View Full Version : "Drag Queen Story Time"at the public library
iris lilies
9-29-17, 9:05pm
I kid you not, it is a real thing.
I like a good drag show and Queens as much as anyone, and I even enjoy a BAD drag show, but really, this just seems too try hard.
Small children in St. Louis certainly got their dose of Diversity today.
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1954&stc=1
ToomuchStuff
9-30-17, 12:42am
I expect those that walked there locally, did. Then parents of those that didn't want to see it, would take their children and leave.
Dressing up drag is a different variant on Halloween, but times change I guess.
i suppose that once you boil it all down it's just someone in a crazy costume, who knows how to engage an audience, reading books to kids. It's probably not necessary to include a history lesson about Stonewall. All a parent has to do is explain that the guy thinks it's fun to dress up in women's clothing and act silly.
IrisLilies.......What was the library's intent here? Is there someone on staff who is a drag queen? Not sure why they would do this........but it seems like anything and everything can and does go on here in the good ol' U.S. of A. :(
We have them here, and people love it. Just a fun way to read books. I had a summer volunteer whl was a storyteller who wore different hats and really engaged the kids. If you don't like it then don't take your kids, like most things
I don't see it as any different than showing Some Like it Hot or Bosom Buddies. Maybe that kind of thing is considered scandalous somewhere.
I tried to schedule myself around Story Hour, personally. Even a cleverly styled drag queen wouldn't have made it tolerable for me.
Maybe I don't understand this post. Is this just a kids' story time? Maybe I've watched too many Law and Orders to appreciate it. :~)
iris lilies
9-30-17, 6:06pm
I don't see it as any different than showing Some Like it Hot or Bosom Buddies. Maybe that kind of thing is considered scandalous somewhere.
I tried to schedule myself around Story Hour, personally. Even a cleverly styled drag queen wouldn't have made it tolerable for me.
Would you show either of those films to 4 year olds as a child centered program?
This is confusing to me. Female sterotypes of dressing in heels, sparkly dress and false whatevers in order to create and enhance a traditional female form, and parading around in such, brings distain from the left when it takes place at a beauty pageant. Not a good image for our young girls to emulate.
But dressing up in heels, sparkly dress and false whatevers in order to mimic and enhance a traditional female form is A-ok for story time readers who lead a program for those same young girls.
The illogic is staggering.
iris lilies
9-30-17, 6:56pm
We have them here, and people love it. Just a fun way to read books. I had a summer volunteer whl was a storyteller who wore different hats and really engaged the kids. If you don't like it then don't take your kids, like most things
A reader who employs different--hats? That's your analogy to drag queens? Ok, not in the same ball park although looks like the same ball park, but, OK.
I think a program for teens and adults about drag makeup or full on drag regalia might be fun. But what four year olds are supposed to take away from this program, I just do not know.
Would you show either of those films to 4 year olds as a child centered program?
This is confusing to me. Female sterotypes of dressing in heels, sparkly dress and false whatevers in order to create and enhance a traditional female form, and parading around in such, brings distain from the left when it takes place at a beauty pageant. Not a good image for our young girls to emulate.
But dressing up in heels, sparkly dress and false whatevers in order to mimic and enhance a traditional female form is A-ok for story time readers who lead a program for those same young girls.
The illogic is staggering.
Yeah--it's probably more about the story teller than the audience. I hope it's a mesmerizing tale.
ETA: Maybe it will be somethng like Mrs. Doubtfire--no particular threat to feminist sensibilities...
Ultralight
10-2-17, 7:39am
I don't see it as any different than showing Some Like it Hot or Bosom Buddies. Maybe that kind of thing is considered scandalous somewhere.
I tried to schedule myself around Story Hour, personally. Even a cleverly styled drag queen wouldn't have made it tolerable for me.
I watched reruns of Bosom Buddies with my mom when I was a little kid. I thought that show was so funny!
Ultralight
10-2-17, 7:44am
This show destroyed young minds!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UI_JwF3cnA
This show destroyed young minds!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UI_JwF3cnA
It was certainly a departure from the gritty realism of The Facts of Life.
Would you show either of those films to 4 year olds as a child centered program?
This is confusing to me. Female sterotypes of dressing in heels, sparkly dress and false whatevers in order to create and enhance a traditional female form, and parading around in such, brings distain from the left when it takes place at a beauty pageant. Not a good image for our young girls to emulate.
But dressing up in heels, sparkly dress and false whatevers in order to mimic and enhance a traditional female form is A-ok for story time readers who lead a program for those same young girls.
The illogic is staggering.
The difference is that one is done seriously and one is done with irony and caricature in mind. Drag queens don't generally strive to actually be passable as women. In fact it's fairly common for them to have full beards.
iris lilies
10-2-17, 10:14am
The difference is that one is done seriously and one is done with irony and caricature in mind. Drag queens don't generally strive to actually be passable as women. In fact it's fairly common for them to have full beards.
Will 4 year olds gets the " irony?" I think they will see big ladies in sparkly dresses and will sense that the adults around them are amused but they will not understand why. This program is inappropriate.
But that is interesting about the beards. We have very traditional drag queen performers here in Hicksville, FlyOverland. They have no beards.
When I drill down to my feelings about this, maybe the problem is that I am just jealous! Jealous of the four-year-old children!I would like drag queens to give me a program!
The ironic feminist part of drag queenery is, as someone famous once said of women "We are all female impersonators."
Will 4 year olds gets the " irony?" I think they will see big ladies in sparkly dresses and will sense that the adults around them are amused but they will not understand why. This program is inappropriate.
But that is interesting about the beards. We have very traditional drag queen performers here in Hicksville, FlyOverland. They have no beards.
Yes. At least on a level appropriate for a 4 year old. They will likely think it's a guy dressed up in a costume. And if they don't figure it out than maybe the adult should point it out to them so they can be in on the joke.
When I drill down to my feelings about this, maybe the problem is that I am just jealous! Jealous of the four-year-old children!I would like drag queens to give me a program!
There's a solution to that!
https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=Drag+Shows&find_loc=Saint+Louis%2C+MO
How fortunate we are to have such professionals to supervise the shaping of young minds.
Just this morning, I was reading of that courageous elementary school librarian who rejected the First Lady's foul donation of Doctor Seuss books, instructing her that "Doctor Seuss's illustrations are steeped in racist propaganda, caricatures and harmful stereotypes". She also gave her a stern talking-to about Betsy DeVos. Sure, the suits in the School Board counseled her for exceeding her authority and violating some ridiculous "policy against using public resources for political purposes", but she had to protect innocent children from that rhyming filth!
Ultralight
10-2-17, 11:50am
As long as the reader is not wearing anything revealing or behaving in risque ways, then who cares?
When I was a kid I liked Culture Club, Alice Cooper, David Bowie, Queen, and other gender-bending musicians. Never bothered me.
If I was a parent and the book the drag queen was reading looked like a good book, like the Golden Compass or some such, then I'd take the kid to hear the reading.
And I would say: "In America we're quite free. So some people are drag queens and some people are squares and some are magicians and some are mechanics."
Ultralight
10-2-17, 11:51am
It was certainly a departure from the gritty realism of The Facts of Life.
I LOLed!
iris lilies
10-2-17, 11:55am
How fortunate we are to have such professionals to supervise the shaping of young minds.
Just this morning, I was reading of that courageous elementary school librarian who rejected the First Lady's foul donation of Doctor Seuss books, instructing her that "Doctor Seuss's illustrations are steeped in racist propaganda, caricatures and harmful stereotypes". She also gave her a stern talking-to about Betsy DeVos. Sure, the suits in the School Board counseled her for exceeding her authority and violating some ridiculous "policy against using public resources for political purposes", but she had to protect innocent children from that rhyming filth!
yes, this was another eye rolling incident.
We can take comfort in the fact that this library employee was actually "counseled" as to her inappropriate response. That would not always happen, depending on the location, the management, the Library Board.
iris lilies
10-2-17, 11:57am
What is the deal with Peter Scolari always wearing short shorts in Bosem Buddies?In the trailer he appears at least 6 times in these shorts in various scenes.
This tv show must have played during a time when I didnt watch tv because I have never seen one episode, although I know about it.
