Is childhood truly terrifying or just a culture of fear? [Archive]

razz

9-20-17, 7:18am

There are so many reports of the fragile mental health of those attending post-secondary education and how colleges and universities are having to enlarge their mental health services at great cost. Why is this happening and needed?
Are we treating childhood as a disease and protecting our children to the point that they never discover their own strength and resilience?
This CBC http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/protecting-kids-from-childhood-1.4297653 article explores some of this.

Quotes:
The latest contretemps over children not receiving 24/7 supervision in Canada comes from Vancouver, where Adrian Crook, a single father of five, found himself under investigation by B.C.'s Ministry of Children and Family Development.

His offence? Allowing his four oldest children — ages seven through 11 — to ride the bus unsupervised. Crook took pains to ensure his children were prepared for the 45-minute transit ride to their school, going along with them at the beginning to make sure they were capable of handling the trips themselves...

Crook learned (well, we all sort of learned) that it is apparently verboten for children under the age of 10 to be left alone for any amount of time in B.C., whether indoors or outdoors. Moreover, two provinces — Manitoba and New Brunswick — prohibit leaving children under the age of 12 unsupervised. Ontario law goes further, prohibiting leaving children under the age of 16 alone...

It is a far cry from the situation in Japan. Akiko Kitamura Suzuki is well familiar with letting children take public transportation unsupervised. A Japanese teacher in Tokyo, Suzuki is the mother of two sons, ages four and seven, and the elder of the two began taking the train alone this year.

"A little nervous" is how Suzuki described both she and her son to me in a recent interview, although he soon became a confident rider.

Getting her son to take the train alone was not simply a matter of dropping him off at the station and hoping for the best. Rather, as is common practice, Suzuki rode with her son on a few occasions before shadowing him from greater distances — much like Crook did with his children. "When he didn't need to check back with me about anything, he finally took the train alone," recounts Suzuki...

Incessant helicopter parenting and/or state intervention deprives children of important learning experiences and instead fosters a sense of learned helplessness. Rather than following the Japanese model and encouraging children to confidently take on new tasks, the trend in Canada is to leave them smothered and fearful."

Tybee

9-20-17, 8:38am

My opinion is that having children ages 7-11 riding a public bus alone is child neglect. It would depend on your local law, of course. When I raised my children in Illinois, 11 was the minimum age they could be left home alone. 11-12 was when we started to leave them for short periods--like 45 minutes while we went somewhere out of the house. I knew some mothers of latch key kids about 10 years earlier than that, in the early 80's, who had 6 year olds going home to an empty house while they worked. To me, that was child neglect.

I would not let them go out on a public bus without an adult at the ages you are describing.

This was very different than how I was raised--we wandered all over the neighborhood; I baby sat at the age of 7, etc. etc.

I don't think, based on child development principles, that we were more mature or the world was safer. I think we were neglected. I know for example that I was approached by child molesters.

I decided that my children, at those ages, were not going to be exposed to the kind of neglect and risks that I was exposed to.

I think encountering the child molesters had a lot more to do with leaving me fearful than being protected would have, if that makes sense.

JaneV2.0

9-20-17, 9:18am

I rambled all over my tiny beach community at a tender age; never had any trouble. Of course, I was accompanied by my dog--a very protective Doberman. I'm pretty dismayed that children these days are so cosseted, and I don't wonder that colleges are reaping the results of it.

iris lilies

9-20-17, 9:29am

I wandered all over my small town at an older age, say, 8-10. I could go where I wanted to go, but didnt actually go all that far, probably half a mile at most from home.

When I was a kid I was approached by a predator in his car who offered me a quarter to get in his car. My mother was horrified when I came home and told her of this, and called the local sherriff of course. Never found the guy. I wasnt afraid of this man, I guess befause he sat in his car while talking, there was never any attempt to touch me.

I would not want my children of the same age running around here in my neighborhood. NO WAY, absolutely not! Roving gangs of wannabe thugs from the public housing projects nearby are threats. But in that same small town today, it would be ok.

Zoe Girl

9-20-17, 9:37am

I run licensed childcare so i am on the conservative side at work for sure, sometimes i disagree. Soooo glad i don't care for diaper age kids though. The providers have to log every diaper change and take a lot of steps in the process.

I would be nervous, i also grew up in a place with no busses. Our choir takes the bus to events as a group, that is elementary age. It works really well and there are adults, but not as many as you would think. Meanwhile when kids are done with an after school club i make all the parents come to the lobby and sign the kid out, except a couple 5th graders that i have talked to parents about. We try to transition the olders, and i will tell parents if they are not acting like they can manage it. Over the years i have had more issues with not enough supervison, kids left on the playground at 6:30 am in winter, not picked up after school, allowed to not come to after care they are registered for to play outside unsupervised. One parent who didn't sivn up for care this year because i wouldn't let kids ages 6-9 walk home alone at 6 pm or let a young teenager pick them up. It is actually rules i have to follow, but i feel good about them.

Tybee

9-20-17, 9:46am

Zoe Girl

9-20-17, 10:01am

Tybee, that is very wise! My one staff who stuggles with everything as an adult was neglected and abused, and my meditation group is filled with people in recovery. They also come from backgrounds that were more neglectful, hands off, etc. My oldest had a LOT of neglected friends, no supervision, support in school, dental care, and no one taught them to drive. They are late 20s and some didn't really get out of it.

I raised my kids to be very independent, but i specifically taught them the skills. Simple example, they are all introverted so i taught them to order in restaurants, let them practice with me even when we played, and had to coach and encourage things like asking for a refill or a fork. Their dad after we were split would get angry when they didn't know how to do things and if he was the only parent i think they would be struggling more. They wouldn't have learned to interview for jobs or talk to teachers or take the bus in highschool. The difference is that when they learn something you let go of that.

