View Full Version : Las Vegas
Ultralight
10-3-17, 7:50am
After reflecting for a couple days or so, I simply feel like shootings such as the one that happened in Las Vegas are an unfortunately normal part of the American experience.
This is just one part of American culture -- a big part, a part America is known for throughout the world. This is what happens when you have a society that is largely obsessed with guns, violence oozing out of all the media, and a disregard for mental healthcare.
Williamsmith
10-3-17, 9:34am
After reflecting for a couple days or so, I simply feel like shootings such as the one that happened in Las Vegas are an unfortunately normal part of the American experience.
This is just one part of American culture -- a big part, a part America is known for throughout the world. This is what happens when you have a society that is largely obsessed with guns, violence oozing out of all the media, and a disregard for mental healthcare.
Reach back farther in history and you will find the reason guns became such a big part of the American culture. 59 people is a horrible tally for one mass shooter but you know there have been places that tens of thousands have been killed with muzzleloaders. Violence is not new to Americans. Our land is soaked with the blood of our neighbors.
Our land is soaked with the blood of our neighbors.
What land isn't?
Williamsmith
10-3-17, 9:42am
What land isn't?
From what I hear.....”Lala Land”
catherine
10-3-17, 10:23am
Violence is not new to Americans. Our land is soaked with the blood of our neighbors.
What land isn't?
I think Williamsmith has a point. Our history as conquistadors is relatively short, and maybe we're still working it out of our cultural DNA. By contrast, Europe has been sitting happily with no desire to go out conquer each other for a long, long time. Back in the 15th & 16th century, the peace loving Europeans stayed home, while the other land-hungry devils went out and conquered the Americas and parts of Africa and Asia.
I subscribe to the "seven generations" philosophy, although in our case it goes back more like 14-15 generations. I also believe that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword.
Well, a long long time if you don't count Hitler, of course, who conquered and murdered as many of his neighbors as he could.
iris lilies
10-3-17, 10:46am
"Peace loving Europeans" my ass.
Each time we go to Europe we are steeped in the history of recent wars. We see Leftover armature, geographical boundaries newly drawn to give spoils to the victors, brutal regimes that stomp on the people. We havent even traveled near the carnage of Bosnia.
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-17, 10:51am
"Peace loving Europeans" my ass.
Each time we go to Europe we are steeped in the history of recent wars. We see Leftover armature, geographical boundaries newly drawn to give spoils to the victors, brutal regimes that stomp on the people. We havent even traveled near the carnage of Bosnia.I believe there is something to what you say, IL. One of my beliefs for why socialized medicine exists and why so much paid time off is granted and why social democracy exists in general in Europe - the suffering of the Two World Wars. Europe does have a history that is not especially peace loving, this much is true, but neither does America when you come to think of it. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-3-17, 10:56am
enough with the disregard for mental healthcare, maybe sometimes people who need help can't afford it, but the guy was a #$@#$ multimillionaire, he of all people could not afford all the mental health care he wanted? Puh ... lease ... Unless you mean something like lack of proper parenting when he was 4 or something for which nothing could be done at this point anyway except to make sure the current batch of 4 year olds have it better, shrug, I don't know, but could be.
Plus as mentally ill people argue it's pretty unfair to blame these types of things on mentally ill people, as mentally ill people, and I mean even what gets termed psychotic, do not necessarily (ok argue statistics with me if you know otherwise) have higher rates of violence than anyone else in the population. So yea whatever maybe it's not great to have schizophrenia or something in other ways, since some mentally ill are homeless etc., but maybe it's incorrect to assume they are more *violent* than anyone else. The problem with armchair diagnosing behavior that is very hard for the rest of us to understand as "mentally ill", is people who really have a diagnosis get smeared just because we don't even know any other term to use.
catherine
10-3-17, 10:56am
"Peace loving Europeans" my ass.
Each time we go to Europe we are steeped in the history of recent wars. We see Leftover armature, geographical boundaries newly drawn to give spoils to the victors, brutal regimes that stomp on the people. We havent even traveled near the carnage of Bosnia.
OK.. you and Tybee got me there. Now that I'm thinking about it, there was also the Armenian genocide, not to mention the Eastern Europe messes that IL mentioned, and of course, Hitler. Never mind.
I did look up "history of gun love" and learned that American gun love is a cultural thing having been borne out of the use of guns in militia during the Revolutionary War, self-preservation during frontier days, and glorification of guns through in entertainment, literature, and eventually movies and TV.
Closely related to the militia tradition was the frontier tradition with the need for a means of self-protection closely associated with the nineteenth century westward expansion and the American frontier. There remains a powerful central elevation of the gun associated with the hunting/sporting and militia/frontier ethos among the American Gun Culture.[2] Though it has not been a necessary part of daily survival for over a century, generations of Americans have continued to embrace and glorify it as a living inheritance—a permanent element of the nation's style and culture.[3] In popular literature, frontier adventure was most famously told by James Fenimore Cooper, who is credited by Petri Liukkonen with creating the archetype of an 18th-century frontiersman through such novels as The Last of the Mohicans (1826) and The Deerslayer (1840).[4]. Wikipedia
So my point about being part of our cultural DNA may still be true. But I still don't understand why gun ownership gets a completely free pass.
ToomuchStuff
10-3-17, 11:18am
I think Williamsmith has a point. Our history as conquistadors is relatively short, and maybe we're still working it out of our cultural DNA. By contrast, Europe has been sitting happily with no desire to go out conquer each other for a long, long time. Back in the 15th & 16th century, the peace loving Europeans stayed home, while the other land-hungry devils went out and conquered the Americas and parts of Africa and Asia.
I subscribe to the "seven generations" philosophy, although in our case it goes back more like 14-15 generations. I also believe that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword.
How funny. 1492, being part of the 15th century, there are a bunch of people who died because of these "peaceful" European's your talking about.
I believe that the mentally ill are more often victimized than they are the aggressor. I Believe there is research to support that. However I'm home from work today sick, and I honestly don't have the energy to look it up.
There are parts of the world, including civilized nations, where bombings, terror attacks, mass murders or genocide are part of every day life. We might be reaching a point in our American culture when we just have to adapt the British motto, "stay calm, carry on".
I just got a note from a friend of mine who works with an unspecified LV law enforcement group, so here’s a direct non-media account:
“I’ll be brief since I’ve been up for just over 40 hours with no sleep. This was a single dude in a suite that sat on a corner of the Mandalay Bay. Metro SWAT executed an explosive breach on his room just shy of 20 minutes after the shooting started and he self selected out of the gene pool just before someone was going to cancel his subscription for him. He had set up for the long haul with cameras in the halls to detect the police, a shooting platform built innhe room, tripods, laser rangefinder, binos, spotting scope, etc. along with a diagram of the venue with exits and entrances marked. It was something he had spent some time planning and setting up.
I spent most of the night triaging injured people in advance of the transport teams moving them to the casualty collection point and out to the hospitals and the last part going back over the dead to make sure they weren’t just severely injured and had been missed in the confusion. I haven’t seen carnage like this since Iraq in 04-05 when AQI was trying to start a sectarian war with suicide bombers and VBIEDs. Pretty surreal, at least for today. As P. mentioned earlier, I’m good, just need a few hours of sleep. I appreciate the thoughts and prayers. I’ll check in tomorrow when I’ve got some time.”
catherine
10-3-17, 12:17pm
How funny. 1492, being part of the 15th century, there are a bunch of people who died because of these "peaceful" European's your talking about.
That was my point--the not-so-peaceful ones went out and conquered.
Williamsmith
10-3-17, 12:30pm
I just got a note from a friend of mine who works with an unspecified LV law enforcement group, so here’s a direct non-media account:
“I’ll be brief since I’ve been up for just over 40 hours with no sleep. This was a single dude in a suite that sat on a corner of the Mandalay Bay. Metro SWAT executed an explosive breach on his room just shy of 20 minutes after the shooting started and he self selected out of the gene pool just before someone was going to cancel his subscription for him. He had set up for the long haul with cameras in the halls to detect the police, a shooting platform built innhe room, tripods, laser rangefinder, binos, spotting scope, etc. along with a diagram of the venue with exits and entrances marked. It was something he had spent some time planning and setting up.
I spent most of the night triaging injured people in advance of the transport teams moving them to the casualty collection point and out to the hospitals and the last part going back over the dead to make sure they weren’t just severely injured and had been missed in the confusion. I haven’t seen carnage like this since Iraq in 04-05 when AQI was trying to start a sectarian war with suicide bombers and VBIEDs. Pretty surreal, at least for today. As P. mentioned earlier, I’m good, just need a few hours of sleep. I appreciate the thoughts and prayers. I’ll check in tomorrow when I’ve got some time.”
Today it’s the nuts and bolts of it. Later, your friend will really need the thoughts and prayers.
A person whose plans are that detailed and nobody knows about it....is a real recluse. He will be a Ted Kaczynski type with a little bit of a survivalist interest in the end of the world as we know it. Yeah, brilliant analysis...I know.
I have read a few reports claiming the gunman used what they are calling a bump stock, which essentially converts a semi-automatic rifle to a full auto. And it's apparently legal and easy to get. There's something for the gun control folks to latch on to.
I have read a few reports claiming the gunman used what they are calling a bump stock, which essentially converts a semi-automatic rifle to a full auto. And it's apparently legal and easy to get. There's something for the gun control folks to latch on to.
If you hold a semi-automatic rifle "loosely", so that it is not quite contacting the correct area on your shoulder, when you pull the trigger and it fires, and it recoils, it will bounce back, hit your shoulder, and bounce forward again. If you have held your trigger-finger firmly-but-loosely during this process, and if your forward grip hand is somewhat loose, as it bounces back it will attempt to travel past the spot where your trigger finger is, and your finger will-reengage the trigger, and the firearm will fire again. And the process will continue.
This is a bit of a stupid thing to do generally, more of a parlor trick, as rifle accuracy is dependent upon properly shouldering the firearm, maintaining a correct alignment of muscles and bones, tension, breath control, trigger control, and sighting. Accuracy with the "bump" method is very very poor, and it's not the safest thing in the world to do.
