View Full Version : North Korea now saying that the US has declared war.....
gimmethesimplelife
9-25-17, 1:01pm
Color me very world weary today. Worked long hours the past few days and have a day offf today and went online to catch up on what's going on beyond the texts and voicemails I've gotten from friends and neighbors and activists in the 85006 and ran across an article on yahoo.com that really depresses me - to the effect that North Korea is now claiming that the US has declared war.
Thoughts? What I am afraid of now is that there is no real room for either "leader" to save face and that millions upon millions of innocent people may perish. Rob
goldensmom
9-25-17, 1:27pm
It’s been a long time since I studied US History but I remember learning that although North Korea signed the armistice ending the hostilities of the Korean Conflict, they withdrew from the agreement several times, therefore, in essence the Korean Conflict (War) continues in the mind of North Korea. This is nothing new but it appears to be escalating.
North Korea claims a lot of things.
Color me very world weary today. Worked long hours the past few days and have a day offf today and went online to catch up on what's going on beyond the texts and voicemails I've gotten from friends and neighbors and activists in the 85006 and ran across an article on yahoo.com that really depresses me - to the effect that North Korea is now claiming that the US has declared war.
Thoughts? What I am afraid of now is that there is no real room for either "leader" to save face and that millions upon millions of innocent people may perish. Rob
Given the long, long history of overheated rhetoric and violent incidents, what do you find so uniquely terrifying about the present situation?
I guess the armistice is off?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/world/asia/trump-north-korea.html?_r=0
"North Korea threatened on Monday to shoot down American warplanes even if they are not in the country’s airspace, as its foreign minister declared that President Trump’s threatening comments about the country and its leadership were “a declaration of war.”
“The whole world should clearly remember it was the U.S. who first declared war on our country,” the foreign minister, Ri Yong-ho, told reporters as he was leaving the United Nations after a week of General Assembly meetings in New York.
“Since the United States declared war on our country, we will have every right to make countermeasures, including the right to shoot down United States strategic bombers even when they are not inside the airspace border of our country,” he said."
Ah yes, armistice has been abandoned by North Korea: (from Wiki)
"
After a new wave of UN sanctions, on 11 March 2013, North Korea claimed that it invalidated the 1953 armistice.[263] On 13 March 2013, North Korea confirmed it ended the 1953 Armistice and declared North Korea "is not restrained by the North-South declaration on non-aggression".[264] On 30 March 2013, North Korea stated that it entered a "state of war" with South Korea and declared that "The long-standing situation of the Korean peninsula being neither at peace nor at war is finally over".[38] Speaking on 4 April 2013, the U.S. Secretary of Defense, Chuck Hagel, informed the press that Pyongyang "formally informed" the Pentagon that it "ratified" the potential use of a nuclear weapon against South Korea, Japan and the United States of America, including Guam and Hawaii.[265] Hagel also stated the United States would deploy the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense anti-ballistic missile system to Guam, because of a credible and realistic nuclear threat from North Korea.[266]
In 2016, it was revealed that North Korea approached the United States about conducting formal peace talks to formally end the war. While the White House agreed to secret peace talks, the plan was rejected due to the country's refusal to discuss nuclear disarmament as part of the terms of the treaty. Any possibility of talks ended on 6 January when they conducted their fourth nuclear test.[267]
"
I could now see Trump and his generals taunting NK with a few close bomber fly-by's to up the bluff and rhetoric anti.
Heck, just fabricate a shoot-down in international airspace, problem solved.
BikingLady
9-25-17, 5:24pm
I think it is serious. Though they both sound like 5th graders, generally 5th graders do not have the toys of war use.
gimmethesimplelife
9-25-17, 5:49pm
I think it is serious. Though they both sound like 5th graders, generally 5th graders do not have the toys of war use.My thoughts exactly! Rob
flowerseverywhere
9-25-17, 5:50pm
Given the long, long history of overheated rhetoric and violent incidents, what do you find so uniquely terrifying about the present situation?
prior presidents tended to be much less reactive dealing with foreign countries and had a much more measured tone. Prior presidents seemed to listen to their advisors. Prior presidents did not call people names like losers, crooked, rocket man, sons of bitches that heats up tensions and almost invites them to respond. And this time the other side not only seems unstable, but has fervently been working on weapons that could cause a lot of death and destruction to our allies.
