View Full Version : Now taking a knee a big polo all deal
flowerseverywhere
9-24-17, 1:36pm
Anybody boycotting football? And now some baseball players are reportedly taking a knee.
Our country is fighting on numerous fronts. North Korea. Health Care. Tax Reform. Russian meddling. Racial unrest.
Suddenly it it has become a big deal with the Presidents tweets and campaign rally speech. Some of the rhetoric has sounded like telling those black "boys" to remember their place.
Personally i I think if you don't like it tune in after the national anthem. Good time to use the bathroom or make a sandwich. Go ahead and cheer for your favorite team and ignore what you disagree with. Making a big deal out of it is not going to move this country forward. Unless you try to listen to the players and why they feel this is appropriate.
flowerseverywhere
9-24-17, 1:37pm
I have no idea what polo deal means in the title. I guess I meant political. Autocorrect will be the death of me.
Funny how the amazing player who started this still doesn't have a job, but the NFL owners are now all jumping on board with supporting players who are taking a knee
Trump has made the mistake of taking on players who are indispensable to their teams, when he is not indispensable himself. He has magnified and strengthened the kneelers' position.
I don't watch football but am curious if any fans are kneeling.
.
Suddenly it it has become a big deal with the Presidents tweets and campaign rally speech. Some of the rhetoric has sounded like telling those black "boys" to remember their place.
This started before our current President was in office but the virtue signaling that goes along with it seems to suddenly be tied to him nonetheless.
I'm a live and let live kinda guy but that doesn't mean I should respect every action someone else takes. I'm also a football fan and will continue to support my favorite team until such time as they pull the same thing the Steelers did today, remaining in the locker room until the National Anthem was completed. One Steeler, a former Army Ranger, did come out and place his hand over his heart. That took more courage than the rest of the team combined showed in staying inside.
As for me, this sums up my feelings:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1945&stc=1
iris lilies
9-24-17, 2:31pm
Of course I am boycotting football, as I do every year and every decade of my life.
I find it absurd that given the number of substantial issues facing the nation, the President is wasting his, and our, time Tweeting about the NFL/NBA.
I guess my question is when IS it the right time/place for black people to protest. Apparently it's not appropriate for them to protest on the streets. And now it's not appropriate for them to quietly and peacefully protest during the national anthem. Perhaps someone can explain what the "right" way for them to protest is.
I guess my question is when IS it the right time/place for black people to protest. Apparently it's not appropriate for them to protest on the streets. And now it's not appropriate for them to quietly and peacefully protest during the national anthem. Perhaps someone can explain what the "right" way for them to protest is.
http://www.vahistorical.org/sites/default/files/uploads/68%20peoples%20drug%2018%27wide.jpg
Williamsmith
9-24-17, 3:45pm
My Steelers shirts and jerseys are waiting in a stack on my bed for the burning ceremony. I will not watch them. When I was employed I would have been fired for making any expression political or social while working. They are working football players, making millions of dollars a year based on the freedoms other people have earned for them through great sacrifice and even the giving of lives which is represented by the singing of the national anthem. It's not too much to ask them to pick another time and venue to air their grievance. They are spoiled millionaires. I won't be attending any games, I will be asking my kids not to purchase any team merchandise and I will be wearing plain t-shirts and jerseys and not providing free advertising for ingrateful brats. I imagine Art Rooney is rolling over in his grave right now.
This started before our current President was in office but the virtue signaling that goes along with it seems to suddenly be tied to him nonetheless.
You say that as if he didn't have anything to do with causing what happened today. He must be thrilled at how successful his speech was at further tearing this country to shreds.
The NFL is a collection of private businesses. If the business owners are happy with their employees making political statements at work, that's fine. Presumably they are intelligent businessfolk, and have reasons for their decision one way or another. From the stream of statements from the various teams' CEOs, they seem OK with the current practice.
The President shouldn't be yelling at private businesses telling them how to run their show and making demands of them.
Especially when he hasn't delivered my tax reform yet.
Williamsmith
9-24-17, 4:47pm
Perhaps the players should protest the lack of diversity in NFL ownership and see what the reaction is?
Perhaps the players should protest the lack of diversity in NFL ownership and see what the reaction is?
You mean the fact that there are only a handful of female team owners?
You say that as if he didn't have anything to do with causing what happened today. He must be thrilled at how successful his speech was at further tearing this country to shreds.
This has been happening since last season and continues to gain momentum. He didn't help things but he certainly didn't cause it.
This has been happening since last season and continues to gain momentum. He didn't help things but he certainly didn't cause it.
He's been pushing white identity politics since his campaign started. And if you don't think his speech friday was what pushed things over the edge this weekend I've got a tackily decorated highrise in midtown I'll sell you.
He's been pushing white identity politics since his campaign started. And if you don't think his speech friday was what pushed things over the edge this weekend I've got a tackily decorated highrise in midtown I'll sell you.
White identity politics, LOL
The only identity politics progressives won't embrace and the only identity politics they see behind every thought and action. It would be funny if it weren't so divisive.
frugal-one
9-24-17, 5:11pm
I guess my question is when IS it the right time/place for black people to protest. Apparently it's not appropriate for them to protest on the streets. And now it's not appropriate for them to quietly and peacefully protest during the national anthem. Perhaps someone can explain what the "right" way for them to protest is.
The way I see this is when ANYONE kneels during the national anthem or disses the flag is WRONG and unpatriotic.
The way I see this is when ANYONE kneels during the national anthem or disses the flag is WRONG and unpatriotic.
I find no mention of a "national anthem" or a "flag" in the US Constitution.
When did we first start having an official "national anthem"? When did we start standing for it? Under what circumstances, and who advocated that action?
I loath virtue-signaling patriotism. I see it at every governmental meeting here, where mindless politicians begin each meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance while facing the flag. When you know that most of them haven't read the Constitution since middle school, if that.
Patriotism isn't found in standing for a song at an athletic event. Or pledging "allegiance". It's a bit more than that...
It seems to me to be an entirely legitimate, and inherently peaceful form of protest by some athletes who are in a singular position to take a quiet stand against injustice.
Trump and his coven of white nationalist alt.right bros should be as roundly ignored as is possible. Disgusting pissants.
I find no mention of a "national anthem" or a "flag" in the US Constitution.
When did we first start having an official "national anthem"? When did we start standing for it? Under what circumstances, and who advocated that action?
I loath virtue-signaling patriotism. I see it at every governmental meeting here, where mindless politicians begin each meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance while facing the flag. When you know that most of them haven't read the Constitution since middle school, if that.
Patriotism isn't found in standing for a song at an athletic event. Or pledging "allegiance". It's a bit more than that...
"The last refuge of scoundrels" comes to mind. Watch what they do, not what they say. I don't have much truck with flags and loyalty oaths; I just go my own way being a good, responsible citizen. That's entirely enough.
White identity politics, LOL
The only identity politics progressives won't embrace and the only identity politics they see behind every thought and action. It would be funny if it weren't so divisive.
Indeed. Trump's use of it to get elected hasnt been particularly funny at all.
Indeed. Trump's use of it to get elected hasnt been particularly funny at all.
It's just given his nationalist bros the green light to come out of the shadows and put their hatred into action.
frugal-one
9-24-17, 5:50pm
from Bae
Patriotism isn't found in standing for a song at an athletic event. Or pledging "allegiance".