The "bump-fire" stocks make the stunt easier to accomplish (a bit, it only takes 2-3 minutes to learn to do this without any equipment), but the stocks don't really address the accuracy issues. IMO they are a novelty item to separate foolish shooters from their money.
Note also that the same effect can be had with a piece of string.
The BATF technical division has issued several detailed letters on the subject that people interested in facts can dig up easily enough.
iris lilies
10-3-17, 12:59pm
I like to think of the United States as being out of the ongoing strife of the rest of the world, protected largely by geographical boundaries with oceans on either side. And those nice Canadian up north are hardly a threat, and the Mexican government still likes us more or less, at least likes our money and remains open.
But maybe this internal strife, the ongoing shootings, is our violence/cross to bear. Maybe humans have internal need to have violence in their lives. There is a theory of war that war allows acceptable outlet for killing, raping, mayhem for those who have this need. That is not at all people of course, not by a long shot, and our military folks are largely not of this mental mindset.
When we dont have outside enemies, we turn on ourselves. That is what I noticed in my neighborhood, when we have no outside threats, and this neighborhood has risen up against several strong threats. When no outside challanges present themselves, we turn toward each other infighting.
I suppose a well drawn common enemy does wonders for national unity.
None of these are things I believe absolutely, but they may have some validity.
When we dont have outside enemies, we turn on ourselves
I think there may be something to this.
Also, though I can't say why, I have a sense that some males are becoming more "brutish", i.e. prone to violence, lack of self control, disregard for others...
I hope too when they look into this dude's private life, that they check what meds he was taking.
ApatheticNoMore
10-3-17, 2:30pm
But maybe this internal strife, the ongoing shootings, is our violence/cross to bear. Maybe humans have internal need to have violence in their lives. There is a theory of war that war allows acceptable outlet for killing, raping, mayhem for those who have this need. That is not at all people of course, not by a long shot, and our military folks are largely not of this mental mindset.
many of them seem to be ex-military, so they would have been people who at one point did have a chance to have an external enemy (no I didn't say the converse and that a great deal of ex-military are going on shooting rampages or anything like that - suicide seems to be the main risk there). So maybe these few deeply disturbed people can't get that in their lives anymore? Wow sad.
I don't like the generalizations about maybe humans have a need for violence etc. as statistically the overwhelming amount of such violence is committed by males, so more a case of who you calling "we"?
If you hold a semi-automatic rifle "loosely", so that it is not quite contacting the correct area on your shoulder, when you pull the trigger and it fires, and it recoils, it will bounce back, hit your shoulder, and bounce forward again. If you have held your trigger-finger firmly-but-loosely during this process, and if your forward grip hand is somewhat loose, as it bounces back it will attempt to travel past the spot where your trigger finger is, and your finger will-reengage the trigger, and the firearm will fire again. And the process will continue.
This is a bit of a stupid thing to do generally, more of a parlor trick, as rifle accuracy is dependent upon properly shouldering the firearm, maintaining a correct alignment of muscles and bones, tension, breath control, trigger control, and sighting. Accuracy with the "bump" method is very very poor, and it's not the safest thing in the world to do.
The "bump-fire" stocks make the stunt easier to accomplish (a bit, it only takes 2-3 minutes to learn to do this without any equipment), but the stocks don't really address the accuracy issues. IMO they are a novelty item to separate foolish shooters from their money.
Note also that the same effect can be had with a piece of string.
The BATF technical division has issued several detailed letters on the subject that people interested in facts can dig up easily enough.
Interesting. I suspect that crude manual methods are possible, but lack a large degree of control. This utube video using a commercial bump stock seems to be relatively controllable. I understand that the ATF has reviewed them and they are currently legal, but if you ask me it pretty much looks like a machine gun. I don't think you could do that with a string (or maybe it just takes a lot of practice).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE
There was a case a few years back where a fellow was convicted of "constructive possession" because he had a piece of string and an AR-15. Probably he shouldn't have filmed it in use.
The "crude manual methods" work just as well as that overpriced stock, which is just a toy to part idiot shooters from their money.
The reason it isn't a "machine gun" involves technicalities of the law - basically the trigger is being independently pressed for each round fired. The basic legal difference between a fully-automatic firearm and a semi-automatic firearm is simply that - how many rounds are fired per press of the trigger.
Among other things, I have an actual Gatling gun - those are completely legal and are not classified as machine guns, or licensed in any funny way. Because each round requires an independent action. If I were to attach the crank handle to an electric motor, and wire it to an on-off switch, that would be different - it would then be a fully-automatic weapon, and I'd have committed several serious federal and state offenses in the construction of it. (People don't use actual Gatling guns in crimes often, because they weigh hundreds of pounds and cost ~$30k or more, plus the ammunition costs to fire it are insane. And cleaning it after you use it takes hours.)
There are so many problems in today's world. As I've said before, I think a big problem (besides some people being inherently evil) is our constitution and Bill of Rights. I can hear some of you screaming already. These things were written in a totally different world. In today's world, it lets the rights of the individual outway the health of the nation......the good of the whole.
This gun issue is just insane. Gun owners freak out when there's talk of any changes........even if it would do good....because they, personally don't want to give anything up.
And we treat criminals too kindly. We can't continue to be kind and fair and nice and keep all the same rules, if we want to see any difference in this country in the future. We've become the "me" country and have a hard time even imagining giving up anything at all......even if it would save lives.
There are many good things about this country, but damn........it's really starting to disappoint me.
Williamsmith
10-3-17, 4:40pm
Many good things about this country, I agree. Two of the best are the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Unless you think our current elder statesmen and women are capable of creating a better set of documents......you know , the same people who can’t seem to get anything accomplished now. So we better just go with what brung us here. Unless you want The Don to give it a go. I’m sure he would Make the Constitution Great Again and tweet out a big Bill of Rights.
As I've said before, I think a big problem (besides some people being inherently evil) is our constitution and Bill of Rights. I can hear some of you screaming already.
Two thoughts, from a man who said it well:
"The liberties of our Country, the freedom of our civil constitution are worth defending at all hazards: And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair Inheritance from our worthy Ancestors: They purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood; and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle; or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men. Of the latter we are in most danger at present: Let us therefore be aware of it. Let us contemplate our forefathers and posterity; and resolve to maintain the rights bequeath'd to us from the former, for the sake of the latter."
And
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Samuel_Adams#/media/File:Independence_Hall_Tower.JPG
Ultralight
10-3-17, 5:36pm
You all are probably right. Nothing can be done. These sorts of mass shootings will just continue to be the norm. Hey, it is just American culture or human nature or both.
I guess the best I can do is increase my situational awareness and just hope it never happens to me.
The shooter had a heavy gambling addiction. I wonder if anyone will dare suggest to Las Vegas that gambling rather than guns should be banned.
But the U.S. has changed drastically. Something is obviously not working. Something needs to change. How can we "settle" for these massacres and not be driven to change something? Our inaction will be our downfall. Accepting these things as just the way it has to be........well......then I might want to move. It's shameful. Did anyone watch Jimmy Kimmel's opening last night? He's right on. We do everything possible to protect our country against other countries........but why won't we do something for us in these cases? He's from LV and he talked about the 2 horrible hotel fires that killed a few people. They figured out how to keep it from happening again, made the changes, and there's been no fires since. So why can't we fix this??.........or at least TRY.
WilliamSmith.........you're right.........no way do I want Trump figuring anything out!
The shooter had a heavy gambling addiction. I wonder if anyone will dare suggest to Las Vegas that gambling rather than guns should be banned.
Well, my opinion is that LV shouldn't even be there........Yes, maybe a little town in the middle of the desert, but not what's there now.
It's not that people are not doing anything as much as figuring out how to prevent these things. I don't think anyone knows. Gun control is an easy default reaction, but back when assault weapons were banned it didn't seem to help. There are some smaller things like magazine capacity that and background checks that may or may not help, but it will mostly just make things a little more difficult. My opinion is that gun control is too late. Mental health issues? Maybe, but how do you fix that? Again, maybe a head start on people showing some danger to themselves or others, but many others will slip through any screening.
What has been done is more reactive than proactive, but it's significant. The training of first responders, teachers, hospital staff, and law enforcement I would suspect has saved many lives. I can think of a few examples where every day citizens being alert to suspicious behaviors has prevented similar events. Maybe added security at airports and other public events has helped. Regarding Jimmy Kimmel's emotional presentation, I can agree, but a lot of the things aimed at international terrorism can be a catch all for domestic acts, too.
Personal opinion, I think toning down hatred and violence is part of the answer. It's in politics and race, but also in popular videos and games and worries about health care. It's in the greed of financial institutions that make dangerous personal information public and angry radio commentators. It seems like it is part of our social fabric. People just seem angry these days.
That's about the best I can think of on a hard problem.
I think last time one of these happened, I suggested folks here at the very least learn some basic first aid of the sort useful for mass casualty situations: shootings, car accidents, plane crashes, bombs set off during marathons, and so on. I think I mentioned one of my frequent firefighting partners was running the Boston Marathon when the bombs went off, and his training helped.
It's not rocket science.
I wonder how many people here have improved their first aid skills over the past year? And/or are current on their CPR certification?
I wonder how many people here have improved their first aid skills over the past year? And/or are current on their CPR certification?
Never had taken CPR or first aid, but I recently took a combined first aid/CPR/AED/O2 administrator class. It was a prerequisite for the Rescue Diver class I took last week.
Never had taken CPR or first aid, but I recently took a combined first aid/CPR/AED/O2 administrator class. It was a prerequisite for the Rescue Diver class I took last week.
That's rock star! (We have a shortage of rescue divers/rescue swimmers here, and a whole lot of ocean and river to cover :-( )
That's rock star! (We have a shortage of rescue divers/rescue swimmers here, and a whole lot of ocean and river to cover :-( )
Bae, this was not a public safety rescue diver class. It's the recreational rescue diver class for lay folk. I was the only one in the class who was not going on to become a dive master.
We learned how to do swimming rescues. I had to jump into water 50ft deep, with only mask and fins on. I did have a new 3mm wetsuit that was incredibly buoyant (I'm naturally floaty anyway). I'm not a strong swimmer, but I'd forgotten I'm a speed demon with fins on. I did fine. Big confidence builder.