Lainey

9-20-17, 10:29am

Zoe Girl,
That's an important sentence: "I raised my kids to be very independent, but I specifically taught them the skills."

That's the difference. It's good to not encourage being overly fearful of the big wide world, but it's wise to also be realistic and let them understand what they might encounter.

I read a story recently of a single mother who was in the hospital for a procedure. She had 3 children who were waiting out front for her to finish her paperwork and be released. (I think a family friend had dropped them off and had just gone inside). The 3 children had been in a training about dealing with strangers. In this case, the children were approached by 3 adults - a female and 2 males - who asked them to come with them because someone needed their help. The children were skeptical because they were taught that normal adults would ask other adults, not children, for help. The children refused to budge despite the 3 adults continuing to coax them. Finally the parent came outside and the 3 adults took off. Her children told her what had just happened and she realized they'd probably just avoided an abduction.

When I think back to my own childhood, especially with the Catholic school training that you were always expected to obey adults, I would have been one of the kids who would have gone off with the 3 adults. So should kids be taught to be fearful? No. Should they be trained to be cautious and have boundaries? Yes.

ToomuchStuff

9-20-17, 10:34am

This is the part I disagree with:
"Are we treating childhood as a disease and protecting our children to the point that they never discover their own strength and resilience?"
Spend any time in recovery rooms and you find that many, many children are neglected and abused, and often grow up to abuse alcohol and drugs. These are the children who never have the chance to discover their own strength and resilience because they never had a childhood.

I don't think the incidence of college students using mental health resources has any correlation with protective or over protective childhoods.

I would say the correlation has more to do with our push to get mental health, and its stigmata separated.
There are certainly kids who are overprotected, as well as those who grow up too fast. (thinking of a friend who grew up with a UC LEO father and a drug/alcoholic mother) as well as those who I would think would be more rounded then some (myself, abducted as a kid, dealt with a serial killer as a kid, few more experiences). I always felt like childhood was a switch. I knew I could no longer be/act as one at points, and knew there was really no such thing as security, although back then I only knew it as safety.

ApatheticNoMore

9-20-17, 10:53am

Not being able or knowing how to take the bus/train anywhere alone (not at any age until many years after I'd been driving) is one reason why I could not wait to drive (doesn't seem the case nowdays), it was the ONLY way I knew to get about, so bam 15 1/2 and in driving school as fast as one can (and it's not safer really)

BikingLady

9-20-17, 3:47pm

Oh I just don't know anymore. Being 10 in 1971(me) was far different than 10 in 1995(son) and I am sure 10 in 2017 is very different.

When my son took drivers ed I had never seen him cross a road the city , ride a bike to a friend's as we lived country. I remember feeling how wrong this had been to isolate him from those learning experiences and now he was behind the wheel.

Teacher Terry

9-20-17, 4:40pm

I totally agree with Tybee. As a social worker in 1988 it was illegal for a kid to be left home alone until age 12. What I disagree with now is parents being told they can't let their kids play outside in front of their own home without an adult. That is stupid.

dmc

9-20-17, 5:07pm

I guess I'm getting old. Like most my age, I'm 60, we were turned loose on the neighborhood at a early age. Before the age of 10 we were expected to get out of the house and play. That generally meant playing baseball in a field, or running around the woods with our BB guns. We also all carried pocket knives and had bows and arrows. Nobody lost an eye, there were some cuts and bruises, and a accational broken bone. Nobody died or was taken.

When my boys were young, the main thing we made sure of was that they were good swimmers. We lived on the water and I knew there was no way you were going to keep young boys from getting in. The houses were a little closer than when I grew up and I did buy a window or two from a missed catch, but they did fine.

The neglect I see is when kids spend hours a day in front of a tv, Xbox, or phone. They sit around and get fat and out of shape.

Chicken lady

9-20-17, 5:38pm

When I was 7 I was riding my bike two miles alone to my friend's house. When my older Dd was 14, she was riding her bike with a friend 5 miles to swim in a local lake. His bike broke down, so she rode half a mile to the fire station, borrowed some tools, and fixed it. At 15, she was riding her bike, alone, 9 miles to volunteer at the food bank.

my younger Dd has anxiety issues. When she was 14, she rode to school in the car with me and since I worked there, checked in at lunch. Her big adventure that year was walking two blocks with a friend at lunch time, buying an ice cream cone, and walking back.

pinkytoe

9-20-17, 5:50pm

I read in today's paper that adolescents now are much less likely to be interested in driving or dating as previous generations were. Many, especially in upper middle class families, are content to stay home with their families or in their rooms on their devices. It is so weird to me since as a teen, we couldn't wait to get out of the house. Rights of passage which in retrospect were probably dangerous but gave us some grit. I note that my next door neighbors two teen girls always do things with their parents and don't seem to have other friends. My SIL is still babying her 27yo son and I feel for him as he has very serious anxiety issues. I was determined to raise DD to be independent as I didn't like the way DH's family cloistered all their kids even into adulthood. She left the house at 18 and became a responsible adult without a hitch.

BikingLady

9-20-17, 6:07pm

Pinktoe, Sometimes those serious anxiety issues are really an issue:( I have a 32 year old that anxiety is just one of the issues he masters as well as he can every day. He will over come it with the wonderful doctors her has. This did not happen till 2 years ago when he had a break down, 6 years ago he attempted suicide. My loved SIL did not know. She asked the other day why he was not doing something. I broke down and told her, she cried also.

Chicken lady

9-20-17, 6:38pm

That was sort of my point, sometimes the chicken comes before the egg, sometimes not. Two girls, same parents, same opportunities, completely different outcomes.

