What's your take on Betsy DeVos overturning Title 9 policies at US universities?

[gimmethesimplelife]

OK I have a bit of a stunner for one and all here given my status as a hard core liberal here.....ready? I'm all for Ms. DeVos overturning the Title 9 policies - in fact I applaud her in doing so and believe that this may be the one good thing that comes from the Trump administration.

My reason? To me it's non-excusable that young men in a university setting are denied due process - the right to present evidence supporting innocence, the right to present witnesses - the right in general to defend themselves. To many young men's lives have been ruined on the mere word of a woman, with the young man having no right to defend himself from said accusation.

To the ladies here, I am no rape apologist. Rape is a serious crime and in cases where there is proof/evidence beyond a mere accusation, I am all for prosecution to the fullest extent of the law. I just need more than a mere accusation is all. Is this too much to ask for? The need for the right for young men to defend themselves and have the right to present evidence contrary to the accusation? Is this a country worth living in if young men are not worth this right, and if so, why should men live in the United States if a price tag of this citizenship is such vulnerability? How is this in their best interest(s)?

Furthermore, all that changes with the overturning of Title 9 policies is that young men will have the chance to defend themselves - women will still most certainly have the right to present claims of rape and the right to have these claims taken seriously and acted upon - just not accepted as complete truth before a man has the right to his day in court is all, which is how it should have been all along. I'd say this is a victory for men's rights and not a blow to women's rights as the right to present such claims is not hindered and the right to expect such claims to be acted upon legally is also not hindered.

Thoughts? Rob

[Miss Cellane]

What I don't understand is why the universities investigate on-campus sexual assault at all. Why aren't the police doing this?

If I were assaulted, I would not want inexperienced people who have a bias towards not giving the university a bad name investigating the crime. I'd want the police.

So my perfect solution would be to take the university or college out of the picture completely, and let trained law enforcement deal with the situation.

[LDAHL]

I think you're right twice in a row today. The constitutional right to due process should apply to everyone. That the federal Department of Education can send a "Dear Colleague" letter to universities basically authorizing them (even pushing them) to set up their own version of Sharia Law has been a stain on our national honor since its very beginning. If we make exceptions to the Bill of Rights in one case, are any of us really safe?

[bae]

My daughter is in college, this is her senior year.

She was shocked upon arrival her freshman year to be required to attend a seminar on the University's sexual assault/harassment policies. It was 30+ pages of complex nonsense, basically meant to direct all complaints/issues, no matter how serious or criminal, through peer/faculty/admin review boards. There was a single paragraph, buried deep, that suggested that, well, of course you could always just call 911 and get the police involved, but really, The University is the way to go.

My daughter got in a bit of trouble for suggesting that she was simply going to call janitorial services for cleaning up the mess, if anyone laid a hand on her without her permission, and that she intended to call the police first, and the university could talk with them once the police were done with the crime scene.

It was clear the whole process was meant to sweep things under the rug quietly.

[LDAHL]

My daughter is in college, this is her senior year.

She was shocked upon arrival her freshman year to be required to attend a seminar on the University's sexual assault/harassment policies. It was 30+ pages of complex nonsense, basically meant to direct all complaints/issues, no matter how serious or criminal, through peer/faculty/admin review boards. There was a single paragraph, buried deep, that suggested that, well, of course you could always just call 911 and get the police involved, but really, The University is the way to go.

My daughter got in a bit of trouble for suggesting that she was simply going to call janitorial services for cleaning up the mess, if anyone laid a hand on her without her permission, and that she intended to call the police first, and the university could talk with them once the police were done with the crime scene.

It was clear the whole process was meant to sweep things under the rug quietly.

Eric Bloodaxe would be proud.

[Williamsmith]

Most universities have a duly authorized campus police force with all the power to enforce criminal statutes. Many have criminal investigators on staff. Some are retired police officers with years of experience. All are beholden in some way to the college administration which usually means sweeping embarrassing incidents under the rug. Most of these administrations champion publicly for social enlightenment and most are hypocrites when the university stands to take one on the chin or a hit to its coffers. Which means all the students are truly at the mercy of the school they attend if they believe that the school will act in the students best interest. It will not. It will act in the best interest of administrators and board members.

The Pennsylvania State University has such a police force and it was entrusted with the investigation of the molestation of a child by a prominent university football coach. The campus detective was ordered by the director of campus police to drop the investigation. A slew of other children were raped by the coach who turned out to be a child predator.....all enabled by what I would describe as the good ole boys and girls network.