gimmethesimplelife
9-25-17, 5:55pm
Given the long, long history of overheated rhetoric and violent incidents, what do you find so uniquely terrifying about the present situation?Honest answer? Donald Trump's ego and my belief he's not especially mentally stable. I don't mean he's about to start wandering the streets with a bottle of Thunderbird, but rather I believe he's more than a bit of a narcisist with a strong need to have the last word and to "win" at all costs. My take is that things are enough of a powder keg already......can we afford to add Donald Trump's issues to the mix? Obviously he won the election so his imprint is in this like it or not.....but can the lives of millions of innocent people afford this? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-25-17, 5:58pm
prior presidents tended to be much less reactive dealing with foreign countries and had a much more measured tone. Prior presidents seemed to listen to their advisors. Prior presidents did not call people names like losers, crooked, rocket man, sons of bitches that heats up tensions and almost invites them to respond. And this time the other side not only seems unstable, but has fervently been working on weapons that could cause a lot of death and destruction to our allies.I very much agree with your take. You have said what I would like to a level or two the flashing red lights of my post but still very much got your point - and it's a very good and perseptive one in my book - across. Rob
Given the long, long history of overheated rhetoric and violent incidents, what do you find so uniquely terrifying about the present situation?
I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that our country is being led by a man who has no idea what he's doing and shoots off his mouth (or Tweets) inappropriately and non-stop, and who doesn't appear to pay the least attention to the qualified adults who have been drafted to try to talk him down--that makes me worried, if not terrified. We haven't had such an unqualified, reckless, undisciplined, and I believe stupid person in charge in my memory, if ever.
gimmethesimplelife
9-25-17, 7:19pm
I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that our country is being led by a man who has no idea what he's doing and shoots off his mouth (or Tweets) inappropriately and non-stop, and who doesn't appear to pay the least attention to the qualified adults who have been drafted to try to talk him down--that makes me worried, if not terrified. We haven't had such an unqualified, reckless, undisciplined, and I believe stupid person in charge in my memory, if ever.I could not agree with you more, Jane, and I am worried and from time to time bordering on terrified over this.....I am hoping of course that cooler heads prevail but I also understand that we have hotheads as "leaders" on both sides of this equation. How this is going to end or resolve is anyone's guess at this point.......though I do find it ironic in case of the worst case scenario all that prepping I've done to be able to run with two bags packed will not matter one iota...........Rob
What’s your worst-case scenario, Rob?
I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that our country is being led by a man who has no idea what he's doing and shoots off his mouth (or Tweets) inappropriately and non-stop, and who doesn't appear to pay the least attention to the qualified adults who have been drafted to try to talk him down--that makes me worried, if not terrified. We haven't had such an unqualified, reckless, undisciplined, and I believe stupid person in charge in my memory, if ever.
I don't understand how so many people can feel this way, but no one is pushing to oust him. Is it only because he hasn't done anything "illegal"........even though he's trying hard to ruin us?
gimmethesimplelife
9-25-17, 8:43pm
What’s your worst-case scenario, Rob?Nuclear annihilation. If not for the entire planet, at least parts of it - and then if it's not the entire planet, there is the fallout factor to worry about. Not a pleasant thing to think of......but I can see the potential here given the hothead we have as chief executive and given the hothead "leading" North Korea. Rob
Nuclear annihilation. If not for the entire planet, at least parts of it - and then if it's not the entire planet, there is the fallout factor to worry about. Not a pleasant thing to think of......but I can see the potential here given the hothead we have as chief executive and given the hothead "leading" North Korea. Rob
How many nuclear weapons and delivery devices do you think the North Koreans have?
Or are you expecting the Chinese to launch everything?
I don't understand how so many people can feel this way, but no one is pushing to oust him. Is it only because he hasn't done anything "illegal"........even though he's trying hard to ruin us?
Something about "the rule of law" I think. You can't "oust" a sitting President legally without some serious process involved.
I don't understand how so many people can feel this way, but no one is pushing to oust him. Is it only because he hasn't done anything "illegal"........even though he's trying hard to ruin us?
"Justice, though moving slowly, seldom fails to overtake the wicked"~Horace, Odes, (23 BC)
Bob Mueller and his team will sink this vessel, I'm sure of it. Unless, of course, Congress somehow stops them.