Ultralight
10-2-17, 11:58am
What is the deal with Peter Scolari always wearing short shorts in Bosem Buddies?In the trailer he appears at least 6 times in these shorts in various scenes.
This tv show must have played during a time when I didnt watch tv because I have never seen one episode, although I know about it.
Circa 1982.
iris lilies
10-2-17, 12:02pm
Circa 1982.
Oh yeah, I had no tv then.
yes, this was another eye rolling incident.
We can take comfort in the fact that this library employee was actually "counseled" as to her inappropriate response. That would not always happen, depending on the location, the management, the Library Board.
Librarians like this make me value my Amazon account all the more. I don't need anyone explaining to my kid about how the Boxcar Children perpetuate the class structure or where Amelia Bedelia falls in the autism spectrum or whose prairie they built the Little House on. And if she wants to take There's a Wocket in My Pocket at face value, I'm just the sort of politically irresponsible parent who's fine with it.
How fortunate we are to have such professionals to supervise the shaping of young minds.
Just this morning, I was reading of that courageous elementary school librarian who rejected the First Lady's foul donation of Doctor Seuss books, instructing her that "Doctor Seuss's illustrations are steeped in racist propaganda, caricatures and harmful stereotypes". She also gave her a stern talking-to about Betsy DeVos. Sure, the suits in the School Board counseled her for exceeding her authority and violating some ridiculous "policy against using public resources for political purposes", but she had to protect innocent children from that rhyming filth!
The local spin is not that the Dr. Seuss books were bad, but that they were refused because a poorer district more in need of books should have received them.
The local spin is not that the Dr. Seuss books were bad, but that they were refused because a poorer district more in need of books should have received them.
She did imply that other districts would be better served by the gift, but local spin aside, she made a pretty good SJW case that Dr. Seuss books were indeed bad.
http://www.hbook.com/2017/09/blogs/family-reading/dear-mrs-trump/#_
"So, my school doesn’t have a NEED for these books. And then there’s the matter of the books themselves. You may not be aware of this, but Dr. Seuss is a bit of a cliché, a tired and worn ambassador for children’s literature. As First Lady of the United States, you have an incredible platform with world-class resources at your fingertips. Just down the street you have access to a phenomenal children’s librarian: Dr. Carla Hayden (http://www.hbook.com/2017/01/featured/editorial-shes-with-us/), the current Librarian of Congress. I have no doubt Dr. Hayden would have given you some stellar recommendations.
Another fact that many people are unaware of is that Dr. Seuss’s illustrations are steeped in racist propaganda, caricatures, and harmful stereotypes. Open one of his books (If I Ran a Zoo or And to Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street, for example), and you’ll see the racist mockery in his art. Grace Hwang Lynch’s School Library Journal article, “Is the Cat in the Hat Racist? Read Across America Shifts Away from Dr. Seuss and Toward Diverse Books (http://www.slj.com/2017/09/industry-news/cat-hat-racist-read-across-america-shifts-away-dr-seuss-toward-diverse-books/),” reports on Katie Ishizuka’s work analyzing the minstrel characteristics and trope nature of Seuss’s characters. Scholar Philip Nel (http://www.hbook.com/2017/05/choosing-books/horn-book-magazine/laughter-and-resistance-humor-as-a-weapon-in-the-age-of-trump/)’s new book, Was the Cat in the Hat Black? The Hidden Racism of Children’s Literature, and the Need for Diverse Books, further explores and shines a spotlight on the systemic racism and oppression in education and literature.
I am honored that you recognized my students and our school. I can think of no better gift for children than books; it was a wonderful gesture, if one that could have been better thought out. Books can be a powerful way to learn about and experience the world around us; they help build empathy and understanding. In return, I’m attaching a list of ten books (it’s the librarian in me) that I hope will offer you a window into the lives of the many children affected by the policies of your husband’s administration. (http://www.hbook.com/2017/09/blogs/family-reading/dear-mrs-trump-booklist/) You and your husband have a direct impact on these children’s lives. Please make time to learn about and value them. I hope you share these books with your family and with kids around the country. And I encourage you to reach out to your local librarian for more recommendations."
iris lilies
10-2-17, 6:19pm
Yes. At least on a level appropriate for a 4 year old. They will likely think it's a guy dressed up in a costume. And if they don't figure it out than maybe the adult should point it out to them so they can be in on the joke.
There's a solution to that!
https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=Drag+Shows&find_loc=Saint+Louis%2C+MO
oh I know,
I keep saying that a group p of us need to see the show at .the Grey Fox, it is supposed to be the best.
oh I know,
I keep saying that a group p of us need to see the show at .the Grey Fox, it is supposed to be the best.
I miss Finocchio's in SF.
iris lilies
10-2-17, 6:57pm
The local spin is not that the Dr. Seuss books were bad, but that they were refused because a poorer district more in need of books should have received them.
That " poorer district" comment included a bitch slap to Betsy DeVos.
I am fairly confident none of my former employees would be so stupid as to take the action this librarian took. It was common for my library system to get unsolicited gifts of books and when they arrived, we put them where they needed to go. Often that was not in the collections. We occasionally did receive physical volumes from prominent politicians and we thanked them ( but didnt necessarily add these items to the collections.) . We never never never considered it our job to send shaming/ lecturing public letters to those who made donations to us.
Williamsmith
10-2-17, 8:47pm
So the librarian didn’t want these “tired, worn out, racist”books for her wealthy school but suggested a poor district might have been a better choice.....hmmm.
iris lilies
10-2-17, 9:05pm
So the librarian didn’t want these “tired, worn out, racist”books for her wealthy school but suggested a poor district might have been a better choice.....hmmm.
yes, exactly.
Poor kids can get crap and it is ok because they are poor kids, so she thought. Alrighty then.
yes, exactly.
Poor kids can get crap and it is ok because they are poor kids, so she thought. Alrighty then.
It's a lot of arguing and posturing on both sides for a set a books I priced out (almost new) at $15 on Ebay.
My university class (which contained Michelle Robinson) elected Theodor Geisel to receive an honorary degree at our graduation ceremony, a few too many years ago. And we all stood and chanted a few lines from "Green Eggs and Ham" at the appropriate point. I've met this fine gentleman in person quite a few times, and dined at his home.
Throwing him under the bus for being a racist/fascist/nazi/label-of-the-day seems absurd, given his efforts to fight *actual* Nazis and Fascists and Japanese Imperialists through his art. For a man born in 1904, he seemed pretty with-it, for a lefty liberal Democrat.
iris lilies
10-2-17, 9:33pm
I think we know very well that if Michelle Robinson Obama had sent the books, no letter would have been generated by the angry librarian.
Williamsmith
10-2-17, 9:33pm
My university class (which contained Michelle Robinson) elected Theodor Geisel to receive an honorary degree at our graduation ceremony, a few too many years ago. And we all stood and chanted a few lines from "Green Eggs and Ham" at the appropriate point. I've met this fine gentleman in person quite a few times, and dined at his home.
Throwing him under the bus for being a racist/fascist/nazi/label-of-the-day seems absurd, given his efforts to fight *actual* Nazis and Fascists and Japanese Imperialists through his art. For a man born in 1904, he seemed pretty with-it, for a lefty liberal Democrat.
Geez bae, I think the only famous person in this world you haven’t met ........is me! Was Michelle as charming in person as she appeared on tv?
Geez bae, I think the only famous person in this world you haven’t met ........is me! Was Michelle as charming in person as she appeared on tv?
She was a bit mean and nasty to me, but I was running a women's self-defense class in the room at the International Students' Center that was right next to where she was running an activity that in all fairness benefited much from quiet and peace. After an initial couple of discussions, we rejuggled everyone's schedules and all was well.
Her brother Craig was far more outgoing and charming, and interacted more with other students.
I found the personal attacks on Michelle Obama during Obama's terms to be a bit disgusting, she seemed like a reasonably decent sort.
BikingLady
10-3-17, 4:29am
I guess far different reading of stories than when I went in the 60's.
Williamsmith
10-3-17, 4:36am
She was a bit mean and nasty to me, but I was running a women's self-defense class in the room at the International Students' Center that was right next to where she was running an activity that in all fairness benefited much from quiet and peace. After an initial couple of discussions, we rejuggled everyone's schedules and all was well.
