Social media really can help society.....

[gimmethesimplelife]

Here's some rare good news regarding an American police department, and even one in the Deep South.....and how social media can help provide justice. Apparently last year a police officer in Cobb County, GA, pulled over a Caucasian woman (the officer involved was Caucasian also) and the woman said she was afraid to get her license as she had seen too many videos of cops killing for no reason. (like duh!!!!) So what does the officer say? We only kill blacks....this is what he said and it was recorded on his cam and apparently he was fired today. The cam video was released and created quite a stir on social media....and the officer was fired today.

I have to say for my part I had a very hard time getting through to the Cobb County Police Department when I called as per my rotation on the neighborhood police brutality phone tree....to voice my fear and terror of a police department that would accumulate a pension and carry health insurance but would so hold the lives of an entire race of people so cheap and believe that such was acceptable.....I had a very hard time getting through...took me over half an hour and the lady that answered was terse and apparently sick of and amazed of the volume of phone calls that the lack of respect of human life by her employer would generate. Good lesson for her and good lesson for the Cobb County, Georgia PD. May they respect all races going forward and if such is not possible, earn Academy Awards for keeping their lips zipped and not generating huge lawsuits for their abusive behavior.

Proof positive that social media and aggressive phone targeting CAN yield human rights, even in America (though I know many people who would not believe this due to their life experience).......Rob

Keep the smartphones charged as police brutality is creeping upwards on the social ladder!!!!!

[Alan]

If the benefit Social Media provides to society is to capture snippets of peoples lives and then apply someone else's context in an effort to destroy their lives, I want nothing to do with it.
Rob, I wonder if you could live up to the standard you demand of your favorite villains?

[ToomuchStuff]

Lessons:

Don't be stupid, and don't be surprised there are people who don't understand cynicism as well as delusional people.
Be interesting to record this posters interaction with an off duty transgender LEO this metro has, before, during and after he finds out that the person is an officer.

[dmc]

I guess he should have just dragged the lady out of the car instead of trying to calm her down. To lose his job over a sarcastic remark is way over the top.

[flowerseverywhere]

Unfortunately a lot of potentially excellent police officers will not seek the uniform is hordes of people are recording everything they say or do to try to get them fired, sue them etc. It must be terribly demoralizing to hesitate before doing anything for fear of being recorded and vilified. They are human beings and by design have faults. Beating or shooting innocent people are not faults of course, but I dare you to do a tiny fraction of what they do Day after day.

there is a time and place for everything. I cannot imagine the stress on the job for these brave young men and women. Are there abuses? Yes. But like in every other profession they are few. I know that in my 35 year career as a nurse there are things people could have recorded to put me in a bad light if taken out of context, but when you are on your feet for 8-16 hours barely having time to go to the bathroom or eat sometimes you might say things that aren't the best you could do. I know 99.99% of the time I did and said the right thing. And I worked in Mental health for most of my career, with many people who were thrown away and scorned by society. I know I am not perfect. And neither are the police.

I challenge you you to become a police officer. Get your entire zip code to try to be a police officer.

[sweetana3]

All our lives and property would be worthless without a system of laws and the police to back them up. It is a dangerous and very hard job to do. Every day you see the bad and rarely the good.

Go ahead and blame them for everything they say and do but I bet they will be the first ones called if your car is being stolen, your kid being assaulted or missing, your partner killed or injured during a robbery, etc. Become involved with the Citizen Review process and learn about the profession.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I have to say that in the light of case after case after case of police brutality - killings for the flimsiest of reasons or no reasons whatsoever - that it stuns me that there are people who will actually take the side of the police. Certainly this is your right those who have posted pro police and I won't take that away from you - it's just that I have witnessed police brutality with my own eyes before taking place right in front of me. There is no possible way to unsee this for me and there is no way I will budge or yield on my stance of being terrified of American police - I've seen what they are with my own eyes as I have said. Furthermore, I do believe there are some officers in law enforcement for the right reasons that are not psychos - the reason I don't sing their praises is due to cop culture - a culture in which they subscribe to that covers the rear end of the psychos.

To me the entire US police systems needs an overhaul but for the moment they are good for survivors/heirs of survivors of encounters with psychotic cops getting huge settlements and/or political asylum elsewhere. I don't see them as good for much else, and I have ridden with them a few times when there were kids coming in from the suburbs attacking elderly Hispanic women out and about in the neighborhood, and I have posted of this before. I am still terrified of them - that will never change until the US police change and even if such were to happen, I'd still be very wary as I've seen the type of person this job tends to attract.

My point is that there is an entirely different way of viewing the police, and if you'all had witnessed police brutality before, you might just see this whole issue differently. Not only am I afraid of the police, but I am also afraid of this citizenship in the sense that there are so many citizens who unthinkingly support the police, thereby allowing this behavior to continue, until something happens to them and they learn better. So unnecessary but I do what I can to make others aware of this evil. And as to calling them - as I've said many times before, I would never call the police as you don't know if you will be dealing with a psycho or not - it's just too much risk to take and it's really taking your life in your hands to call the police for anything these days. Calling the police is a luxury for those with better citizenship who live in countries where the police are not militarized - these days are gone in the United States. Not pleasant but true and I'm not one to duck and run from unpleasant reality.

I just hope you'all don't need to actually call the police for anything anytime soon, and I mean this sincerely. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I came back to add something - I will be calling the Cobb County Police Department later today to Thank Them sincerely for firing this trash and keeping this trash from further accumulating a pension after this human rights abuse. Several of the people on my police brutality phone tree think I'm insane for calling to thank the police for behaving in the way that they should - but I see this differently.

I realized at a very young age how cheaply human life is held in America due to America being the only country in which human life is not worth socialized medicine - something I will NEVER be able to forgive or forget - and since the police did the right thing, which does not come naturally to US police may I add - in firing this (fill in the blank with a noun that would be nicer than the one I would use) - thereby showing some basic respect for human life - they deserve a Thank You from me as an activist. This is also something I will not budge on - the need to express appreciation to the police the rare times they actually do something right such as this instance firing the abusive officer in Cobb County, Georgia. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

There's been another instance of police brutality - a nurse roughed up, assualted, and arrested by Salt Lake City, UT police for refusing to draw blood from an unconcious patient as the patient could not give consent. The nurse's supervisor via speakerphone told the police they were making a huge, litigation-begging mistake (much more honesty that the officer involved was worth, in my book) but common sense and the law did not deter this officer. Here's hoping their pensions cease accumulation and that they are off the public payroll as soon as possible with as much media attention - domestic and international - as is possible. I hope in some small way to be a part of this insistence upon human rights against the over the top militarized police of yet another American city. At least for those of you who continue to support the police, there are activists fighting for your rights against the police anyway - something to be grateful for in my book. Rob

[SteveinMN]

My point is that there is an entirely different way of viewing the police, and if you'all had witnessed police brutality before, you might just see this whole issue differently. Not only am I afraid of the police, but I am also afraid of this citizenship in the sense that there are so many citizens who unthinkingly support the police, thereby allowing this behavior to continue, until something happens to them and they learn better. So unnecessary but I do what I can to make others aware of this evil.
I think anyone who has been watching the news over the past few years has witnessed police brutality, even if it was not live and right in front of them. That "virtuality" does not make it less real or have less of an impact on the victims.

As someone with family and friends who are "people of color", I am concerned about the training many LEOs get (or don't get; it's a big deal in St. Paul that they're looking to hire four officers next year with "special" training in dealing with mental illness). All officers should get basic and continuing training in how to deal with people displaying symptoms of mental illness. All officers should get basic and continuing training in how to de-escalate crises safely.

I am concerned that police departments bought materiel, like armored personnel carriers, that is entirely outside of what I see as dealing with the public -- and very disappointed that the current inhabitant of the Oval Office is rescinding the prohibition on selling that gear (probably just because it's another thing his predecessor did). There certainly is room for LEOs to improve their relationships with a changing demographic of people in most areas as they (like all of us) are products of our histories.

That said, LEOs have an incredibly difficult job. They're the first to show up and deal with bloody mangled dying bodies in car wrecks and shootings. They're the first to show up when others are threatened by someone who perceives they have a score to settle. They have to decide in the space of seconds what has happened and what might happen in tense situations and bad environments (low light, explosions, etc.) -- and then act, knowing that they are marked because of their uniform and because they often are the aggressors. They do not always get it right. Sometimes that's a bad decision. Sometimes that's bad training. Sometimes that's a decision by someone who shouldn't be a LEO. I wouldn't want that job. I'm glad people do.

Being afraid to call the police when something happens to you or people you care about is like choosing to never fly because sometimes airplanes crash. The deviations from thousands of takeoffs and landings each day get far more press than the ones that go smoothly. LEOs have millions of interactions with people every day. Yes, some of them end regrettably, for lots of reasons. What we can do is learn from each incident. It also would be nice if we held trials of LEOs rather than dismiss the charges soon afterward; I think that creates a bad taste in some mouths. But better environments may preclude trials and such.

If the goal is long-term change of how LEOs operate in America (not just scaremongering), I think the answer is in working to make sure budget cuts don't result in cops working too many hours to think straight; to ensure that LEOs are trained from the very beginning and continually in how to deal with people in safe, effective ways that do not rely on disabling the alleged perpetrator; in getting LEOs out of assault vehicles and back onto streets where they meet with the people they've been hired to serve.

Or ... moving.

[Lainey]

I agree with SteveinMN about a) training and b) budgeting to prevent excessive overtime and c) cut back on the militarization of municipal police.

I think another solution is to provide a paid sabbatical to police officers and correctional officers.

I agree these are high stress careers, and burnout would be a big issue. I believe companies like Intel still provide paid sabbaticals every 7 years to their employees. I would be in favor of paying a bit more in taxes if this could be implemented.

[LDAHL]

What, psychopaths, drug dealers and double-parkers weren't enough? Now they've got to contend with obsessives with smartphones and pension envy? I'm amazed more cops don't lose it.

God bless those people. They may be imperfect, but they risk their safety for all of us on a daily basis.

[bae]

I just hope you'all don't need to actually call the police for anything anytime soon, and I mean this sincerely. Rob

I interact with the police face-to-face probably 4-5 times a week.

Late at night, when I arrive to help with a drug overdose. Or in the middle of the day, when doing CPR and a local officer responds to the all-hands page and joins the high-performance CPR team and saves a life. Or out on the stormy sea, doing a marine search and rescue using the Sheriff's boat and crew. Or on the side of the road cutting people out of crashed vehicles, while the police control the scene and makes it safe to work. Or staging to be ready to move in once they've dealt with calming down a suicidal person with a weapon, at great risk to their own lives. Or at drill for mass casualty incidents, and active shooter training where we learn to go in right next to the law enforcement people. And so on.

I called a police officer just now - we're going out fishing this afternoon.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Thank Goodness for social media in the case of the nurse who was illegally and unconstitutionally assaulted by an officer in Salt Lake City, UT. They are getting so many calls that their recording says not to expect individualized call backs.....I have a feeling they are a bit overwhelmed with the amount of public response to their sheer evil they once would have gotten away with. Thankfully those days are over and more and more people are standing up to officers such as the ones in question - ruining pension accumulations and shortening careers in the name of protecting human life and human dignity.

I just hope this nurse refuses any gag order and she doesn't settle for a penny less than $100 million. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I agree with SteveinMN about a) training and b) budgeting to prevent excessive overtime and c) cut back on the militarization of municipal police.

I think another solution is to provide a paid sabbatical to police officers and correctional officers.

I agree these are high stress careers, and burnout would be a big issue. I believe companies like Intel still provide paid sabbaticals every 7 years to their employees. I would be in favor of paying a bit more in taxes if this could be implemented.Lainey, I'll agree with a, b, and c.....especially C (big time!!!!!) and then A (with proof of having been trained for various situations so as to lessen any chance of disputing settlements for officer misconduct (i.e., that's never come up, I was afraid, I didn't know....option A needs to squelch all of that legally). But I agree that there are things that need to be done outside of the courtroom to address these issues that only seem to be festering and getting worse each passing year. Rob

[bae]

Thank Goodness for social media in the case of the nurse who was illegally and unconstitutionally assaulted by an officer in Salt Lake City, UT.

More than just social media in this case, it's come across all my paramedicine and fire feeds. Body cam, cell phone cam, hospital security cams. This particular police officer clearly needs to reconsider his career choice.

[bae]

I just hope this nurse refuses any gag order and she doesn't settle for a penny less than $100 million. Rob

What damages did she suffer that would warrant $100 million?

And what does a "gag order" have to do with anything? The story is out, with a dozen different camera angles.

[gimmethesimplelife]

More than just social media in this case, it's come across all my paramedicine and fire feeds. Body cam, cell phone cam, hospital security cams. This particular police officer clearly needs to reconsider his career choice.Bae, I know we have had our issues over the years....but right here and now I just want to say: Thank You. Thank You from the bottom of my heart for not auto-siding with the police and for getting this. Thank You by proxy from everyone in the 85006, too.....just Thank You. You have given me some hope here.......Rob

[bae]

Bae, I know we have had our issues over the years....but right here and now I just want to say: Thank You. Thank You from the bottom of my heart for not auto-siding with the police and for getting this.

I've never auto-sided with the police. I've not auto-sided against them either.

[gimmethesimplelife]

What damages did she suffer that would warrant $100 million?

And what does a "gag order" have to do with anything? The story is out, with a dozen different camera angles.I meant a gag order forbidding her to speak as to the amount of the eventual settlement. Damages? To be assaulted by a police officer like that should warrant $250 million so as to have insurance companies clamp down on police departments everywhere and force them to knuckle under to the rule of the law. Given this nation's $20 TRILLION in debt here I am being humane and advocating a bargain basement settlement of $100 million, of course understanding that the final settlement will likely be for much less. Rob

[dmc]

I need a body cam. A Boston police officer took $10 from me yesterday. I won the front nine, but he won the back, total and I pressed on 17 and lost that also.

maybe I can get his pension revoked.

[bae]

To be assaulted by a police officer like that should warrant $250 million so as to have insurance companies clamp down on police departments everywhere and force them to knuckle under to the rule of the law.

That's not how the world works. There's generally a 10:1 limit to punitive damages over the real compensatory damages awarded. Generally any greater amount has been found to violate due process.

I don't see $1 million of damages to the nurse during the arrest process.

[dmc]

Thank Goodness for social media in the case of the nurse who was illegally and unconstitutionally assaulted by an officer in Salt Lake City, UT. They are getting so many calls that their recording says not to expect individualized call backs.....I have a feeling they are a bit overwhelmed with the amount of public response to their sheer evil they once would have gotten away with. Thankfully those days are over and more and more people are standing up to officers such as the ones in question - ruining pension accumulations and shortening careers in the name of protecting human life and human dignity.

