Bernie Sanders/Single Payer Plan [Archive]

gimmethesimplelife

9-13-17, 10:01am

I understand that Bernie Sanders is about to introduce a proposal for Single Payer Health Care in the US. Now this time I'm not all excited because this being the US, I can't see the plan actually happening....too many interests along the way would block such as they cash in on the lack of human rights/low quality of life in the US.

But the wonderful thing is that these discussions are happening and more and more people are offshoring their health care and going forward, more and more of us are not going to have any other realistic option but to offshore our health care.....the costs are simply getting too high to do otherwise. So some good is coming of Sander's proposal - more awareness of the offshoring of health care out of the US option. It's better than nothing and a nod towards human rights, and more people becoming aware that US health care works against them and not for them. Rob

iris lilies

9-13-17, 10:08am

You mean he is introducing it in the
senate?

I expect that to go as far as Rand Pauls's annual "balance the budget" proposal, or his sit in last week to end funding for Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

ToomuchStuff

9-13-17, 10:38am

He was on one of those late night talk shows the other night. (it was in the Trending section of Youtube)
It was a push to get Trump to support medicare for all. (bipartisan) Without that, I expect it will be tabled quickly.

Williamsmith

9-13-17, 11:07am

As soon as the last generation that has good private health care gets too old to matter anymore. We will have it.

Alan

9-13-17, 11:15am

I think the time is not yet right for Bernie and his crew to go full socialist. He doesn't have a plan to pay for it, making it no different than the various state initiatives in California, Vermont and Colorado that failed once ideology met reality.

JaneV2.0

9-13-17, 11:18am

dmc

9-13-17, 11:31am

Health "care" in this country costs twice as much here as it does in comparable countries, with mediocre outcomes. It's far past time to do something about this, but I don't hold out much hope, considering who's in charge.

You are correct that healthcare cost are too high. Many confuse the cost of healthcare to what they personally pay. We need to get the actual root cost down, not just get government to pick up the tab for some.

catherine

9-13-17, 11:45am

Health "care" in this country costs twice as much here as it does in comparable countries, with mediocre outcomes. It's far past time to do something about this, but I don't hold out much hope, considering who's in charge.

+1

I think the time is not yet right for Bernie and his crew to go full socialist. He doesn't have a plan to pay for it,

This isn't full socialist, unless you consider these countries that have national healthcare to be full socialist (in green):

1938
Source: The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/heres-a-map-of-the-countries-that-provide-universal-health-care-americas-still-not-on-it/259153/)

Medicare for all would:

1) cut out the middlemen and bean counters who usurp the freedom of medical professionals.
2) establish true value rather than "what the market will bear" (not relevant in a situation where no one person has to bear the expenses)
3) encourage better cost transparency
4) streamline services, saving doctors a ton of money on staff
5) enable a more consistent database minimizing treatment redundancy
6) establish quality controls and better monitoring

How to pay for it? Raise taxes. But consider that those increased taxes that I would pay would be more than offset by the savings I would achieve by not paying into a insurance system with its fractionated, profit-oriented stakeholders.

Again I ask--why are the people in France and Denmark so happy with their healthcare system? Why are we so frustrated by ours?

iris lilies

9-13-17, 12:20pm

Health "care" in this country costs twice as much here as it does in comparable countries, with mediocre outcomes. It's far past time to do something about this, but I don't hold out much hope, considering who's in charge.

In Romania the true cost for healthcare isnt measured. Our wonderful guide (who I will probably talk about excessively, he was such a doll!) made it clear that in Romania, when one goes into a hospital, one is expected to pay hundreds of dollars out-of-pocket directly hospital staff who care for a patient.

so for those great European "average" costs of healthcare, gotta remove Romania from the arithmetic mean. Makes me wonder how widespread that practice is, and it is probably not rare among former communist countries with poorly administered social services.

creaker

9-13-17, 1:28pm

As always the devil is in the details - just because single payer is implemented well elsewhere doesn't mean they would implement it well here.

My nightmare scenario is (especially with our current set of electees) that they would implement a single payer that is horrible for consumers - and gut current Medicare and Medicaid to match it. And again the primary focus would not be healthcare but glomming together enough money for massive tax cuts for the wealthy.

Baldilocks

9-13-17, 4:05pm

If you want good health care, take care of your self. Eat right (let thy food be thy medicine), exercise, don't drink, don't smoke and stop eating sugar. Do you ever listen to the side effects of the prescriptions the medical profession wants us to take. Jesus is my primary physician, all the rest of them are just practicing.