We also had to bring up an "unconscious" diver from 20ft deep, swim them in to the beach at the quarry while stripping their gear AND mine, while giving rescue breaths. Once you got into chest deep water, you took off your fins, and flipped them onto your back for the backpack carry. I did this multiple times with guys 6" taller than my 5'5" and many pounds heavier. One guy and I chair carried our 6'4", 300 lb instructor, but not very far!
It was a fun class! I took it with 3 friends/dive buddies!
I'm a nurse in a safety net hospital. We're always training and planning. I'm always hoping that it's wasted training in that I never need to use it.
Ultralight
10-4-17, 7:31am
I think last time one of these happened, I suggested folks here at the very least learn some basic first aid of the sort useful for mass casualty situations: shootings, car accidents, plane crashes, bombs set off during marathons, and so on. I think I mentioned one of my frequent firefighting partners was running the Boston Marathon when the bombs went off, and his training helped.
It's not rocket science.
I wonder how many people here have improved their first aid skills over the past year? And/or are current on their CPR certification?
But how does one prevent these shootings from happening?
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of CPR.
But how does one prevent these shootings from happening?
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of CPR.
So far the only red flag I've seen presented in this was recent purchases of weapons.
Businesses have to report large transactions of money (this person I read triggered this numerous times gambling) - why not for large weapons purchases?
But the U.S. has changed drastically. Something is obviously not working. Something needs to change. How can we "settle" for these massacres and not be driven to change something? Our inaction will be our downfall. Accepting these things as just the way it has to be........well......then I might want to move. It's shameful. Did anyone watch Jimmy Kimmel's opening last night? He's right on. We do everything possible to protect our country against other countries........but why won't we do something for us in these cases? He's from LV and he talked about the 2 horrible hotel fires that killed a few people. They figured out how to keep it from happening again, made the changes, and there's been no fires since. So why can't we fix this??.........or at least TRY.
WilliamSmith.........you're right.........no way do I want Trump figuring anything out!
I understand. It's important. Jimmy Kimmel wept. But empathy isn't a policy. Before we toss out that old powdered-wig constitution and unleash the commissars "to at least TRY", what specifically would you do? If we're going to trade some old-timey liberties for better protection from each other, I would like some idea of what it would look like and whether it would be likely to work.
But how does one prevent these shootings from happening?
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of CPR.
The default position is always gun control, which is the wrong answer.
Food for thought: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-used-to-think-gun-control-was-the-answer-my-research-told-me-otherwise/2017/10/03/d33edca6-a851-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html?utm_term=.5ee8a0672a36
Perhaps we could start by actually researching the problem. Gaining knowledge is usually a pretty good place to start before making any changes. After all, if 58 people at the concert died and another 500 were sickened, all by food poisoning we'd be looking for the cause to prevent it from happening again. Or if it'd been a massive fire at the Mandalay Bay that killed 58 and injured hundreds we'd be looking at what went wrong with our fire safety rules. But the main governmental research organization with the goal of keeping people healthy doesn't do that when it comes to guns killing people.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-gun-research-funding-20160614-snap-story.html
The consequence is that we’re flying blind on gun violence. Rosenberg and other experts list four topics on which research is crucial. First is the scale of the problem — how many people are shot, is the number rising or falling, who gets shot, under what circumstances, and with what weapons? Second, what are the causes? “What leads people to shoot other people or kill themselves?” Rosenberg asked. (Two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides, he said.)
Third is learning what works to prevent gun violence, and fourth is figuring out how to translate these findings into policy. Legislators across the country have enacted laws allowing open-carry of firearms on the street or in public places, or authorizing teachers to carry arms in the classroom or on campus, “with no idea whether that would result in more people being killed or more lives being saved,” Rosenberg said.
Legislators across the country have enacted laws allowing open-carry of firearms on the street or in public places, or authorizing teachers to carry arms in the classroom or on campus, “with no idea whether that would result in more people being killed or more lives being saved,” Rosenberg said.
It's actually pretty easy to look at jurisdictions with open carry or easy concealed carry provisions and compare historical averages. The problem is, that doesn't provide the preferred narrative.
iris lilies
10-4-17, 11:23am
Perhaps we could start by actually researching the problem. Gaining knowledge is usually a pretty good place to start before making any changes. After all, if 58 people at the concert died and another 500 were sickened, all by food poisoning we'd be looking for the cause to prevent it from happening again. Or if it'd been a massive fire at the Mandalay Bay that killed 58 and injured hundreds we'd be looking at what went wrong with our fire safety rules. But the main governmental research organization with the goal of keeping people healthy doesn't do that when it comes to guns killing people.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-gun-research-funding-20160614-snap-story.html
The consequence is that we’re flying blind on gun violence. Rosenberg and other experts list four topics on which research is crucial. First is the scale of the problem — how many people are shot, is the number rising or falling, who gets shot, under what circumstances, and with what weapons? Second, what are the causes? “What leads people to shoot other people or kill themselves?” Rosenberg asked. (Two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides, he said.)
Third is learning what works to prevent gun violence, and fourth is figuring out how to translate these findings into policy. Legislators across the country have enacted laws allowing open-carry of firearms on the street or in public places, or authorizing teachers to carry arms in the classroom or on campus, “with no idea whether that would result in more people being killed or more lives being saved,” Rosenberg said.
Statistics on deaths are coming from somewhere, if not the CDC. But it looks like you, jp1, will be funding gun death research via University of California, so good for you.
After millions are spent, ya'll will find that, as you mentioned, a great majority of gun deaths are suicide by the owner's own hand.
The next largest group of gun deaths according to Alan's linked article (and common sense tells us this) is thugs killing thugs. Mostly inner city thugs, mostly young African American men.
Will you actually take all guns away from this group? How will that happen? Color me skeptical.
I can assure you that there is plenty of "research" on gun buy back programs which have been vaunted over the past two days, referencing the Australian model. We have seen multiple buy back programs here in St. Louis, the murder capital of the U.S. We are still the murder capital of the U.S. Guess that doesnt work although itmsure is a good way to spend taxpayer dollars and make people feel good.
It's actually pretty easy to look at jurisdictions with open carry or easy concealed carry provisions and compare historical averages. The problem is, that doesn't provide the preferred narrative.
Yes, lets do that.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-ol-patt-morrison-asks-john-donohue-guns-20170802-htmlstory.html
Teacher Terry
10-4-17, 12:13pm
Violent crime up 10-15% in open carry states. Rarely does someone carrying a gun stop a shooter. It is usually an unarmed person. Great article/study.
Violent crime up 10-15% in open carry states.
That's not what he said. His claim is that while crime decreased in Texas during the period studied, it would have been 10-15% lower had open carry not been enacted based on his "synthetic control analysis"..
Yes, lets do that.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-ol-patt-morrison-asks-john-donohue-guns-20170802-htmlstory.html
So, using "synthetic" data to simulate what may have happened if particular states had not adopted open carry laws, the decline in violent crime is reported to be less dramatic than it might have been, thereby equaling a 10-15% increase in violent crime.
Got it!
catherine
10-4-17, 12:56pm
Is gun ownership similar to people buying bigger and bigger cars so they can feel "safe"?
In other words, is the open carry law protecting us, or making us. more vulnerable? Is it truth or illusion that tells us that the more guns a community has the safer its citizens are? Why are the police in many countries unarmed for the most part?
I might consider gun ownership if I were single and felt unsafe in my community, but honestly, I would implement other security measures first, like a big dog or ADT. I would feel LESS safe, frankly, with a gun in my home because of the possibility of accidental discharge, or it being used against me.
People have their own reasons for keeping guns, and that's fine. Given that the killer in Vegas had no record nor any reason to prohibit him legally from gun ownership, it probably couldn't have been avoided from a legal standpoint. But bigger questions remain.
But how does one prevent these shootings from happening?
I was simply offering up a set of skills that can be life-saving in shooting events, and other bad events, until these things stop happening.
You can sit back and wait, of course, but that's just foolish. With a small amount of effort, you can be prepared to help out your fellow man in troublesome circumstances. Looking at the response of bystanders at the concert, or at the marathon, a lot of people were saved because some folks didn't stand around waiting, but jumped in to do something useful.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of CPR.
The next time I'm performing CPR on a guy, I'll be sure and step back and say "dude, you shouldn't have had so many cheeseburgers" - that'll help.
I was simply offering up a set of skills that can be life-saving in shooting events, and other bad events, until these things stop happening.
You can sit back and wait, of course, but that's just foolish. With a small amount of effort, you can be prepared to help out your fellow man in troublesome circumstances. Looking at the response of bystanders at the concert, or at the marathon, a lot of people were saved because some folks didn't stand around waiting, but jumped in to do something useful.
The next time I'm performing CPR on a guy, I'll be sure and step back and say "dude, you shouldn't have had so many cheeseburgers" - that'll help.
It's been inspirational to see exactly how people helped--people who had previously served in the military seemed most able to figure out what to do quickly (not surprisingly). There was one guy who served in Afghanistan (I think) and he actually commandeered a truck that was just sitting there that happened to have keys in it and he and his gf quickly transported 20-30 people to the hospital. Wow.
Learning CPR has been on my list since my DH swallowed a cherry tomato whole in my son's kitchen and nearly lost consciousness. I just stood there shouting in a panic at my son to "Do the Heimlich!!!" but my son could only try to mimic what he had seen on TV. Thankfully all ended well, but it showed me just how quickly things can happen.
It's mystifying to me that our culture glorifies self-reliance and personal "freedom" to such an extent that we disregard its oftentimes harm to the whole of us. In case we haven't noticed, humans aren't very good at regulating themselves and probably never will be.
So, using "synthetic" data to simulate what may have happened if particular states had not adopted open carry laws, the decline in violent crime is reported to be less dramatic than it might have been, thereby equaling a 10-15% increase in violent crime.
Got it!
He's comparing apples to "synthetic apples" grown from orchards in his synthetic states. I don't know that it's necessarily an invalid analysis, but it's the sort of thing that will be misinterpreted.