Tammy

9-20-17, 9:50pm

I wandered all over the farm by myself, but it was a farm - nobody was around. My 10-year-old grandson lives a mile from me - but we’re in downtown Phoenix. Just this fall he started riding his bike here by himself. It still makes me a little nervous, with all the homeless people wandering throughout our city lately. I certainly wouldn’t want him taking buses and light rail all over the city without us. He has to call his parents as soon as he arrives here to let them know he’s OK.

jp1

9-20-17, 10:01pm

It sounds like the BC parent did the right thing to prepare his kids. Seems very similar to what my parents did when I was young (I'll be 50 next month). I can remember being 4 years old or so and my dad taking me across the street from our house after dinner several times to "surprise Mom with a phone call!" from the pay phone. To me at the time it was just great fun. In hindsight it was obviously him teaching me how to use a pay phone in case I ever needed to call home for some reason. When I got into kindergarten I would walk to school with my older sister, but since kindergarten was only a half day I had to walk the four blocks home on my own. The first couple of blocks was a whole bunch of other kids, but the last two blocks I was on my own because I turned off from everyone else. I was also allowed to walk to friends' houses on my own at that age, but only under the strict parameters of my parents knowing exactly when I was leaving and where I was going, and that I had to call before leaving my friend's house to walk home so they'd know exactly when to expect me or be worried if I didn't arrive home safely. Yes, something could have happened, but it had been drilled into my head how to deal with strangers. By the time I was 10 or 11 I had friends all over my neighborhood and had permission to go wherever, as long as I was home by dinnertime and by dark. But I was usually with a hoard of kids so nothing bad was likely to happen. And if it did then someone's parents were surely nearby and would have been summoned by the other kids.

My concern today if I had children would be that it isn't the norm now for parents to let their kids out into the wild so my kids wouldn't likely have that "hoard of kids" out there with them that I had. My inclination would be to teach them early on how to take care of themselves in the world, but I probably wouldn't let them have free reign until junior high school age. By that point they should know how to handle things even by themselves.

pinkytoe

9-20-17, 10:47pm

I am sorry, Biking Lady. I had horrific anxiety attacks as a young person but finally got beyond them. I know how crippling they can be. Maybe people have always had them but it was unspoken. I know my nephew has to take medication and avoid certain situations that stress him out. I don't think his overprotective Mom has helped the situation though.

BikingLady

9-21-17, 4:57am

pinktoe, no harm done or meant. His life issues now I am hands off and do nothing not medical, money, appointments, bills, food. What I do give is a happy safe solid roof over his head. I live life now as if I die today, he needs to continue and he will do fine. Sometime it takes as huge event to change someone. Actually this week University of Michigan Depression Center gave him the best news of a life time that he is headed in the right direction so to say.

So all is great and wonderful

SteveinMN

9-21-17, 11:29am

I think it's more than kids -- as a culture we have become risk-averse.

I was watching a video yesterday about the design and manufacture of a car I used to own back in the early 80s. More than once it showed doting parents taking their two toddlers to a picnic by loading them into the back of this hatchback -- unrestrained and surrounded by little more than the glass and metal of the car's body and the (metal) back of the back seat. Now, in the late 2010s, you see car-seat manufacturers and some parents' Web forums not-so-subtly push the idea that you're not a good (grand)parent unless you fork over $300-400 (or more) for a car seat. The $60 one isn't good enough (it is).

When I was growing up, certainly there were kids approached by people with less-than-pure intentions (some of them even wearing religious garb, but no need to go further there). But it seemed about as random as winning a lottery. Kids were taught not to accept rides/candy/dog-petting from people they didn't know (this didn't always work; see parenthetical comment above) and we roamed around fairly freely. My biggest boundary was a busy street. But suddenly nonstop coverage of a couple of kids (out of millions in America) disappearing seemed to make everyone afraid that it could happen to every kid at any time. Don't get me wrong -- those events were tragedies. But the long-term effect of that were to make sure kids were monitored at all times and always in controlled situations. No more "be home by dark" or "call if you're later than curfew". Still the vast majority of us pre-cocoon grew up okay.

Even adults get into the act, launching class-action suits for investments gone bad not out of malfeasance but out of incompetence or greed, or joining social groups out of a fear of not being labeled "appropriately", or taking over their kids' fights with school administrators or after-school sports coaches, or retreating from even the hearing of potentially-unpopular points of view at high schools or colleges.

I find it interesting in when we enclose the bubble around kids (when we think people are watching) and when we don't. While our infants and toddlers are protected by the equivalent of a space capsule in our cars we have yet to put seat belts on school buses. And while we're making sure every treat they eat is wrapped commercially (no homegrown "don't-know-what's-in-there" snacks for our kids!) or feeding kids Pedialyte when they "don't wanna" eat what's served for dinner, we fail to lock up medicine chests and gun cabinets and smartphones, thinking, somehow, our kids will never find what's inside.

I don't tie it to just the way we raise kids. But it certainly has had interesting results.

pinkytoe

9-21-17, 6:42pm

I think there have been some pretty strong fear reactions to school shootings too - understandably. That scenario would have never even entered our minds when I was growing up.

SteveinMN

9-21-17, 10:02pm

I think there have been some pretty strong fear reactions to school shootings too - understandably. That scenario would have never even entered our minds when I was growing up.
Those, too. But I don't believe we'll see a change in that in our lifetimes. :(

Williamsmith

9-21-17, 10:02pm

October Sky, by Homer Hickman Jr., is a memoir about a boys pursuit of ametuer rocketry in a coal mining town in West Virginia. The movie, Rocket Boys was based on it. It's one of the closest reflections of what a joy being a child used to be. I actually grieve over what we've done to our kids. Maybe that's why I'm always reminiscing about my childhood.

sweetana3

9-22-17, 6:55am

You might have enjoyed my Dad's stories. As a boy, he and a friend set off a rocket that took out an electrical line to town. As a Dad, he was still interested in chemistry and rockets and showed us all kinds of things. Mom did not like it much since most was in our kitchen and dining room.