I just hope this nurse refuses any gag order and she doesn't settle for a penny less than $100 million. Rob

why don't you make it a billion?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I've never auto-sided with the police. I've not auto-sided against them either.Bae, wonderful news! It has come to the attention of the 85006 police brutality phone tree leaders that: The officer in question in Salt Lake City, UT was fired. Phew! I'm so so so grateful! This of course will have no bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the nurse's lawsuit BUT at least this POS has been stripped of his badge, his officer powers, and will not be accruing further pension monies. It's not over yet but it's a good start! Gotta say I'm impressed too with the speed of which this officer was given the heave-ho. We need to see more of this going forward if the public is to ever trust the police again, which I doubt can realistically happen in my lifetime (maybe a few generations down the road?) Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

why don't you make it a billion?Please don't minimize the illegal and inexcusable actions of this officer in this way. We both know a billion dollars is asking for too much.......the point is a whopper of a settlement to put fear into the hearts of police chiefs nationwide and make them realize that they are not above the law and neither are the officers that report to them. That's the whole point of a mega settlement.....to strike fear into the hearts of police chiefs (and insurance companies, too) and thereby save human life from psychotic officers. It's really quite humane and practical and pretty much common sense given what American police have sunk to. Rob

[bae]

Bae, wonderful news! It has come to the attention of the 85006 police brutality phone tree leaders that: The officer in question in Salt Lake City, UT was fired. Phew! I'm so so so grateful! This of course will have no bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the nurse's lawsuit

I suspect it will indeed have a bearing on whatever lawsuit she chooses to pursue. Where did you go to law school?


BUT at least this POS

He's a flawed human being, not a "piece of shit". He clearly has anger management issues, was frustrated and having a bad day, and lost it. He likely also had inadequate training and supervision.


Gotta say I'm impressed too with the speed of which this officer was given the heave-ho.

Which, given the general process needed and the union involvement, says quite a bit. And will likely say quite a bit when it comes to the nurse pursuing her case.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I suspect it will indeed have a bearing on whatever lawsuit she chooses to pursue. Where did you go to law school?



He's a flawed human being, not a "piece of shit". He clearly has anger management issues, was frustrated and having a bad day, and lost it. He likely also had inadequate training and supervision.



Which, given the general process needed and the union involvement, says quite a bit. And will likely say quite a bit when it comes to the nurse pursuing her case.Backing up.....it's not 100% sure that this officer was fired. There seem to be conflicting reports surfacing out there and I personally, and think you would agree Bae, think it's best to wait for a formal statement from the Salt Lake City PD itself.....so far the Salt Lake City PD has not verified termination of this officer. Rob

[dmc]

Please don't minimize the illegal and inexcusable actions of this officer in this way. We both know a billion dollars is asking for too much.......the point is a whopper of a settlement to put fear into the hearts of police chiefs nationwide and make them realize that they are not above the law and neither are the officers that report to them. That's the whole point of a mega settlement.....to strike fear into the hearts of police chiefs (and insurance companies, too) and thereby save human life from psychotic officers. It's really quite humane and practical and pretty much common sense given what American police have sunk to. Rob

And a 100 million is resonable? One is just as silly as he other.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I suspect it will indeed have a bearing on whatever lawsuit she chooses to pursue. Where did you go to law school?



He's a flawed human being, not a "piece of shit". He clearly has anger management issues, was frustrated and having a bad day, and lost it. He likely also had inadequate training and supervision.



Which, given the general process needed and the union involvement, says quite a bit. And will likely say quite a bit when it comes to the nurse pursuing her case.I'll buy that this is a flawed human being we are talking about here but my question is then this: Why are such people not screened out better during the hiring process given the nature of the situations they will encounter and the nature of the decisions they will have to make while in uniform? Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Something I understand about the nurse involved - apparently she's a two time Olympian? Ay carumba, talk about a network she must have! This was an unwise choice of victim for this police officer......putting it mildly. I hope police officers NATIONWIDE rethink such behaviors going forward and if they honestly can't knuckle under and work within the confines of the law, voluntarily move on instead of placing human life and human rights and human dignity at risk.

Maybe we need thrice-annual mental health screening (perhaps this is not often enough though?) for ALL police officers going forward so as to better protect the public from out of control officers on a rampage? Can anyone come up with something better if this does not suit? Rob

[bae]

Why are such people not screened out better during the hiring process ...?

My understanding is that most departments screen during hiring.

But screening isn't perfect, and the mental health profession doesn't yet have an exact test for this sort of thing.

As a personal observation, most of the officers I know who have "gone bad" didn't start out that way - the stress of the job over time did them in.

And I also understand that many departments do ongoing screening, and provide counseling for stress-related issues, but when you look at the divorce rate, suicide rate, substance abuse rate for law enforcement officers, clearly what we do now isn't near perfect.

This is the problem when we have human beings in the equation.

[JaneV2.0]

Drew Peterson always comes to mind when I think about psych screening for police officers...
Tacoma police chief David Brame apparently flunked his psych evaluation but was appointed anyway. Then he killed his estranged wife in front of their children.
There is always a percentage of sociopaths who manage to get by the safeguards.

[bae]

There is always a percentage of sociopaths who manage to get by the safeguards.

I think the really nasty ones are unfortunately also very good at acting "normal" as a cover.

[Alan]

Backing up.....it's not 100% sure that this officer was fired. There seem to be conflicting reports surfacing out there and I personally, and think you would agree Bae, think it's best to wait for a formal statement from the Salt Lake City PD itself.....so far the Salt Lake City PD has not verified termination of this officer. RobBut don't you think it's a little late to mention this now? In this version of social media, you've already authoritatively told us several times that he was fired. What about those people who only read your first half dozen posts on the subject and then walked away from the thread now that you've presented incorrect information over and over? You've used your voice to mislead.

Social media does change society, but it's rarely helpful.

[gimmethesimplelife]

But don't you think it's a little late to mention this now? In this version of social media, you've already authoritatively told us several times that he was fired. What about those people who only read your first half dozen posts on the subject and then walked away from the thread now that you've presented incorrect information over and over? You've used your voice to mislead.

Social media does change society, but it's rarely helpful.I could not disagree more. Social media to some degree has flattened the playing field for the lower classes at least in the sense of facing injustice from the police. Police injustice can be downloaded to social media and the Internet at speeds so fast how can a human being truly comprehend them? Not only that but some basic home truths about the United States are worldwide knowledge now thanks to social media, and more and more people are avoiding the United States/taking their business and tourism currency elsewhere. Not at epic levels yet but such is increasing and every story such as this insane injustice in Salt Lake City add to the exodus of currency to countries other than the United States. Rob

[Alan]

I could not disagree more. Social media to some degree has flattened the playing field for the lower classes at least in the sense of facing injustice from the police. Police injustice can be downloaded to social media and the Internet at speeds so fast how can a human being truly comprehend them? Not only that but some basic home truths about the United States are worldwide knowledge now thanks to social media, and more and more people are avoiding the United States/taking their business and tourism currency elsewhere. Not at epic levels yet but such is increasing and every story such as this insane injustice in Salt Lake City add to the exodus of currency to countries other than the United States. RobI think you're confusing opinion and bias for truth.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I think you're confusing opinion and bias for truth.? Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

The latest I have been able to find is from what I consider a reliable source - the AP - who claims a prosecutor in Salt Lake City wants to open a criminal investigation/probe into the officer's actions regarding the arrest of the two time Olympian nurse......crossing fingers that the career is ruined and that the pension is about to stop accruing. Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

The latest I have been able to find is from what I consider a reliable source - the AP - who claims a prosecutor in Salt Lake City wants to open a criminal investigation/probe into the officer's actions regarding the arrest of the two time Olympian nurse......crossing fingers that the career is ruined and that the pension is about to stop accruing. Rob

why oh why do you stay in this country. Do you not have a Mexican spouse?

[bae]

http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/every-cop-involved-in-the-arrest-of-this

[gimmethesimplelife]

why oh why do you stay in this country. Do you not have a Mexican spouse?My take, as far as the issue of police brutality in regards to this nurse in Salt Lake City goes? Whichever country is renting me for the moment is irrelevant - this incident was flat out wrong regardless. This one, to me anyway, goes beyond whichever country at the moment has my presence - much like I find the situation in Houston at the moment to be beyond politics and I don't care from which side of the aisle help comes from - I just care that help arrives in Houston for the many victims of Harvey. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/every-cop-involved-in-the-arrest-of-thisThanks for posting this, Bae. I agree with the article, too. Rob

[bae]

why oh why do you stay in this country. Do you not have a Mexican spouse?

Is there police brutality in Mexico?

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Mexico-Rights-Groups-Slam-Police-Brutality-One-Year-After-Oaxaca-Massacre-20170618-0016.html

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/americas/mexico/report-mexico/

[gimmethesimplelife]

Is there police brutality in Mexico?

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Mexico-Rights-Groups-Slam-Police-Brutality-One-Year-After-Oaxaca-Massacre-20170618-0016.html

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/americas/mexico/report-mexico/The difference? Mexico does not hypcritically portray itself as a model for the rest of the world to follow, or as a beacon of freedom and opportunity. These are among the reasons that police brutality in the US is so unacceptable and soul crushingly morally repellent. Rob

[bae]

Interesting reasoning there. Probably gives solace to those who are "disappeared" or tortured.

[iris lilies]

In the time since Rob started this thread, at leasr two police officers in my city were shot up bt gang bangers, I say " at least" two because it is hard to keep up. Also, the bangers' bulkets went through a house nearby, critically injuring a young woman who was simply sitting in her iwn house.

meanwhile, our beloved neighborhood cop has put in for retirement and I am secretly happy that he is out of the fray.we will miss him tremendously, but it is best for him.

[frugal-one]

I came back to add something - I will be calling the Cobb County Police Department later today to Thank Them sincerely for firing this trash and keeping this trash from further accumulating a pension after this human rights abuse. Several of the people on my police brutality phone tree think I'm insane for calling to thank the police for behaving in the way that they should - but I see this differently.

I realized at a very young age how cheaply human life is held in America due to America being the only country in which human life is not worth socialized medicine - something I will NEVER be able to forgive or forget - and since the police did the right thing, which does not come naturally to US police may I add - in firing this (fill in the blank with a noun that would be nicer than the one I would use) - thereby showing some basic respect for human life - they deserve a Thank You from me as an activist. This is also something I will not budge on - the need to express appreciation to the police the rare times they actually do something right such as this instance firing the abusive officer in Cobb County, Georgia. Rob

You are calling this department and wasting their time (and yours). The person answering the phone probably gives two ***** what you think!

[dmc]

Interesting reasoning there. Probably gives solace to those who are "disappeared" or tortured.

mexico gives him cheaper dental work so it's ok.

[gimmethesimplelife]

You are calling this department and wasting their time (and yours). The person answering the phone probably gives two ***** what you think!The take from the 85006 on this one is that they need to get a grasp of the volume of hatred, fear, terror, disgust, and non-compliance going forward that their despicable actions generate. The phone calls of course will change nothing in and of themselves.....it's just a tool for them to get a sense of the intense level of public hatred and disgust that they have earned. And in this particular case I see it as positive reinforcement as in the case of Cobb County, Georgia, they did something right. Perhaps the next officer will realize that likely he or she is being recorded and that whoever they are victimizing/going off on/displaying the truth about American police to will only be too happy to go to the media with their video/footage/recordings.....to not go to the media with such at this point is to be just as guilty as the police are...who would want to live with that at this point? Rob

[goldensmom]

Back to the title of the thread…..before there was social media, I did not know there were so many people who have mean, crude, nasty, evil, etc. thoughts. The words that proceed form the mouth are a mirror of the heart. Social media has proven to me that the mouth in many cases is indeed an ‘open sepulcher full of cursing and bitterness’. I find that it is often more hurtful than helpful.

[SteveinMN]

The take from the 85006 on this one is that they need to get a grasp of the volume of hatred, fear, terror, disgust, and non-compliance going forward that their despicable actions generate. The phone calls of course will change nothing in and of themselves.....it's just a tool for them to get a sense of the intense level of public hatred and disgust that they have earned.

Rob, I'm a man of science. I like to see confirmations of ideas. That's how you know what's true and what's not.

Do you have any statistics that support your implication that you speak for all of "the 85006"? Do you and your colleagues know if the clerks receiving your tree's phone calls actually pass on more than a scribbled number of how many of you called that day? Or if are they including on their message pads terms you're using here, like "hatred", "disgust", and "despicable"?


For a membe of a minority group which frequently is maligned broadly and prejudicially, you paint with a broad brush. If you went to work each morning not being sure when you'd come home -- or if you'd come home; if you knew your day could include walking up to a vehicle with heavily-tinted windows but not knowing if the person behind that window had one of those weapons that's all the rage these days; if you had to be the man or woman whose job included dealing with someone strung out on angel dust or a baby dying in front of you after an accident, well, maybe there would be a different perspective on why officers sometimes act against type, revert to more primal behaviors, and sometimes make poor decisions.

We should expect a lot from our LEOs. We give them a lot of power. But LEOs are human. And, like waiters, gays, or people who live in the American Southwest, we should realize that some bad apples don't spoil the entire bushel.

Should LEOs be screened in hiring to the best of our abilities? Of course. Should LEOs be supported by training and simulation and information and enough time away from the job to stay alert and mentally fit? Certainly. Should officers who display poor judgment be identified and the transgressions evaluated and addressed -- and some of them be relieved of their badge and gun? Without question.

Should there be rules that require the presence and use of body cameras on LEOs? As long as there's enough he-said-she-said to warrant it, yes. Should there be a demilitarization of police forces? I think, as a citizen, it's easier to form some sort of bond with someone when there isn't an armored personnel carrier between the two individuals.

But will haranguing some desk sargeants daily over the phone change all that? Not at all. Will displaying video on social media accomplish that? Look at the cr@p that was posted on social media during the last Presidential election and ask what effects it had on voters. For every nurse in Salt Lake City, there's a pizzeria in Washington that's fronting illegal activity (not). Nothing on social media should be accepted at face value when people's lives are at stake.


Perhaps the next officer will realize that likely he or she is being recorded and that whoever they are victimizing/going off on/displaying the truth about American police to will only be too happy to go to the media with their video/footage/recordings
Anyone in modern American society knows there are cameras everywhere. Smartphone cameras, surveillance cameras, body cameras,... There is nothing you can do in public that cannot be reported on, whether it's picking your nose in your car, shoplifting, planting evidence for a fake drug bust, or firing at someone you think is reaching for a gun.