My understanding was that over the longish term we have increased the number of guns in circulation while gun-related deaths have declined. I have nothing against research of the non-tendentious variety.
He's comparing apples to "synthetic apples" grown from orchards in his synthetic states. I don't know that it's necessarily an invalid analysis, but it's the sort of thing that will be misinterpreted.
Or a least put into scare quotes to make it seem invalid without actually discussing whether the approach is valid or not.
iris lilies
10-4-17, 2:59pm
It's been inspirational to see exactly how people helped--people who had previously served in the military seemed most able to figure out what to do quickly (not surprisingly). There was one guy who served in Afghanistan (I think) and he actually commandeered a truck that was just sitting there that happened to have keys in it and he and his gf quickly transported 20-30 people to the hospital. Wow.
Learning CPR has been on my list since my DH swallowed a cherry tomato whole in my son's kitchen and nearly lost consciousness. I just stood there shouting in a panic at my son to "Do the Heimlich!!!" but my son could only try to mimic what he had seen on TV. Thankfully all ended well, but it showed me just how quickly things can happen.
Three days ago I sat with our friend, a physician, at a dim sum restaurant. An old guy stood up at a table behind us, and couldn't breathe. People with him were trying the Heimleich maneuver on him with no luck, but she calmly walked over, pumped the guy a few times, and got him breathing again. He sat down and finished his meal.
I have doubt that I could be successful at that.
He's comparing apples to "synthetic apples" grown from orchards in his synthetic states. I don't know that it's necessarily an invalid analysis, but it's the sort of thing that will be misinterpreted.
It reminds me of budget talks (back when the government used to do annual budgets) whenever Republicans were in power. A 3% increase in any area would be reported as a 7% cut as the expectation was that government should grow by 10% annually.
Or a least put into scare quotes to make it seem invalid without actually discussing whether the approach is valid or not.
Morrison put quotes around "synthetic states" in his article. I didn't find it particularly scary.
Several years ago I was in the grocery store when an older fellow collapsed on the floor. When I got over to him a circle of maybe ten people had gather around him and were just looking. He was pasty white, but breathing. The EMTs showed up fairly quickly and hauled him off. I decided then to go through CPR/first aid training. I did it through work and actually got bonus points for getting a whole class full of co-workers to go. I've been re-certified twice, but it's been a while now. It's good training that everyone should have. I think I could handle some very basic CPR/first aid, but should probably have a review and certification.
Teacher Terry
10-4-17, 4:28pm
My sister was choking on a piece of hard candy and no one knew what to do except my Aunt. She had never practiced but saw it on TV. Luckily she was successful.
It's mystifying to me that our culture glorifies self-reliance and personal "freedom" to such an extent that we disregard its oftentimes harm to the whole of us. In case we haven't noticed, humans aren't very good at regulating themselves and probably never will be.
Good point that someone elsewhere on the net said also - What about our right not to be victims of a crazed shooter?
Starbucks employees are reporting the shooter was verbally abusive to his girlfriend. I wonder what information if any about him we may learn from his ex wives. There may have been red flags about him, but not the ones like a criminal record or mental health hospital admission, that people are used to looking at.
His mother is still alive and would have a lot of insight I would think.
I'd like to know how we went from "a well-regulated militia" to every crank and malcontent being able to bear arms. Oh yea...the NRA...
Although, unlike gun "enthusiasts," I don't have inside knowledge of what the Founding Fathers were thinking, I don't imagine they had rosy fantasies about drug-impaired, lightly-wrapped grudge holders being able to buy unlimited military-styled weaponry. And as someone pointed out, when the 2nd amendment was written, a marksman could shoot about one round a minute. But I guess we should be relieved that Congress shelved their plan to put silencers and armor-piercing bullets on the fast track to Wal-Mart shelves.
When the Second Amendment was written, you could own cannon-armed ships capable of reducing coastal cities to rubble, the strategic weaponry of the day. Our naval strategy was based on this well into the 1800s, it's why we refused to sign one of the various important Treaties of Paris.
I'd like to know how we went from "a well-regulated militia" to every crank and malcontent being able to bear arms. Oh yea...the NRA...
Because back in the day they were all expected to be part of the militia.
Recently I've been reading a book, Strange Contagion, about a high school in Palo Alto that had an epidemic of student suicides. Among other things the author of the book notes different groups of people's levels of tolerance to assorted things such as gun violence. In Canada the tolerance to campus massacres was low. 14 students killed at the U of Montreal 30 years ago and Canadian society made the decision to institute assorted gun controls to prevent future similar occurences. No mass shootings on campuses since then because a society very similar to ours had a decidedly lower tolerance to gun violence that translated into the will to actually try to solve the problem. Sadly we as a society lack that will. Because freedom... So we get what we deserve. A steady stream of dead people because super smart people like bae can't see a solution beyond "better first aid". And anyone that suggests looking at research that points to a better solution gets obfuscating responses that deflect away from a serious conversation. Because they don't want a conversation. If they did they'd look seriously at the study I posted and offer more than snappy sarcastic responses to it and actually try to poke holes in the methodology. But I won't hold my breath in expectation. At the end of the day I sadly think I agree with UL. Nothing is going to change anytime soon because half of the country thinks that the way things are are perfectly fine.
Chicken lady
10-5-17, 8:01am
Talking to my daughter this morning and she says her generation (millennials) just pretty much take this stuff in stride - I could be killed on the highway driving to work, I could be killed if I go to this concert/mall/movie... probably won’t be, on with my life.
Ultralight
10-5-17, 9:05am
Talking to my daughter this morning and she says her generation (millennials) just pretty much take this stuff in stride - I could be killed on the highway driving to work, I could be killed if I go to this concert/mall/movie... probably won’t be, on with my life.
That is a very Israeli way to look at this.
Talking to my daughter this morning and she says her generation (millennials) just pretty much take this stuff in stride - I could be killed on the highway driving to work, I could be killed if I go to this concert/mall/movie... probably won’t be, on with my life.
If this trend is true, she's probably safer than you were twenty years ago.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLOYpYiXoAAZZP0.jpg
Chicken lady
10-5-17, 9:34am
No, because 20 years ago I lived in a semi-rural suburb and did not have firearms in my house, and she lives in a “mixed use” area between city and suburbs and works in the city - there have been driveby’s and bar shootings within a few miles/blocks of her home and work. Also her father in law hears God literally speaking to him and has started his own church. (None of which relates to your chart - lies, damn lies, and statistics....)
In the late '60's California proposed a ban on open carry. The Black Panthers were opposed to this and claimed the armed police state had singled the black community out and was violating due process of law. The police were apparently breaking down doors without warrants and occasionally shooting the occupants among other things. The Panthers claimed the need for arms for self protection. If this were indeed the case and more than a few isolated incidents, I could could see open carry as a proper exercise of the second amendment. Some of it was probably true.
Interesting, at the time the NRA supported the movement to restrict open carry (the California Mulford Act). So maybe it all depends on who has the guns.
Williamsmith
10-5-17, 10:09am
In the late '60's California proposed a ban on open carry. The Black Panthers were opposed to this and claimed the armed police state had singled the black community out and was violating due process of law. The police were apparently breaking down doors without warrants and occasionally shooting the occupants among other things. The Panthers claimed the need for arms for self protection. If this were indeed the case and more than a few isolated incidents, I could could see open carry as a proper exercise of the second amendment. Some of it was probably true.
Interesting, at the time the NRA supported the movement to restrict open carry (the California Mulford Act). So maybe it all depends on who has the guns.
It is no doubt true that like the War on Drugs, the War on Guns would be prosecuted against the black community without mercy. Increased gun laws will undoubtly cause a need for more jail cells. Filled with more African Americans. It is fact, that if you are African American you are more likely to be murdered by a gun toting neighborhood resident than any other segment of society.
The media is pointing this incident in the direction of the wrong road. The real failure is law enforcement intelligence. This person did not accumulate these guns in a vacuum. BATF and federal intelligence agencies both covert and overt constantly monitor situations of purchases and black market deals. I find it incredible that this man was not on some ones radar. I don’t find it unusual that no one would admit it after the carnage he unleashed. It would not be a surprise to learn that he was part of a small group of similar minded nutjobs.
The real failure is law enforcement intelligence. This person did not accumulate these guns in a vacuum. BATF and federal intelligence agencies both covert and overt constantly monitor situations of purchases and black market deals. I find it incredible that this man was not on some ones radar. I don’t find it unusual that no one would admit it after the carnage he unleashed. It would not be a surprise to learn that he was part of a small group of similar minded nutjobs.
I found myself thinking, didn't the maid go into the room and see a lot of guns? Of course, I am not suggesting it's the maid's duty to fend off a serial killer, but why didn't someone see smething in the room itself?
WS, yes, you would certainly think the ATF would have an algorithm in their gun registration system that would raise a big flag with the purchase of 20 or more like 40 or more assault type rifles by the same person. This guy was a different breed of criminal or terrorist. Sophisticated, well planned, intelligent, and quite deadly. I don't know if he had links to a small similar minded group, but he certainly raised the bar for copy cat attacks and I'd expect we now have a higher risk for similar acts from other people.
iris lilies
10-5-17, 10:35am
In the late '60's California proposed a ban on open carry. The Black Panthers were opposed to this and claimed the armed police state had singled the black community out and was violating due process of law. The police were apparently breaking down doors without warrants and occasionally shooting the occupants among other things. The Panthers claimed the need for arms for self protection. If this were indeed the case and more than a few isolated incidents, I could could see open carry as a proper exercise of the second amendment. Some of it was probably true.
Interesting, at the time the NRA supported the movement to restrict open carry (the California Mulford Act). So maybe it all depends on who has the guns.
I was just this week thinking about gun control from a racial politics point of view, as I am i doctrinated here to do. I was thinking that the African American community could claim disproportionate targeting in gun restriction in the scenario you describe, protection from renegade cops.
I found myself thinking, didn't the maid go into the room and see a lot of guns? Of course, I am not suggesting it's the maid's duty to fend off a serial killer, but why didn't someone see smething in the room itself?