Tybee

9-22-17, 8:09am

I think childhood is innately a time of great vulnerability. Some children are lucky and have supportive, healthy families and a confluence of good luck and fair skies. Others are not so lucky, and some children have terrible or no childhoods-- if you were a Jewish child born in Germany in 1933, your childhood was truly terrifying. (If you were a Lutheran child in Dresden watching your siblings melt from the Allied firebombings, your childhood was truly terrifying as well.)

I think parents do the best they can, for the most part, and that varies too. I "do not grieve over what I've done to my kids"--I raised three boys the best I could, and they are functional adults (knock on wood) as much as I am a functional adult. I know of no parent who does not agonize over what they do--maybe that's the difference, but honestly, that beats the neglect that was endemic to the 50's and 60's. I loved wandering over the neighborhood as a child--but in that way was lucky most of the time, not so lucky some of the time. I did not want my children to have to be as unprotected as I was.

They thought I was more protective than many parents when they were in high school in the 90's. They also told me they knew they were loved because I protected them, and felt that many parents were leaving their kids alone too much and the kids were drinking, drugging, etc.

On the other hand, they all worked from the age of 16 and never got another penny of spending money from that point, moved out after high school and college, paid their bills, made their own way. So they seem to have turned out okay.

razz

9-22-17, 8:36am

Tybee

9-22-17, 9:13am

I do think that being consciously aware of being loved and valued by someone important in a child's life is the most valuable gift one can give a child.

Clear rules and a clear understanding by both parent and child on street smarts and appropriate behaviour are absolutely essential. Many homes had/have troubled parents who conduct themselves in a troubling way so it is not the outside world alone that is the problem. This is and was an ongoing reality.
What is bothering me is the loss of confidence in the goodness of our world creating such a fearful state in parents that hover over their kids teaching them the state of fearfulness that destroys them.
When others' personal fearfulness can undermine the values that conscientious parents are taking great care to teach their children and triggering legal public interventions through police and child welfare authorities, that is morally, ethically and invasive beyond health for a society and our children. By all means, ensure that children are cared for and monitor situations that are of concern but what is happening is a call to welfare authorities based on observations that are interpreted by the lens of one's own fears and not the reality of the actual situation.

You are so right that sometimes the problem comes from within the home itself, sometimes from the world at large. In either case, we must guard against over generalizing and acting on those generalizations.

In the case that you mention of the bus, since I was not there, I don't know why the original intervenor called DCFS. It could have been the bus driver, it could have been a bystander. If the children were legally underage to ride the bus alone, then the parent broke the law. I think under those circumstances, it is inevitable than someone is going to call DCFS. Society gets together and puts the age restriction in place, and then if someone breaks that, then an investigation may come about, and they may or may not judge the parent neglectful.

But I think it goes by the law, the age. And of course since we weren't there, we don't know the particulars, whether the children were not dressed for the weather, whether they had a phone to call in emergency, whether there was a kindly neighbor who also rode the bus at that time. etc.

It so depends on the child, of course, how mature they are at any given age. To me, I would go by the law and the standards the community agreed upon.

If someone reports something that is against the law, then I don't think they are imposing their own fears and values, I think they are attempting to protect the children. Let DCFS straighten it out.

But that's just my opinion, of course, and I completely agree that "being consciously aware of being loved and valued. . . is the most valuable gift one can give a child."

Tammy

9-22-17, 9:15am

I think the "lost confidence in the goodness of our world" is simply Americans excepting reality. After World War II Europe went through that stage and they still think of us as Pollyanna "everything is just fine" types. It's not reality.

I was raised in that world where everything was just fine. It was quite an adjustment for me the last 10 years to accept the fact that the world really isn't a very nice place.

Zoe Girl

9-22-17, 9:16am

A lot of how we parent is based on a response or reaction to how we were raised, my mom worked all the time from when she could babysit and on. So she literally told me to quit jobs or not work. My first year of college was miserable, as an introvert it was easier to meet people at a job no matter how small. However she was truly incapable of having a feeling based conversation with me. That was vital to me as i am wired like that, but certainly not unusual for the era.

Williamsmith

9-22-17, 9:33am

I look at my granddaughter (7) and am wondering how she will navigate the complexities her environment puts before her. What from my generation is she going to be without? I can't help but always be in favor of simplicity, and I don't feel society is at all generous toward simple people. I am appreciative of the advances technologically but to me it came at the cost of some innocence and trust. The things that have made process so easy have also made corruption easier. A child of my era would reasonably be exposed to very little evil without supervision, Today, the world is your neighborhood and the increase in exposure is exponential.

My granddaughter relocates about six hours away from me on Sunday. Most importantly, from her daddy. She will leave behind, two sets of grand parents, uncles and aunts, cousins and a father who loves her. It will be a strange place, new school and long road trips to get back to visit. I would think at that age...it would be nearly terrifying to lose your stability.

LDAHL

9-22-17, 9:38am

I think it's more than kids -- as a culture we have become risk-averse.

I don't tie it to just the way we raise kids. But it certainly has had interesting results.

I think that's true, especially with kids. By the time I started college, I had had direct experience of getting punched in the face every so often, keeping my grades up in a parochial school system that wasn't especially interested in my feelings or excuses, been beaten (and very rarely triumphant) in various forms of competition, and had it made pretty clear to me that I could have what I could earn, and that included the sort of wealth you carry around in your skull. My only experiences of helicopter parenting was the occasional strafing run when I screwed up.

But as a result, the only sense of entitlement I had was for the opportunity to take my shot along with everyone else. Difficulties weren't a traumatic shock, damaging my mental health. There may be a mental health benefit to experiential scar tissue. I certainly didn't panic if somebody thought my opinion on any given topic was stupid.