[Ultralight]

OK I have a bit of a stunner for one and all here given my status as a hard core liberal here.....ready? I'm all for Ms. DeVos overturning the Title 9 policies - in fact I applaud her in doing so and believe that this may be the one good thing that comes from the Trump administration.

My reason? To me it's non-excusable that young men in a university setting are denied due process - the right to present evidence supporting innocence, the right to present witnesses - the right in general to defend themselves. To many young men's lives have been ruined on the mere word of a woman, with the young man having no right to defend himself from said accusation.

To the ladies here, I am no rape apologist. Rape is a serious crime and in cases where there is proof/evidence beyond a mere accusation, I am all for prosecution to the fullest extent of the law. I just need more than a mere accusation is all. Is this too much to ask for? The need for the right for young men to defend themselves and have the right to present evidence contrary to the accusation? Is this a country worth living in if young men are not worth this right, and if so, why should men live in the United States if a price tag of this citizenship is such vulnerability? How is this in their best interest(s)?

Furthermore, all that changes with the overturning of Title 9 policies is that young men will have the chance to defend themselves - women will still most certainly have the right to present claims of rape and the right to have these claims taken seriously and acted upon - just not accepted as complete truth before a man has the right to his day in court is all, which is how it should have been all along. I'd say this is a victory for men's rights and not a blow to women's rights as the right to present such claims is not hindered and the right to expect such claims to be acted upon legally is also not hindered.

Thoughts? Rob

Are you a Men's Rights Activist? Not very fashionable, Rob!

[gimmethesimplelife]

Are you a Men's Rights Activist? Not very fashionable, Rob!Sort of yes and sort of no. I started becoming aware of men's rights issues when I started hanging around some straight men I went to high school with that have turned out to be incredibly cool in their middle age and I've kept in touch with. I had no real idea before this what straight men actually went through and this is a biggie for me - this denial of due process to young men accused of rape. This for me is up there with the soul depleting/soul crushing lack of socialized medicine in this country - it's a huge deal. So I'm not really going to protests and such for men's rights but I will make phone calls and send off emails for the cause.

I'll also be a little kinder to Trump if Betsy DeVos does indeed overturn the Title 9 policies of the Obama era - not a day goes by that I don't miss the Obama years but this Title 9 fiasco was not the Obama Administration's finest hour, to put it mildly, and if taking a Conservative stance on this issue is the way towards regaining basic human rights for men in this situation, so be it - I am not above doing so in the Name Of Human Rights. Rob

[creaker]

It was clear the whole process was meant to sweep things under the rug quietly.

I think this sums it up perfectly.

[freshstart]

my DD just went off to college and got the seminar on rape and calling campus police. I told her no, you call 911 and she agreed. I think Betsy Devos is out of her ever loving mind on this.

[Tybee]

Just a quick reminder, men get raped, too.
And yeah, call 911. When I did a rape response thing when we lived in college town, the campus police were "real police" and so it was kind of simultaneous--the protocol was exactly what it would be anywhere else, including going to the hospital for a rape kit.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Just a quick reminder, men get raped, too.
And yeah, call 911. When I did a rape response thing when we lived in college town, the campus police were "real police" and so it was kind of simultaneous--the protocol was exactly what it would be anywhere else, including going to the hospital for a rape kit.Thank You....yes indeed men do get raped, too. And I believe it's wise to bypass the system and to call 911, yes......Rob

PS....Something that has amazed me regarding feminists and feminism is that there are some feminists out there insisting that it's OK that young men are denied due process when confronted with a rape claim (and this is coming from someone who has auto-sided with feminism for much of his life) and that their word should be enough to put a man away with no evidence or proof necessary. I am personally starting to feel a bit uncomfortable around women I don't know or that I don't meet through people I already know - and this is coming from a 100% gay man with no ulterior motives as to the opposite sex whatsoever - due to the fact that there are some women who are down with men being denied due process and believing that their mere words trumps (no word play intended here, Donald Trump has no direct bearing on my point here) any requirement/legal need for proof or evidence to back up their claim before consequences of some sort are doled out to a man.

