Making minimalism a deal breaker?

[Ultralight]

Well, things have appeared to have ended with the woman from Illinois. Nice enough gal, really. But we both seem to have realized that compatibility wasn't quite where it needed to be.

So I am thinking that, in going forward, I might make minimalism a "deal breaker" issue in romance.

If the woman is not a minimalist, then she and I are an immediate no-go.

Thoughts?

[bae]

Should simplify matters.

[herbgeek]

It will certainly minimalize relationships for you. ;)

[razz]

UL, it seems that you are setting up all kinds of parameters that others have to meet. What are your parameters for your thoughts, feelings and actions that will attract the love-interest that you are striving to meet. What are you genuinely giving to and sharing with the world right now? Sort of being what you want to see in others. Wish there was a better way of expressing but that is the best that I can do for now.

[Ultralight]

Should simplify matters.
I LOLed at this!
bae, I enjoy the heck out of your wit and wisdom. :)

[Ultralight]

UL, it seems that you are setting up all kinds of parameters that others have to meet. What are your parameters for your thoughts, feelings and actions that will attract the love-interest that you are striving to meet. What are you genuinely giving to and sharing with the world right now? Sort of being what you want to see in others. Wish there was a better way of expressing but that is the best that I can do for now.

Good questions. I appreciate them.

[Williamsmith]

Some people just aren't suited for partnership. You might be one of them. As far as "compatibility" is concerned..."To All The Girls I've Loved Before......"

[flowerseverywhere]

maybe you could start a new online dating service and call it Minimalist date. I know couples who have met through J date, for Jewish singles or a Christian service. Although one need only look at our current administration to see some people's views of Christianity are quite different than others. Probably the same with minimalism. Here are some great ideas for you

https://www.lifewire.com/online-dating-services-you-wont-believe-3485963

[Chicken lady]

So, you are looking for an atheist woman who owns less than 200? Items, does not want children, is financially stable and capable of supporting herself, and looking to make a lifelong commitment? Anything else?

and she wants you why? Serious question, not a put down.

have you heard the song "whole wide world"? it made me think of you the other day.

[Ultralight]

Okay, so here is my rationale behind making minimalism a mandatory.

If a woman is a practicing minimalist, then we are more likely to share both values and a lifestyle.
If she is a practicing minimalist she is probably:
-Disciplined
-Has proper executive function
-Is well-read
-Is intellectual
-Not a shopper
-Not materialistic
-Not superficial
-Likes traveling
-Can clean
-Is frugal

And so on.

Practicing minimalism is an indicator of many other values and lifestyle choices.

Also, making minimalism a deal breaker prevents me from wasting my time or the time of others. It also immediately weeds out any hoarders or clutter bugs.

[Ultralight]

So, you are looking for an atheist woman who owns less than 200? Items, does not want children, is financially stable and capable of supporting herself, and looking to make a lifelong commitment? Anything else?
I'd like to share a mutual physical attraction.

But do you know someone like this? Hook me up!


and she wants you why? Serious question, not a put down.

She wants me because:
-I share her values
-We have a similar lifestyle
-I am a highly educated, employed, and reliable guy who loves rescue dogs
-I do my share of cooking and cleaning
-I am respectful and compassionate
-I am well-read, bright, and "low-key" funny
-I am an expert snuggler, I give great massages, and I am skilled at _____.
-I live an active lifestyle.

Need I go on?


have you heard the song "whole wide world"? it made me think of you the other day.
Link me.

[Williamsmith]

Do you actually consider dating a waste of time? Granted, it's been a while for me but I seem to recall excitement at the anticipation of learning about what makes people who they are and see what chemistry develops. I never felt any date was a waste of time. It was like opening a door and exploring a new neighborhood every time. When you have such a rigid list, it makes it appear you are treating a woman like just one of the 200 items on your list. Just a thing that is either useful or not. You don't seem to understand the concept of "potential" in a relationship.

[Ultralight]

Do you actually consider dating a waste of time? Granted, it's been a while for me but I seem to recall excitement at the anticipation of learning about what makes people who they are and see what chemistry develops. I never felt any date was a waste of time. It was like opening a door and exploring a new neighborhood every time. When you have such a rigid list, it makes it appear you are treating a woman like just one of the 200 items on your list. Just a thing that is either useful or not. You don't seem to understand the concept of "potential" in a relationship.

I like dating and getting to know someone and so forth. But I really dislike breaking up with someone or even just telling them I am not interested.

[Chicken lady]

I think you are making too many assumptions about minimalists. If the number of items she owns is not important to you (within reason) just use the list you just made.

also, suppose she is messy, hates to clean, and has solved this by getting a great job and hiring a cleaning service?

but seriously, I have never met a woman who was financially secure, did not want kids, and had no religious prohibition against extramarital sex who was looking for a male life partner. Women in that category are probably just out enjoying their lives and if they should happen to meet a man they want to commit to for life, fine, but it's unlikely to be a quick decision. They aren't interested in "someone they can live with" you have to be "someone they can't live without"

dh uncle managed to catch one - she came with a ton of belongings, a disabled father to care for, and a mother who had opinions about everything and was her best friend. They were both in their mid forties. He made significantly more money than she did, and he is brilliant, funny, kind, and interested in everything. She also loved his big family. It took him 3 years to land her. They are now in their 70's. I think the women of my generation are less likely to take that leap. And you are younger than I am.

[Chicken lady]

Many posts while I was typing. I am low tech. Search the song.

maybe you should stop looking for women and start joining rescue dog organizations and outdoor activity groups.

[razz]

What about simply a 'friend with benefits' and forget about the long-term part of it? BE a giver of positive validation and worth and joy and have fun. See where that goes. One member here who was comfy in her solo life found her partner that way.

[Ultralight]

I think you are making too many assumptions about minimalists. If the number of items she owns is not important to you (within reason) just use the list you just made.

also, suppose she is messy, hates to clean, and has solved this by getting a great job and hiring a cleaning service?

but seriously, I have never met a woman who was financially secure, did not want kids, and had no religious prohibition against extramarital sex who was looking for a male life partner. Women in that category are probably just out enjoying their lives and if they should happen to meet a man they want to commit to for life, fine, but it's unlikely to be a quick decision. They aren't interested in "someone they can live with" you have to be "someone they can't live without"

dh uncle managed to catch one - she came with a ton of belongings, a disabled father to care for, and a mother who had opinions about everything and was her best friend. They were both in their mid forties. He made significantly more money than she did, and he is brilliant, funny, kind, and interested in everything. She also loved his big family. It took him 3 years to land her. They are now in their 70's. I think the women of my generation are less likely to take that leap. And you are younger than I am.

The assumptions I make about minimalist women are merely assumptions though they are loosely based on vloggers and bloggers who are female practicing minimalists.

Hiring a maid is not very frugal, though in a sense it is minimalist. I would not do that. I DIY it when it comes to cleaning. When you are minimalist, cleaning is quick and easy. You just need to do it for like 15 minutes every couple days or so.

[Chicken lady]

Btw, I do know an attractive physically active atheist single woman in her 50's who loves dogs. She hikes, canoes, and travels widely. She loves gardening. she owns a farm house that is lightly filled and is into stuff in a very limited way (she has a few nice pieces of art, quality furniture...) but she drinks, she relapses to smoking sometimes, she has plenty of friends to do things with, and her response to you would probably be "I have enough children in my life" (grown son and his friends) because if she looked at your posts, she would see the same "searching for who I am and what I want" they are going through. And she doesn't need another man in her life.

[Ultralight]

What about simply a 'friend with benefits' and forget about the long-term part of it? BE a giver of positive validation and worth and joy and have fun. See where that goes. One member here who was comfy in her solo life found her partner that way.

This is not really my style. But I am open to it. I'd want it to be monogamous though.

[goldensmom]

I had parameters and a vision for the relationship I wished to enter then I met a man, ‘fell in love’, married and all the parameters and visions I had went out the door. Things have changed over the years, we changed and we are not the same individuals or couple that we started out as nearly 40 years ago, we are better and when we have to, we work things out. Probably not helpful but hopefully encouraging.

[Ultralight]

Btw, I do know an attractive physically active atheist single woman in her 50's who loves dogs. She hikes, canoes, and travels widely. She loves gardening. she owns a farm house that is lightly filled and is into stuff in a very limited way (she has a few nice pieces of art, quality furniture...) but she drinks, she relapses to smoking sometimes, she has plenty of friends to do things with, and her response to you would probably be "I have enough children in my life" (grown son and his friends) because if she looked at your posts, she would see the same "searching for who I am and what I want" they are going through. And she doesn't need another man in her life.

For some of us, we are on something of a vision quest our whole lives.
Others of us sort of plop down in one place (physically and/or emotionally and/or intellectually). Then that is that. End of the road. Perhaps that is the sort of person she is? Perhaps being around someone on a perpetual vision quest reminds her of how she ceased to question, ceased to grow, ceased to develop. And that causes a cognitive dissonance she finds painful.

[Ultralight]

I had parameters and a vision for the relationship I wished to enter then I met a man, ‘fell in love’, married and all the parameters and visions I had went out the door. Things have changed over the years, we changed and we are not the same individuals or couple that we started out as nearly 40 years ago, we are better and when we have to, we work things out. Probably not helpful but hopefully encouraging.
Tell me more.

[herbgeek]

UL, sounds like you treat finding a women like finding a movie on Netflix, ie " I want exactly what I want when I want it, and will stop the movie the second it ceases to be exactly what I want. " Good luck with this, I mean that in all sincerity.

[Ultralight]

UL, sounds like you treat finding a women like finding a movie on Netflix, ie " I want exactly what I want when I want it, and will stop the movie the second it ceases to be exactly what I want. " Good luck with this, I mean that in all sincerity.

I think this is hyperbolic.

For instance, I am very flexible about physical appearance. As long as a woman is not emaciated or obese then I am fine with anything from skinny to overweight. I am also open to dating women from any race or ethnic background. I'd also be open to dating a woman with a physical disability, like if she was in a wheelchair, for example. That would probably not be a major factor. I am also not concerned with height, from super short to super tall, doesn't matter. Hair style or length? I don't care that much, but natural is good -- I don't mind silver at all. While I would prefer to date a woman in the 45-60 age range, I would go as low as 21 and as high as 65.

I am flexible about religion too. While I would prefer she be atheist I would be fine with dating a woman who is religious as long as she is not preaching to me all the time. I can and have agreed to disagree on this, though I would prefer a secular woman.

As far as hobbies go, I think having one shared passion/interest/activity is key. But if she plays on a softball league or is a model train enthusiast or a mini-citrus grower, I am cool with it and willing to support her. I have hobbies, so I know how they can be quite important.

[iris lilies]

I was this in my early 30s: atheist, drank occasionally, didnt want children, didnt care about getting married, minimalist (I wish I had photos of my living room and bedroom in the first house I bought to show you! ) they were bare of furniture, just a bed and dresser in the bedroom, a sofa and coffee table in living room. The other rooms had a few more things. I was conscious of minimalism and practiced it to some extent becasue I liked saving money, and I was always planning to move for my career, anyway. But I still had way more than 200 things. I consciously did not collect books, that was a stated goal.

The thing is, minimalism wasnt important to me in a boyfriend. It didnt occur to me to require that of others. But then, it didnt occur to me that I would be sharing living space with someone else because I just was not thinking about living with someone.

It was kind of horrifyng when DH moved in to my small two bedroom house. He owned large sets of furniture (purchased second hand, of course) but I had negotiated with him to keep 75% of it out of my, er, our house. His parents on the farm kept of it. Some months later my new employer paid for us to move, so all of that furniture minus a huge bedroom set got loaded on a truck and moved at someone else's expense, including two extra cars. Oh I forgot, I did have two cars and so did he. Cars are our weakness, we are not minimalist there.

[Tybee]

I think it's hard to find a mate, if a mate is what you even want to find. I was lucky; my husband has all the nice attributes that you list, including a love of dogs. We share that. We share MANY common interests and in fact met through the common shared interests. If you want to find a mate, I think getting out into the world and doing what is fun for you is the way to go.

But my son has just found a girlfriend online, so I guess that can work, too. She even has a really nice Boxer.

My husband is not a minimalist, and I would not be happy with a hard core minimalist. If that is the dealbreaker for you--and everyone has them, if they are honest with themselves--then I think the idea of a minimalist dating site is really cool. You could end up the next Steve Zuckerberg if you start one and it catches on.

I don't think I have any dealbreakers where someone has to be one thing or another. When I was dating, if we did nto share common interests and a similar sense of humor and values, then I lost interest and they probably did, too. But my last period of dating was when I was 40, and I lucked out and fell in love at first sight, which was something I never, ever expected.

So maybe just get out there and pursue the things that interest and delight you, and you will find someone doing the same thing!

[Ultralight]

I think it's hard to find a mate, if a mate is what you even want to find. I was lucky; my husband has all the nice attributes that you list, including a love of dogs. We share that. We share MANY common interests and in fact met through the common shared interests. If you want to find a mate, I think getting out into the world and doing what is fun for you is the way to go.

But my son has just found a girlfriend online, so I guess that can work, too. She even has a really nice Boxer.

My husband is not a minimalist, and I would not be happy with a hard core minimalist. If that is the dealbreaker for you--and everyone has them, if they are honest with themselves--then I think the idea of a minimalist dating site is really cool. You could end up the next Steve Zuckerberg if you start one and it catches on.