I disagree.. Look at the olympics, when the national anthem is played for the various gold medalists ... tears come their eyes. It is a symbol of patriotism.
Williamsmith
9-24-17, 5:55pm
Well, professional sports owners have had no qualms in politicizing their sport in order to profit. Military aircraft flyovers, flag waving, national anthem singing, God Bless America singing, camo uniforms, salutes to present and past member s of the military, police and fire.......if it inspires fans to cheer and get warm fuzzy feelings and buy more merchandise it's all cool. So you have kids salute the flag, say the pledge and sing the anthem all their lives and you tell them to not get disjointed when disrespect is displayed. Not sure I find the consistency no matter how or when it came about.....it is.
Maybe instead of getting bent out of shape people should be asking why a certain segment of our population is choosing to 'show disrespect'. And then actually listen to the answer instead of just saying 'you're wrong, you ungrateful jerk.'
Williamsmith
9-24-17, 6:14pm
Maybe instead of getting bent out of shape people should be asking why a certain segment of our population is choosing to 'show disrespect'. And then actually listen to the answer instead of just saying 'you're wrong, you ungrateful jerk.'
I can only speak for myself. I have listened.
Maybe instead of getting bent out of shape people should be asking why a certain segment of our population is choosing to 'show disrespect'. And then actually listen to the answer instead of just saying 'you're wrong, you ungrateful jerk.'
Yeah--that part seems to be ignored outright by those more enamored of symbols.
I'm impressed that the protests have been heretofore peaceful. No credit for that, I guess.
iris lilies
9-24-17, 6:44pm
from Bae
Patriotism isn't found in standing for a song at an athletic event. Or pledging "allegiance".
I disagree.. Look at the olympics, when the national anthem is played for the various gold medalists ... tears come their eyes. It is a symbol of patriotism.
It is true that many people like the respect for our country expressed in these traditional actions of anthem singing and pledging. You had better believe that these football players are meeting these people on their turf and are actively challenging that idea of "respect"; whether or not the pledging and anthem singing is actually patriotic isn't the point. If people were painting their hair green and turning somersaults in the aisle as a show of patriotism, the football players would be using those actions to show their disregard.
It is a show of distain for patriotic people and their values, that's what these protesting football players are all about.
I agree with bae that that patriotism is not necessarily found in these actions and we should be taking real action to protect our freedoms and support the ideals of our country. I can see that one such action might be to do as jp1 suggests and listen to what these football players have to say. But for me, I have no interest in rehashing the same old same old, there is nothing new that will come out of these desired dialogs. More yammering just bores me. Sorry/not sorry.
At least I am self aware enough to understand my privelege, that while race politics for a privileged white woman like me are a bore, for African Americans who are negatively impacted dailey by racism, it is a little more than "a bore."
But I have been living in the midst of race politics for decades, someone is always calling for "dialog" here as if another "conversation" will actually accomplish something. It never ends.
Williamsmith
9-24-17, 6:45pm
I'll be impressed when football players protest by not showing up on the field....period! Pretty sure they value their paychecks more than their values.
iris lilies
9-24-17, 6:48pm
I'll be impressed when football players protest by not showing up on the field....period! Pretty sure they value their paychecks more than their values.
That is a good point, and it is more of the same of doing what is easy to show respect/disrespect for their country.
Chicken lady
9-24-17, 7:11pm
My Dd went to school in the 9th grade. She came home the first day and informed me "they have us stand up and say the pledge every morning. I'm not sure how I feel about that." I told her she didn't have to say it or put her hand over her heart, but that she should stand as a sign of respect for her classmates just as she was taught to silently bow her head when others pray.
she came home the second day and said "potentially" will scan exactly the same as "under god" if I say that, I can mean it. So every day she pledged her allegiance to a nation that was potentially indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
It's hard to see how either Trump or the pampered princes of the NFL have the moral standing to either add to or detract from what the flag represents. Ill manners are best dealt with by ignoring them.
Look at the olympics, when the national anthem is played for the various gold medalists ... tears come their eyes. It is a symbol of patriotism.
1946
I was trying to post the Wikipedia story on Tommie Smith, John Carlos and Peter Norman but I can't get the link to work.
flowerseverywhere
9-24-17, 7:27pm
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/823174199036542980?lang=en
what the liar in chief tweeted in January.
And now now it has been revealed Jared Kushner used his private email account to conduct White House business, including with people like Bannon and Preibus. "Lock him up, Lock him up".
flowerseverywhere
9-24-17, 7:29pm
It's hard to see how either Trump or the pampered princes of the NFL have the moral standing to either add to or detract from what the flag represents. Ill manners are best dealt with by ignoring them.
I so so agree with this. Show the flag or the anthem singer during the anthem. People who hear about stuff like this can vote with their channel changer or don't attend games or buy merchandise. Easy.
By by the way, anyone see the stands during the anthem? People are talking, playing with their phones, going for a hot dog. Hypocrites.
And no one batted an eye when Bush appointees used private email.
After a few years of indoctrination, I quit saying "under God" too. It never felt right to me; less and less so over the years. Now I would probably stand and say nothing.
Chicken lady
9-24-17, 7:52pm
I think she had trouble with everything after "nation"
rosarugosa
9-24-17, 8:03pm
The words to the original pledge were: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." They should have left well enough alone, but I don't much like the idea of the pledge regardless of the wording. I agree with what others have said about pledges and anthems having little to do with true patriotism.
I am amazed at this tempest in a teapot over football players, of all people. I consider sports figures to be the most irrelevant creatures on the planet and cannot fathom why anyone cares what they do, but I'm clearly a minority opinion in the good old USA.
flowerseverywhere
9-24-17, 8:10pm
The NFL is a collection of private businesses. If the business owners are happy with their employees making political statements at work, that's fine. Presumably they are intelligent businessfolk, and have reasons for their decision one way or another. From the stream of statements from the various teams' CEOs, they seem OK with the current practice.
The President shouldn't be yelling at private businesses telling them how to run their show and making demands of them.
Especially when he hasn't delivered my tax reform yet.
i'm still waiting for healthcare that covers more people, is more comprehensive and Is cheaper. He promised both Healthcare and tax reform on sixty minutes. Plus defeating isis, and banning muslims.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2016/11/14/in-60-minutes-interview-heres-what-trump-said-about-healthcare/#391afab12173
And no one batted an eye when Bush appointees used private email.
After a few years of indoctrination, I quit saying "under God" too. It never felt right to me; less and less so over the years. Now I would probably stand and say nothing.
Congress added those words ("under God") to the Bellamy pledge in 1954, for reasons which are an interesting topic of discussion.
I find the whole idea of pledging allegiance to a flag repulsive on many levels.
The President shouldn't be yelling at private businesses telling them how to run their show and making demands of them.
Actually, isn't that illegal for the President to do that?
All this BS is another reason I'm glad to be a hockey fan. You don't tend to see this sort of thing in the NHL, as well as a lack of a lot of the thugishness you see in the NBA/NFL.
Williamsmith
9-24-17, 11:13pm
Roger Goodell is a joke. What has he done about the violence his players have committed against women? What has he done about chronic traumatic encephalopathy? Nothing.