I can only imagine how straight men must feel, and I also know several straight men, a few quite successful, former athletes who are able to compete in turbo charged capitalism much better than I ever will be able to - that have given up on women with the above being one of the big reasons - it's just too risky for them under the current legal and social climate. They tell me they are also advising their sons to put themselves and their finances first and to avoid women. I find all of this remarkable, absolutely remarkable, as when I was growing up there was so much pressure on young men especially to "get places" with women - I was immune from this for obvious reasons but not from the fall out for not being able to "get places". Now there is pressure on young men to avoid women to stay out of jail/prison based on a woman's mere word - it's a very different world now in terms of male/female relations and I'm glad, and I mean this in a non-snarky way, 100% - that I'm gay. I feel as if I've been given a free pass to some degree to avoid this insanity, though even as a gay man I realize I'm not 100% immune. Rob

[iris lilies]

Thank You....yes indeed men do get raped, too. And I believe it's wise to bypass the system and to call 911, yes......Rob

PS....Something that has amazed me regarding feminists and feminism is that there are some feminists out there insisting that it's OK that young men are denied due process when confronted with a rape claim (and this is coming from someone who has auto-sided with feminism for much of his life) and that their word should be enough to put a man away with no evidence or proof necessary. I am personally starting to feel a bit uncomfortable around women I don't know or that I don't meet through people I already know - and this is coming from a 100% gay man with no ulterior motives as to the opposite sex whatsoever - due to the fact that there are some women who are down with men being denied due process and believing that their mere words trumps (no word play intended here, Donald Trump has no direct bearing on my point here) any requirement/legal need for proof or evidence to back up their claim before consequences of some sort are doled out to a man.

I can only imagine how straight men must feel, and I also know several straight men, a few quite successful, former athletes who are able to compete in turbo charged capitalism much better than I ever will be able to - that have given up on women with the above being one of the big reasons - it's just too risky for them under the current legal and social climate. They tell me they are also advising their sons to put themselves and their finances first and to avoid women. I find all of this remarkable, absolutely remarkable, as when I was growing up there was so much pressure on young men especially to "get places" with women - I was immune from this for obvious reasons but not from the fall out for not being able to "get places". Now there is pressure on young men to avoid women to stay out of jail/prison based on a woman's mere word - it's a very different world now in terms of male/female relations and I'm glad, and I mean this in a non-snarky way, 100% - that I'm gay. I feel as if I've been given a free pass to some degree to avoid this insanity, though even as a gay man I realize I'm not 100% immune. Rob

Just because some people call themselves "feminist" doesnt really mean they are. Just like some people who consider themselves victims are not necessarily that. But in the world of victim politics, it is a fierce fight identifying who is the most victimized.

There have always been a few radical feminist ideas out there that are wacko, and if you are now just finding some of them then you have not been paying attention. But if you focus, as you tend to do, on one tiny aspect of the world and blow that up into Rob's Enlightenment of Rightous Anger, you are, I guess, doing what makes you happy which is getting all upset about not much. So, congratulations (?)

[gimmethesimplelife]

Just because some people call themselves "feminist" doesnt really mean they are. Just like some people who consider themselves victims are not necessarily that. But in the world of victim politics, it is a fierce fight identifying who is the most victimized.

There have always been a few radical feminist ideas out there that are wacko, and if you are now just finding some of them then you have not been paying attention. But if you focus, as you tend to do, on one tiny aspect of the world and blow that up into Rob's Enlightenment of Rightous Anger, you are, I guess, doing what makes you happy which is getting all upset about not much. So, congratulations (?)? Not following you here, IL, sorry. I have to take off for the Convention Center now - first shift as a site supervisor for lunch today but I will be being observed. At any rate, my point is that I don't have time to give you an in depth reply. What I will say, and this has been absolutely fascinating for me as a gay man to witness and observe - is that there are a growing number of men giving up on women due to the political and social climate, the meat grinder of anti-male divorce and family law courts, and also the fact that a woman can pick up the phone, call the police with any lie she cares to tell about a man, and the man gets arrested based on the mere word of a woman. Were I straight, I would be in permanent avoidance mode with the opposite sex, too - just as a matter of mere survival in today's anti-male political and social climate. I don't believe all woman are problematic by any means but.......it's dangerous for men out there and I can see why so many young men have given up on women. Makes perfect sense to me. Rob

[iris lilies]

? Not following you here, IL, sorry. I have to take off for the Convention Center now - first shift as a site supervisor for lunch today but I will be being observed. At any rate, my point is that I don't have time to give you an in depth reply. What I will say, and this has been absolutely fascinating for me as a gay man to witness and observe - is that there are a growing number of men giving up on women due to the political and social climate, the meat grinder of anti-male divorce and family law courts, and also the fact that a woman can pick up the phone, call the police with any lie she cares to tell about a man, and the man gets arrested based on the mere word of a woman. Were I straight, I would be in permanent avoidance mode with the opposite sex, too - just as a matter of mere survival in today's anti-male political and social climate. I don't believe all woman are problematic by any means but.......it's dangerous for men out there and I can see why so many young men have given up on women. Makes perfect sense to me. Rob

Hunh, well then. Women are just pretty shitty, I guess.