Williamsmith

9-22-17, 9:49am

This is helicopter parenting.....my wife works two jobs....one is at a preschool daycare environment for toddlers and wobblers. The other a teachers aid for emotional support students. The kids are a challenge but the parents are nuts. One parent brought her wobbler into daycare during snack. Each child was handed half a soda cracker among other things. The mother demanded her child get a full cracker. And the most demanding are the ones that are always late in payments.

pinkytoe

9-22-17, 10:30am

the world really isn't a very nice place.
Maybe that all goes back to how we parent. Churning out humans who do not know how to love or respect themselves or others.

razz

9-22-17, 11:32am

Oh dear. I don't think that everything is 'pollyanna' fine but I do have the skills to cope, create change for the better, resilience to overcome the trials in life, intelligence to aid others, confidence to give and share. I see beauty, kindness, tenderness, wisdom, order, thoughtfulness, courage, everywhere I go each day.

Some complain about today's teenagers but I see amazing courtesy, smiles and helpfulness.

Others grumble about poor service. I am almost always delighted when I walk into a store that so many staff who are earning limited wages are as knowledgeable about the store contents as they are.

With all the vehicles that are on the road, we have order that I rely upon. There are driver-'twits' but they are noteworthy...

We have healthy food, water, banking, shelter... That is enough goodness just to start the list of what makes me grateful.

It is around the world as well. I have experienced the truly 'yucky' but it is my mental choice if the 'yucky' defines my view of life and what I tell my children or discussing those same challenges and the blessings that help/ed me cope and how to acknowledge their presence in their lives.

I think the "lost confidence in the goodness of our world" is simply Americans excepting reality. After World War II Europe went through that stage and they still think of us as Pollyanna "everything is just fine" types. It's not reality.

I was raised in that world where everything was just fine. It was quite an adjustment for me the last 10 years to accept the fact that the world really isn't a very nice place.

iris lilies

9-22-17, 11:38am

Every time I go overseas it is brought home how incredibly we have it here in the U.S. (And Canada, too.)

I tend to do two things with that: be grateful, get annoyed at those who are not grateful. This latter reaction doesnt improve my life, so maybe I had better work on it.

LDAHL

9-22-17, 2:10pm

Maybe that all goes back to how we parent. Churning out humans who do not know how to love or respect themselves or others.

I think there's a bumper sticker that says "People are despicable. I blame the parents".

I think the real trick may be turning out people who love themselves for the right reasons. if anyone has a reliable method to do that, I'd be interested.

pinkytoe

9-22-17, 4:22pm

people who love themselves for the right reasons.
I think part of that is teaching your children empathy from the very beginning.

Teacher Terry

9-22-17, 4:25pm

Like IL I am always grateful for what I have when I travel to other countries. So much poverty and suffering. Especially when I have been to the Caribbean. I had more freedom growing up then my kids had but times were safer. Also my parents always knew where I was and paid attention. I was not spoiled but I was loved and valued. I hope my kids feel the same way.

Teacher Terry

9-22-17, 4:26pm

PT: one of my biggest pet peeves is when people lack empathy for others. They simply can't put themselves in someone else s shoes. It actually makes me angry but I think it is denial and a feeling of being superior and smarter then others.

catherine

9-22-17, 4:32pm

I think there's a bumper sticker that says "People are despicable. I blame the parents".

I think the real trick may be turning out people who love themselves for the right reasons. if anyone has a reliable method to do that, I'd be interested.

Well, I know this won't be a globally popular position, but I think that you impress upon them that they are loved because they are children of God. Your birthright is the value you give the world simply with your presence and unique gifts, whether you call God The Big Kahuna, Buddha, Shiva, Allah, Nature, The Universe, or The Divine Nothingness. And I've always told them to NEVER not to something because they are afraid to do it. As the God Nike said, Just Do It.

SteveinMN

9-22-17, 10:09pm

PT: one of my biggest pet peeves is when people lack empathy for others. They simply can't put themselves in someone else s shoes.
I honestly believe this is the cause of most of the discord America is experiencing right now. But I suppose that's what happens when you tell people for decades that "I got mine" is a perfectly acceptable worldview.

ToomuchStuff

9-23-17, 9:12am

I had more freedom growing up then my kids had but times were safer. Also my parents always knew where I was and paid attention.

I often wonder if that is an accurate statement? How much wasn't in the news? How much the news drives fear of things being worse now, etc. My personal feelings/experience, tells me time wasn't really safer, we just learned how to deal with stuff, differently.

Chicken lady

9-23-17, 9:42am

Dh and I went to an antique tractor show last weekend. We watched portable saw mill demos and wood fired tractors. Watching the sawmill dh said "that was designed back in the day when fingers were expendable"

i think childhood used to be a lot more dangerous. Polio, farm machinery, and bike helmets come to mind instantly.

what it means to be a good parent has changed. Before we got obsessed with litigation (imho bad) and developed a bunch of safety equipment (imho good) it was an essential part of good parenting to teach your children about risks and how to do things safely. Now, to be a "good" parent it is required to keep your child away from risks.

Tybee

9-23-17, 10:05am

razz

9-23-17, 10:50am

I think that's absolutely right, a great assessment, CL.
I agree. Very insightful. The tragedy then becomes that as adults, they don't know how to cope with challenges and the risks involved.
I admit that as a country mouse going to the big city, I learned the hard way about p!mps and other bad actors.. Fortunately my ability to run and defend myself helped but mostly, it was the confidence that I could do it that I learned from dealing with other risks.

Gardenarian

9-23-17, 11:42am

My parents were neglectful and that didn't make me or my siblings tougher or more ready for the world - quite the opposite.

I feel I have pampered my daughter, which included introducing her to age-appropriate challenges (i.e., walking to the library at 7, going on group campouts at 12.)

Leaving a kid to fend for themselves is in no one's best interest. Children who don't get enough attention turn into the kind of adults who need it the most.