It's easy to hang the "do not disturb" tag on the door. I've spent as much as a week with that hanging on a hotel door (I don't like the sheets or towels changed daily because the chemicals give me hives). It's easy to notice when the hotel cleaning cart is in the hall and meet the maid and say "all I need today is a shampoo and to trade out these washcloths", hand her a nice tip and she/he is thinking good thoughts because you just saved them 10-20 minutes.
Teacher Terry
10-5-17, 1:02pm
Yes he should have been on someone's radar buying all those weapons. I am sure he hid them from the maid or did not let her in. Europe and Canada have basically solved the gun violence problem and we should too. When is enough well enough? But if it wasn't when the little kids got killed it won't be now. In Europe sure you can kill people with knives but you won't get many before they get you. Even the people that survived will be scarred for life. Some will have PTSD, lose jobs, marriages etc all from the residual effects of this horrible incident. Not everyone will suffer in this way but many will.
Several years ago I was in the grocery store when an older fellow collapsed on the floor. When I got over to him a circle of maybe ten people had gather around him and were just looking. He was pasty white, but breathing. The EMTs showed up fairly quickly and hauled him off. I decided then to go through CPR/first aid training. I did it through work and actually got bonus points for getting a whole class full of co-workers to go. I've been re-certified twice, but it's been a while now. It's good training that everyone should have. I think I could handle some very basic CPR/first aid, but should probably have a review and certification.
I have it always current in my work, Never needed the CPR portion but use the first aid over the years often. It is amazing how many people don't have common sense about first aid situations so I recommend that more people take it. When I worked at Target they called me over for anything after I handled the staff that caught the tip of their finger in the meat slicer. She kept arguing as she turned more and more pale and started to go into shock. The manager tried to argue with me that I didn't need to do anything like apply a lot of pressure, have her sit down and hold her hand up above her head. Later he did come back and talk to me and I recommended he take a course. The advantage of being that bossy middle aged lady.
There was a case a few years back where a fellow was convicted of "constructive possession" because he had a piece of string and an AR-15. Probably he shouldn't have filmed it in use.
The "crude manual methods" work just as well as that overpriced stock, which is just a toy to part idiot shooters from their money.
The reason it isn't a "machine gun" involves technicalities of the law - basically the trigger is being independently pressed for each round fired. The basic legal difference between a fully-automatic firearm and a semi-automatic firearm is simply that - how many rounds are fired per press of the trigger.
I have the feeling that commercial bump stocks may be a thing of the past.
he National Rifle Association has called for "additional regulations" on bump-stocks, a rapid fire device used by the Las Vegas massacre gunman.
The group said: "Devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations."
Republicans have said they would consider banning the tool, despite years of resisting any gun control.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41519815
Williamsmith
10-5-17, 3:52pm
I have the feeling that commercial bump stocks may be a thing of the past.
he National Rifle Association has called for "additional regulations" on bump-stocks, a rapid fire device used by the Las Vegas massacre gunman.
The group said: "Devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations."
Republicans have said they would consider banning the tool, despite years of resisting any gun control.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41519815
If this is correct, which it appears, then the NRA has done a quick evaluation....seen some real problems with defending an accessory and not a firearm and rightly realized that the emotional reaction to the carnage could not be withstood. And I would venture a guess that the Oval Office told them they would not defend it either nor will most of the heads of in law enforcement. It is a losing scenario for gun advocates since the only thing this attachment does is make automatic fire facsimile possible. The effectiveness of such a law notwithstanding.
But they also shrewdly married it to the future advancement of the right to carry reciprocity which is well worth the trade off. A plastic bump stock that doesn’t benefit the firearms industry one bit for the expansion of gun owners Rights is a no brainer. Dems may be so eager to claim a victory that they would champion their “fight” against the evil gun lobby while rolling over. Or they might just have something up their sleeve.
Well, IMO, “bump stocks” are a basically useless accessory (unless “reducing accuracy tremendously” is a use) and cause safety issues. Most of the ranges I use do not allow them.
But you can’t have my Gatling gun.
A steady stream of dead people because super smart people like bae can't see a solution beyond "better first aid".
1) I did not propose "better first aid" as a solution. Or offer it as the best solution. So that's a misrepresentation on your part.
2) In the past dozen "conversations" on this on these forums, I have proposed measures that might have some effect. Since my proposals generally don't focus on "banning the scary firearms feature of the month", they aren't often popular...
But here: http://www.bleedingcontrol.org/
Background:
Motivated by the 2012 tragedy in Sandy Hook and multiple tragedies that have occurred in the ensuing years, what has become known as the Hartford Consensus was convened to bring together leaders from law enforcement, the federal government, and the medical community to improve survivability from manmade or natural mass casualty events. The resulting injuries from these events generally present with severe bleeding which, if left unattended, can result in death. The participants of the Hartford Consensus concluded that by providing first responders (law enforcement) and civilian bystanders the skills and basic tools to stop uncontrolled bleeding in an emergency situation, lives would be saved. The first responder program has received very good response and is widely being used across the country.
The next step is to focus on needs of civilian bystanders.
Need:
Civilians need basic training in Bleeding Control principles so they are able to provide immediate, frontline aid until first responders are able to take over care of an injured person. Due to many situations, there may be a delay between the time of injury and the time a first responder is on the scene. Without civilian intervention in these circumstances, preventable deaths will occur.
Mission/Objective:
The American College of Surgeons Committee on Trauma is leading the effort to save lives by teaching the civilian population to provide vital initial response to stop uncontrolled bleeding in emergency situations. This will be accomplished by the development of a comprehensive and sustainable bleeding control education and information program targeted to civilians that will inform, educate and empower the 300+million citizens of the United States.
https://orcasissues.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Poster-Stop-the-Bleed-1.jpg
Ultralight
10-5-17, 4:59pm
Check out this article from The Onion. It really zings!
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-36131
African American community could claim disproportionate targeting in gun restriction in the scenario you describe, protection from renegade cops.
It didn't work out that way for Philando Castile.
Williamsmith
10-5-17, 7:14pm
It didn't work out that way for Philando Castile.
In the tragic case of Philando Castile, the “cop” was not a renegade ....just poorly trained and ill prepared for duty. He was found not guilty and acquitted of all charges by a jury which seated two African Americans. The jury could not based on the law find the officer culpable beyond a reasonable doubt. It was horrible but not a racially motivated hate crime.
ToomuchStuff
10-6-17, 1:12am
I've stayed out of the thread both due to time issues this week (someone out of work this week due to surgery, been getting OT), as well as my general belief this is more of a vent thread, then a lets actually do something logical. (knee jerk reaction similar to the patriot bill, where people didn't think what they were actually allowing)
On another forum, a member there, has posted some account from his spouse who was at the concert. (they are a gun owning family) The shots were hitting close enough to some microphone, that they were hearing the shots from the speakers at the concert, causing confusion as to the directionality of the shooter. A noise suppressor wouldn't have made any difference to that and I don't know that we will ever know if he was smart enough to have figured that into his plan. Those that think it makes a gun completely silent, have watched enough tv, that they might also ban pillows.
The whole bumpfire stock thing, is nothing but a feel good measure, to stop something that separates a fool from his money. (one that Obama administration signed off on, when the BATF determined they were legal, which from what I read, is what the NRA is calling for, another review)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfwFP_RwTQ
Part 1
ToomuchStuff
10-6-17, 1:12am
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7l1v8_dMuk
ToomuchStuff
10-6-17, 1:13am
part 3
Bump fire stock verses great shooter with standard AR style stock (the point here is the bump fire wasn't as accurate, but not that much faster)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddPTyoV-Irc
So office supplies, sleeping supplies, auto parts (suppressors), will all need banning.
Ultra, how often do you drive your vehicle?
How about the vehicles going into crowds, or being used as car bombs (even here, in OK, or the WTC pre 911). Heck, lets just take a gallon of gas from your car:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/jealous-ex-boyfriend-fury-killed-87-happy-land-fire-20-years-article-1.173625
More wounded in this attack, more killed in that attack.
How about we wait until the investigation of the sites is complete and have all the facts before we "react" and then act accordingly?
You’ll want to ban this book too, and lock up everybody who has been trained to use it.
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/ImageCollections/Images/ERG2016_Cover_English.png
Williamsmith
10-6-17, 4:08am
Any politician who seems to want to claim second amendment protect for bump fire stocks will be run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered. The President is a populist, not an idealog. This thing will go to the desk of the head of the BATF where some “after further consideration” explanation will be issued to placed the little plastic doodad in violation of the guidance on firearm alterations. In practice, it will do nothing to make concert going a safer form of leisure if a nutjob wants to massacre people.
But it is a brilliant move to shield politicians and take the focus off the firearm and ammunition. It will make everyone feel better about it. Still, the bump stock is only buying time. The real attacks on the second amendment will come later but by that time the NRA will have fortified their defenses, time will have passed and enough of the public will return to stand with them. Look for proposed regulations on the sale of ammunition and magazine capacities again. Another big round of arguing to follow. We live in a nation infatuated with firearms.
TMS, the Republicans are rushing, before the investigation is complete, so they can get credit for some legislation lest Trump partner with the Democrats on Capitol Hill again and beat them to it.
I suspect banning bump stocks will be a token move to take a little pressure off other gun control issues. A smart move for Republicans. Politicians look like there are doing something. If what Bae says is true, that they are mostly a cheap toy to part idiots from their money, it's no big deal for the gun people. Everyone wins. Whether anything significant gets done is debatable. Some of the videos and comments refer to poor accuracy, but at 500 yards shooting into an are the size of football fields, that has little importance.
Hopefully Gatling Guns for collectors will be grandfathered in somehow. They do have an analogous firing mechanism. I have a country friend who has a fairly large canon that shoots juice can sized projectiles. It's popular at some weddings, fourth of July, etc. So I guess there are still canons.
There is a lot of figure twisting when it comes to guns and mass shootings. It's become politicized. There was a day before Reagan when the NRA actually supported some gun controls. This is the article I tend to believe (six things to know about mass shootings in America), but everyone has their favorite information source that probably includes Brietbart .
https://theconversation.com/six-things-to-know-about-mass-shootings-in-america-48934
Williamsmith
10-6-17, 8:40am
Check out this article from The Onion. It really zings!