Her brother Craig was far more outgoing and charming, and interacted more with other students.
I found the personal attacks on Michelle Obama during Obama's terms to be a bit disgusting, she seemed like a reasonably decent sort.
Reflecting on the culture I grew up in....personal attacks were common and you developed somewhat of a thick skin or you learned to quash occurrences with a physical beat down. The references to ape in heels and monkey face were as you say disgusting but her and her husband Barry were equally as polarizing as our current resident clown. What I wouldn’t do for a boring, hardly visible Gerald Ford type in the White House.
Drag queens at the library sounds interesting for a kid. I was always looking for some free entertainment.
She did imply that other districts would be better served by the gift, but local spin aside, she made a pretty good SJW case that Dr. Seuss books were indeed bad.
http://www.hbook.com/2017/09/blogs/family-reading/dear-mrs-trump/#_
"So, my school doesn’t have a NEED for these books. And then there’s the matter of the books themselves. You may not be aware of this, but Dr. Seuss is a bit of a cliché, a tired and worn ambassador for children’s literature. As First Lady of the United States, you have an incredible platform with world-class resources at your fingertips. Just down the street you have access to a phenomenal children’s librarian: Dr. Carla Hayden (http://www.hbook.com/2017/01/featured/editorial-shes-with-us/), the current Librarian of Congress. I have no doubt Dr. Hayden would have given you some stellar recommendations.
Another fact that many people are unaware of is that Dr. Seuss’s illustrations are steeped in racist propaganda, caricatures, and harmful stereotypes. Open one of his books (If I Ran a Zoo or And to Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street, for example), and you’ll see the racist mockery in his art. Grace Hwang Lynch’s School Library Journal article, “Is the Cat in the Hat Racist? Read Across America Shifts Away from Dr. Seuss and Toward Diverse Books (http://www.slj.com/2017/09/industry-news/cat-hat-racist-read-across-america-shifts-away-dr-seuss-toward-diverse-books/),” reports on Katie Ishizuka’s work analyzing the minstrel characteristics and trope nature of Seuss’s characters. Scholar Philip Nel (http://www.hbook.com/2017/05/choosing-books/horn-book-magazine/laughter-and-resistance-humor-as-a-weapon-in-the-age-of-trump/)’s new book, Was the Cat in the Hat Black? The Hidden Racism of Children’s Literature, and the Need for Diverse Books, further explores and shines a spotlight on the systemic racism and oppression in education and literature.
I am honored that you recognized my students and our school. I can think of no better gift for children than books; it was a wonderful gesture, if one that could have been better thought out. Books can be a powerful way to learn about and experience the world around us; they help build empathy and understanding. In return, I’m attaching a list of ten books (it’s the librarian in me) that I hope will offer you a window into the lives of the many children affected by the policies of your husband’s administration. (http://www.hbook.com/2017/09/blogs/family-reading/dear-mrs-trump-booklist/) You and your husband have a direct impact on these children’s lives. Please make time to learn about and value them. I hope you share these books with your family and with kids around the country. And I encourage you to reach out to your local librarian for more recommendations."
Anyone trying to understand why any good person would vote for Trump needs look no farther than this silly woman. I don't think she's just one tragic case of an unexamined life, she's representative of a larger mindset that wants to set our national agenda.
If Trump is the alternative to this sort of intolerable smugness, condescension and virtue signalling, I could see how people might be tempted to vote for him. Between chaos and this sort of thinking? It's a difficult choice.
Williamsmith
10-3-17, 9:41am
Anyone trying to understand why any good person would vote for Trump needs look no farther than this silly woman. I don't think she's just one tragic case of an unexamined life, she's representative of a larger mindset that wants to set our national agenda.
If Trump is the alternative to this sort of intolerable smugness, condescension and virtue signalling, I could see how people might be tempted to vote for him. Between chaos and this sort of thinking? It's a difficult choice.
LDAHL, you are one very perceptive bystander. She insulted Dr. Seuss. His books made learning to read a possibility for many families who were poorly educated. What dad would not try to read his child....Green Eggs and Ham?
What dad would not try to read his child....Green Eggs and Ham?
My sick, twisted little girl would always shout "Faster!" when I read that to her. It amused her to see me collapse in a heap at the end.
But I'll have my vengeance one day...
One of Dr Seuss's stories was about a pair of pants on the clothesline with nobody inside them. To this day, DD and I recall it with humor as it was one of her favorites as a child. Not sure any kids today, rich or poor would know what a clothesline is though.
iris lilies
11-27-20, 2:17pm
So now, in Australia, in one of those Canadian-like tribunals against thoughtspeak, Someone in Australia in recent months has government action against her for speaking up against drag queen story time on her Facebook page.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8432021/Mother-criticised-event-drag-queens-read-kids-taken-court-discrimination.html
I wonder how real this article is. I know the Dailey Mail is a rag, but…
If it is at all real, I guess I need to strike Australia off my list of of modern freethinking countries, as I did with Canada and their tribunals. Having these tribunals is amazing to me. Free-speech is not very free in these countries.
iris lilies
11-27-20, 2:38pm
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/drag-queen-death-australia-diamond-wilson-gavin-cancel-culture-a9289166.html
This incident is certainly too bad, and is tangentially tied to the protest against drag queen story time, but I’m not gonna take away from it that “conservatives die if they protest drag queens.” Cancel culture seemed to give him grief, however.
Nor will I take away from it the idea that when gay people step outside of their support group and pre-determined ideology, they become unhappy and commit suicide.
I don’t really draw a broader lesson from this young man’s death other than it’s too bad when young people take their lives.
As a child growing up in an alcoholic home, I always found The Cat in the Hat absolutely terrifying.
As a (very) occasional babysitter, I found reading Dr.Seuss an absolute ordeal. I couldn't tell you the plot, if any, of any of his books.
iris lilies
11-27-20, 8:09pm
As a (very) occasional babysitter, I found reading Dr.Seuss an absolute ordeal. I couldn't tell you the plot, if any, of any of his books.
I don’t think there was much of a plot. The characters were bigger than life.
They were designed as easy readers to get children to read themselves. They were very early books of their kind.
As a (very) occasional babysitter, I found reading Dr.Seuss an absolute ordeal.Not me, when my oldest grandson was young I'd lay in bed with him and read his favorite Dr. Seuss stories, How The Grinch Stole Christmas, And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street, One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish or Green Eggs And Ham. Besides having colorful characters for him to enjoy, each story had a particular cadence that, when read properly, put him to sleep in no time at all.
I well remember hurtling through “Brown Bear, Brown Bear What Do You See?” to the final shocking conclusion. Or the exquisite psychosexual tension of “Fun with Dick and Jane”. I’m inclined to think early childhood literature should de-emphasize the literature part in favor of the fun part.
JaneV2.0
11-28-20, 12:19pm
Not me, when my oldest grandson was young I'd lay in bed with him and read his favorite Dr. Seuss stories, How The Grinch Stole Christmas, And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street, One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish or Green Eggs And Ham. Besides having colorful characters for him to enjoy, each story had a particular cadence that, when read properly, put him to sleep in no time at all.
Ah, that's the secret lure of Dr. Seuss! I must not have read them right, because my younger cousins never seemed to fall asleep...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/drag-queen-death-australia-diamond-wilson-gavin-cancel-culture-a9289166.html
This incident is certainly too bad, and is tangentially tied to the protest against drag queen story time, but I’m not gonna take away from it that “conservatives die if they protest drag queens.” Cancel culture seemed to give him grief, however.
Nor will I take away from it the idea that when gay people step outside of their support group and pre-determined ideology, they become unhappy and commit suicide.
I don’t really draw a broader lesson from this young man’s death other than it’s too bad when young people take their lives.
The lesson from that unfortunate death is that internalized homophobia is a killer. (and any young gay man actively lobbying against gay rights and organizing protests for drag queen story hour almost certainly has some major internal conflicts going on). LGBT teenagers are several times more likely to attempt suicide than their straight counterparts. And are more likely to do so with enough conviction to seriously harm themselves.
iris lilies
11-28-20, 1:03pm
The lesson from that unfortunate death is that internalized homophobia is a killer. (and any young gay man actively lobbying against gay rights and organizing protests for drag queen story hour almost certainly has some major internal conflicts going on). LGBT teenagers are several times more likely to attempt suicide than their straight counterparts. And are more likely to do so with enough conviction to seriously harm themselves.