Chicken lady

9-23-17, 12:07pm

I love my children and would never have deliberately put them in harms way. But they had burns (that left scars) and cuts that needed stitches, and smashed teeth, and broken bones and they got stung and bitten by wild animals (and more than once by livestock). And they had amazing childhoods that made them into strong, competent people.

i would change two things. I would not trust the 8y.o. and the 6 y.o. alone in a room with a wallpaper steamer they had been warned about and told not to touch (I mean, I'd do it again, but not if I knew how it turned out! - burn) and I would make sure that my son knew that spending money on good equipment was important to me, not a sacrifice (impact fracture - worn out shoes that weren't reported by a 15 y.o. who thought his sport was costing too much) every other injury would have cost them too much in freedom and experiences and education to be worth avoiding.

And every emergency trip I prayed no one would report me to cps.

ToomuchStuff

9-24-17, 1:02am

which included introducing her to age-appropriate challenges (i.e., walking to the library at 7, going on group campouts at 12.)

And right there is the issue with one size fits all laws.
There are children who mature quicker mentally, as well as children who mature quicker physically.

Sawmills were mentioned. They still use the same technology. There is also a lot of the tech that predated them (hand tools). Child labor laws have changed, but not if your a parent on a tree farm, and expect your kid to help out. Tech changes (and so does medicine, as Polio was why my great aunt was the way she was), but the people are the issue. You may find a way to make tech safer, but then something else comes along and there are people who always look for how to take advantage of that.
Years ago, the bosses wife, left her daughter with her aunt. Legally, the aunt was in charge, but if you talked to them, maturity level, the niece was in charge.

Williamsmith

9-24-17, 3:05am

If you want to see where you really are on the subject of government interventions in protections of children ( that was the OPs point right?)....one should consider a very polarizing set of regulations that deal directly with state intervention of family behavior for the safety of the child. Child Access Prevention Laws.

Some mention has been made of parents educating their children about risks and actual safety requirements or state interventions. CAP laws are very unpopular with owners of firearms yet unintentional or accidental shootings and suicides have been reduced by the implementation of such laws. To varying degrees these laws provide for criminal liability for the gun owner under certain circumstances arising out of unsecured firearms.

So is this not terrifying or is it a culture of fear?

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/child-consumer-safety/child-access-prevention/

Chicken lady

9-24-17, 5:37am

Well, let's see, I'm a big fan of safe storage. I think trigger locks are a good thing.

i forbid my children toy guns when they were little. I gave them wooden swords, with which they actually hit each other. When they were in middle school/upper elementary, they had learned enough woodworking skills to build their own rubber band guns, so those were allowed. By then they had also thrown hatchets and shot arrows.

I told dh I didn't want him teaching them to shoot real guns until they were 14, but he wore me down to 12. I am concerned about what is meant by "allowing access" or "intentionally providing" but the list of common exceptions works pretty well for me.

i also like car seat and seatbelt laws.

when my Dad was 16 he wanted a motorcycle because it was cheaper than a car. My grandfather was a surgeon. He took my dad over to the hospital and down to the morgue. He said "this guy had a motorcycle. He was doing everything right. The guy in the car wasn't." Then he opened the drawer. Dad waited and saved up for a car.

the reason we need laws is that unlike my grandfather, most people don't think it could be their kid in that drawer. I always think it could be my kids. I had to stop listening to the traffic report when Dd started driving into the city for work because I kept calling her when there was an "accident with injuries". But as my mother used to tell me every time something happened to one of them "you can't wrap them in cotton batting and keep them in a drawer."

razz

9-24-17, 7:05am

Been thinking about this. CL has covered much of my perspective but want to offer some input.

There is basic common sense. Handle hazardous items from knives, guns, sprays, medications etc with intelligence and parents should both inform their children and demonstrate proper use, including secure storage. That is presenting the risks and how to manage them. EG:I stressed to our daughters that no one, no one, has any right to touch their body inappropriately at any time and I discussed what was inappropriate, how to manage the risk and how to react.

What appears to be happening is parents doing the 'thinking for the children'. A neighbour who teaches high school for Gr 12 told me that irate parents have asked her to phone them when a test is planned. The teacher has told the children, given fair warning of the need for preparation and offered opportunities to resolve any misunderstanding with the children themselves; but the parents want to go over the test with their kids first to ensure that they pass. The kids have been taught that they have no responsibility for themselves as the parents do their thinking for them. When they go to post-secondary education without mom and dad, they have no idea how to manage their courses plus they have new freedoms and unexplored emotions with no parameters of how to respond. They may check with peers who advise from their limited perspectives. That is the form of 'neglect' in which hovering parents are now indulging.

Chicken lady

9-24-17, 7:20am

my mom was an amazing parent, but I think I got my best parenting advice from my dad. Who responded to "I hate you!" With "that's ok. My job is not to make you like me. My job is to turn you into a competent, functioning, decent human being."

my dd2 used to be really jealous of a couple of her friends who were "best friends" with their moms. I always said "I'm not your friend. I'm your mom. I love you, but go get some friends." At 21 she looks at their lives and isn't jealous anymore.

ToomuchStuff

9-24-17, 8:52am

catherine

9-24-17, 8:58am

What appears to be happening is parents doing the 'thinking for the children'. A neighbour who teaches high school for Gr 12 told me that irate parents have asked her to phone them when a test is planned. The teacher has told the children, given fair warning of the need for preparation and offered opportunities to resolve any misunderstanding with the children themselves; but the parents want to go over the test with their kids first to ensure that they pass. The kids have been taught that they have no responsibility for themselves as the parents do their thinking for them. When they go to post-secondary education without mom and dad, they have no idea how to manage their courses plus they have new freedoms and unexplored emotions with no parameters of how to respond. They may check with peers who advise from their limited perspectives. That is the form of 'neglect' in which hovering parents are now indulging.