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-36131
What do you believe the point of attributing quotes to fictional people and satirizing mass shootings to be?
Since first responders have been mentioned a few times in the discussion, there is a Wash Post article today reporting on the new methods they used in Vegas that saved many lives. There are a lot of everyday heroes in our country!
Teacher Terry
10-6-17, 1:09pm
If people only had guns that could fire 1 shot at a time then these mass killings would not be occurring. If you hunt you would still be able to, etc. No one wants to seem to look at how guns have evolved and the average citizen has no need for one to be semi-automatic, automatic, etc. I also don't need someone to do an exhaustive explanation of the different types of guns like has been done in the past. This is not that hard of a problem to control. The problem is that the NRA is so rich and powerful and so much $ is made off of gun sales.
The problem is that the NRA is so rich and powerful and so much $ is made off of gun sales.
Let's see your data on that.
This is not that hard of a problem to control.
With the machine tools in my garage, I can build an AR-15 in an afternoon. But I don't have particularly good tools, it's easier than that and requires no skill with some of the other options out there:
You can, for not much of an investment. get a computer-controlled milling machine that will produce the relevant bits for AR-15s without skill needed:
https://ghostgunner.net/
But that's if you want a traditional metal firearm. You can easily 3D print quite a few firearms, and again, without much investment or skill:
http://www.printedfirearm.com/category/receiverslowers/
Interestingly, some firearms receivers can also simply be carved out of wood, or glued together from laminated cutouts.
And that's if you want a nice AR-15. If you want to build an AK-47 at home, you can basically make one with a hammer and some rocks.
For some sound reasons, the AR-15 platform is the top-selling rifle in America, and has been for some years. There are ~10 million of them out there. It's not going to be easy to put that horse back in the barn.
Williamsmith
10-6-17, 2:19pm
To enact further gun legislation after we already have a gratuitously armed society seems to me to be like getting a foot of water in your house first and then throwing sandbags out the front door expecting it to keep more water from pouring in.
The only proven method to stem the tide has been house to house search and seizure operations followed by capital punishment for unbelievers. What other country do you know owns half the worlds complement of guns but makes up only 3% of the population? That’s why other countries solutions can’t work here.
To suggest less is like shooting a bottle rocket at the moon and calling it a space program.
With the machine tools in my garage, I can build an AR-15 in an afternoon. But I don't have particularly good tools, it's easier than that and requires no skill with some of the other options out there:
You can, for not much of an investment. get a computer-controlled milling machine that will produce the relevant bits for AR-15s without skill needed:
https://ghostgunner.net/
But that's if you want a traditional metal firearm. You can easily 3D print quite a few firearms, and again, without much investment or skill:
http://www.printedfirearm.com/category/receiverslowers/
Interestingly, some firearms receivers can also simply be carved out of wood, or glued together from laminated cutouts.
And that's if you want a nice AR-15. If you want to build an AK-47 at home, you can basically make one with a hammer and some rocks.
For some sound reasons, the AR-15 platform is the top-selling rifle in America, and has been for some years. There are ~10 million of them out there. It's not going to be easy to put that horse back in the barn.
If it were that easy, wouldn't we be reading about the country being flooded with untraceable homemade firearms? Or are factory made pieces simply cheaper and easier to obtain?
If it were that easy, wouldn't we be reading about the country being flooded with untraceable homemade firearms? Or are factory made pieces simply cheaper and easier to obtain?
Because most firearms, even "untraceable homemade" ones, don't get used in crime, so it doesn't show up on the radar much?
And why bother now, except for fun, when there are simpler options, like going to WalMart? Where you get a warranty even.
I do know there's a booming business in 80%-complete receivers, which are not legally firearms, and which require generally drilling a couple of holes and 5 minutes with a file to complete. Manufacturing for home use like that is perfectly legal under Federal law, if you follow a few simple guidelines.
An already-manufactured AR-15 lower receiver is quite inexpensive now as well, so someone who didn't want to spend a couple hours dorking around making one might just buy one - here's some examples from one of the main parts suppliers:
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/index.htm
Notice that for ~$50 you can get something that'll take you mere minutes to complete. The rest of the assembly is cookbook after that - I've built 4-5 this way so I could get exactly the rifle I wanted, for some competition rifles I was making. I didn't feel like dropping $1k to get the improved mill to make 100% of the thing myself for just a couple of projects.
(I'm not sure where "traceable" enters into this particular problem's analysis btw).
But if you blow the whistle tomorrow and ban new manufacture, you won't stop the supply, as these firearms are totally trivial to make at home.
(I'm not sure where "traceable" enters into this particular problem's analysis btw).
I was thinking of serial numbers.
I was thinking of serial numbers.
What does the serial number accomplish for you? (I mean, yes, when you get a gun in your possession at a crime scene, you can backtrace it through to the original point-of-sale, but what does that accomplish exactly? How many Bad Guys have they caught from having a gun in-hand and tracing it? )
A letter I have here from the BATF clarifying whether it was necessary to put a serial number or marking on my projects says:
"Additionally, although markings are not required on firearms manufactured for personal use (excluding NFA firearms), owners are recommended to conspicuously place or engrave a serial number and/ or other marks of identification to aid in investigation or recovery by State or local law enforcement officials in the event of a theft or loss of the privately owned firearm."
Firearms manufactured for sale are regulated a bit differently than ones made for personal use.
ToomuchStuff
10-7-17, 9:28am
If it were that easy, wouldn't we be reading about the country being flooded with untraceable homemade firearms? Or are factory made pieces simply cheaper and easier to obtain?
Unfinished, 80% lowers can be ordered and sent to your door. They range in price, in part by Caliber. A rifle caliber (standard 223 or 5.56 round) can be had without looking hard, for $75. If you have never done it before, and don't have anyone that could show you, the jig to finish it (not counting router, drill, bits, etc) is $65.
Where complete lowers that are not finished (you provide the paint/coating), can be had for as low as $19. Finished/coated ones, for as low as $29. Then you have your transfer fee (hunt around, locally $20).
Both of the above, still require a lower parts kit to complete ($29).
For those that stay legal, it can be cheaper to buy the registered one. Felons, or those that want something fancy, or want to say they made it, it costs more.
ToomuchStuff
10-7-17, 9:36am
We should really be talking also about banning pressure cookers.>8)
Or the best idea I have yet, since they are "wondering how he got all those guns in the hotel room", along with the sledge hammer, is to do something that would also potentially speed up your airport trips.
Let us require that all suitcases be clear. Everything displayed, guns, jewelry small items, etc. towards the outside (then smallest clothes to largest), unless you have a concealed carry permit.
The hotel would have seen this, airport security would appreciate this, so would the criminal element as they could watch the bags to see who to attack. Honest people shouldn't care about their unmentionables, or streaked clothing, being on display in public.:welcome:
Realistically, I don't think most mass shooters have the ingenuity to assemble or make an assault weapon. The LV guy was an exception.
Sounds like many pro-gun people don't want changes, or feel that there's just no use to try anything. It's all or nothing.
Sounds like many pro-gun people don't want changes, or feel that there's just no use to try anything. It's all or nothing.
Then you need to listen more carefully.
ToomuchStuff
10-7-17, 11:40am
Realistically, I don't think most mass shooters have the ingenuity to assemble or make an assault weapon. The LV guy was an exception.
You should watch the video's of how to assemble one. With parts kits and being able to buy parts semi complete, one would have to be severely disabled to not be able to build one.
Sounds like many pro-gun people don't want changes, or feel that there's just no use to try anything. It's all or nothing.
We would like real, logical, truly useful suggestions. Try fixing the problem, not the object:
https://byrslf.co/thoughts-on-the-vegas-shooting-14af397cee2c
Fix people!
You should watch the video's of how to assemble one. With parts kits and being able to buy parts semi complete, one would have to be severely disabled to not be able to build one.
I received in the mail just this morning an ad from a parts/ammunition/sporting goods supplier, for 100% AR-15 receivers from a reputable manufacturer for $39. Of course, those are considered firearms, and so must be transferred on your BATF form 4473. As you point out, from there to a fully-assembled and functional firearm is < 1 hour's easy work following a youtube video, probably less if you've done it before.
Also note - AR-15 receivers can be used to built lots of different sorts of firearms. (One of the many reasons the AR-15 platform is popular.) For instance, a single-shot bolt-action firearm can be made with one. Which would present regulatory issues if one adopted the "hey, let's ban things" approach.
You should watch the video's of how to assemble one. With parts kits and being able to buy parts semi complete, one would have to be severely disabled to not be able to build one.
You know, I am a hunter and have a few gun responsible firearm enthusiast friends. One of them has desired an AR-15 for some sort of home defense that I don't quite get, but that's fine. I'm going to forward some of this to him. I was aware of some of the 3D printing options, but I have never previously heard of this, nor has my friend. Are there common gun web sites or publications where this information gets attention, or is it a specialty niche? Nor was I aware of bump stocks and wonder again if you have to get into specialty gun groups to know of them. Although, now everyone in the world knows about them. Our local news said there has been a large wave of bump stock sales, now.
Anyway, I would speculate that if there was a ban on assault weapons, a perspective shooter would be more likely to pick something up on the black market or use what is commonly available. But maybe everyone in the gun world knows all of this, and I'm wrong.
ToomuchStuff
10-7-17, 3:05pm
The AR platform as a home defense weapon, has pro's and con's just like any weapon. I have seen a few of them (it is the personal defense weapon of the US military, verses a pistol, because it can be used at short and long ranges) (it can be troublesome due to its size, but that is adaptable for rifle or pistol use)
The 3d printing stuff, was in the news big time a few years back, when the first 3d printed pistol, was created. The only metal needed was a nail, for a firing pin. I am sure devises evolved, but I haven't looked or kept up with 3d printing. (interest verses usefulness, verses cost/payback) When 3d printers get cheap and can print inexpensively with metal or plastic (make your own tools, vehicles, etc), a lot of jobs will be going away. Old expired patents, and searching the patent databases, will find people making tools, and other things based on that data.