This is the response that is occurring all across the country today.....
https://youtu.be/ULJ4quHQxG4
Or this....
https://youtu.be/yiFvl5AgWes
Or this...
https://youtu.be/D17T7syofwM
Or this...
https://youtu.be/UWnWm62My-g
well...you get the idea.
It's hard to see how either Trump or the pampered princes of the NFL have the moral standing to either add to or detract from what the flag represents. Ill manners are best dealt with by ignoring them.
Michael Benett was not treated as a pampered prince when Las Vegas police, mistaking the sound of velvet rope stands falling over for gunfire, threatened to blow his effing head off because he happened to be in the area.
Trump grew up pampered. Most of the players did not. Their perspectives could not be more different.
All this BS is another reason I'm glad to be a hockey fan. You don't tend to see this sort of thing in the NHL, as well as a lack of a lot of the thugishness you see in the NBA/NFL.
Hockey is known for its fights. So that's okay with you, but peaceful political protest is not?
Thug has indeed become a code word.
Fights are part of the on-ice stuff.
You don't tend to get the criminal behavior, domestic violence, and all-around stupid behavior you often see with NFL and NBA players. Let alone the political BS from whiny millionaire players who don't seem to get how privileged they are.
Thugs are gonna thug. Canadian farm boys don't seem to get into the criminal behavior much.
Thugs are gonna thug. Canadian farm boys don't seem to get into the criminal behavior much.
I was in Vancouver attending a musical event in 2011. Imagine my surprise when I came out.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/cms/binary/4957033.jpg?size=640x420
I'm talking about the players, not the fans, Bae.
flowerseverywhere
9-25-17, 7:59am
This morning Trump tweeted how great it was that NASCAR drivers and crews did not partake in the protest. Well duh, they are a 99% white group.
Williamsmith
9-25-17, 8:33am
None have benefitted more from the exploitation of patriotism than the Coaches, Players and Owners of the NFL. They marketed it and all of the pieces of the marketing were provided absolutely free. Flyovers, displays of flags, honoring symbols of patriotism....have all been done to gin up the fan base.
Now they show the hypocrites that they have been. All the while putting on grand displays of respect and honor ...they now when faced with a good number of players dissatisfaction, pontificate about constitutional rights and freedom.
Well let let me ask this. What has to change that would cause players and coaches and owners to stand for the anthem again?
A good response would be to relagate their performances to the insignificance that they are. No national anthem period. Take away their silly platform. It's just polictical grandstanding against the President. The Orange One hasn't divided this country one bit. All he has done is exposed the latent divisions that have always been there. He took the exposed photo paper and dipped it developer.
What you won't see is a player strike. They can talk all about solidarity but money is more important to them than their dissatisfactions with treatment of their fellow man.
Fights are part of the on-ice stuff.
You don't tend to get the criminal behavior, domestic violence, and all-around stupid behavior you often see with NFL and NBA players. Let alone the political BS from whiny millionaire players who don't seem to get how privileged they are.
Thugs are gonna thug. Canadian farm boys don't seem to get into the criminal behavior much.
Only about half of NHL players are Canadian. Of those, it isn't clear how many are farm boys.
That being said, hockey is an esthetically superior sport to football or basketball, but not to baseball.
None have benefitted more from the exploitation of patriotism than the Coaches, Players and Owners of the NFL. They marketed it and all of the pieces of the marketing were provided absolutely free. Flyovers, displays of flags, honoring symbols of patriotism....have all been done to gin up the fan base.
Now they show the hypocrites that they have been. All the while putting on grand displays of respect and honor ...they now when faced with a good number of players dissatisfaction, pontificate about constitutional rights and freedom.
Well let let me ask this. What has to change that would cause players and coaches and owners to stand for the anthem again?
A good response would be to relagate their performances to the insignificance that they are. No national anthem period. Take away their silly platform. It's just polictical grandstanding against the President. The Orange One hasn't divided this country one bit. All he has done is exposed the latent divisions that have always been there. He took the exposed photo paper and dipped it developer.
What you won't see is a player strike. They can talk all about solidarity but money is more important to them than their dissatisfactions with treatment of their fellow man.
Given their slipping ratings, I would think a politically motivated players strike could be life-threatening to the league.
Hockey and baseball, the two best sports out there to watch! One for summer, one for winter, perfectly balanced.
Aw Gordie Howe, we hardly knew ye.
frugal-one
9-25-17, 9:03am
The Orange One hasn't divided this country one bit.
You OBVIOUSLY are not living in the same world as the rest of us. How you can even make this statement is laughable!
I doubt very much Williamsmith has been living in any hole; his posts certainly indicate he is out there engaged in the world in a positive way. Not sure why you would ask that, just because his take on things is not your take on things.
Hockey and baseball, the two best sports out there to watch! One for summer, one for winter, perfectly balanced.
Aw Gordie Howe, we hardly knew ye.
Or Stan Mikita, Tony Esposito, the brothers Hull or Keith Magnuson. Or perhaps the complete roster of the Chicago Blackhawks of the 1970s. We will not see their like again.
I lived in Chicago in the 70's. My team, my team.
You OBVIOUSLY are not living in the same world as the rest of us. How you can even make this statement is laughable!
His point was that he simply exploited existing divisions, rather than create them, which I find plausible enough here in my world.
I lived in Chicago in the 70's. My team, my team.
Me too. It was like Camelot with some missing teeth.
Divide and conquer, straight from the Obama playbook. Has no one been paying attention the last 8 1/2 years? And what do the players think that they will achieve?
The owners are paying them and if they are ok with it, fine. I'll just watch something else, and no more money for NFL merchandise. I don't buy it for myself, but have for presents.
I'm not sure what to think of all of this. Trump is so crazy, I can't believe he was elected. I think Trump could have said things in a better way.......like he knows everyone has the right to express their opinion and he appreciates the non-violent way they did it, but he's still disappointed. But we know Trump and how he loves to create conflict, then step back and get high, watching the fighting.
As far as dmc's comment about Obama dividing and conquering.......I don't think he did that at all, but it was a response from the right wing against just having a black president and their fears of what that might mean to the U.S. (whites, in general).....and it took off into other areas. Then the left had to react more, etc., etc., etc. and the pendulum swings out of control.....
goldensmom
9-25-17, 9:46am
Perspective. I think we need perspective. This has become such a big ('polo' - I like that) deal. Sure is nice that we (as a nation) can worry, debate, spit and sputter about such an issue whereas many in the world are simply concerned with whether they will live to eat another day. This too will pass.
I consider sports figures to be the most irrelevant creatures on the planet and cannot fathom why anyone cares what they do, but I'm clearly a minority opinion in the good old USA.
I'm on your team.
Fights are part of the on-ice stuff.
You don't tend to get the criminal behavior, domestic violence, and all-around stupid behavior you often see with NFL and NBA players. Let alone the political BS from whiny millionaire players who don't seem to get how privileged they are.
Thugs are gonna thug. Canadian farm boys don't seem to get into the criminal behavior much.
I guess that's why the NHL instituted mandatory sexual assault training?
https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2016/1/15/10775322/nhl-instates-mandatory-domestic-violence-and-sexual-assault-training
frugal-one
9-25-17, 10:36am
His point was that he simply exploited existing divisions, rather than create them, which I find plausible enough here in my world.
You have a short memory of when Trump was campaigning and said he would pay attorney fees for those hitting others. FIRST example that comes to mind.