I think that rather than valuing independent-minded children, many parents place more value on pushing their kids into a highly competitive college situations with the best possible results and doing whatever it takes to make sure they "make the grade." When I was working for our township school district, the HS principal used to tell me how parents would storm his office and demand that an A- or B be turned into As because they needed the absolute highest GPA to get into Ivy League schools. They don't care if the kids can actually think for themselves when they get there.

College entrance is much more competitive today than it used to be.

ToomuchStuff

9-24-17, 9:46am

Catherine, wouldn't it be "Ivy college entrance is much more competitive today then it used to be"?

Regular colleges it would seem are more sign up for this loan.

catherine

9-24-17, 10:45am

Catherine, wouldn't it be "Ivy college entrance is much more competitive today then it used to be"?

Regular colleges it would seem are more sign up for this loan.

Maybe true, but my point is, parents are demanding kids get into the more selective schools, which go far beyond just Ivy League. My DDs best friend's lifelong dream was to go to UNC, where both of her parents had gone. This girl was a great student, a leader, in lots of sports, etc. etc. She applied and DIDN'T GET IN!!! Even with her parents' legacy. UNCs a good school, but it's not Princeton.

My own experience with my DD was that college entrance was soul-crushing to her. She also was in National Honor Society, won a state golf championship, was in tons of community service activities, and even had the unique qualification of having been in Broadway plays and major movies. Of the 5 colleges she applied to, she got into two and waitlisted for one. None of her applications went to Ivy League schools, but most were very selective. I was shocked.

Here is the fall 2016 acceptance rates (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate) of the top 100 hardest colleges to get into. Even when you get to #100, less than a third of the applicants are admitted.

ApatheticNoMore

9-24-17, 10:58am

I think that rather than valuing independent-minded children, many parents place more value on pushing their kids into a highly competitive college situations with the best possible results and doing whatever it takes to make sure they "make the grade." When I was working for our township school district, the HS principal used to tell me how parents would storm his office and demand that an A- or B be turned into As because they needed the absolute highest GPA to get into Ivy League schools. They don't care if the kids can actually think for themselves when they get there.

+1 there have always been bad parents (at least a 3rd and maybe half of parents probably never should have been parents in my guesstimate). But the pressures faced now are much harder on everyone, it's not a parent nowdays or kids nowdays problem though, it's life nowdays. And of course all competition in college admission isn't restricted to Ivy League, the best state schools are competitive etc.. True the community college is most likely not that difficult to get into it. The CC in some cases cane be a good choice but ONLY for those who actually have EVEN MORE parental and social emotional support for schooling than those who go to a 4 year college, because those who don't drop out.

dmc

9-24-17, 12:12pm

Chicken lady

9-24-17, 12:32pm

dmc

9-24-17, 12:45pm

Alan will support them.

but seriously, I'm not sure what being a vegan has to do with most jobs involving Italian? Our facilities manager and receptionist are both vegan. Neither of them has to use leather or beeswax in the course of her job, nor do we force feed them lunch.

(sometimes they proselytize by bring us vegan cookies, but no one has filed suit.)

Im not sure what being a vegan has to do with getting a job either, and I didn't even know you could get a degree in Italian. And she doesn't want to teach.

Alan better be putting in some overtime.

ApatheticNoMore

9-24-17, 1:33pm

You can get a job with a linguistics degree, people make assumptions about what you can and can't get jobs in, but being based on generalizations and often very little actual job market information they are often wrong. However Italian alone is perhaps not all that easy, I don't know, maybe she should just get that master or PhD in linguistics and pick up another language or so. You can make a career out of linguistics and foreign languages if you do it right, and not just in academia, not at all. One would hope actual career advisors at colleges and so on would be able to help with this, but maybe they aren't always able to.

pinkytoe

9-24-17, 10:53pm

many parents place more value on pushing their kids into a highly competitive college situations with the best possible results
I read that many upper middle income parents in particular are now spending more than ever on their kids education - private school, tutors and test prep for college entry. It has become a priority to make sure their children don't fall into a lower status/income situation. They will even move to a particular neighborhood solely to get into a "better" public school if private is not an option. The pressure is great I am sure on those kids that aren't wired to take that kind of stress.

razz

9-25-17, 6:33am

OK, this may be one new explanation for the mental health issues of today. Parental expectations that rather than aiding children are harming them, making children more insecure growing up creating a sense of inability and no one to talk about it. Parents are crippling their children. That is a new insight for me.

I read that many upper middle income parents in particular are now spending more than ever on their kids education - private school, tutors and test prep for college entry. It has become a priority to make sure their children don't fall into a lower status/income situation. They will even move to a particular neighborhood solely to get into a "better" public school if private is not an option. The pressure is great I am sure on those kids that aren't wired to take that kind of stress.

Tybee

9-25-17, 7:03am

OK, this may be one new explanation for the mental health issues of today. Parental expectations that rather than aiding children are harming them, making children more insecure growing up creating a sense of inability and no one to talk about it. Parents are crippling their children. That is a new insight for me.

[/B]

While I agree with Catherine that in some communities, pressure on high school kids and parents to get into "the right school" is incredible, I don't know that I would leap to "Parents are crippling their children" because of their expectations. In some cases, maybe. But I think there is much more awareness of mental health issues than when I was young, and an honest desire to attend to problems earlier in life, ie. college counseling centers. Less stigma about getting help. More kinds of drug availability and substance abuse issues.

I think blaming parents as either overprotective or over pushy is kind of counterproductive, and not really accurate, but that is of course, just my opinion.

razz

9-25-17, 12:38pm

I did say that the new insight was one contributing factor.
CNN has this http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/22/health/teens-grow-up-slower-partner/index.html analysis which sheds further light on the topic.