I wonder how your fangirls here are gonna take this newly awakened, anti-feminist Rob?

[Miss Cellane]

Rob, I consider myself a feminist. And I think men should have the due process of law. As should women.

Which is probably a large part of why I think calling the police instead of campus security is what should happen in terms of sexual assault on campuses.

However, if the tightening up of rape laws makes straight men in general think more about their relationships with women and what might happen if they choose to have sex with a non-consenting woman or a woman who at that point cannot give consent--I think that is a huge step forward. For far too long, women have had to defend themselves when they press rape charges--defend how they act, what they were wearing, if they had had anything to drink, what their behavior was years ago (Oh, you had a one night stand 10 years ago, so you are a slut and sleep around, so how was this rape since clearly you are a fallen woman and not deserving of the protection of the law--I'm exaggerating, but not by much).

The victim of a robbery does not have to defend why they choose to live in an expensive neighborhood, drive luxury cars, wear gold and diamond jewelry, have a maid, a huge tv, valuable artwork etc. It's accepted that the robber did something wrong when they entered the house and stole stuff.

It does seem, from your account, that some men are going overboard on this. Just as a lot of men did when the reality of sexual harassment hit the workplace--I remember my father being afraid to say "Hello" to women at work, for fear it would be misunderstood. But that pressure to "get places" with women--it would be good if that disappeared from our culture. At least, it would be good for women in general. No clue what it would do to the men.

"No means no." And when someone can't say yes or no, no is the auto-default. It's not that hard to figure out. And if you aren't sure, the safest thing to do is nothing.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Hunh, well then. Women are just pretty shitty, I guess.

I wonder how your fangirls here are gonna take this newly awakened, anti-feminist Rob?Said on my way out the door - I don't believe all women are shitty, IL. Cases in point: My boss at the temp service who offered me a chance at promotion, My Mother who has always been decent, my Cousin who I co-own a house with - the numerous hard working and kindly, decent Hispanic women in the 85006 and elsewhere all across America....certainly I don't wish to paint all women with a broad brush. However, there are women out there that men need to be careful of - women who will invent a rape claim, women who will pick up the phone and call the police and lie about a man to have him arrested, women who will destroy a man as sport in divorce/family law court (at this point can you believe there is not a single man past the age of 22 or so that has not witnessed this happen to another man in his life in some capacity? Father, uncle, brother, friend's father, etc.)......I'm not saying all women are evil....what I am saying is that the laws are titled towards women and against men these days and there are some women out there who will take advantage of this - and some won't, I'll give you that. Even my 75 year old Mother is stunned at what some women have become, she calls them gold diggers.....and the way family court law and divorce court laws are set up, such does seem encouraged. I don't know how to change this other than walking away from the table, which in my case as a gay man is no great loss. I'm talking of men that would be in this game typically.

And I'm not seeing that I have a fan base, IL. Typically I eventually rub everyone the wrong way - I'm just like that. Very real and very opinionated and very much my own person based on what my life has taught me. And I've got to get going and get my bus downtown, great day to you......Rob

[Lainey]

I don't understand the "denied their due process" statement. There was never a process on any college campus where an accused does not get to put up a defense and have their say in some kind of forum. The problem was that colleges all handled these accusations very differently.

In some colleges, if the claim was against a student athlete, then the coach (!) was the one who "handled it."
In some colleges, if the rape happened just off-campus, the school did not become involved at all but the victim was still required to see his or her attacker every day on campus, and sometimes even attend classes with them. This is where Title IX comes in: it provides civil rights protection for a student to get their education. You can read about the many victims who simply quit school because they felt unsafe in that school knowing their attacker was still walking around campus unrestricted.
(the other reason the schools were uninvolved in off-campus rapes because they are required to report these crimes which then become public knowledge. No parent wants to send their student to a college where the violence statistics are high; thus, another reason to hide and/or downplay as much of this as possible.)

Do some people file false reports? Yes. Do some people get attacked and never file a report? Sadly, yes, and that number is much higher than the number of false reports.

For the record I am in favor of reporting all personal violence type crime to the full-fledged police department, whether they are on campus (as could be in a large urban campus) or in the municipal jurisdiction. There just needs to be a single standard across all college campuses on the process.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, I consider myself a feminist. And I think men should have the due process of law. As should women.