"Justice, though moving slowly, seldom fails to overtake the wicked"~Horace, Odes, (23 BC)
Bob Mueller and his team will sink this vessel, I'm sure of it. Unless, of course, Congress somehow stops them.
ὀψε θɛῷν ἀλέουσίμύλοί, ἀλέουσί δε λɛρṯά - Sextus Empiricus
Which I render as "The mills of the gods are slow, but grind finely."
Here's to some tasty fine-grain flour for our baking needs!
gimmethesimplelife
9-25-17, 9:56pm
"Justice, though moving slowly, seldom fails to overtake the wicked"~Horace, Odes, (23 BC)
Bob Mueller and his team will sink this vessel, I'm sure of it. Unless, of course, Congress somehow stops them.Jane, you truly have faith that they will sink this vessel? I respect your opinion so I'm going to try to have some faith. At this point it's beyond wearing an outfit and waving a flag for me - with the amplification of tensions with North Korea......I see the vessel being sunk as a potential gift to the continuance of the human race. Much more important than my put together outfit for an impeachment. Rob
Jane, you truly have faith that they will sink this vessel? I respect your opinion so I'm going to try to have some faith. At this point it's beyond wearing an outfit and waving a flag for me - with the amplification of tensions with North Korea......I see the vessel being sunk as a potential gift to the continuance of the human race. Much more important than my put together outfit for an impeachment. Rob
Like you I wish this would be over sooner rather than later so that he will stop destroying this country one national park or vulnerable population at a time. But just as mother nature doesn't ask me what weather I'd like each morning, Mueller doesn't operate on anyone's timeline but his own. If there's a there there, which I am pretty convinced there is, he will present it when it is fully developed and ready to be presented. On a side note, after this weekend I'm thinking about buying a Steelers jersey for my impeachment party. I wonder if I can pick my player name and number. If I can I'll pick FU 45.
BikingLady
9-26-17, 5:21am
Well at 4am I scanned the headlines and no Boom last night, I walked the dogs/ That is what is has come to for me.
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 7:37am
Well at 4am I scanned the headlines and no Boom last night, I walked the dogs/ That is what is has come to for me.It's 4:34 AM right now and I've just gotten up and started coffee for my SO and am about to scan the headlines online.....and no boom overnight, and my cats are well and right now things are quiet and calm. I am grateful for this moment in time regardless of what the rest of the day holds.......crossing my fingers and hoping for the best with whatever happens between Trump and North Korea. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-26-17, 7:38am
Like you I wish this would be over sooner rather than later so that he will stop destroying this country one national park or vulnerable population at a time. But just as mother nature doesn't ask me what weather I'd like each morning, Mueller doesn't operate on anyone's timeline but his own. If there's a there there, which I am pretty convinced there is, he will present it when it is fully developed and ready to be presented. On a side note, after this weekend I'm thinking about buying a Steelers jersey for my impeachment party. I wonder if I can pick my player name and number. If I can I'll pick FU 45.Jerseys really are not my style but I have to say I like your idea anyway LOL LOL LOL. Rob
I would like to get a "Dump Trump" bumper sticker, but I'm afraid my car would be vandalized. haha
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 8:47am
I learned a little bit about North Korea from this Tedtalk video by Suki Kim. Whatever the range of emotions are toward our current President, it doesn't change the situation that exists within that country. Perhaps North Korea has a lesson for the world. Perhaps we shouldn't make gods of our elected officials because they are flawed humans as all of us are.
https://youtu.be/6weGCM3sWKc
Perhaps we shouldn't make gods of our elected officials because they are flawed humans as all of us are.
https://youtu.be/6weGCM3sWKc
Or demons.
North Korea has been "declaring war" on every alternate Tuesday since the early fifties. When your people are starving while your neighbors prosper, that's what you do to keep the dynasty going. You need a Great Satan to "protect" your subjects from. Trump works out pretty well for Kim in that respect. Pretty much every US president has said an attack would result in annihilation for the attacker. Trump just did that in cruder terms than most.
Trump also makes a pretty good Great Satan for the American left. They've been in the Great Satan business at least since Reagan. But suppose the GOP dumps Trump in the 2020 primary season in favor or a more traditional, more sane, more Republican candidate? What will the breathless media, the street crusaders and the Hollywood award shows have to work with? Go full Bernie on entitlements? Revive a neo-Clintonian meretricious meritocracy claim? Double down on identity politics?