Quotes:
Working, driving, drinking alcohol, having sex and dating have one thing in common: They are all activities adults do. This generation of teens, then, is delaying the responsibilities and pleasures of adulthood.
Adolescence -- once the beginning of adulthood -- now seems to be an extension of childhood. It's not that teens are more virtuous or lazier. They could simply be taking longer to grow up...

Looking at these trends through the lens of "life history theory" might be useful. According to this model, whether development is "slow" (with teens taking longer to get to adulthood) or "fast" (getting to adulthood sooner) depends on cultural context.
A "slow life strategy" is more common in times and places where families have fewer children and spend more time cultivating each child's growth and development...

A "fast-life strategy," on the other hand, was the more common parenting approach in the mid-20th century, when fewer labor-saving devices were available and the average woman had four children. As a result, kids needed to fend for themselves sooner. ..

But like any adaptation, the slow life strategy has trade-offs. It's definitely a good thing that fewer teens are having sex and drinking alcohol. But what about when they go to college and suddenly enter an environment where sex and alcohol are rampant? ...

College administrators describe students who can't do anything without calling their parents. Employers worry that more young employees lack the ability to work independently.
Although I found in my analyses that iGen evinces a stronger work ethic than millennials, they'll probably also require more guidance as they transition into adulthood.

SteveinMN

9-25-17, 1:14pm

My sons in-laws were sheltered. His sister in-law did go to a good school on the east coast and got a BA in Italian. For some reason she can't find a job, she has never had one. Also anyone who would hire her has to respect the fact that she is a vegan. She claims it's because she is a woman of color, her family is Hispanic. She is a highly educated victim.
Maybe it was just me but I thought carefully about employment prospects before I chose a major in college (n.b., not income projections but employment outlook). Getting a degree in barrel cooping might have been fun, but how many coopers does the world want?

On the other hand, SiL got a degree, which is a starting point at many companies. I also don't get the vegan excuse. So she doesn't work at a company that sells pet food or leather shoes. There still is a universe of employment opportunities out there. And being a PoC should be opening doors, not closing them, at least at larger organizations.

His brother in law is just out of high school. Does not look for work or seem interested in working. Has no friends, except online, and plays video games all day.

What happens to them when their parents are gone?
They try to lean on their sibs. Or Alan.

Of course, this is not a new problem. A friend of mine (same age) has three brothers. They all grew up on a farm in outstate Minnesota. He became an M.D. They worked the farm until alcohol and age reduced their ability to manage it to zero, then they rented out the land. No college education (certainly no degrees anyway). After both parents passed away, the decision was made to sell the farm -- except for the farmhouse. The three brothers are all still in the farmhouse, living off their portions of the proceeds until that's gone. Then? It's anyone's guess. One can only hope the money lasts till whatever Social Security they can collect kicks in. My friend has another 12 years or so until he retires.

ApatheticNoMore

9-25-17, 1:24pm

Maybe it was just me but I thought carefully about employment prospects before I chose a major in college (n.b., not income projections but employment outlook). Getting a degree in barrel cooping might have been fun, but how many coopers does the world want?

yea but without guidance counselors the problem is you don't know much and deal with crude stereotypes which have some truth but .... Like I never knew linguists can get jobs specifically for knowing languages etc. until I worked at a company that employed them (yes decades after choosing a career). I was actually surprised to see people with job titles of: linguist. I thought that was one of those useless liberal arts degrees that fine you can get a PhD studying languages, but expect to be employed doing something entirely unrelated ...

Now I'm not saying I personally would have gone down that path or anything. But I can imagine young people who might want that, not knowing that either, they are just as likely to major in accounting because "everyone knows that everyone needs accountants?" or something right. And sometimes this doesn't even end well. Like "lawyers can always hang out a shingle and get work right?, a law degree is always a good investment right?" Well not always, sometimes there have been surpluses and that's often a pretty expensive degree too.

Chicken lady

9-25-17, 1:44pm

When I was 16, my dad said "what do you want to be?" And I said "a stay at home mom." And he asked "are you going to marry any guy you can find who wants to support one?" And I said "no." And he said "come up with a plan b."

so, I got a degree in early childhood ed with a minor in developmentally psychology. Figuring I like kids, I liked school, and the world always needs teachers. Then I discovered I hated public school from the supply side, got married, worked as a nanny, in a private preschool, and as a church secretary. Became a stay at home mom with 3 kids. I also ran a farm stand, taught gymnastics and now pottery, ceramics, and this year an introduction to farming.

if I could course check that 16 y.o., I would have majored in art with a concentration in ceramics and minored in business. The child development stuff was fascinating enough that I would have picked up plenty on my own.

i would totally have supported any of my kids getting degrees in barrel cooping. Because they already knew how to earn a basic living. (Ds actually dug ditches for a while. He loved it the first three months.)

SteveinMN

9-25-17, 1:45pm

My experience with guidance counselors was mixed. Some were great. Some were marking days on their retirement calendars. None of them knew me well enough to suggest careers which might take advantage of skills and interests I had. One time we were given the Kuder test, which takes answers to questions and applies degrees of confidence as to how applicable your personality was to various jobs. I think my list included mathematician, engineer, bricklayer, florist, and librarian. Hmm.

On the other hand, the library at school had a book from the federal government on careers (548.2: Steamshovel Operator) which described jobs, necessary qualifications, expected employment outlooks, and the like. It was useful to pore past 122.24: Civil Engineer and 761: Blacksmith to jobs I'd never heard of before. If nothing else, it sparked my imagination. And there were scads of books in that library titled something like "So You Want To Be A <fill in job>?" Maybe they were dated but they were a starting point.

I believe Alvin Toffler was right:

The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.
I owe my career in IT to that quote, because what I ended up doing for a living was nothing that people expected computers to do when I was choosing a major.