fox news reaches a MUCH LARGER audience as well, so what are we even talking about, if Fox has greater reach then it's much more important.
hmm, I can see that. If one recognizes that Fox News and MS NBC each have a particular political bias, one needs to take that same realization to social media platforms.
My problem is that I perceive social media forums as the peoples’ town square where every voice may be heard. And there in lies the problem, my initial expectation is just wrong.
littlebittybobby
12-9-22, 5:08pm
Okay---it would be nice if Ol Joe could fix another pressing issue for demmacrats---the problems encountered in exiting a sinking vehicle. Yup. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.4992
Hunh?
Congrats on never having to deal with people baselessly calling you groomer and just being baffled by it. I wish I and other LGBTQ people could be so lucky. But thanks to team red we all don’t have such a luxury.
iris lilies
12-10-22, 11:06am
Congrats on never having to deal with people baselessly calling you groomer and just being baffled by it. I wish I and other LGBTQ people could be so lucky. But thanks to team red we all don’t have such a luxury.
Ooooo, ok. You have a point, but just barely.
Are we truly in a period of peak LGBT hatred compared to twenty or fifty years ago, or are we just magnifying every marginal wingnut through the internet funhouse mirror? Is the average American of 2022 less tolerant of sexual outliers than the average American of 1972?
Violence against the innocent is wrong, but this whole theory of hatred absorbed from the cultural ether also strikes me as wrong. There is no person or organization I trust to determine what expression is too dangerous to allow.
frugal-one
12-10-22, 11:45am
Are we truly in a period of peak LGBT hatred compared to twenty or fifty years ago, or are we just magnifying every marginal wingnut through the internet funhouse mirror? Is the average American of 2022 less tolerant of sexual outliers than the average American of 1972?
Violence against the innocent is wrong, but this whole theory of hatred absorbed from the cultural ether also strikes me as wrong. There is no person or organization I trust to determine what expression is too dangerous to allow.
In all kinds of situations? I am not sure. Remember Archie Bunker?
catherine
12-10-22, 12:00pm
I think the difference between 1972 and 2022 is the fact that some marginalized populations have finally found their voice. It hasn't been "hatred" from the cultural ether that has suppressed certain groups, but just the societal expectation that everyone should be and act in accordance to the rules of the dominant culture (read: white, cis male). DH is continually pining about how he wishes we could go back to the 50s. Well, in the 50s, blacks couldn't sit among whites in restaurants, or even go to the same rest rooms. Women couldn't get a job because if they did, that would be one less job available for a man.Post-divorce, DH's mother felt she could rise no higher than a clerk in Macy's, despite her incredble aptitude. Forget the LGBTQ+ community--they just kept that closet door shut tight due to retribution from society.
So, now, in 2022, the dominant culture of 1972 is simply reaping what is has sown. I don't think any of these marginalized groups are seeking dominance or revenge--just fairness and equality.
flowerseverywhere
12-10-22, 12:09pm
Are we truly in a period of peak LGBT hatred compared to twenty or fifty years ago, or are we just magnifying every marginal wingnut through the internet funhouse mirror? Is the average American of 2022 less tolerant of sexual outliers than the average American of 1972?
Violence against the innocent is wrong, but this whole theory of hatred absorbed from the cultural ether also strikes me as wrong. There is no person or organization I trust to determine what expression is too dangerous to allow.
you were lucky if you were never teased or beat up if you were a “sissy”.
even the Jingles.
hot dogs, armour hot dogs
all kinds of kids eat armour hot dogs
fat kids, skinny kids, kids who climb out n rocks
tough kids, sissy kids
even kids with chicken pox”
remember Matthew Shephatd in 1998 who was beaten, tortured and left to die for being gay?
of course we should all be less tolerant of these things. What kind of society are we if we tolerate hate, name calling. No wonder why young people are leaving churches in droves.
and Vicki Hatzler, who cried in Congress about same sex marriage. She has a nephew who was sent to conversion camp and if not for COVID and remote learning where he had no visibly of his sexual status would have been expelled from Christian College. He was on the verge of expulsion before then. It’s ugly out there.
iris lilies
12-10-22, 12:16pm
Ah, how fondly I remember the good old days when pointing out a crying woman in Congress would have been labeled misogynistic and Gloria Steinem would have had a thing or two to say about it. I miss my 2nd wave (or is it 3rd wave?) Feminist icons.