I think if the GOP is smart, they'll run the dullest no-drama candidate they can find. A modern Coolidge, if they're lucky enough to find one. After the Obama and Trump personality cults, I think Americans will be ready to be bored by politics.
I don't think there are many "more sane, more Republican" candidates left--or I might vote for one of them. If there were any, the Tea Party scuttled them.
All politics are "identity politics"--but if you're a one percenter, and your identity is "rich white men," you can buy whole swaths of the government, as have the Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson. And who can forget that old obstructionist, Grover Norquist. A pox on all of them.
I don't think there are many "more sane, more Republican" candidates left--or I might vote for one of them. If there were any, the Tea Party scuttled them.
All politics are "identity politics"--but if you're a one percenter, and your identity is "rich white men," you can buy whole swaths of the government, as have the Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson. And who can forget that old obstructionist, Grover Norquist. A pox on all of them.
That's just the response I would hope for from the Democrats. Put a dull GOP midwestern governor on a debate stage with say, Kamela Harris. Have her rant away about class warfare, race divisions, plutocratic conspiracies and the rest of the playbook in the most colorful terms she can muster. Yield some time to her if the rules allow.
I think by 2020 Americans will be so sick of apocalyptic politics where every word and gesture is fraught with moral panic that they will opt for the most boring candidate available.
I think by 2020 Americans will be so sick of apocalyptic politics where every word and gesture is fraught with moral panic that they will opt for the most boring candidate available.That's the winning formula behind the Republican's gains in the state and local levels over these past 8 or so years. The more breathlessly irritating the Democrats become, the better.
iris lilies
9-26-17, 11:12am
That's just the response I would hope for from the Democrats. Put a dull GOP midwestern governor on a debate stage with say, Kamela Harris. Have her rant away about class warfare, race divisions, plutocratic conspiracies and the rest of the playbook in the most colorful terms she can muster. Yield some time to her if the rules allow.
I think by 2020 Americans will be so sick of apocalyptic politics where every word and gesture is fraught with moral panic that they will opt for the most boring candidate available.
Maybe, but there are a fair number (even represented here) who seem to thrive on getting genned up with outrage. Let's hope you are right that the silent majority just wants peace and quiet and grownups in charge.
Maybe, but there are a fair number (even represented here) who seem to thrive on getting genned up with outrage. Let's hope you are right that the silent majority just wants peace and quiet and grownups in charge.
There's a place for outrage. Without it, little change happens.
Someone has to stand for the environment, for peace, for government by the people and for the people, and yes--for justice.
ToomuchStuff
9-26-17, 1:51pm
Heck, just fabricate a shoot-down in international airspace, problem solved.
I would prefer if we just have fighters in international airspace. Fewer people at risk (hopefully they could eject in time), and then gives us an opportunity to see how China would react (believe they wouldn't follow Korea's "logic" of we have declared war) and leave NK on its own.
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 2:27pm
Well, if we had just listened to Patton when we had all our assets in place , there would be no Russian election interference, no North Korea and Reagan would never had to utter the words, "tear down this wall." You see what political correctness will lead to.
Well, if we had just listened to Patton when we had all our assets in place , there would be no Russian election interference, no North Korea and Reagan would never had to utter the words, "tear down this wall." You see what political correctness will lead to.
Or MacArthur:
"Of all the campaigns of my life, 20 major ones to be exact, [Korea was] the one I felt most sure of was the one I was deprived of waging. I could have won the war in Korea in a maximum of 10 days.... I would have dropped between 30 and 50 atomic bombs on his air bases and other depots strung across the neck of Manchuria.... It was my plan as our amphibious forces moved south to spread behind us—from the Sea of Japan to the Yellow Sea—a belt of radioactive cobalt. It could have been spread from wagons, carts, trucks and planes.... For at least 60 years there could have been no land invasion of Korea from the north. The enemy could not have marched across that radiated belt."
flowerseverywhere
9-26-17, 4:23pm
That's the winning formula behind the Republican's gains in the state and local levels over these past 8 or so years. The more breathlessly irritating the Democrats become, the better.