Ultralight

9-13-17, 5:00pm

Bernie is the best!

bae

9-13-17, 5:43pm

He doesn't have a plan to pay for it, making it no different than the various state initiatives in California, Vermont and Colorado that failed once ideology met reality.

I was puzzled by this. If California, one of our wealthiest states with a vibrant economy and a good population base, couldn't afford to do it individually, how then would the country as a whole be able to afford it?

Ultralight

9-13-17, 5:57pm

Just gotta tax rich people quite a bit more, then tax the middle class just a wee bit more. Then make a Medicare for all situation.

This ain't no big mystery. Other nations do this quite successfully.

Ultralight

9-13-17, 6:00pm

Or we could cut the military budget by half, pay for medicare for all with that. And we'd still be able to be The World Police.

Alan

9-13-17, 6:01pm

I was puzzled by this. If California, one of our wealthiest states with a vibrant economy and a good population base, couldn't afford to do it individually, how then would the country as a whole be able to afford it?I think the entire enterprise is based upon the principle of 'take it from bae', while the reality is there aren't enough bae's around to seal the deal.

Ultralight

9-13-17, 6:03pm

I think the entire enterprise is based upon the principle of 'take it from bae', while the reality is there aren't enough bae's around to seal the deal.

There aren't? Then how do all the other 30+ nations do it?
Does Canada have more bae types? Sweden? Australia?

Cut the crap here. You know this is not about money. It is about will and ideology. Just own up to this. We'll have a more mature debate this way.

ApatheticNoMore

9-13-17, 6:06pm

the problem with just California doing it isn't necessarily that they couldn't afford it for those who currently reside in California (and actually the estimates were they COULD afford it of course, it didn't fail because of affordability but just because the state legislature voted it down). A potential problem is though that people from other states would flock to California or wherever such a state plan was passed unless you have pretty strict residency requirements (lived somewhere many years at least). Of course California also doesn't have the ability to create money like the Fed gov does.

ApatheticNoMore

9-13-17, 6:13pm

Cut the crap here. You know this is not about money. It is about will and ideology. Just own up to this

it's about money to the extent that basic costs at present may very well be too high, but the other nations do control this (and with better lifespans), basically just don't want to pass a plan that doesn't take costs seriously is all.

Alan

9-13-17, 6:13pm

Cut the crap here. You know this is not about money.Sure it is. If we take the example of California, they discovered that their single payer health care initiative would impose an annual cost roughly double their annual budget. Now, their graduated state income tax schedule averages roughly 9 to 10% per payor. In order to pay for the scheme, that would have to be increased to approximately 27 to 30%. They realized that their citizens didn't have the will or strong enough ideology to support it, ergo, the initiative failed.

Then how do all the other 30+ nations do it? By force.

Just own up to this. We'll have a more mature debate this way. A mature debate requires numbers and other real world effects. I'll be interested to hear your take on how the money is procured and what effects it will have on the economy.

Williamsmith

9-13-17, 6:26pm

It is simple really. The ones with the most influence make the rules. The ones that make the rules have really good health care now. The ones with really good healthcare now aren't going to allow that to change by adopting a universal healthcare approach because it will compromise the quality of their own healthcare. That is the way it will be until the ones with the most influence are the ones with crappy healthcare. Time will bring that about.

iris lilies

9-13-17, 6:28pm

There aren't? Then how do all the other 30+ nations do it?
Does Canada have more bae types? Sweden? Australia?

Cut the crap here. You know this is not about money. It is about will and ideology. Just own up to this. We'll have a more mature debate this way.

For one thing, The "It" they are doing is not, in most cses, the "it" or health care that our citizens think they deserve. It is a lsser product.

For me it would be fine. For many many Americans, no--they deserve higher care, or so they thnk. That is why bae hets to pay for it.

And of course it is a out mmey. For gods sake, the last thing we need is another huge program to add to deficit spending. If you all balance the budget, I might be ok with single payer even if bae pays a lot more.

bae

9-13-17, 6:43pm

I think the entire enterprise is based upon the principle of 'take it from bae', while the reality is there aren't enough bae's around to seal the deal.

I left California nearly 20 years ago, because they were already taking too much from me. Took all my capital too.

bae

9-13-17, 6:47pm

For one thing, The "It" they are doing is not, in most cses, the "it" or health care that our citizens think they deserve. It is a lsser product.

For me it would be fine.