The gun from the movie In the Line of Fire, is basically a 3d printed design.
As to where one gets this information, it is the same source of the problems.... people.
There are gun forums, both brand specific and type specific. Youtube, Ebay, your neighborhood gun store and shooting ranges. All you need is a want to learn and open mind/ear.
If you want to do violence, people tend to listen to those bits of info they think they need. Some bad guys get stopped because of that and spouting off their ideas/plans, etc. and someone notices (hey something isn't right with this person), others keep to themselves and are quiet, and try to buy in little quantities to not get attention (friends relative whose family owns the hardware store Ted K shopped at).
Information and tools are only dangerous if the user chooses to use them in that manner.
Anyone else remember the radioactive boyscout?
Teacher Terry
10-8-17, 12:30pm
Australia got serious about gun control after a 1996 mass shooting. We can too if we want too. People can still hunt, etc. I know Australia is surrounded with water so there borders are easier to control. They bought many of the guns from citizens. Former casino workers admit that they overlook odd behavior by high rollers because they don't want to lose their business. We can either work to solve the problem or do nothing as more innocent people are slaughtered.
I hear about these buy backs, but what do they pay. I have some guns that are worth several thousand each. Or is this really just confiscation where the government pays penny on the dollar?
The buybacks are voluntary. The benefit is not financial but if you have a gun illegally you can turn it in no questions asked.
Edited to add: I was thinking of buyback programs in the U.S. They are voluntary.
Williamsmith
10-8-17, 3:48pm
Australia got serious about gun control after a 1996 mass shooting. We can too if we want too. People can still hunt, etc. I know Australia is surrounded with water so there borders are easier to control. They bought many of the guns from citizens. Former casino workers admit that they overlook odd behavior by high rollers because they don't want to lose their business. We can either work to solve the problem or do nothing as more innocent people are slaughtered.
Im sure your heart is in the right place but I would point out:
Australia does not have a Bill of Rights. The gun “buy back” program was a confiscation that was obligatory and enforced rather ironically by threat of a pointed gun. Australian citizens must prove they need a gun and self defense is not evidence of that need. If you are a woman who is being threatened by an ex and stalked, you can’t get a gun.
In America, most gun owners do so for self defense. Australia confiscated and destroyed 1/5 of all guns in the country. If America did this they would have to take and destroy up to 100 million guns from millions of citizens whose primary reason for owning them in the first place is to prevent a tyrannical government from confiscating them. How’s that going to end? Don’t forget about deplorables and bitter clingers. They won’t be driving to collection stations to turn over their guns and a house to house beat down on doors guarantees bloodshed.
Australia does not have a history that includes armed revolution to gain independence from England. England gave them their independence. Applying Australia’s solution to mass murder to the United States would end up in mass civil unrest and revolution.
As soon as everybody else in this country is disarmed.......I’ll give up all mine. Well, the ones they find.
Unfortunately, I gave most of mine away, and then there was the boating accident.
Williamsmith
10-8-17, 3:54pm
Double post
They won’t be driving to collection stations to turn over their guns and a house to house beat down on doors guarantees bloodshed.
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you'd be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur -- what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
Teacher Terry
10-8-17, 4:05pm
I am not suggesting that we need to do exactly as Australia did. I agree with people having guns for self-defense and to hunt, etc. Our founding fathers could have never envisioned that our guns could kill hundreds of people in minutes. WE need to come up with a reasonable plan to keep these types of guns out of the ordinary citizens hands. Just because you can build one of these yourself as Bae says does not mean we throw up our hands and do nothing. Many people are too lazy or inept to build one. WE as a country need to come together and look at reasonable solutions to this huge problem and not by overreacting or doing nothing. There must be a better middle ground.
There must be a better middle ground.
Every time this comes up though, the discussion isn't about "the middle ground". It's about taking away things.
Teacher Terry
10-8-17, 4:08pm
Well then that needs to change.
If America did this they would have to take and destroy up to 100 million guns from millions of citizens whose primary reason for owning them in the first place is to prevent a tyrannical government from confiscating them.
So the primary reason millions of people own guns is to prevent the government from confiscating those same guns? That sounds a little circular to me.
People own guns for all kinds of reasons, from the eminently practical to the what's-he-compensating-for pathetic. My view is that the government must justify its actions to the citizens, and not the other way around. Americans shouldn't need to provide a reason for wanting a gun any more than they need to provide a reason for opting out of public school or wearing white after Labor Day. I don't think it matters that the founders didn't foresee automatic weapons any more than the First Amendment is invalid because they didn't foresee the internet.
Williamsmith
10-9-17, 9:45am
So the primary reason millions of people own guns is to prevent the government from confiscating those same guns? That sounds a little circular to me.
People own guns for all kinds of reasons, from the eminently practical to the what's-he-compensating-for pathetic. My view is that the government must justify its actions to the citizens, and not the other way around. Americans shouldn't need to provide a reason for wanting a gun any more than they need to provide a reason for opting out of public school or wearing white after Labor Day. I don't think it matters that the founders didn't foresee automatic weapons any more than the First Amendment is invalid because they didn't foresee the internet.
Lets realize that it is not the only reason and it’s not even the reason you will get when you ask most gun owners. Most gun owners would like to be thought of as either sportsmen or hobbyists or home and self defense tacticians. Although, the latter is a reason many don’t prepare enough for. But if you ask every gun owner whether they thought owning a gun was a foundational prerequisite to protection against a tyrannical government....many might gaze in either direction then behind them and nod their head in agreement and the rest would boldly declare it.
That your view requires the government to justify its actions to its citizens reflects the spirit of the Bill of Rights and specifically on guns..,the 2nd Amendment. In the example of Australia, the exact opposite is true. The government insists that the citizens justify their actions.
In America, use of the “ban” word requires justification by our government. In the case of plastic accessories which turbo charge semi automatic weapons.....we will probably tolerate a reversal of Obama’s blessing on the use of them as a sort of peace offering toward the left. Most gun owners find no use for them anyway. It won’t make the nation a safer place by any measurable difference.
What might be helpful is if the conversation would focus on reducing gun violence in urban places, finding ways to prevent accidental shootings and funding mental health treatment in proportion to the severe problems that cause suicide by firearm. Las Vegas was horrendous, but a drop in the bucket compared to the day to day slaughter Americans participate in.
But if you ask every gun owner whether they thought owning a gun was a foundational prerequisite to protection against a tyrannical government....many might gaze in either direction then behind them and nod their head in agreement and the rest would boldly declare it.
All I could say in response to them would be "good luck with that."
What might be helpful is if the conversation would focus on reducing gun violence in urban places, finding ways to prevent accidental shootings and funding mental health treatment in proportion to the severe problems that cause suicide by firearm. Las Vegas was horrendous, but a drop in the bucket compared to the day to day slaughter Americans participate in.
But we won't do that. We won't do it because that would single out people who by birth or happenstance find themselves in the cultural abyss where disrespect is a capital offense, and the willingness to commit violence is a coming of age rite. It's easier to blame the tools than the actor.
ApatheticNoMore
10-9-17, 11:09am
All I could say in response to them would be "good luck with that."
+1 people with less delusional beliefs than that are talking to themselves on street corners.
Besides who even knows what the belief is, it seems to be some kind of crazy, like the government is good up until bam one day it turns and become tyrannical. Because if it really is skepticism toward the government and "we might need to fight it some day" at least the consistent thing is to defund the military etc. as much as possible so as to weaken the government for when you have to fight it (the military is what anyone would be directly fighting). I'm not saying it makes sense even then, I'm just saying if there was any consistency in reasoning at all.
But we won't do that. We won't do it because that would single out people who by birth or happenstance find themselves in the cultural abyss where disrespect is a capital offense, and the willingness to commit violence is a coming of age rite. It's easier to blame the tools than the actor.
no we won't do it because we don't want to spend the money. But look other than programs helping families with children with not perpetrating violence there, I think there would be something badly twisted in some idea of getting everyone mental healthcare when people still lack basic physical healthcare. A question of wow: our priorities, they don't make a lot of sense ...
The buybacks are voluntary. The benefit is not financial but if you have a gun illegally you can turn it in no questions asked.
Edited to add: I was thinking of buyback programs in the U.S. They are voluntary.
I had an older hunting single shot shotgun that was damaged to the point of little or no commercial value. Rather than discard it into the trash, I called the local police who said I could turn it into their station. It was not a pleasant experience. Although I wasn't treated quite like a criminal, there were obvious suspicions and it was not a comfortable experience. I had to answer a number of questions, show my ID which was photocopied, and have a policeman escort me to my car to retrieve the weapon. I do understand why it would not be acceptable to bring a weapon into the station. It was pretty much like they had never had something like that happen.
ToomuchStuff
10-10-17, 1:36am
I had an older hunting single shot shotgun that was damaged to the point of little or no commercial value. Rather than discard it into the trash, I called the local police who said I could turn it into their station. It was not a pleasant experience. Although I wasn't treated quite like a criminal, there were obvious suspicions and it was not a comfortable experience. I had to answer a number of questions, show my ID which was photocopied, and have a policeman escort me to my car to retrieve the weapon. I do understand why it would not be acceptable to bring a weapon into the station. It was pretty much like they had never had something like that happen.
I shouldn't be on here now. Not going to be around much this week (emergency situation, causing me to be gone before 8am and home just before midnight).
There was a no questions asked turn in here, when they also did a hazzardous materials day.
Two people turned in guns. Most of the cops already knew those two people and they still asked questions.
I was one of them, with a firearm that had been dug up out of the yard, that I knew the history of (found part with axe marks on it, didn't find the other part). It's story involved being "empty" and going off when being cleaned, missing someone who lost a sibling, in the military, by a gun that was "empty" and was ordered to clean it, and thrown it.
In truth, they are not anonymous.
Either my memory failed me or I never paid enough attention, because I just looked up Boston's buyback program. It is not no questions asked, but no charges filed for illegal possession of a firearm.