In the quickly-developing highly-charged situations in which LEOs find themselves, no officer who thinks (s)he sees a gun in the hands of a suspect is going to spend one millisecond wondering if a camera somewhere will vindicate what (s)he does next. Similarly, I'm sure that officer in Salt Lake City didn't spend a single brain cycle thinking, "Oh, better rein it in. If I go off on this nurse, it's gonna cost the city/county/state a bundle."

Look, I'm not excusing whatever officers do. But to cast every LEO in the U.S. as an agent of fear and terror? I'm not sure what you and your colleagues are trying to accomplish. But I think it's misguided and serving more as a release of your frustration than a sponsor to actual reform. And I think it unfairly stigmatizes tens of thousands of people in a way that I think you yourself would find inaccurate and ineffective -- and repulsive.

[flowerseverywhere]

The take from the 85006 on this one is that they need to get a grasp of the volume of hatred, fear, terror, disgust, and non-compliance going forward that their despicable actions generate. The phone calls of course will change nothing in and of themselves.....it's just a tool for them to get a sense of the intense level of public hatred and disgust that they have earned. And in this particular case I see it as positive reinforcement as in the case of Cobb County, Georgia, they did something right. Perhaps the next officer will realize that likely he or she is being recorded and that whoever they are victimizing/going off on/displaying the truth about American police to will only be too happy to go to the media with their video/footage/recordings.....to not go to the media with such at this point is to be just as guilty as the police are...who would want to live with that at this point? Rob

nothing you are doing will change anything. You and your neighbors should be trying to get as many people as you can to train and qualify to be police officers. I am not kidding here. Turn things around from being troublemakers to problem solvers

[gimmethesimplelife]

nothing you are doing will change anything. You and your neighbors should be trying to get as many people as you can to train and qualify to be police officers. I am not kidding here. Turn things around from being troublemakers to problem solversFlowerseverywhere, I am not entirely against your post.....though I don't personally believe it would help matters much if some neighborhood folks got into the police academy, passed, and became officers. The reason why I feel this is due to cop culture, which I perceive to be one of the greatest problems with the police in general. A culture that allows officer abuse of the general public and one in which officers will cover for each other as they break the law. This has been going on for years - all that is different now is the proliferation of video and the general willingness of the public to stand up against this evil for top dollar and to download this evil to the Internet so that the world learns some home truths about America. Why do you think the police hate video so much? It's because video often shows them for exactly what they are!

Getting back to your post, though, before I get too sidetracked - getting a few good men and women from the 85006 - or any other challenged zip code - is not going to help matters. What we really need is an overhaul of the police and more powers against them - such concepts as instant termination, busting up their unions (and I happen to be a big believer in unions but NOT IN THIS CASE!!!!!) and instant pension loss polices with pension payments going towards victims within a period of less than two weeks.....real change and real human rights are what is needed. What we have now is unsustainable in the sense that more and more people are waking up to what the police are truly all about and what I have known about them for years. One thing that makes me proud to live in the 85006 about is that if a cop car arrives in this area, people pretty much automatically suspect the police of doing wrong and film without any questions being asked to protect themselves from what the police truly are. This is how much trust officers enjoy in my neighborhood - and I can tell you that the police in Phoenix, though no angels, are not as bad as cops in LA or Albuquerque or Seattle....there have been fewer lawsuits per capita against the Phoenix Police than against the police in other large US cities. Still, the trust does not exist and in the current format of law enforcement, trust is absolutely impossible. Just not going to happen.

Going back to your post - we need to change cop culture somehow, and at least where I live we teach folks to film and download as an eventual vehicle towards change. Parents in my zip code are teaching their young kids to distrust the police and to film them too, and (usually) the police know better than to hassle young kids filming them as the backlash towards any issues the police create with young kids is not something they can realistically recover from and the lawsuit settlements will be even higher if children are involved, plus the hatred of the general public towards them will only increase. But at least here in the 85006 almost all of us are united in a firm anti-police stance and the police know this going into this neighborhood - that they are at risk here. Not of death or injury or assault - but of litigation and eventual job loss and of people's distrust and non-violent refusal to cooperate. You can't treat lower income people the way American police have and not expect them to retaliate in some way - and current technology allows lower income folks to retaliate in non-violent ways, plus allows lower income people to display to the world the truth of America. I'd be afraid to be a cop these days, personally, because the era of their getting away with anything with no questions asked is about over. Good riddance. Rob

[LDAHL]

One thing social media seems to be good at is confirming biases. You can quickly scour a huge country for anecdotes and multi-level hearsay that gives you the brittle illusion of having been right all along. No school of thought, no matter how tiny or ludicrous, will lack for fellow believers if you can quickly connect all the dark corners of a diverse culture. You can easily find a "community" of people who will agree with you that jihad is God's will, that the white race is embattled on all sides by its enemies or that the police are hunting people for sport. Flooding the digital world with nonsense and lies has become a profession.

The best defense is critical thinking; but if we reach the point where everyone is entitled to his own reality, the daft will inherit the world.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Some good news! I just read online that the infamous Salt Lake City police officer may face criminal charges for his behavior. I'm so hoping he does as when he's let off and faces no consequences for his behavior, just imagine how many more Americans will wake up and see the police and the system for what it truly is, and just imagine how much more resistance everyday people will put up against the police as this case has become one of national disgust, terror and fear.....to let this officer off facing no consequences will truly show so many people, and the world beyond US borders, what America is truly all about. I can't wait! This is a chance for a public outcry from what's left of the middle class and those above to maybe make some kind of change happen, and will definitely assist in more and more people deeply distrusting the system and this country in general.

I bet this one isolated officer had no real idea that he could serve as an ignition device to a powder keg! He must be beyond amazed! With any luck, as I said, this officer will be let off facing no consequences....this would truly be the best outcome as it is an outcome that would provoke fury from quarters that have not expressed much fury to date......let's hope for the best, thinking of course always for the best long term outcome. Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

Flowerseverywhere, I am not entirely against your post.....though I don't personally believe it would help matters much if some neighborhood folks got into the police academy, passed, and became officers. The reason why I feel this is due to cop culture, which I perceive to be one of the greatest problems with the police in general. A culture that allows officer abuse of the general public and one in which officers will cover for each other as they break the law.

One thing that makes me proud to live in the 85006 about is that if a cop car arrives in this area, people pretty much automatically suspect the police of doing wrong and film without any questions being asked to protect themselves from what the police truly are.

Rob

i edited to respond to two of your statements

on the first, why would folks from your neighborhood get sucked into the police culture? It makes no sense to me. why would someone change suddenly from an innocent victim to an evil abuser? Would they not expose wrongdoing instead of joining in?

On on the second, why is your neighborhoods perception that a police officer is automatically guilty of wrongdoing any different from Arpaio's perception of racial Profiling? Maybe Arpaio's experience is based on his historical dealings. Maybe once he has seen one too many illegal criminal he will never trust any Hispanic and automatically presume they are a criminal? He can't unsee what he has seen either.

[SteveinMN]

On on the second, why is your neighborhoods perception that a police officer is automatically guilty of wrongdoing any different from Arpaio's perception of racial Profiling?
flowers, on reading the quote in Rob's post which you're referring to, I wondered the same thing.

Change one word in the quote and...

we need to change Muslim culture somehow, and at least where I live we teach folks to film and download as an eventual vehicle towards change. Parents in my zip code are teaching their young kids to distrust Muslims and to film them too, and (usually) Muslims know better than to hassle young kids filming them as the backlash towards any issues Muslims create with young kids is not something they can realistically recover from and the lawsuit settlements will be even higher if children are involved, plus the hatred of the general public towards them will only increase. But at least here in the 85006 almost all of us are united in a firm anti-Muslim stance and the Muslims know this going into this neighborhood - that they are at risk here.

I'm not at all trying to be incendiary. The changed word could be "Muslim"; it could be "Latinx"; it could be "women"; it could be "LBGTQ"; it could be "Tesla drivers".

Whatever the word, the quote employs a level of prejudgement fully on par with bigoted (and convicted) Joe Arpaio. And I don't believe the tactic does a d--n thing to bridge the perceived gap between "sides" (did it work for Arpaio and the force he supervised?). If that's the only way Rob and his compatriots think "us versus them" gets fixed, I wish them luck.

[bae]

Perhaps of interest:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shonin/shonin?ref=83yikt

[gimmethesimplelife]

flowers, on reading the quote in Rob's post which you're referring to, I wondered the same thing.

Change one word in the quote and...


I'm not at all trying to be incendiary. The changed word could be "Muslim"; it could be "Latinx"; it could be "women"; it could be "LBGTQ"; it could be "Tesla drivers".

Whatever the word, the quote employs a level of prejudgement fully on par with bigoted (and convicted) Joe Arpaio. And I don't believe the tactic does a d--n thing to bridge the perceived gap between "sides" (did it work for Arpaio and the force he supervised?). If that's the only way Rob and his compatriots think "us versus them" gets fixed, I wish them luck.Hi SteveinMN!

I've been thinking about your post here for part of this afternoon and two things come to mind for me. The first is that I am a little surprised you posted this in the sense that you list your location as St. Paul, MN - in the midst of the Twin Cities Metro Area. I don't understand why but Minneapolis/St. Paul has a great quality of life BUT for the past few years has had, and I'm sure you are aware of this, more than it's share of police officers engaging in less than commendable actions and there have been killings - the latest high profile case was the 40 year old Australian national killed by an Officer Noor of the Minneapolis PD.....I would imagine (?) that Twin Cities folks might be more in the mood to seriously question their police departments. I for myself engaged in long distance activism against the Edina, MN police department not too long ago for their harrassment of an African American man committing no crime other than walking down a street in an upscale white suburb and I actually was able to get ahold of a city council member and chew them out for allowing such to take place. At any rate, not living in your area (to be fair) I'm wondering what the climate is like there as to distrust of the police overall? The Twin Cities the past few years have been near the forefront of cases as to why it's wisest not to trust the police, KWIM?

That all said, about the paragraph above replacing the word "Muslim" for police - THE BIG GLARING PROBLEM WITH THIS (capitalized not out of disrespect but to call attention to my point and I do tend to be long-winded, no?) is that the police (let's go back to this word again, please) are supposed to be public employees doing some good and not causing innocent citizens fear and terror. They are not supposed to kill us for flimsy reasons or no reasons at all - or am I missing something - did I sleep in late one day and not get a memo (no sarcasm intended here, I know this sounds a bit sarcastic and you have always been decent to me Steve so I don't mean it this way) - would you not agree that there has been a proliferation of cases of police shootings of a highly questionable nature the past few years, in the Twin Cities and otherwise? Furthermore, the police often suffer no consequences for killing for flimsy reasons or no reasons whatsoever, which to me at least completely negates both your point and the original point of TooMuchStuff. I don't see your points as equal to my point here in the slightest - not that you both can't get points across and not that you both are not articulate people - for me it's the acceptance you both display of the police killing people for flimsy or non-existent reasons. This fact elevates the issues with the police to an entirely different plane. And of course makes it impossible to trust them. At any rate, SteveinMN, please stay safe from your police! I would be afraid to set foot in the Twin Cities now until such a date as changes are made to police departments there and I don't mean this as an insult in any way - I would seriously have some concern for my physical safety and general well being given the recent issues with Twin Cities police in more than one Twin Cities Metro Area municipality.

I hope I've made myself clear? None of this was meant to bash you or the Twin Cities, I hope you understand that. It's too bad I am afraid to set foot there - I've always wanted to see the outside of the house in Kenwood that was used for outside shots during the theme song of the Mary Tyler Moore Show years ago, and I've always wanted to see the Cherry With Spoon Sculpture at the Walker Museum of Art. Afraid to at the moment even if I could afford to do so. Rob

PS I've always wanted to visit Minnehaha (sp?) Falls, too, and also see the statue of Mary Tyler Moore downtown on Nicolett (sp?) I think it is? Never been to Minneapolis other than the airport, btw, I only know of these places from dating a guy from Minneapolis some time ago.

[bae]

I just got back from a medical/rescue call to a home about a 3 minute walk from my front door.

I arrived first. The next person through the door was our new Sheriff's deputy, who had been driving nearby when he heard the traffic on our fire/medical/rescue radio frequency. He doesn't have to listen to that channel, but like a good neighbor, he does. He also had proper gloves and such to assist safely.

Together he and I solved the problem before the ambulance and medic managed to arrive on scene.

I'd not met him before, but I was sure glad to see his face - he helped the patient avoid considerable pain and perhaps lasting damage.

I'm glad I talked to him, instead of whipping out a cell phone and calling my lawyer.

[Teacher Terry]

Minneapolis is a great town. I went to grad school about 2 hours from there in 1992. We loved to go there for the weekend. They have been in the news a lot lately. When I am somewhere that I think the police force is less then stellar is that I don't interact with them first and if they say Hi or smile I do the same and keep moving. I am not afraid to go somewhere because of that. In some big cities there are many neighborhoods I would not step foot in and I feel sorry for the police that have to patrol there. So I guess the question is did the police become more brutal or are we aware of it now because of phones, social media, etc? No doubt our whole society is more violent which is spilling over into it being more dangerous to be a cop. A very good friend of mine died 15 years ago really before all this stuff was happening a lot. He was a hard working law abiding citizen and a really good person but he hated cops. He thought they were all on a ego trip and loved having authority over people. The first time I heard him say that I was shocked. We were all young then, working, raising our kids with good values and I could not believe he felt that way. This whole discussion made me think about him again.

[Teacher Terry]

Bae, it appears that you are in a rural area which is very different from a major city. You can't really compare the 2.

[bae]

Bae, it appears that you are in a rural area which is very different from a major city. You can't really compare the 2.

True. Our officers here usually operate solo, and backup, if there is any available, is 30-45 minutes away. They have a large area to patrol. And their radio and cell phone coverage is spotty at best, so they are often out of communications with dispatch.

I also spend quite a bit of time interacting with the Seattle-area police, as I am a member of the Seattle Police Athletic Association and use the firearms training facilities there a fair bit. The police and other agencies there have been quite nice and friendly, even though I have a loaded gun in my hand. It's a biased sample though, as I suspect that the officers who show up to train are the "good ones".

[flowerseverywhere]

Hi SteveinMN!

I've been thinking about your post here for part of this afternoon and two things come to mind for me. The first is that I am a little surprised you posted this in the sense that you list your location as St. Paul, MN - in the midst of the Twin Cities Metro Area. I don't understand why but Minneapolis/St. Paul has a great quality of life BUT for the past few years has had, and I'm sure you are aware of this, more than it's share of police officers engaging in less than commendable actions and there have been killings - the latest high profile case was the 40 year old Australian national killed by an Officer Noor of the Minneapolis PD.....I would imagine (?) that Twin Cities folks might be more in the mood to seriously question their police departments. I for myself engaged in long distance activism against the Edina, MN police department not too long ago for their harrassment of an African American man committing no crime other than walking down a street in an upscale white suburb and I actually was able to get ahold of a city council member and chew them out for allowing such to take place. At any rate, not living in your area (to be fair) I'm wondering what the climate is like there as to distrust of the police overall? The Twin Cities the past few years have been near the forefront of cases as to why it's wisest not to trust the police, KWIM?