I don't need the full-meal-deal US-level healthcare setup.

I'd be fine with Canadian or Icelandic or Norwegian or Finnish healthcare. UK health care, maybe not.

bae

9-13-17, 6:48pm

If you all balance the budget, I might be ok with single payer even if bae pays a lot more.

bae changed his lifestyle and investment strategy decades ago, so that bae has very little actual income.

This was mostly so that Alan could pay for bae's healthcare. We got another free ride this year, just like last year. Thanks Alan!

Yppej

9-13-17, 6:52pm

more and more people are offshoring their health care and going forward, more and more of us are not going to have any other realistic option but to offshore

This year my employer introduced an international prescription plan so people can get their meds from Canada.

Ultralight

9-13-17, 7:00pm

Lots of panties in a bunch on this thread!

bae

9-13-17, 7:06pm

Lots of panties in a bunch on this thread!

Gotta be careful with that, it can lead to trouble. If so, I recommend Clotrimazole cream, it's over-the-counter now.

Alan

9-13-17, 7:18pm

Lots of panties in a bunch on this thread!
Is that an example of "mature debate"?

Ultralight

9-13-17, 7:24pm

Gotta be careful with that, it can lead to trouble. If so, I recommend Clotrimazole cream, it's over-the-counter now.
:devil:

Alan

9-13-17, 7:55pm

bae changed his lifestyle and investment strategy decades ago, so that bae has very little actual income.

This was mostly so that Alan could pay for bae's healthcare. We got another free ride this year, just like last year. Thanks Alan!
I'm preparing to do the same any day now. Looking forward to Ultralite paying for mine.

Ultralight

9-13-17, 8:02pm

I'm preparing to do the same any day now. Looking forward to Ultralite paying for mine.

Happy to help!

Alan

9-13-17, 8:28pm

Happy to help!Just so you know, over the past 45 years I've paid for the best coverage in the civilized world and I'd really like to maintain it once you take over. Don't let me down.

Ultralight

9-13-17, 8:37pm

Just so you know, over the past 45 years I've paid for the best coverage in the civilized world and I'd really like to maintain it once you take over. Don't let me down.

I care deeply about making sure that myself and my fellow Americans have excellent, top notch healthcare. I am willing to contribute, advocate, and even vote to ensure it.

Alan

9-13-17, 8:40pm

I care deeply about making sure that myself and my fellow Americans have excellent, top notch healthcare. I am willing to contribute, advocate, and even vote to ensure it.
Great! I was afraid you'd stick me with government run single payer. That's a huge load off my mind.

Ultralight

9-13-17, 8:42pm

I was afraid you'd stick me with government run single payer.
That is what I hope to do. And I bet you'll begrudgingly like it!

Alan

9-13-17, 8:47pm

That is what I hope to do. And I bet you'll begrudgingly like it!Reminds me of Henry Ford: "You can have any color Model T you'd like, as long as it's black".

flowerseverywhere

9-13-17, 9:59pm

catherine

9-13-17, 10:11pm

https://www.medicare.gov/your-medicare-costs/costs-at-a-glance/costs-at-glance.html

review that document and you will see Medicare is not free. There are deductibles, premiums, copay and some things are excluded. Drug coverage and MD coverage require premiums.

Before anyone throws a celebration about Medicare for all check out the costs. I imagine your glee will disappear.

it would cost us thousands each year before we had a chance to even see an MD or get sick in premiums alone.

Most commercial insurance plans are increasing deductibles, co-pays and other cost-sharing measures, so not sure how Medicare would be that much different. This year I gleefully transitioned from a high-premium, high-deductible commercial plan to significantly more affordable Medicare plan.

flowerseverywhere

9-13-17, 10:18pm

Most commercial insurance plans are increasing deductibles, co-pays and other cost-sharing measures, so not sure how Medicare would be that much different. This year I gleefully transitioned from a high-premium, high-deductible commercial plan to significantly more affordable Medicare plan.

i agree with you. But I often see posts that equate Medicare for all with free coverage. Untrue. Some people may actually see increased costs. But no one will have zero coverage.

have you used Medicare much since becoming eligible? Because even one hospitalization can be quite costly

gimmethesimplelife

9-13-17, 10:40pm

i agree with you. But I often see posts that equate Medicare for all with free coverage. Untrue. Some people may actually see increased costs. But no one will have zero coverage.