It was hard reading about the reasons for it, like a 9 year old murder victim.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/oct/07/spokane-police-will-add-suppressors-to-rifles-citi/#/0
This raises a question for me. The speed of sound at ground level is what, 1100 feet/second or so? Wouldn't your average bullet travel fast enough to create its own little sonic boom regardless of how efficiently the suppressor worked? Is it safe for me to assume that those little "pfft, pfft" sounds you hear in spy movies is Hollywood BS? Sort of like the "boom" exploding spaceships make in a vacuum?
This raises a question for me. The speed of sound at ground level is what, 1100 feet/second or so? Wouldn't your average bullet travel fast enough to create its own little sonic boom regardless of how efficiently the suppressor worked? Is it safe for me to assume that those little "pfft, pfft" sounds you hear in spy movies is Hollywood BS? Sort of like the "boom" exploding spaceships make in a vacuum?
Correct.
Suppressors do a great job of protecting the shooter's hearing, and the hearing of nearby bystanders from the muzzle blast of the ignited powder. They don't do the James Bond phffft thing.
Correct.
Suppressors do a great job of protecting the shooter's hearing, and the hearing of nearby bystanders from the muzzle blast of the ignited powder. They don't do the James Bond phffft thing.
Thanks. I'll remember that next time I infiltrate a SPECTRE facility.
Thanks. I'll remember that next time I infiltrate a SPECTRE facility.
I can recommend some equipment for that which uses subsonic ammunition and a single-shot action in the firearm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine
I have a shuetzen that shoots subsonic 22 shorts that's pretty quiet.
ToomuchStuff
10-12-17, 2:14pm
Interesting article yesterday that I found out about today:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/all-opinions-are-local/wp/2017/10/11/what-virginias-candidates-for-governor-are-getting-wrong-about-gun-control/?utm_term=.82f6562e7abf
Then I saw one (was it through here? catching up for the week), about how a police dept. is issuing suppressors to all the police rifles, to save them money on workers comp, as well as lawsuits that happen when one can't hear needed info over the sound of their gunfire, or when civilians get their ears injured because of events around them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/15/us/las-vegas-shooting-civilian-first-aid.html
Williamsmith
10-17-17, 3:46pm
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3999
Pretty vague.
ToomuchStuff
10-17-17, 9:52pm
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3999
Pretty vague.
By the title, it already sounds contradicting.
Williamsmith
10-18-17, 8:37am
It is interesting that the first response to this politically is to target “rate of fire” mechanisms. That’s an amorphous ...easily massaged criterion. Note they don’t specifically go after the bump stock or even “slide fire” by name. That has an ominous feeling to it.
What could be done to study the process by which the person brings themselves to “dehumanize” enough to attack crowds of people?
Are the protectionists purposely keeping the discussion out of the media because I thought there would be an uproar surpassing that of Sandy Hook?
It is interesting that the first response to this politically is to target “rate of fire” mechanisms. That’s an amorphous ...easily massaged criterion.
That seems an odd approach, as I can easily change the "rate of fire" of a firearm by using different ammunition, changing springs, muzzle brakes, changing the size of gas ports, and so on. (Indeed, some firearms I own have adjustable gas ports so that you can adapt the firearm to different ammunition.) And I'm not aware that firearms have a legally-specified "rate of fire" at manufacture or design time.
Williamsmith
10-18-17, 3:22pm
Having been in the position of enforcement of some rather questionable laws......as in the necessity of it for public safety.....I am quite sure this type of generality will result in the criminalization of otherwise law abiding difference making citizens.
Do we really want say an enforcement officer carrying around a trigger pull measuring device which will result in a five or ten year felony sentence because the interpretation says x amount of trigger pull equals a violation of the “rate of fire” restrictions?
Id really prefer law makers be honest and just admit they want to repeal the 2nd amendment and confiscate all citizen firearms. Well, a few already have.
On the day of the Mandalay shooting .....millions of Americans possessed the same kinds of firearms and did nothing evil with them. So why should we punish them? McVeigh killed 168 and injured over 680 with a rental truck in just one incident. Wouldn’t it make just as much sense to mandate criminal history checks on all renters of moving trucks?
Do we want to live in a country where every hotel you check into has to search your bags, go through a metal detector and ban possession of firearms?
Do we want to live in a country where every hotel you check into has to search your bags, go through a metal detector and ban possession of firearms?
I don't think I'd stay in such a hotel.
ToomuchStuff
10-19-17, 3:10am
That seems an odd approach, as I can easily change the "rate of fire" of a firearm by using different ammunition, changing springs, muzzle brakes, changing the size of gas ports, and so on. (Indeed, some firearms I own have adjustable gas ports so that you can adapt the firearm to different ammunition.) And I'm not aware that firearms have a legally-specified "rate of fire" at manufacture or design time.
Actually, there is a rate of fire at manufacture/design time. It is called as fast as you can pull the trigger and all semi automatic firearms have that.
So at that rate, there are still questions and potentially people themselves are illegal.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/3d-printing-doubles-strength-stainless-steel
Looks like A.E. van Vogt’s Weapons Shops Of Isher are about to open up.
flowerseverywhere
11-1-17, 7:46am
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/3d-printing-doubles-strength-stainless-steel
Looks like A.E. van Vogt’s Weapons Shops Of Isher are about to open up.
what an interesting article. It could change things. Some for the greater good of society, some for the worse for sure. As machines do more and more in manufacturing what will working people work at? Now I have to read the book.
ToomuchStuff
11-1-17, 9:05am
If the truck didn't have a bumper, would that have killed less people. My lord, what would have happened yesterday, if that driver had a better muffler?
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/3d-printing-doubles-strength-stainless-steel
Looks like A.E. van Vogt’s Weapons Shops Of Isher are about to open up.
Pretty soon you'll be able to splice genes in your garage and manufacture machine parts in your basement.
I looked into making a AR-15 clone with the 80% receiver, but unless your going to make several the cost of the jigs drive the price to high.
And I’m looking forward to the 3-d printers to start churning out quality parts. Some of the cost of airplane parts are just ridiculous. But the faa does permit owner produced parts if the quality is the same.
Williamsmith
11-1-17, 11:33am
I looked into making a AR-15 clone with the 80% receiver, but unless your going to make several the cost of the jigs drive the price to high.
And I’m looking forward to the 3-d printers to start churning out quality parts. Some of the cost of airplane parts are just ridiculous. But the faa does permit owner produced parts if the quality is the same.
You can now purchase an AR-15 clone for $450. Assembling a better than mil-spec one from parts off the web....$700. Find several people to share the cost of jigging.......makes it quite reasonable. I suspect ammunition to become assailed as part of a plan to make exercising your 2nd amendment right cost prohibitive. At 30 cents per round .....pulling the trigger on a 30 round mag costs $9. Imagine if taxes and license fees tripled that cost.
Teacher Terry
11-1-17, 5:16pm
One aftermath of this shooting is all the people that now have huge hospital bills they can't pay. Many can't work because of either physical or mental health issues related to the shooting. One woman in her 50's had a successful small business she ran and now is paralyzed from her neck down in rehab. Who is going to run her business and once home she will need round the clock aides, etc. Her home will need adaptations or she will have to go to a nursing home. Of course no insurance will pay for any of this. Many of the living who survived the shooting have had their lives ruined.
Williamsmith
11-1-17, 5:57pm
One aftermath of this shooting is all the people that now have huge hospital bills they can't pay. Many can't work because of either physical or mental health issues related to the shooting. One woman in her 50's had a successful small business she ran and now is paralyzed from her neck down in rehab. Who is going to run her business and once home she will need round the clock aides, etc. Her home will need adaptations or she will have to go to a nursing home. Of course no insurance will pay for any of this. Many of the living who survived the shooting have had their lives ruined.
i hope and believe that there are many in the medical profession and wealthy individuals who are taking notice of this tradegy and can see where they might make a financial difference for someone. I wish the media would focus on good stories. I am sure if Charles Kuralt we’re still alive he could find something inspiring to tell about.
ToomuchStuff
11-2-17, 11:15am
One aftermath of this shooting is all the people that now have huge hospital bills they can't pay. Many can't work because of either physical or mental health issues related to the shooting. One woman in her 50's had a successful small business she ran and now is paralyzed from her neck down in rehab. Who is going to run her business and once home she will need round the clock aides, etc. Her home will need adaptations or she will have to go to a nursing home. Of course no insurance will pay for any of this. Many of the living who survived the shooting have had their lives ruined.
I would expect since this shooter had assets, that the victims have a lawyer file against the shooters estate.
As a business owner, you don't know if your going to be shot during a robbery, or injured in a car accident, or fall and break a leg on the way to work. That is why owners take disability insurance.
Ruined is a state of mind, DAMHIK. Changes in life happen and one can't stop that. All they can do is deal with whatever happens in life and change their own attitudes.
Not sure about the huge hospital bills, as isn't everybody covered, by some law?>8)
Teacher Terry
11-2-17, 1:11pm
Ruined is hardly a state of mind when you are paralyzed from the neck down, are wearing diapers, can't feed yourself or wipe you own nose.
ToomuchStuff
11-2-17, 1:37pm
Ruined is hardly a state of mind when you are paralyzed from the neck down, are wearing diapers, can't feed yourself or wipe you own nose.
Changed, or ruined. Attitude is everything. Sally Firestone is a friend of my family, and former coworker of one of my parents. I remember looking down at the bodies that had been removed:
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article748398.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpxZFfa1oe4
Attitude is THE thing you have and control.
dado potato
11-2-17, 1:41pm
Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the assessment that something else is more important than the fear. -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt
I wonder who pays for the medical costs of all these crime victims?
http://www.freep.com/story/news/2017/09/25/detroit-crime-violence/700443001/
Teacher Terry
11-2-17, 2:04pm
TMS: I have spent my career working with people with disabilities and I know how important attitude is in life and recovery. Some people are able to make the most of the situation and move on. However, it is devastating when someone acquires a severe disability both personally and financially. Few marriages survive it either. I know the realities of life for a quadriplegic and many people really have no clue about how it affects these people's daily lives. Yes the only thing you can control is your attitude but if you have not worked with people that acquired severe disabilities it is difficult to understand the complexities of the situation. When someone is born with a severe disability this is the only way of living they know so it is easier in many ways.
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