I disagree, Trump was elected because of his hateful rhetoric towards Muslims and other brown and black skinned people . He worked on creating fear, hate and distrust of Muslims, Mexicans and even blacks who were born here. Take a look at his rallies. White scared people.
I disagree, Trump was elected because of his hateful rhetoric towards Muslims and other brown and black skinned people . He worked on creating fear, hate and distrust of Muslims, Mexicans and even blacks who were born here. Take a look at his rallies. White scared people.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/
I disagree, Trump was elected because of his hateful rhetoric towards Muslims and other brown and black skinned people . He worked on creating fear, hate and distrust of Muslims, Mexicans and even blacks who were born here. Take a look at his rallies. White scared people.
And then there's the misogyny factor.
And then there's the misogyny factor.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/
Williamsmith
9-26-17, 4:41pm
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/
With all due respect to Gimmie and his zip code, I was uniquely positioned in my zip code to be able to monitor the direction of the race in the critical Rust Belt. Trump was simply a tool used by a good portion of the electorate to humiliate and embarrass the establishment both Republican and Democrat. Clinton was way too underwhelming a presence to overcome this especially after she alienated large swaths of people in and around the Rust Belt zip codes.
I dont think either party has come to Jesus in that regard yet and may make the same mistakes next election. Of the three divisions mentioned I think education ...the lack of access to good education....is most responsible for the State of the Union.
I disagree, Trump was elected because of his hateful rhetoric towards Muslims and other brown and black skinned people . He worked on creating fear, hate and distrust of Muslims, Mexicans and even blacks who were born here. Take a look at his rallies. White scared people.
Alan wasn't talking about Trump. He was talking about the thousands of offices lost by Democrats over the last decade or so. Surely that remarkable decline is attributable to more than just "scared white people".
With all due respect to Gimmie and his zip code, I was uniquely positioned in my zip code to be able to monitor the direction of the race in the critical Rust Belt. Trump was simply a tool used by a good portion of the electorate to humiliate and embarrass the establishment both Republican and Democrat. Clinton was way too underwhelming a presence to overcome this especially after she alienated large swaths of people in and around the Rust Belt zip codes.
I dont think either party has come to Jesus in that regard yet and may make the same mistakes next election. Of the three divisions mentioned I think education ...the lack of access to good education....is most responsible for the State of the Union.
I think you're right. The people who need to believe that Trump tapped into some vast reservoir of racism to win seem to me blinded by their own sense of moral and epistemic superiority. While there may have been an element of that, I think that far more important was the resentment of the (mostly white) political establishment. It was Mrs. Clinton's misfortune to embody that group in all its condescending glory.
Or MacArthur:
"Of all the campaigns of my life, 20 major ones to be exact, [Korea was] the one I felt most sure of was the one I was deprived of waging. I could have won the war in Korea in a maximum of 10 days.... I would have dropped between 30 and 50 atomic bombs on his air bases and other depots strung across the neck of Manchuria.... It was my plan as our amphibious forces moved south to spread behind us—from the Sea of Japan to the Yellow Sea—a belt of radioactive cobalt. It could have been spread from wagons, carts, trucks and planes.... For at least 60 years there could have been no land invasion of Korea from the north. The enemy could not have marched across that radiated belt."
Don't tell Trump about this.
flowerseverywhere
9-26-17, 5:28pm
Alan wasn't talking about Trump. He was talking about the thousands of offices lost by Democrats over the last decade or so. Surely that remarkable decline is attributable to more than just "scared white people".
agree, but Trump vocalized a lot of the darkening of America that makes people fearful. Many in the middle of the country felt left behind and not represented, and race was one of the issues. Also, same sex marriage and other liberal issues have people seeing the safety of Mayberry RFD slip away. Plus loss of good union jobs you could get with a high school education, retire with good benefits and a pension. Certainly disquieting.
All those red hats symbolize to me "make America white again".
agree, but Trump vocalized a lot of the darkening of America that makes people fearful.
My thought is that America was already deeply deeply fractured, which leaves the classic opening for this sort of populist to sweep in. (See the "Know Nothing" movement).
It's happened before, it'll surely happen again.
All those red hats symbolize to me "make America white again".
That's the problem with so much of society being fixated with race and gender, it's hard to see anything else. A wise man once tried to convince us that content of character was a better judge of a person. Democrats didn't listen then either.
flowerseverywhere
9-26-17, 6:57pm
That's the problem with so much of society being fixated with race and gender, it's hard to see anything else. A wise man once tried to convince us that content of character was a better judge of a person. Democrats didn't listen then either.