have you used Medicare much since becoming eligible? Because even one hospitalization can be quite costlyThis is one HUGE perk of living in Arizona and being over 65....we have this wonderful thing here called a Medicare Advantage plan that very much makes insurance and medical issues affordable. I don't know if all states have them but there are Medicare Advantage plans in Maricopa County (metro Phoenix, suburbs, and outlying areas) that are $0 premiums and I mean tiny, tiny, tiny deductibles and reasonable copays to the point that it actually saves you money to stay HERE for health care as opposed to fleeing to Mexico for health care - these Medicare Advantage Plans are truly that good. My mother is with Health Net of Arizona and has only nice things to say about them, and this is after spinal surgery in 2012 and a knee replacement earlier this year. Rob

PS Came back to edit - my bad. Should have been $0 premiums and not $0 co-pays.

ApatheticNoMore

9-13-17, 11:20pm

review that document and you will see Medicare is not free. There are deductibles, premiums, copay and some things are excluded. Drug coverage and MD coverage require premiums.

Before anyone throws a celebration about Medicare for all check out the costs. I imagine your glee will disappear.

yes but some of the proposed plans don't have all these costs. So you have to look at the actual bills and not Medicare (I do realize no such bills are likely to be passed right now). The House bill is specifically called "EXPANDED and IMPROVED Medicare for all", because it's not just Medicare. I don't actually know how Sander's plan differs from the House bill.

They do need to control costs, mostly because hospitals etc. are price gouging. Americans as a whole might use a lot of healthcare (if so they definitely don't have the lifespans to show for it) but most of that is probably already paid for by the government, if it's things like end of life care, that's in most cases people over 65. The most expensive people are already being covered by the government (even granted that they are still nickle and dimed).

flowerseverywhere

9-14-17, 3:58am

Gimme and Apathetic your input is great. I just cannot imagine with the current crew in power a wonderful free healthcare for all system will come to be. I can imagine more of the traditional Medicare that everyone pitches into would be far more likely to pass and even that is not too likely. How are all the medical insurers, Pharma and equipment maker donors going to get their payback?

Yppej

9-14-17, 4:54am

One thing I have not heard proposed is funding to retrain personnel to care for the underserved instead of processing insurance paperwork.

Ultralight

9-14-17, 6:28am

Republicans and other corporatists (Pelosi types, for instance): Relax!

There will never be a single-payer or other universal healthcare system in the US.

Never.

Never ever.

The people in power simply will not allow it. And the American middle and working classes are too provincial and ignorant to know how much better things could be.

Call me a cynic or a realist if you like. But I am tellin' ya how it is!

Ain't never gonna happen.

flowerseverywhere

9-14-17, 7:49am

Ultralight

9-14-17, 7:55am

Like George Carlin said: "Be happy with what ya got. It is never gonna get any better."

Tammy

9-14-17, 8:58am

I thought we'd never have gay marriage. I thought we'd never have legal marijuana for recreational use. Don't give up hope yet ...

Tybee

9-14-17, 9:07am

Tammy, I know, the changes come really fast when they finally come, and the world becomes very different, thank God.

gimmethesimplelife

9-14-17, 9:22am

I thought we'd never have gay marriage. I thought we'd never have legal marijuana for recreational use. Don't give up hope yet ...I'm still reeling over the first one here......sometimes I amazed to this day I'm actually married to another man and that the marriage is legally recognized not just in Massachusetts (has had gay marriage since 2004, and was the first state to have this)! I believe there is some hope BUT I also believe this one is going to be more of a mountain to move. What really needs to happen is to have more and more people offshore their health care and to have more and more people apply for and receive retirement visas to lower cost countries with the main reason for fleeing being health care costs. In other words, the system needs to be starved, boycotted to some degree, and denied inputs. This is the only way I can realistically see change happening.

I've done my bit to offshore my health care - though here I will add that my last hospitalization was in Phoenix with my liver infection - I really was too sick to get myself to the border. So I grant that this is not always possible or realistic. But at least for lesser things I have no problem offshoring and now that I'm not on Medicaid it's my most cost effective and realistic option. As costs continue to rise with no wage increases to cover this, watch more and more people forced to flee America for health care - and if the government unwisely attempts a crack down on this - watch more and more people come to realizations I already long since have about this country. This all will be interesting to witness from my vantage point of having realized all of this in the 80's as a teenager........Rob

gimmethesimplelife

9-14-17, 9:25am

Tammy, I know, the changes come really fast when they finally come, and the world becomes very different, thank God.There is some truth to this....I remember before the Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage how it felt like one domino after another toppling to the point that even ARIZONA legalized same-sex marriage before the Supreme Court forced it's hand to do so. There are times that this is true but I do have a hard time seeing health care being a human right in America except for the elderly and the poor via Medicaid. Rob