Which is probably a large part of why I think calling the police instead of campus security is what should happen in terms of sexual assault on campuses.

However, if the tightening up of rape laws makes straight men in general think more about their relationships with women and what might happen if they choose to have sex with a non-consenting woman or a woman who at that point cannot give consent--I think that is a huge step forward. For far too long, women have had to defend themselves when they press rape charges--defend how they act, what they were wearing, if they had had anything to drink, what their behavior was years ago (Oh, you had a one night stand 10 years ago, so you are a slut and sleep around, so how was this rape since clearly you are a fallen woman and not deserving of the protection of the law--I'm exaggerating, but not by much).

The victim of a robbery does not have to defend why they choose to live in an expensive neighborhood, drive luxury cars, wear gold and diamond jewelry, have a maid, a huge tv, valuable artwork etc. It's accepted that the robber did something wrong when they entered the house and stole stuff.

It does seem, from your account, that some men are going overboard on this. Just as a lot of men did when the reality of sexual harassment hit the workplace--I remember my father being afraid to say "Hello" to women at work, for fear it would be misunderstood. But that pressure to "get places" with women--it would be good if that disappeared from our culture. At least, it would be good for women in general. No clue what it would do to the men.

"No means no." And when someone can't say yes or no, no is the auto-default. It's not that hard to figure out. And if you aren't sure, the safest thing to do is nothing.Said from my smartphone with small keys so please excuse any typos folks, I'm rushing to the bus stop......Just had to say Miss Celane that I personally find your take reasonable. You had me at men deserve due process. That's all I ask for - this right. And I agree with you that No Means No and that if men don't understand that by now.....that's on the particular man too dense to get this. So I'm on your page thus far, k? What do we do about women, however, who concoct tales of rapes that later are proven to be untrue? (such as the case of the African American footplayer player released after six years in prison as his accuser was caught in her lie by admitting her lie on Facebook?) The Rolling Stone article about rape on an American university that they later had to humiliatingly retract as the story was found to be BS? Bus coming, will be back......ok. My quick point here is that this street goes two ways these days and I'm getting the sense (ladies, feel free to correct me if I wrong here....and I'm safe to correct as I don't have skin in this game as it were, I'm just a fascinated observer) that there are women ABSOLUTELY STUNNED that there would be any male blockback towards these issues....stunned that men would shun them out of fear of risk, stunned that men would walk away from the table disinterested, just stunned that men would not auto-yield.

Ladies, I can tell you of four very successful and as a gay man, I can vouch that they are attractive for their age, 50 - 51 year old straight men who have perma-given up on women due to what they perceive to be women as being too risky, especially since they have an asset base now and not enough time to recreate such if lost in divorce/family law courts. And this is not all that rare of take on male/female relationships these days, either. Once again, this street goes two ways.

Though one last comment? Given that this street goes two ways, women (I grant you'all this) do have points and validity in their comments, too......what a mess male/female relations have become these days, though....personally I wonder if we are doomed to be like Japan where men and women have mostly given up on one another? Google herbivore men Japan if you are not familiar with the concept and are interested.....gotta go, good day to all.....Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

Men raise their kids to avoid women (according to Rob, I'm not saying it's widespread) which is basically a form of child abuse (or we can soft peddle it and say bad parenting at least for which actually is undeniable), but since anyone can be a parent all kind of whack a doodles who aren't even trying to do right by their kids are parents. They need to use their kids to enact their own drama (really they need therapy but for whatever reason they aren't getting it), can you say bad parenting? I don't mean kids that are gay (who don't need to be pushed to "become hetero"), asexual, or the one off kid that would choose celibacy - I can accept genetics and/or adult choice for whatever sex life one wants when when they actually are so and not just parental brainwashing - I just mean the vast majority of boys. Of course most kids raised so will not ultimately listen to their whack a doodle parents because they would rather have a relationship.

[Tybee]

I was trying to stay away from this post of yours, Rob, but then you replied to mine again and repeated what you said earlier. I am actually shocked and horrified by your posts here, and suggest that things might go better if you stopped repeating,
"the mere word of a woman."
I mean seriously, listen to what you are saying here.
Would you keep repeating,
"on the mere word of a gay man"?
I'm really shocked at what you are saying. You are obviously free to say whatever you want, but I find it really repellant, and it surprises me that you are saying these things, as I really value your opinions and what you say.
So now I'll bow out, and thanks for listening.