That all said, about the paragraph above replacing the word "Muslim" for police - THE BIG GLARING PROBLEM WITH THIS (capitalized not out of disrespect but to call attention to my point and I do tend to be long-winded, no?) is that the police (let's go back to this word again, please) are supposed to be public employees doing some good and not causing innocent citizens fear and terror. They are not supposed to kill us for flimsy reasons or no reasons at all - or am I missing something - did I sleep in late one day and not get a memo (no sarcasm intended here, I know this sounds a bit sarcastic and you have always been decent to me Steve so I don't mean it this way) - would you not agree that there has been a proliferation of cases of police shootings of a highly questionable nature the past few years, in the Twin Cities and otherwise? Furthermore, the police often suffer no consequences for killing for flimsy reasons or no reasons whatsoever, which to me at least completely negates both your point and the original point of TooMuchStuff. I don't see your points as equal to my point here in the slightest - not that you both can't get points across and not that you both are not articulate people - for me it's the acceptance you both display of the police killing people for flimsy or non-existent reasons. This fact elevates the issues with the police to an entirely different plane. And of course makes it impossible to trust them. At any rate, SteveinMN, please stay safe from your police! I would be afraid to set foot in the Twin Cities now until such a date as changes are made to police departments there and I don't mean this as an insult in any way - I would seriously have some concern for my physical safety and general well being given the recent issues with Twin Cities police in more than one Twin Cities Metro Area municipality.

.

your explanation just doesn't do it for me. Trying to destroy other people's lives and take their pension away, whether it is due to their race, sexual orientation, religion, job title or political beliefs is wrong. As I have said, there are bad people in each of the prior categories. Obviously unless you believe for instance LGBT are evil because of your religious beliefs or anyone who is non-Christian is a terrorist, all Republicans are racist or all Democrats are sore losers, most people have life experiences that say otherwise.

The police are supposed to be public servants. But as citizens, we also have a part to play. We are supposed to go to work, follow the laws, vote, pay taxes, take care of our family members and communities. As in ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country culture.

You have an immense amount of crime, way above average in your zip code.

https://www.bestplaces.net/crime/zip-code/arizona/phoenix/85006

obviously the police are in your neighborhood for a reason. What are you and your neighbors doing to fight crime? I imagine that would curtail many many police visits to your area. If you don't want the police showing up, do something to stop the crime.

[goldensmom]

<gimmethesimplelife> Rob, There is a house for sale down the road from us. You are welcome to buy it and move here. Low crime, a loose cow now and then, eats some corn and hay (destruction of property?) but we just herd it home and deal with it….no law enforcement necessary. Yup, I see that as a solution, come be my neighbor. :)

[gimmethesimplelife]

<gimmethesimplelife> Rob, There is a house for sale down the road from us. You are welcome to buy it and move here. Low crime, a loose cow now and then, eats some corn and hay (destruction of property?) but we just herd it home and deal with it….no law enforcement necessary. Yup, I see that as a solution, come be my neighbor. :)Hi Goldensmom! Just curious, where is the house and how much? There is another poster here who I cant think of their screen name at the moment who has posted of ultra-low housing prices in the Midwest before and given that I never bought into the American belief that one should be living to work instead of working to live, ultra cheap housing sounds very attractive. The only kicker is that such places tend to be very conservative and I've got my life and my husband to think of........But I still think moving to the Midwest is saner than some folks I know that just left the 85006 to move to Nogales, Arizona - right on the border with Mexico. It's overrun with law enforcement of all stripes all over the place and there are stories of local residents hitting the jackpot due to lawsuits over excessive law enforecment behavior. These people I know moved to Nogales hoping for a successful lawsuit - they see moving to the border as a stepping stone.

On the one hand, I find this incredibly depressing that life in America has sunk to this - on the other hand, I don't deny unpleasant reality and I "get it" even if I don't especially like it. How this ties into your post though is that I think the lower priced life you have recommended is saner than that of the people I know hoping to cash in on law enforcement abuse of local residents at the border. Something else too is that I am not the most especially handy person out there but I bet some of this can be learned via youtube videos and patience and trial and error. Rob

[goldensmom]

Hi Goldensmom! Just curious, where is the house and how much?


Michigan and $185,000. How do you feel about snow? It is a relatively politically conservative area. I live 10 miles from a town of about 2500. You’d be my nearest neighbor at 1 ½ miles. It is usually very quiet and really no problems from anyone. Upside, however, there is a new library in town!!

[Alan]

It's overrun with law enforcement of all stripes all over the place and there are stories of local residents hitting the jackpot due to lawsuits over excessive law enforecment behavior. These people I know moved to Nogales hoping for a successful lawsuit - they see moving to the border as a stepping stone.
So you live in and support an area where people go out of their way to instigate incidents with law enforcement in hopes of a lawsuit? Have you ever considered the possibility that law enforcement isn't the problem?

[gimmethesimplelife]

So you live in and support an area where people go out of their way to instigate incidents with law enforcement in hopes of a lawsuit? Have you ever considered the possibility that law enforcement isn't the problem?No, Alan....please reread my post if you would be so kind. I was speaking of Nogales, Arizona (not Phoenix) and people that I know who have recently moved from the 85006 to Nogales, Arizona, hoping for a lawsuit against law enforcement as law enforcement there lately has been over the top. They told me and my cousin that this is their only hope - this chance to cash in on Trump's America. I find the whole idea depressing but of course I understand. It's what America in it's current form pushes people to. Whether or not it's right or wrong means nothing to me until anyone judging such people finds the emotional strength to turn that finger right back around on America (as it so richly deserves) and asks what about America causes such desperate thinking.........I of course instinctively have emotional strength to this level. Many other people I live amongst in my zip code do too. Rob

PS No need to instigate "law enforcement" in Nogales - they behave in Jeff Payne like ways with no provocation whatsoever. Really, it's like they are begging for lawsuits to occupy their time and feed them some kind of twisted drama. There are of course though who will be practical enough to cash in on this - can you really blame such people, really? I'm not quite equal to this behavior myself but I do understand and respect it even if I do find it depressing - it's only cashing in on what this country has sunk to - nothing more, nothing less. Rob

[Alan]

It's what America in it's current form pushes people to. Whether or not it's right or wrong means nothing to me until anyone judging such people finds the emotional strength to turn that finger right back around on America (as it so richly deserves) and asks what about America causes such desperate thinking.........I of course instinctively have emotional strength to this level. Many other people I live amongst in my zip code do too. Rob

Most people instinctively point fingers in the proper direction. I think you need a new compass.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Most people instinctively point fingers in the proper direction. I think you need a new compass.I will agree to disagree with you once again then. Happy Labor Day. Rob

[SteveinMN]

Rob, I'm glad you recognize that, far more often than not, I've been in your corner on social and political issues. I just see a different picture here.

Of course people in the Twin Cities are aware of the Damond and Castile incidents, among others.

You are aware, I hope (this is background for others), that the officer that shot Philando Castile was tried in court and acquitted; investigation continues in the Damond incident. The officer in the Castile shooting was released from the police department in which he served and the incident pushed the city in which the shooting occurred to contract for police services with an entirely different police department. In addition, the city settled with Castile's family for about three million dollars in damages.

In the Damond case, the officer will remain on leave until an investigation for trial is complete, which, according to an article in the local paper in the last couple of weeks, likely will be by the end of the year. Partly because of her handling of this incident, the Minneapolis Chief of Police resigned. Both shootings and the outcome of the Yanez trial (Castile) sponsored demonstrations around The Cities. No one here -- white or otherwise -- has swept either incident under the rug.

At the same time, however, I'm not aware of any extraordinary reaction making people here any more reluctant to call police than they were before. Hundreds of officers have encounters with thousands of people every day here and even the more-sensational (but still credible) news and opinion sources here are not fear-mongering or urging people not to call police when needed.

Yes, there's a problem, here and elsewhere. The Castile and Damond shootings are incidents in which "normal" encounters with police officers suddenly turned tragic. They should never have happened. Yanez' acquittal surprised me, but I was not privy to all of the evidence presented at the trial. I have to remain open to the jury having heard testimony that was not public beyond the Facebook stream Castile's girlfriend provided. There's not much information about the Damond case yet, but they're still gathering what they can.

My point is twofold: While these incidents (as well as the one with the Edina man you mentioned) are terrible and, in my opinion, reflective of much deeper issues within the environment in which we expect LEOs to work, they are three incidents among tens of thousands over the years. Even if they represent more less- or un-reported incidents (which I think is likely), that still makes those negative interactions a small percentage of the overall number of exchanges that citizens experience with LEOs here. As I wrote earlier, to refuse to set foot in Minneapolis or Saint Paul because of these incidents -- considering even a "liberal" addition to the percentages of how often such problems occur -- is like never flying because planes sometimes crash. I find your reaction of outright terror at the thought of encountering a LEO extreme.

In addition, I believe there are root causes to these situations. I find it interesting that in both of these cases, the officers are members of minorities themselves, so it does not seem Arpaio-esque bigotry is at play here. Something else is going on. Is it training? Is it the environment? Are the wrong people being hired? Identifying and addressing those causes, I believe, is far more helpful to the cause than calling someone at a police station and complaining.

IMHO (and, again, based on what I know of the situation), Yanez escalated the situation. Castile told Yanez he was carrying and had the right permit. Perhaps Yanez needed more training in de-escalating situations. Perhaps there needs to be new rules on how to ask someone carrying a gun to present their license and registration; Castile is not the first person in American history to be carrying a gun and a wallet. In the Damond case, the officer claimed he heard a noise at the same time Damond appeared by the squad car in a dark alley -- and fired. Across his partner's body and out a window. Pretty much anyone with a lick of sense could tell you that situation could have been far worse had his partner moved forward or more people were outside the car. Why did he do that? Inexperience (he was the experienced officer in the vehicle)? Fear (that part of South Minneapolis is not a "bad" neighborhood)? Hatred (unlikely, IMHO)? The sargeant answering the phone in that precinct changes none of those root issues on his/her own.

I also will note that, beyond job loss and civil monetary settlements, both of these officers, regardless of court outcomes, will live the rest of their lives knowing they killed someone. Maybe it's just me but I don't think killing someone leaves the killer unaffected unless they're a real sociopath/mentally ill. That does not appear to be the case for either officer here.

Rob, I'm not telling you to quit following your conscience here. I just think you're overreacting and that your remedy is of questionable value. That fear/outrage/energy can be turned in a direction that is more likely to give you the results you (in fact, all of us) seek.

[razz]

If one gets fear-mongering running out of control, please bear in mind that a number of people in Canada are refusing to cross the border into the US due to the number of legally held guns held by the general public in the US. I shake my head and keep quiet as fear-mongering is not rational thinking. If someone is that fearful, travelling is not fun anyway.

While I am quite willing to visit the US, driving there on the expressways scares me. The busiest road in North America is the 401 through Toronto http://https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-busiest-highway-in-north-america-1559577839. I do drive on it but avoid as much as possible. The speed is usually around 110-120km or 70-75mph. Some expressways in the US appear to have cars travelling at much higher speeds or far more erratically. I have no confidence in driving there as a result. My fears impacting my decisions.

[iris lilies]

Perhaps of interest:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shonin/shonin?ref=83yikt

oh hell, I would buy that thing to record conversations in my marriage. " you said blah blah blah" " no I did not!" "Yes you did!" Is a dialog we have far too often.

[LDAHL]

If one gets fear-mongering running out of control, please bear in mind that a number of people in Canada are refusing to cross the border into the US due to the number of legally held guns held by the general public in the US. I shake my head and keep quiet as fear-mongering is not rational thinking. If someone is that fearful, travelling is not fun anyway.

While I am quite willing to visit the US, driving there on the expressways scares me. The busiest road in North America is the 401 through Toronto http://https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-busiest-highway-in-north-america-1559577839. I do drive on it but avoid as much as possible. The speed is usually around 110-120km or 70-75mph. Some expressways in the US appear to have cars travelling at much higher speeds or far more erratically. I have no confidence in driving there as a result. My fears impacting my decisions.

If I were them, I'd be more worried by the illegally held guns. It's funny how much trouble people have assessing risk. Sharks get a whole week on the Discovery Channel, but more people are killed by bees, cows and hippopotami.

My understanding was that more people are killed by automobiles than guns in the US, even including the gun deaths by suicide, so your concern would seem to be more rational than theirs. I don't know what the odds are of being shot by rampaging policemen.

[LDAHL]

oh hell, I would buy that thing to record conversations in my marriage. " you said blah blah blah" " no I did not!" "Yes you did!" Is a dialog we have far too often.

I can't help but think that would be counter-productive for domestic tranquility.

To keep your marriage flowing,
With love from the loving cup.
Whenever you're wrong, admit it.
Whenever you're right, shut up.
- Ogden Nash

[iris lilies]

I can't help but think that would be counter-productive for domestic tranquility.

To keep your marriage flowing,
With love from the loving cup.
Whenever you're wrong, admit it.
Whenever you're right, shut up.
- Ogden Nash

yes, you are right which is probably why I havent invested in The Marriage
Tape Recorder that I keep telling DH I need.

[Teacher Terry]

Rob, I think it is terrible that people are moving to a place and hoping to be a victim so they can win a lawsuit. I have agreed with you in the past but I do not understand this. IL, my DH and I go round and round about what was said too as we get older:))

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, I think it is terrible that people are moving to a place and hoping to be a victim so they can win a lawsuit. I have agreed with you in the past but I do not understand this. IL, my DH and I go round and round about what was said too as we get older:))Hi TT!

Just to be clear, I understand people moving to Nogales, Arizona for this - but I don't exactly approve of it, either. Let's just say I have no intention personally of packing my bags and renting a UHaul and following these folks down there.....I get it but I don't wish to be part of this insanity, either. Rob

[Teacher Terry]

Glad you don't approve either:)) Wis also has a lower cost of living but is not so conservative.

[LDAHL]

Moving to a town for the express purpose of being abused by the police and consequently pursuing a lawsuit seems to be a somewhat less rational business model than the lottery. Absent deliberately provoking an incident, the odds would seem pretty long on running into one of Rob's rogue cops under just the right circumstances. This strategy smacks of good old-fashioned insurance fraud to me.