iris lilies

9-14-17, 9:51am

I'm still reeling over the first one here......sometimes I amazed to this day I'm actually married to another man and that the marriage is legally recognized not just in Massachusetts (has had gay marriage since 2004, and was the first state to have this)! I believe there is some hope BUT I also believe this one is going to be more of a mountain to move. What really needs to happen is to have more and more people offshore their health care and to have more and more people apply for and receive retirement visas to lower cost countries with the main reason for fleeing being health care costs. In other words, the system needs to be starved, boycotted to some degree, and denied inputs. This is the only way I can realistically see change happening.

I've done my bit to offshore my health care - though here I will add that my last hospitalization was in Phoenix with my liver infection - I really was too sick to get myself to the border. So I grant that this is not always possible or realistic. But at least for lesser things I have no problem offshoring and now that I'm not on Medicaid it's my most cost effective and realistic option. As costs continue to rise with no wage increases to cover this, watch more and more people forced to flee America for health care - and if the government unwisely attempts a crack down on this - watch more and more people come to realizations I already long since have about this country. This all will be interesting to witness from my vantage point of having realized all of this in the 80's as a teenager........Rob

I usually stay away from attempting to understand your logic, but I will bite on this point you often make because I cannot grok how you get from Point A to Point B

..."What really needs to happen is to have more and more people offshore their health care and to have more and more people apply for and receive retirement visas to lower cost countries with the main reason for fleeing being health care costs. In other words, the system needs to be starved, boycotted to some degree, and denied inputs. This is the only way I can realistically see change happening."

As I understand Rob's World of Logic,

A) The inhumane overlords of the U.S. do not care about providing healthcare to citizens in this class based society ( with certain exceptions*)

B) The inhumane overlords will suddenly care if Rob's lower class (his words mind you) compatriots in the 85006 all of a sudden exodus to Mexico for teeth cleaning and etc.

Rob's Conclusion: the overlords do not care until they care.

What??!!! What exactly makes them suddenly care about where the little people get their health care services? If the little people are not paying overlords now in this inhumane system, they wont be paying overlords then in Rob's fantasy offshoring system. What changes in the world of overlords to suddently make them care about where some people go to get healthcare?

Retirees in Mexico still pay U.S. income tax. The overlords get their blood money regardless.

* exceptions being Rob's quarter of a million $ in hospitalizations in recent years and Rob's mother's pricey treatments. Stack those costs up against any "offshoring" of health treatments Rob has paid for out of f pocket and guess which stack is higher. Not the Mexico treatments.

Williamsmith

9-14-17, 10:09am

We are undoubtedly moving as a country toward less freedom. You can't separate healthcare from freedom. Our concept of insurance has gotten way out of hand. Obamacare is about forcing people to subsidize other people's healthcare. I think of a universal healthcare program as the government authorizing one person to steal from another person simply because one has been determined to have more by some formula.

The only way to free ourselves is to be able to be responsible for our own healthcare. Force providers to reduce their costs and therefore their charges. We have free healthcare now. To all kinds of citizens and non citizens. Someone else picks up the tab. No reason the poor and elderly can't still be served for free out of generousity of doctors, surgeons and hospitals.

Bureaucrats, politicians and corporations are the cause of this nightmare. But they have their hands in it and eventually they will be forced to install a universal system but not until they can ensure they will continue to receive the money they are used to. And so universal healthcare will be a fiasco. It works in other countries but the US is a different animal in more ways than one.

Id rather have the freedom and I'd rather not have the government taking money from my neighbor and giving it to me so I can go get a procedure done. Or vice Versa. I might as well take a gun and go next door, stick it in my neighbors face and say, "Sorry, I need my teeth cleaned, gimmie some money."

JaneV2.0

9-14-17, 10:17am

I would be perfectly happy with a fee for service plan if medical costs hadn't been driven sky-high by insurers and Pharma for obscene CEO pay and market payoffs.

Lainey

9-14-17, 10:25am

I would be perfectly happy with a fee for service plan if medical costs hadn't been driven sky-high by insurers and Pharma for obscene CEO pay and market payoffs.