Yes it may be internalized homophobia. It may also just be that the kid thought drag queen story times are stupid with a capital S.
I still do. I’m still shaking my head over it years later. I don’t think they are wrong with a capital W. I don’t think they are sinful with a capital S. I don’t think they are corrupting to today’s youth.
I just think they are stupid and very very try hard. I’ve been trying to wrap my head around it for some years now and I’m not there. I guess I’m just not evolved. It’s funny that when I was looking this up I found a commentary by a Wall Street journal columnist who said, after observing her local drag queen story time, that the adults in the room were so pleased with themselves, they tittered and laughed! Like it was the greatest thing ever.
The four year olds in the room were about as interested in the storyteller as they are in regular ones which means not especially.
I repeat my assertions from a few years ago at the beginning of this thread: three-year-olds and four-year-olds don’t get the joke. These events are elaborate try hard events for smug librarians and even smugger parents to pat themselves on the back. I strongly believe the group of kids who would actually have fun at drag queen lead event would be preteens and up. They would get it.
If he were just protesting drag queen story hour that'd be one thing. But he was also organizing protests against the marriage equality ballot issue. The guy had issues.
I agree with you. Three and four year olds are probably too young to see that there's anything going on beyond story time. It's wasted on them. Unless the drag queen happens to be theatrical enough in a way that works with small kids that she can hold their attention. But yeah, kids a few years older would definitely have more fun with it.
In my experience, IL is right. A lot of these events are more about the adults involved than the children. A story time becomes an opportunity to signal your superior wokeness. A birthday becomes an opportunity to signal your superior economic status. Sporting events become a chance to work through your own thwarted ambitions. I kind of miss the days of free range children entertaining themselves rather than serving as props for their parents’ status theatre.
happystuff
11-28-20, 1:45pm
I agree with you. Three and four year olds are probably too young to see that there's anything going on beyond story time. It's wasted on them. Unless the drag queen happens to be theatrical enough in a way that works with small kids that she can hold their attention. But yeah, kids a few years older would definitely have more fun with it.
I don't believe it to be wasted on any age. While I may not agree with the strict format of "drag queen story time" and would probably rather see this theme included as part and parcel of regular story time, I think the inclusion adds information and a normalcy for young kids to grow up with. My kids learned and heard about adoption from the day they were placed in my arms. It is something normal, not some unknown to be secreted away or ashamed of or anything else negative. It just is. Too often it is not the "differences", themselves, but the unknown about the differences that creates the problems.
iris lilies
11-28-20, 2:05pm
I don't believe it to be wasted on any age. While I may not agree with the strict format of "drag queen story time" and would probably rather see this theme included as part and parcel of regular story time, I think the inclusion adds information and a normalcy for young kids to grow up with. My kids learned and heard about adoption from the day they were placed in my arms. It is something normal, not some unknown to be secreted away or ashamed of or anything else negative. It just is. Too often it is not the "differences", themselves, but the unknown about the differences that creates the problems.
But drag queens are not normalizing anything. They are not real life.
They are by definition high-octane entertainers. Does your every day drag queen dress up in glitter and heels and lashes and make up in order to go to the grocery store, walk your dog, etc.? The trans people in my neighborhood wear an earring and slightly long hair, maybe a girly type blouse At times, but when they’re out there shoveling dirt or riding their bike, they are not all tarted up.
Also there’s a confusing message about gayness. Having been schooled recently that “drag queen does not equal gay does not equal trans” so I wonder, what is the lesson here of normalcy.
happystuff
11-28-20, 2:14pm
But drag queens are not normalizing anything. They are not real life.
They are by definition high-octane entertainers. Does your every day drag queen dress up in glitter and heels and lashes and make up in order to go to the grocery store, walk your dog, etc.? The trans people in my neighborhood wear an earring and slightly long hair, maybe a girly type blouse At times, but when they’re out there shoveling dirt or riding their bike, they are not all tarted up.
Also there’s a confusing message about gayness. Having been schooled recently that “drag queen does not equal gay does not equal trans” so I wonder, what is the lesson here of normalcy.
And this is exactly the point I was making! "drag queen" definition from Oxford Languages = 'a man who dresses up in women's clothes, typically for the purposes of entertainment" - typically does not mean "always". I know individuals who do what used to be called "cross-dressing". (need to educate myself to see if "drag queen" is the new term for this or not - lol). And when I am shoveling or bike riding, I don't get all "tarted up" either. Do you?
I think - for a start - the normalcy here is that differences are normal.
In my experience, IL is right. A lot of these events are more about the adults involved than the children. A story time becomes an opportunity to signal your superior wokeness. A birthday becomes an opportunity to signal your superior economic status. Sporting events become a chance to work through your own thwarted ambitions. I kind of miss the days of free range children entertaining themselves rather than serving as props for their parents’ status theatre.
At worst status theatre of this sort seems pretty harmless. At best when the former kids who were brought to this event realize that they are some form of LGBT, which will happen to roughly 5% of them, perhaps they will remember their parent having brought them to DQ story hour and feel less hesitant about opening up to them and seeking their support.
I miss the days of free range kids also; I was lucky enough to be one.
I sometimes suspect that my mother hoped I'd be taken by a sneaker wave or fall into the Necanicum and drown (OK, probably not :~)), but it was a pleasant childhood, just me and my doberman and a little beach town full of Scotch broom.
At worst status theatre of this sort seems pretty harmless. At best when the former kids who were brought to this event realize that they are some form of LGBT, which will happen to roughly 5% of them, perhaps they will remember their parent having brought them to DQ story hour and feel less hesitant about opening up to them and seeking their support.
Maybe. Or maybe little kids will just treat these performances like most moral improvement projects adults put in their path and forget them after they’ve endured them. Sort of like a woke version of Sunday School.
I miss the days of free range kids also; I was lucky enough to be one.
I sometimes suspect that my mother hoped I'd be taken by a sneaker wave or fall into the Necanicum and drown (OK, probably not :~)), but it was a pleasant childhood, just me and my doberman and a little beach town full of Scotch broom.
I’m not sure half the stuff we did a half century ago wouldn’t have gotten our parents charged with child endangerment today.
happystuff
11-28-20, 3:59pm
Maybe. Or maybe little kids will just treat these performances like most moral improvement projects adults put in their path and forget them after they’ve endured them. Sort of like a woke version of Sunday School.
This made me laugh as I remember quite clearly my Sunday School! Maybe it is a "nuns vs. no-nuns" thing. ROFLOL.
This made me laugh as I remember quite clearly my Sunday School! Maybe it is a "nuns vs. no-nuns" thing. ROFLOL.
It’s different when the teacher has a license to kill.
My Sunday school had stories of Abraham almost killing his son cause God said so. And Lot giving his virgin daughters to be raped to spare the angels. And God saving Noah’s family and killing everyone else. I think drag queens are less dangerous to little kids than bible stories.
happystuff
11-28-20, 4:09pm
It’s different when the teacher has a license to kill.
Okay, I'm missing something somewhere - could you please explain your connecting Sunday School and a teacher who has a license to kill??
Okay, I'm missing something somewhere - could you please explain your connecting Sunday School and a teacher who has a license to kill??
We had nuns armed with yardstick, thimbles and other deadly weapons and an inquisitorial tradition of discipline.
happystuff
11-28-20, 4:18pm
We had nuns armed with yardstick, thimbles and other deadly weapons and an inquisitorial tradition of discipline.
Okay, and you are equating that with a "license to kill"? If so, okay... I think I understand now. I was taking your "license to kill" a bit more literally than I am guessing/hoping you intended.
So... okay - yes, the older nuns in my day were something as well. LOL.
Teacher Terry
11-28-20, 4:21pm
Totally agree Tammy.
happystuff
11-28-20, 4:33pm
Totally agree Tammy.