I don't think I have any dealbreakers where someone has to be one thing or another. When I was dating, if we did nto share common interests and a similar sense of humor and values, then I lost interest and they probably did, too. But my last period of dating was when I was 40, and I lucked out and fell in love at first sight, which was something I never, ever expected.

So maybe just get out there and pursue the things that interest and delight you, and you will find someone doing the same thing!

I appreciate you sharing your insights and experiences!

[ToomuchStuff]

So, you are looking for an atheist woman who owns less than 200? Items, does not want children, is financially stable and capable of supporting herself, and looking to make a lifelong commitment? Anything else?

and she wants you why? Serious question, not a put down.

have you heard the song "whole wide world"? it made me think of you the other day.


I'd like to share a mutual physical attraction.

But do you know someone like this? Hook me up!



She wants me because:
-I share her values
-We have a similar lifestyle
-I am a highly educated, employed, and reliable guy who loves rescue dogs
-I do my share of cooking and cleaning
-I am respectful and compassionate
-I am well-read, bright, and "low-key" funny
-I am an expert snuggler, I give great massages, and I am skilled at _____.
-I live an active lifestyle.

Need I go on?


Link me.

Based on Chicken Ladies post, they don't share values. Is it financially stable to owe more then your worth? Is that a "shared value" or superficial that has only recently been grown out of? How long have you been a minimalist, actually? Do you not think there is any possibility for eventual growth to a right size? (you have already obtained more)
Sounds to me you have a biological clock ticking (find someone before I die), and are worried about their biological clock (kids), and wanting something like an arranged marriage (fix me up).

It will happen, IF/when it happens.

[goldensmom]

Tell me more.

Since you asked…..the parameters that I had for a relationship before marriage are too many to list and mostly forgotten at this point in my life. I decided that is was more important to me to spend the rest of my life with this man than all else so I did some soul searching and came up with one non-negotiable and that was that we pledge to be faithful to one another. All other things can be negotiated. For example, I am a minimalist and my husband is not. He has multiples of the same power tool and just too many tools in general but it is not an unbearable vice so I let it go. I like to travel and he does not so I find a traveling companion or go solo, not a big deal.


I had a vision of where I wanted to live but my husbands profession limited our choices and I decided to accept him over an address. I had a vision for a big family but we could not have children. As childlessness was unforeseeable before marriage, it was something we had to deal with together.


We have changed and are changing simply as a matter of aging but we deal with it by the Biblical principal of putting the needs of others first and that includes husbands of wives and wives of husbands. I am my husbands helpmeet, not his mother, guidance counselor or warden. I learned early on that I cannot make my husband into what I want him to be but can choose to accept him for who he is….choosing being the operative word.

[Geila]

I think the Mr. Money Mustache forums have a dating section. You might try that and see how you like it. I think many MMM'ers would share your values/interests like frugality, minimalism, travel, etc. I think many also tend to favor the choice to not have children and absence of religion.

p.s. I just noticed you have to be a member to access the dating forum - it's called Mustachian and Single and a very quick glance told me you might enjoy the conversations going on in there.

[Ultralight]

Based on Chicken Ladies post, they don't share values. Is it financially stable to owe more then your worth? Is that a "shared value" or superficial that has only recently been grown out of? How long have you been a minimalist, actually? Do you not think there is any possibility for eventual growth to a right size? (you have already obtained more)
Sounds to me you have a biological clock ticking (find someone before I die), and are worried about their biological clock (kids), and wanting something like an arranged marriage (fix me up).

It will happen, IF/when it happens.

I am not interested in having kids. And I am not in a huge hurry (but I am 38!).
I want to meet someone and have a life partnership. Rent is expensive!

[Chicken lady]

Get a roommate.

my friend simply knows who she is. She enjoys learning new things and trying new things and traveling to new places. She is not looking for people to meet her needs. She is not expecting any of that to fill holes in her life or change her into what she will become. She just enjoys it. At this point, she knows change happens. She isn't looking to accelerate it or hold it back.

You project, extrapolate, and assume a lot. You might try communicating more with actual people one at a time and analyze hypothetical people based on group norms less.

[creaker]

I expect it would be important to find out how everyone defines their labels - you could meet someone who doesn't consider themselves "minimalist" who is actually more minimalist than you'd ever consider doing yourself.

[Geila]

I expect it would be important to find out how everyone defines their labels - you could meet someone who doesn't consider themselves "minimalist" who is actually more minimalist than you'd ever consider doing yourself.

Yes! DH has always called himself a minimalist because he doesn't buy anything. But he doesn't throw anything away either! It's been a real struggle to get him to let go of stuff he's had for decades.

[nswef]

Geila, You made me laugh. A minimalist who buys nothing but also gives up nothing. I know the feeling!

[iris lilies]

Yes! DH has always called himself a minimalist because he doesn't buy anything. But he doesn't throw anything away either! It's been a real struggle to get him to let go of stuff he's had for decades.
Exactly my DH. He is very frugal when it comes to buyng stuff, but once acquired, it will live here forever.

[Teacher Terry]

I agree with trying the Mr MM site. You have too many requirements.

[JaneV2.0]

My SO wouldn't consider himself a minimalist, but he's owned his condo for thirty-some years, and he doesn't have any living room furniture. I visit and have to sit on the bed. It's never occurred to him that someone might like a chair. We're polar opposites in that regard.

[SteveinMN]

I am not interested in having kids. And I am not in a huge hurry (but I am 38!).
I want to meet someone and have a life partnership. Rent is expensive!
You forgot a smiley at the end of your last sentence. Coupled with the sentence before, it makes it look more like an economic arrangement than a lifetime commitment. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that.

When I divorced, 1) I had to be okay with the idea that I never would be married again or even in another really-long-term relationship (I was okay with that); and 2) I made plenty of time for myself to think about what I had to have ("dealbreakers") and wanted to have in a relationship. #1 was a short list: a non-smoker and someone who valued marital fidelity. That was binary. Did or didn't.

#2 had to be tempered with reality. As a guy in my early 40s who wanted to be with someone fairly close to my age, I knew that a large percentage of women in that age range would have had children. So more thinking was necessary. Was it a deal-breaker? Was it OK that making it a dealbreaker could make it a very long time before an LTR happened? Did the kids have to be grown and out of the house? Did I want to have more children with that woman? Did she want more with me? What if the "children" actually were the woman's pets (we all know people like this)? All that had to be figured out as we went. The woman I married had a grown child and things are great between her and me.

Can you make minimalism a dealbreaker? I think you can if you define just what that means to you. Does it means owning less than 200 items? Does it mean not buying a single thing new (besides really personal items)? Does it mean owning more than 200 items but one old item is removed for every new item that comes in? What if she is not as well-read as you expect minimalists to be? What do you do when she's not minimalist enough? Does it mean breaking up with her even if she hits the right notes in pretty much every other department?

If rent is expensive and you really want a LTR, is it worth giving this up if everything else looks good? Can you determine the rest if the minimalism bar isn't cleared?

Yeah, you can do it. Do you really want to?

[pinkytoe]

Hmm..I note there are minimalist meet up groups. I actually think it makes sense (practical me) to seek a partner that shares one very strong core value like that. But I do think your parameters in total are probably too restrictive.

[ToomuchStuff]

I am not interested in having kids. And I am not in a huge hurry (but I am 38!).
I want to meet someone and have a life partnership. Rent is expensive!

Not a huge hurry, just a hurry (I want it now).
Talked to a worker for the buyers of the house next door, and he started talking about how he met his wife (only, never been married before) at 50.
You think rent is expensive, you have no idea then about relationships. Rent wouldn't seem so expensive if you didn't have your debt.

[Chicken lady]

Yes, you don't really mention economics, but I get the sense that that is actually a huge issue for you - so fundamental that you don't really think about it.

you really want a gf who doesn't want you to spend money on her. Ever. I remember your objections to taking your previous girlfriend out on dates that cost money. You objected to my hypothetical financially comfortable woman making the decision to spend HER money on hiring cleaning services that simplified and improved HER life as "not frugal". And I don't get the impression that you were saying "I don't value spending money on that, so I would happily put the time in to clean up after her so the money could go elsewhere." No, you want to be sure she is cleaning up after herself. The money can only be spent on things you value and she has to agree with your time use values to achieve that.

i think you are too picky. There are women who want someone to make all their decisions and control every aspect of their lives - maybe you should try tumblr.

[JaneV2.0]

...

i think you are too picky. There are women who want someone to make all their decisions and control every aspect of their lives - maybe you should try tumblr.

Or overseas--I imagine there are women who would put up with a constrained life for a green card.

[iris lilies]

Or overseas--I imagine there are women who would put up with a constrained life for a green card.
The right third world inhabitant WILL be frugal according to UL's criteria because that is how they were raised. And, I would expect them to cook very well, wonderful ethnic dishes.

But rhey are not going to bring home the bacan and go 50/50 on rent.

[catherine]

Hmmm, you're expecting a lot in that big ol' minimalist basket! Not sure how you make the leap from minimalist to being well-read, intellectual, not superficial, likes traveling. I think those things might be predictors of minimalist traits, but not necessarily part of the package.

I think choosing a minimalist partner would be more about compatibility from a logistics POV more than a philosophical POV. If you really can't stand watching any superfluities come in over the transom, because you are so afraid it's going to upset the ecological and aesthetic balance of your home, that's going to wind up in a lot of arguments. Your 300 sq ft space is not going to accommodate the stuff a frivolous shopper brings home. So there will be severe head-butting.

So, I get that. But I'm sure you can find people who are intellectual, well-read, not superficial, travel-loving people who are not minimalist.

But given that minimalism is a relative term, I agree with Steve--you have to define it. If she wants a 1000 sq ft apartment and 500 sq ft is your limit, is that a deal breaker? If her "gazingus pin" (YMOYL term) is magazines but she's minimal in everything else, are you going to demand she throw out her magazines? Or collection of 100 vintage barrettes? Or anything else?

Or if you found a perfect soul-mate and the chemistry was instantaneous, but her apartment was filled with a collection of ceramic gnomes, what would you do?

[Tybee]

I just Google minimalist dating site and this came up:
https://www.minimalistdating.com/

I have no idea what it is or if it is legit, but it claims to be a dating site for minimalists.

[Williamsmith]

UL...have you considered the blow up doll scenario? The only downside is that you'd have to get rid of one of the 200 items to make room for her but if you put a book in her hand, she would appear to be well read.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If a woman is a practicing minimalist, then we are more likely to share both values and a lifestyle.
If she is a practicing minimalist she is probably:
-Disciplined
-Has proper executive function
-Is well-read
-Is intellectual
-Not a shopper
-Not materialistic
-Not superficial
-Likes traveling
-Can clean
-Is frugal

I don't see how some of this follows. I think people can be selectively disciplined like very disciplined in their minimalism say and not disciplined very much in say their eating behaviors (wait isn't that you at times? I recall a thread about pancakes, of course perhaps the pancake weakness has been overcome) or any number of things that require discipline (like work, ambition, exercise etc.), and no it doesn't mean she never touches a glass of wine either (which doesn't matter to most people, but sometimes seems a deal breaker to you). I really don't see how likes traveling follows of course, isn't it way more frugal not to travel, and save the money one would have spent traveling while living up the staycation? Of course none of the above precludes wanting kids which probably really truly IS a dealbreaker.

Since I can think of little worse than rushing into a relationship for economic reasons, I think roommates are preferable if rent is a concern, or else just deal with high rent, and realize a certain amount of the paycheck is going to go to rent and oh well (as long as the paycheck can pay the rent why sweat it too much, or consider buying if it makes sense).

[Williamsmith]

Okay, so here is my rationale behind making minimalism a mandatory.

If a woman is a practicing minimalist, then we are more likely to share both values and a lifestyle.
If she is a practicing minimalist she is probably:
-Disciplined
-Has proper executive function
-Is well-read
-Is intellectual
-Not a shopper
-Not materialistic
-Not superficial
-Likes traveling
-Can clean
-Is frugal

And so on.

Practicing minimalism is an indicator of many other values and lifestyle choices.

Also, making minimalism a deal breaker prevents me from wasting my time or the time of others. It also immediately weeds out any hoarders or clutter bugs.

Not to beat a dead.....blow up doll....but one would clearly meet 7 out of the 10 requirements. Those being disciplined, not a shopper, not materialistic, not superficial, likes traveling (loves high occupancy vehicle lanes), is frugal. Can clean is also clearly not an issue because she doesn't make any messes so .....that take s care of 8/10. By deduction then I take it you are looking for a blow up doll that has cognitive skills and uses them. You see how simple it really is?

[JaneV2.0]

Not to beat a dead.....blow up doll....but one would clearly meet 7 out of the 10 requirements. Those being disciplined, not a shopper, not materialistic, not superficial, likes traveling (loves high occupancy vehicle lanes), is frugal. Can clean is also clearly not an issue because she doesn't make any messes so .....that take s care of 8/10. By deduction then I take it you are looking for a blow up doll that has cognitive skills and uses them. You see how simple it really is?

I understand Japan is working on some pretty realistic robots.

[bae]

I understand Japan is working on some pretty realistic robots.

Apparently there is considerable progress being made into putting interaction and artificial intelligence into the Real Doll platform, by a company called "Realbotix", and there are similar efforts underway for other platforms.

Siri and Alexa are about to have full date cards.

Related: I have a second-generation Aibo (ERS-210 model) that I could let go for cheap, but its main skill is chasing a small pink ball around the house.