You have a short memory of when Trump was campaigning and said he would pay attorney fees for those hitting others. FIRST example that comes to mind.
Once again, the original point was not that Mr. Trump is an innocent lamb. The point was that all those nasty buttons he's pushing today were wired up for him by decades of identity politics and elite neglect. He did not spring fully formed from the aether as our new Ogre-in-Chief; he is the result of larger political forces. Bad as he may be, he is more creation than creator of our present sad situation.
Teacher Terry
9-25-17, 12:25pm
Obama was about bringing the country together unlike the Orange One who wants to rip it apart. I saw an interview with Hilary who said she has trusted every other President to do what they thought was best no matter what party until now.
Has our Blabbermouth in Chief bothered to express any concern for Puerto Rico or any of the other islands ravaged by Maria? Or is still too busy berating black athletes?
This morning Trump tweeted how great it was that NASCAR drivers and crews did not partake in the protest. Well duh, they are a 99% white group.
Actually he tweeted how great it was that NASCAR will slam anyone who does partake in the protest.
That being said, hockey is an esthetically superior sport to football or basketball, but not to baseball.
Lacrosse is the way to go.
Has our Blabbermouth in Chief bothered to express any concern for Puerto Rico or any of the other islands ravaged by Maria? Or is still too busy berating black athletes?
He has, but there are juicier tidbits available for the mediacracy to offer up right now.
Lacrosse is the way to go.
Lacrosse Wisconsin for Octoberfest, maybe.
Has our Blabbermouth in Chief bothered to express any concern for Puerto Rico or any of the other islands ravaged by Maria? Or is still too busy berating black athletes?
I have friends and relatives in the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. It's "not good" there now.
I'm glad our President has his Tweeting priorities straight...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/local/weather/san-juan-mayor-there-is-horror-in-the-streets/2017/09/23/83469f26-a0a0-11e7-b2a7-bc70b6f98089_video.html?utm_term=.bd2b8ff322ec
ApatheticNoMore
9-25-17, 2:58pm
None have benefitted more from the exploitation of patriotism than the Coaches, Players and Owners of the NFL. They marketed it and all of the pieces of the marketing were provided absolutely free. Flyovers, displays of flags, honoring symbols of patriotism....have all been done to gin up the fan base.
well actually of course they were paid by the defense department for all this, so yes they did pocket the money, but it wasn't all about sales and capitalizing on patriotism to boost sales so much as about directly taking defense department money, a far more direct route.
http://atlantablackstar.com/2016/09/19/defense-department-paid-sports-teams-53m-taxpayer-dollars-play-anthem-stage-over-the-top-military-tributes/
woah be to the person who just wants to watch a baseball game or something because they like the sport, and forget about politics and patriotism for the most part for awhile. It's all this baseball game has been brought to you by the letters D.O.D. now stand for several patriotic tributes with fighter jets and songs and etc.. (I think there may have always been some of this patriotic grandstanding in some sports, however clearly taking it to such a deafening volume was D.O.D. sponsored, we know that much).
He has, but there are juicier tidbits available for the mediacracy to offer up right now.
There's only so much that can be written about one tweet that was issued five days ago.
Williamsmith
9-25-17, 4:30pm
I have friends and relatives in the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. It's "not good" there now.
I'm glad our President has his Tweeting priorities straight...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/local/weather/san-juan-mayor-there-is-horror-in-the-streets/2017/09/23/83469f26-a0a0-11e7-b2a7-bc70b6f98089_video.html?utm_term=.bd2b8ff322ec
Well, the same news outlets were bashing people who live in coastal areas like Houston and Florida for expecting the rest of the country to rush to their aid ......I seem to recall. FEMA has yet to pay my son a visit in Houston and Harvey was before Irma was before Maria......take a number and have a seat.
..take a number and have a seat.
I did, some time ago. My technical rescue team is on-deck for deployment on short-notice. Self-deployment is frowned upon in these sorts of situations.
Miss Cellane
9-25-17, 4:33pm
I struggle to see what is so disrespectful about kneeling instead of standing for the national anthem. From the first time a player knelt for the anthem, I was impressed with the action.
Kneeling can be a sign of respect. Kneeling instead of standing says, I won't disrespect the flag, but I am not happy with the current state of affairs in my country.
No one is burning the flag, spitting on it or otherwise disrespecting it. The kneelers are respectful, but making it clear that they disagree with the racial politics currently in play.
Frankly, I thought it was a pretty smart move--respectful and defiant at the same time. I'm just sorry that the guy who knelt first can't get a job anymore.
What I find interesting is people with MAGA hats (the wearing of which is publicly saying there's something wrong with America) are saying how wrong it is for these athletes publicly saying there is something wrong with America.
Last week, anyway. Now I expect just as many are protesting because of Trump calling their mothers a rude name.
Has our Blabbermouth in Chief bothered to express any concern for Puerto Rico or any of the other islands ravaged by Maria? Or is still too busy berating black athletes?
I'm still wondering if he'll even acknowledge the horrible earthquake in Mexico City. He'll probably bitch about what implications this will have on them paying for the wall. What an absolute jerk.
flowerseverywhere
9-25-17, 5:57pm
Actually he tweeted how great it was that NASCAR will slam anyone who does partake in the protest.
Not exactly but certainly not worth worrying about. There is no official policy but some owners did speak out. There is a totally different culture in NASCAR. Perhaps if they were 70% black men like the NFL they would think differently about things because they would have had a totally different life experience.
Not exactly but certainly not worth worrying about. There is no official policy but some owners did speak out. There is a totally different culture in NASCAR. Perhaps if they were 70% black men like the NFL they would think differently about things because they would have had a totally different life experience.
Dale Earnhardt begs to disagree with his bosses :
Earnhardt, who will retire from full-time racing at the end of the season, said in a Twitter message Monday morning that Americans are "granted rights" to conduct "peaceful protests" and quoted President Kennedy's speech from March 1962.
All Americans R granted rights 2 peaceful protests
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable-JFK
— Dale Earnhardt Jr. (@DaleJr) September 25, 2017
Dale Earnhardt begs to disagree with his bosses :
[I]Earnhardt, who will retire from full-time racing at the end of the season, said in a Twitter message Monday morning that Americans are "granted rights" to conduct "peaceful protests" and quoted President Kennedy's speech from March 1962.
I think casting this as a free-speech/First Amendment issue is a mistake.
These take-the-knee protests are not occurring in some public place. They are occurring while the protesters are on-the-job, at their place of work. The First Amendment doesn't significantly apply - my employer can and does restrict my ability to engage in free speech/assembly/... at work.
That said, the owners of the businesses, the employers of these folks, don't seem to have real issue with the behaviour, and seem to be endorsing it, as is their right.
Just an observation - is it not all the public commentary about the NFL/NBA players' action simply an attempt by Trump to distract the attention away from problems affecting him directly? It is succeeding very well in the distracting effort, it seems, from the discussions here.
I will butt totally out again.
Just an observation - is it not all the public commentary about the NFL/NBA players' action simply an attempt by Trump to distract the attention away from problems affecting him directly? It is succeeding very well in the distracting effort, it seems, from the discussions here.
It seems he is the master of this sort of thing. He changes the channel of the discussion with a single Tweet, and the whole nation falls for it.
iris lilies
9-25-17, 6:53pm
It seems he is the master of this sort of thing. He changes the channel of the discussion with a single Tweet, and the whole nation falls for it.