I agree as well. I never could understand how a "kind and loving god" could sanction the things in the bible. Growing up and understanding that the bible was actually written by man - literally as both the species and the gender - gave me a whole new understanding.
My Sunday school had stories of Abraham almost killing his son cause God said so. And Lot giving his virgin daughters to be raped to spare the angels. And God saving Noah’s family and killing everyone else. I think drag queens are less dangerous to little kids than bible stories.
I got to that part of the Bible and threw it aside. I agree with your assessment.
In the Christian tradition, I believe the Old Testament was designed to put the literal fear of God into the masses while also attempting to explain the unexplainable. The New Testament centers more around Jesus and his attempts to bring love of God into the mainstream. As a non-believer I think it's best to throw out the Old and embrace the New, less as a religion and more as a philosophy.
happystuff
11-28-20, 5:53pm
In the Christian tradition, I believe the Old Testament was designed to put the literal fear of God into the masses while also attempting to explain the unexplainable. The New Testament centers more around Jesus and his attempts to bring love of God into the mainstream. As a non-believer I think it's best to throw out the Old and embrace the New, less as a religion and more as a philosophy.
And as a believer?
And as a believer?I can't answer that.
happystuff
11-28-20, 5:58pm
I can't answer that.
I never could and still can't, so I was wondering.
Maybe. Or maybe little kids will just treat these performances like most moral improvement projects adults put in their path and forget them after they’ve endured them. Sort of like a woke version of Sunday School.
Perhaps. But I think kids catch a lot more from the adults around them than we give them credit for. As a former gay teen I know I would have been quite happy/relieved to have seen a sign that my parents would be ok with me coming out to them. Would I have remembered going to DQ story hour when I was four? Who knows. But if it had been part of a steady stream of positive actions surrounding LGBT stuff over the years the whole of all of it would have been helpful as I came to grips with who I was.
In the Christian tradition, I believe the Old Testament was designed to put the literal fear of God into the masses while also attempting to explain the unexplainable. The New Testament centers more around Jesus and his attempts to bring love of God into the mainstream. As a non-believer I think it's best to throw out the Old and embrace the New, less as a religion and more as a philosophy.
I can't disagree.
In big picture terms, New Testament is better.
If you read all of it though, there’s lots of awful stuff in the NT also.
I read the whole book multiple times in various versions from age 10-35. Then I deconverted.
iris lilies
7-16-22, 11:28am
Returning to one of Iris’ many hobby horses, now We have taxpayer dollars spent on drag queens giving programs in New York City schools.
Fortunately, they are not Iris’ tax dollars. More than $200,000 of them.
stay tuned, Kansas and other flyover countries. I envision Priscilla Queen of the Desert rolling into rural districts to bring them drag queen shows. As an aside I do not understand why New York City kids need this when it’s pretty obvious there’s plenty of queen shows in their city. But those poor unwoke ruralKansas kids… We can only dream better dreams for them and bring drag into their lives.
https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/over-200k-being-spent-on-drag-queen-shows-at-nyc-scho (https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/over-200k-being-spent-on-drag-queen-shows-at-nyc-schools/)ols
In addition to the money being spent for this, I object to the content presented in school. A GOOD drag show, in my opinion, includes a lot of sexual innuendo. Campy sexing it up, hip gyrating and grinding, Dollar bills going into panties. Etc.
Perhaps they did not present a GOOD drag show? Gosh, an even better reason to spend as much money on them. Not.
I’m walking away, shaking my head.
I'm thinking Mrs. Doubtfire, personally. No panty tucking. Drag in mainstream culture is pretty common.
iris lilies
7-16-22, 12:21pm
I'm thinking Mrs. Doubtfire, personally. No panty tucking. Drag in mainstream culture is pretty common.
Tell me what kind of drag show Mrs. Doubtfire puts on?
Damn Edna is a drag persona but she’s a comedian. Dane Edna commands the stage as a talking performer. That is not a “drag “show as the queens in New York City present.
I will also say that back in the days when we were going to drag shows, I remember distinctly our friends took their then 12-year-old-ish daughter to one That was early in the evening, so it was not a late night drunk and smoke-filled room kind of experience. And I thought that was perfectly fine. It’s perfectly fine because her parents made a conscious decision to take her to a show that was adult oriented. So be it, her parents and their choice. same thing with pride parades which have a LOT of sexual innuendo although St. Louis’ pride parade is tame in that regard when compared to pride parades in San Francisco. Yes, I saw two gay pride parades in San Francisco because I happened to be there for American Library Association convention that same weekend. San Francisco gay pride has some raunchy exhibits in the parade, as it should be. If parents take their kids to that, no problem because parents are deciding.
These examples of parent centered choice is not what’s happening in New York City schools.
I'm no expert--though I'm a veteran of Darcelle's famous drag shows in Portland--I was thinking the library story hours would be announced in advance. I'm pretty sure there are various permutations of drag. (Darcelle with Mayor Wheeler) Darcelle is 92 now, and I think is mostly retired.
I don't much care whether or not there is such a thing as drag queen story hour, and agree that parents need to be involved,
4606
frugal-one
7-16-22, 2:02pm
Went out for lunch this week and they advertised Drag Bingo. Had to ask what that was... yeah, it was a person in drag calling out the bingo numbers.
Went out for lunch this week and they advertised Drag Bingo. Had to ask what that was... yeah, it was a person in drag calling out the bingo numbers.
I'd pay good money for Drag Electrician, or Drag Plumber, where a person in drag shows up at your house to do necessary service work in under 18 months. Heck, I'd settle for Nude Electrician. Or Clown Electrician. Really, any electrician at all, at this point.
So drag is the diversion du jour, and soon we'll move on to the next thing. Meanwhile, said diversion is providing jobs.
Teacher Terry
7-16-22, 2:11pm
I wouldn’t be taking my kids to drag queen anything. Kids need to just be kids for as long as possible.
iris lilies
7-16-22, 2:31pm
I wouldn’t be taking my kids to drag queen anything. Kids need to just be kids for as long as possible.
The thing is, Terry, I might well take my 12-year-old daughter to a drag show held in the early evening. It’s the sort of thing I think is funny. It’s a little risqué and fun for her to toe dip into the adult world.
The difference between me and, oh, about 1 million woke librarians and school administrators is that I understand it is RISQUÉ. It is UNECESSARY to bring into tax supported institutions that cater to children. It crosses a line.
in a way we can circle back to a discussion on another thread about bland library collections for the entire community. When everything in a library has to meet expectations for every individual, that necessitates a pretty bland collection. A one-size-fits-all collection is not diverse, edgy, forward/outlier, experimental or incorporating trends, etc. That’s why a library collection of many thousands of books is not “one size fits all. “It contains diverse reading material for the diverse individuals within the community.
A drag show school program, as I envision that happened, is intended for an entire audience. It is a “one size fits all “program for everyone in the audience. And that is why it’s wrong, because it’s known to be controversial. Common sense tells the presenters it is controversial. They don’t care, they want to experience their own self congratulatory back patting.
No wonder the school Board in the San Francisco Bay area was voted out, it was for stuff like this.
I wouldn’t be taking my kids to drag queen anything. Kids need to just be kids for as long as possible.
I'd avoid Bugs Bunny then!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVQrL3NVUAA9KSl.jpg
https://cdn.digg.com/submitted-links/1651259124-TaXdZKP0R4.jpg
And don't look too carefully into The Muppets....
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNWIyWKXoAA4faI?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
Heck, there are quite a few operas you'd have to avoid, and most any classic Shakespeare production.
iris lilies
7-16-22, 2:46pm
OK, you Warriors of wokeness. Tell me this now: is a burlesque show okay to take into public schools?
All this discussion reminds me that now that we’re finally getting settled in our new place, I’m going to come to the city during the winter and go to shows p, and there’s a burlesque room in St. Louis that is pretty popular. Here, “burlesque “means female dancers in provocative clothing. They perform sexually teasing dances.
Ultimately, I’d be fine with dictator story hour or used car salesman story hour if it can get kids within twenty feet of a book and get their brains off TikTok for sixty minutes.
OK, you Warriors of wokeness. Tell me this now: is a burlesque show okay to take into public schools?
Is it OK to teach mathematics and basic literacy in the public schools? Heck, you can even throw in some history and science if you want to go crazy.