[iris lilies]

I was trying to stay away from this post of yours, Rob, but then you replied to mine again and repeated what you said earlier. I am actually shocked and horrified by your posts here, and suggest that things might go better if you stopped repeating,
"the mere word of a woman."
I mean seriously, listen to what you are saying here.
Would you keep repeating,
"on the mere word of a gay man"?
I'm really shocked at what you are saying. You are obviously free to say whatever you want, but I find it really repellant, and it surprises me that you are saying these things, as I really value your opinions and what you say.
So now I'll bow out, and thanks for listening.
Don't forget that he feels uncomfortable in the presence of most women now, since most women in his daily dealings will not meet his criteria of knowing them personally or through friends.

So all women in the crowds of people on the bus, in the store, in the dinners he serves and etc. are frightening to him.

Holy Uncalled for Intolerance, batman!

[gimmethesimplelife]

I was trying to stay away from this post of yours, Rob, but then you replied to mine again and repeated what you said earlier. I am actually shocked and horrified by your posts here, and suggest that things might go better if you stopped repeating,
"the mere word of a woman."
I mean seriously, listen to what you are saying here.
Would you keep repeating,
"on the mere word of a gay man"?
I'm really shocked at what you are saying. You are obviously free to say whatever you want, but I find it really repellant, and it surprises me that you are saying these things, as I really value your opinions and what you say.
So now I'll bow out, and thanks for listening.Tybee, hi!

I do not mean to offend, that was not the purpose of this thread, so for that I'm sorry if you are upset.

There are cases though of women who have filed false reports against men and of women who have called the police on men for no justifiable reason and told the police a lie/lies to get a man arrested - with no consequences for the woman when she's been caught having lied. This is what I mean by "the mere word of a woman" - I may be evil incarnate here and if so, I can accept this - I need proof due to this happening much more often than just once. Certainly the woman's word should be listened to and certainly taken seriously - I am not advocating for otherwise - I only demand due process for men and proof of any allegation from a woman raising the allegation. Is this too much to ask for, and to be fair, if your answer is that this is indeed too much to ask for, I won't hold it against you. I will however ask - is this a price tag any man should be willing to pay for holding this citizenship, and if so, why? What's in it for a given man if this is to be a price tag of holding US citizenship? I'm curious as to your and any other ladies answers here and I promise not to bash - seriously, I won't - as I said before on this one I am a fascinated observer given that I am a gay man and not in this game.

To answer what you have brought up - about the "mere word of a gay man" - as a gay man I'd expect the requirement of providing proof of any allegation I bring forward - I personally consider that a given before I'd even raise an allegation - unless it were something stratospheric like attempted murder. This is why I bring up the "on the mere word of" rhetoric.

And I'm not bashing all women here, either, please let me make that clear. There are many such cases of this out there, though, and it's something that men are discussing both amongst themselves and online now in great numbers. Until some changes are made - and Ms. DeVos seems to be heading down this path, ironically to me as a Conservative, but at this point I don't care where basic rights for men come from - this issue isn't going to go away. Especially since more and more men are discussing this amongst themselves online as I said. Rob

PS And you get to disagree with me if that's your take....that's totally cool. This street does go two ways and even though I may be taking a pro-male stance here, I get that this street goes two ways.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Don't forget that he feels uncomfortable in the presence of most women now, since most women in his daily dealings will not meet his criteria of knowing them personally or through friends.

So all women in the crowds of people on the bus, in the store, in the dinners he serves and etc. are frightening to him.

Holy Uncalled for Intolerance, batman!IL....I don't live in a cave and roughly half the human race is comprised of women...obviously I have to communicate/have dealings of some sort with women to live in society. What I mean is, at work now I am going to be even more work related and while I will not be rude or hostile to any new women I may meet, I will be more on guard than I was before, at least initially. I don't believe in not giving people chances, and more and more men are pulling this due to the political and legal climate men currently face - but it will take longer to see my good and to get to know me now, and that's really sad.....but men are at risk of false accusations/claims and the law is stacked against men these days, not pleasant but yet it is reality....much as in the past the law was stacked against women. The pendulum has swung the other way and you really can't blame men for thinking in terms of self protection with strangers given the current givens. That's just being an adult and seeing things as they currently are. And I don't think Donald Trump is going to change much on this as some men's activists believe.....though Ms. DeVos overturning Title 9 will spare some young men's futures and it's better than nothing. Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

It's all ridiculously biased anyway, so Rob has talked to some men who feel they are victimized, perhaps in some cases this is even true, I also suspect a great deal of embellishment and telling the story from their side (I mean anyone male or female being bitter and even sometimes biased against the opposite sex after a divorce would hardly be news for anyone). What would the women on the other side of it say I wonder. And how many female rape victims has he also had long discussions with (although I doubt they are all eager to advertise or talk about it)? How many actual self-professed feminists has he talked to? I don't vouch for them, as it's not a crowd I have spent much time with, though I have a feeling Rob would find them quite agreeable for the most part actually.