He is not master of anything. He is a dumb Orange Idiot.
oh wait, hmmm. What you said.
You know, the liberal left's buddies in the mainstream media could stop with the 24/7 bleeting of one Trump Story day in day out. These fools had a big hand in electing him.
ApatheticNoMore
9-25-17, 6:54pm
What is it distracting from again? The Republicans failures to pass an ACA repeal that is even less popular than the ACA, for like the 20th time or something? Well it's not like that wouldn't get really boring on it's own otherwise or anything ... Yes it is *important* but ...
Maybe it is some kind of cover for the Republican congress who would be even more unpopular otherwise, or maybe their bills that don't pass are themselves a distraction.
Yes the Trump administration does a lot of small harmful things that don't get a lot of press, but that is often the case with Presidents (not denying Trump is more harmful mind you, just saying not every issue ever gets coverage).
I did, some time ago. My technical rescue team is on-deck for deployment on short-notice. Self-deployment is frowned upon in these sorts of situations.
the group that organized the fly in of supplies to both Harvey and Irma was able to get there faster due to not waiting for the normal Relief efforts. I was informed that they were setting up flights to Puerto Rico , but a 1000 miles over water during hurricane season is a little to much for me.
In case you want to help.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/operationairdrop
flowerseverywhere
9-25-17, 7:13pm
It seems he is the master of this sort of thing. He changes the channel of the discussion with a single Tweet, and the whole nation falls for it.
exactly. I think these issues are going to end up in lawsuits, akin to the religious accommodation lawsuits. but for now no one is talking about the hurricane relief, tax reform, health care, Jarod Kushners emails or Russia. Or barely North Korea. The health care vote may happen this week while people are burning their Steelers jerseys or are otherwise distracted.
He's apparently dragging his feet on getting aid to Puerto Rico in an attempt to coerce them into privatizing their power grid.
I'm perfectly capable of reacting to more than one outrage at a time, but it gets exhausting after a while.
Looks like Trump sent out some real zingers about Puerto Rico on Twitter this evening.
flowerseverywhere
9-26-17, 3:56am
Looks like Trump sent out some real zingers about Puerto Rico on Twitter this evening.
just read about the Jones act, which has not been waived for Puerto Rico. But they are more brown skinned as a whole...
so let's see who he has alienated. NFL and various other athletes, various people of Hispanic descent. LGBT community. Many Women. Many African Americans. Lots of people who are not rich white men. Imagine that.
just read about the Jones act, which has not been waived for Puerto Rico. But they are more brown skinned as a whole...
¡Majadero! —dijo a esta sazón don Quijote—, a los caballeros andantes no les toca ni atañe averiguar si los afligidos, encadenados y opresos que encuentran por los caminos van de aquella manera, o están en aquella angustia, por sus culpas o por sus gracias; sólo le toca ayudarles como a menesterosos, poniendo los ojos en sus penas y no en sus bellaquerías.
Maybe the Steelers stumbled on the right solution. Let the veterans on the field for the anthem to honor their service, letting them assume any pose they like. The rest can wait in the tunnel.
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 10:36am
The Steelers have pissed off most their fan base. They expect all of them to be standing for the anthem. Before and after the anthem any player can stand on their head and spit nickels for all the fans care. Ive been cooling off on the NFL for a couple years. Last Sunday's fiasco resulted in me putting them in the ice tray. I don't need a sports team to fulfill my life. I do follow the Cleaveland Indians closely out of a personal connection with the team. And I like the Pittsburgh Penguins. I tune in to forget about politics and such....not be reminded.
flowerseverywhere
9-26-17, 11:02am
The Steelers have pissed off most their fan base. They expect all of them to be standing for the anthem. Before and after the anthem any player can stand on their head and spit nickels for all the fans care. Ive been cooling off on the NFL for a couple years. Last Sunday's fiasco resulted in me putting them in the ice tray. I don't need a sports team to fulfill my life. I do follow the Cleaveland Indians closely out of a personal connection with the team. And I like the Pittsburgh Penguins. I tune in to forget about politics and such....not be reminded.
I just don't get what the big deal is. Just turn on the TV after the anthem. If announcers talk about it turn the volume down. Personally the media is fanning the flames too. Don't let anyone bully you into deciding how you spend your free time. If you don't like football or baseball or whatever sport don't turn it on at all. A little thing that bothered a few people has been turned into a major fiasco to serve the agenda of the tweeter. Distract from the failures of the Republican congress, senate and presidency to pass meaningful healthcare legislation, immigration reform, deal with the multiple disasters that have befallen the mainland and Puerto Rico, and tax reform. They promised for going on eight years now that we would all have better healthcare that was cheaper and was "constitutional." Whether or not someone stands during an anthem has no bearing on you if you choose not to be drawn into the drama and politics.
and by the way, if people give up their season tickets there will be a stampede to get in line at the stadiums to buy them.
flowerseverywhere
9-26-17, 11:03am
¡Majadero! —dijo a esta sazón don Quijote—, a los caballeros andantes no les toca ni atañe averiguar si los afligidos, encadenados y opresos que encuentran por los caminos van de aquella manera, o están en aquella angustia, por sus culpas o por sus gracias; sólo le toca ayudarles como a menesterosos, poniendo los ojos en sus penas y no en sus bellaquerías.
Tried to translate this and I think it means something like let them eat cake.
iris lilies
9-26-17, 11:30am
The Steelers have pissed off most their fan base. They expect all of them to be standing for the anthem. Before and after the anthem any player can stand on their head and spit nickels for all the fans care. Ive been cooling off on the NFL for a couple years. Last Sunday's fiasco resulted in me putting them in the ice tray. I don't need a sports team to fulfill my life. I do follow the Cleaveland Indians closely out of a personal connection with the team. And I like the Pittsburgh Penguins. I tune in to forget about politics and such....not be reminded.
There is an interesting opinion and maybe even fact, declared by Snopes as being partially true, that players didnt come out onto the field until after the anthem until around 2009. Around then the Department of Justice paid the NFL to push a message of patriotism honoring veterans by includong players in the National Anthem.
There is also the thought about the action of the tunneled Steelers, which I found interesting, that staying in the tunnel is neutral behavior, neither pro nor con "taking a knee."
It would be a good thing if this brouhaha got us talking about the legitimate grievances being protested, but I don't hold out much hope.
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 12:37pm
There is an interesting opinion and maybe even fact, declared by Snopes as being partially true, that players didnt come out onto the field until after the anthem until around 2009. Around then the Department of Justice paid the NFL to push a message of patriotism honoring veterans by includong players in the National Anthem.
There is also the thought about the action of the tunneled Steelers, which I found interesting, that staying in the tunnel is neutral behavior, neither pro nor con "taking a knee."
I could wax philosophically about racism and patriotism, in a rudimentary way of course. But the thought crossed my mind.....what would be the response of the left if white players took a knee during the playing of the national anthem in protest of the killing of millions of children by abortion? My guess is the outrage would be tremendous and the NFL would put an end to it post haste. In fact, lets go further....what if everybody started taking a knee for a myriad of different causes during the anthem or stuck there thumbs in their ears and stuck their tongues out in protest of this and that? They have a right according to the league.......they don't but apparently that is just a talking point. Maybe some of them should take a knee for Puerto Rico.....