[Williamsmith]

Apparently there is considerable progress being made into putting interaction and artificial intelligence into the Real Doll platform, by a company called "Realbotix", and there are similar efforts underway for other platforms.

Siri and Alexa are about to have full date cards.

Related: I have a second-generation Aibo (ERS-210 model) that I could let go for cheap, but its main skill is chasing a small pink ball around the house.
I like the Realbotix idea for UL but the Aibo is a fail. That is unless it can be made to fetch and sit pretty. Then it might qualify under executive function ...9/10. I'd waive the intellectual qualifier. Nobody like a mate who is smarter than them.

[Oddball]

I'm a pretty stark minimalist too, and when I was 38, about a dozen years ago, my list of deal breakers was very similar to yours (minus "likes to travel").

Since then, I've whittled it down a lot because I finally realized what my deal breakers were. They were not declarations of my principles, values, and preferences. They were reflections of the things I feared the most. People with the same deal breakers tend to have the same fears, making it harder for them to learn from each other.

Minimalism in the extreme, perhaps paradoxically, is a fear of letting go, of giving up control. I still struggle with this, but at least I know the truth about why I value minimalism. It's no longer a relationship deal breaker for me, so I guess I'm making some progress. But I no longer view it as a great virtue either.

[JaneV2.0]

... Nobody like a mate who is smarter than them.

Trying to figure out how that works...:idea:

[Ultralight]

Rent wouldn't seem so expensive if you didn't have your debt.
In a sense, yes. But my debt only costs me $245 a month.

[Ultralight]

Or overseas--I imagine there are women who would put up with a constrained life for a green card.

What you see as constrained others might -- just might! -- see as freedom. Freedom from oppressive worry about financial doomsdays, freedom from the samsara of materialism, freedom from the rat race, freedom to take an international vacation or two each year.

Isn't a big reason we live simply, practice frugality, and do minimalism to free ourselves up?

I know you loooooove all kinds of stuff. Stuff. Stuff. Stuff! But to me all the clutter would be constraining.

See how I turned that around on you?

[Ultralight]

The right third world inhabitant WILL be frugal according to UL's criteria because that is how they were raised. And, I would expect them to cook very well, wonderful ethnic dishes.

But rhey are not going to bring home the bacan and go 50/50 on rent.

I am okay with my partner making less money than me, so long as she works and goes to school. Eventually she might make as much money as me. Remember, I only make $47k.

Also: I would love to learn to cook with my partner, whether she is from the US or elsewhere. I think that can be fun!

[Ultralight]

UL...have you considered the blow up doll scenario? The only downside is that you'd have to get rid of one of the 200 items to make room for her but if you put a book in her hand, she would appear to be well read.

Dude, I cannot tell you how f---ing hard I laughed at this! LOL

[Ultralight]

I don't see how some of this follows. I think people can be selectively disciplined like very disciplined in their minimalism say and not disciplined very much in say their eating behaviors (wait isn't that you at times? I recall a thread about pancakes, of course perhaps the pancake weakness has been overcome) or any number of things that require discipline (like work, ambition, exercise etc.), and no it doesn't mean she never touches a glass of wine either (which doesn't matter to most people, but sometimes seems a deal breaker to you). I really don't see how likes traveling follows of course, isn't it way more frugal not to travel, and save the money one would have spent traveling while living up the staycation? Of course none of the above precludes wanting kids which probably really truly IS a dealbreaker.

Since I can think of little worse than rushing into a relationship for economic reasons, I think roommates are preferable if rent is a concern, or else just deal with high rent, and realize a certain amount of the paycheck is going to go to rent and oh well (as long as the paycheck can pay the rent why sweat it too much, or consider buying if it makes sense).

I am not asking for minimalist perfection.

[Ultralight]

Not to beat a dead.....blow up doll....but one would clearly meet 7 out of the 10 requirements. Those being disciplined, not a shopper, not materialistic, not superficial, likes traveling (loves high occupancy vehicle lanes), is frugal. Can clean is also clearly not an issue because she doesn't make any messes so .....that take s care of 8/10. By deduction then I take it you are looking for a blow up doll that has cognitive skills and uses them. You see how simple it really is?

8/10 is totally reasonable.

[Chicken lady]

I was serious about tumblr.

[Ultralight]

I'm a pretty stark minimalist too, and when I was 38, about a dozen years ago, my list of deal breakers was very similar to yours (minus "likes to travel").

Since then, I've whittled it down a lot because I finally realized what my deal breakers were. They were not declarations of my principles, values, and preferences. They were reflections of the things I feared the most. People with the same deal breakers tend to have the same fears, making it harder for them to learn from each other.

Minimalism in the extreme, perhaps paradoxically, is a fear of letting go, of giving up control. I still struggle with this, but at least I know the truth about why I value minimalism. It's no longer a relationship deal breaker for me, so I guess I'm making some progress. But I no longer view it as a great virtue either.

Oddball:

You have seriously intrigued me.

Please explain more.

Some friends, who are not minimalist, have suggested that I practice minimalism as a way of detaching myself from "the world" or "this society" or "this culture."

I would agree. But is this fear? I don't know. It might just be a distaste for a toxic culture. Thoughts?

[Ultralight]

Trying to figure out how that works...:idea:

Uh... I fell in love with a woman who was much smarter than me. She has a PhD in epidemiology from OSU, an MPH from University of Michigan, and a biology degree from University of North Carolina. She worked for the state doing research and now works at the CDC in Atlanta. She was an agnostic. She was frugal (even figured ways to get us into movies for free). She did not have a facebook. She was from Africa and spoke English and French (with a pretty accent!). She loved apocalyptic movies and books, just like I do. She was a world traveler having been all over Europe, Africa, and Latin America. She loved Indian food. She really liked Harlan too.

The last time I hung out with her, after a date night, we were snuggling on the couch and she kept saying: "UL, I really like you. I really, really like you. I like being with you and spending time with you. I just really like you!"

And then...

[Ultralight]

I was serious about tumblr.
I don't know what that is.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Since then, I've whittled it down a lot because I finally realized what my deal breakers were. They were not declarations of my principles, values, and preferences. They were reflections of the things I feared the most. People with the same deal breakers tend to have the same fears, making it harder for them to learn from each other.

real deal breakers are the things that break up a relationship one really hoped would last, not a wish list of things that sound nice (and sure all the obvious candidates like cheating, disagreeing on kids, etc. usually qualify).

[Chicken lady]

It's mostly smut. Don't type it in your search bar at work. but there is a lot of alternative relationship focused stuff on there. Some of it is VERY alternative, but I was serious about there being women (people) who are looking for a partner who has his sh*t together and is willing to pretty much make all the decisions in the relationship. "You lead, I follow"

it it would be a good place to find an actual intelligent, well read blow up doll.

[Ultralight]

It's mostly smut. Don't type it in your search bar at work. but there is a lot of alternative relationship focused stuff on there. Some of it is VERY alternative, but I was serious about there being women (people) who are looking for a partner who has his sh*t together and is willing to pretty much make all the decisions in the relationship. "You lead, I follow"

it it would be a good place to find an actual intelligent, well read blow up doll.

I don't understand. Why would I want to look at smut?
Am I missing something in your suggestion?

[goldensmom]

Nobody like a mate who is smarter than them.

I do. My husband is smarter than I in some areas and I am smarter than he in some areas. I have more formal education and he has more practical experience. I don't think one is really overall smarter than the other but I do think that our areas of 'expertise' compliment each other. I can appear quite dense sometimes when he is trying to explain something to me that I have no interest in understanding. He can appear quite brainless when I am trying to explain something to him but he is just plain not listening to me. It's okay.

[Chicken lady]

Mixed in with the smut are conversations between real people living real lives. One of those alternative lifestyles is the shades of grey crowd minus the absurdity of a badly written book. It might be easier to find a girl who wants that type of relationship dynamic minus the s&m (or not - your life, I don't care) than a mainstream woman who has actually made all of your lifestyle choices on her own. You will probably want to steer clear of the "man makes decisions because god said so" section. Although it is likely to be smut free.

if you edit your list to "monogamous, intelligent, well read, attractive to me, non religious, doesn't want kids, willing to clean and cook to make me happy, and happy to let me make all the decisions about your education and employment, spending, housing, travel, alcohol, etc, must like dogs" it seems like the dating pool would be much larger there.

that btw is all the information you will get from me. I do not have related dating site contacts or links or friends who can show you around. You will have to wade through the smut on your own if you chose.

[Ultralight]

Mixed in with the smut are conversations between real people living real lives. One of those alternative lifestyles is the shades of grey crowd minus the absurdity of a badly written book. It might be easier to find a girl who wants that type of relationship dynamic minus the s&m (or not - your life, I don't care) than a mainstream woman who has actually made all of your lifestyle choices on her own. You will probably want to steer clear of the "man makes decisions because god said so" section. Although it is likely to be smut free.

if you edit your list to "monogamous, intelligent, well read, attractive to me, non religious, doesn't want kids, willing to clean and cook to make me happy, and happy to let me make all the decisions about your education and employment, spending, housing, travel, alcohol, etc, must like dogs" it seems like the dating pool would be much larger there.

that btw is all the information you will get from me. I do not have related dating site contacts or links or friends who can show you around. You will have to wade through the smut on your own if you chose.

I read that book, 50 Shades. I did not like it.

[pony mom]

Plenty of new minimalists living in the areas hit by hurricanes, I'm sure.

Maybe you haven't found someone because you're not ready for a relationship yet. A mature, give/take relationship.

I know I'm not, and I'm OK with that. For now life is all about me. And the pets.

[Chicken lady]

The writing is abysmal and the relationship is as realistic as sleeping beauty. Not relevant.

[Ultralight]

Plenty of new minimalists living in the areas hit by hurricanes, I'm sure.

Was there a minimalist convention there? If there was, I hope they're okay.


Maybe you haven't found someone because you're not ready for a relationship yet. A mature, give/take relationship.

I know I'm not, and I'm OK with that. For now life is all about me. And the pets.

What makes you think I am not ready for a "mature" or "give/take" relationship?

[Ultralight]

The writing is abysmal and the relationship is as realistic as sleeping beauty. Not relevant.

I read 50 Shades because it was just so, so hugely popular with women in the US. I thought it would give me insights into the minds of women.

But I did not like the book for so many reasons. I did not find it erotic because I am a more egalitarian lover. I don't get into that dominance/rough stuff -- though I will say that the vast majority of women I have dated (even just a date or two) have told me that they like to be dominated and like it rough. Numerous female friends and acquaintances have confided in me the same thing -- they want it rough and like being dominated.
These are women from all sorts of walks of life, income brackets, educational levels, etc.

It got to the point where I found it annoying, and even said to a few: "Yeah, yeah. That is really popular now, for some reason."

[bae]

I read 50 Shades because it was just so, so hugely popular with women in the US. I thought it would give me insights into the minds of women.


Bad choice there. It wasn't particularly popular with the kink/BDSM community, that's for sure...

[JaneV2.0]

Uh... I fell in love with a woman who was much smarter than me. She has a PhD in epidemiology from OSU, an MPH from University of Michigan, and a biology degree from University of North Carolina. She worked for the state doing research and now works at the CDC in Atlanta. She was an agnostic. She was frugal (even figured ways to get us into movies for free). She did not have a facebook. She was from Africa and spoke English and French (with a pretty accent!). She loved apocalyptic movies and books, just like I do. She was a world traveler having been all over Europe, Africa, and Latin America. She loved Indian food. She really liked Harlan too.

The last time I hung out with her, after a date night, we were snuggling on the couch and she kept saying: "UL, I really like you. I really, really like you. I like being with you and spending time with you. I just really like you!"

And then...

She sounds lovely--Epidemiology! I used to subscribe to the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, hoping to spot trends...I'm sorry it didn't work out.

[iris lilies]

Uh... I fell in love with a woman who was much smarter than me. She has a PhD in epidemiology from OSU, an MPH from University of Michigan, and a biology degree from University of North Carolina. She worked for the state doing research and now works at the CDC in Atlanta. She was an agnostic. She was frugal (even figured ways to get us into movies for free). She did not have a facebook. She was from Africa and spoke English and French (with a pretty accent!). She loved apocalyptic movies and books, just like I do. She was a world traveler having been all over Europe, Africa, and Latin America. She loved Indian food. She really liked Harlan too.

The last time I hung out with her, after a date night, we were snuggling on the couch and she kept saying: "UL, I really like you. I really, really like you. I like being with you and spending time with you. I just really like you!"

And then...

and then what WHAt?.!!!

we want the rest of that story.

[Ultralight]

She sounds lovely--Epidemiology! I used to subscribe to the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, hoping to spot trends...I'm sorry it didn't work out.

She was lovely. Being around her made me swoon.

[Ultralight]

and then what WHAt?.!!!

we want the rest of that story.

Then she said: "UL, I want to have your babies."

[JaneV2.0]

I read 50 Shades because it was just so, so hugely popular with women in the US. I thought it would give me insights into the minds of women.

But I did not like the book for so many reasons. I did not find it erotic because I am a more egalitarian lover. I don't get into that dominance/rough stuff -- though I will say that the vast majority of women I have dated (even just a date or two) have told me that they like to be dominated and like it rough. Numerous female friends and acquaintances have confided in me the same thing -- they want it rough and like being dominated.
These are women from all sorts of walks of life, income brackets, educational levels, etc.

It got to the point where I found it annoying, and even said to a few: "Yeah, yeah. That is really popular now, for some reason."