Rob is all for men raising their sons to avoid women I guess, but if an actual female rape victim raised her daughters to avoid men entirely it would of course be considered not exactly good parenting, even though of course she has her real reasons. So what most mothers would do and have always done is raise their daughters to be aware, if you are meeting a guy for a blind date meet in a public place, be careful with getting drunk, be a bit careful who you take home, don't get involved with jerks and so on and so forth. Some women have turned to lesbianism out of perceiving males as hostile to them of course (they are at least luckier if they can do this than all those men rejecting relationships entirely).

Using the term golddigger is itself pretty sexist in how it is used as it's mostly just used to smear women just for being women pretty much (may as well just call them a c*nt). While anyone might agree that taking someone to court on false charges in unjust, the term is just as readily used for a woman who wants kids and wants a guy who is financially stable to marry. That's why the term itself ought to be discarded entirely, call women who take men to court on false charges unjust, but leave that term in the garbage bin where it belongs.

P.S. got any PROOF that more men are falsely accused than women raped for whom the attacker NEVER gets charged? Because otherwise, ridiculous bias like I said.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It's all ridiculously biased anyway, so Rob has talked to some men who feel they are victimized, perhaps in some cases this is even true, I also suspect a great deal of embellishment and telling the story from their side (I mean anyone male or female being bitter and even sometimes biased against the opposite sex after a divorce would hardly be news for anyone). What would the women on the other side of it say I wonder. And how many female rape victims has he also had long discussions with (although I doubt they are all eager to advertise or talk about it)? How many actual self-professed feminists has he talked to? I don't vouch for them, as it's not a crowd I have spent much time with, though I have a feeling Rob would find them quite agreeable for the most part actually.

Rob is all for men raising their sons to avoid women I guess, but if an actual female rape victim raised her daughters to avoid men entirely it would of course be considered not exactly fair even though of course she has her real reasons. So what most mothers would do and have always done is raise their daughters to be aware, if you are meeting a guy for a blind date meet in a public place, be careful with getting drunk, be a bit careful who you take home, don't get involved with jerks and so on and so forth. Some women have turned to lesbianism out of perceiving males as hostile to them of course (they are at least luckier if they can do this than all those men rejecting relationships entirely).

Using the term golddigger is itself pretty sexist in how it is used as it's mostly just used to smear women just for being women pretty much (may as well just call them a c*nt). While anyone might agree that taking someone to court on false charges in unjust, the term is just as readily used for a woman who wants kids and wants a guy who is financially stable to marry. That's why the term itself ought to be discarded entirely, call women who take men to court on false charges unjust, but leave that term in the garbage bin where it belongs.

P.S. got any proof that more men are falsely accused than women raped for whom the attackers NEVER get charged?ANM, I'm sorry if I did not make myself clear. I am NOT for fathers to raise their sons to avoid women - I only brought this up as I know men who are doing this and I don't know if the ladies here (and to be fair other men here, too) are even aware that this is going on out there. Women are roughly 1/2 the planet's population - how practical is it for a man to raise his son to avoid 1/2 the population? I should have been more clear - these men are raising their sons to avoid relationships and most especially marriage, not so much to avoid everyday chit chat or live in a cave and never speak to a woman. If my post came across as the latter, I'm sorry I was not more clear. Rob

[bae]

There's a lot of unpacking to do here I see...

[iris lilies]

IL....I don't live in a cave and roughly half the human race is comprised of women...obviously I have to communicate/have dealings of some sort with women to live in society. What I mean is, at work now I am going to be even more work related and while I will not be rude or hostile to any new women I may meet, I will be more on guard than I was before, at least initially. I don't believe in not giving people chances, and more and more men are pulling this due to the political and legal climate men currently face - but it will take longer to see my good and to get to know me now, and that's really sad.....but men are at risk of false accusations/claims and the law is stacked against men these days, not pleasant but yet it is reality....much as in the past the law was stacked against women. The pendulum has swung the other way and you really can't blame men for thinking in terms of self protection with strangers given the current givens. That's just being an adult and seeing things as they currently are. And I don't think Donald Trump is going to change much on this as some men's activists believe.....though Ms. DeVos overturning Title 9 will spare some young men's futures and it's better than nothing. Rob

Whatever, you do you, Rob. I think the smart women will figure you out and what you are about.