The players are asked to play the game not be political spokespersons. For three minutes per week during only the season they are expected to stand in respect for the unity of America. They dont because they specifically know it will piss off a bunch of people. They got what they hoped for. I am expecting a player strike movement. Don't know if it will succeed but it will be interesting if it develops.
ToomuchStuff
9-26-17, 1:15pm
This started before our current President was in office but the virtue signaling that goes along with it seems to suddenly be tied to him nonetheless.
I'm a live and let live kinda guy but that doesn't mean I should respect every action someone else takes. I'm also a football fan and will continue to support my favorite team until such time as they pull the same thing the Steelers did today, remaining in the locker room until the National Anthem was completed. One Steeler, a former Army Ranger, did come out and place his hand over his heart. That took more courage than the rest of the team combined showed in staying inside.
As for me, this sums up my feelings:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1945&stc=1
There goes proposals.
Then of course this...
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1947&stc=1
:laff:
"
The players are asked to play the game not be political spokespersons. For three minutes per week during only the season they are expected to stand in respect for the unity of America. They dont because they specifically know it will piss off a bunch of people. They got what they hoped for. I am expecting a player strike movement. Don't know if it will succeed but it will be interesting if it develops.
If they are being asked to play a game and not be political spokespersons, then why would they be expected "to stand in respect for the unity of America"-- that is a political statement, what is unity of America. If you feel disenfranchised because of your skin color, then where is the unity?
I also think it is untrue that they are kneeling in order to "piss off a bunch of people." They are kneeling to express their protest about how they and their families have been treated. It's an expression of free speech. Why in the world should they be fired and damned for an expression of free speech.
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 1:26pm
"
If they are being asked to play a game and not be political spokespersons, then why would they be expected "to stand in respect for the unity of America"-- that is a political statement, what is unity of America. If you feel disenfranchised because of your skin color, then where is the unity?
I also think it is untrue that they are kneeling in order to "piss off a bunch of people." They are kneeling to express their protest about how they and their families have been treated. It's an expression of free speech. Why in the world should they be fired and damned for an expression of free speech.
Because it is an employer / employee relationship. Not a first amendment right.
If its an employer/employee relationship then they have no right to demand you stand up for an anthem or hold your hand a certain way., or say the pledge of allegiance or sign a loyalty oath.
Because it is an employer / employee relationship. Not a first amendment right.
Judging from the actions of their employers this weekend it would appear that the employers dont have any problem with this.
If you're going to protest, do it at home. Or somewhere else where it doesn't inconvenience anyone or make them uncomfortable. Just suck it up, why don't you?:doh:
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 2:22pm
Judging from the actions of their employers this weekend it would appear that the employers dont have any problem with this.
Thats why fans are not only angry at the players and coaches but also their owners. And doesn't a fan have the right to protest? Booing...Facebook and Twitter are fair game, no? After all, a fan is not under contract....thankfully so. The owners will not have any problem with anything as long as they think it benefits them financially. Right now they are scared to death of a player rebellion which would mean the free flow of money from fandom and advertising would be halted.
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 2:28pm
This whole issue has been interesting for me but I'm going to admit I'm not completely up to speed on it as I've been very busy, the season is starting and now that I'm in a different job title there will be no sending me home early as when I was a banquet server - sometimes this would happen. Not anymore! And then of course I have my causes I am an activist for that take up what little free time I've got - the big one lately is the Salt Lake City PD Human Rights Violation(s),i.e. the Alex Wubbels arrest and the fear of proof that all Americans are vulnerable to being assaulted, roughed up, and illegally and unconstitutionally arrested for no legal reason WHATSOEVER.....to me this is a cause that will never die regardless of the eventual outcome/multi-million dollar payout(s). So, the point of all this? I'm not up to speed on this.
Also, I share the stereotypical gay male dislike of organized sports so the NFL doesn't mean very much to me unless I'm working a Food and Beverage event somehow related.
At first I was under the impression that the brouhaha was about the players refusing to stand during the national anthem - which to me is no big deal, as I've stated numerous times flags and anthems and displays of patriotism don't move me one iota as any given country is only renting me for the time being, and in my mind that's how that should be. So I didn't understand the commotion.....UNTIL -
I read online - and you'all can correct me here, especially since I admit I'm not up to speed - that the meaning behind the refusal to stand up for the national anthem was due to protesting police brutality. If this is the case (?), that sheds a whole new light on the issue for me and I have to say I kneel with the NFL players in spirit, if this is indeed their motivation to begin with. I'll look a little further as time allows - but holy cow, how interesting that I as a gay man could actually have some completely unforseen respect for NFL players......more proof there's something to the saying Never say never LOL. Rob
PS If this is indeed the case, that the kneeling thing is due to the players involved protesting police brutality, I might just actually have to give football a chance, boring and complex as I find it to begin with. I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT!!!!! Never say never.
Also, I share the stereotypical gay male dislike of organized sports ....
Dude. Check yourself.
http://elitedaily.com/life/stereotypes-gay-men/1292351/
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 2:36pm
Dude. Check yourself.
http://elitedaily.com/life/stereotypes-gay-men/1292351/It is a stereotype, bae, did I not admit as much in my post? Going beyond that, it is a stereotype that in my case fits. It doesn't fit every gay man, true that, but in my case it fits. And then also I have a hard time watching pro sports because the athletes are very much overpaid and none of this money sifts down to the lower social classes, so morally and ethically I've had a hard time giving pro sports a chance. Rob
It would be a good thing if this brouhaha got us talking about the legitimate grievances being protested, but I don't hold out much hope.
I think we hear about those grievances relentlessly enough without being treated to the unsolicited political opinions of football players, pop singers and Broadway actors.
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 2:38pm
This started before our current President was in office but the virtue signaling that goes along with it seems to suddenly be tied to him nonetheless.
I'm a live and let live kinda guy but that doesn't mean I should respect every action someone else takes. I'm also a football fan and will continue to support my favorite team until such time as they pull the same thing the Steelers did today, remaining in the locker room until the National Anthem was completed. One Steeler, a former Army Ranger, did come out and place his hand over his heart. That took more courage than the rest of the team combined showed in staying inside.
As for me, this sums up my feelings:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1945&stc=1It's not OK to kneel in church? Rob
It is a stereotype, bae, did I not admit as much in my post?
It's a harmful stereotype, and people should know better than to repeat that sort of homophobic nonsense.