Yikes! It never occurred to me to read that. I'm amazed that anyone did; its reputation (poorly written, plot-free, etc.) proceeded it. Your experience surprises me.

[bae]

Then she said: "UL, I want to have your babies."

Babies are tricky with the under-200-item lifestyle.

[Ultralight]

Babies are tricky with the under-200-item lifestyle.

I know. I told her I did not want kids. She said: "Let me think about it."

A couple days later she broke up with me. We remained friends though.

[Ultralight]

Your experience surprises me.
Why?

[iris lilies]

Then she said: "UL, I want to have your babies."


Ohhhhhh...ok. Then, that was that. Reproducing is a non negotiable, either you do it or you dont.

[Ultralight]

Ohhhhhh...ok. Then, that was that. Reproducing is a non negotiable, either you do it or you dont.

She said she wanted two. She probably could have talked me into one, if I was allowed to be a stay-at-home dad. But she did not attempt to negotiate. It was two or no deal!
That was back in 2013.

Now there would be no negotiation for one and stay-at-home-dad status. I don't want to be a parent under any circumstance now.

[Chicken lady]

Well then I'm really glad you don't have a 3 y.o.!

curious why the shift though.

[Ultralight]

Well then I'm really glad you don't have a 3 y.o.!

curious why the shift though.

I did not ever really want kids. But I was slightly open to compromise before. But I am just too damn old now, and to be quite honest I rarely meet any women who would be good moms. But this woman I mentioned, she'd have been good. She is a quality woman.

[JaneV2.0]

Why?

It's surprising to me that 1) intelligent women would give that book more than a glance, 2) they would admit it, 3) they found it a turn on, etc. etc.

[Yppej]

Idon't want to be a parent under any circumstance now.

Sounds like time for a vasectomy. Then you can at the appropriate time relay that fact to a woman, and she will know she can't work away at you if she wants children deep down, or accidentally on purpose get pregnant if you are not taking care of birth control but she is.

I had a tubal ligation when I did not want any more children.

[sweetana3]

I agree with Yppej. My hubby did it for us when we decided 35 years ago that we did not want any kids. No mistakes then.

[Ultralight]

It's surprising to me that 1) intelligent women would give that book more than a glance, 2) they would admit it, 3) they found it a turn on, etc. etc.

Some of these women were otherwise very intelligent and highly educated. And the ones I was dating told me because they were probing me to see if I was a dom.

One went so far as to say: "Could you be my Christian Grey?"

I almost vomited.

I don't have anything against consenting adults getting their BDSM freak on.
But I am more the highly attentive, giving, sensual, and egalitarian lover.

The number of women who asked me to be "very rough" with them is appalling. I tell them I am not into that stuff.

[Ultralight]

Sounds like time for a vasectomy. Then you can at the appropriate time relay that fact to a woman, and she will know she can't work away at you if she wants children deep down, or accidentally on purpose get pregnant if you are not taking care of birth control but she is.

I had a tubal ligation when I did not want any more children.

V-secs are correlated with early onset dementia, a nasty form of aphasia.

[Chicken lady]

So, you seem to be attracting submissive women. I still think you would have better luck shopping the genre for the non- masochistic subset than you seem to have in the general population. You come across as dominant (which is not interchangeable with sadistic) to them because you give the impression of wanting to control everything. Do you? (Doesn't mean you aren't someone who wants to consider their input, just that you prefer that what you decide goes.)

[Ultralight]

So, you seem to be attracting submissive women. I still think you would have better luck shopping the genre for the non- masochistic subset than you seem to have in the general population. You come across as dominant (which is not interchangeable with sadistic) to them because you give the impression of wanting to control everything. Do you? (Doesn't mean you aren't someone who wants to consider their input, just that you prefer that what you decide goes.)
1. What makes you think I want to control everything and everyone? Did I ever say that?
2. I think there is a gender-based double standard here. If I was a woman with lots of requirements and high standards you'd be like: "You go, girl! Don't settle! You know what you deserve!"

[Chicken lady]

When I read the things you post, you give me the impression of strongly wanting to control your environment, experiences, and relationships.

i would react exactly the same way if you were a woman, except that I would think your odds of finding a submissive personality were lower and your odds of finding a partner who did not want kids or believe in god were higher.

[Ultralight]

So, you seem to be attracting submissive women. I still think you would have better luck shopping the genre for the non- masochistic subset than you seem to have in the general population. You come across as dominant (which is not interchangeable with sadistic) to them because you give the impression of wanting to control everything. Do you? (Doesn't mean you aren't someone who wants to consider their input, just that you prefer that what you decide goes.)

Many of these women would be insulted if you called them submissive. Some of them are single moms who are head of the household, dictators of their domain. Others are successful career women in various professions.

To assume they are submissive might miss the point. They told me that they "spend all day being dominant at work" or they "spend all their time running the show at home" and that they just want to shut off the dominance and assertiveness when they get into the bedroom. It is apparently a relief to them to do so.

Proceed to judge them now.

[Ultralight]

environment

Yes, for the most part. Don't we all? Think about what a grappling match it is with your husband. You want to hoard the place, we wants some space to relax.


experiences

Yes, for the most part. Again, don't we all?


relationships

I want my share of input and influence.

But what I want mostly is a woman who is simply on the same page as me for a life partner.


i would react exactly the same way if you were a woman, except that I would think your odds of finding a submissive personality were lower and your odds of finding a partner who did not want kids or believe in god were higher.

React the same way how?

[Tybee]

Boy, I would have been SO creeped out if I were dating and someone said, :let me be your Christian Grey." I think a restraining order might cross my mind.

I always try to heed the wisdom of tennis ace Bill Tilden, who said, "Never change a winning game; always change a losing game."

So if you are getting more than one person desiring something from you that you find aberrant and repulsive, then maybe drop back and say, "hey, I have a losing game here, what changes can I try so that I stop getting this result?"

[catherine]

So, you seem to be attracting submissive women.

I don't get that from UA at all, frankly. He may have strong opinions about what he wants, but I think he values women who also have strong opinions, and he's simply looking for a good match of strong minds, which he hasn't found yet. That's my humble opinion.

[Williamsmith]

I can honesty say I never created a list of desirable traits. But then I do everything instinctively. To use an example or to....some of the guys I golf with carry a range finder. They would never think of making a shot until they used their device to determine the exact distance to the pin. Me, I just stare at the pin and my mind tells me what club to use.

I guess what I telling you is I can't relate to the list of qualifications like it's a job interview. Just stare at the pin. Everything will work out. If it's a square peg move on. You just might be one of the people that needs a large sample size before committing.

[razz]

Boy oh Boy, this whole thread is an education. I am like Williamsmith. Keep it simple. Glad I met DH and wonderful life together with the usual ups and downs. Now I enjoy peace and quiet with family, friends, my faith and my community. That is enough!

[herbgeek]

I did have a detailed list of traits I wanted, but I was 21 when I created that. Then I met my husband, he had almost nothing on that list, but I decided to toss out the list. Funny though, life isn't static, he wasn't static, he wound up becoming much of what I really wanted, and the rest that I didn't get was really superficial and not something I consider important anymore. I'm glad I didn't get what I had on that list when I was 21, I've changed so much since then, and what I wanted them would not make me happy today.

[JaneV2.0]

V-secs are correlated with early onset dementia, a nasty form of aphasia.

I haven't heard that, and wonder about the supposed mechanism. I Googled this, and found there was a slight association with a very rare disease:
Finally, the characteristics of the PPA cohort seem unlikely if a strong causal relationship exists between vasectomy and PPA. Vasectomy is a relatively common procedure, yet PPA remains a very rare disease. Clearly many men undergo vasectomy without developing PPA. Perhaps most importantly, the original PPA cohort was divided almost evenly between men and women (59 men/61 women).


I had a tubal ligation forty-something years ago, with absolutely no ill effects.

[Alan]

V-secs are correlated with early onset dementia, a nasty form of aphasia.I had a vasectomy over 30 years ago and since that time have heard lots of excuses from men afraid of the procedure. Be a man UL, walk the walk.

[ApatheticNoMore]

2. I think there is a gender-based double standard here. If I was a woman with lots of requirements and high standards you'd be like: "You go, girl! Don't settle! You know what you deserve!"]

no, we'd be like dear ... your 38 ... if you were a woman (and I am most certainly referring to a woman that doesn't want kids - so need to bring that complication in).

[ApatheticNoMore]

I had a vasectomy over 30 years ago and since that time have heard lots of excuses from men afraid of the procedure. Be a man UL, walk the walk.

+1 or UL secretly wants kids someday :)

I mean if it's just some very low liklihood complication so what, hormonal birth control slighly increases risks of hormonal cancer, it's not risk free either. This hardly stops women from taking it (but how it is for women since they actually would have to birth the kids, is they weigh the risks of birth control which might exist versus the risk of pregnancy which is not risk free either - women still die from it and a lot in this lovely county, except for a few cool places like California maternal deaths surpass anywhere in the developed world - and then birth control is almost always lower risk - that assuming one doesn't want to have kids).

[Chicken lady]

Not judging anybody. What you described actually fits a large number of "submissive" women - I'm using it in the form that it is used in the BDSM community, not in the social conditioning sense.

many of these women have high powered jobs and make decisions all day and they just want to come home and not be in charge - it's a weight to carry for them, and they want to hand it off. I will bet that those who have looked into the lifestyle would not be insulted - from their words they appear to have already self-identified.

react the same way in terms of my typed responses, I am not operating from a "gender based standard" when I reply to you. I am operating from a "responding to words I read and what they seem to mean" standard.

[Oddball]

Oddball:

You have seriously intrigued me.

Please explain more.

Some friends, who are not minimalist, have suggested that I practice minimalism as a way of detaching myself from "the world" or "this society" or "this culture."

I would agree. But is this fear? I don't know. It might just be a distaste for a toxic culture. Thoughts?
A distaste for a toxic culture is one thing, and it warrants whatever amount of self-moderation you feel you need.

But I also agree with your friends that a certain level of self-moderation can become a detachment from the mainstream. And yes, this is fear.

I have done many things to detach from our culture. I got snipped 20 years ago so as never to have kids. I don't watch TV or use social media. I abstain from meat, alcohol, smoking, and drugs. I'm agnostic and I'm skeptical of modern science, especially medicine, much of which is funded by special interests. I choose not to own a car or a house. I don't even have a microwave oven on an iPhone. Further, I found out a few years ago that I'm something called an INFJ, which made me feel really special, since it's allegedly the rarest of the rare personality types, whatever that means.

All of this has made me feel pretty smug and arrogant. I like to hold people to my own standards, which of course almost no one can meet. This is where distaste for a culture crosses into alienation and fear. It took me decades to realize that my superiority complex was really a masked inferiority complex. I'm so afraid of not measuring up to the world's standards (even though I don't like them) that I opt out and make my own.

There's a name for this disease. It's called perfectionism, and it's just as debilitating as any addiction to drugs or alcohol or codependent relationships.

One way to identify fear is to compare your motives with those behind the behaviors you reject. I was shocked when I realized I'd become what I thought I was transcending. In the same way that atheism is the flip side (not the opposite) of blind faith, in the same way that pure intellectualism is the flip side of irrationality (both are an attempt to escape reality rather than accept it), extreme minimalism is the flip side of materialism (both are an obsession with stuff). Extreme minimalism is also a close sibling to hoarding, the latter being a fear of loss and the former a fear of losing control.

It's fine to be a minimalist. I still enjoy being one even though I now realize why I became one. I also still enjoy abstaining from all the things I abstain from. It is possible, and necessary, to reintegrate with the world. It's also possible to do so without compromising healthful values and comfortable practices.

But at the very least, it requires a change of attitude and a shift in awareness. So I try no longer to expect other people to meet my standards. When you go there, you enter the control freak zone. I am a control freak, a perfectionist, and an idealist, but I'm trying to be a better balanced one, if that's possible.

Not saying you're one too, but if any of this is resonating, it might be something to think about. Because perfectionism is deep fear.

This, BTW, is the lesson of the Steppenwolf character Harry Haller, the 48-year-old perfectionist and misanthrope who rents a single room and detests all the toxic indulgences of his culture: radio, dancing, jazz, and general merriment. Ditto Thoreau at Walden.

The desire for compatibility in a partner is understandable, even reasonable and sensible. But it's also, like minimalism, a way of seeking safety, to avoid conflict and other intimidating things and thus miss out on learning.

Wanting to be with someone who's on the same page as you is a lot to ask if you ever want to learn from and grow with each other. How about just someone who's in the same book? Or on the same shelf? Or in the same library? There might be a bigger world out there.

[bae]

I don't have anything against consenting adults getting their BDSM freak on.
But I am more the highly attentive, giving, sensual, and egalitarian lover.


Sometimes being attentive to the other person's desires/needs and giving them what they wish may call for engaging in activities that appear "rough" or "freaky". It's just bodies though, and people having fun, as long as there is consent.

As to egalitarian, I think it's a mistake to view submission/domination as non-egalitarian. Power-exchange play is much more nuanced and complex than that.

I saw a wonderful film the other night, "La cérémonie", a documentary about Catherine Robbe-Grillet and her relationships with her circle of friends, which had some great conversations on the topic.

[jp1]

Babies are tricky with the under-200-item lifestyle.

I'm curious whether UL's 200 things is per household or per person. If per household a baby would be a problem. But if he could buy an additional 200 things upon the baby's birth it would probably be ok.