If so, let's try that first. I'll be waiting.
Is it OK to teach mathematics and basic literacy in the public schools? Heck, you can even throw in some history and science if you want to go crazy.
If so, let's try that first. I'll be waiting.
All those things have been identified as tools of white supremacy, and need to be curtailed.
Burlesque, on the other hand, could prepare many students for lucrative careers.
All those things have been identified as tools of white supremacy, and need to be curtailed.
The woke and anti-woke outrage industry is a fine way to guarantee that we won't be producing citizens capable of critical thinking and effective participation in government. Which I suppose is the point.
All those things have been identified as tools of white supremacy, and need to be curtailed.
Similar to the way that teaching US history has been identified as something to be curtailed because it’s a tool of the whole mob to indoctrinate the children?
Similar to the way that teaching US history has been identified as something to be curtailed because it’s a tool of the whole mob to indoctrinate the children?
Drivel like the 1619 Project and it’s cousins are “history” in the same sense that twinkies are “food”.
iris lilies
7-16-22, 3:46pm
Similar to the way that teaching US history has been identified as something to be curtailed because it’s a tool of the whole mob to indoctrinate the children?
No, not similar.
we all agree United States history is a major area of knowledge public schools will teach. We can quibble about how it’s taught and what exactly is taught.
If you think we can all agree that burlesque and drag are appropriate programs for schools and libraries and we simply disagree on specifics of those programs (Mrs. Doubtfire versus tits and ass for instance) you must be smoking crack.
iris lilies
7-16-22, 4:04pm
All those things have been identified as tools of white supremacy, and need to be curtailed.
Burlesque, on the other hand, could prepare many students for lucrative careers.
Sure, then every 14-year-old girl thinks she’s Dita Von Tease just like every podcaster thinks he is Joe Rogan.
I can tell you, they are not Joe Rogan.
OK, you Warriors of wokeness. Tell me this now: is a burlesque show okay to take into public schools?
All this discussion reminds me that now that we’re finally getting settled in our new place, I’m going to come to the city during the winter and go to shows p, and there’s a burlesque room in St. Louis that is pretty popular. Here, “burlesque “means female dancers in provocative clothing. They perform sexually teasing dances.
I'm not sure old-timey burlesque would raise an eyebrow in today's world of entertainment.
I think that's Dita von Teese--and from what I can tell, the average 14-year old girl could give her a run for her money.
I like bae's idea of themed tradespeople, though.
iris lilies
3-6-23, 8:25pm
More drag shows, this one for toddlers. The show is absolutely shocking. I dare anyone here to tell me that is appropriate for children.
No, I don’t think the government needs to step in to address this, but I do think parents need to grow some brains. This one takes place in the UK but it could just as easily take place here. Although I will say the Brits are a little more relaxed about raunchy stuff than Americans in my opinion.
The drag show starts at 3:07. This show is put on by a group of drag queens who craft their shows specifically for toddlers so this is not a one off.
This makes me think of the drag queen who spoke to the Missouri legislature recently protesting an upcoming bill. The queen asked “don’t you trust us to know what is an appropriate show for children? “ No, apparently we should not.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo6ZU1Gm76A
I wonder what sort of performance Tennessee Governor Lee did back when he did drag?
iris lilies
3-7-23, 1:05am
I wonder what sort of performance Tennessee Governor Lee did back when he did drag?
I have no idea. Way to deflect. And what does that have to do with sexually charged shows of naked adults performing in front of toddlers? This is not “grooming,” right?
I have no idea. Way to deflect. And what does that have to do with sexually charged shows of naked adults performing in front of toddlers? This is not “grooming,” right?
I read stories almost every week about ministers or preachers or priests molesting children. I’ve never read one about a drag queen doing that. I wonder who is more likely to be a groomer, a drag queen or a ‘man of god’?
And what does that have to do with sexually charged shows of naked adults performing in front of toddlers?
How many of these "sexually charged shows of naked adults performing in front of toddlers" are there going on in the USA?
Where?
What happens there?
Where do you learn this?
iris lilies
3-7-23, 7:58am
How many of these "sexually charged shows of naked adults performing in front of toddlers" are there going on in the USA?
Where?
What happens there?
The RuPaul family friendly Christmas drag show, which was not family friendly at all, made the rounds in Texas and Florida, and possibly other locations.“What happens there? “is in the film clips I’ve provided for you on this thread.
Where do you learn this?
YouTube baby.
I answered your questions, and now I’m going to ask you: do you think it’s appropriate entertainment for toddlers?
iris lilies
3-7-23, 8:03am
I read stories almost every week about ministers or preachers or priests molesting children. I’ve never read one about a drag queen doing that. I wonder who is more likely to be a groomer, a drag queen or a ‘man of god’?
In incongruous situations sometimes it helps to ask “”why? “ Maybe we need to ask why drag queens want to parade around in G strings and bondage gear, performing pelvic thrust acts with their legs apart, bumping and grinding, in front of toddlers. What do they get out of that? Interesting to contemplate.
iris lilies
3-7-23, 9:39am
For those who don’t want to take the time to look at the video, here are three stills from that video showing different performers. There were 3 shown in the video. Again, not a one off. These drag queens are doing their regular adult show for toddlers. Couldn’t even be bothered to craft a new age-appropriate show. Low effort, I would say.
in bondage gear
5247
Poses Highlighting crotch
5248
5246
iris lilies
3-7-23, 9:43am
Also, having spent some time reading up on this ridiculous stuff, I have learned something woke librarians who schedule drag shows for their story hours need to understand: some in the trans community don’t like drag queens and drag shows for kids because those performers are usually cis gay men who present caricatures of women. They’re not real women like trans women.
Hey, I don’t make this stuff up, I just report it. :~)
iris lilies
3-7-23, 10:27am
It just occurred to me how transphobic are drag shows as they seemingly mock trans women. Drag Queens, the current TERFs.
Anyone remember the “Satanic Panic” of the 1980s?…
I answered your questions, ...
You did not.
Your photos/videos did not show "sexually charged shows of naked adults performing in front of toddlers".
Anyone remember the “Satanic Panic” of the 1980s?…
Yes, and I am reminded of that collective hysteria quite a bit lately.
In incongruous situations sometimes it helps to ask “”why? “ Maybe we need to ask why drag queens want to parade around in G strings and bondage gear, performing pelvic thrust acts with their legs apart, bumping and grinding, in front of toddlers. What do they get out of that? Interesting to contemplate.
I've asked the "why" question here before without receiving a response. I can only assume the answer is multi-pronged, an effort to normalize fetishes to impressionable audiences (grooming seems to be the appropriate word for that), and an accompanying phenomenon of young parents signaling their social cachet by dragging their children to them.
iris lilies
3-7-23, 6:55pm
You did not.
Your photos/videos did not show "sexually charged shows of naked adults performing in front of toddlers".
Oh! I should say “near” naked. My apologies.
In many situations, complete nudity is far less sexual than the little scrap o’fabric these Queens provocatively display.
iris lilies
3-7-23, 6:57pm
I've asked the "why" question here before without receiving a response. I can only assume the answer is multi-pronged, an effort to normalize fetishes to impressionable audiences (grooming seems to be the appropriate word for that), and an accompanying phenomenon of young parents signaling their social cachet by dragging their children to them.
Yes, all of these. Middle class white moms are all about the drag shows for their children.
2 years ago I would have argued with you on the “groomer” label, but no longer.
It's interesting how expressions of freedom includes liberal fire arms ownerships, exemptions from vaccine requirements, and even a "free the nipple" movement for women in a local community, but a few minor drag shows are evil. Not that I approve, but it seems like dual standards and more is being made of things than exists. Relatively speaking.
I'm intrigued that the freedom loving, parental rights, small government party has turned into the micromanage everyone's personal lives party. I wonder when they stopped trusting parents to make decisions for their kids. After all, no one was forcing anyone to take their kids to drag queen story hour. Now there's someone trying to force people NOT to take their kids to drag queen story hour.
I somehow cannot bring myself to care about this burning issue of our times.
iris lilies
3-8-23, 11:46am
I somehow cannot bring myself to care about this burning issue of our times.