[gimmethesimplelife]

If one gets fear-mongering running out of control, please bear in mind that a number of people in Canada are refusing to cross the border into the US due to the number of legally held guns held by the general public in the US. I shake my head and keep quiet as fear-mongering is not rational thinking. If someone is that fearful, travelling is not fun anyway.

While I am quite willing to visit the US, driving there on the expressways scares me. The busiest road in North America is the 401 through Toronto http://https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-busiest-highway-in-north-america-1559577839. I do drive on it but avoid as much as possible. The speed is usually around 110-120km or 70-75mph. Some expressways in the US appear to have cars travelling at much higher speeds or far more erratically. I have no confidence in driving there as a result. My fears impacting my decisions.Hi Razz!

I have been reading of the US/Canadian border recently, and I remember my last time crossing into Canada years ago back in 1996 and how pleasant it was - I was so impressed as the Border Agent I interacted with, after they asked me a few expected questions, spent a good minute with me giving me advice on places I might want to check out in Vancouver. This was actually one of the most pleasant border crossings I have ever had entering any country.

Now I've read that BOTH sides of the border - Canada, too - can be quite nasty to enter. From what I'm reading, 9/11 changed the US/Canada border and the paranoia of the refugees that Canada has accepted - the paranoia in the US of these refugees - does not help. I will say that years ago when I reentered the US from Canada, I was not exactly harrassed by the US Border Agent - I entered in Washington State via ferry from Canada - I was asked a few questions, no big deal there, but then 20 seconds was spent trying to get a reason out of me why I'd visit Canada instead of somewhere I'd never been in the United States. The Agent did not care for my answer, either, which was that human life is worth socialized medicine in Canada unlike in the United States and I'm morally and ethically obligated to support such with my tourism dollars. Did not go over well but other than an evil glare and a few tense seconds, it wasn't all that bad. I was not sent to secondary and I was not further questioned.....today I don't know how I'd answer such a question at the Northern Border.....from what I've read agents on both sides of the border are drunk on power and will try to nab you for the slightest imagined thing.

That all said, I've also read that since Trump was sworn in, more and more Canadians are being turned away from the US for the flimsiest of reasons, if any, and that more and more Canadians are boycotting the US due to Trump and the border nastiness/uncertainty of crossing. It's a sad thing as Canada has for a long time been an ally of the US and an alternative to the US for those who could get accepted to immigrate to Canada......I for my part respect Canada and I would wish Canada better treatment from the US. Much like I apologize non-stop for Donald Trump's existence while I am in Mexico - I also apologize to Canada and I hope Canadians realize that not all Americans support Trump, or voted for him, or even believe in the United States to begin with. The insanity I have read that Canadians are encountering attempting to cross the border - it's not illustrative of all Americans once having crossed the border, I guess like the point other posters have tried to make here that the bad actions of a few US police officers are not illustrative of all US police officers (something I will take up on a later response). Rob

[razz]

Gimme, I can only go on what my daughter and family experienced in their visit to Washington which they drove, found accommodation in Maryland and took daily transit for the week in March to downtown Washington during the March, 2017 school break. They raved about the warmth and support expressed the whole week from staff, other travellers and guides.
Courtesy throughout, very brief, border visits, going and return. They bought very little as it was more a visit to experience than shop so little to declare beyond some booze at the Duty-free shop.

There have been some challenges reported in the media but I would have no hesitation to crossing the border at either Niagara or Sarnia.
Friends go to NY state to visit family with no concerns or delays in either direction; volume might be a problem at times but even that has gone down since the exchange rate is so far out of sync.

I spoke to US citizens who were attending the same play at Stratford Festival on August 29th and they spoke of a 4.5 hour trip home with no expressed concerns about the border crossing. Both C and US citizens need a passport but that is not unreasonable.

It seems that challenges are different in your part of the world which makes it hard for those of us not encountering similar obstacles to fully understand your fears. May I suggest that while supporting your community as you see wise, please just recognize that many of us don't encounter similar challenges.

I ache when I read the tension between the differing points of view as neither is actually walking in the other's shoes.

[bae]

Just a shout-out from the 98245.

I live right on the US/Canada border. I could probably swim to Canada if I put on my water rescue suit so the hypothermia didn't get to me. I crossed the border half a dozen times last week.

I have not seen the situation Rob describes about US/Canada border relations, in this region. It is a fantasy.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Just a shout-out from the 98245.

I live right on the US/Canada border. I could probably swim to Canada if I put on my water rescue suit so the hypothermia didn't get to me. I crossed the border half a dozen times last week.

I have not seen the situation Rob describes about US/Canada border relations, in this region. It is a fantasy.Personally, I have not experienced this either, Bae. I am merely passing along what I have read online from multiple sources. Though I will say I'm glad to hear others saying that it's not like that. I also mentioned above that my experience entering Canada in 1996 was very pleasant, and my return experience entering the US from Canada in 1996, though not pleasant, was not one of fear and/or terror, either. It wasn't pleasant but didn't last long and didn't escalate so I'm not going to complain. Rob

PS I think it's cool that you mentioned your zip code in your post, for what it's worth lol.

[dmc]

I don't cross the border very often. But it's never been a hassle. Going to the Bahamas they don't ask for much, you have to fill out a form with passenger info, then pay them a fee for both coming and going. Back to the states you have to file a flight plan and give them notice of your arrival time to stop at customs. Actually you have to file a plan when your leaving also. I rarely file a flight plan in the states.

[dmc]

The real crime we need to go after is servers spitting in food. Just think of the horror, who knows what disease may be spread. And let's not forget the ones who don't wash their hands in the restrooms. They have no regard for human rights. Hopefully they can be caught on cell phones and lose their jobs for life. And of coarse big lawsuits to follow.

ill bet this has happened to more people than bad cops.

[gimmethesimplelife]

The real crime we need to go after is servers spitting in food. Just think of the horror, who knows what disease may be spread. And let's not forget the ones who don't wash their hands in the restrooms. They have no regard for human rights. Hopefully they can be caught on cell phones and lose their jobs for life. And of coarse big lawsuits to follow.

ill bet this has happened to more people than bad cops.Methinks Alex Wubbels and their heirs of various victims of the police in the Twin Cities Metro Area would beg to differ with you......Rob

[Alan]

The real crime we need to go after is servers spitting in food. Just think of the horror, who knows what disease may be spread. And let's not forget the ones who don't wash their hands in the restrooms. They have no regard for human rights. Hopefully they can be caught on cell phones and lose their jobs for life. And of coarse big lawsuits to follow.

ill bet this has happened to more people than bad cops.
It might be fun to follow Rob around each of his shifts, recording his every move, every customer interaction, while simultaneously talking trash in hopes he'll react in some way which would guarantee us a big payday, and with the added bonus of taking away his livelihood.

On second thought it probably wouldn't be fun at all, there's really no pleasure to be found in forced Karma.

[bae]

I went out with the whole family last night to a very expensive restaurant here, for a very special occasion.

The meal, and the service, were so bad that I did take photos and videos with my smartphone, and I've already made complaints to the Sheriff. I'm hoping the business will be run out of town on a rail.

[razz]

Not what I have come to expect from you at all, Alan. OK, time for me to leave this thread alone.

It might be fun to follow Rob around each of his shifts, recording his every move, every customer interaction, while simultaneously talking trash in hopes he'll react in some way which would guarantee us a big payday, and with the added bonus of taking away his livelihood.

On second thought it probably wouldn't be fun at all, there's really no pleasure to be found in forced Karma.

[bae]

It might be fun to follow Rob around each of his shifts, recording his every move, every customer interaction, while simultaneously talking trash in hopes he'll react in some way which would guarantee us a big payday, and with the added bonus of taking away his livelihood.


Sort of like being a "secret shopper"?

[Alan]

Not what I have come to expect from you at all, Alan. OK, time for me to leave this thread alone.Sorry, but conventional wisdom tells us that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Fortunately, not many of us would follow through, especially since the stated purpose of this sort of activity is to provide fodder for large settlements. It's probably good for those who would follow through to consider their actions on a personal level.

[Alan]

Sort of like being a "secret shopper"?Sort of, but more overt and in-your-face.

[ToomuchStuff]

Not what I have come to expect from you at all, Alan. OK, time for me to leave this thread alone.

Here's your sign.
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1893&stc=1


So I guess Alan is going to be put on paid leave now as the owner of this forum, while zip codes call in.:laff:

[iris lilies]

"Agressive phone targeting" can also lead to indifferent public servants. Too many calls from obvious target campaigns are tiring.

Over on the MMM board there is ongoing discussion about political action, and there is debate about identifying oneself as a non-constituent when calling elected officials.

As a police chief, in, for instance, St. louis, I would not care much about the opinion of someone in the 85006. It may venture into unethical territory if a caller pretends to be a constituent. Personally, I think it is fine to give a small campsign donation and identify oneself as a "campaign contributor" when calling or writing.

[dmc]

"Agressive phone targeting" can also lead to indifferent public servants. Too many calls from obvious target campaigns are tiring.

Over on the MMM board there is ongoing discussion about political action, and there is debate about identifying oneself as a non-constituent when calling elected officials.

As a police chief, in, for instance, St. louis, I would not care much about the opinion of someone in the 85006. It may venture into unethical territory if a caller pretends to be a constituent. Personally, I think it is fine to give a small campsign donation and identify oneself as a "campaign contributor" when calling or writing.

Or they will set up phone lines like the cable company gives you if you want to cancel service. After a few hours on hold they will give you someone you can't understand.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It might be fun to follow Rob around each of his shifts, recording his every move, every customer interaction, while simultaneously talking trash in hopes he'll react in some way which would guarantee us a big payday, and with the added bonus of taking away his livelihood.

On second thought it probably wouldn't be fun at all, there's really no pleasure to be found in forced Karma.The difference? I don't carry a gun and if I choose to shoot and kill someone, I'm going to prison. There will be no paid administrative leave for me with full benefits while on leave, no union to protect me, no "I was afraid" defense to get me off with a slap on the wrist if even that.....these facts alone here, to me anyway, render your point meaningless. The differences here - due to the lack of checks on balances on the power of the police - are wider than the Grand Canyon at it's widest point - and from working many seasons at both the North and South Rims of the Grand Canyon, I can vouch that the distance between the two rims is wide indeed. Seriously. Rob

[ToomuchStuff]

The difference? I don't carry a gun and if I choose to shoot and kill someone, I'm going to prison.

No, you may get a trial, same as them. (there are cases of clear self defense where the party isn't charged) You will also be subject to civil lawsuit, same as them. (in cases of clear self defense, you can still be sued by the family of the attacker) You will not be up for administrative punishment, that they will be up for. (and being paid for while investigated to make sure they were doing what they are supposed to do)

Edit, I should add in your F&B job, you could just as easily kill someone (poison), which may take longer to trace back to you. You would also be civilly and criminally liable, as well as administratively (fired/work hours cut, etc.) punishable.

[Alan]

The difference? I don't carry a gun and if I choose to shoot and kill someone, I'm going to prison. Are you implying that any officer involved shooting is the result of the police officer "choosing" to shoot and kill someone? If so, I strongly suggest you stop depending upon social media for your 'facts'.


I can vouch that the distance between the two rims is wide indeed. Seriously
Much of that void is actually filled with extenuating circumstances, but you'd never see it if you only look at the other side.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Are you implying that any officer involved shooting is the result of the police officer "choosing" to shoot and kill someone? If so, I strongly suggest you stop depending upon social media for your 'facts'.


Much of that void is actually filled with extenuating circumstances, but you'd never see it if you only look at the other side.Yes, I do believe that there are police officers who choose to just shoot and kill someone "just because" - both life and my US citizenship have taught me that, as has living in a lower income area. I'm glad I know this, too - this is not knowledge I'd EVER want to trade in - sort of like how when wages were better in America and raises still existed, people would trade in their cars every few years? (at least in better zip codes, anyway) - I'd never want to trade in this knowledge or trade up to something different.

That said, however, I do believe that those officers engaging in police brutality who choose to shoot and kill just because they can get away with it are in the minority. To be fair, much more common are illegal and unconstitutional beating and attacks. Thank God for smartphone video for getting this out into the court of public opinion so that reality of the police and what they are all about is sifting upwards through the social classes. I also believe the Alex Wubbels arrest - though hardly as brutal an arrest as many others the police are guilty of for no legal reason whatsoever - will help in sifting the reality of what the American police are all about upwards through the social classes. It's not only about time but very much long overdue. Better late than never though, no? Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Are you implying that any officer involved shooting is the result of the police officer "choosing" to shoot and kill someone? If so, I strongly suggest you stop depending upon social media for your 'facts'.


Much of that void is actually filled with extenuating circumstances, but you'd never see it if you only look at the other side.And the extenuating circumstances in the Alex Wubbels arrest again were? (Just to mention one high profile recent example....many others regarding police brutality are available for your examination, too.....) no shortage of such material, we have to give the American police that much to be fair, no? Rob

[bae]

Yes, I do believe that there are police officers who choose to just shoot and kill someone "just because" - both life and my US citizenship have taught me that, ...

How many such police officers are there?

There are on the order of 1 million full-time & part-time sworn officers (~800k in 2008). I'm sure that out of a population of roughly a million there are a couple of psychopaths and serial killers.

But how common is this? If one member of a population exhibits a trait, do all members of the population have that trait?

John Wayne Gayce was a gay, pedophile, serial killer, who tortured and killed 30+ people.

Are all homosexuals serial killers, or pedophiles? Should we treat them as such, until proven otherwise?

I think he worked in food service for a while too.... As a manager.....

[bae]

And the extenuating circumstances in the Alex Wubbels arrest again were?

Did they shoot and kill Wubbels? I missed that video.

[Alan]

And the extenuating circumstances in the Alex Wubbels arrest again were? That was just stupid, although there are extenuating circumstances. Have you ever heard of Implied Consent and the recent changes to the pretty much universal implied consent law? When I was involved in active policing the premise of Implied Consent enabled police to take breath or blood or urine samples from an unconscious driver. It is also Implied Consent which enables the state to revoke a drivers license from a conscious driver suspected of driving under the influence if that driver refuses to consent to breath/blood/urine testing. In this case I was actually surprised to hear that the Supreme Court ruled that blood samples would no longer be covered under the Implied Consent Law as of just last year.

Another extenuating circumstance is that the police officer in question is also a trained phlebotomist, which is why he was chosen for the detail. He went to the hospital to take the blood himself, not to demand the nurse do so. Whether right or wrong, the fact that she refused access to the patient could be seen as an obstruction of justice.

There may be others but I'm not aware of what they may be, that's where the court system comes into play. The court of public opinion isn't informed enough to enforce the retaliation you'd like to see.