[Williamsmith]

I had a vasectomy over 30 years ago and since that time have heard lots of excuses from men afraid of the procedure. Be a man UL, walk the walk.

One of my friends had a bad experience. His testicles swelled up the size of cantaloupes. Very painful and he had to keep ice cold beer between his legs for a couple days. The only time I can recall that drinking beer didn't take away the pain.

And another guy who had one , got a divorce and remarried a woman who wanted kids. So.....he went back and had them hooked back up. Duh?

Me, I kinda wonder what it would be like to be in my seventies and be a new father. That has to be a rush. So I'll keep my prospects.

[Ultralight]

I don't get that from UA at all, frankly. He may have strong opinions about what he wants, but I think he values women who also have strong opinions, and he's simply looking for a good match of strong minds, which he hasn't found yet. That's my humble opinion.

Thank you.

[Ultralight]

I'm curious whether UL's 200 things is per household or per person. If per household a baby would be a problem. But if he could buy an additional 200 things upon the baby's birth it would probably be ok.

Harlan is allowed ten possessions.

[bae]

Me, I kinda wonder what it would be like to be in my seventies and be a new father. That has to be a rush. So I'll keep my prospects.

As part of my overall preparedness efforts, I wish to maintain my ability to repopulate the Earth after the asteroid hits, or whatnot.

[Ultralight]

First off, let me tell you how much I appreciate your contributions to this thread and for sharing so much!


A distaste for a toxic culture is one thing, and it warrants whatever amount of self-moderation you feel you need.

I don't like this toxic culture, so I try to stay away from most of it. Detaching keeps the blade off my wrist.


But I also agree with your friends that a certain level of self-moderation can become a detachment from the mainstream. And yes, this is fear.

Some things rightfully make us feel fear.


I have done many things to detach from our culture. I got snipped 20 years ago so as never to have kids. I don't watch TV or use social media. I abstain from meat, alcohol, smoking, and drugs. I'm agnostic and I'm skeptical of modern science, especially medicine, much of which is funded by special interests. I choose not to own a car or a house. I don't even have a microwave oven on an iPhone. Further, I found out a few years ago that I'm something called an INFJ, which made me feel really special, since it's allegedly the rarest of the rare personality types, whatever that means.

You sound like a cool dude! I am also an INFJ (though I don't put much stock in it).


All of this has made me feel pretty smug and arrogant. I like to hold people to my own standards, which of course almost no one can meet. This is where distaste for a culture crosses into alienation and fear. It took me decades to realize that my superiority complex was really a masked inferiority complex. I'm so afraid of not measuring up to the world's standards (even though I don't like them) that I opt out and make my own.

I am grossed out by most of the world's standards.


There's a name for this disease. It's called perfectionism, and it's just as debilitating as any addiction to drugs or alcohol or codependent relationships.

I think I have dabbled in perfectionism. But it does not suit me. I found out quickly that it kind of made me regress rather than progress in most scenarios.


One way to identify fear is to compare your motives with those behind the behaviors you reject. I was shocked when I realized I'd become what I thought I was transcending. In the same way that atheism is the flip side (not the opposite) of blind faith, in the same way that pure intellectualism is the flip side of irrationality (both are an attempt to escape reality rather than accept it), extreme minimalism is the flip side of materialism (both are an obsession with stuff). Extreme minimalism is also a close sibling to hoarding, the latter being a fear of loss and the former a fear of losing control.

I am dubious about much of your above statements.


It's fine to be a minimalist. I still enjoy being one even though I now realize why I became one. I also still enjoy abstaining from all the things I abstain from. It is possible, and necessary, to reintegrate with the world. It's also possible to do so without compromising healthful values and comfortable practices.

Being a minimalist sure is fine!


But at the very least, it requires a change of attitude and a shift in awareness. So I try no longer to expect other people to meet my standards. When you go there, you enter the control freak zone. I am a control freak, a perfectionist, and an idealist, but I'm trying to be a better balanced one, if that's possible.

I don't expect all or even most people to meet my standards. But I would like a few in my life who come close. And if I was romantic and partnered with one of these few I would possibly be happier and content and experience joy and intimacy.


Not saying you're one too, but if any of this is resonating, it might be something to think about. Because perfectionism is deep fear.

I dunno...


This, BTW, is the lesson of the Steppenwolf character Harry Haller, the 48-year-old perfectionist and misanthrope who rents a single room and detests all the toxic indulgences of his culture: radio, dancing, jazz, and general merriment. Ditto Thoreau at Walden.

Steppenwolf and Walden are two of my favorite books!


The desire for compatibility in a partner is understandable, even reasonable and sensible. But it's also, like minimalism, a way of seeking safety, to avoid conflict and other intimidating things and thus miss out on learning.

Not following...


Wanting to be with someone who's on the same page as you is a lot to ask if you ever want to learn from and grow with each other. How about just someone who's in the same book? Or on the same shelf? Or in the same library? There might be a bigger world out there.

Worth thinking about...

[iris lilies]

First off, let me tell you how much I appreciate your contributions to this thread and for sharing so much!...



You sound like a cool dude! I am also an INFJ...

...

So many special snowflakes on this side of the room! I am IN something something but can never remember if I am the very special brand of snowflake that some here seem to think is a badge of honor, or if I am something else.

[Chicken lady]

Lol iris lilies!

my 6 y.o.s:" hey! I have those Pokémon shoes! Wanna play Gaga ball?"

[Ultralight]

One of my friends had a bad experience. His testicles swelled up the size of cantaloupes. Very painful and he had to keep ice cold beer between his legs for a couple days. The only time I can recall that drinking beer didn't take away the pain.



I know two men whom this happened to!

[Ultralight]

So many special snowflakes on this side of the room! I am IN something something but can never remember if I am the very special brand of snowflake that some here seem to think is a badge of honor, or if I am something else.

Snowflakes!

[ApatheticNoMore]

Hmm DRINKING alcohol and taking almost enough nsaids to kill me is how I dealt with the pain of birth control procedures. Frankly they should have prescribed opiates, it was more than warranted from the high level of pain. But then compared to childbirth probably a pinprick.

[Ultralight]

Hmm DRINKING alcohol and taking almost enough nsaids to kill me is how I dealt with the pain of birth control procedures. Frankly they should have prescribed opiates, it was more than warranted from the high level of pain. But then compared to childbirth probably a pinprick.

Women are very privileged when it comes to having a smorgasbord of birth control options. I am sorry to hear yours was tough.

[Alan]

One of my friends had a bad experience. His testicles swelled up the size of cantaloupes. Very painful and he had to keep ice cold beer between his legs for a couple days.


I know two men whom this happened to!
Reminds me of my fisherman friend who always catches one thiiiiisssssss big, but somehow always gets away.

It's a small incision, mine was closed with two stitches. The only problem I had was from stepping over a puddle of water the next day, pulled a stitch, a few minutes of discomfort and a pinprick (pun intended) of blood.

I'll say again UL, if you don't want kids but do want to enjoy an active sex life, take responsibility, man up.

[ApatheticNoMore]

one can certainly read about the scary worst possible scenarios in any medical procedure ... if one likes scary stories I guess. As for people I know, I know a woman who lied about being on birth control to get pregnant with another kid, true she was at least married to the guy, but he didn't want another kid, she really wanted another kid and so he got one anyway.

[Yppej]

Every method of birth control for women carries some risks, and the surgery for women is more serious than the surgery for men. A man who does not want children but will not accept the risks of using birth control himself, instead wanting to impose those risks on the woman, is no egalitarian.

[JaneV2.0]

Every method of birth control for women carries some risks, and the surgery for women is more serious than the surgery for men. A man who does not want children but will not accept the risks of using birth control himself, instead wanting to impose those risks on the woman, is no egalitarian.

I think the person who is most serious about not reproducing should get snipped. And that could be both partners. I was never willing to let someone else have that level of control over me.

[nswef]

I agree Jane. I had a tubal ligation at 29 because I knew if I didn't want children with my husband who was wonderful and still is, I wouldn't want them ever. If something had happened to me, he would still have the choice to have children with someone else. Now we are both 68 and glad of my choice.

[Williamsmith]

Reminds me of my fisherman friend who always catches one thiiiiisssssss big, but somehow always gets away.

It's a small incision, mine was closed with two stitches. The only problem I had was from stepping over a puddle of water the next day, pulled a stitch, a few minutes of discomfort and a pinprick (pun intended) of blood.

I'll say again UL, if you don't want kids but do want to enjoy an active sex life, take responsibility, man up.

Did I say cantaloupes? I meant watermelons!!

[Ultralight]

Every method of birth control for women carries some risks, and the surgery for women is more serious than the surgery for men. A man who does not want children but will not accept the risks of using birth control himself, instead wanting to impose those risks on the woman, is no egalitarian.

Uh... dude.

All two methods of birth control for men come with risks -- any surgery has risks, such as infection. And condoms are only 85% effective.

Women have hormonal IUD, copper IUD, the depo shot, the pill, the patch, the nuva ring, tubals, etc.

Women are very privileged in this regard. Their methods are temporary, low risk, various, and they get to control them. This is one instance where women really have the privilege.

And couldn't you say that any woman who expects the man to handle the contraception is no egalitarian either?

[Yppej]

You're the one who doesn't want kids, yet you want to shift the risks of contraception. All the methods you listed have risks. If a woman was the one who didn't want children yet she expected the man to carry the birth control risks even though he would prefer to have children your argument would be valid, but that is not the case with you.

[rosarugosa]

I think the person who is most serious about not reproducing should get snipped. And that could be both partners. I was never willing to let someone else have that level of control over me.

Jane, this hits the nail right on the head as far as I'm concerned. I had a tubal ligation when I was 21 because I knew I didn't want any kids and I was quite emphatic about it. DH was my boyfriend at the time. A counselor at the clinic asked what would happen if I ended up marrying someone who wanted kids, and I said I had no business marrying someone who wanted kids. I think there are some areas where partners need to be well-aligned, and reproduction is one of them.




Wanting to be with someone who's on the same page as you is a lot to ask if you ever want to learn from and grow with each other. How about just someone who's in the same book? Or on the same shelf? Or in the same library? There might be a bigger world out there.

The above being said, I don't think a couple needs to be perfectly aligned on every single thing, and I really like this library analogy. I think for me, no kids and no religion were pretty non-negotiable, though.

[Chicken lady]

Here is a thought! Ultralite, you could have 100% effective, risk free birth control by practicing abstinence until you find a woman who actually doesn't want kids and has taken her own permanent steps!

because what you're saying is "I really really don't want kids. But sex is important enough to me that I'm willing to gamble when the odds are 85% in my favor" aaaand, you're gambling with someone else's life! (I'm referring to the potential child, not the woman)

[Teacher Terry]

UL" women are NOT privileged when it comes to BC options. Do you know how many side effects and complications come from them? My BF's 19 yo daughter died from a rare liver disease after being on the pill for a short amount of time. This pill is known to cause this and so now there is a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer but it won't bring anybody back that lost their lives so young. I am sick of men not being willing to take responsibility especially if they do not want kids. Ugh!

[ApatheticNoMore]

The variety is largely an illusion, they are mostly except for copper IUDs and sterilization all just hormones, in a thousand different delivery methods, but all depending on how well a woman handles hormonal birth control (it's like having 10 varieties of coke in the store or something, ok but it's all just sugar water). They do talk about male birth control pills now though. So how about that for a 3rd option for men (expect much whining from males on how it has side effects to take hormonal birth control - you don't say ...).

Besides until recently (until the ACA mandates on birth control coverage) many women's options were limited by being unable to afford anything but the cheapest birth control they could get (can't afford an IUD so take what you can get from planned parenthood etc.).

[catherine]

The variety is largely an illusion, they are mostly except for copper IUDs and sterilization all just hormones, in a thousand different delivery methods, but all depending on how well a woman handles hormonal birth control (it's like having 10 varieties of coke in the store or something, ok but it's all just sugar water).

Absolutely. Hormones are hormones, and if screwing with your hormones is the best way to prevent pregnancy, then all the other non-hormonal methods are less effective. So take your chances. I didn't want to mess up my hormones, so I used one of the other methods, and hello, DS#1. IUDs can cause cramping and/or become dislocated.

Of course, if you're male, the grass is greener when the woman is the responsible one, and also the one who will pay the dearest for a mess-up.

[bae]

Here is a thought! Ultralite, you could have 100% effective, risk free birth control by practicing abstinence until you find a woman who actually doesn't want kids and has taken her own permanent steps!


There are of course plenty of ways to engage in adult activities that don't involve risk of pregnancy, even without going in the "50 Shades" direction. Abstinence isn't required.

[iris lilies]

As part of my overall preparedness efforts, I wish to maintain my ability to repopulate the Earth after the asteroid hits, or whatnot.
This is very funny. And probably true.

[bae]

This is very funny. And probably true.

I was greatly influenced in my thinking by poor Burgess Meridith's fate in "Time Enough At Last":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAxARJyaTEA

[JaneV2.0]

I'm not sure I ever saw that episode, but I'm very happy my eyesight still allows me to read without glasses...

[iris lilies]

While I agree with the idea that hormonal birth control is a big deal each and every day in the life of someone who takes it, I will not in good conscience rag on someone like UL who does not want to offer up his parts to the medical world. I distrust them too much, and any simple procedure has risks.

i did not want children but did not expect DH to have a vasectomy, partly because he wasnt opposed to having children, partly because I cant in good conscience dictate to him medical procedures he should have. His body his choice, you know.

Since I didnt have a tubal L. why should he have something done?