Haha, well, it is smol but interesting on the world stage of burning issues.
It is definitely interesting since it highlights how dramatically the republican party has changed over time.
1980's republicans: The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
2023 republicans: I'm from the government and I'm here to tell you how to raise your kids.
flowerseverywhere
3-8-23, 12:20pm
Can someone provide evidence this is "grooming" kids? Grooming them to become exactly what? Being non heterosexual is so abhorrent parental choices should be outlawed?
TV and the internet are available to kids. Far worse than the clip. Maybe not at Allowed home but none of us live in a cocoon.
Talk about parental rights. Ridiculous this issue is so important to people who want smaller and less intrusive governments.
iris lilies
3-8-23, 12:24pm
Anyone remember the “Satanic Panic” of the 1980s?…
That was a crazy time and yes, I have seen that as an analogy to current times only I’m not equating it with drag queen shows for toddlers because lives are not being ruined by grown men sticking their crotch in the faces of youth. Kids are resilient and will get over it if it even registers with them, as long as it doesn’t progress…
No, Lives were ruined in the Satanic panic when court cases dragged on with children front and center, families and friendships torn apart by accusations (usually unfounded) and high emotion, and most importantly, innocent people put in jail.
Uber concerned parents, the rumor mill, pseudoscience mixed with some real science, emotions leading facts, self important experts, all these a hand in making that craziness take place.
I think of the Satanic panic as analogous to medicalized treatment of trans teens. This time around big monies are being made.
I don't understand how grooming is supposed to be going on in here. "Grooming" kids to be tolerant of people's differences? I've been to adult drag shows in Portland at (famous) Darcelle's and didn't find them more than mildly risque'. I imagine a man in a dress reading a book (Sgt.Klinger, anyone?) to be much less so.
iris lilies
3-8-23, 12:41pm
Can someone provide evidence this is "grooming" kids? Grooming them to become exactly what?…
Well you asked.
—Grooming kids to accept adults leering at kids
—Grooming kids to accept being in the same space as adults in sexually provocative costume “playing” with sex
—Grooming kids to know mommy thinks it ok that big man playfully interacts with me …next step is me and man without mommy in the room? Hmmm…
Anyone who knows anything about child sexual abuse knows that sex play is an important tool of child predators. Add in collusion (beloved parents ok’ing the sex play,) and the power imbalance/ vulnerability of kids and you have a grooming environment. I will admit that it’s lacking a very important tool of child sexual abuse, and that is the secrecy element.
I like the transparency of it, I gotta say. That is why we get to talk about it because we know about it!
what is next, lap dances for kids?
If you want to teach your kids about diversity, why not have a gay astronaut? A trans IT engineer (and there are tons of those) or a trans stay at home dad? Why all the sex stuff?
Teaching your kids about other genders through drag shows is like teaching your kids about women achievers by taking them to a strip club.
iris lilies
3-8-23, 12:45pm
I don't understand how grooming is supposed to be going on in here. "Grooming" kids to be tolerant of people's differences? I've been to adult drag shows in Portland at (famous) Darcelle's and didn't find them more than mildly risque'. I imagine a man in a dress reading a book (Sgt.Klinger, anyone?) to be much less so.
Jane, the problem is that queens are now providing sexually provocative shows for children. They call them “family friendly. “ These are not faux ladies in dresses sitting, reading stories. You see how it has progressed from 2015 when faux ladies ladies lead story hour. Now we have sex shows for toddlers. Keep an eye on what’s happening in the UK, they are about 18 months ahead of us in a couple of social trends.
iris lilies
3-8-23, 1:17pm
Vaguely related, I re-watched parts of the Larry Nassar documentary. If you think children are not easily led and are not so very very vulnerable, acquaint yourself with Larry Nassar, gymnastics physician to the Olympians, who stuck his fingers in the vaginas of hundreds of girls, many times with their mothers sitting right there. He was a very successful predator, he got to touch them.
Here we have power imbalance, apparent collusion of parents (but they did not know details) and the all important secrecy element.
Adult males who choose careers enabling them unlimited access to young people--clergy, scout leaders, coaches, physicians, educators, etc. are always suspect--even if they are innocent--for good or for ill.
Drag queen story time is a one-off performance, surely, without the ongoing interactions necessary for actual grooming.
We should probably do away with cheerleading and with teen beauty pageants if we want to stop adults leering at children.
In all honesty though I think the kids would probably be better served if we were talking about the question of why several states are rolling back, or attempting to roll back, child labor laws.
iris lilies
3-9-23, 9:46am
We should probably do away with cheerleading and with teen beauty pageants if we want to stop adults leering at children.
In all honesty though I think the kids would probably be better served if we were talking about the question of why several states are rolling back, or attempting to roll back, child labor laws.
I am not aware that this site has ever celebrated child beauty pageants. Yes, one of the production crew on tv’s “Toddlers and Tiaras” had a police record for involvement in child sexual abuse. I think it was one of the producers.
iris lilies
3-9-23, 9:55am
Adult males who choose careers enabling them unlimited access to young people--clergy, scout leaders, coaches, physicians, educators, etc. are always suspect--even if they are innocent--for good or for ill.
Drag queen story time is a one-off performance, surely, without the ongoing interactions necessary for actual grooming.
It is grooming for the community, for future man-child interactions. This is not one -on-one grooming. Stage performers are doing it for their teammates. The on-stage sex play is seduction work, setting the stage and making it easier for any child predator to take advantage.
I am not saying this is always the intent of all performers, but breaking down boundaries of decency (and I have always hated that word, but this is what it is) can lead to unintended consequences.
Yup, folks, full "Satanic Panic" on display.
iris lilies
3-9-23, 11:37am
Yup, folks, full "Satanic Panic" on display.
You can continue to repeat it, but that doesn’t make it true. But certainly there’s a grain of truth in your thought.
Basically here I feel lied to, betrayed. I would’ve defended drag shows as perfectly fine adult entertainment, even very raunchy ones, until recently. I used to go to drag shows. Half of our friends were gay men back in the day, and they like drag shows. We had fun. Same thing for raunchy Pride parade entries.
And then the raunch started showing up in “family friendly” shows that were not family friendly at all, this immediately following breaking a barrier with low key drag story times, then more lively and provocative drag shows in actual public schools. Both are tax supported institutions.
It is a lie that this is not insidious and growing. Stop lying.
I don't think that drag shows in libraries are necessarily worth any kind of panic, satanic or otherwise, but I agree with IL. I do not believe that overtly sexualized shows are appropriate for children, especially in public places. It doesn't matter if it's a hetero show, gay show, trans show or drag show. The specific images IL showed were objectionable for pre-pubescent children, IMHO. It is not age-appropriate content. It is nowhere near as innocuous as Corporal Klinger. It is not sly innuendo. Other toddler drag shows may vary. Frankly, I'm not fond of toddler beauty pageants either for similar reasons.
ETA: I went back and watched again..since I can't judge the story line of the show, I can only say that the offensive part of that show is the thong, and I agree that the acrobat outfit is very, very borderline for a toddler library show.
I am not aware that this site has ever celebrated child beauty pageants. Yes, one of the production crew on tv’s “Toddlers and Tiaras” had a police record for involvement in child sexual abuse. I think it was one of the producers.
Maybe republican legislatures should be attacking beauty pageants with the same zeal that they are attacking drag queens and the LGBTQ community. At least then it would seem like they actually had some sort of coherent agenda. As it is now it's just them attacking a bunch of people they don't like.
iris lilies
3-9-23, 1:58pm
Maybe republican legislatures should be attacking beauty pageants with the same zeal that they are attacking drag queens and the LGBTQ community. At least then it would seem like they actually had some sort of coherent agenda. As it is now it's just them attacking a bunch of people they don't like.
Perhaps if drag queens would stay in their lane it wouldn’t incite all these silly legislative actions.
always follow the money. Drag queens are now forming companies to provide daytime shows to children. That’s a pretty nice gig, daytime employment as well as the adult shows at night, doubling their income. Not that anyone’s getting rich in that world but the monies are increasing.