[gimmethesimplelife]

There is good news about Detective Jeff Payne of the Salt Lake City PD! I wanted to post this before going off with my husband to have a few drinks and carne asada with neighbors to celebrate the good news.....He was fired! Not from the PD, but from his other P/T job as an ambulance driver, for threatening to take only homeless people to the hospital Alex Wubbels works at after having been given flack for his illegal and unconstitutional actions. It's not the great ending we of the 85006 are fighting for - but it is progress and warrants fellowship and a shot or two of Presidente to celebrate.

So nice to finally post something heart warming and positive about this evil and sordid story. Rob

[bae]

He was fired! Not from the PD, but from his other P/T job as an ambulance driver, for threatening to take only homeless people to the hospital Alex Wubbels works at after having been given flack for his illegal and unconstitutional actions.

Illegal and unconstitutional - I don't have enough facts in front of me to judge, I see so many conflicting accounts on media. Certainly in this state a police officer couldn't *order* me to perform a medical procedure on a patient without patient consent, and against the protocols of my medical director. An officer *could* demand access to the patient in some circumstances, but it isn't clear from the accounts that those circumstances were in play.

However, as an "ambulance driver" (which is a derogatory term that is triggering, and only people within a certain culture can use it without offense, which I'll forgive you for as you don't even understand your privilege yet...) interfering with patient care by choosing destinations to "punish" an institution, which is what you claim he did, is beyond simply wrong. We deliver patients to the fastest-reachable higher-level-of-care facility that can receive them, by the most practical means, every time. It's sort of the law....

[bae]

He went to the hospital to take the blood himself, not to demand the nurse do so. Whether right or wrong, the fact that she refused access to the patient could be seen as an obstruction of justice.


That would depend on specific details that I haven't seen in media accounts. Once a patient is in my care, I have certain legal duties towards them. Which include protecting them from inappropriate attentions of others. There are situations in which I would be required to ignore a law enforcement officer's demands, and perhaps even to resist them.

This of course would not end well for anyone involved, in the short term or the long term. Which is why we encourage an atmosphere of inter-agency cooperation and understanding.

The details, of course, don't fit in a tweet.

[jp1]

That was just stupid, although there are extenuating circumstances. Have you ever heard of Implied Consent and the recent changes to the pretty much universal implied consent law? When I was involved in active policing the premise of Implied Consent enabled police to take breath or blood or urine samples from an unconscious driver. It is also Implied Consent which enables the state to revoke a drivers license from a conscious driver suspected of driving under the influence if that driver refuses to consent to breath/blood/urine testing. In this case I was actually surprised to hear that the Supreme Court ruled that blood samples would no longer be covered under the Implied Consent Law as of just last year.

Another extenuating circumstance is that the police officer in question is also a trained phlebotomist, which is why he was chosen for the detail. He went to the hospital to take the blood himself, not to demand the nurse do so. Whether right or wrong, the fact that she refused access to the patient could be seen as an obstruction of justice.

There may be others but I'm not aware of what they may be, that's where the court system comes into play. The court of public opinion isn't informed enough to enforce the retaliation you'd like to see.

Implied consent would only apply if the driver of the truck had been suspected of driving under the influence. In this case the driver was only in an accident when the other driver swerved into oncoming traffic and caused the accident. The truck driver whose blood the cop wanted was not suspected of any wrongdoing.

[ToomuchStuff]

So nice to finally post something heart warming and positive about this evil and sordid story. Rob


Never watched Bambi as a child? Too traumatic for an eight year old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I71cY9Ysy5U

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm crossing my fingers today and hoping for more good news from Salt Lake City in regards to the Wubbels arrest. I will say that the police are getting more testy when you call in and complain -it's really like they actually expect citizens to just let them get away with this. Amazing the arrogance yet another police department has - but at least activists are working to partially correct this in legal ways. Rob

[iris lilies]

I am surprised the 85006 isnt focused on St Louis' Stockley verdict, due any moment. Riot barricades are up, the mayor recorded a YouTube video to tell everyone to Heal and understand, and it is business as usual in St. Louis.

why dont you call Mayor Krewson's office, Rob, and bug her? I am already kind of sick of her even though I voted for her.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I am surprised the 85006 isnt focused on St Louis' Stockley verdict, due any moment. Riot barricades are up, the mayor recorded a YouTube video to tell everyone to Heal and understand, and it is business as usual in St. Louis.

why dont you call Mayor Krewson's office, Rob, and bug her? I am already kind of sick of her even though I voted for her.Thank You, IL....this seems to have escaped notice after the unbelievable evil of the Wubbels arrest - and Utah is very close to Arizona - it's the next state going north. But I will pass your comment along the phone tree and see if we can get some call agitation going, certainly. It's kind of you to provide something worth the time of 85006 activists, and I mean no snark...this is said kindly and in good faith. Thank You. If we have been asleep at the wheel here I do feel bad. Rob

Came back to add IL - you are of course under no obligation but since you seem to have some awareness, I thought I'd mention this. Utah Governor Gary Herbert has a Facebook page that is still accepting comments. You are welcome to post there if the Wubbels fiasco upsets you? If you do go there, you will see my posts perhaps if they are not buried too far down the list of comments - you will see how I engage with government officials - professionally but yet very to the point and very direct without crossing the line into nasty (which doesn't work in most cases and I wish more people would learn this!) At any rate, you are under no obligation - I'm just passing this info along. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I would like to give some credit where credit is due. I just received a call from an office representative of the State Governor's Office (Gary Herbert being the Governor) of Utah, leading me through a series of steps and procedures being put into place as a result of the Wubbels arrest/illegal assault. This is the first office I have called that has been willing to be human and extend the respect to speak to me like an adult and give me some idea of exactly what is being done to address this most heinous issue. My hat is off to the Governor's Office......Glad to see this basic humanity they displayed. Rob

[JaneV2.0]

Although I wouldn't characterize Wubbels' treatment as "unbelievable evil," especially compared to the death and torture stories police seem to generate regularly, it's worth noting that the offending officer has been taken off his EMT detail at least.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Although I wouldn't characterize Wubbels' treatment as "unbelievable evil," especially compared to the death and torture stories police seem to generate regularly, it's worth noting that the offending officer has been taken off his EMT detail at least.And he's been fired from his other P/T job, too, and is probably stressed out as we speak running survival math numbers through his head....at last night's get together I brought this up with several neighbors and the thought of Payne's living in financial fear calmed a few people right down almost pronto. Nothing like the reality of America spreading upwards to calm lower income people down......Rob

[Alan]

.....the thought of Payne's living in financial fear calmed a few people right down almost pronto.
Rob, I honestly believe you should stop speaking for the 85006 and come up with a better term for your circle of friends. I can't imagine an entire zip code being so callous.

[bae]

And he's been fired from his other P/T job, too, and is probably stressed out as we speak running survival math numbers through his head....at last night's get together I brought this up with several neighbors and the thought of Payne's living in financial fear calmed a few people right down almost pronto. Nothing like the reality of America spreading upwards to calm lower income people down......Rob

Wow.

[Teacher Terry]

The hospital took action to make sure they won't find themselves in this situation again. Officers are no longer allowed where patients are and can only talk to nurse supervisors away from the patients. I don't think the calling is effective because you are talking to people that have no authority to change things. They may be sick of the bureaucracy too. I also don't believe people should lose their pensions. They earn them up to the point of being fired. Also I think the terrible things cops see everyday change people for the worse. No excuse of course since they could find another line of work. It is a complicated issue.

[bae]

... interfering with patient care by choosing destinations to "punish" an institution, which is what you claim he did, is beyond simply wrong. We deliver patients to the fastest-reachable higher-level-of-care facility that can receive them, by the most practical means, every time. It's sort of the law....


https://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=45689348&nid=148

[LDAHL]

And he's been fired from his other P/T job, too, and is probably stressed out as we speak running survival math numbers through his head....at last night's get together I brought this up with several neighbors and the thought of Payne's living in financial fear calmed a few people right down almost pronto. Nothing like the reality of America spreading upwards to calm lower income people down......Rob

"The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp."

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, I honestly believe you should stop speaking for the 85006 and come up with a better term for your circle of friends. I can't imagine an entire zip code being so callous.I beg to differ....this is just karma in action, and normal human behavior given what lower income people in the US are expected to tolerate. How'd you like to take a tour of the 85006 and meet the people who you seem to flippantly (if this how you meant it, I'm not sure to be fair) regard as "calllous". Perchance you might come away seeing things in general quite differently, or at least be served a heaping helping of food for thought. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Wow.? He should have thought his actions through before making himself vulnerable to financial crisis. I have no sympathy in this case and I am known to have sympathy for people in crisis. What's different here is the power his badge carried (hopefully soon to be past tense, activists are working on this around the clock to apply pressure) and how he chose to abuse this power. Hopefully (though I rather doubt it based on my life experience in the US all these years) officers around the country will take note and learn something. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

The hospital took action to make sure they won't find themselves in this situation again. Officers are no longer allowed where patients are and can only talk to nurse supervisors away from the patients. I don't think the calling is effective because you are talking to people that have no authority to change things. They may be sick of the bureaucracy too. I also don't believe people should lose their pensions. They earn them up to the point of being fired. Also I think the terrible things cops see everyday change people for the worse. No excuse of course since they could find another line of work. It is a complicated issue.I read that the hospital did change it's policy and the police are no longer allowed to interact with nurses on the floor - I applaud this 100% and hope it can go nationwide so as to protect the next Alex Wubbels from the police. Rob

PS I agree that the issue of pensions here is complex. Say there is a decent officer who has done right and has ten years pension accrued. Then one day this officer snaps and pulls a Jeff Payne - does he keep the accrued pension or does he lose it due to his illegal behavior? I'm personally for the pension going to the victim or the heirs of the victim (in the case of unjustified police killings) but it could be argued what about the ten years preceding this incident and even though I don't agree with this, I do see where a point could be argued for keeping the pension for the ten years of good service. So I can see this issue is a bit complex, yes. Rob

[bae]

?

The "wow" was directed towards the Schadenfreude the community you speak for seems to take in the thought of others experiencing fear and such.

I see now why you had concerns about how the community would treat *you* if you failed to properly attend the correct protests in the correct manner.

[bae]

I beg to differ....this is just karma in action, and normal human behavior given what lower income people in the US are expected to tolerate.

No, Rob, it's not.

I didn't start out wealthy. I started out multigenerational poor. Hillbillies. My father's dental health was so poor that when he joined the Navy at the age of 18, they removed all his remaining teeth and issued him dentures.

My grandparents were poor, from a culture of poor. I lived with them much of the time when my parents were working, in a less-than-single-wide trailer in the woods. We ate squirrels and possums and fish and roadkill.

My grandparents were the kindest gentlest people I ever knew, as were most of the neighbors. They wouldn't delight in others experiencing a downfall and wish harm upon them. Then again, they had values.

[LDAHL]

Surely you can see how gloating over the real or imagined misery of others might strike people as petty and vindictive. Convening groups to do so perhaps even more so. Does justice require such rancor?

[gimmethesimplelife]

The "wow" was directed towards the Schadenfreude the community you speak for seems to take in the thought of others experiencing fear and such.

I see now why you had concerns about how the community would treat *you* if you failed to properly attend the correct protests in the correct manner.I never addressed the issue of my not attending the protests when Trump was in Phoenix recently as the whole thing was very painful to me. I've had time to reflect and calm down and Trump is long gone and what I feared did not materialize so I will address this now.

I was not thrilled and was actually hurt by a few neighborhood activists/organizers/neighbors questioning my loyalties due to my refusal to attend the protest. This was really hard but as I explained, I was worried someone might shoot Trump and then all hell would break loose and I didn't want to be in the midst of that insanity.....I don't mind protesting when he is not in town, however, but Phoenix really is a stupid place for him to show his face. I will admit Trump has his supporters here but Arizona is not the red state it once was and many here hate him....enough so that his presence could have worked very differently than it did and I'm glad cooler heads prevailed.

But getting back to your point - I was not happy that I was looked down on and questioned by some people - that completely rubbed me the wrong way. A few people to date seem to be wary of me and I'm not thrilled with that as I've given of my time and energy and talent to various issues and causes in the neighborhood for some time. I seem to have "redeemed" myself with my activism over the Wubbels incident but this is not the reason I engage(d) in this activism - the Wubbels incident was/is wrong and if I don't engage in activism, coming from the lower classes, I'm just as guilty as the Salt Lake City PD is, and I don't care to live with that. This goes way beyond any 85006 loyalty to me - way, way, way beyond and at a level where I don't compromise.

As to the people at last night's gathering - not all but a few of them have been unjustly treated/harassed by the police in the past - you can not expect them not to take joy in the downfall of Officer Jeff Payne, especially after he so "callously" (burrowing a word from Alan that fits well here) abused the power conferred by his badge (hopefully that badge will be out of his life very soon!!!) - Officer Payne very nicely illustrates (and thankfully without having murdered anyone!!!) so much of what is wrong with the American police and why low income people completely fear and distrust them and why the police when they enter this barrio are automatically assumed to be up to no good and why we have a phone tree to report suspicious police behavior - these days a cop just driving down a street in the neighborhood is viewed as suspicious.

Now, Bae, want to fix this? Address police brutality. Until serious reform efforts of the police are made, get used to people in neighborhoods BETTER than the 85006 (I mean of a higher social class when I use the word better here) behaving this way. The police are out of control and over the top and thankfully, what's left of Middle America seems to be waking up to this fact. Late in the game, yes, but better late than never. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

No, Rob, it's not.

I didn't start out wealthy. I started out multigenerational poor. Hillbillies. My father's dental health was so poor that when he joined the Navy at the age of 18, they removed all his remaining teeth and issued him dentures.

My grandparents were poor, from a culture of poor. I lived with them much of the time when my parents were working, in a less-than-single-wide trailer in the woods. We ate squirrels and possums and fish and roadkill.

My grandparents were the kindest gentlest people I ever knew, as were most of the neighbors. They wouldn't delight in others experiencing a downfall and wish harm upon them. Then again, they had values.Fair enough. So maybe then you can relate....if you want trust, if you want cooperation, if you want to be listened to and respected - you can't enter the neighborhood like wild animals, assuming that lower income people are bad news and all into drugs and/or criminal activity and you most of all can't engage in police brutality. The Phoenix police have earned an F in all regards in this neighborhood and how they are viewed and treated is merely what they have earned. Bed made, but they don't seem to have the emotional strength to lie in the bed they have made. (no great surprise there). It's good that you have some background dealing with the economically challenged but I also believe in the day of your relatives, the police were better behaved and not militarized like they are today, and not of that EVIL Them vs. US mentality.