Off and on over the years I thought "iris, you should have that thing done" but time slipped by and besides, I seldom visited a physician, and that would require a physician visit, and etc.

I am grateful to have the number of children I want:0

[Chicken lady]

I'm not saying it doesn't have risks, I'm saying he is making the choice to accept a 15% risk of fatherhood. It is not his partner's job to lower that risk on his behalf. For herself, sure if she chooses, but not for him.

[Oddball]

This is what I had done 20 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Scalpel_vasectomy

It was not painless, but it worked great and I have no regrets. If you are a man and don't want kids, you must take 100 percent responsibility. You can abstain or sterilize. Take your pick. No excuses.

[iris lilies]

This is what I had done 20 years ago:

...You can abstain or sterilize......

Or add child support payments to your chains of educational loans.

[Tybee]

Or add child support payments to your chains of educational loans.

But it's not a question of money and child support, it is fathering a child that you actively do not want--that is a bad thing to do to someone, in this case the child.

[iris lilies]

But it's not a question of money and child support, it is fathering a child that you actively do not want--that is a bad thing to do to someone, in this case the child.
I know, that is the real issue, but child support payments may be the stick.

[sweetana3]

And another thing to add is that with the DNA tests out there, you cannot vanish from a child's life. A first cousin of my husband finally got info on his parents after 40 years of searching. Ancestry records and DNA tests will eliminate closed adoptions and secret child issues in the future whether the parents want to be found or not.

[Ultralight]

Here is a thought! Ultralite, you could have 100% effective, risk free birth control by practicing abstinence until you find a woman who actually doesn't want kids and has taken her own permanent steps!

This is not a bad idea. I could also only have sexual relations with women over 50.

[Ultralight]

UL" women are NOT privileged when it comes to BC options. Do you know how many side effects and complications come from them? My BF's 19 yo daughter died from a rare liver disease after being on the pill for a short amount of time.

That liver disease is rare. You said it yourself. Most women who use hormonal birth control do just fine and you know this. You. Know. This.

Imagine, really imagine, if men had 17 different kinds of affordable and reversible birth control options. This would cause a whole new wave of feminism.

Imagine if men had all the birth control options women had but women only had two, and one was a permanent surgery. Women would be screaming at the top of their lungs: "Male privilege! Male privilege!"

And in that imaginary scenario I would agree with them!

But you are so privileged with your smorgasbord of birth control options that you don't even know you are privileged. Now that is some serious privilege!

[Ultralight]

Also, back to the 50 Shades topic. I went on a date Saturday night. She confided in me she likes to be dominated.

[Chicken lady]

And yet you don't think you give off that vibe. Interesting.

50 might be too young. (There were two girls in my grade at school whose mothers were over 50 when they were conceived. Both thought they were through menopause.

[Ultralight]

And yet you don't think you give off that vibe. Interesting.

50 might be too young. (There were two girls in my grade at school whose mothers were over 50 when they were conceived. Both thought they were through menopause.

That is exceedingly rare. But I am open to dating a woman up to age 65 or so. Aging is a normal process. To me, a woman 40 or 50 or 60 is totally desirable!

[Chicken lady]

There were 200 people in my graduating class, so anecdotally, 1%. Significantly different from 0%. All I'm saying.

[Ultralight]

Something else that you all might be forgetting:

The vast majority of women have literally zero interest in dating me at all -- not even one date for a free meal! Then when you factor in all the women that are not interested after one date the number is even fewer who'd be interested in dating me.

Then factor in all the women who I go on a date with and realize they are not a good match. I politely tell them and move on -- with no physical contact between us beyond a handshake or hug.

So I am not some stone cold pimp out here moving through the ladies like a yacht through the ocean. I struggle to get first dates anymore! Remember, I am a 38 year old man. I have hit "The Wall!" I am balding, out of shape, and I only make $49k a year. I openly state that I don't want kids, that I am an anti-theist, and that I am a minimalist with only about 200 things. Think how many women this would promptly weed out!

Though I will say this, the women interested in me tend to be black, 30-45, professional, educated, assertive, and religious and/or spiritual.

And it finally clicked on Saturday night why this is. It surprises me as much as it would anyone else. It is my sense of humor. Black women almost invariably find me funny. And really funny!

My date and I were at an African restaurant and I was repeatedly cracking her up. People from other tables kept looking over their shoulders at us.

Then it dawned on me: This almost always happens when I am dating black women. My zany, dry, and deadpan but wildly inappropriate humor seems to work well for them. This makes me feel fortunate, I will say.

[Chicken lady]

You left "submissive" off your list. Apparently that bugs you more than "religious"

Also, please stop telling us you find older women attractive like it's some kind of surprise or virtue. As an "older" woman, It's starting to sound a lot like "some of my best friends are black."

louis ck says your best years are going to start soon.

[iris lilies]

That liver disease is rare. You said it yourself. Most women who use hormonal birth control do just fine and you know this. You. Know. This.

Imagine, really imagine, if men had 17 different kinds of affordable and reversible birth control options. This would cause a whole new wave of feminism.

Imagine if men had all the birth control options women had but women only had two, and one was a permanent surgery. Women would be screaming at the top of their lungs: "Male privilege! Male privilege!"

And in that imaginary scenario I would agree with them!

But you are so privileged with your smorgasbord of birth control options that you don't even know you are privileged. Now that is some serious privilege!

Dude, the women who "do just fine" on hormonal birth control have decided to put up with little effects on their bodies, the gain is worth the pain. While I am sure there are women on hormonal birth control who have 0 discernible side effects, there are just as many with noticeable effects.

And then, there are the number of women who have tried it and found hormonal treatments onorous or untenable.

I agree with ANM that "17" kinds of birth control are really only a couple, since all of the hormonal drugs work in similar ways.

[Tybee]

I think the problem with the illusion of the birth control options is that the damage that the hormonal ones do does not show up until later, in the form of cancer.

I have always thought this was why men did not develop a hormonal form of birth control for men.They would prefer to leave those bodily risks with the women.

[Tybee]

Also, please stop telling us you find older women attractive like it's some kind of surprise or virtue. As an "older" woman, It's starting to sound a lot like "some of my best friends are black."

louis ck says your best years are going to start soon.

Agreed. It kind of comes off as offensive and condescending, as though you were doing older women a favor.

[JaneV2.0]

The hormonal methods available to me back in the day made me so grouchy that I figured the way they worked is that no one would want to shtup the harridan I became. I was delighted to be rid of them.

[ToomuchStuff]

Ancestry records and DNA tests will eliminate closed adoptions and secret child issues in the future whether the parents want to be found or not.

Tests are going to have to be better then those ones they advertise for those on TV. That said, I doubt it will help in cases where an attacker isn't caught. It certainly doesn't stop the issue of would you want to know and sometimes finding out is worse then not knowing.

[Tybee]

If you adamantly do not want children, the "you" of either sex should either refrain from having sex or get sterilized. That is my opinion, anyway.

[Teacher Terry]

UL: you are avoiding taking responsibility. Yes Hannah's disease was rare but no consolation to her family as they approach the 6 years of missing her. Yet vasectomy issues are rare but you aren't willing to take a chance with your life. Talk about hypocrisy and double standards. Male privilege>:(

[bae]

This is not a bad idea. I could also only have sexual relations with women over 50.

My wife is 53, and has not yet had menopause, so based on my sample size of one, prudence is still called for.

[ApatheticNoMore]

UL: you are avoiding taking responsibility. Yes Hannah's disease was rare but no consolation to her family as they approach the 6 years of missing her. Yet vasectomy issues are rare but you aren't willing to take a chance with your life. Talk about hypocrisy and double standards.

It's perfectly fine to argue people shouldn't worry too much about rare complications from medical procedures or medicines if they really decide they are otherwise quite beneficial (at least if there is no way to determine that they might be at uniquely high risk due to family history or something), but this was after "testicals swelled up to the size of a cantaloupe" comments, so talk about worrying about rare complications ... from what is actually considered a VERY minor medical procedure. It's all double standards. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things who or if both takes responsibility for birth control (if it's her then lucky for him), but the general immaturity of the arguments being made about females being endlessly privileged etc. ... is it's own thing.

---

And for all the efforts women go to protect themselves from the risk of pregnancy from intercourse, and they may enjoy it mind you, probably more than half of them don't even orgasm from it, intercourse is the *ultimate* male sex experience (for most heterosexual males), women often get off more from the type of things that don't even carry much of a pregnancy risk (really zero pretty much).

[bae]

...intercourse is the *ultimate* male sex experience (for most heterosexual males)...

Assuredly not.

"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

[bae]

And for all the efforts women go to protect themselves from the risk of pregnancy from intercourse, ....

Pregnancy isn't the only issue, of course. STDs are pretty commonplace these days.

[LDAHL]

My wife is 53, and has not yet had menopause, so based on my sample size of one, prudence is still called for.

In my youth I was taught to treat every gun as if it were loaded and every woman as if she were fertile. A guy who never wishes to have children should get a vasectomy. It's not that bad after the first day or two.

[Ultralight]

You left "submissive" off your list. Apparently that bugs you more than "religious"

Also, please stop telling us you find older women attractive like it's some kind of surprise or virtue. As an "older" woman, It's starting to sound a lot like "some of my best friends are black."

louis ck says your best years are going to start soon.

Hmmmm... is it snowing? I think I see a snowflake.

If you think it sounds like I am espousing a virtue or you are surprised, I would say that is on you. I will NOT apologize for liking women ages 21-65.

[Ultralight]

Agreed. It kind of comes off as offensive and condescending, as though you were doing older women a favor.

Again, you being offended is on you. I like who I like.

I am not saying anything risque. I am merely pointing out on threads about dating and/or my romantic life, that I am quite happy to date women that are older than me, even significantly.

I hear a lot of women complain that men or society is "age-ist."

Now you got me saying: "F--- those societal standards!"
And you complain about that? Wow.


And how would you all feel if I said "I am tired of you all talking about your spouses! It is sounding like you are saying you are better or more lovable than me because I am still a single divorcee and you are married!"?

[Chicken lady]

I'm not asking you to apologize. I'm don't particularly care what type of women interest you (actually, strike that, i don't care what interests you at all as I am not interested in you, so go enjoy your life dude). I am telling you that the manner in which you keep expressing your appreciation for a subgroup of women is offensive to at least part of that subgroup.

As you have pointed out that your potential dating pool is small, you might want to avoid shrinking it further. Or not. Maybe you are only attracted to older women who might have some thought or concern that you might not be.

In which case they might be tempted to lie to you.

Oh wait, that happened already.

[Ultralight]

intercourse is the *ultimate* male sex experience (for most heterosexual males), .

I would agree that for most males p in v intercourse is the ultimate. Heck, I have even heard it called doing "the ultimate." haha

But I will say this is actually not the case for me. I prefer oral.

[Ultralight]

I'm not asking you to apologize. I'm don't particularly care what type of women interest you (actually, strike that, i don't care what interests you at all as I am not interested in you, so go enjoy your life dude). I am telling you that the manner in which you keep expressing your appreciation for a subgroup of women is offensive to at least part of that subgroup.

As you have pointed out that your potential dating pool is small, you might want to avoid shrinking it further. Or not. Maybe you are only attracted to older women who might have some thought or concern that you might not be.

In which case they might be tempted to lie to you.

Oh wait, that happened already.

47 sounds more appealing that 40 to me. So her lie, which she justified by saying "most men..." did her no good with me.

[Chicken lady]

Feeling a need to point out that you are not conforming to a social norm does not show indifference to that norm, it shows that you are assuming that everyone you are talking to has bought into the norm and you want to be sure that they know you have not - which gives more significance to the norm, not less.

this coming from someone who honestly misses social norms and sometimes says things that offend people because of it. For example, i have had to learn that it is not ok to identify students to other teachers as "short black hair, semi curly, brown skin, about this tall" even though it is ok to identify students as "red hair about this long, pale skin and freckles." I also don't go around telling people I don't care what color hair my students have. Oh wait, I mean skin. If you can't understand the difference in those two statements, you are unlikely to understand my original response about the way you keep telling us how you like older women.

[Chicken lady]

And had she told you her actual age and had you say something like "47 sounds more appealing than 40 to me." I would guess the odds of it putting her off would have been higher than the odds of it having a positive or no effect.

i am actually trying to help you here. Although I have no idea why. Maybe you bring out my maternal instinct. Which is not as warm and fuzzy as it sounds since my biological children tell people they were raised by wolves.

[Ultralight]

And had she told you her actual age and had you say something like "47 sounds more appealing than 40 to me." I would guess the odds of it putting her off would have been higher than the odds of it having a positive or no effect.

We don't get to choose why other people like us, CL.

Do I like it that the main reason women seem to like me is that I have a steady job? No. I wish it were for my stunning good looks.

[Chicken lady]

No, but sometimes we modify our behavior in small ways in order to improve the chances of people liking us.

if someone told you you looked really bad in a particular shirt - would you be less likely to wear it on first dates?

[Chicken lady]

The job is more likely to last, so don't waste your wish.

[Ultralight]

The job is more likely to last, so don't waste your wish.
LOL! Good point.

[Ultralight]

Shocker of the day:
I am still not having much luck in romance.

This past Saturday I was stood up for a date even after having corresponded with this woman for several days.

Recently I met a lovely atheist woman at an atheist event -- she was so cool! She was a former Methodist pastor turned hardcore atheist! We talked and flirted. I got her number. Then I called and she did not pick up or return my voicemail.