iris lilies
12-10-22, 12:20pm
I think the difference between 1972 and 2022 is the fact that some marginalized populations have finally found their voice. It hasn't been "hatred" from the cultural ether that has suppressed certain groups, but just the societal expectation that everyone should be and act in accordance to the rules of the dominant culture (read: white, cis male). DH is continually pining about how he wishes we could go back to the 50s. Well, in the 50s, blacks couldn't sit among whites in restaurants, or even go to the same rest rooms. Women couldn't get a job because if they did, that would be one less job available for a man.Post-divorce, DH's mother felt she could rise no higher than a clerk in Macy's, despite her incredble aptitude. Forget the LGBTQ+ community--they just kept that closet door shut tight due to retribution from society.
So, now, in 2022, the dominant culture of 1972 is simply reaping what is has sown. I don't think any of these marginalized groups are seeking dominance or revenge--just fairness and equality.
This is a reasonable review of where we are now. Thanks. It seems to me that jockeying for a voice in society as these formerly marginalized groups are doing DOES bring out too much pushback, which in turn seems to cause them to be…Extra.
littlebittybobby
12-10-22, 12:58pm
Okay----I bemember back in '72, when the local businesses in those littlebitty burgs waaaay up in the middle o' nowhere, all kept pads o' so-called "counter checks", and you could get gas to go driving around or groceries or whatever(beer), and request the counter checks from the cashier, and write one to pay and even for a little extra. Y'had ta fill in your accouint number o' course. But yeah---there was a short list o' people taped to the register whose checks were not acceptable. But by the end of the 70's, as the lists became longer, counter checks pretty much went the way o' the 45 rpm record. Yep. Hope that helps you recall the good ol; days. Thankk mee.
iris lilies
12-10-22, 1:55pm
Related:
https://juliaserano.medium.com/anti-trans-grooming-and-social-contagion-claims-explained-a511a93b042f
I skimmed this article and can see the author may have a point about groups of teenage girls transitioning in a clump. It may not be “social contagion “ that causes this, it may be as the author suggests a lifting of stigma and girls with this interest band together.
But who really knows. Is there social science research so robust, so irrefutable in this area that it proves anything? I don’t think so.
I may come back and spend more time with this article because the author seems to mis-characterizes one part of the research she links but I need to spend more time with the links before I conclude for sure.
Ah, how fondly I remember the good old days when pointing out a crying woman in Congress would have been labeled misogynistic and Gloria Steinem would have had a thing or two to say about it. I miss my 2nd wave (or is it 3rd wave?) Feminist icons.
My take: Hartzler's crying was fake, and her "concern" was a grab for airtime. I saw her nephew interviewed, and I'm glad he's gotten beyond a rough start.
And then when I am having shower thoughts...perhaps gender really is morphing in many species due to our polluted environment.
And then when I am having shower thoughts...perhaps gender really is morphing in many species due to our polluted environment.
Wasn’t it Alex Jones who ranted about chemicals in the water turning the damn frogs gay?
ApatheticNoMore
12-10-22, 3:57pm
Bisexuality is probably more natural than heterosexuality, which is much more just a social convention that has been considered until recently the way one should be. The young people especially they are finding themselves. Now that's sexuality not gender, the gender stuff I do find confusing.
iris lilies
12-10-22, 4:22pm
Bisexuality is probably more natural than heterosexuality, which is much more just a social convention that has been considered until recently the way one should be. The young people especially they are finding themselves. Now that's sexuality not gender, the gender stuff I do find confusing.
Both of them are likely on a spectrum.
Wasn’t it Alex Jones who ranted about chemicals in the water turning the damn frogs gay?
A lot of sane people think environmental toxins are affecting amphibians:
https://news.berkeley.edu/2010/03/01/frogs/
Are we truly in a period of peak LGBT hatred compared to twenty or fifty years ago, or are we just magnifying every marginal wingnut through the internet funhouse mirror? Is the average American of 2022 less tolerant of sexual outliers than the average American of 1972?
Violence against the innocent is wrong, but this whole theory of hatred absorbed from the cultural ether also strikes me as wrong. There is no person or organization I trust to determine what expression is too dangerous to allow.
Who said we were at the point of peak LGBTQ hatred?