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 2:40pm
It would be a good thing if this brouhaha got us talking about the legitimate grievances being protested, but I don't hold out much hope.Jane, from what I've heard the NFL players refusing to stand for the national anthem are protesting police brutality? I'm not sure but as time allows I'll look into it. Police brutality is rather one of my causes, as many here know by now so if this is the case they have scored some points with me - if this is indeed the case. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 2:43pm
It's a harmful stereotype, and people should know better than to repeat that sort of homophobic nonsense.Dude (as you referred to me above, normally I would not use this word).......to me it's not harmful as it fits. It fits most gay men - true, not all - that I have ever met......though to be honest my husband follows soccer and is really into it. So there's one exception, I'll give you that. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 2:45pm
I think we hear about those grievances relentlessly enough without being treated to the unsolicited political opinions of football players, pop singers and Broadway actors.Should the stars ever align in such a way that I became famous, you'd better believe I'd use my name and the media to advocate for causes dear to my heart. I consider it a perk of fame - the ability to agitate and advocate. Unfortunately, not all who have achieved fame use it to positive ends, I'll give you that. Rob
Dude (as you referred to me above, normally I would not use this word).......to me it's not harmful as it fits. It fits most gay men - true, not all - that I have ever met......though to be honest my husband follows soccer and is really into it. So there's one exception, I'll give you that. Rob
It is harmful, and it doesn't "fit most gay men". You should not post homophobic nonsense. I'm sure if you reflect, you'll figure out why.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/why-we-need-to-end-stereotypes-around-being-gay_uk_582349fce4b09d57a9ab0836
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 4:03pm
It is harmful, and it doesn't "fit most gay men". You should not post homophobic nonsense. I'm sure if you reflect, you'll figure out why.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/why-we-need-to-end-stereotypes-around-being-gay_uk_582349fce4b09d57a9ab0836
As in many things, I suspect the lines of gay, lesbian, transgender and whatever sexual preference you have....are not that clear. And I find it kind of Stone Age thinking that we have to classify every single person and put them in boxes with alleged finite walls. The same can be said of race and ethnicity. Only the gospel according to me. Therefore the stereotype couldn't possibly be true.
I think we hear about those grievances relentlessly enough without being treated to the unsolicited political opinions of football players, pop singers and Broadway actors.
While it is certainly true that people are often pointing out the injustices of our policing system it doesn't appear that there is any sort of dialogue resulting. It seems to be a matter of one side saying 'there's a systemic problem here,' and the other side saying 'no, there's really not' and that is where the conversation ends. The side that doesn't want to have the conversation simply ignores things like the statistic from a recent study I read that found that, among many awful statistics, UNARMED black people in three major cities (Miami, Houston and Chicago) are 19X more likely to be shot during interactions with cops than are ARMED white men. Nineteen times. If that is not indicative of a fundamental flaw in the way policing is done in this country I don't know what is. And until we have an actual conversation on this topic to figure out what the solution is the people suffering the injustice are going to continue to bring up the topic over and over.
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 4:51pm
While it is certainly true that people are often pointing out the injustices of our policing system it doesn't appear that there is any sort of dialogue resulting. It seems to be a matter of one side saying 'there's a systemic problem here,' and the other side saying 'no, there's really not' and that is where the conversation ends. The side that doesn't want to have the conversation simply ignores things like the statistic from a recent study I read that found that, among many awful statistics, UNARMED black people in three major cities (Miami, Houston and Chicago) are 19X more likely to be shot during interactions with cops than are ARMED white men. Nineteen times. If that is not indicative of a fundamental flaw in the way policing is done in this country I don't know what is. And until we have an actual conversation on this topic to figure out what the solution is the people suffering the injustice are going to continue to bring up the topic over and over.
If you enter any large metropolitan area including the three you mention above...especially Chicago it is undeniable that violent crime is part of everyday life for the average African American. Place a police officer in the midst of this every day violence, no matter his/her race and he/she will be more likely to use his/her firearm in the course of duty. Which is at least part of the equation. That needs to be acknowledged by people who want it to be all about race.
While it is certainly true that people are often pointing out the injustices of our policing system it doesn't appear that there is any sort of dialogue resulting. It seems to be a matter of one side saying 'there's a systemic problem here,' and the other side saying 'no, there's really not' and that is where the conversation ends. The side that doesn't want to have the conversation simply ignores things like the statistic from a recent study I read that found that, among many awful statistics, UNARMED black people in three major cities (Miami, Houston and Chicago) are 19X more likely to be shot during interactions with cops than are ARMED white men. Nineteen times. If that is not indicative of a fundamental flaw in the way policing is done in this country I don't know what is. And until we have an actual conversation on this topic to figure out what the solution is the people suffering the injustice are going to continue to bring up the topic over and over.
I'm not sure what would qualify as a satisfactory "conversation".
I don't doubt some areas may have a problem for many reasons. I also think cops who are convicted of murdering people should be treated the same way any other murderers are, after a trial in a court of law; not a trial on social media or in the streets.
I do not think that the gestures made by twerking trollopes, pigskin gladiators or pop princesses are all that meaningful in the greater debate.
I'm not sure what would qualify as a satisfactory "conversation".
I'd love to have a conversation about why we have these areas of economic hopelessness, crime, drugs, and other poor social outcomes.
flowerseverywhere
9-26-17, 5:25pm
I'd love to have a conversation about why we have these areas of economic hopelessness, crime, drugs, and other poor social outcomes.
There is a fascinating podcast by Malcolm Gladwell in his revisionist history series called "Carlos." I suggest watching it.
It's not OK to kneel in church? Rob
This occurred to me also, having been raised in a very religious environment where to show proper respect to God you were expected to kneel during prayer unless you were disabled. Kneeling does not disrespect the flag, veterans, the pledge of allegience, or anything else.
This occurred to me also, having been raised in a very religious environment where to show proper respect to God you were expected to kneel during prayer unless you were disabled. Kneeling does not disrespect the flag, veterans, the pledge of allegience, or anything else.
http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/GTY_nfl_tim_tebow_sk_140930_4x3_992.jpg
I'm not sure what would qualify as a satisfactory "conversation".
I don't doubt some areas may have a problem for many reasons. I also think cops who are convicted of murdering people should be treated the same way any other murderers are, after a trial in a court of law; not a trial on social media or in the streets.
I do not think that the gestures made by twerking trollopes, pigskin gladiators or pop princesses are all that meaningful in the greater debate.
In answer to your question I would say that both bae and Williamsmith have provided good examples of starting points to that conversation. WS's point that cops in high crime neighborhoods are likely to respond more aggressively seems logical. And if that is the case the next step might be asking whether there are other cities with equally high crime neighborhoods were the statistics for cop interaction with black people are less awful than the three I mentioned. And if so perhaps we should be looking for what is being done differently in those cities. Or we could take the conversation in bae's direction and try to figure out why their are so many seemingly hopeless neighborhoods in this country and what can be done to help reduce them. There are probably a thousand other directions we could just as easily go. But you're right. All the gestures from twerking Trollopes and the rest aren't going to change anything if the only response from people who disagree is to just say 'you're wrong. '
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 6:08pm
The United States Flag Code.....should be reviewed with particular attention to the definition of "come to attention".
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 6:13pm
In answer to your question I would say that both bae and Williamsmith have provided good examples of starting points to that conversation. WS's point that cops in high crime neighborhoods are likely to respond more aggressively seems logical. And if that is the case the next step might be asking whether there are other cities with equally high crime neighborhoods were the statistics for cop interaction with black people are less awful than the three I mentioned. And if so perhaps we should be looking for what is being done differently in those cities. Or we could take the conversation in bae's direction and try to figure out why their are so many seemingly hopeless neighborhoods in this country and what can be done to help reduce them. There are probably a thousand other directions we could just as easily go. But you're right. All the gestures from twerking Trollopes and the rest aren't going to change anything if the only response from people who disagree is to just say 'you're wrong. '
I would say that my childhood friend and his players have made a reasonable attempt to address the inequities. I would much rather this than one thousand taking of knees on Sunday afternoon during the anthem. But I guess everyone does according to their ability. The Lary Doby Youth Fund....$1 Million dollars raised.