[iris lilies]

There's a lot of unpacking to do here I see...
Really! Rich material. Too bad I have to go now and make cilantro sauce.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It's all ridiculously biased anyway, so Rob has talked to some men who feel they are victimized, perhaps in some cases this is even true, I also suspect a great deal of embellishment and telling the story from their side (I mean anyone male or female being bitter and even sometimes biased against the opposite sex after a divorce would hardly be news for anyone). What would the women on the other side of it say I wonder. And how many female rape victims has he also had long discussions with (although I doubt they are all eager to advertise or talk about it)? How many actual self-professed feminists has he talked to? I don't vouch for them, as it's not a crowd I have spent much time with, though I have a feeling Rob would find them quite agreeable for the most part actually.

Rob is all for men raising their sons to avoid women I guess, but if an actual female rape victim raised her daughters to avoid men entirely it would of course be considered not exactly good parenting, even though of course she has her real reasons. So what most mothers would do and have always done is raise their daughters to be aware, if you are meeting a guy for a blind date meet in a public place, be careful with getting drunk, be a bit careful who you take home, don't get involved with jerks and so on and so forth. Some women have turned to lesbianism out of perceiving males as hostile to them of course (they are at least luckier if they can do this than all those men rejecting relationships entirely).

Using the term golddigger is itself pretty sexist in how it is used as it's mostly just used to smear women just for being women pretty much (may as well just call them a c*nt). While anyone might agree that taking someone to court on false charges in unjust, the term is just as readily used for a woman who wants kids and wants a guy who is financially stable to marry. That's why the term itself ought to be discarded entirely, call women who take men to court on false charges unjust, but leave that term in the garbage bin where it belongs.

P.S. got any PROOF that more men are falsely accused than women raped for whom the attacker NEVER gets charged? Because otherwise, ridiculous bias like I said.I've just got a minute to post so hopefully there's not a lot of typos here - I never used the word golddigger, my 75 year old mother did, and in reference to other women - women younger than herself and her generation. To be fair, I have run across gay men looking for money in a potential partner and I would consider such guys golddiggers, too....this word for me could be applied to either gender. And I've got to go.....being called back. Laterz. Rob

[Williamsmith]

I have probably talked to more rape victims and men falsely accused than most. Statistics comparing actual rapes of women to false accusations against men are going to be inaccurate at best. There are a lot of variables going on. What most people think of as rape is just part of the problem. Sexual assault in general has many degrees and definitions, lots of legal statutes of limitations and reporting criteria and such a severe penalty that full blown convictions and sentences are limited by those factors.

I have dealt with everything from homicides involving rape, down to making lewd comments to coworkers. You can't make any generalization about it. For as many ways as there are to commit a rape....there are ways to falsely accuse another of the act. It boils down to how diligent an investigator is and sometimes how lucky. Most false accusations never get officially reported as such because the original report is that of a sexual assault and changing it requires opening up a new incident report with the victim listed as the suspect. It can be done but often the falsely accused is just happy it's over with and wants to just move on.

Many college related incidents involve alcohol or drugs. This muddies the water significantly. Date rape drugs that quickly leave the victim's system and delayed reporting often torpedos an investigation from the beginning. It's always an emotional nightmare and it was the last thing I wanted to hear at 2am when the phone rang. I much rather wanted to hear, possible homicide, suicide, robbery or accidental death.

[bae]

My department receives ongoing training on dealing with sexual assault cases, as we are often first on-scene. And some of our resources assist in the interview/rape kit process. And my mother, a nurse, works with the Domestic Violence/Sexual Assault Services organization. As a result, I have some visibility, county-wide, into our statistics. We pull somewhere between 1 and 2 dozen rape kits a year. This results in, on average, 0 prosecutions per year. In a county with a population of ~16000 permanent residents.

[gimmethesimplelife]

My department receives ongoing training on dealing with sexual assault cases, as we are often first on-scene. And some of our resources assist in the interview/rape kit process. And my mother, a nurse, works with the Domestic Violence/Sexual Assault Services organization. As a result, I have some visibility, county-wide, into our statistics. We pull somewhere between 1 and 2 dozen rape kits a year. This results in, on average, 0 prosecutions per year. In a county with a population of ~16000 permanent residents.Just curious, why no prosecutions? I believe you take your role very seriously - a compliment, no snark here - so I'm sure you are doing everything by the book. Is it that hard to get evidence to stick? I honestly have no idea on this one and am only asking.......Rob