I also went on a date with a woman who talked incessantly about her ex-husband.

Good times!

[iris lilies]

Shocker of the day:
I am still not having much luck in romance.

This past Saturday I was stood up for a date even after having corresponded with this woman for several days.

Recently I met a lovely atheist woman at an atheist event -- she was so cool! She was a former Methodist pastor turned hardcore atheist! We talked and flirted. I got her number. Then I called and she did not pick up or return my voicemail.

I also went on a date with a woman who talked incessantly about her ex-husband.

Good times!

That is too bad. But I hope you will consider texting her something like this “I understand if you dont want to get to know me outside of the aetheist group. No problem! I hope you can continue to attend our events and enjoy the company of the group.” You still want her to come around because you enjoy her company. That CAN grow i to so ething, but it may not and that is fine, too.

[Ultralight]

That is too bad. But I hope you will consider texting her something like this “I understand if you dont want to get to know me outside of the aetheist group. No problem! I hope you can continue to attend our events and enjoy the company of the group.” You still want her to come around because you enjoy her company. That CAN grow i to so ething, but it may not and that is fine, too.

I don't have a cell phone. So I can't text. I am sure she'll be around.

My best guess is that some guy -- probably an atheist alpha male -- swooped in and got to her first. Any time a single woman shows up to an atheist event she promptly has a wide choice of the men to choose from.

[The Storyteller]

Wait... there are atheist events? What does one do at an atheist event?

BTW, I'm an atheist. My wife is a lifelong believer. We've been married 34 years and still doing well. I'm glad I don't share your criteria. :)

[iris lilies]

Wait... there are atheist events? What does one do at an atheist event?

BTW, I'm an atheist. My wife is a lifelong believer. We've been married 34 years and still doing well. I'm glad I don't share your criteria. :)

I know, we have a mixed marriage here, too. Since I don't spend much time and energy thinking about what happens to me after I die, it isn't important to me that DH holds a different internalized value than I do. He doesn't seem to be concerned that I will not be joining him in The Next Life. We don't talk about it, we are very much centered in the Now and in the immediate future.

I thin k some people wonder 'how can you live with someone who holds such a radically different basic value?' but this issue just doesn't come up in my married life. We have talked about choices for funerals and body disposals upon death, but when it comes to the spirit, I guess we consider each other out there on our own.

[catherine]

I thin k some people wonder 'how can you live with someone who holds such a radically different basic value?' but this issue just doesn't come up in my married life. We have talked about choices for funerals and body disposals upon death, but when it comes to the spirit, I guess we consider each other out there on our own.

I think it's much easier to co-exist with different religious belief systems if there are no children involved. Even if there are children involved, though, there is typically one partner who is less devout or committed to their own belief, and will compromise on the raising of the children. I've known a lot of Christian-Jewish, Catholic-Protestant, Non-believer-Believer couples and they've worked it out.

In general, I think it's important not to try to match up perfectly--how can you? I tell DH often that I don't want to be joined at the hip with him. He can do his bagpiping and I'll do my gardening. I'll eat my Indian vegetarian food, and he'll eat his Bubba burgers. I can't think of anything worse than being married to a clone of me. Sometimes I see men with my interests and temperament and I immediately think, "I could never be married to that person."

[SteveinMN]

I can't think of anything worse than being married to a clone of me. Sometimes I see men with my interests and temperament and I immediately think, "I could never be married to that person."
I dunno. I always thought that would be kind of cool. But if something divided our opinions, the arguments could be interesting: "How could you be so unreasonable?!?" :D

Seriously, UL, I'm sorry things are not working out better for you. The phrase "kiss a lot of frogs" comes to mind. (Actually, the phrase "law of attraction" does, too.) I've been stood up, not gotten called back, etc. I once went on a first date which was a walk around a local lake; it took about 3/4 of the way around the lake and we both figured out nothing was going to happen. It's disheartening, especially when it starts looking like a batting slump in baseball.

But keep at it. Is there a way a mutual acquaintance in the atheist's group could get IL's suggested message to the former pastor? Better to encourage her appearance there than have her miss out on the group because it might seem awkward. At least you get to spend that time together.

[The Storyteller]

I think it's much easier to co-exist with different religious belief systems if there are no children involved.

Is atheism a belief system? :)

I do think for many it is, but those folks are as much anti-religion as atheist. For me, it is simply a lack of belief. I lack a belief in a deity of any kind, just like I lack a belief in magic, astrology, unicorns, or fairies. Nothing against them. They just don't exist.

BTW. we have three. Kids, I mean. :D

My son and oldest daughter are devout Catholics, my youngest daughter is a pagan. My wife is a Baptist. She considered marrying a minister, but married me, instead.

[Tenngal]

Shocker of the day:
I am still not having much luck in romance.

This past Saturday I was stood up for a date even after having corresponded with this woman for several days.

Recently I met a lovely atheist woman at an atheist event -- she was so cool! She was a former Methodist pastor turned hardcore atheist! We talked and flirted. I got her number. Then I called and she did not pick up or return my voicemail.

I also went on a date with a woman who talked incessantly about her ex-husband.

Good times!

I believe some of these people who make dates and do not show have been overcome by anxiety.

Is it one of your requirements that they are also atheist?

"talked about ex-husband the whole time" well, what can I say, this shows lack of class.

If you were here, I'd fix you up with my single sister near Atlanta.............

[Ultralight]

Wait... there are atheist events? What does one do at an atheist event?

BTW, I'm an atheist. My wife is a lifelong believer. We've been married 34 years and still doing well. I'm glad I don't share your criteria. :)


I date Christians regularly -- way more than I date atheists. It is very rare that I date an atheist. I'm open to dating Muslims, Jews, Scientologists, etc.

Atheist events usually involve sacrificing goats while listen to Ozzy records backwards, perhaps the occasional drinking of blood, maybe a round or two of Ouija board play. Or if it is a low-key event we'll just clandestinely worship Satan by playing Dungeons & Dragons.

[Ultralight]

I believe some of these people who make dates and do not show have been overcome by anxiety.

Is it one of your requirements that they are also atheist?

"talked about ex-husband the whole time" well, what can I say, this shows lack of class.

If you were here, I'd fix you up with my single sister near Atlanta.............

Tell me about her!

[Ultralight]

I realized recently that the kind of brains I would be attracted to is not usually in the type of body I am usually attracted to.

So I really need to be much less superficial!

[The Storyteller]

Atheist events usually involve sacrificing goats while listen to Ozzy records backwards, perhaps the occasional drinking of blood, maybe a round or two of Ouija board play. Or if it is a low-key event we'll just clandestinely worship Satan by playing Dungeons & Dragons.

:D :D :D

[Yppej]

Then I called and she did not pick up or return my voicemail.

Good times!

This behavior is encouraged by books like The Rules which say a woman must not come across as too needy and available. If she gave you her number she may just want you to demonstrate some persistence.

I am going to start a new thread on this so as not to hijack this one.

[Ultralight]

This behavior is encouraged by books like The Rules which say a woman must not come across as too needy and available. If she gave you her number she may just want you to demonstrate some persistence.

I am going to start a new thread on this so as not to hijack this one.
Hijack at will. I don't mind.

[Williamsmith]

I feel like if I were a psychiatrist, I could make an interesting study of this thread and ULs minimalism deal breaker. But since I’m not, it just confuses the hell of of me. I never considered finding a mate such a work project. Easy for me to say, I know but I did go through a notable number of relationships before I landed and stuck.

Maybe Im just superficial but my only real first criteria was ...is she easy to look at? After that deeply intellectual vetting process.....Id learn whether we could be romantic or just friends.

But just asking.....how long does a friendship have to last to make it worthwhile? One date, two dates, a month, a year, a lifetime? Isn’t it possible to have many relationships strung together be equal to one longstanding partnership?

[Ultralight]

But just asking.....how long does a friendship have to last to make it worthwhile? One date, two dates, a month, a year, a lifetime? Isn’t it possible to have many relationships strung together be equal to one longstanding partnership?

Good questions here.

I'd like to have a life partner -- one where we make dinner together in the evening and talk about our day, one where we can snuggle in the morning after waking up and at night before falling asleep. I'd like to have my partner's picture hung up in my office at work. It'd be nice to have someone to go on walks at the park with (in addition to Harlan, of course).

Sure, I could possibly get this from a bunch of strung together shorter relationships. But:
1. That would probably put me at higher risk of STDs.
2. I want some security (and to provide some security to someone else). When you are alone with no one to count on all manner of unfortunate things can happen. If you get sick you have to take care of yourself. If you get injured you have to recover on your own. If you choke on a hard boiled egg you probably just die alone in your apartment.

[Williamsmith]

Good questions here.

I'd like to have a life partner -- one where we make dinner together in the evening and talk about our day, one where we can snuggle in the morning after waking up and at night before falling asleep. I'd like to have my partner's picture hung up in my office at work. It'd be nice to have someone to go on walks at the park with (in addition to Harlan, of course).

Sure, I could possibly get this from a bunch of strung together shorter relationships. But:
1. That would probably put me at higher risk of STDs.
2. I want some security (and to provide some security to someone else). When you are alone with no one to count on all manner of unfortunate things can happen. If you get sick you have to take care of yourself. If you get injured you have to recover on your own. If you choke on a hard boiled egg you probably just die alone in your apartment.

My life partner and I NEVER make dinner together. I let my wife drone on about her frustrations at work with autistic and emotional support kids and try to interject a “wow” or “omg” at the appropriate time. I tilt my head to the left and right and look her in the eye once in awhile just to reassure her I’m not thinking about something else.

My wife hates pictures of herself and so I never hung one up. We do take walks together but refer to above description of dinner table talk.

STDs are a small price to pay for variety.

A life partnership exposes you to insecurity. When they hurt, you hurt. When they get sued, you get sued. When they go nuts, you try to hold things together. When they pay taxes, you pay taxes. And vice versa.

All manner of unfortunate things happen.....period. If you get sick it’s nice that someone goes and gets you a ginger ale or does the laundry for a week but most humans get mighty tired of tending after someone and some just plain leave.

If choke on a hard boiled egg, you lifelong partner will likely be shopping at Macy’s when it happens.

[Ultralight]

My life partner and I NEVER make dinner together. I let my wife drone on about her frustrations at work with autistic and emotional support kids and try to interject a “wow” or “omg” at the appropriate time. I tilt my head to the left and right and look her in the eye once in awhile just to reassure her I’m not thinking about something else.

My wife hates pictures of herself and so I never hung one up. We do take walks together but refer to above description of dinner table talk.

STDs are a small price to pay for variety.

A life partnership exposes you to insecurity. When they hurt, you hurt. When they get sued, you get sued. When they go nuts, you try to hold things together. When they pay taxes, you pay taxes. And vice versa.

All manner of unfortunate things happen.....period. If you get sick it’s nice that someone goes and gets you a ginger ale or does the laundry for a week but most humans get mighty tired of tending after someone and some just plain leave.

If choke on a hard boiled egg, you lifelong partner will likely be shopping at Macy’s when it happens.

Well, your picture of marriage looks really tempting!

Also: I get it: I am booed, screwed, and tattooed no matter what.

[catherine]

My son just had a very painful break-up. It was just a 6-month relationship but it started out with such fireworks we all thought this was it. Won't go into details, but she broke up with him last month and he was devastated.

Turns out that her initial enthusiasm was fueled by the fact that my son "checked all the boxes" on her list. But when it came to brass tax, that wasn't enough. There was still a certain je ne sais quoi missing. So she dropped him. And she actually even told him that she's rewriting her list.

I am not quite as cynical as Willimsmith about marriage, although I know he's being very tongue-in-cheek and all signs point to the fact that he treasures his relationship--because it's real and unassuming. I hate to sound like a mom, but the right person is out there for you, but she might not check all your boxes.

Throw out the list. Trust the je ne sais quoi.

[Ultralight]

My son just had a very painful break-up. It was just a 6-month relationship but it started out with such fireworks we all thought this was it. Won't go into details, but she broke up with him last month and he was devastated.

Turns out that her initial enthusiasm was fueled by the fact that my son "checked all the boxes" on her list. But when it came to brass tax, that wasn't enough. There was still a certain je ne sais quoi missing. So she dropped him. And she actually even told him that she's rewriting her list.

I am not quite as cynical as Willimsmith about marriage, although I know he's being very tongue-in-cheek and all signs point to the fact that he treasures his relationship--because it's real and unassuming. I hate to sound like a mom, but the right person is out there for you, but she might not check all your boxes.

Throw out the list. Trust the je ne sais quoi.

Sorry to hear about that situation with your son.

I don't speak Greek though.

I too think someone is out there for me. Friends have told me my problem is that I am focused a lot on looks -- and a certain type of looks. Which is true...

I will explain more in a moment. But I need to take care of an errand.

[Teacher Terry]

WS: you are so funny:)) Any relationship takes work. There will be times where you will want to strangle your partner. I have had serial marriages. The first 3 years, the second 22 years and now we are together for 19 and married 14. This marriage has far surpassed the others in satisfaction. My Mom took care of my Dad for 14 long years and yes it got old. However, they were married for a lifetime and she saw it as her responsibility. He lived way longer then the doctors ever predicted he would and that is probably because of the care he got.

[Ultralight]

Okay, lemme try this again:

This is what I prefer visually:

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1999&stc=1

This is what women who share my way of life and my philosophies tend to look like:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2000&stc=1

Both women are public figures. The first is a life coach.
The second woman is a well-know minimalist. That stuff on her bed is most of what she owns, by the way.