Who exactly gets to decide what drag queens’ lane is? If enough parents want to take their kids to drag queen events then it would seem that daytime events are in fact part of their lane.
iris lilies
3-9-23, 3:25pm
Who exactly gets to decide what drag queens’ lane is? If enough parents want to take their kids to drag queen events then it would seem that daytime events are in fact part of their lane.
How about this JP — if you agree to keep drag performers out of tax supported institutions I will agree that parents get to do what they want to do with her children. I have already stated that this is not a case where I want to see the law step in.
If parents want to take their children to “family friendly “drag shows that are not family friendly at all, paying a ticket price for it, that is the freedom of America.
*I* “get to decide” drag shows are for adults. Yep, me. That opinion is mine to hold, my right to hold and speak an opinion.
But when my tax dollars start supporting this bullshit, then school administrators can expect visits to school board meetings, campaigning for school board members, etc. as an inevitable consequence.
Teacher Terry
3-9-23, 5:04pm
I totally agree with both of you IL and Catherine. It’s adult entertainment and not suitable for kids.
There have always been (mostly male) sexual predators among us. Does it matter if they're wearing drag or clerical garb?
I am with IL, Catherine, and Terry on this one, having known people who were subjected to inappropriate adult sexual interest as children. I don't understand why anyone is getting funding to do anything sexual in nature around children, and as a parent, it was part of my job to protect my children from adults who were interested in exposing them to sexual material and situations.
flowerseverywhere
3-9-23, 7:31pm
Every day in the US 22 children are shot
https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics
2 die of neglect or abuse, mostly very young
almost 400,000 kids are in foster care.
https://www.childwelfare.gov/fostercaremonth/awareness/facts/
2.5 million kids are homeless. 700 thousand on their own from 13-17
https://www.air.org/centers/national-center-family-homelessness
now that is what I call a disgrace
Unfortunately, a lot of the kids being abused, in foster care, or running away and becoming homeless are being sexually targeted by adults. So it's not really one or the other.
Unfortunately, a lot of the kids being abused, in foster care, or running away and becoming homeless are being sexually targeted by adults. So it's not really one or the other.
True, but we'd probably stop more sexual abuse by attempting to address those other problems than we will by hating on drag queen story hour and LGBTQ folks. LGBTQ youth are 120% more likely to wind up homeless than their straight counterparts with family conflict being the most common reason for this. Getting people to stop hating LGBTQ people, including their own children, would go a long way towards helping solve this. When interviewed, the Q shooter's father expressed gratitude that his son was only a mass murderer and not a gay man.
https://nn4youth.org/lgbtq-homeless-youth/
flowerseverywhere
3-10-23, 8:00am
It is far easier to demonize and wring hands about drag queens than deal with the big issues.
Remember when Trump said “nobody knew health care was so complicated”? And it had to be done before tax cuts?
Here is a refresher
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5oQLf65N-AU
well homelessness, guns, drugs, immigration and so on are very complicated and require work, compromise and funding. But I have no doubt the campaigning Republican self appointed moral police love that drag queen story hour is making headlines.
It is far easier to demonize and wring hands about drag queens than deal with the big issues.
Remember when Trump said “nobody knew health care was so complicated”? And it had to be done before tax cuts?
Here is a refresher
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5oQLf65N-AU
well homelessness, guns, drugs, immigration and so on are very complicated and require work, compromise and funding. But I have no doubt the campaigning Republican self appointed moral police love that drag queen story hour is making headlines.
That's a good point, Flowers. And I do think that when someone sees something that violates a cultural norm about keeping adult sexuality separate from children, it is appropriate to be concerned about it. I think it's unfortunate that we seem as a culture to not be able to deal with more than one problem at a time, or that we insist on thinking, well, if I do something about this problem that is in front of me, then I am ignoring the bigger real problems "out there." We all have to deal with the problems that we see in front of us. As a parent, I did try to protect my child, and I think that many people objecting to the show that IL gave pictures of are also trying to protect their children, and I think that is reasonable.
I also disagree that someone objecting to this show for children is homophobic. I'd be equally disturbed if it were a heterosexual person doing the same thing--there is something very off about the performance she showed us, that it was crafted for children. The person who made sexual overtures to my underage son engaged in similar "let's all view sexual stuff so that I can help you deal with your emotional development about sexual stuff and help craft your worldview". The hetereosexual man that raped my son's friend in middle school did the same thing. To me, it's similar to parents who abuse alcohol or drugs with their children.
iris lilies
3-10-23, 11:01am
It is far easier to demonize and wring hands about drag queens than deal with the big issues.
….
I agree with you, the drag queen issue seems human scale to me. It seems something I can wrap my head around and when there are debates in my local state legislature an hour away from where I live, it seems as though I have some control on this issue.
Like Dave .Ramey’s approach to debt, knock iff the little issues or debts before they become bigger. Nip them in the bud.
every social issue you name is of course a problem for our society.
Grooming...
https://www.comicsands.com/library-vandal-arrested-child-doll-2659589737.html
iris lilies
3-14-23, 8:56am
Grooming...
https://www.comicsands.com/library-vandal-arrested-child-doll-2659589737.html
Do you have a point here? My takeaway might be “It takes one to know one.”
I'm so glad that the Tennessee republicans protected those kids from drag queens. It's far better to be killed in a socially acceptable manner than to have a man in women's clothes read them a story.
The world's oldest drag queen died this week in Portland. I had the pleasure of whiling away many boozy hours in her club.
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/25/1166043152/darcelle-oldest-working-drag-queen-dies-92
The city is considering renaming the street her club sits on in her honor.
She is who I think of when I picture "drag queen," not some vulgar bloke in a thong.
iris lilies
3-29-23, 1:06pm
The world's oldest drag queen died this week in Portland. I had the pleasure of whiling away many boozy hours in her club.
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/25/1166043152/darcelle-oldest-working-drag-queen-dies-92
The city is considering renaming the street her club sits on in her honor.
She is who I think of when I picture "drag queen," not some vulgar bloke in a thong.
92 and still slinging it. Good for her!
I like to think of her as knowing enough to stay in her lane, adult entertainment for adults. Perhaps she did suggestive work, perhaps it was full out raunch, but I will bet she wouldn’t appear in a thong at any age, performing for small children and terming it “family friendly.”
92 and still slinging it. Good for her!
I like to think of her as knowing enough to stay in her lane, adult entertainment for adults. Perhaps she did suggestive work, perhaps it was full out raunch, but I will bet she wouldn’t appear in a thong at any age, performing for small children and terming it “family friendly.”
Her act was mildly suggestive, as I recall--reminiscent of old-time burlesque. I can't imagine her in a thong, and if she ever appeared at the library, she would have been fabulous.
iris lilies
4-27-23, 9:24am
Well you asked.
—Grooming kids to accept adults leering at kids
—Grooming kids to accept being in the same space as adults in sexually provocative costume “playing” with sex
—Grooming kids to know mommy thinks it ok that big man playfully interacts with me …next step is me and man without mommy in the room? Hmmm…
Anyone who knows anything about child sexual abuse knows that sex play is an important tool of child predators. Add in collusion (beloved parents ok’ing the sex play,) and the power imbalance/ vulnerability of kids and you have a grooming environment. I will admit that it’s lacking a very important tool of child sexual abuse, and that is the secrecy element.
I like the transparency of it, I gotta say. That is why we get to talk about it because we know about it!
what is next, lap dances for kids?
If you want to teach your kids about diversity, why not have a gay astronaut? A trans IT engineer (and there are tons of those) or a trans stay at home dad? Why all the sex stuff?
Teaching your kids about other genders through drag shows is like teaching your kids about women achievers by taking them to a strip club.
I am responding to my own post. Lap dances for kids. Ridiculous, right? Yeah, that’s what YOU thought.
Recently I saw a video of just this. A young girl around 8 years old, sitting in a chair with an audience behind her. A stripper/drag Queen wraps herself around the chair, cupping her hands around the little girl’s face. Audience clapping and hooting.
If you have ever been to a bachelor or bachelorette party where a stripper is hired to honor the impending groom or bride, this is the scene.
Let’s keep adult entertainment in the realm of adults, shall we? To the purveyors of Drag Shows for Kids who claim they know how to present age appropriate entertainment I say: Stop Lying, clearly you do not.
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