Do you live in a racially mixed neighborhood? Do you have friends into your home of other races?
show me a Trump rally with a normal mix of dark faces in the crowd and I'll believe it is not about race And gender is a big factor. Why so much focus on defunding planned parenthood non abortion services. Women would not go there if they could obtain mammograms, Pap smears, contraception and pre natal care elsewhere. Maybe they should hold their legs together tighter.
Rich white men making rich white men richer. Did you ever read the comments made about Barrack and Michele when they were in the White House? Monkey? Ape in high heels? And so on. His biggest crime was being sitting at the table, not knowing his place and serving the white men in charge. And there was a lot I did not like he did. But at least he was not an embarrassment with his ridiculous tweeting.
And I am not a democrat. I voted for the Bushes. I am registered as an independent. But this Trump "build that wall" "ban Syrian refugees" "ban Muslims" "Mexico is sending it's rapists" hate mongering has been way too much for me. Of course we need immigration reform. Of course we need to make sure we deal with radicals. I do not dispute that. It's the name calling racist bully whom the republicans will not stand up to. You may not be a racist or sexist but I have no doubt Trump and some of the people he surrounds himself with are.
Do you live in a racially mixed neighborhood? Do you have friends into your home of other races?
Yes, and if you insist on me establishing my bona fides, probably 25% of my extended family over the past 20 years are bi-racial. I won't tolerate racism and resent being labeled as one by people who think they know me based upon my politics. There's more to all of us than someone's preferred narrative.
Teacher Terry
9-26-17, 8:10pm
Flowers: I totally agree with you. I think many people wouldn't vote for a woman. Alan, not everyone that voted for Trump are racist but I would venture to guess that a fair number are. I think there are many reasons people voted for him. I wonder how many are regretting that vote? I know a few smart people that did and I just can't believe it but don't discuss with them since not worth hurting a great friendship.
flowerseverywhere
9-26-17, 9:21pm
Yes, and if you insist on me establishing my bona fides, probably 25% of my extended family over the past 20 years are bi-racial. I won't tolerate racism and resent being labeled as one by people who think they know me based upon my politics. There's more to all of us than someone's preferred narrative.
i just cannot see how the words coming out of Trumps mouth and through twitter are not disturbing to you if you don't tolerate racism. Not immediately distancing himself from David Duke and the Charlotte Nazi flag wavers chanting "blood and soil". It made my blood run cold. Your family is incredibly lucky if they have not been victims of discrimination. Bannon as his right hand man? Calling Mexicans rapists? Calling the judge that overturned the travel ban unqualified because he was Mexican. Calling it a "Muslim ban" all through the campaign? Is this not disturbing at all? I truly want to understand how someone can support Trump and not be offended by all of this. Please explain what I am missing because I truly want to understand.
I truly want to understand how someone can support Trump and not be offended by all of this. Please explain what I am missing because I truly want to understand.
Not every Republican or Conservative or Libertarian voter, or voters who support rationality and understand the concept of 'cause and effect' are Trump supporters. Placing people in buckets based upon criteria you create for them doesn't give you a true picture. It's frustrating to so many of us to be unable to have an honest dialog with others without them bringing out the buckets of racism, sexism, homophobia or whatever perceived evil they use to categorize people who don't think exactly as they do.
It's frustrating to so many of us to be unable to have an honest dialog with others without them bringing out the buckets of racism, sexism, homophobia or whatever perceived evil they use to categorize people who don't think exactly as they do.
+100
And it is frustrating to be judged constantly by one's skin color, one's age, one's religion, one's gender, where one was born, and how much money one has in the bank. And lately, that seems endemic in our discussions. The election seems to have led to a lot of this binary thinking. Thus, if one did not vote for Hillary, one was sexist. If one did vote for Trump, one was racist. If one voted for Jill Stein, like I did, one was a naïve fool and a spoiler.
Your family is incredibly lucky if they have not been victims of discrimination. They never will if I have any say in the matter. Where I think you and I might differ on the subject is my determination that they also not be subjected to the victim status so many automatically place on people of color and it's resultant soft bigotry of low expectations.