Correct me if I’m wrong but when I read your post I read ‘LGBTQ people just need to sit down and shut up because things used to be a lot worse.’
Who said we were at the point of peak LGBTQ hatred?
Correct me if I’m wrong but when I read your post I read ‘LGBTQ people just need to sit down and shut up because things used to be a lot worse.’
Not at all. I just think blaming what some people do on what other people say is becoming a reflex response similar to “thoughts and prayers”.
And I think that pretending that words never inspire actions is incredibly naive.
And I think that pretending that words never inspire actions is incredibly naive.
Does that mean that we should start moderating your frequent claims that Republicans and or those against mandatory mask or vaccine requirements want to kill people? Should we take steps now to prevent the site from being accused of harboring and encouraging stochastic terrorism?
ApatheticNoMore
12-12-22, 5:36pm
Does that mean that we should start moderating your frequent claims that Republicans and or those against mandatory mask or vaccine requirements want to kill people? Should we take steps now to prevent the site from being accused of harboring and encouraging stochastic terrorism?
Well there has never been any such terrorism, but sure we should put hypothetical things that have never happened, in the same realm as hate crimes that actually have. Or maybe not.
And I think that pretending that words never inspire actions is incredibly naive.
I think that pretending that any given act of violence is the consequence of words spoken by people you don’t like is incredibly disingenuous.
frugal-one
12-12-22, 9:09pm
I think that pretending that any given act of violence is the consequence of words spoken by people you don’t like is incredibly disingenuous.
In this case, you shouldn’t try thinking.
I think that pretending that any given act of violence is the consequence of words spoken by people you don’t like is incredibly disingenuous.
And I think pretending that the Q shooter, who had posted much stuff online parroting the various right wing talking points about how evil LGBTQ people are just randomly decided to shoot you an LGBTQ nightclub is pretty sad denialism.
Or the dude that showed up at the pizza parlor in DC, gun in hand, to ‘save’ the non-existent trafficked children from the non-existent basement.
JaneV2.0
12-12-22, 10:14pm
Not at all. I just think blaming what some people do on what other people say is becoming a reflex response similar to “thoughts and prayers”.
Charles Manson comes to mind.
Call it “stochastic terrorism”. Lecture me about “words are violence”. You’re just putting a new coat of paint on an idea as old and ignoble as scapegoating.
Call it “stochastic terrorism”. Lecture me about “words are violence”. You’re just putting a new coat of paint on an idea as old and ignoble as scapegoating.
Spoken like someone who isn’t the target of all the Republican hate being spewed these days. As someone who wouldn’t dare to walk hand in hand with my SO in many places in this country I truly hope that no one you love ends up being the unfortunate target of that hate.
What hate is being spewed by Republicans? If we should consider this forum as a cross-section of society, the only hate spewed is by Democrats. Is it different elsewhere?
JaneV2.0
12-13-22, 11:15pm
What hate is being spewed by Republicans? If we should consider this forum as a cross-section of society, the only hate spewed is by Democrats. Is it different elsewhere?
You should get out more. This forum is made up of mostly civilized people. ;)
frugal-one
12-14-22, 5:28am
What hate is being spewed by Republicans? If we should consider this forum as a cross-section of society, the only hate spewed is by Democrats. Is it different elsewhere?
As usual, you have your head in the sand or elsewhere.
Spoken like someone who isn’t the target of all the Republican hate being spewed these days. As someone who wouldn’t dare to walk hand in hand with my SO in many places in this country I truly hope that no one you love ends up being the unfortunate target of that hate.
Well, I have a trans child who’s had it rough from time to time. But I don’t feel that empowers me to claim unfounded connections based on feelings of victimhood.
Well, I have a trans child who’s had it rough from time to time. But I don’t feel that empowers me to claim unfounded connections based on feelings of victimhood.
I hope for your kid’s sake that your political party stops hating on LGBTQ people at some point in his lifetime. Right now that seems doubtful but since my political party did it in my lifetime I suppose that it’s possible.
I hope for your kid’s sake that your political party stops hating on LGBTQ people at some point in his lifetime. Right now that seems doubtful but since my political party did it in my lifetime I suppose that it’s possible.
I’m doing my best to raise him to be strong and comfortable enough in his own self to make virtue signaling and identify politics irrelevant in his life.
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