The above having been said, we of the 85006 certainly display a Them vs. US mentality towards the police. I will give you that here and now. However - the two (a two-fer this time) differences are:

A). The police drew first blood in this neighborhood and continue to do so by suspecting all automatically and by acting on this suspicion, and

B). The police can kill, beat, maim, wound, whatever, and even though some in the 85006 have cashed in on this over the years, the police that are guilty remain on the job. There is no way the police can be trusted as due to cop culture they refuse to give the heave-ho to their psychotic trash that creates the bulk of the problems in the first place.

I guess one way of saying it is that the police don't have good values and most of the 85006, though struggling, does. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Surely you can see how gloating over the real or imagined misery of others might strike people as petty and vindictive. Convening groups to do so perhaps even more so. Does justice require such rancor?Interesting...other than career politicians, I have a harder time seeing any group of people as more petty and vindictive than the police. But I do confess to seeing career politicians as worse in this regard. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

There's new police drama and at a level far above the 85006. Micheal Bennett of the Seattle Seahawks is now claiming he was singled out of a group of people, and thrown down on the ground and roughed up by police in Las Vegas. Deep pockets here and a threat of a lawsuit, plus a name to garner media attention. And the police war against US citizens continues......Rob

[Teacher Terry]

Rob, yes I believe the pension should go to the officer and not the victim. The officer may have a family that will need what he/she earned. The police becoming more violent is a symptom of our entire society that has been more violent. When I was young how often did you ever hear about a random person shooting a cop for no reason? People driving their cars through crowds on purpose ? The police are a reflection of our entire society unfortunately. WE have much bigger issues here and people winning large lawsuits will not solve the problem. It is systemic and even with many changes it will take time to reverse this trend.

[Geila]

I haven't read the thread, just the title, so I might be repeating something already said. In all my dealings with police officers I've only had one negative occurrence. A male officer was being a jerk to me (pulled me over for a driving infraction and proceeded to berate me in an angry and threatening tone). I demanded that he call a second officer and refused to speak with him until the second officer arrived. He had a right to pull me over and cite me, but not to verbally abuse me and I told him so. He called for backup, a female officer came, I lodged a complaint on the male officer and received my driving citation for which the male officer had pulled me over.

All of my other interactions with police officers has been positive and I am grateful that good men and women are willing to do that job. I think the actions of a minority are affecting the majority negatively. That's been my personal experience. That has also been my personal experience with black men. The media would have us believe that black men are all dangerous and violent. I have known many black men in my life: my favorite teacher of all time was Mr. Phillips, a black man and my 6th grade teacher in East L.A., my first boyfriend was also black, and so on. And in all my interactions with black men over the last 40 years, I have had zero negative experiences with them. Not a single one has been violent or dangerous. So how is it that now I have to consciously fight the impulse to categorize every black man as dangerous and violent?

Media can be a good thing, but it can also be used to manipulate and hurt people. And that's because the orchestrators of media are human and human beings can be both amazingly kind and horribly evil. Media is just a tool. Humans are the problem. And I guess the solution too.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, yes I believe the pension should go to the officer and not the victim. The officer may have a family that will need what he/she earned. The police becoming more violent is a symptom of our entire society that has been more violent. When I was young how often did you ever hear about a random person shooting a cop for no reason? People driving their cars through crowds on purpose ? The police are a reflection of our entire society unfortunately. WE have much bigger issues here and people winning large lawsuits will not solve the problem. It is systemic and even with many changes it will take time to reverse this trend.Never say never. You have an excellent point here TT and I'm going to yield some to your point. That being, I did not think of the officer's family and there is no reason I can think of that they should suffer for the actions of an officer. Dead on. And I'm afraid the other activists around me have completely glossed over thinking of the officer's family. Thank You - you have given me a humanity check. Rob

[LDAHL]

Interesting...other than career politicians, I have a harder time seeing any group of people as more petty and vindictive than the police. But I do confess to seeing career politicians as worse in this regard. Rob

There's a good possibility that kind of thinking will do you more harm than any cop ever will.

[gimmethesimplelife]

There's a good possibility that kind of thinking will do you more harm than any cop ever will.I wish we were both standing in front of Salt Lake City nurse Alex Wubblels so that we could get her take on your comment.......Rob

[Ultralight]

There's a good possibility that kind of thinking will do you more harm than any cop ever will.

Rob's anger and bitterness toward police really strikes me as hyperbolic and over-the-top. I've been pulled over a zillion times (mostly when I was young) and given many tickets. I have had my car searched. I have been given sobriety tests (and I am a lifelong teetotaler, as I told the cops too). I have been frisked. I have been arrested. I have been thrown in jail too. haha

But I still don't feel the way Rob does about cops.

I mostly think they are just regular folks in a tough job. Now sure, a few racists and too many sociopaths make it into the ranks. Though I'd say it is still a really, really low percentage.

Do I think things like community policing and some major policy changes could fix many of the problems we have in law enforcement? Yes!

I've heard people say things like:

"Everybody makes fun of rednecks until their car breaks down."

Or:

"Everyone teases the preppers until a torhurriquake hits your neighborhood."

And I think something along these lines should be a saying about cops:

"Everybody thinks cops are the gestapo until they arrest the serial rapist in your town."

So Rob, why not ease up a bit on the cops? I am asking you this as a very liberal liberal, a fellow Lefty McLefterson. Why not just ease up a little?

[Ultralight]

I wish we were both standing in front of Salt Lake City nurse Alex Wubblels so that we could get her take on your comment.......Rob

Have you ever seen anything in the news about cops that was good?

Check this out:

http://people.com/human-interest/houston-police-officer-with-terminal-cancer-helped-save-1000-harvey-victims/

[Alan]

Have you ever seen anything in the news about cops that was good?

Check this out:

http://people.com/human-interest/houston-police-officer-with-terminal-cancer-helped-save-1000-harvey-victims/
Don't harsh his buzz dude!

[LDAHL]

I wish we were both standing in front of Salt Lake City nurse Alex Wubblels so that we could get her take on your comment.......Rob

I think if she read this thread she would probably agree with me.

[bae]

I wish we were both standing in front of Salt Lake City nurse Alex Wubblels so that we could get her take on your comment.......Rob

What grievous harm did she suffer? Was she injured? Imprisoned falsely for some length of time?

Or was she arrested for a short period of time, and then released without being booked? What are the specific damages there?

Now, it did appear she was resisting the arrest. If it was an unlawful arrest, then she has some rights to resist, but this is typically not a winning move. However, arresting officers should be well aware of the law...

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306.

“Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.” John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529

“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491

“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

[gimmethesimplelife]

I think if she read this thread she would probably agree with me.I very much doubt such. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

What grievous harm did she suffer? Was she injured? Imprisoned falsely for some length of time?

Or was she arrested for a short period of time, and then released without being booked? What are the specific damages there?

Now, it did appear she was resisting the arrest. If it was an unlawful arrest, then she has some rights to resist, but this is typically not a winning move. However, arresting officers should be well aware of the law...

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306.

“Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.” John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529

“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491

“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).Bae, please rewatch the video. It is clear that Jeff Payne broke the law and assaulted Alex Wubbels and it's also clear that Wubbels is terrified but also not resisting arrest. Your post above very much scares me and shows why anyone behind a badge can not be trusted in America.

Good news though....Detective Jeff Payne has given a large cross section of America a reality check as to the nasty reality of US citizenship much better than I ever could. I suppose for this, sick and twisted though his illegal actions are, I should thank him. Going forward the police are going to find the general public yet more hostile and non-cooperative and in my own small way, I hope to continue being a part of this in the name of human rights, human dignity, and respect for the rule of law. Rob

[bae]

Bae, please rewatch the video. It is clear that Jeff Payne broke the law and assaulted Alex Wubbels and it's also clear that Wubbels is terrified but also not resisting arrest.


You can't ascertain "broke the law" and "assaulted" purely from the context available in this tape:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yia7qs01z1M

However, at 6:20, the officer says "we're done, you're under arrest". And you can see her evading his grasp. That appears to be "resisting arrest".

She has an out if the officer in fact is carrying out an unlawful arrest. The model jury instructions in this state for resisting arrest charges state:

To convict the defendant of the crime of resisting arrest, each of the following elements of the crime must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt:

(1) That on or about(date), the defendant prevented or attempted to prevent a peace officer from arresting [him] [her];

(2) That the defendant acted intentionally;

(3) That the arrest or attempt to arrest was lawful; and

(4) That any of these acts occurred in the [State of Washington] [City of ] [County of ].

If you find from the evidence that each of these elements has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, then it will be your duty to return a verdict of guilty.

On the other hand, if, after weighing all of the evidence, you have a reasonable doubt as to any one of these elements, then it will be your duty to return a verdict of not guilty.



Your post above very much scares me and shows why anyone behind a badge can not be trusted in America.


I'm puzzled how my post scares you.


Going forward the police are going to find the general public yet more hostile and non-cooperative ...

Wow.

So anyways, I'll ask again, what grievous harm did she suffer?

[Ultralight]

... the nasty reality of US citizenship...

Dude. Your belly is full. You have a job. You were able to marry your husband. You have food, clothing, shelter. You have access to more healthcare and it is more affordable than almost anywhere on the African continent for example.

You have free speech to protest and say totally off-base things without getting "disappeared."

America has its problems. It really does! But keep some perspective here. Okay?

I am a critic of America too -- because I want things to improve, like you probably do. I am still aware though of how good I have it compared to so many other people in so many other nations.

I have food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, and at the moment I even have access to tuition-free higher education at a major university. I have many civil liberties unimaginable to North Koreans. I eat meals daily that would make most any citizen of Swaziland's head spin. I have gotten healthcare that would look like magic to the impoverished sex worker in Bangladesh. My apartment is glorious and fancy in the eyes of someone from Honduras (with my indoor toilet, shower, dishwasher, clothes washer/dryer, etc.)

Wake the F--- UP, Rob!

[goldensmom]

Rob, please, for your own mental health, stop obsessing. Turn away from the news for a few weeks, read a good book on gardening, plants, animals, etc.., take a long walk and look at the sky. If you can’t change the world around you, you can change how you view the world around you. Cleanse your mind and yes, you can do it if you are determined to do so. Find a glass half full on which to focus. I promise you will be happier.

[LDAHL]

Good news though....Detective Jeff Payne has given a large cross section of America a reality check as to the nasty reality of US citizenship much better than I ever could. I suppose for this, sick and twisted though his illegal actions are, I should thank him. Going forward the police are going to find the general public yet more hostile and non-cooperative and in my own small way, I hope to continue being a part of this in the name of human rights, human dignity, and respect for the rule of law. Rob

I doubt a large cross section of America (or even your zip code) gave much thought at all to this incident. I very much doubt it will change the general public's attitude toward the police at all. I think you're attaching way too much importance to isolated incidents and snippets of video, and fitting them into a preconceived narrative. We're probably all guilty of that to some extent, but this seems on the extreme side.

[gimmethesimplelife]

You can't ascertain "broke the law" and "assaulted" purely from the context available in this tape:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yia7qs01z1M

However, at 6:20, the officer says "we're done, you're under arrest". And you can see her evading his grasp. That appears to be "resisting arrest".

She has an out if the officer in fact is carrying out an unlawful arrest. The model jury instructions in this state for resisting arrest charges state:

To convict the defendant of the crime of resisting arrest, each of the following elements of the crime must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt:

(1) That on or about(date), the defendant prevented or attempted to prevent a peace officer from arresting [him] [her];

(2) That the defendant acted intentionally;

(3) That the arrest or attempt to arrest was lawful; and

(4) That any of these acts occurred in the [State of Washington] [City of ] [County of ].

If you find from the evidence that each of these elements has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, then it will be your duty to return a verdict of guilty.

On the other hand, if, after weighing all of the evidence, you have a reasonable doubt as to any one of these elements, then it will be your duty to return a verdict of not guilty.



I'm puzzled how my post scares you.



Wow.

So anyways, I'll ask again, what grievous harm did she suffer?She suffered humiliation and she suffered never seeing America or the police the same way again - as she said, the police will have work to regain her trust. It currently no longer exists. She also suffered by being illegally assaulted for no reason whatsoever at her place of work - something she'll never be able to recover from given that she is a human being. As to why your post is scary - it's simple. The mentality you are displaying seeks to minimize any illegal behavior of this out of control officer and seeks to find excuses for his behavior instead of meting out punishment for his behavior of abuse of power conferred by his badge, which he will hopefully soon be losing.

Many people in the 85006 are advocating for life imprisonment with no chance of parole (for criminal Jeff Payne). I personally believe this might be slightly extreme - I'd be more comfortable with a thirty year sentence myself, giving him a chance to see the light of day once again as an old man - but I can understand why so many people want him locked away for life with no chance of getting out. Scum like that weakens and ruins society but fraying the thin veneer of civility that society depends on to keep functioning - he abused the powers that his badge confers by conducting an illegal assault upon an innocent citizen - anything less than 20 years of imprisonment with no chance of parole is a mockery of the rule of law and proves to each and every US citizen and legal permanent resident that the rule of law and human rights mean nothing in America, and that laws are not applied evenly and that the police are above the law. These are not lessons that bode well for US Society and with your life experience, Bae, I'd think you'd know this. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I doubt a large cross section of America (or even your zip code) gave much thought at all to this incident. I very much doubt it will change the general public's attitude toward the police at all. I think you're attaching way too much importance to isolated incidents and snippets of video, and fitting them into a preconceived narrative. We're probably all guilty of that to some extent, but this seems on the extreme side.This incident is receiving a great deal of attention through the social classes and is generating a great deal of public discussion. Denying this is not going to change this - but the good news is that perhaps due to intense public anger, hatred, and distrust of the police - perhaps the police will be forced to knuckle under to the rule of law and conduct themselves as if not above the law? More and more people have had their fill of police abuses of power and police brutality and more and more people are willing to stand up to the police now as all trust and respect for them are thankfully long gone......I await changes in policing with joy. It's long overdue. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, please, for your own mental health, stop obsessing. Turn away from the news for a few weeks, read a good book on gardening, plants, animals, etc.., take a long walk and look at the sky. If you can’t change the world around you, you can change how you view the world around you. Cleanse your mind and yes, you can do it if you are determined to do so. Find a glass half full on which to focus. I promise you will be happier.I see your point and I don't disagree with you entirely - my take though is more that if I look the other way, knowing what I know about the police, then I am just as guilty as they are for their abusive and illegal acts. I don't care to live with this - hence the activism. Also, starting next week I will be working more and I won't have as much time for activism so I'm doing what I can now. Rob

PS I feel really horrible this morning as I know some unemployed folks in the 85006 who were able to scrape together bus fare to Salt Lake City to join the anti-police activism efforts there....I should be with them, knowing what I know about America and I feel very bad about myself for remaining here in the 85006 - much worse than the night I didn't go to the Trump protests in Phoenix. I have rationalized my remaining here by the knowledge that I need to be here to being training next Monday for the site supervisor gig - but what does that say about me and my convictions that I chose to remain here? My husband sees my point but also says that I did the right thing given the nature of the United States, and that helped, but I still feel horrible about myself. That's another score I have with this country I can't forgive - if you are low income, damned if you do, damned if you don't. It really is a nightmare to live with this day in and day out. Rob

[Geila]

Life is sorrowful. It is a hard reality to swallow but it's true.