Do you live in a racially mixed neighborhood? Do you have friends into your home of other races?
Why do you need details about Alan's personal situation to evaluate his arguments? Can't they stand or fall on their own without knowing who he invites to his barbeques?
ToomuchStuff
9-27-17, 9:34am
Why do you need details about Alan's personal situation to evaluate his arguments? Can't they stand or fall on their own without knowing who he invites to his barbeques?
It helps to put him in boxes/categories.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhCWw0E_mVY
>8)
They never will if I have any say in the matter. Where I think you and I might differ on the subject is my determination that they also not be subjected to the victim status so many automatically place on people of color and it's resultant soft bigotry of low expectations.
To work hard for change when you see injustice is the farthest thing from victimhood, IMO.
The thing about the conservative concept of minority 'victim status' is that it seems, at least to me, to imply that if people who have been discriminated against or otherwise treated poorly or harmfully by white people would just stop complaining things would be so much better for them. But it seems to completely ignore that the actual problem is the behavior of asshole racists. Kind of in the same manner as saying 'if she hadn't dressed like such a slut maybe she wouldn't have gotten raped."
The thing about the conservative concept of minority 'victim status' is that it seems, at least to me, to imply that if people who have been discriminated against or otherwise treated poorly or harmfully by white people would just stop complaining things would be so much better for them. But it seems to completely ignore that the actual problem is the behavior of asshole racists. Kind of in the same manner as saying 'if she hadn't dressed like such a slut maybe she wouldn't have gotten raped."
I know, treating people as human beings rather than as a race or gender or preference is a terrible waste of our moral outrage.
I know, treating people as human beings rather than as a race or gender or preference is a terrible waste of our moral outrage.
And calling people out as racists or sexists or homophobes is so rude and uncivilized.
The thing about the conservative concept of minority 'victim status' is that it seems, at least to me, to imply that if people who have been discriminated against or otherwise treated poorly or harmfully by white people would just stop complaining things would be so much better for them. But it seems to completely ignore that the actual problem is the behavior of asshole racists. Kind of in the same manner as saying 'if she hadn't dressed like such a slut maybe she wouldn't have gotten raped."
Yeah--the time honored "Suck it up" response. It pairs well with the "I've got mine."
LOL, you guys illustrate my overall points so much better than I can myself. :thankyou:
I agree with the guy who said that you can't be happy if your primary identity is that of a victim, even if you are one. I would certainly agree with Alan that is something you'd want to protect people you care about from.
There are people whose claims of victim status range from the obvious to the laughably tenuous. Each of us has to decide the degree to which we will honor them.
Each of us harbors varying degrees and species of prejudice. Outside of very egregious situations, I suspect few of us possess the moral authority to "call them out" in others.
I guess it's not clear to me how my having empathy for someone who has been wronged means that I think less of them in any way.
I guess it's not clear to me how my having empathy for someone who has been wronged means that I think less of them in any way.
Nor having respect for them for speaking out and trying to change the situation. It's the only way we've ever advanced as a country--or we'd still be living in a monarchy. Or skulking around a savanna somewhere, for that matter.
Nor having respect for them for speaking out and trying to change the situation. It's the only way we've ever advanced as a country--or we'd still be living in a monarchy. Or skulking around a savanna somewhere, for that matter.
So you're saying i shouldnt just go 'wow! Look at how much they accomplished despite the adversity they faced!' And then do mothing to try to end the adverdiy.
/snark
Just heard from DD that one of her military in-laws stationed in Okinawa says the whole island is being evacuated. Hope it doesn't portend bad things.
Secretary Mattis was supposed to attend a dinner I was at last Saturday, but had to send his regrets because “a situation in NE Asia has urgently required his absence.” This message was delivered by Someone Important, who added “I can’t tell you any details, but let’s just say Rocket Man better watch out...”. The room, mostly full of US Intelligence folks and Special Operations folks, chuckled evilly.... I tried to hide under the table at that point.
JaneV2.0
10-26-17, 11:28am
Seattle keeps being mentioned as a target. i don't particularly want to die in service to Trump's massive ego, or his need to divert attention.
Seattle keeps being mentioned as a target. i don't particularly want to die in service to Trump's massive ego, or his need to divert attention.
So say we all! Luckily (?) today I’m walking distance from Cheyenne Mountain/NORAD...
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