[Ultralight]

STDs are a small price to pay for variety.

Dude. This isn't the 1970s anymore. Back then you might get the clap -- then after a week of antibiotics you were good as new.

Now we have diseases that can kill yo azz! AIDS, Heps of various letters, HPV that causes cancer, multi-resistant forms of VD, and so on.

Can't mess around like we're in Studio 54, bro!

[Williamsmith]

Dude. This isn't the 1970s anymore. Back then you might get the clap -- then after a week of antibiotics you were good as new.

Now we have diseases that can kill yo azz! AIDS, Heps of various letters, HPV that causes cancer, multi-resistant forms of VD, and so on.

Can't mess around like we're in Studio 54, bro!

You got me totally wrong UL......#studio54sucks. In 1977 I couldn’t be found within a mile of a disco nightclub. I would have been flying a confederate battle flag at a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert or getting buzzed on second hand smoke at a Doobie Brothers venue. Which means I was much more likely to kiss a girl that was a snuff dipper or eating Doritos until 3am than I was any of those alphabetic plagues you list.

You got my sympathies ....I wouldn’t want to tiptoe through the minefield you describe here. Nope. I don’t want to start over......not unless I can timetravel back and get my 18 year old body back.....less the stupidity.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Both women are public figures. The first is a life coach.
The second woman is a well-know minimalist. That stuff on her bed is most of what she owns, by the way.

people have their preferences, but as for bodies they are both look like fit thin women. I suppose the latter might be too thin for some people's tastes (minimalism I guess - feed her a burger) so if all the women you like intellectually are nothing but skin and bones, I guess that's an odd problem to have as that look (almost thin enough to model clothes) isn't that easily achieved at least not without certain genetics (she works out as well for sure).

[catherine]

Dude. This isn't the 1970s anymore. Back then you might get the clap -- then after a week of antibiotics you were good as new.

Now we have diseases that can kill yo azz! AIDS, Heps of various letters, HPV that causes cancer, multi-resistant forms of VD, and so on.

Can't mess around like we're in Studio 54, bro!

I agree.. my DD is always calling me and talking about this person that has HPV and that person who has something else. I think it's a very real concern.

[Ultralight]

people have their preferences, but as for bodies they are both look like fit thin women. I suppose the latter might be too thin for some people's tastes (minimalism I guess - feed her a burger) so if all the women you like intellectually are nothing but skin and bones, I guess that's an odd problem to have as that look (almost thin enough to model clothes) isn't that easily achieved at least not without certain genetics (she works out as well for sure).

I like anything from thin to thick to plus size. So long as she is healthy.

[bae]

I like anything from thin to thick to plus size. So long as she is healthy.

Lady #2 doesn't look happy, so that'd rule her out in my initial assessment. Perhaps it's simply a bad portrait.

[Ultralight]

I agree.. my DD is always calling me and talking about this person that has HPV and that person who has something else. I think it's a very real concern.

Other than catching a yeast infection from a woman (then giving it to two others who gave it back to me after treatment) I have been lucky.

Though I am sure I got at least one strain of HPV in my wilder days. I get an oral cancer screening every six months from the dentist.

[Ultralight]

Lady #2 doesn't look happy, so that'd rule her out in my initial assessment. Perhaps it's simply a bad portrait.

Yeah, just a bad pic. She has an upbeat personality.

[SteveinMN]

Turns out that her initial enthusiasm was fueled by the fact that my son "checked all the boxes" on her list. But when it came to brass tax, that wasn't enough. There was still a certain je ne sais quoi missing. So she dropped him. And she actually even told him that she's rewriting her list.
My first wife checked all the boxes. They were the wrong boxes. :(

Not only was there no durable je ne sais quoi; some things I had minimized on the list turned out to be critical. Sometimes you have to experience cold to know what heat is. I rewrote my list before dating seriously again.

DW checks most of the boxes but I've come to believe that no one person should be expected to check all the boxes. The only other person I know who checked most of the boxes for me certainly left a few (different!) blank boxes -- as I did for her (why we're not together; that and her on-again-off-again boyfriend).


Throw out the list. Trust the je ne sais quoi.
I suggest keeping the list. In the rush of a new relationship (especially after a monumental breakup or a long solo spell) it's easy to minimize or completely lose sight of who you are and what you want in a relationship. The list will remind you. The list cannot register that chemistry that long-term partners need to have. But there's a way to build a sustainable fire and there's just throwing logs onto the fire. Understanding/agreement on a range of issues (money, religion, kids, politics, etc.) goes a long way to giving you both the freedom to keep nourishing the fire that started.

[iris lilies]

Studio 54. I am laughing.

[Ultralight]

Studio 54. I am laughing.

Great memories?

[iris lilies]

Great memories?
Hahaha, Here in flyover country we could only read about Studio 54. But my close friend was a party girl in NYC back in the day and yeah, she sat at the Studio 54 bar with celebs.

Then, there was a our local trans celebrity person Teri Toye from small town Iowa who made it big in NYC back inStudo 54 days. She modeled for Halston and more avant guard designers and ran around woth Warhol, Liza, etc. Not all of us are rubes, just some of us.

[Ultralight]

Hahaha, Here in flyover country we could only read about Studio 54. But my close friend was a party girl in NYC back in the day and yeah, she sat at the Studio 54 bar with celebs.

Then, there was a our local trans celebrity person Teri Toye from small town Iowa who made it big in NYC back inStudo 54 days. She modeled for Halston and more avant guard designers and ran around woth Warhol, Liza, etc. Not all of us are rubes, just some of us.

Kinda cool! :)

I love disco. I would have likely made a pilgrimage and tried to get into 54.

[Yppej]

If you have Sirius XM satellite radio you can relive those days by listening to Channel 54.

At my age I am wary of men who finally want to settle down because they've reached the age where they envision needing a nurse.

[Yppej]

Okay, lemme try this again:

This is what I prefer visually:

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1999&stc=1

This is what women who share my way of life and my philosophies tend to look like:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2000&stc=1

Both women are public figures. The first is a life coach.
The second woman is a well-know minimalist. That stuff on her bed is most of what she owns, by the way.

If you have a racial preference for African Americans, your checklist may be working against that. What are the racial demographics of atheism?

I associate minimalism to the extreme degree you take it with people who are tired of the excess from affluenza. People of color are on average of lower socioeconomic status and less likely to suffer from affluenza.

If I were descended from slaves who only owned 200 objects I might see that lifestyle as a step back.

[Ultralight]

If you have a racial preference for African Americans, your checklist may be working against that. What are the racial demographics of atheism?

I associate minimalism to the extreme degree you take it with people who are tired of the excess from affluenza. People of color are on average of lower socioeconomic status and less likely to suffer from affluenza.

If I were descended from slaves who only owned 200 objects I might see that lifestyle as a step back.

I think African American women are one of the most -- if not the most -- religious demographics in America.

[Ultralight]

If you have Sirius XM satellite radio you can relive those days by listening to Channel 54.

At my age I am wary of men who finally want to settle down because they've reached the age where they envision needing a nurse.

I am not really sure what satellite radio is, or how you receive it. But thanks for the suggestion! I really LOVE disco!

[Yppej]

You have to pay a subscription fee. I get it in my car.

[Ultralight]

The woman I was seeing from IL is coming to spend Thanksgiving with me, the long weekend. It is likely she'll want a commitment...

[bae]

The woman I was seeing from IL is coming to spend Thanksgiving with me, the long weekend. It is likely she'll want a commitment...

You mean sharing the leftover turkey? That's....serious stuff.

[Ultralight]

You mean sharing the leftover turkey? That's....serious stuff.
She and I will be spending Thanksgiving together... just the two of us.

And black Friday and the rest of the weekend.

I actually like her... and I am beginning to like her more. It makes me feel unsteady in a way.

[Ultralight]

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2011&stc=1
This is she and I.

[rosarugosa]

Well you both look very happy!

[bae]

Well you both look very happy!

UL has a bit of the "I hate smartphones and selfies" grin though :-)

[iris lilies]

So cute, the both of you! She is gorgeous.

But I will not touch that minimalist thing. You are who you are, and if that is your essential self, how can you be expected to live with a “normal” amount of stuff?

Have you talked about this with her? I wonder what her ideas and approach would be.

[catherine]

You guys are adorable!

[Ultralight]

UL has a bit of the "I hate smartphones and selfies" grin though :-)

She said exactly the same thing. haha
Good eye!

[Williamsmith]

She and I will be spending Thanksgiving together... just the two of us.

And black Friday and the rest of the weekend.

I actually like her... and I am beginning to like her more. It makes me feel unsteady in a way.

I’m no expert but I’d say you have a little “commitment” problem. I’ve heard that turkey can make you weak willed. Better fake like you are eating it and spit most of it in the garbage while she ain’t lookin.

[Ultralight]

So cute, the both of you! She is gorgeous.

But I will not touch that minimalist thing. You are who you are, and if that is your essential self, how can you be expected to live with a “normal” amount of stuff?

Have you talked about this with her? I wonder what her ideas and approach would be.

She is also interested in Minimalism. She was reading Joshua Becker's blog way before she met me.

She is not "extreme" but she is decluttering and trying to find her click-point. I have seen much of her apartment and it does not appear cluttered.

Her mother is a hoarder and she cannot stand it.

[Ultralight]

I’m no expert but I’d say you have a little “commitment” problem. I’ve heard that turkey can make you weak willed. Better fake like you are eating it and spit most of it in the garbage while she ain’t lookin.

Excellent point!

[iris lilies]

Does she want ro reproduce?

[Ultralight]

Does she want ro reproduce?

She is on the fence about it. But that activity is off-limits anyway, by her directive.

[Williamsmith]

UL, I don’t know why you don’t just go and get the vasectomy. Seems like a perfect solution to your reproductive issues. They can always hook you back up again should you change your mind.

[iris lilies]

UL, I don’t know why you don’t just go and get the vasectomy. Seems like a perfect solution to your reproductive issues. They can always hook you back up again should you change your mind.
No, they cant always reverse that procedures, not by a long shot.

[Ultralight]

UL, I don’t know why you don’t just go and get the vasectomy. Seems like a perfect solution to your reproductive issues. They can always hook you back up again should you change your mind.

ED and aphasia are associated with V-secs. I don't want either of those...

[Williamsmith]

ED and aphasia are associated with V-secs. I don't want either of those...

Johns Hopkins Medicine disputes this on their website but they do say that if you think you will get ED.....then you could talk yourself into it. Given your fear of contracting these ....I guess you are right not to get the procedure.

[Ultralight]

Johns Hopkins Medicine disputes this on their website but they do say that if you think you will get ED.....then you could talk yourself into it. Given your fear of contracting these ....I guess you are right not to get the procedure.

Link?

[Ultralight]

Well, my ladyfriend will be here tomorrow to spend the long weekend with me.

[Williamsmith]

Link?

Better late than never....

Refer to “Will vascectomy affect my sex life?” Third paragraph beginning with “Some men....”.

http://malefertility.jhu.edu/Vasectomy.php

Oh yeah....enjoy your weekend. She looks like a wonderful person.

[Ultralight]

Looks like another romance has fizzled out...

And yes, minimalism appears to be a major factor. She said, though interested in minimalism, she certainly was not a minimalist.

I said: "If minimalism was a religion, I'd be a pastor."

She said: "If minimalism was a religion, I'd be a Christmas/Easter/Mother's Day Churchgoer."

There were other reasons -- she'd really like a more "normal" guy who watches sports, drinks beer, eats a more standard American diet, and who has more middle class/suburban lifestyle aspirations.

[Lainey]

Ouch, I'm sure that stings, but always better to know about these differences earlier rather than later. Good for you for continuing to get out there and mingle..

[Float On]

Apparently you weren't willing to yield either so she drew the line on what she'd accept as your compromise. Sorry. Have you tried this site yet? It claims it's the best for minimalists....https://www.meetmindful.com/minimalist-guide-to-finding-your-soulmate/#

[Ultralight]

Apparently you weren't willing to yield either so she drew the line on what she'd accept as your compromise. Sorry. Have you tried this site yet? It claims it's the best for minimalists....https://www.meetmindful.com/minimalist-guide-to-finding-your-soulmate/#

Interesting link. I read the article. The part about being lovable without distortion was especially intriguing.

[Ultralight]

I wonder if a person has a finite number of break-ups they are emotionally equipped to go through before they are "relationship broken?"

[ApatheticNoMore]

There is no set number, but it likely has a cost and is not be free. Or in any area of life where we begin with sincere hopes, it does get harder to keep picking ourselves up again and again from the letdown.

[Yppej]

I think the longer people live alone the more set they become in their ways.

[Ultralight]

There is no set number, but it likely has a cost and is not be free. Or in any area of life where we begin with sincere hopes, it does get harder to keep picking ourselves up again and again from the letdown.

I feel like I just don't have the fuel in the tank to break up with anyone ever again. I feel tapped out. Now, if someone breaks up with me, I can cope pretty well. My heart mends.

But having to hurt someone else's feelings with a break up... that uses all my grit and willpower. And I am getting too old for this sh*t!

Whereas when I was young and I met someone who I thought had potential I would just work diligently at changing them (sometimes with good results, sometimes with not good results).

As I get older, I find myself not trying to change someone I am incompatible with but rather I find myself figuring out ways to live my life around them.

[Ultralight]

I think the longer people live alone the more set they become in their ways.

I can mostly agree with you on this.