Children and women are raped every day. Their bodies are mutilated and tortured. Humans across the world are hungry, tortured and killed. And some people have wealth that baffles the imagination. Others are just plain lucky to live a happy and carefree life.

In this case, I see it as an incident that has received plenty of media coverage because the victim is white. The same as when a young attractive white female is killed or goes missing. If the victim is/was a person of color, no one would hear about it. Or care.

We all have our triggers and battles to fight. But we also need to recognize that those battles deplete us of energy to live and enjoy our own lives. So I would say, choose your battles wisely.

That might sound callous to you Rob, but it's the only way I've found to make peace with our world. It's also the reason I don't believe in organized religion. We're in a chaotic, unfair, sorrowful world. Our only hope is to find the joy in it. And to live our lives as fully as we can. Otherwise we would go mad.

[SteveinMN]

That's another score I have with this country I can't forgive - if you are low income, damned if you do, damned if you don't. It really is a nightmare to live with this day in and day out. Rob
Yes, poor people too often get sh*t on in this country. It's expensive to be poor in America. Social mobility has declined for every "non-1%" group in the U.S. over the last several decades. Americans of all stripes have spent far too long believing politicians who infer that anything someone else gets comes at their expense -- even if it's just something that looks like parity.

Political and social activism is not a bad thing. I believe America faces some real challenges right now and citizens need to be engaged in moving toward solutions. When "citizens" quit working at democracy, they become "subjects". People willing to help citizens explore, determine, and communicate points of view are needed -- honestly, on all sides.

But insisting, despite much testimony from the other participants in this thread, that all law-enforcement officers are enabled sociopaths waiting for the right moments to strike with impunity? Believing that being low-income is a "score" you have to settle? This kind of absolutism is not conducive to progress.

As Ultralight points out, you and your (self-selected) members of 85006 are nowhere near true poverty. You are nowhere near living under the anti-democratic conditions that, say, Venezuela is enduring the past couple of months. You are not at risk of being separated from your family and being deported right now.

If this all aggrieves you so much, Rob, surely there must be some better place for you to live? Is your limited time and energy better spent on venting here, where no one I've seen in 15 pages of discussion has agreed with your point of view, or is it better spent working on getting yourself and your husband to that better place? Maybe staying behind for training was the wise move for you as it enables you to move toward the utopia you seem sure exists. You certainly don't seem to believe there's any improving the situation by staying in the States. Or am I reading this all wrong?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm posting this very quickly from a work break during a lunch banquet. I had the chance today to do something very positive and heart warming as an activist and I'm a bit disappointed that I needed to mention this to other activists, that this had not been thought of by others. I called Gold Cross Ambulance in Salt Lake City - where Salt Lake City Detective Jeff Payne formerly held a P/T position - and thanked their HR department from the bottom of my heart, quite effusively, for firing him. My take is that activism is about so much more than protesting in the streets and the adrenaline rush and the drama - there is room for heartfelt thanks when sane, humane decisions are made such as in this instance with Gold Cross Ambulance firing Jeff Payne. Gotta go - only a few minutes left to inhale the shift meal.

BTW, for anyone following another of my threads here about my upcoming training - four different temps came up to me today and told me Congrats and two of them said I was a good choice for the position as I'm not all about power. That really made my day! Rob

[JaneV2.0]

...

BTW, for anyone following another of my threads here about my upcoming training - four different temps came up to me today and told me Congrats and two of them said I was a good choice for the position as I'm not all about power. That really made my day! Rob

Good work recognizing the ambulance service.
Remember that praise on the inevitable occasions that your new job is trying your last nerve. And congratulations again.

[Teacher Terry]

Rob, so glad that the other employees are happy that you got the job. I agree with UL that you are far better off then most of the world. I think sometimes we all tend to forget this instead focusing on people that have more then us. Suggesting that Payne should get 20-30 years in prison is ridiculous. Extremes are never the solution. I have had friends lose their children and that is real tragedy. The incident with the nurse was unpleasant and scary but most likely will not ruin her entire life. For some reason you have problems keeping things in perspective. You sound like a nice, caring person but for your own mental health I would take a news break.

[bae]

Many people in the 85006 are advocating for life imprisonment with no chance of parole (for criminal Jeff Payne). I personally believe this might be slightly extreme - I'd be more comfortable with a thirty year sentence myself, giving him a chance to see the light of day once again as an old man -

So, for what may be a false arrest/unlawful imprisonment (which in my state is a Class C felony with a maximum sentence of 5 years/$10,000 fine), which lasted only 20 minutes, your enlightened neighborhood would lock the man away *forever*. Whereas you'd be happy for him to be locked up for 30 years w/o parole, so he could get out as an old old man.

That's insane.

I mean, really. It's so disproportionate to the offense that it's unsupportable by anything other than a desire to inflict cruel and unreasonable pain and suffering on someone.

Your answer to "what grievous harm has she suffered?" wouldn't in my estimation fly in our society. It's an answer from some fear-filled fantasy land.

I'm curious, if your neighborhood wants life in prison w/no parole for this offense, what penalties do they wish to use for greater offenses? Televised torture and excruciating execution? Lining up the offender's family and torturing them in front of him first, for especially bad crimes?

Simply amazing.

[Alan]

Simply amazing.
So amazing that I'm starting to believe none of this is real, Rob must be putting us on.

[bae]

So amazing that I'm starting to believe none of this is real, Rob must be putting us on.

I think he overplayed his hand today, indeed.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I see your take of allowing for and minimizing a violent and illegal arrest as indications of the true nature of this citizenship. Touche. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

So, for what may be a false arrest/unlawful imprisonment (which in my state is a Class C felony with a maximum sentence of 5 years/$10,000 fine), which lasted only 20 minutes, your enlightened neighborhood would lock the man away *forever*. Whereas you'd be happy for him to be locked up for 30 years w/o parole, so he could get out as an old old man.

That's insane.

I mean, really. It's so disproportionate to the offense that it's unsupportable by anything other than a desire to inflict cruel and unreasonable pain and suffering on someone.

Your answer to "what grievous harm has she suffered?" wouldn't in my estimation fly in our society. It's an answer from some fear-filled fantasy land.

I'm curious, if your neighborhood wants life in prison w/no parole for this offense, what penalties do they wish to use for greater offenses? Televised torture and excruciating execution? Lining up the offender's family and torturing them in front of him first, for especially bad crimes?

Simply amazing.Bae, you don't get it, do you? Detective Payne gloried in abusing the powers of the badge. Unfortunately for him he chose a very likeable white professional woman as a victim who is quite capable of leveraging herself against all the police truly are and what they are truly about.....stupid man for picking a victim most would side with. At any rate, for his power tripping/all hail my power or I will destroy you behavior, I believe I am being over the top liberal in advocating for such a lenient sentence. If anyone is being nice here it's me, given criminal Jeff Payne's behaviors the whole world can see on video. I will be kind and spare you'all the verdict of District 23 in Vienna where my family in Austria lives other than to say I'm much more kind and humane towards this trash than Austrians are. And don't think I don't question myself for my liberal stance towards this inhumane trash in discussion. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, so glad that the other employees are happy that you got the job. I agree with UL that you are far better off then most of the world. I think sometimes we all tend to forget this instead focusing on people that have more then us. Suggesting that Payne should get 20-30 years in prison is ridiculous. Extremes are never the solution. I have had friends lose their children and that is real tragedy. The incident with the nurse was unpleasant and scary but most likely will not ruin her entire life. For some reason you have problems keeping things in perspective. You sound like a nice, caring person but for your own mental health I would take a news break.Hi TT. I think you might be right about the media fast....so much of this is so stressful to absorb as it's so insane. That said, I don't believe I have the right to let my friends and neighbors down on this one, especially since it's such an obvious and clear cut case of police brutality. I don't want to be guilty of condoning illegal police assualts upon innocent people so I'm basically stuck on this one. Rob

[bae]

I will be kind and spare you'all the verdict of District 23 in Vienna where my family in Austria lives other than to say I'm much more kind and humane towards this trash than Austrians are. And don't think I don't question myself for my liberal stance towards this inhumane trash in discussion. Rob

I think when you start calling people "trash" and questioning their humanity, you are beyond the realm of civic discussion.

Then again, we all know how the Austrians treat people they view as trash, so perhaps it's to be expected.

[LDAHL]

Hi TT. I think you might be right about the media fast....so much of this is so stressful to absorb as it's so insane. That said, I don't believe I have the right to let my friends and neighbors down on this one, especially since it's such an obvious and clear cut case of police brutality. I don't want to be guilty of condoning illegal police assualts upon innocent people so I'm basically stuck on this one. Rob

TT is absolutely right. Not demanding absurdly disproportionate sentences isn't the same thing as "condoning police assaults".

I simply cannot believe your views are in any way representative of the thinking in your corner of Phoenix, Austria or anywhere else. I don't see how a little perspective is "letting them down." You don't need to be especially pro-police to think what this guy did shouldn't be punished more harshly than most murders.

[LDAHL]

I see your take of allowing for and minimizing a violent and illegal arrest as indications of the true nature of this citizenship. Touche. Rob

"Touche" is generally said to acknowledge a point scored against you by your opponent. I'm not sure you mean't to do that here.

Not sharing an extreme view on a topic isn't the same thing as minimizing it.

[gimmethesimplelife]

TT is absolutely right. Not demanding absurdly disproportionate sentences isn't the same thing as "condoning police assaults".

I simply cannot believe your views are in any way representative of the thinking in your corner of Phoenix, Austria or anywhere else. I don't see how a little perspective is "letting them down." You don't need to be especially pro-police to think what this guy did shouldn't be punished more harshly than most murders.The problem as I've stated many times before is the history of police harassment in this neighborhood in Phoenix, AZ. Due to the history of police misbehavior, is it really a stretch that people afraid of the police would want life imprisonment for abuse of power while wearing the badge? For my part I find the acceptance of police brutality a very telling and scary thing - I can't and won't accept this from the police. But I do believe life imprisonment is a bit extreme - there are those who would not agree with this however.

I think part of the problem in this thread is that we really don't all live in the same country, and at this point I would not want a passport to an America where citizens auto-side with the police and actively make excuses for them in the light of damning video that clearly shows right and wrong. I just wouldn't have much in common with the citizens of such a country and they wouldn't have much in common with me. And this is such a huge issue to lower income people and it's only getting worse and growing and growing and growing.

I don't have all the answers and I can see where some takes of the 85006 might come across as extreme to those who don't live in this reality - that doesn't make the takes any less valid and real. It just means that you somehow avoided this reality for the time being although I'd never count on that to continue for the majority of Americans with the level of competition these days. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I think when you start calling people "trash" and questioning their humanity, you are beyond the realm of civic discussion.

Then again, we all know how the Austrians treat people they view as trash, so perhaps it's to be expected.My take Bae is that Detective Jeff Payne? Not only were his infamous behaviors viewed around the world illegal, they were also inhumane. To an extreme - due to his "all hail my power or I'll destroy you" mentality and actions. To me he personifies a human male I would consider trash - and this is the nicest word I can possible come up with for him. Any other word would be profane and there's really no reason to go there, is there? I can see how going there would be inflammatory and there is no reason to be inflammatory when making a point that is so easy to see. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Interesting news about the Wubbel's arrest.....the FBI is getting involved in the criminal probe of the events of that day. This will be an interesting test for Trump's FBI as if the FBI just lets everyone off the hook, it's really going to make Trump look awful and like a police apologist....and there will be yet more hatred and anger and hostility towards the police going forward. I don't read the future but my take is....I'm not sure how this is going to turn out, I'm really not. But I'm glad Trump's FBI is being put to the test. And in a case where the victim is so likeable by most segments of society, and is comfortable in front of the camera and is articulate and can get her point across in a civil kind of way. Methinks police around America may rue the name Alex Wubbels for some time......I just feel like changes in policing are coming, I really do. What's going on now is unsustainable and at this point anything the police do wrong anywhere in the US will be videoed and downloaded aggressively. The days of the police being above the law I believe are about over - interesting that this precipice should arrive during Trump's time in office......Rob

[LDAHL]

The problem as I've stated many times before is the history of police harassment in this neighborhood in Phoenix, AZ. Due to the history of police misbehavior, is it really a stretch that people afraid of the police would want life imprisonment for abuse of power while wearing the badge? For my part I find the acceptance of police brutality a very telling and scary thing - I can't and won't accept this from the police. But I do believe life imprisonment is a bit extreme - there are those who would not agree with this however.

I think part of the problem in this thread is that we really don't all live in the same country, and at this point I would not want a passport to an America where citizens auto-side with the police and actively make excuses for them in the light of damning video that clearly shows right and wrong. I just wouldn't have much in common with the citizens of such a country and they wouldn't have much in common with me. And this is such a huge issue to lower income people and it's only getting worse and growing and growing and growing.

I don't have all the answers and I can see where some takes of the 85006 might come across as extreme to those who don't live in this reality - that doesn't make the takes any less valid and real. It just means that you somehow avoided this reality for the time being although I'd never count on that to continue for the majority of Americans with the level of competition these days. Rob

I don't think a single poster here has advocated "the acceptance of police brutality". Issues like this cannot simply be reduced to being for you or against you. We do, in fact, inhabit the same country and the same reality, however much our perceptions and opinions may sometimes differ and however little you may like it. Your idea of justice clearly strikes many here as vengeance. I'm against theft, but I'm not for amputating thieves' hands. I'm against cops exceeding their authority, but I'm not for giving them 30-year sentences.

Questioning some of your more extreme statements isn't avoiding reality. It's embracing it.

[iris lilies]

In an odd coincidence, our Scottish cousin is being harrassed by "racist" and " victimizing scum" Austrian police. She is a tough girl and is riding her motercycle across Europe after the big family meetup in Switzerland last week that DH attended.

Guess bae's post about Austrians may be on target. And here, I was going to chide him about overstating...

I just thought her FB post was funny. She swears more than I do, haha.

ummm, be forwarned--language!

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1920&stc=1

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1919&stc=1

[ToomuchStuff]

Guess bae's post about Austrians may be on target. And here, I was going to chide him about overstating...



I believe he was stating that Austrian's send their trash to the showers or lock them up for the rest of their lives.