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2017/09/post_534.html
It's not OK to kneel in church? Rob
This occurred to me also, having been raised in a very religious environment where to show proper respect to God you were expected to kneel during prayer unless you were disabled. Kneeling does not disrespect the flag, veterans, the pledge of allegience, or anything else.
The United States Flag Code.....should be reviewed with particular attention to the definition of "come to attention".
UNITED STATES CODETITLE 36CHAPTER 10
§171. Conduct during playing
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.
§172. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.
And are we required by force of law to follow the Code? What has the Supreme Court said about the matter?
As a matter of deeply-considered philosophical conviction, I refuse to say the pledge. μολὼν λαβέ !
And are we required by force of law to follow the Code?
Of course not, disrespecting flag and country are covered under free speech, but we've recently been lectured that free speech is violence and shouldn't be condoned. What a conundrum.
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 6:48pm
And are we required by force of law to follow the Code? What has the Supreme Court said about the matter?
As a matter of deeply-considered philosophical conviction, I refuse to say the pledge. μολὼν λαβέ !
I wouldn't give a crap for anyone who said the pledge and didn't mean it or who followed the suggestions of flag etiquette and felt not the slightest bit of respect for it. For people of your own personal conviction, the Supreme Court has protected your right to be mute and emotionless.
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 7:42pm
This occurred to me also, having been raised in a very religious environment where to show proper respect to God you were expected to kneel during prayer unless you were disabled. Kneeling does not disrespect the flag, veterans, the pledge of allegience, or anything else.Thank You, Yppej. I was in morning mass just this morning, as a friend of our family who left my mother a not insignificant amount of money passed five years ago today. This is not the only reason I was in Mass, please let me stress this, but I was so grateful I was able to switch with another shift supervisor who is young and wants to go out Friday night.....I get it as I was young once and am grateful to switch with this guy so he can he see his flight attendant boyfriend Friday night and I can pray for a peaceful place for this friend of my family who has made our financial lives saner and less stressful...........Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 7:45pm
While it is certainly true that people are often pointing out the injustices of our policing system it doesn't appear that there is any sort of dialogue resulting. It seems to be a matter of one side saying 'there's a systemic problem here,' and the other side saying 'no, there's really not' and that is where the conversation ends. The side that doesn't want to have the conversation simply ignores things like the statistic from a recent study I read that found that, among many awful statistics, UNARMED black people in three major cities (Miami, Houston and Chicago) are 19X more likely to be shot during interactions with cops than are ARMED white men. Nineteen times. If that is not indicative of a fundamental flaw in the way policing is done in this country I don't know what is. And until we have an actual conversation on this topic to figure out what the solution is the people suffering the injustice are going to continue to bring up the topic over and over.+ many more than just one. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 7:51pm
As in many things, I suspect the lines of gay, lesbian, transgender and whatever sexual preference you have....are not that clear. And I find it kind of Stone Age thinking that we have to classify every single person and put them in boxes with alleged finite walls. The same can be said of race and ethnicity. Only the gospel according to me. Therefore the stereotype couldn't possibly be true.Thank You. I am quite content with planning out this Fall/Spring's Fruit/Vegetable garden while my SO is watching Soccer on Univision. It all works out well for both of us, and there are times when I am much more "masculine" than him in the eyes of society. It all balances out. Rob
I'd love to have a conversation about why we have these areas of economic hopelessness, crime, drugs, and other poor social outcomes.
They occur all the time. There are people talking about a culture of dependency, the decline of the family, evolving technology, outsourcing, the erosion of values, government's role, etc.
What has rankled to the point of electing Trump has been the belief that a "conversation" was a group of relatively privileged white people lecturing to a group of less privileged white people about their irredeemable bigotry. Unless we're prepared to believe that about half the country is blinded by hate, the situation is a lot more complicated than that.
I think the important conversation that needs to be held after a police shooting should take place in a courtroom among people in possession of the evidence, not in the streets among people in possession of megaphones.
Williamsmith
9-28-17, 9:47pm
I'd love to have a conversation about why we have these areas of economic hopelessness, crime, drugs, and other poor social outcomes.
He's a former football player, he's got an opinion and he's black.
https://youtu.be/kEcYDa7r4-I
UNITED STATES CODETITLE 36CHAPTER 10
§171. Conduct during playing
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.
§172. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.
Nice how all this is prefaced with "should" instead of "must".
ToomuchStuff
9-29-17, 1:14am
Nice how all this is prefaced with "should" instead of "must".
Should allows for first amendment issues, as well as allowing for people in wheelchairs/handicapped, etc.
Must, would be rule of law, by force and handicapped people would be arrested every game.
Now Russian trolls are trying to make this more of a wedge issue. Good for the players and owners of all races linking arms and pledging unity despite criticism of the NFL by the Trump-Putin administration.
Williamsmith
9-29-17, 5:41am
Now Russian trolls are trying to make this more of a wedge issue. Good for the players and owners of all races linking arms and pledging unity despite criticism of the NFL by the Trump-Putin administration.
You really think the owners have a social justice conscience? Or more likely they've chosen to placate their human possessions which generate enormous amounts of money to support their business model? The players are being used as tools to destroy the NFL. The NFL is just one brick in the wall that has to come down to destroy the United States. Hmmm.
Williamsmith
9-29-17, 9:23am
I read that last nights pregame anthem was attended by all the players and nobody took a knee. Now, help me understand here. Did all the racial injustice toward blacks including police brutality magically stop before last nights game? Is there no reason to take a knee now? Shouldn't those protesters now be upset that nobody took a knee? Now some will explain, they wanted to show unity with each other. Okay, but wouldn't it make more sense if everybody on the team took a knee? What could be more unifying than that? That would get people's attention and after all, that's what this is all about.
It is fascinating to me how this is evolving.
John Browns body lies a mouldering in the grave. Performed and sung for the first time in Boston just one month into the civil war.......at ......a flag raising:
Old John Brown’s body lies moldering in the grave,While weep the sons of bondage whom he ventured all to save;But tho he lost his life while struggling for the slave,His soul is marching on.(Chorus)
John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true and brave,And Kansas (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleeding_Kansas) knows his valor when he fought her rights to save;Now, tho the grass grows green above his grave,His soul is marching on.(Chorus)
He captured Harper’s Ferry (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper%27s_Ferry_Raid), with his nineteen men so few,And frightened "Old Virginny" till she trembled thru and thru;They hung him for a traitor, they themselves the traitor crew,But his soul is marching on.(Chorus)
John Brown was John the Baptist (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist) of the Christ we are to see,Christ who of the bondmen shall the Liberator be,And soon thruout the Sunny South the slaves shall all be free,For his soul is marching on.(Chorus)
The conflict that he heralded he looks from heaven to view,On the army of the Union (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Army) with its flag red, white and blue.And heaven shall ring with anthems o’er the deed they mean to do,For his soul is marching on.(Chorus)
Ye soldiers of Freedom, then strike, while strike ye may,The death blow of oppression in a better time and way,For the dawn of old John Brown has brightened into day,And his soul is marching on.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown%27s_Body
Should allows for first amendment issues, as well as allowing for people in wheelchairs/handicapped, etc.
Must, would be rule of law, by force and handicapped people would be arrested every game.
Also gives an out to a President who had to be poked by his wife to do it right.
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