Have you seen the latest articles on the price of insulin? Many people have reduced their use because that alone is costing them hundreds of dollars a month out of pocket. Multiply that by any other medical issue for any other household member, and now you see where "I'll pay for my own healthcare" isn't feasible given the median household income of $59,000 before taxes.

catherine

9-14-17, 10:30am

Williamsmith, it's certainly a difference in philosophy. You have been talking about how compelled you are to share your resources with your son in Houston who fell on bad times during the storm. In my mind, providing universal healthcare is exactly that on larger scale.

How do we force providers to reduce their costs and their charges? Why are you leaving it to other people to decide to be generous when lives are at stake? Is "charity" the best model for a good quality of life for our poor and elderly?

I think it's almost impossible for sides represented by you and me to agree, because fundamentally we differ on the role of government. How is taxation for universal healthcare different from public schools, where people who don't have children support the education of those who do. We wind up deciding what's important for the citizens of a nation and we support those things with our taxes, even if we don't use them: education, good roads, parks, etc. Granting our citizens a healthcare system in which the often capricious circumstances of personal finance do not dictate morbidity or mortality is the kind of country I want to live in.

Tybee

9-14-17, 10:58am

How is taxation for universal healthcare different from public schools, where people who don't have children support the education of those who do. We wind up deciding what's important for the citizens of a nation and we support those things with our taxes, even if we don't use them: education, good roads, parks, etc. Granting our citizens a healthcare system in which the often capricious circumstances of personal finance do not dictate morbidity or mortality is the kind of country I want to live in.

I could not agree more!

Williamsmith

9-14-17, 11:32am

I could not agree more!

I agree. It is the kind of country we all want to live in. But you are willing to trust politicians and bureaucrats to oversee this procedure and I am not. I'd like to go back to before Medicare and Medicaid existed. Back when it cost $24 for me to be born in a hospital. According to the inflation calculator, that's about $200-250 dollars give or take.

Back when healthcare insurance was only necessary for catastrophic illness. Not massages or cleaning the wax out of your ear. Back when employers weren't responsible to set up healthcare programs for their employees.

Back when government had nothing to do with healthcare except for regulatory necessity. Back when going to the doctor was no more complicated that going to the grocery store.

The march toward socialized medicine is one which you turn in your freedom of choice to a government suit or clerk. Thats not what I call a move forward.

Tybee

9-14-17, 11:38am

It's funny, my kids just got the bill for the birth of my g'daughter, and it was 24k for a C-section. I actually thought that was not so bad, given it was a C-section. But interestingly, it was 8k for the actual birth, and 16k for 3 days in the hospital. That seemed kind of whacked.

catherine

9-14-17, 11:40am

Why the inflation? Because the for-profit enterprises can and do charge whatever they want, and no one questions it because no one can figure out what the charges actually are, and the web of stakeholders grows and grows, diluting accountability and adding to the overall expense.

I have often wished the same thing, Williamsmith, that we could go back to simpler times healthcare-wise. I actually find it absurd that healthcare should be such a prominent slam on our personal budgets. My permaculture teacher says that he doesn't have health insurance by choice. His health insurance is being out in nature, eating fresh food, getting lots of fresh air and exercise. Maybe he's a tad naive--sickness can befall anyone. But think the message is right. We are poisoned by our culture in many respects, and then we lack the means to pay for the antidote. It's just a mess.

Tybee

9-14-17, 11:52am

"We are poisoned by our culture in many respects, and then we lack the means to pay for the antidote. It's just a mess."

Again, you are nailing it, Catherine. Really profound and really true.

Williamsmith

9-14-17, 11:59am

catherine

9-14-17, 12:25pm

Catherine, the area I live in is habited by many Amish communities. I'm not holding them out as perfect representatives of what life can be...but in the area of freedom and choices, they make sense. They are not required to participate in social security nor by virtue of its ties are they mandated to participate in Obamacare.

They self insure. It is not a model of socialized medicine. It is simplicity. No different than buying a dozen ears of corn for dinner. They get discounted services at the hospital because there are no insurance companies, employers, politicians or bureacrats involved.

They work diligently, educated their own way, earn very good wages and pay cash for their healthcare. No middle man. And they aren't concerned with squeezing out every last single breath of air from life at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The i insurance industry and government are getting in the way of simple market principles.

Yeah, we have a lot to learn from the Amish. As you said, not perfect maybe, but models of simplicity, frugality and community.

Unfortunately the insurance industry and government have created a monster where simple market principles no longer apply. But given what we've got, until we've untangled this mess or razed it to the ground, I'll take the single-payer system. By definition, it's just simpler.